Mixtape of Healing: Johnzelle Andersons Journey

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:26,400
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the Call Her Cat podcast, where we share honest stories

2
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,639
of resilience and recovery.

3
00:00:28,639 --> 00:00:34,400
I am Cat, and my mission is to try to hold a supportive and honest space for candid

4
00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:39,160
discussions on addiction, healing, and breaking the mold.

5
00:00:39,160 --> 00:00:45,119
Whether you are exploring sobriety, navigating challenging family cycles, or working toward

6
00:00:45,119 --> 00:00:50,000
finding self-love and empowerment, these conversations are for you.

7
00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:56,279
Let's connect, heal, and learn what it means to truly redefine your story.

8
00:00:56,279 --> 00:01:03,480
As a gentle reminder before I introduce our guest, the Call Her Cat podcast is for informational

9
00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:06,279
and educational purposes only.

10
00:01:06,279 --> 00:01:11,839
The views expressed by the hosts and guests are their own personal opinions and do not

11
00:01:11,839 --> 00:01:14,800
constitute professional advice.

12
00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:21,440
Please consult with a licensed professional for any medical, legal, or psychological concerns.

13
00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:26,199
Now on to our wonderful guest, John Zell Anderson.

14
00:01:26,199 --> 00:01:34,239
John Zell is a licensed therapist by trade, author of Mixtape, a memoir.

15
00:01:34,239 --> 00:01:41,120
Mixtape is a very unique book told in tracks rather than chapters.

16
00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:48,879
Mixtape charts John Zell's journey from trauma to triumph, from being body shamed and silenced

17
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:55,199
to building a career in mental health and forming a family of his own.

18
00:01:55,199 --> 00:01:56,680
Please welcome John Zell.

19
00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:57,680
Hello, everyone.

20
00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,559
It's nice to be here.

21
00:02:00,559 --> 00:02:01,559
Did I miss anything?

22
00:02:01,559 --> 00:02:03,320
Is there anything that you wanted to add?

23
00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:06,400
No, that was great.

24
00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,360
So let's start by telling us a little bit about you.

25
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:12,080
I gave a very brief bio, but.

26
00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:13,960
Yeah.

27
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,119
So I guess for starters, you already gave the bio.

28
00:02:17,119 --> 00:02:20,960
I am both a therapist and a storyteller.

29
00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:26,520
As you said, my debut book, Mixtape Memoir, came out two months ago.

30
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,880
I am an avid reader.

31
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:32,559
I read over 100 books a year.

32
00:02:32,559 --> 00:02:35,960
I let's see.

33
00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:36,960
I'm a single dad.

34
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:41,119
I am, you know, a business owner.

35
00:02:41,119 --> 00:02:53,399
I am at a place in my life now where peace, joy, and freedom are non-negotiable.

36
00:02:53,399 --> 00:02:59,880
And I will say that my 30s are my favorite decade so far.

37
00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:01,679
I'm 33, about to be 34.

38
00:03:01,679 --> 00:03:08,839
So all in all, I would like to say that I'm at the best part of my life right now.

39
00:03:08,839 --> 00:03:14,240
And that's the spoiler for the memoir that we're going to talk about, because it starts

40
00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,000
off not so great, but it's not as simple as like, oh, it started off terribly, and then

41
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,520
I lived happily ever after.

42
00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:27,279
Peace, joy, and freedom are things that you have to fight for and pursue every day.

43
00:03:27,279 --> 00:03:29,559
So that's a little bit more about me.

44
00:03:29,559 --> 00:03:35,279
Yeah, I've been listening to your book on Audible, and it's incredible.

45
00:03:35,279 --> 00:03:36,279
It's incredible.

46
00:03:36,279 --> 00:03:37,279
I love it.

47
00:03:37,279 --> 00:03:41,639
And I love how you've done it with tracks instead of chapters.

48
00:03:41,639 --> 00:03:44,880
It's a very unique way to do it.

49
00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:49,839
What inspired that way to do it?

50
00:03:49,839 --> 00:03:56,679
The idea for Mixtape a Memoir, the title and the concept came to me before I ever wrote

51
00:03:56,679 --> 00:03:58,759
a word.

52
00:03:58,759 --> 00:04:06,039
I guess around the time I was like brainstorming the project, I was thinking of, you know,

53
00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:11,039
I knew I was going to be writing a story about my identity, my experiences and things

54
00:04:11,039 --> 00:04:12,039
like that.

55
00:04:12,039 --> 00:04:14,639
And there's a double meaning to the title Mixtape.

56
00:04:14,639 --> 00:04:19,440
So obviously, a Mixtape is a playlist that, you know, you make for a friend or somebody

57
00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:22,040
based around a theme.

58
00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:33,160
And so being a person who loves music, I wanted to have the elements of sound in telling my

59
00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:34,160
story.

60
00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,519
So if there's a movie, there's a soundtrack.

61
00:04:37,519 --> 00:04:45,440
And I like the concept of using songs that resonate with my eras of life or stories to

62
00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:54,000
as a framework for how I would tell my story, like in a literal Mixtape, a literary Mixtape.

63
00:04:54,000 --> 00:05:02,000
But also because I am the product of a West African father and a white mother, part of

64
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,160
my identity is that of being mixed race.

65
00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:07,799
So Mixtape has the word mixed in it.

66
00:05:07,799 --> 00:05:12,720
So I like that there's a double meaning to the title.

67
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:19,399
So telling it this way, I figured if I was going to tell my story, because memoir is

68
00:05:19,399 --> 00:05:27,239
my favorite genre to read, and I've read so many of them, but I wanted, if I was going

69
00:05:27,239 --> 00:05:33,519
to add mine to the many of memoirs to choose from out there, I wanted to do it in my own

70
00:05:33,519 --> 00:05:34,519
way.

71
00:05:34,519 --> 00:05:41,720
I joke that my alter ego is a comedian, a DJ, a part time assassin, and a librarian.

72
00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:44,959
And most of those elements are present in Mixtape and memoir.

73
00:05:44,959 --> 00:05:51,279
So I was, it was really fun to create this project, because, you know, it is quite literally

74
00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:58,480
me in a literary form, but you get to see the different dynamics of my personality and

75
00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,200
culture by experiencing it.

76
00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:07,559
So that's why Mixtape was a no brainer for my title and concept.

77
00:06:07,559 --> 00:06:11,320
The book cover is very, is very beautiful, too.

78
00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:12,320
Thank you.

79
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:14,320
I really like that.

80
00:06:14,359 --> 00:06:22,160
And your memoir is, it addresses the legacy of generational pain, would that be fair to say?

81
00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:24,160
Oh, yeah.

82
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:29,760
And it, you often just, you describe your father as disengaged.

83
00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,079
What do you, can you expand on that?

84
00:06:32,079 --> 00:06:33,079
Yeah.

85
00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:37,959
Well, originally, the copy for the back of the book, I called him a deadbeat.

86
00:06:37,959 --> 00:06:45,000
But the publisher was like, oh, that might be a little polarizing for people.

87
00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:46,760
So they changed it to disengaged.

88
00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:55,160
But disengaged means, I mean, from a straightforward standpoint, I mean, it takes two people to

89
00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,679
make a child.

90
00:06:57,679 --> 00:06:59,320
And I know you said you've been reading my book.

91
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:06,079
So you kind of know that the way that I came to exist wasn't a planned situation.

92
00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:11,959
Even in my childhood, I was very much shown like, hey, you were an accident, you weren't

93
00:07:11,959 --> 00:07:15,440
really wanted, stay out of the way, you're an inconvenience.

94
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:21,239
But disengaged in a sense of, okay, I had a, you know, my volatile white mother who

95
00:07:21,239 --> 00:07:27,679
was my primary caregiver, but disengaged father in that when you participated in my existence,

96
00:07:27,679 --> 00:07:33,760
but you're not participating in the rearing of me.

97
00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:41,600
Even with, you know, there's obviously different aspects that made that more difficult, whether

98
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:50,640
it be the views that my mother had about him, or, you know, my own attitudes towards him

99
00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:52,040
and things like that.

100
00:07:52,040 --> 00:08:00,040
But I would say, I can honestly say disengaged is generous, because I am, you know, at the

101
00:08:00,239 --> 00:08:05,000
time of this recording, I am a father of a six year old.

102
00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:14,279
And having experienced that of, you know, parenting my child, I can't imagine putting

103
00:08:14,279 --> 00:08:18,920
myself in the shoes of my own father who didn't really try.

104
00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:24,200
Or to even have a child that exists in the world and not know, and not be intricately

105
00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,720
involved in what their life becomes.

106
00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:35,840
So disengaged is, it carries a lot of weight to it, for sure.

107
00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:43,760
You write about feeling like an outsider in every room, because you grew up in Virginia.

108
00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:45,200
Yes.

109
00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:57,080
And what is it like as a biracial human being trying to go through this world?

110
00:08:57,080 --> 00:09:04,679
So a thing I've really come to awareness of in writing this book, but also in obviously

111
00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:11,200
doing, you know, interviews and things to talk about the book, is that my identity as

112
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:16,280
a biracial person was one that was, I guess, chosen for me.

113
00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:22,960
Like if you think of a lot of the discourse around race and the United States in particular,

114
00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:27,359
you've heard sayings like, you know, race is a social construct that was created and

115
00:09:27,359 --> 00:09:29,679
we just subscribe to it.

116
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,679
As a kid, okay, I'm born in 92.

117
00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:33,679
It's the 90s.

118
00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:38,200
It's Southwest Virginia.

119
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:47,080
Being born to a white mother, the disengaged West African father, so clearly I'm brown.

120
00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,880
But I am being raised in whiteness.

121
00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:59,280
So just by existing, by going to the Walmart, I'm black and my mother is white.

122
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:00,760
There's a difference there.

123
00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,119
I stand out.

124
00:10:03,119 --> 00:10:09,919
And so before, say, before anybody says anything, other people are going to ask questions.

125
00:10:09,919 --> 00:10:11,599
Is that your mother?

126
00:10:11,599 --> 00:10:14,080
Where's your father?

127
00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,599
What are you?

128
00:10:16,599 --> 00:10:18,020
You're not really black.

129
00:10:18,020 --> 00:10:19,440
You're not white.

130
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:21,000
How do you have a white mother?

131
00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,799
These are things that kids would ask and stuff like that.

132
00:10:24,799 --> 00:10:30,080
So identity, which is why it's ingrained in the title of this book, Mixed, was given to

133
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:32,359
me before I even knew, right?

134
00:10:32,359 --> 00:10:40,400
And then the complexities of I'm black being raised in whiteness, but my first racist were

135
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:47,400
my white caregivers, my mother and my maternal grandmother, the things they had to say about

136
00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:56,400
my African father and that sort of stuff made my embracing of my blackness, my West

137
00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:01,900
African roots even more difficult, whether my father was a good guy or not.

138
00:11:01,900 --> 00:11:08,440
When you villainize half of my identity before I even know who I am, rather than showing

139
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:12,719
me who I am, it causes issues.

140
00:11:12,719 --> 00:11:20,840
So I grew up black and raised in whiteness, also raised in racism, bullying, abuse, neglect,

141
00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:29,039
and myriad other things, but it ended up in, the book is structured in four sections.

142
00:11:29,039 --> 00:11:33,179
There's homeroom where you kind of get to see where, who all these characters are.

143
00:11:33,179 --> 00:11:38,159
And then there's miseducation, unlearning, and then graduation.

144
00:11:38,159 --> 00:11:44,440
And I use kind of education words, but it's also a nod to the Miseducation of Lauryn Hill,

145
00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:46,719
which is my favorite album of all time.

146
00:11:46,719 --> 00:11:56,679
But the miseducation is a lot of that identity development, like being mixed, but also not

147
00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:05,599
being enough or not being the right kind of white, black, male, masculine or creative

148
00:12:05,599 --> 00:12:06,599
or whatever.

149
00:12:06,599 --> 00:12:08,159
You're not good enough.

150
00:12:08,159 --> 00:12:11,880
It's living in a world that says you're not good enough, you're doing something wrong,

151
00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:19,159
but seldom is there instruction or options of this might be who you are, let me support

152
00:12:19,159 --> 00:12:20,159
you.

153
00:12:20,159 --> 00:12:21,960
Let me help you find out who you are.

154
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,960
So mixed race is complex.

155
00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:30,320
And I think, or I know a reason that I wanted to write my story is because there's not a

156
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:38,119
ton of narratives of mixed race coming of age stories.

157
00:12:38,119 --> 00:12:40,919
My favorite would be like Born a Crime by Trevor Noah.

158
00:12:40,919 --> 00:12:48,479
He did a great job with his, but I think anybody, even if you're not mixed race, can benefit

159
00:12:48,479 --> 00:12:55,559
from seeing these perspectives of somebody who grew up between worlds.

160
00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:57,719
So that's the long-winded answer to your question.

161
00:12:58,119 --> 00:13:00,599
No, it's a beautiful long-winded answer.

162
00:13:00,599 --> 00:13:01,599
Thank you.

163
00:13:01,599 --> 00:13:05,640
Because I'm picturing you, you know, walking through Walmart with your mother and people

164
00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:11,280
saying, you know, unkind things to you, making, you know, unkind judgments, like you said,

165
00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:12,280
is that your son?

166
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:13,280
Where's your father?

167
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:18,640
And I'm sure as a young child, you felt those looks.

168
00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:24,280
You could feel that there was some uncomfortable, some tension.

169
00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:31,440
In those moments, can I ask how your mother would react?

170
00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:43,400
I think, you know, as you read my book, you'll see that my mother, you know, is definitely

171
00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:47,440
a complicated human being.

172
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:54,280
Her default was more so her own self-preservation than it was empathy.

173
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,840
Empathy wasn't her strong suit.

174
00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:06,900
And I really can't say that there was a lot of care or concern for what I was feeling.

175
00:14:06,900 --> 00:14:15,280
What I can say from my own perspective, you know, a generation removed, is that I have

176
00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:19,520
a daughter, and she is mixed race.

177
00:14:19,520 --> 00:14:25,159
It's different in a sense that I'm the brown one, and she is the fair-skinned one.

178
00:14:25,159 --> 00:14:29,640
So regardless, though, there's a contrast here.

179
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:35,359
And while my daughter has my face and Afro hair, she is very fair-skinned.

180
00:14:35,359 --> 00:14:41,799
So when she was a baby, or even sometimes now she's neurodivergent, and sometimes will

181
00:14:41,799 --> 00:14:48,640
have like a tantrum or something like that in public, I have to worry about, and it's

182
00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:53,200
coming from the parent being the black one in my case, of course, but I sometimes worry

183
00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:58,840
like, well, what if someone thinks that she's not my daughter when I'm trying to calm her

184
00:14:58,840 --> 00:14:59,840
down from a tantrum?

185
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:03,599
Or what if it looks like I'm kidnapping her or something?

186
00:15:03,599 --> 00:15:09,359
Because I've been asked by people, whose kid is that?

187
00:15:09,359 --> 00:15:15,799
Or even someone insinuating, oh, are you babysitting?

188
00:15:15,799 --> 00:15:19,080
And for me, it's bewildering.

189
00:15:19,080 --> 00:15:25,440
So I can't answer the question of what my mother must have been feeling, because I don't

190
00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:34,799
think that she was being present as much or concerned with what my feelings were.

191
00:15:34,799 --> 00:15:40,960
It was very much a MO of children are meant to be seen and not heard, don't piss me off

192
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,320
kind of thing.

193
00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,760
But I can empathize from my own vantage point of being a parent.

194
00:15:47,679 --> 00:15:57,840
That mixed race or blended race dynamic is something that I'm going to be mindful of.

195
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,559
The good thing about my daughter, though, is that she knows, she's going to know where

196
00:16:01,559 --> 00:16:02,559
she comes from.

197
00:16:02,559 --> 00:16:08,000
I've already taken her to West Africa, like, I read her children's books with diverse characters,

198
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:14,320
you know, talking about her kinky texture hair, like, she's going to be celebrated for

199
00:16:14,479 --> 00:16:15,760
her identity.

200
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,239
And she's not going to wonder, like, oh, where do I come from?

201
00:16:19,239 --> 00:16:23,039
She's going to see she has a black father, she has a white mother, and she's going to

202
00:16:23,039 --> 00:16:24,039
see who she is.

203
00:16:24,039 --> 00:16:30,880
But she's, I hope that she doesn't have to struggle with the world giving her an identity,

204
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:39,119
because I'm fostering and showing her the many facets of her existence now.

205
00:16:39,119 --> 00:16:45,080
And also by having done this work, in writing my own story, someday, she can pick up my

206
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,440
book and be like, okay, well, where does he come from?

207
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:50,440
So

208
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:57,599
No, that's beautiful that you're able to approach it a different way with your daughter.

209
00:16:57,599 --> 00:17:03,080
You know, stopping it from stopping her from having the same experience that you had growing

210
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:08,800
up with it with a disengaged father.

211
00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,199
That's beautiful that you've brought her to Ghana.

212
00:17:11,199 --> 00:17:13,839
What was that like for you bringing her there?

213
00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:18,520
Yeah, I took her to both Ghana and Sierra Leone.

214
00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:21,119
So my father is Sierra Leonean.

215
00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:28,800
And even though I don't have a bond with him, I did know that he immigrated from Freetown

216
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:29,800
Sierra Leone.

217
00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:33,079
So I took her on my third trip to the continent.

218
00:17:33,079 --> 00:17:35,520
This was this past December.

219
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,800
And it was really cool, because it was my daughter's sixth birthday when we were in

220
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:40,800
Sierra Leone.

221
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:47,719
So mind you, I'm going to the actual place where my father came from, for the first time.

222
00:17:47,719 --> 00:17:56,280
But I'm doing what my father never did for me, which was bringing my child to her roots,

223
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:57,400
right.

224
00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,160
And I'm doing it without a roadmap or knowing, right.

225
00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,239
That's why I went to Ghana a few times first, because I wanted to choose a space in West

226
00:18:04,239 --> 00:18:09,839
Africa to explore the continent, right.

227
00:18:09,839 --> 00:18:22,280
But also, it was a very full circle experience, too, because last year, I got separated from

228
00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:23,920
my daughter's mother.

229
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,479
And so it was the first time going to West Africa, where first of all, bringing my child

230
00:18:28,479 --> 00:18:29,479
with me.

231
00:18:29,479 --> 00:18:37,199
But second of all, going through that process of, okay, this era of my life is over.

232
00:18:37,199 --> 00:18:46,680
And I'm still out here, seeking connection and my roots and, and continuing to evolve

233
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:50,479
as who I am and showing my daughter while doing it.

234
00:18:50,479 --> 00:18:58,160
And it was it was a very special trip to spend with my daughter and to know that, even though

235
00:18:58,839 --> 00:19:08,040
it's just her and I, as far as, you know, me now being a single dad, I still am, because

236
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,599
of what I've been through and what wasn't given to me, I am equipped through having

237
00:19:12,599 --> 00:19:19,920
done this work to show her who she is, her and I can travel the world, we can, we can

238
00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,439
explore anything through a book.

239
00:19:23,439 --> 00:19:31,319
She has me, and she's not going to have to struggle, because she has me as a parent who

240
00:19:31,319 --> 00:19:35,439
is going to take the job very seriously.

241
00:19:35,439 --> 00:19:39,760
And so she won't have to feel as alone in the world as I did.

242
00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:46,079
And then of course, that was almost like a good period of time, too, because obviously,

243
00:19:46,079 --> 00:19:50,599
the book came out in March, you know, and now we have this like era of like promoting

244
00:19:50,599 --> 00:19:51,959
the book and all this other stuff.

245
00:19:51,959 --> 00:20:01,760
So her being able to see me pursue my storytelling and put my book out into the world, while

246
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:07,000
going through all of these life transitions of, you know, separating homes and, and all

247
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:12,479
of these different things, she gets to see a parent who is still living and thriving,

248
00:20:12,479 --> 00:20:16,719
despite life transitions that inevitably will come your way.

249
00:20:16,719 --> 00:20:22,680
So I hope that she's paying attention and that she's, she's picking up lessons that

250
00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:27,640
will help her with whatever adversity she faces someday.

251
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:35,479
I can imagine these visits, even by yourself to Ghana, were extremely powerful.

252
00:20:35,479 --> 00:20:42,719
And at times, painful, because you had to visit them without the help of your father.

253
00:20:42,719 --> 00:20:43,719
Yeah.

254
00:20:43,719 --> 00:20:50,040
And in the process of writing about these memories and your upbringing, what you went

255
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:55,719
through, were there memories that you felt were too hard to revisit?

256
00:20:55,719 --> 00:21:04,599
Yes, there are two particular parts of the book that were the most difficult to write.

257
00:21:04,599 --> 00:21:09,160
And so I know you gave a disclaimer at the beginning of the episode, but I'll give one

258
00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,880
real quick here just for listeners, trigger warning, molestation.

259
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:19,000
So that is a big trigger for you, skip ahead like 30 to 60 seconds.

260
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:24,119
So the two parts that I'll talk about, that were the most difficult to write, the first

261
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:34,880
being track eight, is when I share about how I was molested as a young child.

262
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:43,839
And the interesting thing about writing this book is that I did not come to full awareness

263
00:21:43,839 --> 00:21:47,920
and allow myself to feel the magnitude of what had happened to me until I was writing

264
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,439
the book, because I noticed a gap in kind of the timeline.

265
00:21:52,439 --> 00:21:58,239
And when I finally sat still enough to be like, hmm, what, what's missing here?

266
00:21:58,239 --> 00:22:04,239
And then I was finally able to be like, oh, yes.

267
00:22:04,239 --> 00:22:12,599
And then to write about it, it took a toll, but also it was both cathartic and necessary

268
00:22:12,599 --> 00:22:14,439
because I'm a black man.

269
00:22:14,439 --> 00:22:16,400
And I think a lot of, you know, I'm a therapist too.

270
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:22,239
So there are a lot of black men who go through being abused in that way, and they don't talk

271
00:22:22,239 --> 00:22:23,239
about it.

272
00:22:23,239 --> 00:22:29,680
And so if I'm going to tell my story, I need to, I have the opportunity to do it in a way

273
00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:36,160
that will help other people who have experienced something resonate.

274
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:41,979
And for me to be courageous in that way, I know that it's going to be more meaningful.

275
00:22:41,979 --> 00:22:43,079
So that's the first one.

276
00:22:43,079 --> 00:22:50,439
The second one is track 34, which is the song, Rest in Peace, Captain Sabaho.

277
00:22:50,439 --> 00:22:52,760
And that's later in the book.

278
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:58,680
And that's almost like a mini story within the bigger story.

279
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:04,839
And it was, I was telling, talking about this, this young man that I mentored who was a lot

280
00:23:04,839 --> 00:23:10,520
like me at that age, you know, mixed race, single parent, you know, very similar.

281
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:17,599
And it was like at a point in my life where I, you know, saw parts of myself in somebody

282
00:23:17,599 --> 00:23:23,800
and I wanted to give back and to, you know, hopefully make his experience in life a little

283
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,160
bit easier than what I had.

284
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:33,000
But unfortunately, that situation kind of crashed and burned and really hurt me.

285
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,479
That chapter begins with the line, this is the story of how I made it to 31 years old

286
00:23:37,479 --> 00:23:40,280
before I got my heart broken for the first time.

287
00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:48,479
So that track was, it's actually I think the longest track in the book, but also it's

288
00:23:48,479 --> 00:23:51,640
my favorite one, but it was also the most difficult one to write.

289
00:23:51,640 --> 00:24:01,359
That one required thousands of dollars of therapy and a lot of tears, but it's one of

290
00:24:01,359 --> 00:24:07,160
my favorite tracks because it also is something that I know people will read and they will

291
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,880
be able to connect with.

292
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:17,800
And so those were two difficult eras of life to talk about, but I didn't shy away from

293
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:23,140
it because if you read memoir, you can tell when an author is holding back.

294
00:24:23,140 --> 00:24:27,040
And I don't want anyone to look at my book and say, oh, he held back on this.

295
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:31,599
He took the easy way out, so.

296
00:24:31,599 --> 00:24:43,079
When you finally finished your memoir, what was that feeling like when you put the pen

297
00:24:43,079 --> 00:24:48,920
down or closed the computer, what was that like for you to know that you revisited your

298
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:57,760
whole childhood, your whole self at that point and you're able to write about it?

299
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:03,239
What I'm about to say might feel like a whiplash for the listeners, but hear me out.

300
00:25:03,239 --> 00:25:08,359
So imagine being, I'm sitting at my desk, I'm doing final little edits before sending

301
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,599
this book to the publisher.

302
00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:16,079
I had signed a contract and the ball is going to get rolling.

303
00:25:16,079 --> 00:25:25,160
And literally as I'm sitting at my desk, I'm blindsided less than 24 hours before my ex

304
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:32,760
was going to move out and announce the separation of the marriage.

305
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:42,400
And so my moment of finishing this project was completely clouded by the fact that this

306
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:50,640
type of betrayal, and had I not asked, like, why are you giving me the silent treatment

307
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:57,479
or not talking much, I probably would have found out as the U-Haul backed up to the house.

308
00:25:57,479 --> 00:26:04,920
So I finished my book and, of course, sent it off to the publisher, but quite literally,

309
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:12,680
the end of this project of getting this book ready to go to the publisher, then immediately

310
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:19,280
overlapped and coincided with about a three-month grief era that I went through to process and

311
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:24,880
adjust and, of course, pay out, you know, the equity of the house and get everything

312
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:30,280
arranged to, you know, be a single person again.

313
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,479
That was what it felt like to finish writing this book.

314
00:26:33,479 --> 00:26:36,640
And if you read the book, you wouldn't know that the marriage was going to end, but if

315
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:43,000
you read to the acknowledgments, you get that kind of, like, foreshadowing in a way.

316
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:50,199
So the good thing about that is, though, is that this book is all about unreciprocated

317
00:26:50,199 --> 00:26:53,839
relationships and how they hurt because they're unsustainable.

318
00:26:53,839 --> 00:26:59,439
So while that was the memory I have in finishing this book, the cool thing about this book

319
00:26:59,439 --> 00:27:02,880
is that I didn't know I needed this book when I wrote this book.

320
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:10,079
So everything that I learned through writing this book, such as, you know, reciprocity

321
00:27:10,079 --> 00:27:18,400
and not continuing to, you know, do the same thing over and over again, expecting different

322
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:24,160
results, those lessons from all of these other unreciprocated relationships and adversities

323
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:29,839
and traumas and neglect and things like that actually showed me that I was already made

324
00:27:29,839 --> 00:27:34,280
of everything I needed to endure anything.

325
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:40,760
So even though, of course, the ending of a marriage is hard, I had this book to show

326
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:42,479
me exactly what I was made of.

327
00:27:42,479 --> 00:27:47,560
So I'm fine now.

328
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:53,839
And so yeah, it wasn't like the, oh, and then I closed my laptop and I just felt a sense

329
00:27:53,839 --> 00:27:55,079
of accomplishment or something.

330
00:27:55,079 --> 00:28:02,239
It was like, no, I closed my laptop and was blindsided by this person being like, oh,

331
00:28:02,239 --> 00:28:03,239
I'm moving out tomorrow.

332
00:28:03,239 --> 00:28:06,239
I was like, oh, wow.

333
00:28:06,239 --> 00:28:10,160
And then I had to go into, you know, taking care of my daughter and making sure that she

334
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:14,160
could adjust to all of that and everything like that.

335
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:15,920
So it wasn't easy.

336
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:24,760
But in the end, I did not allow anything to derail the story, making it to where it needed

337
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,400
to go because my story is worthy of being told, for sure.

338
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,160
No, your story is definitely worthy of being told.

339
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,760
And I'm sorry that you went through that at all.

340
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:41,160
And definitely at that time when you're trying to go through all these painful memories and

341
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:46,319
going through your childhood and painful events that, you know, you again had to go through

342
00:28:46,319 --> 00:28:52,439
another painful event, which should have been like a celebratory time for you.

343
00:28:52,439 --> 00:28:57,479
Because that had to be, man, that had to be crushing to some degree.

344
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:02,079
Yeah, because you imagine when you're writing a book, you're like, oh, well, this person

345
00:29:02,079 --> 00:29:08,239
that I'm with will, you know, be at the launch party to celebrate with you or, you know,

346
00:29:08,239 --> 00:29:14,160
will help you, you know, stuff the envelopes with advanced copies of the book and different

347
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:15,160
things like that.

348
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,119
And it's like, oh, well, I'm doing this by myself.

349
00:29:18,119 --> 00:29:21,839
But the thing about my story is that I've always done everything by myself.

350
00:29:21,839 --> 00:29:29,839
I've always found a way to know that I have what it takes and know that I have everything

351
00:29:29,839 --> 00:29:36,599
within me to be okay, even though it doesn't feel that way at the time.

352
00:29:36,599 --> 00:29:40,119
So it was like bitter and sweet.

353
00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:44,680
You know, I accomplished something, but also the timing of it.

354
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:52,160
And of course, you know, the nuances and all of the betrayal and pettiness on the other

355
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:57,839
one's part, that'll be covered in the next memoir, because I believe that if you didn't

356
00:29:57,839 --> 00:30:00,000
want to be written about, you should have behaved better.

357
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,359
So it gives me fodder for the next book.

358
00:30:04,359 --> 00:30:05,839
No, that's fair.

359
00:30:05,839 --> 00:30:11,239
I mean, your experiences are valid, and they need to be, you know, told.

360
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,719
Because your stories are helping people.

361
00:30:16,719 --> 00:30:22,760
And I have to wonder, as you spoke about a little bit earlier, there aren't a lot of

362
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:28,800
books speaking from a biracial point of view.

363
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,520
And why do you think that is?

364
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:48,239
Well, I can give you a perspective from somebody who has interacted with mainstream publishing.

365
00:30:48,239 --> 00:30:50,000
Everything is a business at the end of the day.

366
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:51,520
We live in a capitalist country.

367
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,079
I assume you live in the United States.

368
00:30:54,079 --> 00:30:55,680
Yes.

369
00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:00,199
So everything is about, is it marketable?

370
00:31:00,199 --> 00:31:01,439
Is it palatable?

371
00:31:01,439 --> 00:31:04,719
Can it be sold?

372
00:31:04,719 --> 00:31:13,400
So if you look at the New York Times bestseller list, most of those authors are white.

373
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:22,839
They mainstream publishing greenlights a handful of diverse voices.

374
00:31:22,839 --> 00:31:25,959
And so there's that.

375
00:31:26,719 --> 00:31:33,199
As much as we like to call ourselves a melting pot, we're very binary in a lot of ways.

376
00:31:33,199 --> 00:31:37,880
So imagine what I shared about identity of like, well, you're not black enough.

377
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,359
You're not white.

378
00:31:39,359 --> 00:31:40,359
What are you?

379
00:31:40,359 --> 00:31:42,319
You know, all of these things.

380
00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:52,479
That's how publishing treats ambiguous identity.

381
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:58,239
When you have a book that you've written and you go to say, try to find an agent, they

382
00:31:58,239 --> 00:32:03,280
will ask you questions such as, why does your story matter?

383
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:04,560
What makes you stand out?

384
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,400
What makes you different?

385
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,880
How do you tell your story that is going to make a splash?

386
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:13,880
How many followers do you have?

387
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:18,040
And these things, right?

388
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:25,239
And then imagine me, a person who's written the story and have laid it all out.

389
00:32:25,239 --> 00:32:32,239
And then to be told via, I have queried over 200 literary agents.

390
00:32:32,239 --> 00:32:36,319
And especially, what was especially hurt was the black ones who rejected it, right?

391
00:32:36,319 --> 00:32:39,560
And they're like, oh, well, we don't feel like this is marketable.

392
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:47,680
Or the concept is, you know, because I didn't just write it in the cookie cutter, like,

393
00:32:48,319 --> 00:32:50,479
the way that a memoir would be, I did it in my own way.

394
00:32:50,479 --> 00:32:56,439
And I wasn't, I didn't want to compromise on my creativity.

395
00:32:56,439 --> 00:33:01,199
So I would imagine, in answering your question, why aren't there more mixed race narratives

396
00:33:01,199 --> 00:33:02,199
and stuff like that?

397
00:33:02,199 --> 00:33:08,560
Is because they want to, capitalism or mainstream publishing wants to know, how does this fit

398
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:14,040
into our biased machine?

399
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:23,599
And if you're existing on in multiple spaces, imagine me, you know, biracial, bisexual,

400
00:33:23,599 --> 00:33:29,479
you know, many different intersections of identity.

401
00:33:29,479 --> 00:33:39,400
And then also writing my book in a format that doesn't necessarily follow all genre

402
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,920
norms, they look at it as a liability.

403
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:48,839
So I published it anyway, and it worked out.

404
00:33:48,839 --> 00:34:00,040
But I imagine explaining your existence as a mixed race, biracial, multiethnic person

405
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:06,959
doesn't fit into the limited scope of what they want for, like, oh, is this a race story?

406
00:34:06,959 --> 00:34:12,120
Is this a, is this a, you know, social justice story?

407
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,959
Like they want it to be simple, it has to be palatable.

408
00:34:15,959 --> 00:34:20,199
And the reality is, is that humans are complex.

409
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:24,760
So I imagine some people get hemmed up.

410
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,199
The publishing industry is also incredibly gatekeeping.

411
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:32,959
So that's, that's my industry answer for that one.

412
00:34:32,959 --> 00:34:38,280
That makes me sad when someone says to you, when they want, like, what makes your story

413
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:39,280
so special?

414
00:34:39,439 --> 00:34:40,439
Mm hmm.

415
00:34:40,439 --> 00:34:44,840
You know, because that, that's very degrading in a way.

416
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,600
And that's before they've ever read a word that you wrote.

417
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:49,600
That's that's awful.

418
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:55,000
I'm sorry that you had those experiences.

419
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:59,120
Because your voice is very much needed.

420
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,159
And you know, very much needs to be represented.

421
00:35:03,159 --> 00:35:08,719
And I can only imagine how many other mixed individuals, like you said, have gone through

422
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:13,800
this experience, and they've given up, whereas you were able to persevere.

423
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,639
Mm hmm.

424
00:35:15,639 --> 00:35:21,600
What message do you have for, for individuals who want to get their story out, but are being

425
00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:26,719
turned away, like you experienced with the publishing industry?

426
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,080
Yeah.

427
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:37,159
One thing I would say, and this kind of goes back to a question you asked earlier, is that

428
00:35:37,159 --> 00:35:43,320
if you don't know who you are, and love, like and understand who you are, you're going

429
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:52,159
to fall victim to the systems around you telling you who you are.

430
00:35:52,159 --> 00:35:55,959
So thankfully, I had written this book already.

431
00:35:55,959 --> 00:36:01,020
Thankfully, I've been a therapist and have been to therapy and, and read voraciously.

432
00:36:01,020 --> 00:36:03,120
So I'm a big empathizer, right?

433
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:14,280
Like, I am a very whole person who is not easily shaken or, you know, shut down.

434
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:21,120
So when someone, you know, I see a, you know, Google form on a publisher's website or agent's

435
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,800
website that says, explain why your story matters.

436
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,840
My internal narrative is already, I already know my story matters.

437
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:32,479
And it's great.

438
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,800
Not from ego, but from I, I am skilled at what I do.

439
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:42,239
I didn't just wake up one day and decide to be a writer.

440
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:48,360
In it, I have the practice, I have the stories, I've lived the experience.

441
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:55,760
So I don't take it as personally with it, because I also read so much.

442
00:36:55,760 --> 00:37:10,239
And I know the limited small mindedness and select winners that a capitalist system allows.

443
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:16,560
And there's more joy for me in knowing that I can be resistant and I can, I can do it

444
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:17,560
anyway.

445
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,560
I don't have to, you know, wait around.

446
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:27,280
You know, I even think of like my black ancestors who at some point weren't allowed to read

447
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,280
and write.

448
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:33,120
Well, look at me voraciously reading over 100 books a year and writing books and being

449
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:41,120
a therapist and being a company of one, you know, business owner and, and, you know, doing

450
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:46,320
all of the things that previous generations may not have had the capacity or ability to

451
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:47,959
do.

452
00:37:47,959 --> 00:37:52,280
So I don't have to put too much weight into what makes your story matter.

453
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,000
I already know it matters.

454
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,080
It doesn't matter to you.

455
00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:56,560
And that's okay.

456
00:37:56,560 --> 00:38:00,639
Because I've already internally known that I love, like, and understand myself.

457
00:38:00,639 --> 00:38:03,000
And I fought to get to that point.

458
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:07,639
But also, I don't have to be for everyone.

459
00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:11,639
And I'm comfortable with that, because anybody who's for everyone, or any book that is for

460
00:38:11,639 --> 00:38:16,080
everyone, is also a book that's very boring.

461
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:19,439
Because if it's for everyone, it's for no one.

462
00:38:19,439 --> 00:38:29,280
So I just believed in my own ability, and my creativity and those who it's for, or those

463
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:30,840
who will enjoy it will enjoy it.

464
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:36,719
And those who don't, or feel that I have to convince them or give a full sales pitch in

465
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,719
order to give it a chance, then that's, that's not where I'm going to put my energy anyway.

466
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:45,560
So to answer your question, anyone who's listening who wants to tell their story, take some of

467
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:51,800
that, like, you know, you're going to come up against an industry that tells you, okay,

468
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:56,239
pitch yourself, prove why this matters, play our game.

469
00:38:57,679 --> 00:39:06,159
And you, you have to know who you are, otherwise, you're going to have to settle or you're

470
00:39:06,159 --> 00:39:09,360
going to get your feelings hurt.

471
00:39:09,959 --> 00:39:17,520
You're going to get beaten down by an industry that wants you to fit into their mold.

472
00:39:19,199 --> 00:39:26,040
So you have to use a lot of discernment and self-care when doing this kind of work, but

473
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:27,120
it's not impossible.

474
00:39:29,399 --> 00:39:35,840
I like to think that Harriet Tubman, one of my favorite ancestors, she wouldn't have been

475
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,360
too cool with somebody being like, oh, this is impossible.

476
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:44,199
So I'm not going to tell myself that anything is impossible.

477
00:39:44,199 --> 00:39:48,159
And when my daughter says I can't do something, I tell her, don't say you can't do

478
00:39:48,159 --> 00:39:50,719
something, say you don't know how to do it yet and ask for help.

479
00:39:52,399 --> 00:39:58,040
So that's the encouragement I would give to anybody feeling insecure or nervous about

480
00:39:58,040 --> 00:39:59,080
telling their own story.

481
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,919
No, that's beautiful and it's powerful.

482
00:40:02,919 --> 00:40:04,639
I thank you for sharing that.

483
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:14,600
Because as you've spoken about, you have all these damaging external definitions of what

484
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:20,959
you should be or what society will accept or want or what's palatable.

485
00:40:23,199 --> 00:40:30,159
And I think it really, I think it takes away from what people really want to hear because

486
00:40:30,159 --> 00:40:32,320
people don't even know what's being turned away.

487
00:40:32,919 --> 00:40:40,399
Mm hmm. Everything's controlled by algorithms and what the computers say will sell and

488
00:40:40,399 --> 00:40:43,239
what will increase the bottom line.

489
00:40:44,639 --> 00:40:49,399
And people who there are so many good stories that get hemmed up in the system that don't

490
00:40:49,399 --> 00:40:55,600
get to see the light of day or get the promotion that they deserve because, I mean, our

491
00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:02,040
algorithms are not tuned to equality, they're tuned to profits.

492
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:14,399
And so you have to be mindful of that and resist that, but also do it anyway without

493
00:41:14,399 --> 00:41:16,040
certainty of what the outcome will be.

494
00:41:19,399 --> 00:41:24,080
That's incredible. I admire your perseverance and your resilience going through this

495
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,840
journey, even just writing the book and trying to get it published.

496
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:34,919
Thank you, because you've encountered obstacle after obstacle and being so strong and so

497
00:41:34,919 --> 00:41:40,399
centered and knowing who you are, which has been vital to your not only survival, but

498
00:41:40,399 --> 00:41:47,719
growth. You mentioned that you did you did go to counseling, you have gone to counseling.

499
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:54,879
Do you think that was key to your growth and helping you get where you are today in life?

500
00:41:55,879 --> 00:42:01,360
Absolutely. I was an undergrad and I was supposed to be an elementary school teacher.

501
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:08,080
I was studying psychology as my major, but I was minoring in elementary education, so I

502
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:09,719
was supposed to be an elementary school teacher.

503
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:14,919
And then I did some internships and I was like, I hate kids, so I can't do this.

504
00:42:15,479 --> 00:42:20,320
And so that was a bit of a crisis because I was a junior and I was like, well, if I was

505
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:22,080
going to be a teacher, what am I going to do?

506
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:30,040
And that, plus the fact that I was a few years removed from the abusive, neglectful family

507
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:38,959
of origin that I had grown up with, the the consequences of that upbringing started to

508
00:42:39,439 --> 00:42:42,600
surface, especially when I was getting to spaces of more safety.

509
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:47,080
So I was having like 10 panic attacks a day and all of this.

510
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:52,360
So I ended up in therapy for the first time and was diagnosed with panic disorder and,

511
00:42:52,679 --> 00:42:58,360
you know, got to, you know, get medication for the first time and started to understand

512
00:42:58,360 --> 00:42:59,520
like, oh.

513
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:07,760
You get what you're feeling and what you've been through and these symptoms that you deal

514
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,399
with every day and how you look at the world, there's some unlearning, there's some

515
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,760
miseducation that you have been inundated with.

516
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:20,879
And after starting to find stability through my own personal therapy, that also pointed

517
00:43:20,879 --> 00:43:24,879
me right in the direction of, well, I don't want to be an elementary school teacher, but

518
00:43:24,879 --> 00:43:28,040
why not go on down to the grad school and become a therapist?

519
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:29,719
And so here we are today.

520
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:31,919
I've been a therapist over a decade, so.

521
00:43:33,159 --> 00:43:35,280
That's beautiful that you were able to make that pivot.

522
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:36,080
Yeah.

523
00:43:36,879 --> 00:43:41,239
And what is it like for you being a therapist today after all you've experienced?

524
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,120
Like, how do you approach being a therapist?

525
00:43:44,040 --> 00:43:54,320
Yeah, I love being a therapist because it really aligns with kind of that bio that I

526
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:58,639
give myself, which is therapist storyteller, because we're all a series of stories.

527
00:43:58,639 --> 00:44:06,040
Going to therapy is telling your story and reframing and unlearning and, you know,

528
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:14,520
repackaging things, not to revise history per se, but my love for storytelling,

529
00:44:15,199 --> 00:44:21,600
consuming stories, but also being a person who can sit with people in their stories

530
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:30,159
and do the clinical work as well is very important because I joke that I had 22 years

531
00:44:30,159 --> 00:44:34,639
of mental health training before I ever set foot in grad school because of what I went

532
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:35,959
through growing up, right?

533
00:44:37,959 --> 00:44:49,000
So being a therapist has been, it continues to help me in my own healing because I have

534
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:56,600
gotten, it's like training a muscle to, it's not a science, it's an art and holding

535
00:44:56,600 --> 00:45:03,399
space, but also think of all of the, like, life defining things that have happened in

536
00:45:03,399 --> 00:45:04,399
the past decade.

537
00:45:04,399 --> 00:45:12,040
Like we went through the COVID pandemic, we went through whatever this hostile government

538
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:21,560
takeover situation is, you know, climate change and economies and wars and all of these

539
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,800
things. And then things on the ground in our communities, police shootings, ice, all of

540
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:29,320
this, like these are things that we hear about as a therapist.

541
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:32,199
I'm interacting with these things in real time every day.

542
00:45:33,399 --> 00:45:37,399
I'm like one or two degrees of separation removed from anything you're seeing on the

543
00:45:37,399 --> 00:45:44,439
news and the ability to have done the work to be, you know, never trust a therapist who

544
00:45:44,439 --> 00:45:51,719
hasn't been to therapy, but also to be in the spaces of working with people who are

545
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:56,520
going through these things and having that perspective on the world.

546
00:45:56,600 --> 00:46:07,080
And then also, you know, continuing to be a participant in society too, it's a balance

547
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:10,600
of emotions. It's not just, oh, it's great, it's happy all the time.

548
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:16,840
Sometimes it's overwhelming, sometimes it burns me out, but it's a give and take.

549
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:23,479
It's a way that I can impact and have a ripple effect on my community.

550
00:46:24,199 --> 00:46:29,239
So, yeah, it's a very rewarding, dynamic job.

551
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:39,560
I, every hour I get a new situation to deal with and I don't get bored, so I'm grateful.

552
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:44,040
And just a quick heads up, I have like maybe 10 minutes left before I got to go.

553
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:45,080
Oh, no, I appreciate it.

554
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:45,560
Thank you.

555
00:46:47,959 --> 00:46:51,320
Yeah, you are, you are a man in many directions.

556
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:57,080
You're an author, you're a father, you're a therapist, you're a storyteller.

557
00:46:59,879 --> 00:47:04,679
I'm curious, you mentioned earlier in the interview, your favorite album of all time

558
00:47:04,679 --> 00:47:06,520
was The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill.

559
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:14,199
Is there a song that you think would, that defines your life?

560
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,439
That's a tough question.

561
00:47:16,439 --> 00:47:18,280
That'd be like asking me what my favorite book is.

562
00:47:19,479 --> 00:47:20,040
I'm sorry.

563
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:24,280
But if we're looking at The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill, that's a smaller sample size

564
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:25,159
to choose from.

565
00:47:25,159 --> 00:47:30,919
I actually use three of the songs from that album in the mixtape that frames this book.

566
00:47:32,199 --> 00:47:36,760
I really love the song Lost Ones, which is the opening track to the album.

567
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:42,600
And a lot of people don't understand that song, but it's the opening track to The Miseducation

568
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,479
A lot of people don't understand this, but it's a diss track.

569
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:53,159
But everything about that song, and the cool thing about The Miseducation is that it has

570
00:47:53,159 --> 00:47:57,560
resonated with me in various times and eras of my life.

571
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:01,159
It's timeless, like it just stands the test of time.

572
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:08,600
But I like Lost Ones because every word of it I just love.

573
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:12,679
I'm thinking of, you might win some, but you really lost one.

574
00:48:14,199 --> 00:48:15,479
It's so silly, how dumb.

575
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:22,600
And I'm thinking of that now, even in this conversation that I've had, I've told you

576
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:28,120
there are agents who passed or who didn't even give me the time of day.

577
00:48:28,679 --> 00:48:35,000
There's relationships that I've been in that crashed and burned, quite literally a marriage

578
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:36,600
that ended and all of that stuff.

579
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:42,840
And the thing that I love about that song is that to understand like, oh, you lost a

580
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:43,879
good one, right?

581
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,520
Is you have to, in order to be able to say that with confidence, you have to know your

582
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:49,239
own value.

583
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:50,919
I know my own value.

584
00:48:50,919 --> 00:48:52,520
I love how I can understand myself.

585
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:58,840
So anyone who crosses me or who disrespects me or who gets cut off or whatever, they're

586
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,679
the ones who are going to miss my presence.

587
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:06,199
Because when I get to the point of I'm done with somebody, it's because I knew that they

588
00:49:06,199 --> 00:49:07,639
didn't add any value to me.

589
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:11,000
And I know that I added immense value.

590
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,159
And that goes back to that unreciprocated relationships will hurt you because they're

591
00:49:15,159 --> 00:49:16,360
unsustainable.

592
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:17,879
They're taking more than they're giving you.

593
00:49:18,679 --> 00:49:23,000
So I really love that song because I think a lot of people can relate with what she's

594
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:23,800
talking about there.

595
00:49:24,679 --> 00:49:27,000
Yeah, I do miss her.

596
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,959
I do wish there was more of her.

597
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:35,719
So I remember when that album came out, how much it landed with so many people.

598
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:36,780
Mm hmm.

599
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:41,719
One last question for you, because I don't want to hold you up.

600
00:49:43,159 --> 00:49:48,760
If you could give your younger self, that little boy who was lost and going through

601
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:52,840
so much, a message about his identity, what would it be?

602
00:49:53,959 --> 00:49:58,600
Well, I'm so glad you asked, because at the very end of the story, I wrote that young

603
00:49:58,600 --> 00:49:59,479
boy a letter.

604
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:02,600
And so I'll read it to you to close out.

605
00:50:02,919 --> 00:50:07,800
June 21st, 2024, a commencement speech to a graduating class of one.

606
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,159
John Zell, it's your 32nd birthday.

607
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,679
So let me start by saying, don't give up.

608
00:50:14,679 --> 00:50:17,560
Side note, there's a couple of cuss words in this.

609
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,000
Do you want me to censor them?

610
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:20,040
Oh, no, you're OK.

611
00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:21,080
OK, cool.

612
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,320
OK, let me start by saying, don't give up.

613
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:25,879
Don't waste your time trying to appear stoic.

614
00:50:25,879 --> 00:50:26,760
You do give a fuck.

615
00:50:27,639 --> 00:50:29,800
If it costs you your piece, it's too expensive.

616
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,560
When people try you, they might just have to fuck around and find out.

617
00:50:34,199 --> 00:50:37,080
Continue to let books be your friends and mentors.

618
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,040
They're often more reliable than people, unfortunately.

619
00:50:40,919 --> 00:50:43,879
If ignorance is bliss, then awareness is a burden.

620
00:50:44,679 --> 00:50:46,520
Choose the latter over the former.

621
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:49,800
There are three rules of interpersonal relationships.

622
00:50:50,439 --> 00:50:52,120
One, speak your truth.

623
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:54,600
Two, without being an asshole.

624
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:59,560
Three, if you follow steps one through five, you will be a better person.

625
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:04,600
If you follow steps one and two, then you're not responsible for how someone reacts.

626
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,120
The only person you can change is yourself.

627
00:51:08,679 --> 00:51:12,439
When it comes to friendships, choose four quarters over 100 pennies.

628
00:51:13,399 --> 00:51:16,199
Spend less time worrying about whether people like you.

629
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,639
Focus on loving, liking, and understanding yourself.

630
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,479
This is the most important task that any human can embark on.

631
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,360
As you do this, you will gravitate towards people who value you for who you are.

632
00:51:28,439 --> 00:51:30,679
Don't spank her when she misbehaves.

633
00:51:30,679 --> 00:51:33,000
That's a generational cycle that stops with you.

634
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:35,000
Rest is your birthright.

635
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,800
I know it's easier said than done when your mind is constantly attacking itself,

636
00:51:40,360 --> 00:51:41,320
but try anyway.

637
00:51:42,199 --> 00:51:43,479
You descend from royalty.

638
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,239
Continue to learn about your West African ancestry and culture.

639
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:49,239
Continue to practice yoga.

640
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:51,399
Comparison is the thief of joy.

641
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,280
Continue to deconstruct Christianity.

642
00:51:54,919 --> 00:51:59,719
It's been a tool used to oppress your ancestors, and that tradition has trickled down to you.

643
00:52:00,439 --> 00:52:03,239
There's some good to it, but a lot that won't serve you.

644
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:04,840
Keep exploring this.

645
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:06,760
Closure is a myth.

646
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:08,520
Scales are for fish.

647
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:10,760
Grief never goes away.

648
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,040
It simply changes form.

649
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:14,280
Protect your energy.

650
00:52:15,479 --> 00:52:18,520
You are still under construction, so be kind to yourself.

651
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,199
You can't move forward if you're haunted by the past,

652
00:52:22,199 --> 00:52:24,040
so keep telling your story.

653
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:24,600
Peace.

654
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:25,159
John Zell.

655
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:28,360
Thank you so much for reading.

656
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:29,080
That was beautiful.

657
00:52:30,679 --> 00:52:31,479
So powerful.

658
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:39,399
And thank you for taking the time to have this insightful and powerful conversation with me.

659
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:44,199
I greatly appreciate your time and your energy for this conversation.

660
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:46,600
Thank you for having me.

661
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:48,040
I really appreciate you.

662
00:52:48,679 --> 00:52:53,159
And for anyone who's looking where to purchase John Zell's book,

663
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:57,800
Mixtape and Memoir, all the links will be in the show notes,

664
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,879
but you can visit his website at johnzell.co.

665
00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:08,199
There you will also be able to listen to other podcast features John Zell has been on.

666
00:53:08,199 --> 00:53:09,320
I learn more about him.

667
00:53:10,439 --> 00:53:13,800
And I want to thank everyone for tuning in and for listening,

668
00:53:14,520 --> 00:53:17,479
and the ways to connect with me and follow along for

669
00:53:18,199 --> 00:53:22,120
clip snippets and show updates will all be in the show notes as well.

670
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:27,000
And please remember that you don't have to carry what you came from

671
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:30,679
and to keep telling your story, because like John Zell,

672
00:53:30,679 --> 00:53:33,320
you will never know who you'll help, who you'll reach.

673
00:53:34,199 --> 00:53:35,879
And we will see you next time.

674
00:53:35,879 --> 00:53:36,379
Thank you.

675
00:53:37,159 --> 00:53:37,659
Thank you.

676
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:39,479
Have a good one.

677
00:53:39,479 --> 00:53:39,979
You too.

678
00:53:40,919 --> 00:53:41,419
Bye.

679
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:44,300
Bye.