Grief, university, rules and consequences, raising boys, chores and phones. Community Catch Up

SPEAKER_02 0:02

Hello and welcome to the Teenagers Untangled Community Hug where we come together and look at some of the issues you've raised. Now, after a long break, here's Susie. Woohoo! First time on the community catch up. I like taking a pause each week to really think about what we're doing because I think parenting and living takes constant adjustment and it's no bad thing to stop and reflect. All of the religions do this, and I think it's super healthy, much needed thing to do. So here we are. Right, Susie, what we we often do nuggets. Do you have a nugget for us?

SPEAKER_00 0:34

I do. Um so sadly, and you'd said life is you know up ups and downs, isn't it? Um and stopping to reflect, that's very appropriate. Um the last couple of months we've had a couple of losses, or uh not losses, I think that's a weird term, isn't it? You don't lose somebody. No. We've had a couple of deaths um in our family. One of them, a pet, a very, very loved pet, totally unexpected, um, our dog. And the other one is my dad. Um and that's that's been really hard. Uh very, very hard. And the pet was first, we were on holiday, um, and everybody was absolutely guarted. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

And you didn't get the chance to say goodbye.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

No, no, we didn't. We didn't. We you know, um and um yeah, and uh my dad, he had a stroke years ago, so we kind of had six bonus years with him. And I thought I'd been saying goodbye to him for for years, thinking, oh, he's kind of slowly fading in the last six months, really. But you don't. You don't, and and it's really, really sad, and it's organic and it's life and all of that. But the point of bringing that up here on this platform is is you know, the kids have been amazing. They're really sad on both of them, they're very different, different griefs. Um, and they are very different in it. And I just think they've been extraordinary. Um, they deal with it very differently. There's been a lot of crying and a lot of reflection and a lot of funny stories. Um, and you know, some of them cry really easily, and it's a very sort of feels like a organic, cathartic process, and some of them don't. Some of them, one, you know, one gets annoyed with the dog, you know, angry, and that which is also a completely normal response. And it's just this idea of, you know, I'm also grieving, you know, holding that space. Um, it's been really beautiful and really hard. And life goes on, doesn't it? It's like of course that's the most important thing at the time, but I've got two of them who are in their final year of school. They've got, you know, they want to go to university, they've got applications to make, they've got coursework to finish, they've got um open days to go to if they want to go to these places, and and life goes on. Like nobody just stops and goes, Oh, you can have a month to get over this. Um so it's it's it's like life on funny turbo, but also it's also slowed down in a weird way.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

Um but just sharing that, it's um Yeah, and I absolutely get that because uh, you know, when I my parents are both uh gone now, and I e you know even though I had a really difficult relationship with my mother when she finally died, it was it's a real it's a real loss. It is a loss. And it's a big change in your life. And um I'm very sorry that that's you've been through that experience. That's really tough. And I think the kids again, we've done an episode on grief. So if you are going through any of this, then please dig out that episode. I'll put the the link in the notes. But um I think it's not until you actually experience it that you have a real understanding of the 100% it can have.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

100% and and also the concept for the for the kids, you know, that it's a obviously a huge subject, and I think as a culture we're not really very good at. Oh, we hope it we don't want to go. And the subject of death, what happens, you know, of course, nobody obviously nobody knows, and there are lots of ideas and theories. Um and having those conversations with our kids, um you know, oh, and by the way, we've got an own university open day tomorrow. Um, but let's have a you know, it's it's it's all of it. And life carries on while you have to go through the process. Oh, actually, what you know, what what do you think happens? I don't know. Um but you know, it it it that also passes as well. It gets less raw, and then you then suddenly you're like, oh, we're back in every day.

SPEAKER_02 4:17

And I think for kids when they so my daughter had a year group where one of the boys died by suicide, and I think that was quite a blow for them all because it was also this sense that they're still getting up and going into school, they're still sitting their exams, and then he's not there. Yes. And I think that's really quite a hard concept for them to take on board.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah, that's horrific. That is really challenging. And I think I mean that's that's I mean, the things we've experienced are nothing like that. Yeah, but they're all different. They're all different. And I think the idea of of shock and it being a sort of an organic thing is is very different experience. So the dog, when our dog died, it was shocking. We we didn't expect it, she was really young. When my dad died, it was not unexpected, it happened really quickly, and that was quite shocking. But there's a sort of sense afterwards of okay, that was life is meant to do that. Yeah, um, that's a very different experience. Yeah, circle of life. Circle of life, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Well, for me, I would like to talk about um my daughter finally going to university.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah, woo woo.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

And you know, I see my older bonus daughters going off and um going through that with them, but uh from afar, really, not the same. And it made me very I I didn't think I was going to be quite so wistful leading up to it, and I did feel a bit kind of oh, and I didn't I didn't expect that because I'm quite pragmatic, I'm quite a doer, and I get on with things, and so I totally understand how parents feel when they wave their child off, you know, when they're they're they're leaving. And it's very interesting because there have been an awful lot of debates on social media about the parents who stay there, decorate the kids' rooms, you know, the ones who keep going back every weekend and changing their bed linen for them and people going, Oh, god, this is ridiculous. And I find it fascinating because as we were taking my daughter, uh, the car was absolutely full. Literally, we had flowers, we had every, you know, all the plants and things, we had loads of stuff. And it reminded me of when I went to university, and I basically went across, I went on a train and then um the London Underground, and then another train carrying a very large suitcase with no wheels because they didn't have wheels at that time and a 75-litre backpack with my entire possessions in it. And then I used to have to ask other people's parents to take stuff home for me. I'd like separate it up and say, Could you please take this home for me? Because it didn't occur to me that anybody would actually take their kids to university, it just wasn't in my narrative. And I don't think my parents were just uh, you know, they we had our issues, and I don't think they were the the best parents, but I think we have to put these things into context, and it was a different era. And my parents were really from the boomer generation. My mother actually went through the war, she was, I think, six when the war started, and she was evacuated, you know, and these people were very fuss and nonsense. It's a it's a saying in England, it's just like you just get on with it, and and then the next generation. So my friends' parents were kind of sixties, seventies parents who were all about going out and having fun. And and I just think quite often I see a narrative of people blaming their parents for things and being frustrated that they were brought up in a certain way. I was very much a latchkey kid, and and parents now trying to break the cycle. And I think there's a difference between real neglect and parents not caring, which I experienced some of, and a generational thing. Absolutely. I totally agree with that. Don't you? And I just think that I worry that there's an element of kids nowadays looking at parents and judging parents through a lens where parents are doing everything. Yeah. Some parents are doing everything, and then them thinking, Oh, my parents don't match up and they're not good enough, or the parents thinking I need to be doing everything, when really actually it's good for kids to have to sort of fend for themselves to an extent that you don't have to do all of this at all.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

No, it's really interesting. I think that's a really interesting concept because it it you have to judge it within the context, it is, don't you? Like I had I actually had this conversation with my mum a couple of days ago. Um, because I am doing a few university open days with and I have twins, obviously. Which didn't exist when we were no, no, and you know, and it's quite a lot because obviously I'm on my own with them, and there are twins. Normally it's one kid and two bears. Yeah, yeah. So we can't go to them all, and then that's also fine. Um But um, you know, she was sort of implying that you know people were we didn't have that in those days, and people just dropped off, and la da la. And and she's right, you know, I think an overfussiness is is not helpful. It makes, you know, we know that we've talked about that before. It makes them not independent. They need to they need to feel that. Ah, I'm on my own before you, you know, you can you can pull your own confidence out of the bag, can't you? That's how you get confidence, is is getting through that stuff. Um, but it's also really different, like you know, universities we pay for them now, and so it's completely different. So of course, you know, it's really reasonable for parents to want to go and see the place that they're forking tons out for, or that the you know the kids they're gonna need extra money for. I mean, it's re it's totally different. I remember I went to music college and I I had to do an audition, which you still have to do. Um I went up to Manchester and it was a big old train rider, slept on my friend's floor the night before who I knew in the year above. I think we went to the bar, got up, did my audition, dragged myself to the train station, got home, you know. Oh, how how'd it go? Oh, it's all right, you know. Yeah, it was totally different, and we can't judge it in the same time zone. Like it's it's just different. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

And I think we just need to give ourselves the pass on the back if our kids are even doing okay. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 10:01

And if you have a you know, if you have a feeling need to go and you know help your kid out, maybe that maybe that's really nice for that kid for the first couple of weeks. Maybe they need that support and then you back off. Like, we're so judgy, aren't we?

SPEAKER_02 10:12

We are judgy. And I've said to my daughter, anytime it gets too much because it's really full on where she is, really, really full on. I've just said just come home. And she's like, I haven't got time to come home. So yeah, it's really and and also I if you're telling yourself, oh, I need to make sure my child's learnt how to cook, yeah, that may not be the key skill they need. It may be that actually what they need is they need to know how to go out and make friends with people from different areas. So that's the thing I focused on is like how do you make sure you're not just you just don't just stick with the group you first meet, that you actually learn how to actually meet lots of different people from different areas and go and join the social groups and ensure that you just feel like you belong there because belonging and mattering is I think what really matters, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah, it does definitely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

So it's a really congratulations to her. That's exciting. It's yeah, I think it's hard work. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it definitely is. That's what she wants. Um, right, so let's go on to talking about a letter. Email. They're not letters anymore, are they? That's ridiculous. No, nobody does that. Nobody does that. Um, first of all, I'd like to say how awesome your podcast is. Wow, I can't believe I'm just discovering it. I sure could have used it four years ago, probably. I've listened to about 15 episodes so far. Well done. Well, that's good in itself, right? So enlightening. My son is 15 years old, creeping up to 16. The struggle has been real. I've already incorporated some of the things I've learned from your show, and to my surprise, I have seen light at the end of the tunnel. Whoop-whoop. Thank you so much. Uh, I've still got lots to learn. So, questions. How do I get my son to do the dishes correctly? Oh. And if he doesn't, what would be a good example of discipline without it being overcome because he read Susie's face? I have gone over with him on how to do them correctly and what I expect. It has been a four-year battle with him, grounding him, taking electronics away and so on. He doesn't seem to care. He's very monotone with me about 90% of the time, as if he can't stand me. Should we just deal with that first thing?

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Yeah, I don't really know what to say. Um I mean, does she mean that he's not doing them at all or that she doesn't there's like bits of food left on them afterwards? I don't know. She didn't make it clear.

SPEAKER_02 12:23

We have actually uh done an episode on rules and consequences. So it's actually a really we don't have all that information. So it's almost impossible for anyone to give one person full advice without really understanding their family situation because as we've said before, it's a haggle. Everything's a haggle. And um so the most important thing I think is to give you the information and you need to listen to the information and then make decisions based on your own values and what works for you.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

So we have got uh an episode on boundaries. We also I've written a quite extensive blog on what's what is going on when boundaries and consequences don't work, and it's very tightly related to this is what your expectation is, but you've both agreed that this is a reasonable thing to expect, and then there's a a consequence that's very short and that they can earn their thing back very quickly after that. So that right at the very start of it needs to be that you both agree that this is an important thing. So the question is why? Why is this important to you? Why is this important to your son?

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah. Because we have, like we've discussed about totally agree with that. We have there are lots of options every single day, aren't they, to to to to enforce or to suggest or to you know to inspire if you want to do that way. Um and it's what what it really matters, pick your battles, you know, if it's really important, if the dishes are really important, then and you're willing to die on a hill for it, then then an agreement needs to be made, and you know, and and he doesn't sound like he's on board at all. Doesn't sound like yeah, uh but if that is really important then then that needs to be understood. Um or maybe it isn't so important, and then you know, pick pick a different battle. Um it has to be tied to yeah, like you said, it has to be tied to what what really is important.

SPEAKER_02 14:17

Yeah, what like Diana Hill for that one. Yes, exactly. And it's really interesting, isn't it? Because I know uh I I fall into these traps at times where you you want you want to do the best with your child. You want your child to have good manners, you want them to know how to do things competently, and that's slightly different from well, it is quite different from being on their back. And I think it's really important if you listen to all the experts, and again, there are lots of episodes that cover these things, that we acknowledge the things they're doing well, yeah, and we spend much less time looking at anything they're doing wrong because the skills they're having to learn, along with having to learn how to socialise, mentalise, understand that other people are feeling and thinking things, they're having to do all this work at school, it's it's actually really, really complicated when you're a teenager trying to juggle everything. If what they get from us all the time is picking out little things that we think are important, but they don't think are important, the takeaway will be they don't like me. My parent doesn't like me.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Well they don't get me.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

They don't get me, they don't like me, they don't love me. They will infer from that all sorts of things that maybe you don't mean to project. Um, and there was a brilliant that there was a brilliant judge that I cited in my blog about this, and she deals with a lot of really difficult people, and she said the reason she does well in the role that she has is because she starts with respect for who whatever it is they've done, she starts off treating them with respect and saying, you know, I'd like to hear your side of things. I'd like to understand where you're coming from. And I think that really, really helps with our teens as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

So in any discussion, you can ask your teen, oh notice, you know, I've asked you to do that and you're not doing it. Um tell me about it. Yeah why? Well, why why do you not why why is that not important to you? What's it what is you know, and have a discussion. Ah, no, now that makes sense. Okay, well, it either then okay, then maybe we can change those rules because it's maybe not so important, or well, actually, I hear you, I hear that it's not important to you, and it's really important to you, to me, and I really want you to do this. You don't have to agree with me, but actually this is really important to me. I'd really like you on board on this, and then work go from there.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

So also Dr. David Jaeger in his book 10 to 25 talks about the fMRI scans they've been doing on teenagers, and I and I love the way he talks about it because he says, what happens is they've they've actually done experiments where the child has lain in a scanner and they've got the mother to say things to the child like, what I don't like about you, or what I don't like about what you're doing, or whatever. Yeah, any any of the nagging things that we will come out with, and they watch what happens to the brain. And the amygdala lights up like a Christmas tree. So this is the kind of fight or flight angry bit, the chimp. And the prefrontal cortex, which is where all the planning and like, oh yeah, no, you're making a really good point there. Yeah, dead. Dies, nothing, nothing's going on there. So when we're trying to tell, we're trying to say, by the way, you haven't it's gone. They've they've switched off, they're not even listening. Yeah, so it does so interesting, yeah. Yes, I love that point. And I also think there's an interesting thing about dealing with boys that it comes from that episode as well. And actually, it's it I think it goes for all teenagers, but they become absolutely focused on status and respect from the age of 10 on. And understanding that status and respect is the most important thing to them means that if you then treat them so that you feel they feel that you think they have status and respect within your family unit, will play into what they want and need. And what I felt I actually asked them about this, which was in experiments they've done where they had um they tested testosterone on these people before, boys and girls. And what they did was they put more testosterone in to kids who had lower testosterone and watch what that what happened. And the increase in testosterone made them more compliant when they were treated with status and respect. Oh, that makes sense. Right? Yeah, I've got two boys, that makes sense. Yes, isn't that interesting? So actually, it's the opposite of what a lot of people think in terms of narratives of boys that they are, you know, the testosterone makes them more feisty and whatever. No, if you if you actually lean into that, you can get so much more out of them. And not in a kind of you know, we're not talking about trying to get stuff out of them, we're talking about communication and connection.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Giving them the respect they deserve as human beings.

SPEAKER_02 18:49

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and when it comes to chores, I really like to talk to my kids in terms of being in a team. Very, very much focused on that language now. And I I've only learnt that as I've gone along. And so I always say, Oh, this is what we've done. What are you doing for the team? And I give them the chance to choose. And I have come up with the most amazing thing recently, absolute genius, got ChatGPT, and I fed into it every single thing I do routinely in the house that could be done by anybody else and is part of running the house. And I said to ChatGPT, you need to create a PDF of this with an with a space next to every single one of these tasks where people can write their name.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

And then a box where you can tick it. Amazing. And then I and then at the top, I'm writing Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and I put it out. And then the great thing about it is I've showed it to everyone in the house and I said, So fill in what you do. Yeah. And nobody wants to be shamed by having not having their name on the list. Okay. So actually, everybody is stepping up. Because number one, it makes tasks visible that weren't visible before. Yeah. Because I think often people don't, they just don't notice stuff's going on around them. They notice when it's not done, but they don't notice it. Exactly. So number one, it actually shows these are the things that go on around you all the time. What can you do? And also it gives them a chance to choose. So my bonus daughter's living with us at the moment, she's been amazing. She's been walking the dogs every day. She's been emptying the dishwashers and right. So it's it but it means that they know what I've done then is handed the handed the opportunity over to them. Yeah. And then I can say to them, Oh, that's great. Fantastic work for the team. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Not thank you for helping me. No, no, but uh no, no, no, that's important, isn't it? Yes. Actually, my my youngest boy the other day a while back said, Um, Mum, I think I should do more chores around the house. And I was like, Yeah, I I actually nearly fell over. What? Well, I mean that you would have to do some would be good, yeah. But he's like, I don't I don't think I do enough. And I went, Oh, I love. I mean, he's he's got loads of loads of ideas. I mean, I love him to pieces, and he's got loads of brilliant ideas. The actual doing is is sort of step two, isn't it? So later that day, he was lying on the on the we have this broken sofa in the kitchen, he's lying on his phone while I was making dinner. And I went, Well, how about now? And he went, Yeah, yeah, maybe later.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

See, that's the thing, because they want to be able to do it in their time. And again, that's why it really works if you have the sheet out, because you can and I've said to all them also, and even my younger daughter has come on board with this, where I just say, if you can do it in five minutes, just do it. Yes, yeah, that's and so when they walk past a sheet which is out there, very visible, yes, they can see and they can go, well, actually, I'll just do that because that's it. And then I can put it on the list.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

I can put it on the list, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

So it's great. I love that. I might steal that. I like well, no, please steal it. And I'll I'll do an Instagram or something about it. I'll put it on my sub stack. Yes. Have a look at the substack, I'll put it up on there. Yes. Well, it is, because also you can say make it a PDF and then it will make you something that you can print off and keep printing off. And then you can add things after if you think, Oh, I didn't add that.

SPEAKER_01 21:55

Perfect.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Um, so just coming back to what this uh listener said. So she said he's very monotone with me about 90% of the time as if he can't stand me, which is really tragic. And I think many of us have taken wrong turns at times in our parenting. And repair, and you've talked about this before about apologizing, repair is always an option. It's always an option. And I think if we just sit and down and say, you know what? Yeah, I've really wanted to get to do the best for you. And I have learned that actually that's not doing the best for you. And maybe it doesn't feel very nice. How does that feel? I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Yeah. Or just mirroring it back, I I I find it's really, really hard that we don't speak properly. And I kind of imagine that I've said some stuff that has either hurt you or annoyed you, or can we talk about it? Because all kids want to get on with their parents. They really do. They really do. They just don't know how. So us as the adults, we can kind of show the way. Sorry, what have I done to piss you off? Kind of thing. Can we mend this?

SPEAKER_02 22:55

And we need to sit there and listen and not interrupt. If they're saying something and it's very painful, because sometimes it's very painful. We just have to sit there and say, okay, I'm really sorry. I'm so sorry. That's not my intention at all.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Yeah, or even wow, that's a lot of information.

SPEAKER_02 23:11

Can I just have a think about that and get back to you? Yeah. I love that too. I think that's really helpful. Um, so she says, when it comes to school and his friends, he doesn't want to be near me when there's an event going on. I think he's embarrassed. I'm not going to say why, because I don't want to identify the parent. Um, other boys his age will walk into the school next to their parents, but mine won't. Yeah. And there are other parents like me in the community. Um, and their teen sons don't seem to be all bothered by it.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

But I think that's hard, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 23:38

I think this is coming back to, I think this is a parent who absolutely loves their son and is trying to do the best and is just not getting that connection right.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah. And then it becomes uh like that push-pull dynamic that we've talked about lots of times, doesn't it? The more we the more we pull or push, you know, the the more the other one goes the other way because it's too much. Um so it's kind of backing off a bit and and seeing what happens in the space behind and um and talking about it like I can see what's happening here isn't isn't working, and you don't want to walk with me and you know, you have to respect that, don't you? Kind of just run after them and go. Um But I find it painful and I find I'd we I'd really like it to be different, you know. What would it take for it to be different? What's the problem? Why, you know, just unpack it together in, like you say, a really non-judgmental way and be willing to hear maybe some stuff you don't want to hear and and see how that can be integrated. But it's painful, it's hard because we don't but but uh the if we remember that the kid doesn't want it to be like that either. And they absolutely and this mother sounds like she, like you said, adores her kid and it's it's painful.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Yeah, and it's really interesting because I'm going to interview one of the authors of a book called Talk to Your Boys, it's brilliant. It's got all these chapters where it gives you cues of things that you can talk about, and I love that, I think it's really important. Um and uh with this with this parent, I think one thing they could do is uh listen to some of the episodes about what it feels like for a teenage boy. And I think 14, 15, 14 probably is where Niobi Wei talks about the man box hitting them hard and this sense that they have to fit in, and there are so many pressures on them. And I mean, she's a different sex to this child, so that's going to impact on their relationship unless she can reach in and understand him better. So, one thing she could do is she if she listens to some of the episodes, and I'll put again, I'll put the links in. There's Brendan Kriakoski, there's Mike Nicholson, uh, quite a few of these, and just say, you know, I've been listening to this thing. I'm just wondering, is that something you're seeing? Great idea to use. Conversation starter. Have you heard of locks maxing? Is that something you're doing at school? Is it, you know, just so that he can think he then thinks, wow, she's actually tuning into my world. It's not all about what matters to her.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Yeah, that's brilliant advice, I think. And sometimes I think for our kids it's it's a really tiny thing that's that is annoying them or find they're finding challenging. Oh, you're so right. It could just be like, oh, you talk too loudly, or or I don't like your shoes, or it's embarrassing, you know, it's something that's and then they're trying just so busy trying to avoid that that they kind of move away from you completely. It could be something really simple.

SPEAKER_02 26:20

Yeah. It was my parents' car actually. Oh my goodness, we had the most awful car. It had it actually was rusting and it was falling apart, and oh, and I had to be dropped off in it. I would just pretend there was something on the floor I had to pick up. And that's crazy to us, isn't it? But for a teenager, that's like an important thing. Yeah. And coming back to what you said about how kids really, really want things to go well, um, I spent a week on a yoga camp recently with a senior state lawyer from America, and she works in child services, and she told me that even kids who are being severely abused by their parents still want to go back to their parents. 100%, yeah. Because they feel it feels normal and safe to them. They they may hate it, but they just want they want where they are to feel good. Yeah. And we can do that. So again, don't feel you can't turn it around.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

No, they want it. And that that is such an important point. I mean, even children who are being abused, they they still love their parents. They want to do that.

SPEAKER_02 27:18

They still love their parents and want their approval and their love. And um, one thing I would suggest might be helpful for you is to have a journal and write down all the things that you like about him for yourself, not for him. Write them down to remind yourself of when you do notice those things, because you will have noticed things, you think, oh, that's actually that's quite clever, or that's quite good, or what have them at the top of your mind. And just when you see them, just say, Oh, you know what I like? I like you did that. Or like, and it and and just mention things that will make him feel like you're noticing him and you have been thinking about him and that he matters. Yeah, it's beautiful, and those things can be so powerful.

SPEAKER_00 27:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:59

And I do it regularly with my daughters, and I try to mention things. Not I don't do it in a kind of you know heavy-handed way, but I'll I'll notice something and say, by the way, did you realise that that's actually a superpower of yours?

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Or that's something that they glow, right? And even if they're just going in a bad mood or something, they still go one.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

My youngest boy goes, I I'll say something really nice, and then we'll keep going, keep going.

SPEAKER_02 28:22

More, more, more and and make and just try and do something at least like I love you every day. I always like I never go to bed without saying I love you. No, and then that then we we sort of feel like okay, we've southern the country. I know. I thought, you know, my old surname used to be Walton, and there was a programme. I'm sure the Americans all know about that. Well, I came to England having never watched TV, and the kids when I came to England used to skip around behind me in the playground going, singing the theme tune to the Waltons and going, Gnat Ma, Gnap Pa, Gnat Mary Ellen, Gonna Jim Bab. And I just thought these English people are very odd. Weird, weird. I have no idea why.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

But now I do that to my kids, and they're like, oh mum.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, no, we do it. Night, love you, night, love you, night, oh go, go, turn your lights out.

SPEAKER_02 29:11

And and one last thing, we we've been trying to deal with um with sort of sleep, haven't we? Because I think none of us prioritises it enough, including me. And I kind of wanted a reminder of why it's so important because it keeps coming up whenever I talk to experts. I take away my daughter's devices and I'm quite rigid about it, but it's easier for it to slip. Yes. When it's not school night, for example, and we're having a nice time. Yes, right? Or I'm tired and she says, Oh, just another five minutes. And I and it's a it's a negotiation, isn't it? Are you finding that?

SPEAKER_00 29:49

Oh, totally. I have one in one in particular who we've had this discussion for months about phones and nothing's really worked because he's been resisting me actually doing the deed. And now we have uh restrictions on it, the same that I have. Um so we're kind of doing it together. Yeah, um that's how I work with rubbish at it as well. And um and he's trying it out, and there's now some feedback because I said, we'll try it out for a few weeks and then we'll discuss it. Like this is supposed to be to help you. I'm not like the big bad rule m rule maker here, like you're you know, old enough and ugly enough to to be very much part of this, and you need to be a part of it. And he got to the point where he understood that actually he needed it, so was willing to go along with it. Um and now there's a thing that doesn't work, like he wants he he's missing out on the social chats because um there's restrictions on it, and the the chats they come randomly, don't they? And then there's like a big funny banter, and he loves all of that stuff. He's he's very sociable and he's funny and he's quick and he's missing out. And and I and he he fed that back to me and said, I'm missing out, that bit's not working. Like, um, and so I said, Oh, let me have a think and we'll discuss it like like we're gonna discuss it tonight and try and work out.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

And I love that because you do say, Let me have a think.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Yeah, I can't answer this one. I said, I've got a couple of ideas, but they were they sounded a bit naff, so we went, let me have a think about it. Because I hear you, like I hear you, I hear that I'm not gonna just take them off because it's uncomfortable and you're missing out on chats, that would be daft. And I hear that that is a problem. Like, I and the intention isn't to like that you miss out on stuff. That's that's also daft. So I've I hear you, and how can we find a solution? And we'll try a new thing out. And if that doesn't work, we'll discuss again. So it's an ongoing process until we find something that really works. And he's like, Okay, mum, that's fine. Um, and I then I said to him, Do you find this that it is making a difference? And he said, Yeah, it's it's really helpful in that he can get more work done because he's got ADHD and um is time blind, and the phone is just such a distraction. Um, and he's his sleep is is improving. I I think there's a big room for improvement on that one. But it's the it's the the how you do it, isn't it? It's the discussion behind it. How do we work this out together? And and actually at the end of the day, I am still your mother, and and I have got to the point with him where I go, I'm actually paying for your phone and and I feel sometimes I'm paying for an addiction. A distraction. And I'm no longer willing, that is so uncomfortable for me. I'm no longer willing to go along with that. I love that. I think kind of my boundary, I will die on a hill for that.

SPEAKER_02 32:23

And I wanted you to talk about that because I think that um one of the one of the issues about giving your um your teenager social media, say at 16, is that you've only got a very short window to m navigate this, making sure that they understand how important it is to moderate your behaviour and your use of it. And I'm not saying it's wrong or it's right, I'm just saying it's really important. Because we were, I gave my kids um phones when they were 13. Yeah, me too. Mine had a dad in a foreign country, they needed a phone. Yes. And I think, and I it's a massive debate, and we're not gonna go into it right now, but I just did wanted people to understand that you know, these are some of the things we have to have conversations about and actually helping them, you know, inching forward. So you say, Let's try this, what's your feedback? And them knowing that you're not just gonna suddenly make a unilateral decision, but that you do hold the power. It is you are the parent.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Yeah, and it's very important. It's so hard though, and and and like following like it, I it is one of my probably my biggest regret of parenting is is is not doing it earlier. And and for my eldest, like the the ship has sailed. Yeah. Um and I wish I had. And I fed that back to them. I've said I really wish I'd I'd I'd done that earlier. Um and they kind of they get it. Um but it's it's having you like we have a lot of good conversations around it with the with the particular child that I'm I'm trying to help with at the moment. And um he agrees with it all, but it's the follow-through. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

It's really just so one thing I wanted to mention was um my older daughter, my older teenager said, Oh, I'd like one of these brick things. And it's it's they're being they're being advertised everywhere. And I looked at them. Correct. Correct. And I'm so the way I work is I always research things and look for other alternatives. And I found out that on open source, so open source is platforms where people who like developing software and things, yeah, they borrow each other's code and then they create their own code about things. And there's a guy who's created something called Focus on that. It's an app, it's free. And they don't collect that. Have you seen that? It's F O Q O S, I think. Oh no, I haven't seen that one though. Yeah. And so it's free.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:39

All right. It's not collecting your data and things like that, not like some of these other apps. And all you need to make it work is an NFC. And that's one of these you can buy NFC cards or little I've got tokens, and you can buy them like a pack of five four would be $5.99 on Amazon. All right. And that's it. And what do you do? That's your cost. So what you do is you go on the focus app and you say when you want to have your child focusing, and you put you program it in, and then they have to tap on the NFC and you hold on to the NFC.

SPEAKER_00 35:11

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Right?

SPEAKER_00 35:14

That sounds brilliant. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 35:15

It's brilliant. And what I've been doing is I've been trying it out myself because I didn't want to introduce my child to something where it just didn't work, or I got it wrong, and then she was like, ah, it doesn't work. And actually, I think it's amazing. And it's really it's funny because to start with, I was doing I was having my focus time during the evening, and then I discovered that what you know. And then I thought actually the most effective time for me is from 8 30 until one. I just don't want any social media, anything distracting me because that's when I work best. And and it's funny because it does annoy me. Yeah. But that's okay. So what do you do with it? Because it's I use it for myself. So oh, I just I just restrict it. No, I just have it, I just have it there. But I I re I it does annoy me, but at the same time, I think this is really good. The fact it's annoying me shows me that I shouldn't that I'm actually not controlling myself properly. Uh-huh. So, and and I think try it out on yourself first, and then once you understand how it works and what the irritations are, then you can be compassionate with your child and say, Yeah, I know it's annoying, but you know what? Look how much work I get done.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Yeah, and that is the whole thing of being like uh uh addicted is a is a tricky word, but it is an addiction, isn't it? And it's it's noticing the urges, and and that would be what you're noticing. It's like it's not the actual doing, it's the the need to do, isn't it? Why are you picking up the phone?

SPEAKER_02 36:30

And you can choose which things you block, you can choose. So if it's just one particular thing that you have a bit of a problem with, block that.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

Um or you can just and you can choose different times. I think it's a really good app. For free. That's amazing. I'm gonna buy that. I like it. As soon as we finished. Yes. Well, just that just the there's the app and then the NFC and the NSC. Yeah, and I think it I think they're actually really good.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Um, it sounds more flexible than um than the time thing, which works really well. But um yeah, if you've got like a morning and you need to get stuff done, yeah, then yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

And then you know that it's there's a limit to how long you're going to be blocked. Yeah. And you just go, you know what, I chose this, it's a good idea. Right? And we have to learn these things for to help our kids. So in my Substack about uh handing devices to your children, I start with quite a long preamble about why it's important we understand our own behaviour first. You cannot get your kids to do things that you're not prepared to do yourself.

SPEAKER_00 37:25

No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02 37:26

It doesn't make sense.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

No, it doesn't make sense, and also they they don't take it seriously.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

They don't take it seriously. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Put my phone down as you're on your phone. It's the classic, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 37:34

Stop shouting. Like Absolutely. Right. Well, that's uh all we have time for this week. Yeah. That was fun. That was fun, yeah. Yeah, it's good to see you again, Susie. I've been missing you. Oh, I'm missing these. Um, right, if you found this useful, please send it to somebody that uh might benefit. And if you like the podcast, please give it a review. Just even five stars on the podcast apps. Very, very, very welcome. Uh my Substack is teenagersuntangled.substack.com. Susie, where do we?

SPEAKER_00 38:05

You can find me at uh my website, which is www.amindful hyphenlife.co.uk. When you're not here, what are you doing? Oh, lots of stuff. I'm doing different things. I'm doing some I've been doing some corporate stuff, which I've I love doing, like some lot of webinars. Um I did I did one for um oh I don't know if I'm allowed I'm gonna say probably I'm allowed to say. Battersea dogs and her cats home, which everyone I told went, Oh, you're doing it for the dogs, aren't you? No, they don't need it.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

It wasn't actually the dogs.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

No, stuff like that, which I I love doing, and I'm doing some music and I'm doing some yeah, I'm doing some music.

SPEAKER_02 38:46

It's good. Well, if you want to get in contact with her, you know where to find her. And uh my website is www.teenagersuntangled.com. Um have a great week. Bye bye, Fanna. Bye bye!