A Veterans Guide to Meditation and Service Work

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Hi everybody, and welcome to Call Her Cat. Today's guest is Mark Blacknell. Mark Blacknell is the author of Just Stare at the Damn Wall, Simplify Your Mind, and founder at Stare at the Wall dot org. A former U.S. Marine and working class kid from Philadelphia, Mark's path has been shaped by resilience, service, and a long search for simplicity. After reaching a personal turning point, he discovered the stabilizing power of stillness and the clarity that can arise from simply sitting down and paying attention. Over more than three decades of meditation practice, he has developed a grounded, accessible approach marked by humor, honesty, and plain-spoken insight. Through donation-based talks and meditation sessions with seniors, inmates, treatment programs, and community groups, Mark shares a message rooted in direct experience. Peace is not found by escaping life, by meeting it fully, one breath, and one moment at a time. Welcome, Mark. Hello, Kat.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

That sounded really good. Thank you. You're welcome. It's a good idea.

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Is there anything that I missed?

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Well, the three decades of meditation, I would say only about maybe eight to ten were, you know, every day consistent. So I was like dabbling with it for many, many years, which you know, dabbling with it is good because it can lead you to a routine, you know, a practice that you can do every day. So I just wanted to point that out.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

No, that's fine. Um, and you were you were a Marine at one point in your life, is that correct? Ooh raw, yes. How I'm curious, I'm curious, like how did being a Marine shape your journey to where you are now?

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Well, uh it was, you know, I got out, I was a mess, and my nervous system was a mess. I was addicted to adrenaline, I was drinking. So yeah, I was in bad shape. So that stuck with me. You know, it took me a long time to actually address my mental health issues, but I think ultimately it led to meditation practice. You know, usually people that come to meditation, or at least me, I came to meditation, you know, crawling, just desperate for something, you know. I did treatment, you know, legitimate mental health treatment through the Veterans Administration and got on meds first. That was like my first step to stabilize me. And then once I was stable, then I was free to start experimenting with different practices.

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Now, did you find that like helpful, like a helpful place to start the medication?

SPEAKER_01 3:00

So you could yeah, I mean, I think it's in in some cases it's essential. I mean, you know, modern medicine often gets a bad rap, and for good reason, you know, there is a lot of money involved in it and things of that nature. But and it took me, you know, that was a practice in itself. It took me a good year to find the right combination of meds, you know, and work with somebody and be able to communicate to them um what it was doing and how it was not working. And you know, my combination ended up being like a really small doses of a couple of things, so yeah, it was a surprise when we figured out the concoction that actually worked because it, you know, it wasn't by the book. So that's a practice in itself.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

And that that I'm sure that was frustrating to begin with, too. To like I imagine being a marine and then needing help. I imagine that was a hard well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

You know, I tried to push through and I tried to you know suck it up, like we used to say, adapt, overcome all that stuff. But when my daughter, uh I was living on the island of Maui, and my daughter was about to be born, and that's when I said, Man, I got to get help. You know, if I want to be a good father, I need to stabilize and get some help. So I walked into a VA, uh, it's called a vet center. Okay, and this guy, Dr. Evans, was there, and I just said, Man, I'm a I need help, you know, something's wrong with me. I'm a mess. And it all started there. So I don't think if I if I didn't walk in there, I wouldn't be sitting here today.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Yeah, I'm curious, like when you like make the decision to leave the military, do they have like kind of like an exit conversation with you? Like, are you okay? Is there anything that you need?

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Um su I I hope they do today, but back then there wasn't much awareness. So I got out in '93. Right. So yeah, maybe things have changed. So there wasn't much of a exit process. Next thing I knew, I was in college, you know, in a state college, a little bit older and different than the rest of the people. That has to be tough to try to even just begin to acclimate to uh yeah, it it was. I mean, I always showed up to class no matter how messed up or hungover I was, because college felt pretty easy compared to the Marine. So I was able to get great grades and make it through. But you know, outside of the classroom, man, I was hurting. Did you struggle with was anxiety something that you struggled with? Big time anxiety and depression, uh, panic attacks, you name it. I've got every major diagnosis I think there is. Not to laugh about it, but you have to, you know.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Have you have you have you found like any of your like do you keep in touch with any of your former um like um men you men and women you served with?

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Well, the guys that are still alive, my best friends are all dead, either from drugs, alcohol, or cancer. I was in during the Gulf War, and uh there's a lot of colon cancer in particular. So once again, I'm lucky to be here today.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

No, then we're happy that you're here today because that's some people aren't. No, just some people. I don't think we can make everyone happy.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

No, we can't.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

But um, like when you what what point like in your journey of meditation did you decide that you wanted to start helping, you know, inmates and seniors and like more vulnerable populations?

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yeah, it was once I had the space to actually get out of my own survival mode. I mean, when I was in surviv survival mode all those years, I didn't really, you know, I I always wanted to help people, but I didn't, I couldn't. And that kind of made it even more frustrating. I wanted to be part of a community, I wanted to help and do good, you know, but I didn't have the tools or the stability to pass it on. So once I became relatively stable, all that started to open up, and everything really, everything I do came organically. It it just popped up in my life, or the universe delivered it, or God delivered it, or whatever you want to call it.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

What were some of like the well describe your practice for for the like what's that what's your practice is like for you, like your meditation practice?

SPEAKER_01 8:02

Well, it's pretty simple. I just wake up in the morning, preferably in the morning for those of you listening. Morning's a good time to stop and stabilize and let everything settle, but I just get up and face a wall on my knees on a meditation mat in a certain position, the one I showed you earlier. Right. And I just for 30 minutes um just kind of watch myself like a Netflix show. And when judgments of myself come up, I pay attention to them. You know, what was that? Wow, you know, whose voice was that? Is that really my voice or somebody else's, you know, and then um just how I feel, how my body feels, and any worries that pop up, any good things that pop up. I just watch myself and you know, try to do it in a way where I'm not preferring one feeling or thought over another, just watching it all go by. And it usually, you know, it usually floats on by like you know, you ever see the stock market ticker on Wall Street? Like the it's kind of like this stuff, like and and strange thoughts, you know, like memories pop up, and then future things that you might want. It's wild to to watch it, you know. I've been doing it for years and years and years, and to watch it for years and years and years, I come to two conclusions every morning. Number one, it's different. I'm a different person every single solitary time, and I know that because the meditation is different, what pops up is different, how I feel. Sometimes it's pure torture, you know, 30 minutes of torture. Sometimes it goes by and the the bell goes off, and I'm like, wow, that seemed like you know a second. So I think it kind of teaches me that whether I like it or not, I'm changing and the world's changing.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Are there ever days when like you sit down to do your meditation, you're like, I just can't today? Like, do you ever miss a day, or are you just like it's just not negotiable?

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yeah, it's pretty much not negotiable, especially in the beginning. I I think I at least went a year or two without missing. Um but now sometimes you know I'm older, yeah, and sometimes I'll wait to do it. Like I won't do it in the morning. I might do it midday, or I might do it, you know, when I get a little break at work. But yeah, I don't I've found that if I go more than two days without it, yeah, uh, I start to lose the focus and the stability that I work so hard for. So yeah, it's not a choice. I just don't, you know, no matter what I say to myself, I say just do it, unless I have, you know, I'm really sick. Right. And then I can you can still do it laying down. So I just do it laying down. And man, that's interesting when you're really, really sick with a cold or something to meditate on the cold. Somehow it makes it feel a little better, though.

SPEAKER_00 11:32

Do you ever like you do the initial 30 minutes? Is there ever I'm curious, like when you're eating, is there a meditation you do before like you eat or anything like that? I know some people do like a mindful eating mindfulness, like eating practice.

SPEAKER_01 11:47

Hey, whatever it takes to get you sitting in front of the wall like that is good. You know, you can make it as elaborate or simple as you want. But yeah, I mean, I think I live my whole life thankful for what nature or God or the universe provides because it's really, you know, all this emerged, whether you believe in creation or evolution or whatever you believe in, it all emerged from an endlessly complex, timeless universe. So it's all kind of a miracle when you really uh consider it. And that they're the kind of weird things that you start to see when you watch yourself because you're part of it, right? You know, we're part of it. We might not know it, but we begin to realize that wow, you know, this is something else, this this life of ours.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

I I like what you said about like when you sit down to meditate and you start to see like your thoughts go by. Oh, that's not mine, that was my mother's, or that was whoever's. Like over time, does what's the effect of realizing that not all the thoughts that you have are your own?

SPEAKER_01 13:02

Well, you start to realize, you know, there's a cause for the way I am. I can only speak for myself, by the way, but but there's a there's causes as to why I am, and there's reactions to what I've experienced that cause me to have certain habits and certain things that I do, certain ways of thinking. It's all based on how you were raised, who raised you, where you were raised, your historical time period, your geographic location. You know, you I started to realize things like that. And then your experiences, you know, as a even as an infant, you know, your experiences influence you. If you're always irritated and never getting what you need as an infant, that you know, that keeps on going, that doesn't stop. So it can start. I mean, it's scary being born. We all know that. I mean, we may not remember it, but uh so being alive is inherently scary, but you start to realize that you know you are the way you are for a reason, right? And and then you can be a little more easy on yourself, but you have to be careful because you don't want to just say, oh, I'm a consequence of what has happened to me, and then you take no responsibility for your actions. So it's a balance, you know, and you can't be too easy on yourself, like if I was just like, ah, I'm not gonna meditate. You know, if you're too easy on yourself, that that's not good for you either. So you have to have some discipline. But the position itself, the meditation position, is a balanced, safe, still position. So you're actually practicing it with your body and your mind, so that when you move on with your day and everything's happening to you, it's almost like you know, a golfer, when they were little, they may not have been able to hit the ball. It might have taken them years and years and years. But like a professional golfer, man, you know how many balls they've hit, and you know many balls they continue to hit. And if they start overthinking their body, they're gonna shank the shot in a pivotal moment. So it's kind of like just practicing balance, right? But I'm not perfectly balanced. I mean, and I and I'm not an authority figure in any way. So uh when you start saying you're you know, talking about balance like this, then you open yourself up to people being like, well, you didn't act balanced. So you can't, you know, I at least I cannot act balanced all the time. You know, I know my training, I know what I should do, but that doesn't mean I can always do it.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

No, no, I mean I think it's kind of one of those things where you it's like I heard this thing like one percent better every day. Like you're just a little bit better, like you're never gonna hit like that that ideal, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Oh, yeah, and you gotta be careful. At least I'm careful with ideas like better. Right. Better than what? What's the what's the uh yeah, what's the what's the gauge? Perfection? Well then you know, we'll never be better towards perfection, but you know, we could do better, and of course, we can do better in certain circumstances, but I'm a little careful with the better stuff, unless I'm sick, then I really do want to get better.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

How do you like and you said I I like I like how you you really work with with inmates? What have you seen like or heard of like what kind of changes have you seen like in them? How does that help them like in their setting?

SPEAKER_01 17:00

Well, it depends on the person, but the first person I ever worked with on death row, um you know, when I first started talking to him, he was let's just say violent, rough, and aggressive, and kind of took pride in what he did. Um, and now he's you know, he's still the same person, but he's just much different, much less reactive. He has space to help other people, and we do, we do. Like we just uh during Christmas, we figured out who on his wing had nobody, and we figured figured out how to get him some presents.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

That's very powerful if you can work with someone who's on death row. I mean, he's not getting out, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:55

No, and he's no most out of appeals, too.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

So and that's that's a heavy, heavy thing to carry and to work through. And if you can if meditation can help somebody in that setting, you know, what can it do for the average person who's not facing that type of that type of struggle?

SPEAKER_01 18:14

Well, he wrote a really good letter, you know, like an open letter, and he basically said what you just said. Like it's really helped me, and you know, it's made me really sorry for what I did, and really all I want to do if I could was is apologize to the victims' families. And he said, But if I can do it in this place, anyone can do it, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Now, and similar, well, not similar, but when you're working with seniors or those who are close to the end of their lives, what can meditation do for them? They're facing like an illness, like it's just you know, how does that help them face that transition, I guess?

SPEAKER_01 19:01

Well, just like the prisoners, sometimes uh there's no way to break the pattern of you know, that they see no point with you could just see it in their faces, like, why are we sitting here still and quiet? You know, and a lot of them are like, I can't ever do that again. It was tort, you know, it was painful. But the but the ones that stick with it, um, you know, they thank me all the time that it just brings them some clarity and some balance and some normality in a situation, especially in assisted living homes, you know. It just gives them a certain calm and clarity and ability to appreciate what they have left. So when they when they say that to me, obviously it makes it all worth it, even if it's just one person, you know.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

I I worked in assisted living for a little bit, and one thing that I noticed was a lot of the residents there didn't have a lot of visitors. No, they're often alone. And I'm wondering if like sometimes in meditation maybe they didn't feel so alone.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Like well, that's big, you know. It's you're alone meditating, in my case, staring at the wall. I don't make the seniors stare at the wall. They sit in chairs and we're all together, but it does, if you do it consistently over time, it does help with the understanding that we're all part of the same, you know, we're all sitting at the same table or on the same team, we're all part of the same movement of life. And it definitely helps them feel less alone.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

And when what at what point did you want to did you did you decide you wanted to write a book about about how to help people meditate?

SPEAKER_01 21:04

Well, it started as like a little five-pager I gave people who would come to me, you know, and they were interested in meditation, they wanted me to show them how to do it, and then it grew from there. Um, you know, like I told you, I just had a conversation this morning with a literary agent in New York City, and uh, I don't know if I want to write that book anymore. It was she basically said, You're not promising anything, you're telling people you're not enlightened and you're not special, and uh basically leave you alone and just stare at the wall. And uh, if you have any questions, maybe you'll answer them. She's like, Well, why would anybody want to read that? I said, You're you're right.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

But I think there is like, I mean, I think I I I hear what she's saying, but I still think that there's some obviously. What you're doing is working, you know, because you've helped inmates, you've worked with seniors. So obviously, the method that you're using, and no, you may not be promising anything, but you know, you're you're offering like another tool for the toolbox.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

Well, what I can say is I would put it at about 50-50. 50% of the time, I'd like to get this percentage up. 50% of the time, you know, it really helps people. The other 50% of the time that they can't be helped. And you know, often they'll start to look at me as like, well, you think you know better than me. You know, you you you're saying you're balanced and you're not, you know, those type of things. And whenever you put yourself out like that to try to help people, you're gonna get that. So I understand that. And I do listen to what they say and try to, you know, if they tell me I'm too abrasive or I'm this or that, I try to tone it down a bit. But I am a Marine from Philly, and you know, I work with guys on death row and I see old people, you know, elderly people, excuse me, um, you know, pass away almost weekly, often alone. So I'm surrounded by a lot of, you know, voluntarily, I'm surrounded by a lot of misery and darkness. So I think that rough edge protects me a little, but I, you know, I do need to work on it, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Do you think there's also like, because you see so much like sadness, do you think there's like an urgency in you to like want to get the book out to people, even if it's maybe, even if maybe like the language is a little rough? Like, is it does it come from a sense of urgency to like you really want people to no?

SPEAKER_01 23:54

No, it doesn't. Like the approach I have is if it can help a couple of people, like really help a couple of people, that's good enough for me. So I've been sit I've been done it for a while, and I'm sitting on it, you know, I don't know what to do with it. Self-publish, just put it out there for free, whatever. Um, and after talking to that agent, because she said you can just self-publish and say whatever you want, but I was laughing the whole time, and so was she. Like it was a fun meeting.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

No, it wasn't like she wasn't tearing me a new one. Okay, she's in New York, you know, she's been doing this for 30 years as an agent. Yeah, and and she told me a book it reminded her of, and she said, you know, maybe if you just tone it down, make some little promises, you know, like say the book's worthwhile somehow, you know, then you might be able to get published. But she said, if you want to do it yourself, you can say whatever you want. So I'm gonna take time and consider what she said. But it was fun, you know. She tore me a new one, but in a fun way.

SPEAKER_00 25:07

Maybe, but even I mean, I definitely hope the book comes out, you know. Um, do you think it would be a shame for you to put all that work into it? And then it not get into the hands of people.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

Well, all I can do is plant the seed and try to take care of it and give it good conditions to grow. And if it bears fruit, it bears fruit.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Now, have you seen any um well let's can you talk about like a mental how mental ill those suffering from mental illness can benefit from meditation? Like what are some benefits maybe even you've seen?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Well, you have to be careful what you promise, which is what the agent had to promote, you know, you gotta prom you gotta promise people things if you want them. But I I really shy away from any promises, but I can say what it did for me. Okay. After I, you know, went to therapy with a legitimate psychiatrist, went through expos uh prolonged exposure if you have trauma, some sort of trauma treatment, and then found the right combo of meds. That only went so far. Meditation took me as far as I'm gonna go as a human being, I think, as long as I keep learning and you know doing it. Um, it I couldn't focus at all before, even with the therapy in the meds. Right. Medication helped me really focus, helped me to stop looking back so much into the past, and then acknowledging when I do it, you know, you don't want to ignore things, but you you just want to acknowledge them. And then it it stopped me from constantly um having anxiety about what I what was to come, what I had to do, even the simplest things, you know, would give me anxiety, you know, just bills and getting to work, and it was all everything was a struggle, just getting out of bed was a struggle. And although it's still present, yeah, you know, because you never really get over those type of things, PTSD. You're not cured, I'm not cured, you know. I still have it, but it doesn't rule me anymore, right? So I think that's meditation that helped.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Now, like I'm guilty of I've used independent on like meditation apps. What is the drawback of using those?

SPEAKER_01 27:49

Well, I think it depends on the particular app, and you know, I I can't really judge them, but I can say that when you listen to an app or a guided meditation, um, certain things are certain techniques are planted in you, ideas are planted in in you, and you don't necessarily know the source. You know, you may know the source, but you may not. So, you know, just sitting in front of the wall alone each day, you start to guide yourself. If you do it consistency consistently and don't get discouraged or think you know you're gonna be enlightened or change too quickly, you'll begin to be so balanced that you actually hear the balanced voice in yourself.

SPEAKER_00 28:44

Did you now you mentioned that you did struggle with like with with with drinking? Did at least in your experience, did the meditation help take maybe those, did it help take those cravings away for from alcohol?

SPEAKER_01 28:58

Uh it doesn't take the cravings away, but what it takes away is you know, it helps with the decision making. Okay. You know, like I'm I'm actually afraid to drink. Yeah, I still would would love to drink. You know, you know, I'm an alcoholic, uh, or at least close. Um, so yeah, I would love to three beers and I'm all anxiety's gone, you know. I'm totally relaxed. But what's the price? And you know, how do I feel the next day and how does it interrupt my focus? So I have a very simple you know principle. It's if it helps me get up in the morning and meditate for 30 minutes, it's good. If it hinders me, it may not be.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

Now, do you work with um lit um do you work with kids at all too?

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Like schools or yeah, I actually started working with kids and athletes because I coached soccer for a middle school and a high school, and I I coached the little the little kids too, and that kind of I did what I called focus drills. Okay, I didn't call it meditation because I'm I'm in the south here, and I didn't want anybody to feel as though I was pushing some kind of alternative religion on their children, that wouldn't have ended pretty. So I just called it focus drills, but it was meditation. And for instance, the last team I coached, we hadn't won a game in the beginning of the season. We were losing everything, but I because I think of the focus drills and the how it's kind of slowed down the game for everyone and helped them make better decisions, I saw a major improvement towards the end of the year.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

That's I wonder, um, especially with sports, that's interesting, like having those focus drills. So I wonder if that helps like in the moment, like in a high stress moment.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Well, theoretically, if you're putting yourself in a balanced position each day, your body's gonna learn you know how to maintain that balance and clarity in a stressful situation.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

Have I one do you now do you work with with veterans too? Have you have you worked with veterans?

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Yeah, I yes, I have. And usually it starts off with meditation and then it it ends up me helping them navigate the VA system.

SPEAKER_00 31:41

When you meet someone who's like who you say like it works like 50 50 percent of the 50% of the time, do you think sometimes that's like a mental like a block they have up, or is there some people who just cannot access like meditation or can't?

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Yeah, I think it's a lack of trust, you know. I'm not saying I'm the most trustworthy person, but all I'm saying is just get in this position on your own and stare at the wall. I mean, what I don't charge, I don't want anything from it except the fulfilling life that I have. I mean, it's fulfilling to try to help people, but I think the ones where it doesn't work, it it's definitely trust. And maybe I do something to break their trust, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

I'm not saying I I I'm perfect, but I I wonder like how many I wonder if sometimes people come in with almost like a they want to try to prove it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

You know, I don't think I've had that. No, no, I I think because of my personality, like I'm so try to be laid back and cool and not promise anything. If you're not promising anything, they can't prove anything wrong.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

No, like I like your fact because you said you take the religion right out of it.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Well, I definitely have been influenced by Buddhism. I mean, I can't deny it. Um, but I have seen that the people who do the rituals, you know, and and maintain the tradition, and in some cases, they lose the compassion because they come, they become so serious about the the rules and the culture and the tradition and the hierarchy, especially. You know, oh, I've been meditating this long and doing all this stuff, so I'm qualified to help people, you're not, type of deal. So they kind of lose the compassionate part about it. And I think all of the Zen masters and Buddhist masters throughout history basically said it's all about cultivating compassion. Yeah. So that I learned through Buddhism. The other stuff, maybe people need it, maybe it's good, you know, maybe it was good for me to learn all that and do all that because I did do it. So I can't discount it all the way, but I can say that anybody of any religion can meditate. And all the founders of the, you know, at least major monotheistic traditions, they all meditated, yeah, including Jesus and Moses and Muhammad.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

And it's it's such a simple like practice to do, but we talked about it a little bit like beforehand, like all this sensory like overwhelm that we face like every day with technology and social media and TV, and like I wonder how many like of those sources, like those sources get into us, and we just they disrupt our nervous system too, you know.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Sure, and they distract us, so we're always looking for distractions. But I grew up in front of a television, I remember you know doing my homework with the Brady bunch on. Tells you how old I am. But you know, so I I was like that. I always needed the TV on or something, some sort of stimulation. And uh today it's mind-boggling, you know, the amount of stimulation that's going on. And I think that is one of the beauties of it, that when you stare at the blank wall, still and silent, there's no external stimulation. Now you hear birds chirp and you hear noises outside, or you hear your dog bark, and and maybe at first you get irritated by it, yeah, you know, like I'm trying to have some quiet time here, but then you examine the irritation, yeah, let it come and go. So even that's valuable, even the noise becomes valuable. But yeah, it it is interesting if you've never like people go on vacation and kind of stop everything, maybe. Right, maybe they do, maybe they don't, but this is kind of like a vacation from your almost from yourself every single solitary day.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

I wonder if like sometimes like your decision making gets better because you're not so influenced by all the outside sources.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Yes, I can say uh that I have uh I can safely say that I freed myself from a lot of uh influences. However, that could be a negative too, you know, because if I'm not taking anyone's input, you know, not reading anything, I tend to really be careful what I take in, but that I have to be careful. You know, that can have a negative side too. I can start to feel alone or isolated or separate. So I have to be careful there. But yeah, um, I kind of see myself in a historical time period, in a country, in a body, you know, and uh I see that all of this is not as permanent and fixed, including myself and my view of all this is not as fixed as I once thought, which is very, very helpful, you know, in dealing with things.

SPEAKER_00 37:34

Does it help with um has it helped you, I should say, with acceptance of things in situations? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

But once again, there, you know, this is probably why the agent said my book's not very appealing, because as soon as I say something, I say like the opposite, what the de what the the you know, the problem with it could be, or the negative. That's just the way you know, I'm always trying to present both. Um, but you know, the negative of acceptance is you can harm people, maybe, but they don't understand your practice that you see things as transient. Like if I told my children, like, listen, you're transient beings, your personality, you know, it's temporary, your whole life is you know transient and uh transforming. I don't know if that would be good. So, you know, I'm always saying be careful, and uh so we have to be careful with those broad concepts.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

I and I like how you I like your your caution around certain language too. You know, I think that's important too, because that those are messages we tell ourselves as well, too. You know, have you found over time with your meditation that you were kinder to yourself as well? So I imagine with everything that you went through, there was some a lot of to wade through.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Yeah, I think I'm kinder to everyone um until that challenging person comes, you know, who just drives me mad or crosses my boundary, and then the marine comes out, and then they're like, Oh, you're supposed to be so compassionate and balanced, and you know, so sometimes the marine comes out, and uh, you know, whether it's justified or not, or whether I need to really work on that anger, you know. Um, I probably do need to work on it, but then again, sometimes it's necessary.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

How do you that's gotta be a hard balance to find sometimes between being the marine because you just don't forget everything like you said that you went through, you know, that that still have they still shaped you in some way. That's gotta be a hard balance to find for you as a human being between being the marine and maintaining like a spiritual practice like this.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

Yeah, you you before I stepped away from formal Zen Buddhism, my teacher said just what you said. He said, you know, he's he's worried, or not worried, but he said, just pay attention to the anger because it could limit you, right? And at the time I really didn't want to hear what he had to say, but I just heard it from you again. So yeah, you know, it's still I have to be even kinder if if I can.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

I think it's important for us to be kind to ourselves too, you know, give ourselves some compassion because you you seem to you work with a lot of people who need a lot of compassion, and that's that takes a lot from you to do that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

You got a really good point there because sometimes I'm so drained from giving everything away. Yeah, uh, I had to learn how to maintain that balance as well. When I first started working with the seniors in particular, yeah, that was hard. I would come home exhausted and cut up from you know getting down and putting them in their wheelchairs, and you get bruised and you have to clean up, you know, defecation and urine. And man, I the the I really wanted to drink. Yeah, because what's the point of living? You know, this is how you end up, and that was hard. I I would say the first six months, eight months, it it took a lot of work to get back to balance after experiencing that.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

What do you do to like kind of refill your cup sometimes outside of meditation?

SPEAKER_01 41:46

Um, well, I have kids, right? They're amazing for that. Uh they're you know, they're the greatest, to be honest. Everybody says that about their kids, but I really like my kids and I'm you know really happy where they are. Um and then you know, the natural world, hiking, and I exercise a lot. The guys in prison taught me a prison workout. So you know, if I don't feel like going outside, I have my prison workout. That's great. Uh so working out big time. Um I sing, I do music.

SPEAKER_00 42:36

I I wonder what like what a gift you've given your kids by going down this path of meditation. Like you've no doubt altered their life in a positive way.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

Well, let's uh let's come back in 10 years and then we'll we'll determine that. But so far, uh so good.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

I I think that's whether they're into it or not, I think you've planted the seed of it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 43:05

Well, they don't have much stress or trauma or uh you know violence or drinking or drugs or any of that in the home. So I think that's gonna, you know, it's quiet. Yeah, except when we all start joking around or brother and sister start fighting with one another. Well, that's happy. It's all normal, yeah. Um, so hopefully it rubs off on them. But of course, you know, me, I'm always thinking of the other side. I don't know how much of a realistic picture it paints for them once they get out into the world, but I'd rather have them determine or learn all that on their own than from me, you know, the the darkness.

SPEAKER_00 43:53

No, I think that like I really think you you did something, you know, I'm only good for your Yourself, but for them and doing what you did, you know, taking the turn. Because I think it takes a lot of bravery to be like, hey, I need help. Yeah, that wasn't an easy thing to say. Um, you know, because I I don't know the language back then, but I don't know if it was it encouraged when you were in the military to seek help or no.

SPEAKER_01 44:18

No, back then it was, you know, I don't maybe they mentioned, you know, that the VA was available when you got out. I I don't really recall, but yeah, really I had to get to the point where I just had to have help. Yeah. And we all, I think we all need help. We really do, all of us, whether we're struggling or not. You can't do anything alone.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

No, and I think I think sometimes sometimes you hear like, you know, really sad, tragic stories of of veterans who didn't weren't able to get the help that they need, you know. And I like that you're taking this path and you're trying to help not only veterans, but those like inmates in particular. And that's gotta be intimidating, I'm sure, to go into a prison sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

It was at first, but uh once they realized I was you know real, I mean prisoners can tell right away. But uh then it it wasn't so hard. And now they have video chat and email and calls, so I don't even have to drive up there, it's about four or five hours away.

SPEAKER_00 45:40

Oh, okay. So you can just like hop on a zoom, like a call. Yeah, and they can and they can call me whenever they get a chance, and if I answer, I I can answer, but I think that that I think you're doing you're doing some deep spiritual work there working with inmates because that's that's heavy stuff to lift and to carry and take with you. Um and do you have any um I want to say suggestions, but any thoughts for people who are facing like either addiction or just struggling in general? Like, do you have any words of I wanna say encouragement, but maybe like a suggestion or like a place to start?

SPEAKER_01 46:26

It's very, very simple not to laugh about people in a situation like that, but really it's very simple. The first step is to just stop, stop, somehow, stop all the madness, all the turning and desperation and uh negative, you know, self-worth and all of that. Just stop it and realize you need help, and then make getting help a priority. You know, with the internet, it's easier to actually make things easier these days. Most communities have free mental health clinics where you could just walk in and it's free. You don't even need insurance or anything. But the point is, is admit you need help and then make it number one priority, or at least you know, if you're hooked on a drug, you're not going to be able to make help number you gotta have your drug. At least make it number two. Just get help any way you possibly can, you know.

SPEAKER_00 47:39

And do you have like uh I'm curious, like, do you have like any quotes that you that you like in that you go like use in your daily life or mantras that you say to yourself? Or even if you're having like a rough day, maybe not every day. Is there something that you that resonates with you?

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Well, usually I say just do it, just do it. Like, I don't feel like going to work, I don't just do it. Oh, you gotta drive your daughter 30 minutes to school, just do it at six in the morning, just do it, just do it. Don't feel like doing the laundry, do it, just do it. So that one's good, just do it. That's it, and then drop it. Um, and then one I came up with today was what was it? Um, the best intents often have the worst results.

SPEAKER_02 48:34

I like it.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

So be careful of you know trying to push, like you said, the urgency to get the book out. I'm very careful with that type of thing because um our intent may be to do good, but it may have the worst result in some cases. So you always, I mean, you can safeguard, but you can end up uh making yourself and others worse if you're not ready to help people and put too much pressure on yourself, too. Another good one I like is that I do what I do for me first, then for my children and family, then my for my community, and if there's anything left over, I do it for God. Most people put God first, like they're doing it all for God, but I'm very careful about that. Because uh if you think you're doing things from God and you're hearing the voice of God, that can that can go astray quickly.

SPEAKER_00 49:40

Yeah, that could go sideways really quick. Now, do you do you want to talk about your website at all? Do you want to like? I know you said your book's kind of in you're not sure where it's going. Did you want to mention your website at all?

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Well, it's just stare at the wall.org, and there's a nice little video on there that could get you started with meditation. It's pretty simple and clear. And uh my contact info is there. If anybody needs help, they can reach out.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

Are you on social? Are you on social media at all?

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Yeah, I think I'm on uh pretty much, I don't know, most of them. My social media person quit. So I'm on there for now.

SPEAKER_00 50:24

Well, Mark, it's been lovely talking to you. I've had I had a lot of fun with our meditation. That's something I'm gonna try to do five minutes every day for two weeks. It's a great start. I'm gonna see how it goes because five minutes it's like trying to do like a one-minute plank. You know, it's like it's a lot harder than it sounds sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 50:45

It is. Only one person actually did it right away, like two weeks in a row without missing. Only one person out there.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

And it's okay if you screw up, it's okay if you screw up.

SPEAKER_01 50:55

Yeah, just keep it in the back of your mind.

SPEAKER_00 50:58

And it's just five minutes out of like the totality of your day, is not that much.

SPEAKER_01 51:02

Yeah, just watch, just see where you're at, you know. Watch what's going on in you for five minutes. That's all it is.

SPEAKER_00 51:09

And I learned a lot today, and I enjoyed our conversation. And thank you for being here today. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks. Thank you, Mark.

SPEAKER_01 51:17

My pleasure. If you need anything, I'm here. Thank you, Mark. See you later.

unknown 51:22

Bye.

SPEAKER_01 51:23

Bye.