Leading with Self‑Awareness

WEBVTT

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What we would say is that, you know, that most of the work we do is based on

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this idea that self-awareness increases our impact, right?

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So the more I know about myself, the more I know about the ways that I show

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up, whether that's, you know, around the dinner table with my family or around

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a boardroom table, the more I know about how I show up, the more I can control how I show up, uh.

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Kurt Busch is a certified internal family systems practitioner,

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a trauma-informed coach, and co-founder of Brimstone Coaching Group.

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With a background spanning corporate leadership, pastoral ministry,

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and coaching, Kurt helps leaders break free from self-doubt,

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embrace authenticity, and lead with confidence.

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Having overcome his own struggles with imposter syndrome, Kurt is passionate

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about guiding others through transformational growth and into authentic leadership.

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Through Brimstone's unique E plus R equals T approach, which we will talk about,

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Kurt equips individuals and

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teams to move from exhaustion and frustration to clarity and wholeness.

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He is also the co-host of the Brimstone Coaching Podcast, where he and his coaching

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partner explore leadership,

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personal growth and breaking through barriers and with that i will welcome kurt hi kurt,

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hey katherine it's uh good to be here thanks for the invite your thank you for

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being here did i miss anything in in that brief intro that you wanted to add.

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No i think you hit it all that's a very gracious introduction thank you for

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reading all of that it's ridiculous how much you had to read I'm sorry about

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that but no you did not miss a thing,

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no okay well I mean it's there's a lot there and I think it's all important to mention um.

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I would like to start with maybe some.

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Definitions of some things to kind of lay a groundwork if that's okay yeah could

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you um in your own words tell us what an internal family systems practitioner,

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and a trauma-informed coach is,

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yes so real real briefly without getting too nerdy because i can tend to nerd out on these things.

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Internal family systems theory is a theory it's not my theory this is a a theory

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that's much older than me.

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It's a theory that says that while we have oneself, while we are one person,

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oneself, we are made up of internal parts.

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And those internal parts are like siblings.

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And, and they, like we as oneself have the opportunity to listen to those parts,

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to receive those parts, to, to, to put those parts aside, to,

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to set them aside, whatever it is, we have those opportunities,

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just like a, just like a family would.

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If you've ever seen the movies Inside Out and Inside Out 2, those are Disney

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movies. Have you seen those, Catherine? Yes, yes, yes.

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That is Internal Family Systems Theory 101.

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That is exactly what those movies are based on.

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And they do a phenomenal job of explaining what Internal Family Systems Theory is.

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And I'm certified in Internal Family Systems Theory, and that plays into a lot

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of the work we do with a lot of our clients.

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Trauma informed, it's a little bit different. I am not a licensed therapist

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or a licensed counselor.

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So we think of two types of trauma, a licensed therapist, a licensed counselor

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would deal with big T trauma, which are these catastrophic life-changing events

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that happen to some of us.

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But we would say that all of us have what we call little T trauma, which are moments.

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Where we learn that maybe the world isn't safe or maybe, you know,

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looking embarrassed in front of our classmates isn't safe or it's risky.

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These are moments that influence us, but are probably not catastrophic, life-changing events.

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And we believe those little T trauma moments hang on into adulthood,

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and we work to kind of disrupt and dismantle those with our clients.

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Okay. Thank you for those definitions, because I feel sometimes we hear a lot

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of words and phrases and titles, and we can kind of add our own script to what they mean.

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Yeah. I just like to get a basis of what they actually mean to you.

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Yeah. And can you tell us a little bit about your time in the corporate world,

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and how you kind of got to where you are today?

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Yeah, for sure. Thanks for asking, Catherine. I started like, I have a weird story.

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I have such a weird story.

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Out of high school, I didn't go to a four-year university. I went to a trade

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school. That didn't work out.

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That's a story for another question. I think that story has a lot of meaning,

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a lot of impact in my life.

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But out of that not working out, I found myself in a manufacturing plant.

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I was like 21. I was super young, didn't know what I was doing.

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And shortly into that journey, I found myself in some leadership roles that

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I probably had no business being in at the time.

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Really great. I found myself with some really great mentors in that season,

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some really great people that helped me kind of learn my way,

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kind of learn what I was doing.

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I spent about 10 years working in a manufacturing plant. I would say six to

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seven of those. I was a production supervisor or an HR generalist.

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I I I supervised a team of about 12 people for a short time and then I did labor

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recruiting and benefits administration that sort of stuff as well I I loved my time.

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I still look back on that time with a lot of fondness with a lot of gratitude,

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For the people that I worked with for what I got to do But then from there I

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found myself in seminary.

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I went to seminary late in life I was in my 30s with a family took some online

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courses to get my master's of divinity degree I agree.

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Then I pastored a church for a couple of years. I was an associate pastor for a couple of years.

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Then I relocated my family to launch a second campus of a really large church in December of 2019.

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We launched a campus on January 1st of 2020, which if you remember, 2020 was not a lot of fun.

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Not a great year, no. Not a great year. Perfect time to launch a second campus of a church.

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So so i i spent the next five years working working to create culture in a new church plant,

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trying to trying to pour into leaders help leaders lead well and and that was really a season where,

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i learned like i don't want to go back to 2020 for anything but i learned that

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that that i really loved the work of helping my volunteer leaders in this church

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i i loved helping them navigate their own anxiety.

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I loved helping them understand how to show up, not forgetting what's going

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on in the world around them, but being able to hold the tension of all the heaviness

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and still be able to lead well.

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And I just, I loved it. I love that work. So in 2024, I called a good friend

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of mine who I've done some coaching work with previously. I said,

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hey, let's start a coaching practice and coach full-time. And he said, nope.

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And I said, well, that's a bummer.

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And he called 45 minutes later and said i changed my mind let's do it so that's

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how that's how i've gotten to this point katherine i love that nope.

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Would you say has faith always been a part of your life or did you find it later in life?

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Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. I don't always know how to answer this.

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I would say, I mean, I grew up in a family where we went to church every Sunday,

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youth group on Wednesday nights, sometimes most Sundays, twice,

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twice on Sundays, we would go to church.

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Most Sundays, my, my parents were custodians at our church, like,

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like part-time custodians. So I spent a lot of time like putting up chairs and

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tables for events. Like that's a deeply formative time of my life.

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But, but I, I would say it probably wasn't, it probably wasn't until my twenties

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where I like actually realized that, that, that, that I didn't really know what

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even my faith was or could be.

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I, I, I think I probably just always approached it as like, this is just what we do.

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So, so I don't always want to answer that other than, than I would say in my

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twenties, my sort of faith became more real for me, for Kurt.

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You know, like that's a time of life where things are up in the air and things

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are kind of crazy and unknown and kids are happening and marriage is happening.

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And yeah, so, so I, I, I think, I don't know that I answered your question,

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but I would say probably from my twenties, it just became a lot more real for me.

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Well, no, I think that makes sense because it seems like you had a lot going

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on in your life. You're in a corporate position taking on sort of challenging roles.

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So that would kind of, and families happening. And that would make sense that

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you're looking for something more to kind of complete that picture for you. Yeah.

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And tell us a little bit, you really touched on that you're in the corporate world.

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For those that have never been in the corporate world, what is that like in

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terms of pressure and expectation and how you start to kind of view the world from more of a,

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almost like a numbers kind of production kind of standpoint?

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Yeah, that's a good question. Thanks for asking it.

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I always like to say, too, I I haven't been in a manufacturer like I think I

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have a handle on the corporate world, but I I stepped away from that job in

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2016 or 2015, 2015 or 2016 numbers run together, Catherine.

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But but the world has changed so much. I mean, I remember like we were just

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beginning to have conversations around like smartphone policies,

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you know, like how do we deal with social media?

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Like we were just beginning to have these conversations. So I am,

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I am present how different the world is today than it was even 10 years ago.

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But, but yeah, I mean, there is a, a pressure that is unlike,

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well, that's not true. There's a similar pressure in the kind of nonprofit world,

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but the pressure looks a lot like constant metrics.

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And, and I remember feeling like these are metrics that I can't really control.

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Sure i i supervise a team of 12 people that have to have production goals which

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production goals are good right but at the end of the day like,

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machines break you know people call in sick whatever it is and,

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those those goals are largely out of my hands as a supervisor and yet the pressure

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is there every single day to walk into a room and see well you're not meeting

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your goals today figure it out.

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And that's not to say anybody around me was doing a bad job that's i think that

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That was my experience in the manufacturing world is it's just so KPI,

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key performance indicators, so KPI driven.

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That it's just it's easy to lose sight of the human, the human aspect of thing.

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It's also really hard to shut it off at the end of the day.

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I happened to work in a plant that ran 24-7 that never shut down unless there

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was a catastrophic event.

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And yeah, I mean, calls and texts at all hours of the day, days off,

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all the things. And it's easy to let boundaries go and it's easy to not be present

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in the places where I need to be present.

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All because the pressure of meeting those goals is just really high.

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I imagine at some point some of that will obviously like you said carry into

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your personal life because you're never off and especially in a plant that's

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24 7 i imagine even when you're off shifts you're not really off because your

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mind is still kind of there.

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Yeah pressure kind of can pour over into your personal life at some point i imagine,

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it does it does and and you know i i wasn't at that time in my life i was not very self-aware right,

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i hadn't done the the emotional health work that i've done since i was pretty unaware of myself so so,

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i i did like i wanted to succeed i wanted to be viewed well i didn't want to

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be you know i didn't want to be the one in the conference room being asked why

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didn't you make your goals every day so,

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i i would blow blow by my boundaries pretty quickly i think it would be different

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for me today like you know i i think the work we do with a lot of people is

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to try to understand like how do we hold boundaries and perform at a high level but,

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i just i just had none of that when i was doing it,

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no and i imagine you you'll hear a lot about i think especially now even more

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so is like corporate burnout,

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people are just and imagine with

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all this stuff with ai and everything people are just kind of at their.

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You know, kind of their wits end with even attempting to keep up with anything.

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Yeah. So I don't wonder why even back 10 years ago, why you got out of it.

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Yeah. It, you know, I mean, I, I think we, we talk a lot about in our coaching

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practice, we talk a lot about burnout. And I think one of the questions we always

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ask is how much of burnout is related to like energy and effort and how much

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of it is related to alignment.

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You know can can we sustain a higher,

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a bigger plate if you will like a bigger plate of effort and energy and hold more,

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you know like literal time doing work without getting burnout if it's aligned

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with who and how we want to be and and our gifts and our passions and our desires,

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you know like is is burnout just about working too much or is burnout,

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something deeper about alignment with the work we're doing,

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now that's a very important question because you hear that,

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a lot what is burnout how is it just working too much isn't that working correctly,

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is it as you've spoken about on your podcast not coming from a place of authenticity,

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yeah kind of losing your side of who you are,

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in the process of trying to lead others,

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And I do want to circle back a little bit to your ministry.

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How does your ministry, how does that influence your coaching and how you balance things in your life?

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Yeah, that's a great question. Thanks for asking it. And you've probably seen

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our coaching practice is not explicitly faith-based.

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My coaching partner and I, we both happen to be ordained ministers.

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So you know i think there is obviously an influence i think what we would say

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unequivocally the reason that we do the work is because we believe that we are created for,

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right we we would say this to anybody we're created for right relationships with ourselves with,

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creator whatever whoever we would call creator our neighbors and all of creation

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like We believe wholeheartedly that that's our design as humans.

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And so we think that that is the basis for why we do the work.

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That influences why we feel so

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strongly about it. That's what we desire in ourselves and for our clients.

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And we don't think that that has to be connected to a particular faith tradition to be effective.

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That there is work that anybody can do from any faith tradition to be more whole

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and more full and more authentic and live the lives that we're designed to live.

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Even if we're not explicitly connecting it to our faith traditions.

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So we do always say like, we obviously can't separate our heart for it and our

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basis for why we believe it's important. Like that is grounded in our faith

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and what we believe about faith.

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And we don't think it's limited to people who share our same faith background.

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No, it's interesting because you come from a place of faith and when it sounds like purpose...

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But your coaching is not specifically faith-based. Yeah.

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And I think that's a beautiful way to approach it.

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Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot of really nerdy theological things I could say right

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now, Catherine, that would make it— that, like, I'm trying so hard not to be

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the nerdy theologian on the call.

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But we just really do believe that the work is good, no matter the faith tradition.

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So we, we can't really separate it in our minds as, as like our,

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our heartbeat and why we get out of bed every day to do the work.

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But, but we just really genuinely believe that, that there is work to be done

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for everybody, no matter, no matter how they come at it.

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Yeah. Cause you don't necessarily have to believe in your faith.

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It seems like as long as you believe in something outside of yourself,

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that it comes, that, that helps, helps your leadership. Would that be correct?

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Yeah, I don't even know if we would say that. You know, I think what we would

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say is that, you know, that most of the work we do is based on this idea that

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self-awareness increases our impact.

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Right. So the more I know about myself, the more I know about the ways that

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I show up, whether that's, you know, around the dinner table with my family

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or around a boardroom table, the more I know about how I show up,

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the more I can control how I show up.

00:17:45.958 --> 00:17:51.328
So really we base most of our work on self-awareness and growing that self-awareness.

00:17:54.038 --> 00:17:57.698
I'm not sure that I would say publicly that someone has to have any sort of

00:17:57.698 --> 00:18:00.421
fake tradition to find benefit in our work.

00:18:01.238 --> 00:18:05.513
Yeah, I'm not sure that I would connect those two for like, for like the client

00:18:05.513 --> 00:18:09.203
on a micro level. That's fair. I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

00:18:10.543 --> 00:18:12.583
No, that's okay. It's great. I don't mind being put on the spot,

00:18:12.583 --> 00:18:19.633
Catherine. Now, going back to that phone call that you made with your business

00:18:19.633 --> 00:18:24.517
partner, what was like the switch that was like, I want to do this?

00:18:25.933 --> 00:18:27.423
Well, that's a good question.

00:18:28.903 --> 00:18:33.343
So, so his name is Chris. Chris Godforson, he and I, we met in seminary.

00:18:33.663 --> 00:18:38.883
So today we've known each other for over a decade and he and I have,

00:18:39.663 --> 00:18:44.943
we've done some work for some kind of third party self-awareness processes where

00:18:44.943 --> 00:18:49.410
we've kind of gotten to work and coach together through a third party process.

00:18:49.876 --> 00:18:53.223
So, so we'd been doing this work. We like to say we did this work separately,

00:18:53.223 --> 00:18:57.672
but together for, I don't know, four or five years before that phone call happened.

00:18:58.530 --> 00:19:03.795
We, you know, we're really close friends. We have a shared language around the self-awareness work.

00:19:04.242 --> 00:19:08.370
And, and he, he's a little older than me. He's a full-time pastor.

00:19:09.233 --> 00:19:15.568
I was, I was in a season where I had to make a decision on a transition into,

00:19:15.905 --> 00:19:19.243
you know, maybe another church or coaching full-time.

00:19:19.661 --> 00:19:23.303
And, and I knew the decision I was going to make. I knew that it was time to

00:19:23.303 --> 00:19:24.953
transition out of my pastoral role.

00:19:25.307 --> 00:19:29.093
And, and honestly, Catherine, for me, it was, I love this guy,

00:19:29.093 --> 00:19:30.593
Chris, he's one of my best friends.

00:19:30.593 --> 00:19:33.853
And I want to do this work with him because I know he's good at it.

00:19:34.108 --> 00:19:38.783
And I, you know, I know there's a need for it and I know that we together are

00:19:38.783 --> 00:19:41.763
good at it. And I mean, who doesn't want to do something with one of their best friends?

00:19:42.953 --> 00:19:49.198
So, so I think his no was I'm a full-time pastor he's got grandkids

00:19:49.581 --> 00:19:53.543
you know it's a lot to start a business together and i think his no was i think

00:19:53.543 --> 00:19:57.703
his no was his default i think he defaults to saying no knowing that he can

00:19:57.703 --> 00:20:00.153
go back and say yes later so he doesn't over commit.

00:20:01.573 --> 00:20:06.373
So i think part part of the no was like i just say no to things so i can think about them,

00:20:07.493 --> 00:20:10.853
no that's fair because you probably took him like kind of off guard like certainly,

00:20:11.553 --> 00:20:14.095
start a coaching practice yeah yeah,

00:20:14.844 --> 00:20:20.615
and when you were putting together your coaching practice brimstones what was

00:20:20.743 --> 00:20:25.813
you have a unique approach that i want to i want to touch on the e plus r equals t,

00:20:26.704 --> 00:20:31.302
was that a joint effort to come up with that how did that come about,

00:20:32.243 --> 00:20:35.324
Yeah, I honestly don't know how it came. I'll tell you, Catherine,

00:20:35.324 --> 00:20:38.114
we both hate math. So I don't know why we made this equation.

00:20:38.114 --> 00:20:43.084
Like, we just hate math. So I'm not sure why we put it in a form of an equation.

00:20:43.084 --> 00:20:47.214
But it did sort of naturally, it actually came out as we were writing our book.

00:20:47.934 --> 00:20:53.874
We have a book that we've released and in the process of writing it we saw this kind of clear natural,

00:20:54.431 --> 00:20:59.794
progression of a framework that said when we have an encounter in life we can

00:20:59.794 --> 00:21:04.604
reflect on it and that will lead to transformation and and it did it did sort

00:21:04.604 --> 00:21:07.584
of happen organically just with the two of us kind of writing our book and putting

00:21:07.584 --> 00:21:08.991
stuff down on paper together.

00:21:10.154 --> 00:21:14.434
I like i like i like the equation though math aside i i'm not a fan of math

00:21:14.434 --> 00:21:20.874
myself i'm not um but encounter plus reflection equals transformation it's very

00:21:20.874 --> 00:21:22.712
simple but it's very profound,

00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:28.398
Yeah. Yeah, we think so. And, and, and I think in the vein of your first question,

00:21:28.398 --> 00:21:32.158
we like to define encounter a little bit because words matter and everybody

00:21:32.158 --> 00:21:33.635
uses words a little differently.

00:21:34.298 --> 00:21:39.608
We think of an encounter as anything that happens in our day that maybe shocks

00:21:39.608 --> 00:21:44.553
us or surprises us or causes us to react in ways that maybe we don't prefer.

00:21:45.144 --> 00:21:49.138
You know, maybe this is the email that we get that causes us to like close our

00:21:49.138 --> 00:21:54.108
laptop and walk away. Or maybe it's, you know, getting cut off in traffic.

00:21:54.108 --> 00:21:58.275
Or maybe it's a hard conversation with a supervisor. Those are encounters.

00:21:59.199 --> 00:22:02.502
And they drive us again to respond in ways we don't prefer.

00:22:03.418 --> 00:22:07.468
We think we have dozens of those every day, that if we if we look really closely,

00:22:07.468 --> 00:22:08.745
we have dozens of those a day.

00:22:09.279 --> 00:22:14.748
The invitation then the real magic, I guess, and I hate the word magic.

00:22:14.748 --> 00:22:19.560
It's not magic. It's hard work. But the magic of the equation is in the reflection.

00:22:20.367 --> 00:22:25.998
Many of us don't don't reflect. Well, I for a number of years never would stop

00:22:25.998 --> 00:22:30.427
and reflect on how things are going. How is my life going? How are my responses?

00:22:30.932 --> 00:22:35.091
We think when those encounters happen, the best thing to do is to pause.

00:22:35.364 --> 00:22:39.474
Maybe it's in the moment. Maybe it's 10 minutes later. Maybe it's the next day.

00:22:40.338 --> 00:22:44.448
And to ask some questions like what happened? Who was involved?

00:22:44.448 --> 00:22:46.980
What did I feel? What did I do?

00:22:47.518 --> 00:22:50.869
And maybe the most important question is if that encounter was to happen again.

00:22:52.258 --> 00:22:54.155
Would I want to respond differently?

00:22:54.470 --> 00:23:00.797
And we think that the magic is that once we see the answer to those questions, we can't unsee them.

00:23:02.059 --> 00:23:06.958
We can ignore them, but we can't unsee them. And that not being able to unsee,

00:23:06.958 --> 00:23:12.688
we think, is what leads most adult leaders to choose a different response next

00:23:12.688 --> 00:23:16.306
time, which then is transformation happening in real time.

00:23:17.076 --> 00:23:23.810
It seems like it almost creates like a pause. Yes. 100% Catherine. That is spot on.

00:23:25.116 --> 00:23:28.266
And I think that's important. I've never worked in the corporate world,

00:23:28.266 --> 00:23:31.736
but from what's your description of the corporate world, there's not a lot of

00:23:31.736 --> 00:23:34.633
time to pause or there's not a lot of pauses encouraged.

00:23:35.357 --> 00:23:38.826
Yeah, I think that's right. I think the last part, the way you said that in

00:23:38.826 --> 00:23:43.409
that last little bit is most accurate, that there's not a lot of encouragement to pause.

00:23:44.536 --> 00:23:49.778
I think what's true, most of us, not everybody, but most of us can,

00:23:50.184 --> 00:23:55.333
you know, put five or 10 minutes on our calendar and have like a blocked out five or 10.

00:23:55.606 --> 00:23:59.766
We think reflection can just be five or 10 minutes. If, if a person's never

00:23:59.766 --> 00:24:02.990
reflected before and never intentionally created that space,

00:24:03.257 --> 00:24:04.702
five or 10 minutes is okay.

00:24:05.236 --> 00:24:09.404
And most of us, whether it's on a, in a commute in our car,

00:24:09.898 --> 00:24:15.026
whether it's at a lunch break or whatever it is most of us can find five or

00:24:15.026 --> 00:24:20.306
ten minutes but certainly we are not encouraged to or certainly we are encouraged

00:24:20.306 --> 00:24:22.913
to believe that if we do we're going to get behind,

00:24:23.425 --> 00:24:27.656
or if we do pause somebody else is going to take my spot or whatever it is but

00:24:28.034 --> 00:24:32.019
yes i i think you're spot on katherine and i i like you,

00:24:32.928 --> 00:24:36.347
I really do like encounter plus reflection equals transformation,

00:24:36.672 --> 00:24:40.056
because that seems like it can be applied not only to the leadership world,

00:24:40.631 --> 00:24:42.669
but just to your personal life.

00:24:43.348 --> 00:24:46.998
Yeah. On a day-to-day basis. Yeah, thanks for putting it like that,

00:24:46.998 --> 00:24:48.998
Catherine. I think that's really, really wise.

00:24:49.678 --> 00:24:53.995
We define leader as simply anybody who has somebody following them.

00:24:54.657 --> 00:24:59.254
And if that's all leader means, we really believe everybody leads something.

00:25:00.718 --> 00:25:04.218
Whether it's a kid you know whether it's a family,

00:25:04.858 --> 00:25:10.488
i mean everybody leads something so so we really i mean to your point we really

00:25:10.488 --> 00:25:13.589
do believe that this extends far beyond,

00:25:14.217 --> 00:25:20.381
you know titles or corporate environments we we believe that everybody benefits from this sort of work,

00:25:21.268 --> 00:25:25.488
no i like that i like how you define can you can you say your definition of

00:25:25.488 --> 00:25:27.188
leader again I like that.

00:25:27.188 --> 00:25:30.520
Yep. A leader is simply anybody who has somebody following them.

00:25:31.235 --> 00:25:35.018
I love that because you walk from here like leader as though it's a title that's

00:25:35.018 --> 00:25:36.872
almost unachievable to most people.

00:25:37.150 --> 00:25:39.403
Yep. Yeah. I just don't think that's the case.

00:25:40.353 --> 00:25:43.628
No, I mean, I could see that even being applied to parents. 100%.

00:25:43.718 --> 00:25:46.798
Or teachers, really anybody. Yep. Yep.

00:25:47.298 --> 00:25:50.669
100%. So I like that definition. Yep. Yep.

00:25:51.258 --> 00:25:58.388
And how have you seen your approach, the E plus R equals T, help leaders in

00:25:58.388 --> 00:25:59.719
their pursuit of growth?

00:26:00.867 --> 00:26:04.313
Yeah, good question. It really is in the pause, right?

00:26:04.873 --> 00:26:09.683
The pause is really the secret sauce or the silver bullet or whatever other

00:26:09.683 --> 00:26:13.963
cliche we want to use. But we say all the time, well, actually,

00:26:13.963 --> 00:26:17.033
when I worked in a manufacturing plant, I worked with a process improvement

00:26:17.033 --> 00:26:19.743
engineer who was brilliant. He was a genius.

00:26:20.178 --> 00:26:24.548
And he would look at processes and try to make them more efficient and more productive.

00:26:25.065 --> 00:26:30.649
And he said, he like instilled in me all the time that results are not accidents,

00:26:31.473 --> 00:26:35.293
that processes get the results they are designed to get, right?

00:26:35.624 --> 00:26:38.747
There are no anomalies with these sort of processes.

00:26:39.264 --> 00:26:43.603
And I think our lives are kind of the same way. The results that I'm getting

00:26:43.603 --> 00:26:47.652
in my life are the results that my life is designed to give me.

00:26:48.209 --> 00:26:53.093
So if I want different results, whether that's, you know, less exhaustion,

00:26:53.093 --> 00:26:56.539
less overwhelmed, or being less reactive, whatever it is,

00:26:57.068 --> 00:27:01.403
if i want those different results i have to try something different like i have

00:27:01.403 --> 00:27:04.533
to create a difference in my rhythms and my routines,

00:27:04.986 --> 00:27:08.963
and that e plus r equals t is just enough of a pause and a rhythm change and

00:27:08.963 --> 00:27:14.363
a habit change that that that then is the beginning of saying okay i'm going

00:27:14.363 --> 00:27:18.073
to get different results because i'm trying a different process right it's a

00:27:18.113 --> 00:27:19.817
different rhythm and a different set of habits,

00:27:20.718 --> 00:27:25.413
and i like it because it's not beyond complex because you can get really complex

00:27:25.413 --> 00:27:27.729
it seems with like business and corporate and.

00:27:28.853 --> 00:27:30.633
I i personally don't see a lot of.

00:27:31.946 --> 00:27:35.446
Groups or coaches that have more of an approach that are not,

00:27:35.620 --> 00:27:37.878
that is not, you know, financially driven.

00:27:38.407 --> 00:27:42.058
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing, Catherine, I'm, I'm glad you said that.

00:27:42.378 --> 00:27:44.775
And I agree. I'm biased obviously, but I agree.

00:27:45.435 --> 00:27:49.389
You know, our coaching philosophy, Chris and I's coaching philosophy is that

00:27:49.510 --> 00:27:55.268
the solutions to the, to the, to the feeling of being stuck or the solutions

00:27:55.268 --> 00:27:58.915
to not getting the results that we want, that they're already in us.

00:27:59.379 --> 00:28:03.998
Like our, My job as a coach is not to, you know, tell a client,

00:28:03.998 --> 00:28:07.279
hey, do these five things and you're going to, you know, see different results.

00:28:07.715 --> 00:28:11.378
My job is to help them discover the solution that's already in them.

00:28:11.378 --> 00:28:16.998
So we certainly don't believe that we are the purveyors of transformation.

00:28:17.418 --> 00:28:21.848
We think we know how to ask good questions at the right time so that people

00:28:21.848 --> 00:28:24.321
can uncover the solution that's already there.

00:28:24.595 --> 00:28:26.986
But there's just something keeping them from finding it.

00:28:27.617 --> 00:28:32.278
Now now even though you're you're kind of removed from the corporate world you're

00:28:32.278 --> 00:28:37.148
not fully i would say because you're still helping coach some of those in the

00:28:37.148 --> 00:28:38.664
corporate world is that accurate to say,

00:28:39.342 --> 00:28:43.448
yeah yeah so so our our client base we i would say about 50 percent of our clients

00:28:43.448 --> 00:28:47.168
are kind of corporate corporate world corporate leaders probably the kind of

00:28:47.168 --> 00:28:49.438
stereotypical leader that you would think of,

00:28:50.225 --> 00:28:55.141
but but you know the other 50 we do coach a lot of pastors and we.

00:28:57.038 --> 00:29:03.268
Kind of folks yes so certainly we we do have quite a connection still into the

00:29:03.268 --> 00:29:08.468
corporate world through the clients that we that we coach and what are your what are you seeing,

00:29:09.226 --> 00:29:13.408
in those little peaks into the leadership world that are that are the problems

00:29:13.408 --> 00:29:18.150
where you see like it starts to erode where you see leaders reaching out to you for help,

00:29:19.668 --> 00:29:27.040
yeah i i that's a good question i i think there's some common thread around.

00:29:28.618 --> 00:29:32.808
A loud inner critic, if I can say that, a loud inner voice that says,

00:29:32.808 --> 00:29:35.038
you know, you're not doing a good job. You're not doing enough.

00:29:35.038 --> 00:29:36.138
Somebody else is better.

00:29:36.600 --> 00:29:40.698
Those sorts of things like that. That's pretty common in a lot of our clients

00:29:40.698 --> 00:29:44.078
is that, that there's, and I don't think inner critic is always bad.

00:29:44.418 --> 00:29:47.428
Right. I mean, I, I feel like I need to say it like, sometimes the inner critic

00:29:47.428 --> 00:29:51.278
is right. Sometimes I do need to learn new things. Right.

00:29:51.598 --> 00:29:53.638
Sometimes the inner critic is trying to help us.

00:29:54.593 --> 00:29:58.358
The question is like how do we how do we what do we do with it how do we listen

00:29:58.358 --> 00:30:04.258
to it how do we discern what's real and what is you know truly just unnecessary

00:30:04.258 --> 00:30:07.621
critique and that that's a pretty common thread,

00:30:08.327 --> 00:30:13.218
i think honestly katherine the the kind of hustle culture that we see today,

00:30:13.738 --> 00:30:19.048
is is pretty alarming in some of our clients or or at least maybe alarming is

00:30:19.048 --> 00:30:22.946
the wrong word but But that's maybe a place from which they come to us,

00:30:23.476 --> 00:30:26.517
to say, I just can't keep doing what I've always been doing.

00:30:27.509 --> 00:30:32.590
Again, I can't sustain this level of work over the next, you know,

00:30:32.590 --> 00:30:34.457
15 years or 10 years or whatever it is.

00:30:35.109 --> 00:30:39.070
And that seems pretty profound. There are some positive, like we are seeing

00:30:39.070 --> 00:30:42.840
some positive things, but I think those are the two main ones that stand out

00:30:42.840 --> 00:30:44.013
in leadership culture today.

00:30:45.511 --> 00:30:50.950
Does it take, I know this may vary from client to client, but does it take a

00:30:50.950 --> 00:30:56.866
fair amount of time for like a nonprofit or someone in the corporate world?

00:30:57.395 --> 00:31:01.795
To kind of accept the pause, like that this is okay to stop.

00:31:02.482 --> 00:31:06.220
Yeah, yeah. It is different for everybody, but it is, I mean,

00:31:06.220 --> 00:31:10.364
it's scary, right? I mean, it is, it does feel risky.

00:31:11.360 --> 00:31:15.787
When what, you know, even 10 years ago when I was leading in a corporate world,

00:31:15.996 --> 00:31:21.052
I mean, it felt risky to say, I'm going to take my foot off the gas metaphorically, even for 10 minutes.

00:31:22.340 --> 00:31:25.200
So it does feel risky. I think,

00:31:26.100 --> 00:31:29.180
where we see the most fruit where we see the most growth is,

00:31:29.600 --> 00:31:34.300
you know, when, when people try it once or twice or three or four times and

00:31:34.300 --> 00:31:38.160
see like, oh, I'm actually coming out of this maybe even better.

00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:43.496
And it allows me to lead better than, than if I'm just kind of hanging on.

00:31:43.896 --> 00:31:45.640
We like the phrase white knuckling.

00:31:46.100 --> 00:31:48.424
Are you familiar with this phrase? Yeah. Yes. Yes.

00:31:49.060 --> 00:31:52.690
We think most leaders are just kind of white knuckling their way through their,

00:31:52.690 --> 00:31:54.946
their life, hanging on for dear life.

00:31:55.890 --> 00:31:59.845
What we find in our clients is if our clients, and I've seen this in my life

00:31:59.845 --> 00:32:04.190
too, like we, Chris and I, we've seen that we're not just owners, we're clients too.

00:32:05.315 --> 00:32:10.265
We see that the reality of, you know, white knuckling is not very productive

00:32:10.265 --> 00:32:11.691
and it's not very fruitful.

00:32:12.535 --> 00:32:17.225
If we can take a pause, take reflection, maybe even get some like rest,

00:32:17.225 --> 00:32:22.925
some actual rest, what we find is like leadership, we lead better from those

00:32:22.925 --> 00:32:26.265
places. We lead better from a place of clarity and a place of rest.

00:32:26.654 --> 00:32:30.248
So it feels in the short term, very hard and very risky.

00:32:30.660 --> 00:32:33.557
But in the long term, there's just so much fruit to be had.

00:32:35.308 --> 00:32:39.338
You touch on something that I think we hear a lot about, way too much about,

00:32:39.338 --> 00:32:40.725
and it's the hustle culture.

00:32:41.213 --> 00:32:45.549
Like, you have to go, go, go, have all these side hustles and this and that.

00:32:46.396 --> 00:32:50.561
You know, and that's a good way to kind of, I don't want to go back to,

00:32:50.817 --> 00:32:53.232
but it's a good way to burn someone out.

00:32:54.130 --> 00:32:59.261
You know, as far as, you know, when do you actually stop? Yeah.

00:33:00.300 --> 00:33:04.378
Yeah. Yeah. It is a uniquely kind of last five years.

00:33:04.378 --> 00:33:07.468
I don't know if COVID had something to do with the kind of hustle culture or,

00:33:07.788 --> 00:33:13.058
you know, if the sort of shift we're seeing culturally away from kind of traditional work.

00:33:13.058 --> 00:33:15.648
I don't know if that, you know, has something that, you know,

00:33:15.648 --> 00:33:19.758
everybody's a creator. You can be a creator or an influencer wherever you want.

00:33:19.758 --> 00:33:23.601
Like those are good, but then they also come with this hustle culture.

00:33:24.566 --> 00:33:30.563
I mean, it's easy to get sucked into, right? I mean, it's easy to see short-term,

00:33:31.157 --> 00:33:33.019
gains and short-term goals.

00:33:34.108 --> 00:33:40.628
And I certainly would never begrudge anybody for wanting some short-term gains

00:33:40.628 --> 00:33:47.303
or short-term goals. But I do think this hustle culture is just extremely short-sighted.

00:33:48.019 --> 00:33:55.867
It's extremely focused on now at the expense of myself a decade from now.

00:33:56.959 --> 00:34:00.544
You know, I'm just not sure it's sustainable over the course of time.

00:34:00.544 --> 00:34:06.934
And I think my concern as a coach is often way more about sustainability than

00:34:06.934 --> 00:34:11.465
it is sort of traditional short-term success, if you will.

00:34:12.170 --> 00:34:16.844
It's kind of like, you know, the tortoise versus the hare.

00:34:17.227 --> 00:34:21.324
Kind of like what I think of when you talk. It's like who gets to the finish

00:34:21.324 --> 00:34:23.472
line faster and in better shape.

00:34:24.140 --> 00:34:27.894
Yeah, yeah. And what do you want? You know, I think that's always our,

00:34:28.194 --> 00:34:31.803
like we ask our clients often, like, how do you define success?

00:34:32.442 --> 00:34:36.634
And, and again, I mean, if, if I want to define success by having a million

00:34:36.634 --> 00:34:42.305
social media followers and be, you know, kind of a hustler, I can, I can do that.

00:34:42.954 --> 00:34:49.024
But I think most people, if they could get clear, would say,

00:34:49.024 --> 00:34:54.624
man, I'd rather do this for a longer amount of time and find a way that's sustainable

00:34:54.624 --> 00:34:56.462
with some longevity versus,

00:34:57.066 --> 00:35:01.769
go all in right now for a short time for some results that aren't really going to matter in 10 years.

00:35:02.570 --> 00:35:06.587
Yeah it's just really hard to get out of that it's a it's a loud voice today

00:35:07.023 --> 00:35:11.514
and and and i'm i'm not sure how it shifts or how it ends or how it changes

00:35:11.514 --> 00:35:13.609
but we're certainly kind of in the thick of it right now,

00:35:14.323 --> 00:35:19.494
yeah i feel we've we've gotten addicted to like clicks and likes and reposts and,

00:35:20.285 --> 00:35:23.674
you know if you don't have under if you don't have you know a million followers

00:35:23.674 --> 00:35:27.624
you know it's and that is a terrible terrible about you know way to try to sum

00:35:27.624 --> 00:35:30.474
up a person's you know value too yeah.

00:35:31.603 --> 00:35:35.444
Yeah and i'm sure you may see do you see some of that in your practice with

00:35:35.444 --> 00:35:38.424
people concerned about like their social media presence,

00:35:39.252 --> 00:35:45.324
not really we don't i mean i think part of it catherine is so much of our sort

00:35:45.324 --> 00:35:51.688
of beginnings we're working with people that either knew us or we had some common threads with.

00:35:52.989 --> 00:35:58.149
I don't, I don't know why, but we just, we haven't, like our client base hasn't

00:35:58.149 --> 00:35:59.768
been super concerned with that.

00:36:01.029 --> 00:36:04.859
I'm not sure, you know, like there's some data that says the Harvard business

00:36:04.859 --> 00:36:11.222
journal put out some data that said something like 85% of American adults would consider themselves,

00:36:11.849 --> 00:36:16.435
like not self-aware or 15% of Americans would say I'm self-aware,

00:36:16.963 --> 00:36:18.629
which is shockingly low.

00:36:18.629 --> 00:36:23.679
I think yeah so i i don't i don't know if like we we're just connected into

00:36:23.679 --> 00:36:29.248
those 15 percent of the people or like we're attracting those 15 percent of the people or

00:36:29.637 --> 00:36:33.679
i don't you know that they're just ready to do the work that that we do but

00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:37.779
but i i think there's probably not a lot of overlap between that 15 percent

00:36:37.779 --> 00:36:41.143
of people and people who are like super interested in getting a million likes,

00:36:41.898 --> 00:36:46.647
that's that's an i didn't think the number was that was that low as far as being self-aware.

00:36:47.569 --> 00:36:49.889
Yeah, it's solo. Because if you're

00:36:49.889 --> 00:36:53.734
not aware of yourself, how much are you aware of those that you lead?

00:36:54.685 --> 00:36:59.747
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I think that that is a real concern.

00:37:00.378 --> 00:37:05.742
That's a real concern. And I think often people believe that they are really

00:37:05.742 --> 00:37:08.813
aware of the people they lead and that being self-aware is selfish.

00:37:10.072 --> 00:37:14.422
I, I think like what I heard you kind of say, I think I would push on that and

00:37:14.422 --> 00:37:18.088
say, I can't know anybody unless I know myself first.

00:37:18.728 --> 00:37:23.470
Right no i think that's i think that's important because if you don't know,

00:37:24.366 --> 00:37:28.812
kind of what your internal north is like where you stand on things your reflection

00:37:28.812 --> 00:37:33.112
who you are your strengths or weakness weaknesses how can you truly lead anybody

00:37:33.112 --> 00:37:36.669
and as you said a leader can be anybody doesn't have to be someone corporate.

00:37:37.610 --> 00:37:40.843
It can be a parent a coach whatever,

00:37:41.706 --> 00:37:46.062
you have to know yourself and i think i think i i like what you're doing because

00:37:46.062 --> 00:37:49.240
it's it's taking an internal look versus,

00:37:49.944 --> 00:37:55.432
basing you know your worth on external factors like money and production because

00:37:55.432 --> 00:38:01.054
as you stated that will only get you so far yeah yeah i think katherine like we,

00:38:01.772 --> 00:38:06.542
this is probably not a great business model but we we care so little about those

00:38:06.542 --> 00:38:11.732
metrics of success for for us yeah which is again a great business model but,

00:38:12.372 --> 00:38:15.772
And like, we just care so little about that because often we just,

00:38:15.772 --> 00:38:17.789
we just can't control those things. Right.

00:38:18.237 --> 00:38:23.333
But what I can control is, you know, at the metaphorical end of the day,

00:38:23.455 --> 00:38:27.072
you know, am I going to go home and metaphorically kick my dog?

00:38:27.681 --> 00:38:32.462
Right. Am I going to be able to look back at the end of the year and say, I'm happy with that.

00:38:33.079 --> 00:38:36.972
That, that really is like, that's Chris and I's concern personally.

00:38:36.972 --> 00:38:41.682
That's our biggest concern. And I think that's the, that's the path towards

00:38:41.682 --> 00:38:46.716
sustainability and, and longevity and healthy leadership, we would say.

00:38:47.552 --> 00:38:50.332
I would, I would like to like point out that, you know, Chris.

00:38:51.712 --> 00:38:55.272
He has God in his name, which I love that.

00:38:56.453 --> 00:39:00.540
Now you start the, you started the business with them and at some point you

00:39:00.540 --> 00:39:02.839
started a podcast. Yeah.

00:39:03.340 --> 00:39:07.726
What point did, did you decide to take the leap into that world?

00:39:08.865 --> 00:39:12.230
Yeah, it was pretty early on. Catherine, I'll tell you, I am not a podcaster.

00:39:13.570 --> 00:39:17.470
I don't know what I'm doing. So that's why I come on other people's podcasts.

00:39:17.470 --> 00:39:18.530
Cause I don't know what I'm doing.

00:39:20.410 --> 00:39:25.580
We, we began our podcast as, I mean, fully transparent as a way for people to

00:39:25.580 --> 00:39:28.282
kind of get to know us as coaches

00:39:28.688 --> 00:39:35.430
before they even would consider clicking a link to book time with us or book

00:39:35.430 --> 00:39:40.550
a conversation with us so it really did start as like how do we help people

00:39:40.550 --> 00:39:41.960
get to know chris and kurt,

00:39:42.477 --> 00:39:48.052
i think what it's become what we would say we love about it is it gives chris and i,

00:39:48.990 --> 00:39:53.160
an excuse to sit and talk to each other for 40 minutes you know like life is

00:39:53.160 --> 00:39:58.880
busy and oftentimes we don't get the time to kind of philosophize,

00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:01.405
if you will, about the things that we're thinking about.

00:40:02.450 --> 00:40:04.107
And that's honestly really fun.

00:40:05.330 --> 00:40:09.630
I don't know that we are going to be podcast celebrities by any chance,

00:40:09.630 --> 00:40:13.880
but we sure do have a good time. And I do think on some level,

00:40:13.880 --> 00:40:16.750
it probably does serve the goal of helping people get to know Kurt and Chris,

00:40:17.090 --> 00:40:19.119
but we certainly have a good time talking to each other.

00:40:19.869 --> 00:40:24.682
I'm a firm believer that, you know, every podcast has its place and it'll find its people,

00:40:25.890 --> 00:40:30.429
I don't try I can't get caught up in all the metrics and this and that like

00:40:30.568 --> 00:40:34.620
I started to and I was starting to lose my mind because it was just like like

00:40:34.620 --> 00:40:40.587
it's so complicated and talking to you I feel like you try to come from a place of like,

00:40:41.373 --> 00:40:45.174
almost feels like abundance and gratitude versus like force.

00:40:45.929 --> 00:40:52.343
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, Catherine, I, I agree. I, this idea of put out a podcast

00:40:52.343 --> 00:40:56.203
and you can have a, an a thumbnail and a B thumbnail and you can see which one

00:40:56.203 --> 00:41:00.499
has more clicks. And I, I, maybe I should, I just don't care.

00:41:03.174 --> 00:41:07.213
I don't have the, I don't have the brain space to try to guess what an algorithm

00:41:07.213 --> 00:41:08.643
is going to like or not like.

00:41:09.963 --> 00:41:13.793
I honestly don't even know if any of that's real, you know, like I,

00:41:13.793 --> 00:41:18.983
I think that's the sort of podcast content creator side of the million likes, right?

00:41:18.983 --> 00:41:22.443
Like you can chase that stuff and you can chase that stuff. And I,

00:41:22.743 --> 00:41:26.453
I think for, for me, I think at the end of the day, if, if I can look back and

00:41:26.453 --> 00:41:29.460
say, I'm, I'm happy with, we call them inputs.

00:41:29.600 --> 00:41:32.963
Like if I'm happy with the inputs that I gave the energy, the effort,

00:41:32.963 --> 00:41:36.803
then that's how I'm going to measure success versus like, you know,

00:41:36.803 --> 00:41:38.803
which thumbnail got more clicks. Right.

00:41:40.195 --> 00:41:45.103
Yeah. I think sometimes it becomes, it starts to wear off, you know,

00:41:45.103 --> 00:41:48.033
those clicks and those likes and it's like, it becomes like an addiction to

00:41:48.033 --> 00:41:53.216
it to a degree. Like how much can I get? Oh, I only got a thousand today versus 2000 yesterday.

00:41:53.698 --> 00:41:58.586
Yeah. And that's a terrible, I think it's a terrible metric and pressure to put on, on yourself.

00:41:59.259 --> 00:42:03.263
Yeah. Yeah. In any, any facet of your life.

00:42:03.837 --> 00:42:08.761
Yeah, I agree. And I think neuroscience and data would say you're exactly right, Catherine.

00:42:09.526 --> 00:42:15.603
And I think we've, and I'm curious, like in your practice, do you see some of

00:42:15.603 --> 00:42:20.753
the people that you help coach struggle communicating effectively with,

00:42:20.753 --> 00:42:24.433
with those they lead? Do you see communication as a struggle?

00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:26.763
Um, that's a good question.

00:42:27.823 --> 00:42:34.440
I would say maybe so far as communication includes how they show up.

00:42:35.562 --> 00:42:39.367
I mean, I think every human, well, I'm going to, I'll speak for the Midwest,

00:42:39.927 --> 00:42:45.233
here in the Midwest, every, every Midwesterner has a hard time with hard conversations.

00:42:45.564 --> 00:42:48.767
I don't know if you've ever been to the Midwest, but Midwesterners can be pretty

00:42:48.767 --> 00:42:50.946
nice and sometimes too nice.

00:42:51.600 --> 00:42:56.067
So, so I think we, you know, Midwesterners have a hard time with hard conversations

00:42:56.067 --> 00:43:01.017
and being really direct, but, but I think often the desire to communicate is

00:43:01.017 --> 00:43:03.787
there, the understanding like what needs to be,

00:43:04.367 --> 00:43:09.218
communicated is there it just is hard to have hard conversations i also think,

00:43:10.287 --> 00:43:15.377
we do a lot of work around anxiety and anxiety not to get in the weeds but anxiety

00:43:15.377 --> 00:43:19.591
is we define it as an intense emotional response to a threat,

00:43:20.189 --> 00:43:24.047
a threat could be like looking dumb or being embarrassed a threat could be that

00:43:24.047 --> 00:43:26.615
little well it's not little it could be that simple.

00:43:27.797 --> 00:43:34.948
So we would say like our communication gets hijacked when we feel a threat and our anxiety kicks in.

00:43:35.541 --> 00:43:39.442
So I think, yes, I would answer your question. Yes.

00:43:41.591 --> 00:43:46.780
Insofar as the communication is hijacked by something else that keeps us from doing it well. Yeah.

00:43:47.916 --> 00:43:53.340
And that could be any number of factors, whether personal or professional. Yeah, 100%.

00:43:53.993 --> 00:43:57.476
And I think that's where your approach comes into play, where it encourages,

00:43:58.213 --> 00:44:03.546
that pause to try to really reflect and dig a little deeper as to where that

00:44:03.546 --> 00:44:07.987
anxiety, that a root of it is coming from. Yeah, yeah, 100%.

00:44:09.116 --> 00:44:13.993
Now, you and Chris have a lot going on. You have the podcast.

00:44:14.603 --> 00:44:18.289
You have the coaching business. You have your book.

00:44:19.114 --> 00:44:24.420
How do you both find time to to to pause and kind of,

00:44:25.024 --> 00:44:29.246
because i imagine it creates a certain good feeling when you help all these

00:44:29.246 --> 00:44:33.686
people as you want to keep helping more and more and more how do you keep what's

00:44:33.686 --> 00:44:37.194
your definition of success today all of this,

00:44:38.027 --> 00:44:43.216
yeah thanks for thanks for asking that and and certainly yeah starting a business

00:44:43.216 --> 00:44:48.976
that we love creates a lot of opportunities to push too hard and blow by boundaries

00:44:49.396 --> 00:44:52.174
just in a different way than the corporate world did, right?

00:44:52.801 --> 00:44:57.966
It's really easy to say, I love this work. This practice is kind of our baby

00:44:57.966 --> 00:45:01.447
and we're just gonna, you know, we're gonna work 24 seven because we love it.

00:45:02.952 --> 00:45:08.562
We think a lot about counter systems. Counter systems are anything that we put

00:45:08.562 --> 00:45:14.939
in place that builds a rhythm or a routine that includes things like rest and joy.

00:45:16.052 --> 00:45:18.152
We try to be pretty playful, Chris and I.

00:45:20.262 --> 00:45:24.347
We try to have spaces where we can be unserious with each other and laugh and have fun.

00:45:25.352 --> 00:45:29.825
We think there's a place to find joy, and finding joy and laughing is important.

00:45:30.332 --> 00:45:35.012
We are created as humans that laugh so we try to find counter systems where

00:45:35.012 --> 00:45:39.012
we can have fun both together and separately and that looks like putting stuff

00:45:39.012 --> 00:45:41.133
in our calendars right that looks like,

00:45:41.609 --> 00:45:46.382
you know on a thursday afternoon going home and like i love baseball so i'll

00:45:46.382 --> 00:45:49.822
put a baseball game on the radio i'm i'm such an old soul katherine i want to

00:45:49.822 --> 00:45:52.633
listen to a baseball game on the radio on my patio,

00:45:53.143 --> 00:45:58.272
so i'll do that when when part of me wants to just kind of sit and say i just

00:45:58.272 --> 00:46:01.088
have to keep going and grinding but i i need the joy,

00:46:02.292 --> 00:46:04.780
we also we like are really serious about rest,

00:46:05.987 --> 00:46:10.432
we we you know some circles might call it sabbath that's sort of the theological

00:46:10.432 --> 00:46:16.066
word but again i don't think it has to be a theological basis but some sort of,

00:46:16.507 --> 00:46:22.915
rhythm of rest whether that's i don't know half an hour a day one whole day whatever it is,

00:46:23.792 --> 00:46:29.082
we're just really serious about those counter systems and holding to them and

00:46:29.082 --> 00:46:30.318
holding each other to them.

00:46:31.812 --> 00:46:35.342
They have to be in our calendars we have to we have to make them part of the

00:46:35.342 --> 00:46:36.607
rhythm and part of the routine,

00:46:37.408 --> 00:46:41.802
and and i mean i know it sounds simple but that's frankly really difficult and

00:46:41.802 --> 00:46:46.132
we try to do it all the time we can no and i think it's important to have some

00:46:46.132 --> 00:46:47.278
of those non-negotiables,

00:46:48.720 --> 00:46:52.380
Because if you start coming from a place of like scarcity, you know,

00:46:52.700 --> 00:46:57.530
or fear, you know, I, I don't, I, I've not seen that work out well,

00:46:57.530 --> 00:46:59.663
either personally or professionally.

00:47:00.069 --> 00:47:04.040
Yeah. Same. And you asked, you asked a question that I really wanted to answer

00:47:04.040 --> 00:47:05.160
and I didn't answer it. I'm sorry.

00:47:05.560 --> 00:47:09.530
Can I answer the success question? Oh yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. I really wanted

00:47:09.530 --> 00:47:12.794
to answer it and then I didn't. So I'm sorry for that. No, you're fine.

00:47:13.266 --> 00:47:19.580
Yeah, Chris and I would both, we would both define success as our work and our

00:47:19.580 --> 00:47:24.910
inputs. Again, the things that we put in, we would define, we would define success

00:47:24.910 --> 00:47:27.782
as those things being more aligned with who and how we want to be.

00:47:28.630 --> 00:47:33.920
So so literally i mean maybe literally is the wrong we overuse the word literally

00:47:33.920 --> 00:47:38.799
i guess but anyway we we try to look at our work and say,

00:47:39.344 --> 00:47:43.902
did did i give everything i could give in the way that i wanted to give it,

00:47:44.470 --> 00:47:48.737
if so then i'm going to count it as a success no matter the result.

00:47:50.260 --> 00:47:55.710
We are we are ridiculously in love with this idea that that that i can control

00:47:55.710 --> 00:48:00.230
what i can control and i can't control what i can't control so if if i can't

00:48:00.230 --> 00:48:03.368
control something i'm not going to measure it for my success,

00:48:04.329 --> 00:48:09.010
now it probably needs to be measured i probably need to be aware of it but i'm

00:48:09.010 --> 00:48:13.810
going to resist the urge to let it be part of how i think about my own success

00:48:13.810 --> 00:48:17.321
so so we do a lot of work to kind of define inputs

00:48:17.733 --> 00:48:20.596
that we can control and use those as metrics of success,

00:48:22.200 --> 00:48:26.453
i like i mean and i haven't i haven't met chris but i i like the.

00:48:28.680 --> 00:48:34.330
I like how you you guys seem to work i get the thing that you guys work very organically together,

00:48:35.352 --> 00:48:38.701
We do. We do. We, we, again, we've known each other for a long time.

00:48:39.463 --> 00:48:42.800
Yeah. I mean, not to say that starting a business is always easy with your friend.

00:48:42.921 --> 00:48:48.472
It's, it's not always easy, but, but yeah, there's a lot of organic overlap

00:48:48.472 --> 00:48:51.109
and a lot of organic shared language and shared values for sure.

00:48:51.793 --> 00:48:58.197
I like that and you've given us a lot today to to really a lot of good golden

00:48:58.597 --> 00:49:02.882
golden nuggets like we call them nuggets of information and knowledge what's,

00:49:03.652 --> 00:49:07.962
what's what's something that we didn't touch on that you would like to like to say,

00:49:08.672 --> 00:49:11.962
oh that's a good question katherine i feel like i've touched on a lot of things

00:49:11.962 --> 00:49:15.460
i i do like to i do like to maybe say this to listeners i,

00:49:16.072 --> 00:49:21.772
I think it's really common for adults to be white knuckling life and,

00:49:21.772 --> 00:49:24.783
and maybe leadership too, but life and leadership together.

00:49:25.572 --> 00:49:29.712
And I think one of the most common side effects is that to that is that we,

00:49:29.712 --> 00:49:34.092
we just, we feel like we're the only one doing it and that that's normal and

00:49:34.092 --> 00:49:35.376
that's how it's supposed to be.

00:49:35.811 --> 00:49:38.852
And that maybe, maybe it's that way because there's something wrong with us.

00:49:39.312 --> 00:49:43.662
I just want to say there's nothing wrong with anybody that feels like they're

00:49:43.662 --> 00:49:45.927
white-knuckling their life or leadership.

00:49:46.362 --> 00:49:49.509
There's nothing wrong with them, and it doesn't have to be that way anymore.

00:49:50.752 --> 00:49:55.732
There are other ways of living and leading, even when it feels like it's normal.

00:49:56.072 --> 00:49:59.632
Even when you feel alone, there are other ways, and you don't have to be alone anymore.

00:50:00.477 --> 00:50:04.602
Well, I think that's a very important statement to make because I think so often

00:50:04.602 --> 00:50:06.991
we do feel alone and disconnected. Yeah.

00:50:07.816 --> 00:50:12.710
And I think that's very important to say and for people to hear as well. Yeah.

00:50:13.367 --> 00:50:16.158
And I'm curious, do you have any, um,

00:50:17.208 --> 00:50:23.031
a quote or a verse that influences your daily life that you say to yourself

00:50:23.031 --> 00:50:27.100
in difficult times, even if it changes weekly, daily, that's fine too.

00:50:27.645 --> 00:50:28.731
Yeah, that's a good question.

00:50:30.005 --> 00:50:32.941
I have two and I'm not sure they're like super inspirational,

00:50:32.941 --> 00:50:36.736
but they, they, they guide my work.

00:50:37.039 --> 00:50:40.251
I'm not sure how much they guide my personal life, but I'll just,

00:50:40.251 --> 00:50:42.361
I'll tell you and you can decide what you want to do with them.

00:50:42.361 --> 00:50:49.181
But one of them is the way we do things is equally, if not more important than what we do.

00:50:50.291 --> 00:50:54.892
That was taught to me really early in my leadership by a dear friend of mine.

00:50:55.408 --> 00:51:00.971
And I remind myself of that every single week. Like once a week,

00:51:00.971 --> 00:51:02.322
I'm telling myself this.

00:51:03.240 --> 00:51:06.507
And I believe it. I believe it. I've seen it play out in my own life.

00:51:06.507 --> 00:51:09.947
I've seen it play out in the life and leadership of others. So that's one that

00:51:09.947 --> 00:51:11.042
I just tell myself all the time.

00:51:11.977 --> 00:51:15.841
The second is this. Do you know Brene Brown? Yes, yes.

00:51:16.857 --> 00:51:22.547
Brene Brown says that she tells herself this. She says, what if people aren't

00:51:22.547 --> 00:51:26.383
sucking on purpose to piss me off? They're doing the best they can with what they've got.

00:51:28.157 --> 00:51:32.519
I think that's true of me. I'm doing the best I can with what I've got.

00:51:33.123 --> 00:51:37.897
Um, that's true of me. And, and I, I have to remind myself, like,

00:51:37.897 --> 00:51:38.887
that's true of everyone.

00:51:39.471 --> 00:51:43.412
That's sort of a way that I give myself grace and self-compassion,

00:51:43.807 --> 00:51:48.264
but it's also a way that allows me to give grace and compassion to others around me as well.

00:51:48.970 --> 00:51:53.997
No, I liked, I haven't, I've read her work, but I, but I've not heard her say

00:51:53.997 --> 00:51:58.297
that, but I think that's, it's, it's a simple way to put something very important.

00:51:58.297 --> 00:52:02.537
You know, people often aren't trying to piss you off as they go through this world.

00:52:03.555 --> 00:52:07.267
So, you know, it just tends to be they could be having a bad day.

00:52:07.267 --> 00:52:10.062
Something could happen. You don't know what someone else is going through.

00:52:10.306 --> 00:52:11.737
Yeah, they're doing the best they can.

00:52:12.497 --> 00:52:16.036
Yeah, I just love it. And so am I.

00:52:17.817 --> 00:52:21.823
I live, you live in Iowa, correct? Yep, yep.

00:52:22.577 --> 00:52:26.207
I'll have to apply that because I live in Massachusetts and people are not shy

00:52:26.207 --> 00:52:28.242
with saying how they feel about anything. Yeah.

00:52:28.893 --> 00:52:35.021
You know at all you know and so i will have to apply that especially when i'm on like the highway.

00:52:36.752 --> 00:52:40.113
There's just we just don't care about about blinkers,

00:52:41.295 --> 00:52:44.945
nothing nothing matters it's just let's just you know so that'll be good for

00:52:44.945 --> 00:52:48.915
me when i'm on the highway trying to you know you know kind of keep my cool

00:52:48.915 --> 00:52:50.355
and take that pause a little bit,

00:52:51.392 --> 00:52:56.665
uh-huh can i tell you a funny hr story katherine yeah absolutely uh so so i

00:52:56.665 --> 00:52:58.685
did labor recruiting for a long time.

00:52:58.685 --> 00:53:01.775
And one of the processes when we would hire a salaried employee,

00:53:01.775 --> 00:53:04.094
like an office employee or a supervisor or manager or whatever,

00:53:04.437 --> 00:53:08.135
we would bring people in, like we'd relocate people and they would come in and

00:53:08.518 --> 00:53:11.225
like, I would fly them in and give them a whole day of interviews.

00:53:11.225 --> 00:53:12.860
We'd take them out to lunch and all this kind of stuff.

00:53:13.266 --> 00:53:15.475
And I remember one time there was somebody from the East coast.

00:53:15.935 --> 00:53:17.968
I don't remember what state, but they were from the East coast.

00:53:18.427 --> 00:53:20.715
We went to lunch downtown of a town.

00:53:20.715 --> 00:53:24.595
I mean, it was like a 7,000 person town. So not tiny, but not

00:53:25.015 --> 00:53:28.605
you know not big by any means and we we get out of our car and we have to cross

00:53:28.605 --> 00:53:32.375
the street to get to the restaurant not on a crosswalk just in the middle of

00:53:32.375 --> 00:53:35.191
a street no stop signs cars don't have to stop

00:53:35.534 --> 00:53:38.915
and we get to the edge of the parking spot look into the road and cars from

00:53:38.915 --> 00:53:42.087
both ways just stop and like do the wave on thing

00:53:42.441 --> 00:53:47.555
and this person was so confused this person was like what are they doing,

00:53:48.014 --> 00:53:50.785
well they're like they're like letting us cross like this is what people do

00:53:50.785 --> 00:53:56.315
in Iowa they see that we're trying to get across so they stop but he was so confused in that moment.

00:53:57.522 --> 00:54:00.574
I would be confused in that moment because that just does not happen around.

00:54:00.574 --> 00:54:05.174
It just doesn't. It doesn't like I can think of like half a dozen streets in my own town.

00:54:05.411 --> 00:54:08.500
If I try to get out of, I'll be sitting there for like 15 minutes.

00:54:08.663 --> 00:54:12.544
They just feel like I'm their streets. I will not cross on the floor because

00:54:12.544 --> 00:54:16.564
like it's like, you know, it's like it's like death race.

00:54:16.564 --> 00:54:20.454
It's like it's so, yeah, I can imagine like this nice, sweet,

00:54:20.454 --> 00:54:24.009
small town that you're in and this person is just like, what?

00:54:24.363 --> 00:54:29.144
Well, you also have to know, Midwest nice means that they're probably sitting

00:54:29.144 --> 00:54:31.464
in their car cursing at you because they didn't want to stop,

00:54:31.464 --> 00:54:34.307
but they feel like they're supposed to stop. So they do the nice thing,

00:54:34.545 --> 00:54:37.581
but probably resent you for it. So that's Midwest nice.

00:54:37.924 --> 00:54:42.154
But it did, it was a funny moment that I love about my East Coast person experience.

00:54:42.474 --> 00:54:46.004
I like that. Only states will have to visit the Midwest. I think it'd be a complete

00:54:46.004 --> 00:54:48.728
culture shock compared to what I'm used to.

00:54:51.800 --> 00:54:57.634
So thank you for a wonderful conversation. I really enjoyed talking to you today.

00:54:58.767 --> 00:55:03.168
I got a lot out of what you spoke on. I think one of my favorite things that

00:55:03.168 --> 00:55:05.199
you said was results are not accidents.

00:55:06.108 --> 00:55:10.160
I really liked that. And we didn't touch on it, but I do want to mention it,

00:55:10.427 --> 00:55:16.077
that you and Chris do have a book out, Live Fully and Lead Authentically,

00:55:16.472 --> 00:55:19.636
The Surprising Link Between Self-Awareness and Your Impact.

00:55:20.060 --> 00:55:24.442
And that is available on Amazon and I'll have that link in the show notes as well,

00:55:25.883 --> 00:55:32.285
and please check out Kurt and Chris's podcast the Brimstone Coaching Podcast

00:55:32.657 --> 00:55:35.269
and his coaching group also Brimstone Coaching Group,

00:55:35.757 --> 00:55:41.138
and all those links will be in the podcast to learn more about Kurt and Chris

00:55:41.138 --> 00:55:45.120
and what they do and how they do it and to even book and you said you have a,

00:55:45.776 --> 00:55:49.268
like a call that people can book if they want to just kind of like informational

00:55:49.268 --> 00:55:53.878
kind of call yeah yeah we give we give free sort of inquiry calls where,

00:55:54.538 --> 00:55:57.668
we don't want to charge anybody to see if we're a good fit it's no obligation

00:55:57.668 --> 00:56:00.341
no charge they can find those links on the website as well,

00:56:00.998 --> 00:56:03.938
yeah so and again that'll be a shout out so please check it out please give

00:56:03.938 --> 00:56:08.718
their podcast a listen give their book a listen and I want to thank you Kurt

00:56:08.718 --> 00:56:13.280
for being here today taking time out of your day to connect with us I appreciate that.

00:56:16.938 --> 00:56:21.488
Thank you so much I really appreciate it And as always you can find me And the

00:56:21.488 --> 00:56:25.718
Caller Cat Podcast On all major listening platforms The easiest way to connect

00:56:25.718 --> 00:56:28.928
with the show And support us is through our link tree Which you can find in

00:56:28.928 --> 00:56:31.801
the show notes All our links are in one spot,

00:56:32.380 --> 00:56:36.868
And please remember You don't have to carry what you came from And keep telling

00:56:36.868 --> 00:56:41.464
your story Because you never know who you're going to help And I'll see you next time.