Finding Healing in Everyday Messiness

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Hello, and welcome to the Call Her Cat podcast.

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This is where we share honest stories of resilience and recovery.

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I'm Cat York, and my mission is to hold a supportive, honest space for candid discussions

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on addiction, healing, and breaking the mold.

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Whether you're exploring sobriety, navigating challenging family cycles, or working toward

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finding self-love and improvement, these conversations are for you.

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As a gentle reminder before I introduce our guest for today, the Call Her Cat podcast

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is for informational and educational purposes only.

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The views expressed by the host and the guests are their own personal opinions and do not

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constitute professional advice.

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Please consult with a licensed professional for any medical, legal, or psychological concerns.

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Joining us today is Paul Granger.

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Paul has dedicated two decades to full-time volunteer ministry, serving in inner-city

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ministries since 2005.

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His focus is on shepherding others as they seek to love God and love others.

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Paul currently serves with Youth with a Mission in Virginia, is president of New Visions Civic

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League, and facilitates a community Bible study.

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His core mission is to cultivate an authentic, accessible space through content, conversation,

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and community for everyone to process the difficult questions of life.

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Paul is honest about his faith, but values connection and conversation regardless of

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one's belief.

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He is a content creator, having authored over 24 books, and he hosts the popular podcast

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Where Did You See God?

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As a husband and father of three, he believes each day offers opportunities to love God

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and love others at home, locally, and globally.

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And with that, I would like to introduce Paul to everybody.

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Hi, Paul.

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Hi, Cat.

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It's great to be here.

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I'm excited to have a conversation.

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Did I miss anything in Indian?

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No, you captured that well.

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Thank you.

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Good.

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So I guess let's start with, can you tell us a little bit about maybe things you don't

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know about you, like how your faith journey started?

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What led you down this path?

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Yeah.

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Well, I mean, I grew up going to church.

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I mean, I was baptized as an infant, so church was always a part of my life.

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And my mom has always had a strong and authentic faith.

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And that's been a grounding foundational thing for me.

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But realistically, sometimes it can actually be harder to have an authentic faith when

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you grow up in an environment where it seems like everyone has that same faith, because

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you might take for granted what it actually means to believe what you're saying you believe.

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And that's a question that I had to confront when I was in middle school, because out of

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the blue, I found myself having this, you know, not existential crisis, but hit with

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this deep, deep question of, if I'm saying I believe in God, what does that actually

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mean?

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If I'm saying I'm a Christian, how does that actually impact my life?

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Are these things just things that I say and labels that I wear?

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Or is it something that I believe so fully that it shapes who I am today and who I will

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become?

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And I found myself really wrestling with the idea of what does this mean for right now

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in the future?

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And I decided that I wasn't interested in just wearing a label or just doing or saying

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things because others are doing or saying it.

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And so I found myself leaning into this direction of I want to actually live out the things

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that I say I believe, and I actually want to pursue this God that I say exists.

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And that has led into what has basically been a lifetime of ministry.

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And when I say that, it's not just vocational.

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The one thing I've come to learn is how do I live out ministry as a lifestyle rather

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than it just being a job description or projects?

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And particularly over the last couple of decades, it's been a constant learning experience of

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what it means to do what is core in Scripture.

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Scripture says several places that the most important thing is to love God and love others.

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Well, what does that actually look like practically?

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What does that look like in my life?

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But what does that look like in the choices I make and the things that I say?

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And I found that every day is an opportunity to honestly explore that and to honestly live

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into it or not, and then to process that.

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And so I have served in functional vocational ministry roles, but over the last several

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years, since 2018, I've functionally been full-time volunteer ministry.

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In other words, I haven't gotten a traditional paycheck since 2018.

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And my life has been marked by, I'd say, inconsistency.

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I could not give you a clear job title nor job description.

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Every year, every month, every week, sometimes every day has been different and unexpected.

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And yet, there has been this consistency in my desire to use my life from wake up to

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fall asleep to try to authentically love God and love others.

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And in my neighborhood, there are many, many, many opportunities.

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I live in an urban context, and so I'm seeing neighbors every day.

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I'm engaging the community every day.

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And so it makes that decision to love others even more important, because otherwise I could

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have a detrimental effect.

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No, you highlighted something that I think we cling to a lot in our societies, which

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we have to know all the answers.

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Because like you said, your job title is constantly evolving.

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Your paychecks are inconsistent.

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And some people would be like, oh, my God, how does he live like that?

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As a husband, as a father, like, how does he say that?

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You know, and it's like, you know, and that's it.

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And I'm sure that is not without.

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Is it safe to say, I should say that it's not without, you know, fear sometimes on your

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part? Oh, yeah.

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I mean, it's it is challenging.

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This past year alone, 2025 and 2026 has definitely been the hardest financially, a lot of

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things changed for a lot of people.

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But in addition to that, and expenses getting more expensive, somebody totaled our car,

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our van in the middle of the night.

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Now we have a car payment when we had already had the van paid off.

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There are a lot of unexpected things that have happened, shifts in folks who have been

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supporting me, having to lower or stop giving.

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And so the income and expense breakdown has been more intimidating lately.

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And and it's tricky because.

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We can look at the here and now expenses and also know where income is and isn't coming

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from and project out and say, unless something major happens, we're going to be in

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ruin. But then I I sometimes remember to remind myself that I've been functioning in

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this way since 2018.

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For two of those years, my wife didn't get a paycheck, so neither of us had a formal

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paycheck coming in. And if we had made it for one year like that, that's one thing and

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you might be able to explain it.

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But it's it's the longer this goes, the harder it is to just rush it off as luck or

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strategic planning or or any of that.

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I mean, there's a lot of impossible things that have happened.

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And so I'm I'm living in this place where from a human vantage point, from human logic,

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there is there's ample reason to be afraid.

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But when I started this, one of the things that I sense very clearly from God was an

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invitation to not operate out of financial fears, to not make decisions because I need

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money or I need this, that or the other, and to rather live as though if he's actually

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real, what could that look like?

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But yeah, it's it's a day to day thing and it's a it's a recurring choice to lean into

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faith, particularly in the times when faith seems the most foolish thing I could have.

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No, I mean.

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I've I have I've lately been, you know, trying to redefine like what success actually

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means, because I feel like just as a society and as a whole, it's gotten very skewed and

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almost kind of unhealthy, almost unattainable in some ways.

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Yeah.

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Where do you believe?

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As Christians or non-Christians, we got so misaligned with our definition of success.

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Oh, yeah. I mean, there's there's a few things that come to my mind.

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One, culturally, there's the question of what is valued and money is valued.

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Wealth is valued.

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Having a good reputation is valued.

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Security is valued.

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Comfort is valued.

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And so success for us can be defined by what is culturally valued.

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And it might not even be what we value, but because we live in the culture, we feel this

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pressure to lean into it.

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And so the most successful people are the ones with the most money, the best reputations,

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the most comfort, the most vacations in a year like that.

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That is success.

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And you can make a strong point for that.

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But I think the other piece tied to that that leads us to get misaligned is we do not

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understand the extent to which we live and think through our bubbles.

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And so this is part of what I touched on earlier in my faith story is I grew up in a bubble

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where Christianity was the norm.

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Most people I encountered were Christians.

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Christianity was accepted.

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And and so I just lived and functioned as how that bubble existed.

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But when I started to press against that, I realized that, one, I needed to understand

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who I was and what I believed.

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But then as I got outside of that bubble, I began to realize the wisdom in that because

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there's a lot of how and who I could have functioned if I had just remained in my bubble

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mindset, that would not have meshed well in a lot of the environments where I found

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myself. And now, you know, I mentioned in the neighborhood I live in there, I mean,

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there's a wide range of demographics.

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So there there's been a lot of gentrification.

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So there are definitely some wealthy, upper class demographics represented.

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But historically, due to a number of factors that were beyond neighbors control, we also

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have a high level of poverty.

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And as a result of many factors as well, high levels of addiction.

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And so in this community, I mean, even within a few block radius, many, many, many

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different bubbles are represented, many understandings of what life is supposed to be.

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And what's hard is I think this is the third thing I'll throw in.

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We always tend to compare up rather than be mindful holistically.

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And so I'll look at my life and then I'll think of anyone whose lives look better than

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mine and make the assumption that they are better.

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And that's where I need to get.

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That's what I need in order to be happy in life.

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And the reality is, is the fact that you and I are talking on microphones, we are, you

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know, in the small demographic of wealthiest people in the world, even if we don't feel

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wealthy, like I don't feel wealthy right now, but I've got lights on.

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I have a glass of clean drinking water and I've got electricity going through my house.

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And there are many people in the world that don't have any of those things with any kind

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of consistency or security.

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And so that's one thing I've learned as well, is how can I have a more holistic

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mindfulness around the experiences of everyone I encounter, rather than just having

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this bubble mindset, this default understanding of how life is supposed to be?

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Because there are a lot of people that have a whole lot of wealth that are not happy.

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And there are a lot of people in the world that have nearly nothing that will sometimes

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meet a stranger and cook up the remaining bit of their food and joyfully practice

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hospitality. Right.

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Like, so what brings life value?

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What success actually is, is not as clear cut as we assume, because life is about more

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than money and things.

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Yeah. No, and you raise a good point.

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We we try to determine here is like level up all the time, you know, and in leveling

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up, I don't think we often look around us.

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Yeah. You know, I got to get the next thing or the newest car or the, you know, I got

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to have another zero on my bank account.

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Yeah. And as you pointed out, a lot of these individuals who have all these things,

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comforts don't end up being very satisfied in life.

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And one thing I am curious about, because you mentioned that in the community that you

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live, there's very different demographics.

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Yeah. So how do you in your ministry and as a human being, how do you manage the tension

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between God removing hardships, God allowing the hardships?

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Yeah, that's that's a hard one, right, because we assume a good God would never allow

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bad things. And and I think one thing I've come to learn is.

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You know, if I'm going to choose to believe scripture, scripture talks about a reality

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beyond the here and now, about this eternity in the here and now, this life that I'm

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living, however many decades it will be, you know, scripture talks about it as though

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it's like a blade of grass that withers and blows away.

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Put another way. Because all I know is the here and now, the hardships, the moments, the

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experiences seem huge, but let's say I even live to be a hundred, the hundred years of

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experiences is not even a blip on the radar of eternity.

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Scripture talks about this.

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Paul is talking to this group of people and he says, you know, our light and momentary

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troubles are accomplishing something greater.

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I can't remember how the passage goes, but he's talking about light and momentary

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troubles. But what he's referencing is them being persecuted, them going through extreme

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hardship, stuff that they would not have considered light and momentary.

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They experience it heavy and right now.

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And so I think this is part of it is there.

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If God is real, right, if he is doing something greater than just our here and now

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lives, then that means how we understand our hardships might be limited.

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Now, I say that having, you know, had moments this week where I was really frustrated

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about things. And so it's this constant balance.

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But when you encounter somebody, you know, that's going to come across as just like

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theological platitudes, because somebody that's in hardships doesn't want to hear that

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the hardships are light and momentary.

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And so I think, you know, the core of your question is, how does, how do I respond to

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that? How does someone that, you know, is maybe working for a ministry or a church

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respond to that? Unfortunately, there are a lot of answers to that question.

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And I think how some people respond to it is they just avoid it altogether.

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If they see somebody on the sidewalk that they decide might not be a safe person or

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might ask them for something, they might cross to the other side of the street.

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There are a lot of people who identify as Christian that will lean into avoidance,

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sometimes subconsciously, but sometimes cautiously.

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There are many churches and ministries that aren't trying to avoid, but their mindset is

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on this person has problems or they might be the problem.

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And so there is almost this like protective approach, you know, kind of keep you at arm's

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length because I don't know what you might do.

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I love you. I want to be there for you, but I don't know what you might do.

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Then there's a demographic where it's they genuinely want to love and serve.

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They're not trying to have any kind of negative perception, but they still have in their

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mind. What this person should become and what should happen of their their challenges.

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And so what happens if that doesn't change?

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You know, we're talking about addiction.

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Well, anybody who really has seriously navigated or researched the topic of addiction

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knows that it's not something you can just like read a book and you're good or take a pill

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and you're good or do any kind of thing and it's solved forever.

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It is a lifelong journey of navigating it.

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Well, that could be hard for well-meaning people who are like, I've been hanging out with

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this person for years and it just seems like nothing has changed.

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And so they kind of give up.

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Where I've tried to position myself is to release my expectations of who somebody should

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be or what somebody should do, because that's not my job to mold and shape people.

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If I believe in God, that's that's his thing.

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That's his department. The only thing he has qualified me for is to be I was going to say

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is it's not even to love.

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It's to be a conduit of love because I know my ability to love is going to be limited.

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That word itself.

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We don't know what that means.

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Most of the time I love pizza or I love a bagel.

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All right. But if I position myself so that God can love through me, sometimes that means

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God can love in spite of me, even if I don't want to interact with someone or I am scared

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of someone or someone has taken advantage of me before.

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And so I think this is all of this ties into, you know, we're not always aware of how we

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are engaging with people in situations and we're not always aware of the expectations

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we carry. And I'll tell you what, the saddest part for me is Christians should be really

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good at this.

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I mean, if we are living into what the Bible says and if we are to be a Christian is supposed

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to be to be a Christ follower.

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And if we're following his example of how he loved people like we should be the best at

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this. But I facilitate a community Bible study and I cannot tell you how many times somebody

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has walked in and ended up sharing like I don't feel comfortable in church or I went to a

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church and they kicked me out.

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Or it is a surprisingly and heartbreakingly common thing for someone who is in any

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number of hardships to feel like the church and Christians are not safe.

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And it should not be that way, but it often is.

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Yeah. No, it is.

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And you highlighted a good point that sometimes people don't want to stray away.

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They feel maybe prejudged and you highlighted a good point that it's not up to you to mold

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somebody. You know, you're a conduit of of God's love and his message.

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And that's not always an easy place to be, I can imagine.

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Because maybe if we're still human, we could have visions and expectations of what you

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believe a person's capabilities are.

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But we don't know their journey or what they go through on a day to day basis.

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And, you know, from what I read about your story, you know, it takes a lot of faith to

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walk the path that you walked.

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I mean, as you've shared, you're thriving without a consistent paycheck, consistent

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job title. You ministry to to everybody.

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And I'm curious, with all the roles that you have, how do you cultivate a practice of

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seeking God in simple ways?

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You know, outside of the complexity of ministry and Bible study.

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Yeah. And doing that is so important because, as you noted, I mean, whether somebody's a

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Christian or not, whatever they believe, we all know what it is to have things in our

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lives, projects in our lives that can become overwhelming or can, at the very least, demand

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a lot of our attention.

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And if the thing you are doing is something that is actually outside your ability and

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power, even understanding, then, man, that could become crushing.

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And so here I am stepping into these spaces of ministry and often encountering stuff that

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is beyond, definitely beyond my pay grade.

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My pay grade is pretty low.

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But also my experience, my knowledge, my comfort, beyond all of it.

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And so if I don't have regular touch points with what is meant to be the source, then

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I'm going to drain myself and I'm going to burn out and that's going to be it.

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But the problem is, is a lot of times Christians will rely on some of the high level

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things. So I'll give you an example.

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Growing up and through college, I would always hear people talk about quiet time.

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You have to have your quiet time.

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And for those who haven't heard that phrase, what it basically means is you take 15, 30,

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45 minutes, an hour where it's just you and God and you've got your Bible.

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Maybe you listen to some music and you pray and and it's great.

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That's that's a it's a great thing.

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It could be a really fruitful thing.

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And I tried to carry that out.

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It's can be hard to keep a rhythm and a schedule.

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But man, I was doing it and then my first child was born and I realized, oh, I can no

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longer control quiet, nor can I control time.

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When you are single or when you have a lot of control over your life, you could shape

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out these pockets.

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But man, when you've got an infant that's awake every couple hours and screaming and

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you can't like you can't set aside this quiet time.

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And there is this pressure then of, oh, well, that's how I connect with God.

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I can't do it anymore.

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So I guess I don't connect with God.

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We don't say it like that, but we function like that.

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And so I had to learn what does it look like to you?

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To embrace even the small moments, the small opportunities, the small things, because,

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again, we talked about success earlier.

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Small is is not good.

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You know, we want the big displays, the giant leaps of faith.

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But man, sometimes the toe nudge forward is more than enough.

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And that infant I mentioned, he grew up and continued to be disruptive.

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And then he got a sister and a brother.

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So my house is rarely quiet.

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I have very little control over my time.

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But what I can do is when I'm feeling the pressures of life or I'm navigating something,

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I can go step out, sit on the porch, and maybe it's just a minute of sitting with God.

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Maybe it's not even praying.

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Maybe I'm so frustrated with God that I'm not even saying anything to him,

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but I'm just sitting aware that he exists, right?

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Like and sometimes those tiny little moments can be so restorative.

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And so that's something.

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Yeah, I think the other thing for me is reshaping my understanding of prayer,

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because growing up, prayer is a clear, you start and you stop.

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So dear God, and then you end with amen.

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And then whatever is in the middle, you ask for something.

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Maybe you say something nice to him, and then that's it.

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And then you go about your business until you need to talk to him again.

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And that's just not what I believe prayer is meant to be.

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I think prayer is not just not meant to be like treating God as a vending machine.

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But the whole purpose of it is authentic connection.

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And if God is present and active, that means in any given moment,

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I don't have to do the start and stop.

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Like I could just interact with him.

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So I've tried to learn to do that as well,

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like in the midst of meeting somebody new or encountering a hard situation,

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recognizing that God is already listening.

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So I can just, I don't even have to verbally say anything.

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Like I could just think, you know, so I think, yeah, you're right.

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Like even for someone who's not a Christian,

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this thing, this reality still can be true

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of how are we creating these small moments of restoration,

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these small moments of just breathing.

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I mean, this is therapists, counselors will talk about this often

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because it's a reality.

359
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And if God does exist, then how much more so

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if doing that can also give you access to something beyond yourself.

361
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Right.

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And I mean, I was looking at your website

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and like I mentioned in the bio, you have 24 books.

364
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You know, you also host a podcast,

365
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the ministry and being a father and a husband.

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And what strikes me about your story is how,

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you know, you say you don't have a consistent,

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reliable income or title.

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And I'm curious, like what you mean when you say,

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you know, God doesn't care about your job.

371
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Yeah.

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You know.

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Yeah.

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And sometimes when I say that, you know, people kind of rubs them the wrong way

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because they're like, well, to say God doesn't care about me,

376
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to say God doesn't care about something seems odd.

377
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And I think, you know, what I want people to understand is,

378
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I'll put it this way.

379
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One of my last formal roles was leading internship programs,

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summer and year long.

381
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And particularly for the year long ones,

382
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I'd have these young adults who had just graduated

383
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and they would come in with this deep, deep stress

384
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around what am I supposed to do with my life?

385
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And they're coming into a ministry setting.

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So on top of their own desires

387
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and on top of their parents and others' expectations of them,

388
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they also feel this pressure to figure out what God wants them to do,

389
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what job God wants them to have.

390
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And they would get so, so anxious about this.

391
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And what I had come to learn in my own vocational journey is that

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sometimes it's not that God has a specific job title

393
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or organization that he wants somebody to be at

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and he hopes we crack the code and figure it out.

395
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I think deep down what God is looking for is for us to seek him.

396
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You know, there's this passage that says,

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seek first the kingdom of God is righteousness

398
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and all these things will follow.

399
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And that job that I had right before it was a job that I loved.

400
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,920
I was a team director at a Salvation Army Boys and Girls Club.

401
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,439
And I won't get into the whole story,

402
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,680
but through a series of events,

403
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,680
I found myself having to decide between staying there

404
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,239
and transitioning over to this other ministry.

405
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And it was hard.

406
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:15,920
I didn't know what to do.

407
00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:16,800
And I prayed and I prayed

408
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,119
and I wanted God to give me the neon sign and he didn't.

409
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And instead I felt like 51% sure of this other space

410
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:28,719
and that felt insufficient.

411
00:29:28,719 --> 00:29:29,680
But then I realized like,

412
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,719
what if I'm putting pressure that God is looking for me

413
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to figure out this very specific thing?

414
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,959
What if instead he just wants me to seek him

415
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:38,880
in the decision that I make

416
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and whatever decision I make will be fine

417
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,400
because it's not about the job.

418
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It's about something deeper.

419
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It's about loving God and loving others wherever I land.

420
00:29:48,479 --> 00:29:51,599
And so when I lost that job, I navigated that again

421
00:29:51,599 --> 00:29:53,760
because as you noted, you know,

422
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,520
as a husband and a father and homeowner

423
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and all these things,

424
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,880
unemployment's not a good look and it's irresponsible.

425
00:30:03,839 --> 00:30:06,319
And so there was this high pressure

426
00:30:06,319 --> 00:30:08,319
when I lost that job from people

427
00:30:08,319 --> 00:30:11,359
that you need to get a new job as soon as possible.

428
00:30:11,359 --> 00:30:12,719
But then meanwhile, God was saying,

429
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don't operate out of financial fear.

430
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,760
And that was August of 2018.

431
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:20,160
It wasn't until the spring of 2019

432
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:25,599
that I stepped fully into a full-time volunteer ministry.

433
00:30:25,599 --> 00:30:27,599
But again, that didn't come with a paycheck.

434
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,199
And so in that space, like I did do some job hunting

435
00:30:33,199 --> 00:30:34,319
and I did apply to things,

436
00:30:34,319 --> 00:30:36,319
but that's what I came to realize even more deeply

437
00:30:36,319 --> 00:30:39,040
is God could give me a different job.

438
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:40,880
I could find myself a job.

439
00:30:41,439 --> 00:30:44,479
But meanwhile, I was able to love those around me

440
00:30:44,479 --> 00:30:48,239
in deeper ways because it wasn't bound

441
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,239
to specific expectations of an organization,

442
00:30:52,239 --> 00:30:54,079
specific financial constraints.

443
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,959
I would just show up each day and say,

444
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all right, God, here I am.

445
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,319
What am I doing today?

446
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:03,839
And so I think that is the short answer to the question

447
00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:06,319
is God cares less about our job title

448
00:31:06,319 --> 00:31:08,239
and more about how we are living

449
00:31:08,239 --> 00:31:11,199
into the identity he gave us wherever we are,

450
00:31:11,199 --> 00:31:12,560
whatever our responsibilities,

451
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,640
which means that sure, somebody can be a pastor

452
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:18,479
or a missionary or a ministry worker,

453
00:31:18,479 --> 00:31:20,400
and that can be great.

454
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,760
Somebody could be in a deeply secular job

455
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,199
that has nothing to do with God.

456
00:31:27,199 --> 00:31:28,560
I even consider like,

457
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,560
maybe I could go just be a garbage collector.

458
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:31,839
Like that's straightforward.

459
00:31:33,439 --> 00:31:37,359
It doesn't matter if your job is quote spiritual or not.

460
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,640
Whatever we do can be an opportunity

461
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:41,839
to love God and love others.

462
00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:44,560
And sometimes the unexpected spaces

463
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,800
is where the most profound things can happen.

464
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,119
And sometimes the people in the expected roles

465
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,640
are falling short, not sometimes, oftentimes.

466
00:31:53,119 --> 00:31:58,400
No, you highlighted something that I think is so,

467
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:01,520
we touched on something and you said,

468
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,760
when you're making the decision of which way to go

469
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:05,040
between the two positions,

470
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,119
what if God was asking you just to make a decision

471
00:32:09,119 --> 00:32:10,479
and he'd see you through it?

472
00:32:10,479 --> 00:32:11,839
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

473
00:32:11,839 --> 00:32:13,280
You know, because so often,

474
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,199
like you said, we look for these neon signs

475
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,640
or like, give me an answer, show me something.

476
00:32:19,199 --> 00:32:19,920
Yeah.

477
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,800
Ever waiting for like that, that God pull,

478
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,400
you know, like, no, go this way.

479
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:25,599
No, go that way.

480
00:32:25,599 --> 00:32:27,760
What if it's more of just about taking a leap

481
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,160
and having God see you through it?

482
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:31,280
Yeah, yeah.

483
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:36,640
You know, and you say something that I like

484
00:32:37,599 --> 00:32:40,239
and it's that God is God and God is good.

485
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,160
Can you expand on that meaning

486
00:32:45,199 --> 00:32:49,040
as it relates to that trust factor

487
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,000
and kind of taking those leaps of faith?

488
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:52,500
Yeah.

489
00:32:54,079 --> 00:32:56,400
So, you know, as I've read scripture,

490
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:57,680
those are two things.

491
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:59,599
That's the consolidated form of two things

492
00:32:59,599 --> 00:33:03,040
that I feel like scripture is very clear about who God is.

493
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:04,079
So God is God.

494
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:05,680
He's powerful.

495
00:33:06,239 --> 00:33:08,160
He's all knowing.

496
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:09,920
He's omnipresent.

497
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,959
I mean, he is bigger than we can grasp.

498
00:33:13,839 --> 00:33:14,959
And then God is good.

499
00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,040
One way that scripture describes God is God is love.

500
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,680
Not just God is loving, but God is love.

501
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:29,280
And so these can be nice theological things,

502
00:33:30,079 --> 00:33:31,119
but in everyday life,

503
00:33:31,119 --> 00:33:32,880
we can really struggle to believe

504
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:34,239
that those things are true.

505
00:33:34,239 --> 00:33:35,920
As we've talked about before,

506
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,640
how can God be good if bad things are happening?

507
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,239
If he allows bad stuff, how can he be loving?

508
00:33:42,239 --> 00:33:45,760
And if maybe it's, you know, he's loving,

509
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:46,640
but he just can't deal with it,

510
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:47,920
well, then he's not powerful.

511
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,640
Well, for me, the way I really came to understand

512
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:54,959
this more deeply was not theologically,

513
00:33:54,959 --> 00:33:58,400
but a tremendous step of faith.

514
00:33:59,359 --> 00:34:01,040
There's a much longer story I could tell,

515
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,839
but the short version is my father passed away

516
00:34:03,839 --> 00:34:06,479
when I was five and I was too young

517
00:34:06,479 --> 00:34:07,839
to understand what that meant.

518
00:34:07,839 --> 00:34:09,520
But it did put in me this desire

519
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,000
to one day be a father myself.

520
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,639
And to live longer for my kids

521
00:34:14,639 --> 00:34:16,320
than my dad was able to live for me.

522
00:34:16,879 --> 00:34:20,800
And so when my wife and I became pregnant in 2011,

523
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:23,600
I was incredibly excited.

524
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,159
We were both so, so, so excited.

525
00:34:26,879 --> 00:34:28,719
So you can imagine how heartbroken we were

526
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,840
when at the first appointment in nine and a half weeks,

527
00:34:32,479 --> 00:34:33,760
the nurse looked over and said,

528
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:34,560
there's no heartbeat.

529
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,360
And I remember initially feeling the shock,

530
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,879
which was followed by this deep, deep sense

531
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,439
of this invitation to prayer.

532
00:34:45,439 --> 00:34:46,719
And I thought of verses like

533
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:48,879
Lazarus being raised from the dead,

534
00:34:48,879 --> 00:34:50,879
Jesus coming back from the dead,

535
00:34:50,879 --> 00:34:52,639
verses that say things like,

536
00:34:52,639 --> 00:34:54,159
if you ask anything in my name,

537
00:34:54,159 --> 00:34:55,199
it will be given to you.

538
00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:58,080
And I wondered, what if this is an opportunity

539
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:01,120
to pray for our baby to live?

540
00:35:01,919 --> 00:35:03,760
It felt crazy, but at the moment,

541
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,520
I was like, I felt this strong sense,

542
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:06,639
yes, we should do this.

543
00:35:06,639 --> 00:35:08,719
And so we asked if there's anything

544
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:09,840
we need to do at the moment.

545
00:35:10,399 --> 00:35:12,320
The doctor said, we could set an appointment

546
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,639
for two weeks and come back and talk about it then.

547
00:35:15,439 --> 00:35:17,280
And my wife and I prayed harder

548
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:18,639
than we had ever prayed.

549
00:35:18,639 --> 00:35:20,399
And friends joined us praying harder

550
00:35:20,399 --> 00:35:21,360
than we'd ever prayed.

551
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:22,800
We also felt the pressure of,

552
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:24,239
are we praying the right way?

553
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:26,320
What if I pray and then I do something bad

554
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:27,439
and does that negate it?

555
00:35:28,879 --> 00:35:30,879
And so it was this really tense two weeks

556
00:35:30,879 --> 00:35:31,840
because there's no way for us

557
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:33,280
to know if it worked or not.

558
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,199
And we get to the appointment and no change.

559
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,159
But then I'm like, well, maybe this is the opportunity

560
00:35:40,159 --> 00:35:41,199
to really lean into faith

561
00:35:41,199 --> 00:35:43,040
because then we'll really know it's a miracle.

562
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,159
It wasn't just an error on the nurse's part

563
00:35:46,159 --> 00:35:48,080
where the baby was just turned the wrong way.

564
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,000
Now, if we pray and the baby's alive,

565
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:53,520
it's gonna change everything.

566
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,439
And what I realized is stepping

567
00:35:57,439 --> 00:36:00,320
into that level of crazy faith,

568
00:36:02,479 --> 00:36:04,000
I would not be able to go back

569
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,159
to the same way afterwards

570
00:36:06,159 --> 00:36:08,320
because either one, the baby lives

571
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,560
and I'm gonna have to pray differently from now on

572
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,239
because I know that prayer works.

573
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:13,679
I know that miracles happen.

574
00:36:13,679 --> 00:36:14,560
Our baby lived.

575
00:36:15,439 --> 00:36:17,520
I can no longer pray the same way.

576
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,040
But if our baby didn't live,

577
00:36:19,679 --> 00:36:20,879
I'd have to really contend with

578
00:36:20,879 --> 00:36:22,159
what does that mean about God?

579
00:36:22,879 --> 00:36:25,760
Because I prayed, I asked and he didn't do it.

580
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:30,159
And so we go to the, they set an appointment

581
00:36:30,879 --> 00:36:32,959
and we go back and this was the final moment.

582
00:36:33,199 --> 00:36:37,280
And nothing changed.

583
00:36:38,879 --> 00:36:39,840
Our baby was gone.

584
00:36:40,639 --> 00:36:42,560
And I realized I was at the crossroads now.

585
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,320
I had to make a decision of what I felt about God.

586
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,719
And what I felt was he didn't show up.

587
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:50,560
I felt confused, angry.

588
00:36:51,199 --> 00:36:53,280
Logic said that God must not be God

589
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,080
and must not be good because our baby didn't live.

590
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,040
But something within me realized

591
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,959
I had another opportunity, a crazy one

592
00:37:01,919 --> 00:37:05,199
that instead of throwing away my decades

593
00:37:05,199 --> 00:37:08,320
of seeking God and learning who he is

594
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:09,280
and experiencing him,

595
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,399
I could choose to still believe

596
00:37:12,399 --> 00:37:14,159
that God is God and God is good

597
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,120
even though it didn't feel like it,

598
00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:18,479
even though I couldn't see it,

599
00:37:18,479 --> 00:37:20,320
even though I couldn't understand it.

600
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:21,520
Put more succinctly,

601
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,679
it was an opportunity to recognize

602
00:37:23,679 --> 00:37:26,080
that just because I don't understand something

603
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:27,520
doesn't mean that it is, isn't.

604
00:37:28,639 --> 00:37:30,320
When I was a kid, there's a lot that I believed

605
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,199
that now as an adult, I realize how off I was,

606
00:37:33,199 --> 00:37:34,320
how confused I was.

607
00:37:34,959 --> 00:37:37,120
And so what could it look like to lean in faith

608
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:38,639
that these things are still true?

609
00:37:39,439 --> 00:37:42,560
And it was that act of choosing to believe

610
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:43,679
that God was God

611
00:37:43,679 --> 00:37:45,520
and choosing to believe that he was good

612
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:47,760
regardless of everything else

613
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,239
that was one of the first moments

614
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,719
of really, really, really stepping in faith

615
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,159
because it cost me everything.

616
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:56,479
Other times, like it didn't cost me as much,

617
00:37:56,479 --> 00:37:59,600
but this, this cost me everything.

618
00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:05,120
And that became the framework of everything after,

619
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:08,879
how I understood God, how I experienced God.

620
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,199
Because the other piece of it too,

621
00:38:11,199 --> 00:38:12,320
and this is a hard one,

622
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,080
is if we're honest,

623
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,479
sometimes we are all on board

624
00:38:16,479 --> 00:38:17,919
for believing in God

625
00:38:17,919 --> 00:38:20,399
insofar as he does the things

626
00:38:20,399 --> 00:38:21,360
that we want him to do.

627
00:38:22,479 --> 00:38:24,560
And if he doesn't do those things,

628
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:25,919
then we don't want him.

629
00:38:25,919 --> 00:38:29,439
And that's the story of so many moments in scripture.

630
00:38:29,439 --> 00:38:31,439
But in that scenario,

631
00:38:31,439 --> 00:38:32,800
if I'm setting the terms

632
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,159
and demanding something of God,

633
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,399
I'm not actually believing God's God,

634
00:38:36,399 --> 00:38:37,280
I'm believing I am

635
00:38:37,919 --> 00:38:40,320
because I'm the one who deserves to set the terms

636
00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,239
and I'm the one who deserves to get what I want.

637
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,040
But if I choose to forego what it is I really want

638
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,959
and think I deserve for the sake of loving this God,

639
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,560
now I'm actually starting to actually love him,

640
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:55,520
actually choose him.

641
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,120
And so, all that being said,

642
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,639
it is still something I have to come back to

643
00:39:02,639 --> 00:39:03,679
on a daily basis

644
00:39:03,679 --> 00:39:06,639
because it's not like all hardships disappeared after that.

645
00:39:06,639 --> 00:39:07,760
We had another miscarriage,

646
00:39:08,399 --> 00:39:10,879
but we've also had three kids since then.

647
00:39:10,879 --> 00:39:13,199
I've had amazing opportunities

648
00:39:13,199 --> 00:39:15,679
to see him through different forms of ministry

649
00:39:15,679 --> 00:39:20,159
and I've experienced a lot of hardship in ministry,

650
00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:23,120
even toxic ministry environments.

651
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,439
And so, it's a day-to-day decision

652
00:39:26,399 --> 00:39:28,080
to choose to still believe that

653
00:39:28,879 --> 00:39:30,959
even if it seems like things are not going the way

654
00:39:30,959 --> 00:39:31,840
that I want them to go

655
00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,320
because I'm choosing each day to learn

656
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,479
what it means to not make life about myself,

657
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,600
to make it actually about loving God and loving others.

658
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,879
No, that's beautiful.

659
00:39:42,879 --> 00:39:46,479
And I am very sorry for the losses you and your wife

660
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,199
incurred while trying to build your family

661
00:39:49,199 --> 00:39:49,840
because that's heavy.

662
00:39:50,479 --> 00:39:51,919
That's very heavy.

663
00:39:53,199 --> 00:39:57,760
And that takes almost like a radical faith,

664
00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:58,399
some would say.

665
00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:03,600
And for you to not turn your back on God,

666
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,679
that's a powerful testament

667
00:40:05,679 --> 00:40:07,600
to how hard you work at your faith.

668
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:10,800
Well, and I'll even say to that

669
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,600
because somebody could be listening and think,

670
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,760
oh, wow, man, he's such a good Christian.

671
00:40:16,479 --> 00:40:18,399
I could never do something like that.

672
00:40:18,399 --> 00:40:19,360
I'm gonna be clear.

673
00:40:20,479 --> 00:40:21,040
I couldn't.

674
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,040
I was in such a low, hard place.

675
00:40:25,679 --> 00:40:29,120
It was not a matter of me being a strong Christian

676
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:33,840
or having a lot of intellectual understanding

677
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,239
or a lot of physical strength or mental strength.

678
00:40:38,159 --> 00:40:42,479
At that moment, it sounds like a leap,

679
00:40:42,479 --> 00:40:44,239
but functionally for me,

680
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,159
all I was able to give was the toe nudge.

681
00:40:46,879 --> 00:40:48,399
But that little thing was enough.

682
00:40:48,399 --> 00:40:50,800
This is why Jesus talks about faith

683
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,760
like a mustard seed can move mountains

684
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:54,719
because we'll look at,

685
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,199
we'll hear these stories of profound faith

686
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,959
and we'll note how amazing those are

687
00:41:00,959 --> 00:41:02,159
while also acknowledging

688
00:41:02,159 --> 00:41:03,840
that it's so out of reach for us.

689
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,679
But mustard seed faith is the slightest bit

690
00:41:07,679 --> 00:41:09,120
of actual true faith.

691
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,120
The slightest, slightest bit is more powerful

692
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,159
than like the most theological mind,

693
00:41:16,159 --> 00:41:18,879
the most ministry experience.

694
00:41:18,879 --> 00:41:22,560
And mustard seed faith is accessible to anyone.

695
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,879
That's why scripture often says,

696
00:41:24,879 --> 00:41:27,760
God chooses the lowly and the unwise

697
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:29,760
and the et cetera, et cetera, et cetera

698
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,399
because worldly thinking is the strongest people

699
00:41:32,399 --> 00:41:33,679
and the smartest people are the ones

700
00:41:33,679 --> 00:41:34,639
who get the most done.

701
00:41:35,439 --> 00:41:36,800
And then God kept choosing people

702
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,280
that everyone else had written off,

703
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:40,080
thought less than.

704
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,120
And when those people suddenly accomplished great things,

705
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,120
that meant, oh, it wasn't that person.

706
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:46,479
There must be something more.

707
00:41:46,479 --> 00:41:49,439
But imagine for that person who knew who they were,

708
00:41:49,439 --> 00:41:52,320
who knew how unable they were

709
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,600
and to see powerful things come through them,

710
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,399
man, they would know that it was God

711
00:41:58,399 --> 00:41:58,959
because they're like,

712
00:41:58,959 --> 00:42:00,479
I definitely could not have done this.

713
00:42:00,479 --> 00:42:02,479
And so that's, I do wanna encourage people.

714
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,239
What I was able to access wasn't because of me

715
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:12,239
but was my slightest bit of willingness

716
00:42:12,959 --> 00:42:15,439
to toe-nudge forward.

717
00:42:15,439 --> 00:42:17,280
And God said, I can work with that.

718
00:42:18,879 --> 00:42:20,800
Yeah, and that's beautiful

719
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,840
because as you stated,

720
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,840
some things we simply can't explain.

721
00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:28,560
You know, it's above our pay grade.

722
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:31,439
We don't know God's grander plan

723
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,439
or what his true mission for us is.

724
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,800
And I'm curious how these experiences

725
00:42:42,639 --> 00:42:48,560
shape the way that you show up in all avenues,

726
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,280
whether it be through your ministry,

727
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,280
through your podcasts, through your books.

728
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,719
How have these experiences, these hardships

729
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:00,159
shaped how you provide

730
00:43:00,879 --> 00:43:03,280
like these authentic accessible spaces

731
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:05,760
for talking and processing God?

732
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:07,199
Yeah, yeah.

733
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,520
The normal way it's supposed to work

734
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,840
is I'm supposed to become an expert in my field.

735
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,320
And I'm supposed to create all this stuff

736
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,080
and guide people through it.

737
00:43:18,080 --> 00:43:20,560
And that's not, I'm not saying that's bad,

738
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,280
but for the specific field that I'm navigating,

739
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:26,000
where I know it's not meant to be about me,

740
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,360
not meant to be in my power.

741
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,080
The worst thing I can do is make it about me

742
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:31,840
and my power and my intellect and wisdom.

743
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,159
And unfortunately, we see a lot of this

744
00:43:34,159 --> 00:43:36,639
within Christianity, whether it's pastors

745
00:43:36,639 --> 00:43:39,199
or theologians, or it's not uncommon

746
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,000
for someone to suddenly, without realizing it,

747
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,080
make it about them.

748
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:45,520
And it's a hard thing to pull back from.

749
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,159
That's why scripture talks so much about pride,

750
00:43:49,439 --> 00:43:51,280
which means the most important thing I can do

751
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,399
is lean into not just love, but humility.

752
00:43:55,199 --> 00:43:56,719
I love John 13.

753
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:58,080
It's the story of Jesus

754
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:00,000
when it was like the 11th hour.

755
00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,320
He knew things were about to go down

756
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,199
that were gonna be the most horrendous experience,

757
00:44:05,199 --> 00:44:06,959
not just for him, but for anyone.

758
00:44:07,679 --> 00:44:09,840
And he could have done anything in that moment

759
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:11,120
when he's with his disciples

760
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,439
and wanted to convey the most important things.

761
00:44:13,439 --> 00:44:15,840
And what he choose to do is to humiliate himself,

762
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:17,439
take out his outer garment

763
00:44:17,439 --> 00:44:19,600
and wash their nasty, nasty feet

764
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:20,560
because they were nasty.

765
00:44:21,919 --> 00:44:23,040
And he was doing something

766
00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:24,719
that he should not have been doing.

767
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:26,639
You know, a servant should be doing that

768
00:44:26,639 --> 00:44:28,399
or someone washes their own feet.

769
00:44:28,399 --> 00:44:30,560
And the disciples even pushed back on them.

770
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,239
Peter was like, you can't do this.

771
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,479
But Jesus, after he finishes, says,

772
00:44:34,639 --> 00:44:36,399
you know, I've set an example

773
00:44:36,399 --> 00:44:37,919
that I now want you to follow.

774
00:44:37,919 --> 00:44:39,439
Just as you've seen me do it,

775
00:44:39,439 --> 00:44:40,239
I want you to do it.

776
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:44,239
And he was conveying an example of love and humility.

777
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,800
And so that's how I want to show up.

778
00:44:47,439 --> 00:44:49,840
And, you know, part of what that requires

779
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,120
is releasing my understanding

780
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,520
of what should happen and how it should go.

781
00:44:56,879 --> 00:44:59,520
My mantra for years has been holding things loosely.

782
00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,080
It doesn't mean I can't have my own opinion,

783
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:03,520
but it means I need to be able to do it.

784
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,159
But it means I need to be ready to drop that

785
00:45:06,159 --> 00:45:08,000
if God's doing something different.

786
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,080
But the other piece, and this is what's so hard

787
00:45:10,080 --> 00:45:12,000
for those that are in ministry

788
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,760
or that are pastors,

789
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:20,639
is I have to be okay with it not being about me at all.

790
00:45:20,639 --> 00:45:23,120
That I might not get any credit or acknowledgement

791
00:45:23,679 --> 00:45:26,239
for a lifetime of serving, right?

792
00:45:27,199 --> 00:45:29,600
One of my favorite stories

793
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:30,879
coming from community Bible study,

794
00:45:30,879 --> 00:45:32,080
and this taps into, too,

795
00:45:32,959 --> 00:45:34,560
something that I was just saying

796
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,040
about how we can look at people

797
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,600
who are better Christians or stronger faith

798
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,280
and think we could never arrive there.

799
00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:43,280
In community Bible study,

800
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,959
I call myself a facilitator, not a leader for two reasons.

801
00:45:46,959 --> 00:45:49,600
One, I want everybody to understand that,

802
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:50,719
you know, God and the Holy Spirit,

803
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,239
they're the ones that are leading this.

804
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,159
I'm just here to facilitate.

805
00:45:54,159 --> 00:45:56,479
But two, at any given point,

806
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:58,639
anybody around that table,

807
00:45:58,639 --> 00:46:00,719
no matter what they bring to the table,

808
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,080
can be the one through whom

809
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:03,600
some amazing things happen.

810
00:46:04,159 --> 00:46:06,159
There was one day a woman came in,

811
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:08,080
and she was one of those folks

812
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:10,080
who quickly let us know

813
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,560
that she has never felt welcome in a church.

814
00:46:13,679 --> 00:46:14,639
And she wasn't even sure

815
00:46:14,639 --> 00:46:16,639
why she was walking through our door,

816
00:46:16,639 --> 00:46:17,840
but she saw something

817
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:18,959
and felt like she should come in.

818
00:46:18,959 --> 00:46:21,360
But she was really hesitant,

819
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,520
partly because, and she acknowledged later,

820
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:25,199
that she was high at the time,

821
00:46:25,199 --> 00:46:27,600
and she felt like she shouldn't be there.

822
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:28,800
She wasn't allowed to be there.

823
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:30,959
But everybody in the room

824
00:46:30,959 --> 00:46:33,199
was deeply welcoming and deeply loving.

825
00:46:33,199 --> 00:46:35,040
And she starts sharing this story

826
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:37,600
of how, of not just of addiction,

827
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,520
but the things that she ended up doing

828
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:40,719
because of the addiction.

829
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,840
Choices she made that not only

830
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,560
made her feel so awful about herself,

831
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:50,080
but she felt a bad example to her daughter.

832
00:46:50,639 --> 00:46:52,719
And I'm sitting there,

833
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,040
and one, I had had my plans

834
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:56,239
for what we could talk about,

835
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:57,040
but I held it loosely.

836
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:58,000
I was like, all right,

837
00:46:58,000 --> 00:46:58,959
I guess we're not going

838
00:46:58,959 --> 00:47:00,719
on that Bible passage today.

839
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,280
But two, I felt like I wasn't sure

840
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:04,879
what I'm supposed to say in this moment.

841
00:47:04,879 --> 00:47:06,479
And it was almost like God was saying,

842
00:47:06,479 --> 00:47:08,399
I don't want you to say a thing.

843
00:47:08,399 --> 00:47:10,560
So I just stayed quiet.

844
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:12,159
And then this guy who had been coming

845
00:47:12,159 --> 00:47:13,520
for a couple of months,

846
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:15,600
he's the one who really started

847
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:16,719
to lead the time.

848
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:18,239
And he wasn't trying to lead it,

849
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:19,679
but he resonated with her

850
00:47:19,679 --> 00:47:20,959
because a lot of what she described

851
00:47:20,959 --> 00:47:22,000
was his story as well.

852
00:47:22,639 --> 00:47:24,000
He was able to understand

853
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:25,840
the deeper things

854
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:27,120
she wasn't naming about addiction

855
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:29,040
because he was wrestling with it too.

856
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:30,399
He had just been talking about it

857
00:47:30,399 --> 00:47:31,600
before she had walked in.

858
00:47:32,159 --> 00:47:33,439
And the way he was able

859
00:47:33,439 --> 00:47:35,280
to communicate love to her

860
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:36,320
and value to her

861
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,000
when he got up and gave her a hug,

862
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:40,320
everything he communicated,

863
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,159
it was one of the most beautiful displays

864
00:47:42,159 --> 00:47:43,040
of sharing the gospel

865
00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:43,840
that I had ever seen.

866
00:47:44,479 --> 00:47:45,679
And a lot of times we think

867
00:47:45,679 --> 00:47:46,560
about sharing the gospel.

868
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,399
It's like, here's the specific things

869
00:47:48,399 --> 00:47:49,040
you should say

870
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:50,479
and who you should say it to and why.

871
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:52,320
He didn't have any agenda

872
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:53,520
other than he saw her.

873
00:47:54,159 --> 00:47:56,159
He saw her in a way that I couldn't.

874
00:47:56,159 --> 00:47:58,479
And he loved her genuinely.

875
00:47:58,479 --> 00:48:00,320
And he knew that God loved her.

876
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:02,719
And he just wanted everything within her,

877
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,080
just wanted her to know

878
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,479
that she was actually loved.

879
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:08,800
This is somebody who felt

880
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,520
like he was disqualified for ministry.

881
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:13,679
In fact, there are a lot of churches

882
00:48:13,679 --> 00:48:15,040
and ministries that would say

883
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:16,080
he's disqualified

884
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,159
because he had just gotten out of prison

885
00:48:18,159 --> 00:48:21,280
months before he had things on his record.

886
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,120
He still had addiction issues.

887
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,360
In fact, not long after that,

888
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:26,639
he relapsed, right?

889
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:28,879
Most people would write him off.

890
00:48:29,919 --> 00:48:31,439
God chose to use him.

891
00:48:31,439 --> 00:48:33,520
Not me, not the guy

892
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:35,760
who had been a Christian all his life,

893
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:37,600
who had gone to a Christian university,

894
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:38,479
majored in religion

895
00:48:38,479 --> 00:48:39,679
and Christian ministries,

896
00:48:39,679 --> 00:48:42,479
was facilitating that space.

897
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,280
I was not the one who God chose to use.

898
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:46,959
God chose to use someone

899
00:48:46,959 --> 00:48:48,800
who didn't even think

900
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,360
that he would be the leader that day.

901
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:54,479
And so that wouldn't have happened

902
00:48:54,479 --> 00:48:56,800
if I had come in with pride

903
00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:58,399
or come in with,

904
00:48:58,399 --> 00:49:00,320
this is how we're supposed to do this.

905
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,120
In fact, that space wouldn't exist

906
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:04,479
if I modeled it after

907
00:49:04,479 --> 00:49:06,479
how Bible studies are supposed to go,

908
00:49:06,479 --> 00:49:07,919
because Bible studies

909
00:49:07,919 --> 00:49:08,959
are supposed to be focused,

910
00:49:10,399 --> 00:49:12,399
calm, everyone's paying attention.

911
00:49:12,959 --> 00:49:14,560
That is not the marker of our space.

912
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:16,399
It is one of the most disruptive spaces.

913
00:49:16,399 --> 00:49:17,679
There's cursing in that space.

914
00:49:17,679 --> 00:49:19,679
There's interruptions in that space.

915
00:49:19,679 --> 00:49:22,719
But man, oh man, have I seen God

916
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:25,360
work in beautiful ways in that space.

917
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:26,879
And it's given me a longing

918
00:49:26,879 --> 00:49:30,000
for more spaces that identify as Christian

919
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,360
to model these elements of actual humility,

920
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:34,719
of actual love,

921
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:36,399
of knowing God can work

922
00:49:36,399 --> 00:49:37,679
through whomever he wants.

923
00:49:38,879 --> 00:49:41,280
What a beautiful moment

924
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:42,159
that must have been.

925
00:49:44,879 --> 00:49:46,320
You know, because so often,

926
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:50,080
I think you stated that

927
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:52,959
people looking for a particular verse

928
00:49:52,959 --> 00:49:55,679
or chapter and everything

929
00:49:55,679 --> 00:49:56,959
supposed to be so organized

930
00:49:56,959 --> 00:49:58,719
and put together and clean.

931
00:49:58,719 --> 00:50:00,719
And that's not life.

932
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:03,919
Life isn't always organized and clean.

933
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:06,560
And here was this individual coming

934
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,280
and she was hurting and struggling.

935
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,439
And someone who could relate to her

936
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:17,199
was the voice that reached her that day.

937
00:50:18,159 --> 00:50:21,679
And that's, I think it's a beautiful testament

938
00:50:21,679 --> 00:50:24,000
that we all can be a conduit of God.

939
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,840
We don't always have to have particular words

940
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:32,239
or verses or be a theologian.

941
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:35,600
We can just be kind and show love.

942
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:37,600
Yeah, yeah.

943
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,239
And sometimes, you asked a question earlier

944
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:42,080
around why God allows hardship.

945
00:50:42,959 --> 00:50:44,879
Sometimes it's because he knows

946
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,439
that there is something greater

947
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,239
that's gonna come as a result of it.

948
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:53,760
And that it's a hard thing to hear

949
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,000
because again, a hardship feels bad.

950
00:50:56,959 --> 00:50:59,040
But I'll give you an example of something

951
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:00,800
that I was thinking through recently.

952
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:02,959
There's a hardship that I've been navigating,

953
00:51:02,959 --> 00:51:04,399
that I've been praying and praying and praying.

954
00:51:04,399 --> 00:51:06,719
I mean, for almost decades now,

955
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,199
we've got to deal with it.

956
00:51:09,199 --> 00:51:11,199
It seems like he's having the opposite happen.

957
00:51:11,199 --> 00:51:14,239
And like, it's starting to have impacts

958
00:51:14,879 --> 00:51:16,959
on like just like mental health.

959
00:51:16,959 --> 00:51:21,199
And I was navigating depression earlier this year,

960
00:51:21,199 --> 00:51:22,479
like all this kind of stuff.

961
00:51:22,479 --> 00:51:25,520
And questioning reality at times,

962
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,000
questioning God, like God, I don't know,

963
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:29,600
you're not who I thought you were.

964
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,320
All these things, just deep, deep, low place.

965
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:34,800
And one day I woke up

966
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,360
and I felt like what God was saying was,

967
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,320
as I woke up and prayed, God, can you just help me?

968
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:43,439
I felt like he was saying,

969
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,320
I'm giving you an opportunity to see something

970
00:51:46,879 --> 00:51:48,399
because you said you wanted to learn

971
00:51:48,399 --> 00:51:50,000
what it meant to love others.

972
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:51,760
And I'm giving you an opportunity to see

973
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,320
and experience what others are experiencing daily.

974
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:57,919
Now you're only getting a glimpse.

975
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:03,439
And what struck me is, I did years ago say,

976
00:52:03,439 --> 00:52:06,560
God, I wanna learn what it means, what love means,

977
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:09,439
what it actually means for you to be loved

978
00:52:09,439 --> 00:52:11,840
and for me to love you and for you to love us.

979
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,560
And if he had said to me, okay,

980
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,239
well, here's how I'm gonna reveal it to you.

981
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:18,560
You're gonna go through decades of hardship.

982
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,399
Like I might not have stayed signed on, right?

983
00:52:22,399 --> 00:52:25,280
Like Peter was willing to die for Jesus

984
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:26,560
up until it looked different

985
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:28,239
than what he thought it was gonna look like.

986
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,399
And yet God, his graciousness stayed with me

987
00:52:32,399 --> 00:52:35,760
through this hardship, even as I yelled at him

988
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,919
and complained at him and wrote him off

989
00:52:37,919 --> 00:52:40,159
because, oh, you're still letting this bad thing happen.

990
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,000
He was patiently going with me

991
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,800
because he knew that I really wanted to learn how to love.

992
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,800
And in order to do that, I really needed to learn

993
00:52:47,679 --> 00:52:49,120
what others were experiencing.

994
00:52:49,919 --> 00:52:52,719
And so, there are plenty of hardships that happen

995
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,159
because of choices that we make.

996
00:52:55,199 --> 00:52:56,639
That is true.

997
00:52:56,639 --> 00:52:57,919
There are plenty of hardships that happen

998
00:52:57,919 --> 00:53:00,479
because of choices that others make that impact us.

999
00:53:00,479 --> 00:53:02,399
That is unfortunately very, very true.

1000
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:04,719
And then there are hardships that exist

1001
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:09,719
because there's a lot of brokenness all around us.

1002
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:15,760
But sometimes that hardship isn't to break us,

1003
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:17,199
but to actually equip us

1004
00:53:17,919 --> 00:53:19,919
to do something beyond what we expected.

1005
00:53:19,919 --> 00:53:21,919
I love Ephesians 3.20 that says,

1006
00:53:21,919 --> 00:53:24,479
to him who's able to do immeasurably more

1007
00:53:24,479 --> 00:53:26,239
than all we ask or imagine.

1008
00:53:26,239 --> 00:53:28,000
What we tend to ask and imagine

1009
00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:30,719
is a really comfortable, good life, right?

1010
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:31,760
And that's not bad.

1011
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:32,399
That's not bad.

1012
00:53:32,959 --> 00:53:34,080
But what if God's like,

1013
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:36,159
I want to actually work through you

1014
00:53:36,959 --> 00:53:39,840
to bring joy to others.

1015
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:42,239
But what if those others are folks

1016
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:43,600
that are in hardship, right?

1017
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:45,520
And what if the act of bringing joy

1018
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:47,120
requires that we sit in that hardship?

1019
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:48,399
I think of Mother Teresa

1020
00:53:48,959 --> 00:53:52,080
and she's in the home of the dying, right?

1021
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:55,520
How many prayers did she hear that weren't answered

1022
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:56,959
because the person still died?

1023
00:53:56,959 --> 00:53:59,679
Like what weight she carried,

1024
00:53:59,679 --> 00:54:01,600
having death around her daily,

1025
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,399
having people grieving and mourning around her daily.

1026
00:54:05,199 --> 00:54:07,040
But she knew there was something greater

1027
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:08,239
that she was invited to.

1028
00:54:08,879 --> 00:54:10,479
She gave up the option

1029
00:54:10,479 --> 00:54:12,959
for a comfortable, quiet life in a monastery

1030
00:54:13,679 --> 00:54:16,399
and chose to be in brokenness

1031
00:54:16,399 --> 00:54:17,679
because she suddenly realized

1032
00:54:17,679 --> 00:54:19,600
that life was more than just about her.

1033
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,760
She decided she was gonna give her entire life

1034
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,840
to loving God and loving others.

1035
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,000
And you and I will never know

1036
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:30,800
how many people's lives were impacted

1037
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,159
because of that decision.

1038
00:54:32,159 --> 00:54:33,199
She didn't even know

1039
00:54:33,199 --> 00:54:34,879
how many lives were impacted.

1040
00:54:34,879 --> 00:54:36,479
But that person mourning,

1041
00:54:36,479 --> 00:54:39,120
that's felt her hug, right?

1042
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:40,560
Or her encouraging words.

1043
00:54:41,840 --> 00:54:42,959
Oh, we can't know.

1044
00:54:42,959 --> 00:54:44,399
And so what if we're being invited

1045
00:54:45,199 --> 00:54:47,679
to something similar in our hardships?

1046
00:54:47,679 --> 00:54:49,600
If we prayed and God hasn't taken it away,

1047
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:50,320
maybe he's saying,

1048
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:52,959
I'm with you in this.

1049
00:54:52,959 --> 00:54:53,919
Don't run from this

1050
00:54:53,919 --> 00:54:55,760
because I'm trying to do something greater.

1051
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:59,679
Yeah, it's funny too

1052
00:54:59,679 --> 00:55:01,679
because sometimes I like to picture God

1053
00:55:01,679 --> 00:55:03,679
as like a parent who eye rolls,

1054
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:06,239
like, oh my God,

1055
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:07,520
like she's just not getting it.

1056
00:55:09,199 --> 00:55:13,840
You know, and I think sometimes,

1057
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:15,919
like you stated,

1058
00:55:15,919 --> 00:55:16,959
like, I love what you said

1059
00:55:16,959 --> 00:55:19,199
about the hardship that you're going through.

1060
00:55:19,199 --> 00:55:20,080
God puts you there

1061
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:21,600
so you can see what others go through.

1062
00:55:22,879 --> 00:55:25,360
It wasn't necessarily to make your life harder

1063
00:55:26,719 --> 00:55:28,560
or to make your journey more difficult,

1064
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,120
but to shift who you were

1065
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,000
and to love deeper

1066
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,239
and to see others in a different way.

1067
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:38,000
Everybody.

1068
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:43,360
And that's not as easy as you can attest to.

1069
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:48,080
It's not easy to get to, you know?

1070
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:52,479
And as I listen to you talk,

1071
00:55:55,919 --> 00:55:56,800
I have to wonder,

1072
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:58,320
like when you do all these things,

1073
00:55:58,320 --> 00:56:01,439
whether it's the books or your ministry

1074
00:56:01,439 --> 00:56:02,639
or your podcast,

1075
00:56:04,159 --> 00:56:06,959
you know, do you ever get to a point

1076
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:08,959
where you're like,

1077
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:11,199
you know, I'm just like,

1078
00:56:11,199 --> 00:56:13,520
I don't know if I have any more to give you ever.

1079
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:14,879
I mean, do you ever get to that point?

1080
00:56:14,879 --> 00:56:16,159
Because I mean,

1081
00:56:16,159 --> 00:56:19,280
hearing about how the financial struggles

1082
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:20,399
and raising a family,

1083
00:56:21,280 --> 00:56:22,479
you know, I mean,

1084
00:56:22,479 --> 00:56:24,879
you are one human being,

1085
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:27,300
you know?

1086
00:56:27,699 --> 00:56:28,739
Yeah, yeah.

1087
00:56:28,739 --> 00:56:30,580
No, the answer is often.

1088
00:56:33,060 --> 00:56:34,020
And the good news is,

1089
00:56:34,020 --> 00:56:34,899
and I've learned this,

1090
00:56:34,899 --> 00:56:36,580
is I'm in good company

1091
00:56:36,580 --> 00:56:38,979
because that's the story of many in scripture.

1092
00:56:38,979 --> 00:56:40,659
Like we think that if you're doing

1093
00:56:40,659 --> 00:56:41,620
what God wants you to do,

1094
00:56:41,620 --> 00:56:43,300
then things are gonna work out.

1095
00:56:44,580 --> 00:56:46,179
But one of my books is called

1096
00:56:48,100 --> 00:56:49,300
I Have Had Enough, Lord.

1097
00:56:49,300 --> 00:56:50,979
It's one of my earlier ones.

1098
00:56:50,979 --> 00:56:52,979
And it's based on the story of Elijah.

1099
00:56:52,979 --> 00:56:55,060
And the very short version is Elijah was a prophet.

1100
00:56:55,060 --> 00:56:56,100
So he was living for God.

1101
00:56:56,100 --> 00:56:57,139
He was hearing from God.

1102
00:56:57,780 --> 00:56:59,939
He saw God do miraculous things.

1103
00:57:01,300 --> 00:57:02,820
Incredibly miraculous things.

1104
00:57:02,820 --> 00:57:03,939
And then after one of the most

1105
00:57:03,939 --> 00:57:05,699
incredibly miraculous things,

1106
00:57:07,060 --> 00:57:11,219
the queen decides to send people to kill him.

1107
00:57:12,500 --> 00:57:13,459
And he is just done.

1108
00:57:14,020 --> 00:57:14,659
And he goes,

1109
00:57:14,659 --> 00:57:16,739
and he basically collapses before God.

1110
00:57:16,739 --> 00:57:17,379
And he says,

1111
00:57:17,379 --> 00:57:18,580
I have had enough, Lord.

1112
00:57:18,580 --> 00:57:19,699
Take my life.

1113
00:57:19,699 --> 00:57:21,540
Like he was done.

1114
00:57:22,500 --> 00:57:23,860
You don't say take my life

1115
00:57:23,860 --> 00:57:25,620
if you're just like a splinter.

1116
00:57:25,780 --> 00:57:26,260
He was like,

1117
00:57:26,260 --> 00:57:28,340
I had nothing left to give.

1118
00:57:29,219 --> 00:57:30,659
And God met him in that place.

1119
00:57:30,659 --> 00:57:32,580
And he fed him, gave him a nap,

1120
00:57:32,580 --> 00:57:33,699
fed him again, gave him a nap.

1121
00:57:33,699 --> 00:57:34,419
And then he said,

1122
00:57:35,300 --> 00:57:37,860
all right, now follow me.

1123
00:57:37,860 --> 00:57:40,340
And he walked for 40 days to this mountain.

1124
00:57:40,899 --> 00:57:41,699
And for those,

1125
00:57:42,500 --> 00:57:44,020
some folks might've heard this passage

1126
00:57:44,020 --> 00:57:46,659
where he experiences God in this way

1127
00:57:46,659 --> 00:57:49,780
where there's this earthquake that comes through

1128
00:57:49,780 --> 00:57:51,139
and this fire that comes through

1129
00:57:51,139 --> 00:57:52,260
and these big things come through.

1130
00:57:52,260 --> 00:57:53,540
And every time it says,

1131
00:57:53,540 --> 00:57:54,580
but God wasn't in that,

1132
00:57:54,580 --> 00:57:55,939
but then there is this whisper.

1133
00:57:56,659 --> 00:57:58,340
And that's where God was.

1134
00:57:58,340 --> 00:58:00,340
And this guy who had already heard from God

1135
00:58:00,340 --> 00:58:02,340
experiences God in this new way.

1136
00:58:02,340 --> 00:58:04,979
But this was after his breaking point,

1137
00:58:04,979 --> 00:58:05,860
after his end point,

1138
00:58:05,860 --> 00:58:06,739
after he had already,

1139
00:58:06,739 --> 00:58:08,739
he knew without a doubt

1140
00:58:08,739 --> 00:58:10,260
that there was nothing left.

1141
00:58:10,260 --> 00:58:13,379
And yet somehow he was able to keep going.

1142
00:58:14,100 --> 00:58:15,219
I've often been at that point

1143
00:58:15,219 --> 00:58:16,580
where I'm like, God, I've had enough.

1144
00:58:16,580 --> 00:58:17,139
I'm done.

1145
00:58:17,139 --> 00:58:18,100
I've got nothing left.

1146
00:58:18,100 --> 00:58:20,179
Sometimes in just like frustration,

1147
00:58:20,179 --> 00:58:23,540
sometimes in like pretty near hopelessness.

1148
00:58:23,540 --> 00:58:25,379
And yet there's always been something within me

1149
00:58:25,379 --> 00:58:29,060
that was not going to give up,

1150
00:58:29,060 --> 00:58:30,500
even if it's the smallest,

1151
00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:31,459
again, toe nudge,

1152
00:58:32,419 --> 00:58:35,219
this resolve to not give up on God.

1153
00:58:35,780 --> 00:58:40,500
But last year I had no strength or capacity.

1154
00:58:40,500 --> 00:58:43,139
And that's when I wrote 12 of my books.

1155
00:58:43,139 --> 00:58:45,219
I ended up doing this year of books

1156
00:58:45,219 --> 00:58:47,060
where I self-published a book a month.

1157
00:58:47,699 --> 00:58:49,699
I did not have any capacity to do that.

1158
00:58:49,699 --> 00:58:51,860
But what I did have the capacity to do

1159
00:58:51,860 --> 00:58:53,540
is wake up each day

1160
00:58:53,540 --> 00:58:55,540
and just step as best I could.

1161
00:58:55,540 --> 00:58:56,820
And God brought the rest.

1162
00:58:56,820 --> 00:58:58,500
And I was surprised by all of it.

1163
00:58:59,139 --> 00:59:00,500
But that being said,

1164
00:59:00,500 --> 00:59:01,459
many of those books

1165
00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:05,060
are honest explorations of like hardship.

1166
00:59:05,939 --> 00:59:07,300
One of the last ones was,

1167
00:59:08,179 --> 00:59:09,540
How Long, O Lord,

1168
00:59:09,540 --> 00:59:10,979
based on David's Psalm,

1169
00:59:10,979 --> 00:59:12,020
where he's like,

1170
00:59:12,020 --> 00:59:12,739
how long, O Lord,

1171
00:59:12,739 --> 00:59:14,500
will you forget me forever?

1172
00:59:14,500 --> 00:59:16,739
How long will you hide your face from me?

1173
00:59:16,739 --> 00:59:18,500
Like I was feeling that way,

1174
00:59:18,500 --> 00:59:20,260
even as I was experiencing God.

1175
00:59:20,260 --> 00:59:22,260
And so, absolutely.

1176
00:59:22,260 --> 00:59:23,939
I have gotten to the end of myself

1177
00:59:24,979 --> 00:59:26,899
so, so, so many times.

1178
00:59:26,899 --> 00:59:29,060
But where I am limited,

1179
00:59:29,060 --> 00:59:30,580
I've learned God is limitless.

1180
00:59:31,300 --> 00:59:33,459
Where I lack understanding,

1181
00:59:33,459 --> 00:59:34,500
God is all knowing.

1182
00:59:35,379 --> 00:59:37,939
God has actually shown himself as God and good,

1183
00:59:37,939 --> 00:59:39,620
even when I still struggle

1184
00:59:39,620 --> 00:59:40,659
to be able to tell you how.

1185
00:59:41,300 --> 00:59:44,020
But the fact that I'm able to keep going,

1186
00:59:44,659 --> 00:59:47,139
knowing that I shouldn't still be going,

1187
00:59:47,139 --> 00:59:49,939
is itself a testament to God's ability

1188
00:59:50,899 --> 00:59:51,699
to work and move.

1189
00:59:51,699 --> 00:59:52,179
But again,

1190
00:59:52,179 --> 00:59:53,699
he's doing something immeasurably more

1191
00:59:53,699 --> 00:59:55,459
than I'm asking for, imagining.

1192
00:59:55,459 --> 00:59:56,979
And so, even though

1193
00:59:56,979 --> 00:59:58,020
I would absolutely love

1194
00:59:58,020 --> 00:59:59,139
for one of my books

1195
00:59:59,139 --> 01:00:01,540
to be discovered by an influencer,

1196
01:00:01,540 --> 01:00:03,219
who then gets me a million sales.

1197
01:00:03,219 --> 01:00:04,340
And then, you know,

1198
01:00:04,340 --> 01:00:05,459
I can move my family out

1199
01:00:05,459 --> 01:00:06,820
to a house by the water

1200
01:00:06,820 --> 01:00:09,699
and just write and hang out with people

1201
01:00:09,699 --> 01:00:10,979
and pray with people,

1202
01:00:12,020 --> 01:00:13,219
without worrying about money.

1203
01:00:13,219 --> 01:00:14,179
I'd love that.

1204
01:00:14,179 --> 01:00:15,459
He hasn't shown that.

1205
01:00:15,459 --> 01:00:16,899
It's been the opposite,

1206
01:00:16,899 --> 01:00:17,939
more expensive.

1207
01:00:18,739 --> 01:00:20,260
But, and yet,

1208
01:00:20,820 --> 01:00:22,659
he's inviting me to just trust him,

1209
01:00:22,659 --> 01:00:24,659
that he sees something

1210
01:00:24,659 --> 01:00:26,739
in this particular journey

1211
01:00:26,739 --> 01:00:28,020
that will be worth it.

1212
01:00:29,379 --> 01:00:32,500
And my invitation is to still be honest

1213
01:00:32,500 --> 01:00:34,500
with him about my understanding of it,

1214
01:00:34,500 --> 01:00:35,699
but to not lean on it

1215
01:00:35,699 --> 01:00:36,899
and to choose to trust him

1216
01:00:37,459 --> 01:00:40,100
and to step when he says to step.

1217
01:00:41,300 --> 01:00:42,820
I love that.

1218
01:00:42,820 --> 01:00:44,419
Because one thing that I've been listening

1219
01:00:44,419 --> 01:00:45,620
to you speak,

1220
01:00:45,780 --> 01:00:47,699
you speak of like small things,

1221
01:00:47,699 --> 01:00:49,219
like having a mustard seed of faith,

1222
01:00:50,739 --> 01:00:52,739
you know, and taking the small steps.

1223
01:00:54,419 --> 01:00:58,340
And I have to feel sometimes

1224
01:00:58,340 --> 01:01:00,580
that as people,

1225
01:01:01,939 --> 01:01:04,179
regardless of religious beliefs,

1226
01:01:04,179 --> 01:01:05,379
we look for big things.

1227
01:01:06,419 --> 01:01:09,219
The big steps, the big patterns,

1228
01:01:09,219 --> 01:01:10,260
the big signs.

1229
01:01:10,979 --> 01:01:12,979
And from what I'm hearing for you is that

1230
01:01:13,540 --> 01:01:16,100
it starts on a much smaller scale.

1231
01:01:18,100 --> 01:01:18,899
And we look for,

1232
01:01:18,899 --> 01:01:19,780
even if we just believe

1233
01:01:19,780 --> 01:01:21,459
just the size of a mustard seed,

1234
01:01:21,459 --> 01:01:22,580
it's better than all the knowledge

1235
01:01:22,580 --> 01:01:26,820
that one could have of theology.

1236
01:01:26,820 --> 01:01:28,419
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

1237
01:01:29,939 --> 01:01:32,260
Jesus talks about faith like a child.

1238
01:01:32,260 --> 01:01:33,699
And, you know, we think about

1239
01:01:34,340 --> 01:01:35,699
how a child engages the world

1240
01:01:35,699 --> 01:01:38,899
and how content they are in situations

1241
01:01:38,899 --> 01:01:40,179
that we as adults

1242
01:01:40,340 --> 01:01:43,300
might be focused on frustration or anxiety.

1243
01:01:44,739 --> 01:01:46,899
We have just added on so many things,

1244
01:01:46,899 --> 01:01:47,780
where as a child,

1245
01:01:47,780 --> 01:01:49,379
it can operate with simplicity.

1246
01:01:50,580 --> 01:01:52,100
No, I think it's beautiful.

1247
01:01:52,100 --> 01:01:53,939
I mean, because even though you speak

1248
01:01:53,939 --> 01:01:55,379
of having financial hardship,

1249
01:01:56,100 --> 01:01:58,179
you wrote 12 books

1250
01:01:58,179 --> 01:01:59,780
and published 12 books in one year,

1251
01:02:00,979 --> 01:02:01,699
which is,

1252
01:02:02,580 --> 01:02:03,459
and anyone who's gone

1253
01:02:03,459 --> 01:02:04,820
through financial hardship knows,

1254
01:02:04,820 --> 01:02:07,379
it's hard to focus on anything else but that.

1255
01:02:08,020 --> 01:02:08,500
You know?

1256
01:02:08,739 --> 01:02:09,300
You're not like,

1257
01:02:09,300 --> 01:02:10,100
I want to sit down

1258
01:02:10,100 --> 01:02:11,620
and write a bestseller right now.

1259
01:02:11,620 --> 01:02:13,459
Like you're trying,

1260
01:02:13,459 --> 01:02:14,659
you have a family to feed,

1261
01:02:14,659 --> 01:02:15,459
bills to pay.

1262
01:02:15,459 --> 01:02:15,959
Yeah.

1263
01:02:16,659 --> 01:02:19,699
But still you trusted God's voice to you

1264
01:02:19,699 --> 01:02:20,659
to write these books

1265
01:02:22,260 --> 01:02:23,860
without knowing where it was going to lead.

1266
01:02:24,419 --> 01:02:24,919
Yeah.

1267
01:02:25,620 --> 01:02:26,120
Yeah.

1268
01:02:26,979 --> 01:02:28,580
And still not knowing, too.

1269
01:02:29,300 --> 01:02:30,100
No, no.

1270
01:02:30,100 --> 01:02:30,600
And...

1271
01:02:32,340 --> 01:02:32,899
No, go ahead.

1272
01:02:33,780 --> 01:02:35,459
Because some of those,

1273
01:02:35,459 --> 01:02:37,060
I thought, oh, this is going to be

1274
01:02:37,139 --> 01:02:39,300
the way that God brings financial provision.

1275
01:02:39,300 --> 01:02:40,580
Like this book here,

1276
01:02:40,580 --> 01:02:41,860
like this is going to be the one.

1277
01:02:41,860 --> 01:02:43,219
And then when it wasn't, I was like,

1278
01:02:43,219 --> 01:02:44,419
well, God, what were you doing?

1279
01:02:46,020 --> 01:02:46,820
But then like,

1280
01:02:47,379 --> 01:02:50,020
I might hear a singular comment

1281
01:02:50,020 --> 01:02:51,219
from someone that had met them

1282
01:02:51,219 --> 01:02:52,340
at just the right time.

1283
01:02:52,979 --> 01:02:54,899
And I'm able to realize the value.

1284
01:02:54,899 --> 01:02:56,580
But I do need to say this,

1285
01:02:57,139 --> 01:02:59,620
is that itself is still a bonus.

1286
01:03:00,260 --> 01:03:01,699
Because if I actually

1287
01:03:02,419 --> 01:03:03,699
want to treat God as God,

1288
01:03:04,340 --> 01:03:06,179
then that means that I need to be willing

1289
01:03:06,340 --> 01:03:07,379
to live for Him

1290
01:03:07,379 --> 01:03:11,139
even if I get nothing in response, right?

1291
01:03:11,139 --> 01:03:12,899
Because He doesn't owe me anything.

1292
01:03:13,939 --> 01:03:16,100
So that means my actual invitation

1293
01:03:16,100 --> 01:03:17,459
is if He invites me to write a book

1294
01:03:17,459 --> 01:03:19,860
and then I never see any fruit from it,

1295
01:03:19,860 --> 01:03:20,899
any money from it,

1296
01:03:20,899 --> 01:03:22,020
any praise from it,

1297
01:03:22,020 --> 01:03:23,139
any encouragement from it,

1298
01:03:23,139 --> 01:03:25,540
like I should still be willing to do that.

1299
01:03:25,540 --> 01:03:26,659
But God and His love

1300
01:03:26,659 --> 01:03:29,620
often does still provide these moments

1301
01:03:29,620 --> 01:03:32,260
where I can see how He's using these things.

1302
01:03:32,820 --> 01:03:34,179
But even that I've got to hold loosely,

1303
01:03:34,179 --> 01:03:35,300
the why is this happening?

1304
01:03:36,020 --> 01:03:37,459
I may never know until eternity.

1305
01:03:39,459 --> 01:03:41,139
And you have a new book coming out

1306
01:03:41,860 --> 01:03:43,459
in a couple of months, don't you?

1307
01:03:43,459 --> 01:03:44,020
I do.

1308
01:03:45,139 --> 01:03:46,659
Something in the frost?

1309
01:03:46,659 --> 01:03:49,379
Yeah, this one's different in every way.

1310
01:03:50,020 --> 01:03:51,379
The biggest difference

1311
01:03:51,379 --> 01:03:54,260
is all my other books I've self-published

1312
01:03:54,260 --> 01:03:55,699
through Kindle Direct Publishing,

1313
01:03:56,260 --> 01:03:56,979
which I love.

1314
01:03:56,979 --> 01:03:58,820
It's free, it's easy.

1315
01:03:59,379 --> 01:04:00,820
I can do it on my own timeline.

1316
01:04:01,300 --> 01:04:02,340
This is being published

1317
01:04:02,340 --> 01:04:03,780
through Morgan James Publishing.

1318
01:04:05,060 --> 01:04:08,979
In the time that it's taken from me to write it

1319
01:04:09,540 --> 01:04:11,540
to when it will be officially released,

1320
01:04:12,179 --> 01:04:15,540
I have written so far 16,

1321
01:04:15,540 --> 01:04:17,379
self-published 16 books

1322
01:04:17,379 --> 01:04:20,419
in the time that professionally publishing it has taken.

1323
01:04:20,979 --> 01:04:22,739
So it's been a revealing process.

1324
01:04:22,739 --> 01:04:26,100
But this one has the least amount of writing

1325
01:04:26,659 --> 01:04:28,419
because on appearance,

1326
01:04:28,419 --> 01:04:31,219
it looks like just a coffee table book

1327
01:04:31,219 --> 01:04:33,459
that the core of it is.

1328
01:04:34,500 --> 01:04:37,939
It's filled with pictures of random coffee froth,

1329
01:04:37,939 --> 01:04:39,780
just random coffee froth

1330
01:04:39,780 --> 01:04:41,379
that then when you flip the page,

1331
01:04:41,379 --> 01:04:43,939
you see the image that I found in it.

1332
01:04:43,939 --> 01:04:45,780
Hence, something in the froth.

1333
01:04:45,780 --> 01:04:46,739
And it could be everything

1334
01:04:46,739 --> 01:04:49,060
from like a little water unicorn

1335
01:04:49,060 --> 01:04:50,899
to a bodybuilding mouse

1336
01:04:50,899 --> 01:04:52,899
to a den full of bears.

1337
01:04:54,340 --> 01:04:57,540
And it stems from a game

1338
01:04:57,540 --> 01:04:59,060
that my friend Scott and I used to play

1339
01:04:59,060 --> 01:04:59,780
called the Doodle Game,

1340
01:04:59,780 --> 01:05:00,979
where during class,

1341
01:05:00,979 --> 01:05:02,419
we would distract ourselves

1342
01:05:03,060 --> 01:05:04,500
by scribbling on a piece of paper

1343
01:05:04,500 --> 01:05:05,780
and then sliding the piece of paper

1344
01:05:05,780 --> 01:05:06,659
to the other person.

1345
01:05:06,659 --> 01:05:09,139
And now that person has to find something in the doodle.

1346
01:05:09,860 --> 01:05:11,620
And we would do this often.

1347
01:05:11,620 --> 01:05:14,419
And I loved it because I began to realize

1348
01:05:14,419 --> 01:05:18,100
there's a deeper life value in that.

1349
01:05:18,100 --> 01:05:19,860
Because just like I can find something

1350
01:05:19,860 --> 01:05:21,139
in this random coffee froth,

1351
01:05:21,939 --> 01:05:25,060
what if I'm able to use that same approach

1352
01:05:25,780 --> 01:05:27,459
to the messiness of life?

1353
01:05:27,459 --> 01:05:30,659
And because I believe that we're made in God's image

1354
01:05:30,659 --> 01:05:32,340
and because he's a creator,

1355
01:05:32,659 --> 01:05:34,419
that means we're made in the image of a creator,

1356
01:05:34,419 --> 01:05:37,139
which means that we all have creativity within us.

1357
01:05:37,139 --> 01:05:39,379
For some people, it looks like traditional creativity.

1358
01:05:39,939 --> 01:05:41,620
But for all of us,

1359
01:05:41,620 --> 01:05:44,500
it's the ability to see and create

1360
01:05:45,060 --> 01:05:47,300
where there's seemingly nothing.

1361
01:05:47,300 --> 01:05:49,219
And so my hope with this book

1362
01:05:49,219 --> 01:05:52,580
is that not only will people find joy and smiles

1363
01:05:52,580 --> 01:05:55,379
and just enjoy the book for what it is visually,

1364
01:05:56,340 --> 01:05:58,659
they have an invitation to practice it themselves

1365
01:05:59,219 --> 01:06:01,139
and then to take that into everyday life.

1366
01:06:01,139 --> 01:06:04,580
And as we talked about, we all navigate hardships.

1367
01:06:04,580 --> 01:06:06,739
And it is so easy to see the hardships

1368
01:06:07,300 --> 01:06:08,659
simply for what they look like.

1369
01:06:08,659 --> 01:06:09,939
They are hardships.

1370
01:06:10,580 --> 01:06:15,060
But what if God has given us this innate creativity

1371
01:06:15,620 --> 01:06:18,179
to look at even the most daunting of situations

1372
01:06:18,179 --> 01:06:21,540
and find purpose in it, find value in it?

1373
01:06:21,540 --> 01:06:23,939
It's all this shift of perspective

1374
01:06:23,939 --> 01:06:26,500
that seems to come at a cost

1375
01:06:26,500 --> 01:06:28,340
because it can put us at risk.

1376
01:06:28,340 --> 01:06:29,300
We can be afraid of,

1377
01:06:29,300 --> 01:06:32,820
what if I try to be optimistic and everything falls apart?

1378
01:06:32,820 --> 01:06:34,340
But that's part of the journey as well.

1379
01:06:34,340 --> 01:06:38,580
And so that comes out on August 11th.

1380
01:06:38,580 --> 01:06:40,179
It's available for pre-order.

1381
01:06:40,739 --> 01:06:43,379
But really, really, really my hope for it is

1382
01:06:45,300 --> 01:06:51,139
that it does give people a new approach to life,

1383
01:06:51,139 --> 01:06:52,739
an encouraging approach to life.

1384
01:06:54,260 --> 01:06:56,340
Outside of that, I don't know what God's gonna do.

1385
01:06:56,340 --> 01:06:57,939
Will this be a source provision?

1386
01:06:57,939 --> 01:06:58,500
I don't know.

1387
01:07:00,020 --> 01:07:01,540
But I'm holding it loosely,

1388
01:07:02,340 --> 01:07:04,820
trusting that he knows what he is doing.

1389
01:07:06,020 --> 01:07:08,340
I did, there's a preview on your website.

1390
01:07:09,780 --> 01:07:12,260
And I did, it is a beautiful illustration.

1391
01:07:12,260 --> 01:07:13,620
The pictures are beautiful.

1392
01:07:14,659 --> 01:07:15,219
Thank you.

1393
01:07:15,219 --> 01:07:15,699
It is.

1394
01:07:15,699 --> 01:07:17,860
And I like the meaning behind it,

1395
01:07:17,860 --> 01:07:19,459
seeing something more than what's there.

1396
01:07:21,139 --> 01:07:21,780
You know, I think,

1397
01:07:23,379 --> 01:07:24,979
how powerful is it that you,

1398
01:07:24,979 --> 01:07:26,100
there's not a lot of words,

1399
01:07:26,899 --> 01:07:31,620
but the message is still very profound in it.

1400
01:07:31,620 --> 01:07:31,939
Yeah.

1401
01:07:31,939 --> 01:07:35,060
And what's really funny is someone would look at that

1402
01:07:35,060 --> 01:07:36,500
and think, oh, Paul's an artist.

1403
01:07:37,300 --> 01:07:39,540
No, I don't feel like I'm good at drawing at all.

1404
01:07:39,540 --> 01:07:43,139
Like if I, the cover is this little water unicorn

1405
01:07:43,139 --> 01:07:44,500
looking thing with wings.

1406
01:07:44,500 --> 01:07:46,020
If someone had asked me to draw that,

1407
01:07:46,020 --> 01:07:47,379
I don't know that I could have.

1408
01:07:48,179 --> 01:07:50,260
The only reason I was able to sketch the things

1409
01:07:50,260 --> 01:07:54,500
that I sketch is I had this basis on the froth,

1410
01:07:54,500 --> 01:07:56,419
the light and dark spots, bubbles,

1411
01:07:56,419 --> 01:07:58,580
and a willingness to be creative.

1412
01:07:58,580 --> 01:08:00,020
But there are people that could sketch

1413
01:08:00,020 --> 01:08:01,459
far more beautiful things.

1414
01:08:01,459 --> 01:08:02,899
Put another way, I never would have

1415
01:08:04,020 --> 01:08:05,540
published a drawing book.

1416
01:08:06,580 --> 01:08:08,820
So that's not the authority I'm coming in with this.

1417
01:08:09,540 --> 01:08:12,020
All I'm doing is coming with creativity.

1418
01:08:12,020 --> 01:08:15,060
And I say that to say, this could be true for others.

1419
01:08:15,060 --> 01:08:18,259
We have our traditional things that we see as valuable,

1420
01:08:18,259 --> 01:08:19,220
ways to operate.

1421
01:08:19,779 --> 01:08:23,299
But God has given all of us an authority somewhere.

1422
01:08:23,299 --> 01:08:24,899
Something that we bring to the table.

1423
01:08:25,540 --> 01:08:28,020
And when we discover that,

1424
01:08:28,020 --> 01:08:31,140
what we are uniquely equipped to do,

1425
01:08:31,140 --> 01:08:32,819
who we are uniquely equipped to be,

1426
01:08:33,459 --> 01:08:35,620
that means all of us can find a space

1427
01:08:35,620 --> 01:08:37,299
where we bring value.

1428
01:08:37,939 --> 01:08:39,299
So I encourage people in that

1429
01:08:39,299 --> 01:08:41,060
because this is not something I ever thought

1430
01:08:41,060 --> 01:08:43,060
I would publish, but here we are.

1431
01:08:43,060 --> 01:08:45,859
No, and it is fun.

1432
01:08:45,859 --> 01:08:46,500
It is fun.

1433
01:08:46,500 --> 01:08:48,259
It is a fun book.

1434
01:08:48,259 --> 01:08:49,939
And I think it's very thought provoking.

1435
01:08:51,540 --> 01:08:52,500
I do, I like it.

1436
01:08:54,180 --> 01:08:57,459
And I hope it brings you a lot of success,

1437
01:08:57,459 --> 01:08:58,740
whatever that looks like for you.

1438
01:08:58,740 --> 01:09:01,859
Yeah, I will say it is,

1439
01:09:02,979 --> 01:09:04,740
I'm excited because a lot of my books

1440
01:09:04,740 --> 01:09:07,299
are niche books that aren't for everybody.

1441
01:09:07,939 --> 01:09:11,140
But this is like, man, all ages could like this.

1442
01:09:11,140 --> 01:09:13,459
Anybody who likes looking at fun stuff

1443
01:09:13,459 --> 01:09:14,740
makes great Christmas gifts.

1444
01:09:14,740 --> 01:09:16,740
You're like, I don't know what to get Uncle Bill

1445
01:09:16,740 --> 01:09:17,700
and get him this book.

1446
01:09:18,979 --> 01:09:20,819
You know, I used to work at Starbucks

1447
01:09:20,819 --> 01:09:23,459
and I could picture this book easily,

1448
01:09:24,100 --> 01:09:27,939
like in like local coffee shops or libraries.

1449
01:09:29,220 --> 01:09:30,979
That's part of my hope

1450
01:09:30,979 --> 01:09:32,740
is to reach out to local coffee shops

1451
01:09:32,740 --> 01:09:36,180
and even give them like free ebook cards

1452
01:09:36,180 --> 01:09:37,859
that they can give away with purchases.

1453
01:09:37,859 --> 01:09:39,299
So stay tuned, folks.

1454
01:09:39,299 --> 01:09:40,500
Maybe your local coffee shop

1455
01:09:40,500 --> 01:09:41,700
will have a free ebook.

1456
01:09:42,580 --> 01:09:44,180
No, that would be amazing to like walk

1457
01:09:44,180 --> 01:09:45,540
into like my local coffee shop

1458
01:09:45,540 --> 01:09:46,419
and see your book there.

1459
01:09:46,419 --> 01:09:47,140
I would love that.

1460
01:09:47,700 --> 01:09:48,200
Yeah.

1461
01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:51,959
Are there any last words of,

1462
01:09:54,200 --> 01:09:55,959
I don't know, encouragement

1463
01:09:55,959 --> 01:09:58,759
or for anyone who's struggling with anything?

1464
01:09:59,319 --> 01:10:00,120
Yeah, yeah.

1465
01:10:01,799 --> 01:10:06,439
Yeah, I think a word of encouragement

1466
01:10:06,439 --> 01:10:10,040
and a word of challenge to different folks.

1467
01:10:10,040 --> 01:10:11,080
The word of encouragement

1468
01:10:11,080 --> 01:10:12,520
for those that are struggling,

1469
01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:15,479
that feel like you're at the end of yourself,

1470
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:17,240
that you have nothing to offer,

1471
01:10:17,240 --> 01:10:19,319
that hopelessness reigns.

1472
01:10:20,200 --> 01:10:21,319
One, I want to validate,

1473
01:10:21,319 --> 01:10:24,839
like a lot of that stuff is just,

1474
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:28,439
there's a reality to the hardships we experience

1475
01:10:28,439 --> 01:10:29,560
and how we experience them.

1476
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:32,200
And sometimes our emotions

1477
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:35,959
and our perception are dismissed or minimized

1478
01:10:35,959 --> 01:10:37,720
because somebody hasn't experienced it

1479
01:10:37,720 --> 01:10:39,000
or they don't believe it

1480
01:10:39,000 --> 01:10:40,359
or they don't think it's productive.

1481
01:10:41,399 --> 01:10:42,600
So I want to name that,

1482
01:10:42,600 --> 01:10:46,120
but also say that's not the end of the story.

1483
01:10:47,399 --> 01:10:48,520
I really do believe,

1484
01:10:49,640 --> 01:10:50,600
there's a passage that said,

1485
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:52,759
what man meant for evil, God used for good.

1486
01:10:53,399 --> 01:10:55,479
I do believe God knows what he's doing.

1487
01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:58,040
What's so hard is it doesn't mesh

1488
01:10:58,040 --> 01:10:59,640
with our here and now logic

1489
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:02,040
and doesn't mesh with our here and now desires.

1490
01:11:02,680 --> 01:11:05,879
But I do believe that when we lean in

1491
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:08,279
to who God is and what he is doing

1492
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:12,040
and choose to step or at least toe-nudge forward,

1493
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:13,399
I think there will come a point

1494
01:11:13,399 --> 01:11:14,839
where we will be able to look back

1495
01:11:14,839 --> 01:11:17,000
and see his genius in doing it,

1496
01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:17,560
in how he did.

1497
01:11:18,279 --> 01:11:20,520
All of us love movies

1498
01:11:21,799 --> 01:11:23,879
that have tension and hardship in them

1499
01:11:23,879 --> 01:11:27,479
because it makes the story more profound

1500
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:28,919
and more robust,

1501
01:11:28,919 --> 01:11:30,919
but we don't like it in our lives, right?

1502
01:11:30,919 --> 01:11:33,319
But I think we'll be able to look back

1503
01:11:33,319 --> 01:11:35,000
and see the purpose and the value

1504
01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:37,640
to so many things that we thought

1505
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:39,240
had no purpose and had no value

1506
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:41,160
and could not in any way be good.

1507
01:11:41,160 --> 01:11:43,000
Our definition of good, in other words,

1508
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:44,520
is going to be rewritten one day

1509
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:47,160
when we can more fully see

1510
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:48,279
and understand reality.

1511
01:11:49,879 --> 01:11:51,319
The word of challenge is for those

1512
01:11:51,319 --> 01:11:52,520
that feel like they are

1513
01:11:52,520 --> 01:11:54,279
on the other side of hardship,

1514
01:11:54,279 --> 01:11:57,080
that they feel like

1515
01:11:57,080 --> 01:11:58,839
they're not navigating addiction

1516
01:11:58,839 --> 01:12:01,319
or they're not doing this, that, or the other.

1517
01:12:01,319 --> 01:12:03,000
The word of challenge is it's very easy

1518
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:05,560
for us to get stuck in our bubble mindsets,

1519
01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:08,120
to get stuck at our own limited understanding.

1520
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:09,240
And as a result,

1521
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:10,520
whether we realize it or not,

1522
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:12,839
we can look down on others.

1523
01:12:12,839 --> 01:12:14,439
We can dismiss others.

1524
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:16,520
We can fail to show love to others.

1525
01:12:18,120 --> 01:12:21,000
You know, when scripture calls us to love,

1526
01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:23,479
and even just human nature invites us to love,

1527
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:26,759
part of our journey is to understand

1528
01:12:26,759 --> 01:12:28,200
how deep that actually is,

1529
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:30,839
that it's not just letting people get away with things

1530
01:12:30,839 --> 01:12:32,680
or being nice to people or smiling people.

1531
01:12:32,680 --> 01:12:34,120
Those can be elements of it,

1532
01:12:34,120 --> 01:12:35,080
but it's much deeper.

1533
01:12:35,080 --> 01:12:36,839
It comes down to the core of,

1534
01:12:36,839 --> 01:12:39,560
do we actually believe this person has value?

1535
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:41,720
That's the core question.

1536
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:44,520
Because if we do believe that somebody has value,

1537
01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:47,160
it's going to impact how we engage with them.

1538
01:12:47,720 --> 01:12:49,879
And so that's what I would challenge people in,

1539
01:12:49,879 --> 01:12:51,879
is in your interactions,

1540
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:55,959
what could it look like to make space to say,

1541
01:12:55,959 --> 01:12:57,479
this person has value

1542
01:12:57,479 --> 01:12:59,720
and therefore is deserving of love?

1543
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:01,399
And then in even a small way,

1544
01:13:01,399 --> 01:13:02,120
lean into that.

1545
01:13:03,959 --> 01:13:04,600
I love that.

1546
01:13:04,600 --> 01:13:05,560
I love that challenge.

1547
01:13:05,560 --> 01:13:08,120
I think it's a challenge we could all lean into.

1548
01:13:08,680 --> 01:13:10,359
You know, I mean,

1549
01:13:10,359 --> 01:13:11,319
whether we like it or not,

1550
01:13:11,319 --> 01:13:13,160
we all get judgment sometimes,

1551
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:17,799
or put our expectations on other people or situations.

1552
01:13:17,799 --> 01:13:18,680
It's true.

1553
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:22,359
And that's a very, very hard challenge

1554
01:13:22,359 --> 01:13:25,399
to take our lens off and look through the lens of God.

1555
01:13:26,439 --> 01:13:28,120
And I love that.

1556
01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:29,720
Yeah. And it's the type of challenge

1557
01:13:29,720 --> 01:13:32,120
we need to plan to not perfect,

1558
01:13:32,120 --> 01:13:33,560
because that's how we treat everything else.

1559
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:35,240
You can be an expert in things.

1560
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:37,080
I can guarantee this is a challenge

1561
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:39,160
that to your dying breath,

1562
01:13:39,160 --> 01:13:41,160
you're still going to need to be learning

1563
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:42,279
what that looks like.

1564
01:13:42,279 --> 01:13:43,560
And that is okay.

1565
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:45,319
That is by like God,

1566
01:13:45,319 --> 01:13:46,120
it's in the design.

1567
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:47,959
God knows that we're going to struggle with it.

1568
01:13:48,919 --> 01:13:51,160
He just wants us to not give up struggling with it.

1569
01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:54,200
As long as you keep showing up,

1570
01:13:54,200 --> 01:13:54,700
you know,

1571
01:13:55,399 --> 01:13:59,399
and what I believe what our best looks different every day.

1572
01:13:59,399 --> 01:14:00,040
Yeah. Yeah.

1573
01:14:00,759 --> 01:14:02,120
You know, and,

1574
01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:04,600
you know, as long as you keep trying,

1575
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:07,319
even just to show up better than we did yesterday,

1576
01:14:07,319 --> 01:14:08,120
even if we get it wrong,

1577
01:14:08,120 --> 01:14:09,080
as long as we tried,

1578
01:14:09,720 --> 01:14:13,080
I think there's a beauty in that

1579
01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:14,120
because we didn't give up.

1580
01:14:14,680 --> 01:14:15,720
Yeah. Yeah.

1581
01:14:16,439 --> 01:14:17,799
And I am curious,

1582
01:14:17,799 --> 01:14:20,439
you've mentioned several scriptures.

1583
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:24,839
Is there one that is particularly your favorite?

1584
01:14:26,279 --> 01:14:26,779
Yeah.

1585
01:14:27,959 --> 01:14:30,040
I go between two,

1586
01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:31,720
but the one that

1587
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:35,160
I find myself thinking about the most

1588
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:37,720
is one that I referenced earlier

1589
01:14:37,720 --> 01:14:39,080
is Ephesians 3.20.

1590
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:42,279
To him who is able to do immeasurably more

1591
01:14:42,279 --> 01:14:43,959
than we ask or imagine

1592
01:14:43,959 --> 01:14:45,799
because of the power at work within us.

1593
01:14:46,680 --> 01:14:47,399
And so again,

1594
01:14:47,399 --> 01:14:50,040
like getting myself to a place

1595
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:51,399
where I acknowledge that

1596
01:14:51,399 --> 01:14:53,319
what I'm asking for and imagining,

1597
01:14:53,319 --> 01:14:54,600
it's not that it's bad.

1598
01:14:54,600 --> 01:14:56,680
It's just profoundly limited,

1599
01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:59,399
even though I think it's the best idea ever,

1600
01:14:59,399 --> 01:15:00,839
but it is profoundly limited

1601
01:15:00,839 --> 01:15:04,279
compared to God's creative ability to do more.

1602
01:15:04,279 --> 01:15:06,839
But then the comfort in that last piece

1603
01:15:06,839 --> 01:15:08,359
because of the power at work within us,

1604
01:15:08,359 --> 01:15:10,759
it's not even a matter of me figuring it out

1605
01:15:10,759 --> 01:15:12,200
or implementing things well.

1606
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:14,040
It's this power within me,

1607
01:15:14,040 --> 01:15:15,479
this Holy Spirit, Jesus said,

1608
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:17,399
I'm sending an advocate and an helper.

1609
01:15:17,399 --> 01:15:18,520
Like I don't,

1610
01:15:18,520 --> 01:15:20,359
I'm not alone in figuring out

1611
01:15:20,359 --> 01:15:21,479
how to function in life.

1612
01:15:22,759 --> 01:15:24,759
I also love Proverbs 3, 5, and 6.

1613
01:15:25,560 --> 01:15:27,799
Trust in the Lord with all your heart

1614
01:15:27,799 --> 01:15:29,640
and do not lean on your own understanding

1615
01:15:29,640 --> 01:15:30,919
and all your ways submit to him

1616
01:15:30,919 --> 01:15:32,359
and he will set your path straight

1617
01:15:33,399 --> 01:15:34,680
because it's not saying

1618
01:15:34,680 --> 01:15:36,359
that our understanding is bad.

1619
01:15:37,399 --> 01:15:38,839
It's acknowledging we have understanding,

1620
01:15:38,839 --> 01:15:40,520
but it's saying, don't lean on that

1621
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:42,759
because again, it's very limited.

1622
01:15:42,759 --> 01:15:44,279
We can get fooled easily.

1623
01:15:44,279 --> 01:15:45,959
We can get misled easily.

1624
01:15:45,959 --> 01:15:48,839
But if we choose to trust who God is

1625
01:15:48,839 --> 01:15:50,120
with all of our heart,

1626
01:15:50,120 --> 01:15:51,479
which is again a process

1627
01:15:52,040 --> 01:15:53,640
and then in all our ways,

1628
01:15:53,640 --> 01:15:55,319
submit to him, basically defer,

1629
01:15:55,319 --> 01:15:56,359
you're God and I'm not.

1630
01:15:57,479 --> 01:15:58,839
He will set our path straight.

1631
01:15:59,959 --> 01:16:01,560
And man, that's what we want.

1632
01:16:01,560 --> 01:16:03,319
We just, can I know the path

1633
01:16:03,319 --> 01:16:04,439
I'm supposed to walk on?

1634
01:16:05,319 --> 01:16:07,479
He lets us know what that looks like.

1635
01:16:08,479 --> 01:16:10,120
I love that.

1636
01:16:10,919 --> 01:16:12,839
This has been a very,

1637
01:16:13,399 --> 01:16:15,080
very nice conversation with you, Paul.

1638
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:16,600
I enjoyed it.

1639
01:16:16,600 --> 01:16:18,680
I think it's been very, very much needed

1640
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:20,279
in these times that we're in.

1641
01:16:22,839 --> 01:16:24,759
And I appreciate your time today.

1642
01:16:24,759 --> 01:16:25,720
I really do.

1643
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:26,919
We touched on a lot of things.

1644
01:16:26,919 --> 01:16:29,319
We went all over the place.

1645
01:16:29,319 --> 01:16:30,759
We did, we did.

1646
01:16:30,759 --> 01:16:31,399
And I think sometimes

1647
01:16:31,399 --> 01:16:32,919
those are like the best conversations.

1648
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:36,200
So thank you so much

1649
01:16:36,200 --> 01:16:37,240
for joining me today.

1650
01:16:37,799 --> 01:16:39,799
I really had, it was a pleasure

1651
01:16:39,799 --> 01:16:41,479
and an honor to talk

1652
01:16:42,279 --> 01:16:44,040
not only about your faith journey,

1653
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:45,479
but your ministry.

1654
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:47,000
You shared a little bit about us

1655
01:16:47,000 --> 01:16:47,879
with your family,

1656
01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:50,200
your upcoming book,

1657
01:16:51,000 --> 01:16:52,279
your books, your podcast.

1658
01:16:52,279 --> 01:16:53,080
You shared a little bit

1659
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:55,319
of all of you with us.

1660
01:16:55,319 --> 01:16:57,560
And it's really nice

1661
01:16:59,080 --> 01:17:00,279
to get to know you a little bit.

1662
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:04,120
And so to those who wants

1663
01:17:04,120 --> 01:17:05,319
to get to know Paul more,

1664
01:17:05,879 --> 01:17:08,520
explore his work, his books,

1665
01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:11,240
his podcast, his website

1666
01:17:11,240 --> 01:17:13,560
is wheredidyouseegod.com.

1667
01:17:14,359 --> 01:17:15,319
And while you're there,

1668
01:17:15,319 --> 01:17:17,080
you can take a nice preview

1669
01:17:17,080 --> 01:17:18,279
of his upcoming book,

1670
01:17:18,279 --> 01:17:19,240
Something in the Froth.

1671
01:17:20,359 --> 01:17:21,799
It's available for pre-order

1672
01:17:22,759 --> 01:17:24,919
and it features creative images

1673
01:17:24,919 --> 01:17:26,439
and latte foam.

1674
01:17:26,439 --> 01:17:27,720
And that will be released

1675
01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:29,640
on August 11th.

1676
01:17:30,839 --> 01:17:31,720
And on his website,

1677
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:32,759
you can also find out

1678
01:17:32,759 --> 01:17:34,200
more about his podcast,

1679
01:17:34,759 --> 01:17:36,359
Where Did You See God?

1680
01:17:36,359 --> 01:17:37,879
It's a beautiful podcast.

1681
01:17:37,879 --> 01:17:38,759
I recommend everyone

1682
01:17:38,759 --> 01:17:39,959
take a listen to it.

1683
01:17:39,959 --> 01:17:40,919
There's a lot of episodes

1684
01:17:40,919 --> 01:17:41,479
to go through.

1685
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:42,120
There's something

1686
01:17:42,120 --> 01:17:43,720
for everybody there, I believe.

1687
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:45,879
And you can learn

1688
01:17:45,879 --> 01:17:47,799
about his work

1689
01:17:47,799 --> 01:17:49,000
with the Youth with a Mission

1690
01:17:49,000 --> 01:17:49,799
in Virginia,

1691
01:17:50,359 --> 01:17:52,120
the New Vision Civic League.

1692
01:17:54,279 --> 01:17:55,080
No job titles,

1693
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:55,560
so you're not going

1694
01:17:55,560 --> 01:17:56,359
to find job titles.

1695
01:17:56,919 --> 01:17:59,640
But you are definitely

1696
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:00,600
someone on a mission.

1697
01:18:00,600 --> 01:18:01,479
And I thank you for all

1698
01:18:01,479 --> 01:18:02,439
the work that you do

1699
01:18:04,120 --> 01:18:04,839
and how you show up

1700
01:18:04,839 --> 01:18:05,799
for your community

1701
01:18:05,799 --> 01:18:07,080
and just in the world.

1702
01:18:07,799 --> 01:18:08,680
I have no doubt that

1703
01:18:08,680 --> 01:18:09,640
even though you don't see it,

1704
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:10,680
you are making a difference.

1705
01:18:11,720 --> 01:18:12,200
I appreciate it.

1706
01:18:12,200 --> 01:18:13,160
So thank you, Paul.

1707
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:14,439
Yeah, thank you for creating

1708
01:18:14,439 --> 01:18:16,040
a space to share.

1709
01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:17,240
I'm really grateful.

1710
01:18:17,959 --> 01:18:18,680
Thank you.

1711
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:20,520
And, you know, as always,

1712
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:22,600
anyone, you can find me,

1713
01:18:23,160 --> 01:18:24,359
Kat, you are on my website

1714
01:18:24,359 --> 01:18:25,160
you can find me,

1715
01:18:25,879 --> 01:18:26,680
Kat, you work on

1716
01:18:26,680 --> 01:18:28,520
all major platforms.

1717
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:29,799
All my links will be

1718
01:18:29,799 --> 01:18:31,319
in the show notes for Paul,

1719
01:18:31,319 --> 01:18:32,279
as well as myself.

1720
01:18:33,319 --> 01:18:34,520
It's all going to be one spot.

1721
01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:36,359
You can find

1722
01:18:37,000 --> 01:18:38,279
are you on social media, Paul?

1723
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:41,720
Yeah, Facebook and Instagram

1724
01:18:42,759 --> 01:18:44,520
at where did you see God?

1725
01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:45,640
And there's a TikTok

1726
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:46,680
for something in the froth.

1727
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:48,439
But I'm trying to get back

1728
01:18:48,439 --> 01:18:49,240
into doing that.

1729
01:18:49,240 --> 01:18:50,919
I tried to avoid TikTok

1730
01:18:50,919 --> 01:18:51,799
for a long time.

1731
01:18:51,799 --> 01:18:53,000
And I don't blame you.

1732
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:55,879
I don't blame you.

1733
01:18:56,520 --> 01:18:59,479
But Paul is out there.

1734
01:18:59,479 --> 01:19:00,680
And the best way to find him

1735
01:19:00,680 --> 01:19:01,959
would be to be on his website,

1736
01:19:01,959 --> 01:19:03,479
where did you see God dot com.

1737
01:19:05,240 --> 01:19:06,200
And please follow us

1738
01:19:06,200 --> 01:19:07,720
on social media for snippets

1739
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:08,680
and show updates.

1740
01:19:09,399 --> 01:19:11,479
And until we talk again,

1741
01:19:12,359 --> 01:19:13,160
please remember,

1742
01:19:13,720 --> 01:19:14,839
you don't have to carry

1743
01:19:14,839 --> 01:19:16,200
what you came from.

1744
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:18,520
And please keep telling your story

1745
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:19,879
because you never know

1746
01:19:19,879 --> 01:19:20,680
who you will help.

1747
01:19:21,720 --> 01:19:22,759
And Paul is definitely

1748
01:19:22,759 --> 01:19:23,319
proof of that.

1749
01:19:24,040 --> 01:19:25,399
So thank you, Paul.

1750
01:19:25,959 --> 01:19:27,640
And we will see you next time.