Gray Area Drinking: Faith, Shame & Freedom with Susan Larkin

Meet Susan Larkin And Her Work

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Today I am excited to welcome Susan Larkin to Recovery Catalyst Podcast. Susan is a Christian life coach helping midlife women of faith who are sober curious explore what it looks like to drink less or to take a break from drinking altogether without shame, judgment, or a label attached. Susan is a senior this naked mind coach and master gray area drinking coach. She works at the intersection of faith and science, helping women understand how alcohol is affecting them physically, mentally, and spiritually, and guiding them with grace toward freedom and a life that they can't wait to wake up to. And Susan also has her own podcast called Drinkless with Susan, where she also helps women explore their relationship with alcohol without feeling pressured to make forever decisions. And with that, I will welcome Susan. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. I'm so happy to have you because I adore your podcast. I had such a giggle today. I was listening to your most recent episode. Um, I deserve a drink.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

And you were talking about um how you were cleaning and you had those like really sexy like yellow cleaning gloves on and like holding a glass of wine. Yeah, it's a talent. And I was like, oh my god, like I've been there. Um and it was like like it was done in such like a nice way, because I think a lot of women can relate to that moment. And so I guess I kind of want to start um with that was a brief background, but maybe a little bit more about you in general and like your personal like turning point, like when you um when alcohol gradually became a way uh more to cope than it's just something to enjoy.

When Wine Becomes A Coping Tool

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Yeah, yeah. Well, I did not drink or this problem with drinking didn't really start until my late mid to late 40s, which is you know, sometimes unusual, but because well, I did drink a little bit in my in high school years, but I was doing plays a lot. And so I was just really active in in my high school doing a lot of theater, and then I went off to UCLA and I was a theater major there. And so we would drink, you know, at the after parties and stuff, but it wasn't like a daily thing, it was social. Um, but anytime I drank, which wasn't that often, as I mentioned, I wasn't a great drinker. Like I would say I was a barfer, you know. Like I was the girl at the sorority party who's out, you know, barfing in the gutter. So yeah, really attractive. So I didn't, you know, it just I I so I guess now looking back, it didn't occur to me at the time, but now looking back, I'm like, yeah, you didn't have a shutoff switch then either. But I just thought, oh wow, I can't handle my liquor like other people or whatever. And because I didn't do it that often, it didn't seem like it was a problem. And then in the early years of of being a mom and being married, uh I uh started going to church in my 20s. I didn't grow up in in church or in any kind of religion at all. And so I kind of found it when I was at UCLA in college and started going to church with a friend, and that's where I met my husband. And so part of our, we would have wine when we would go out to dinner, but we didn't really drink at home. And so I didn't drink when my children were young, except our on vacations and and special nights out and such. Um, so then fast forward, I get uh a job at Yale University School of Medicine, and then I get promoted to this management position. And this was in my mid-40s, acting career's over by then. Um, and I uh I got my uh at the same time I was getting my MBA. So I was promoted to a manager position. I was getting my MBA. My kids were in like uh they're six years apart, elementary school and high school. So I'm going like a million different places, you know, different ways. And so wine kind of became this way to relax at the end of the day, or to like I called it my swing oil to go from working full time to coming home and making dinner and then sitting down to write a paper for my MBA. And um, you know, I told myself all the lies that we tell ourselves, like it'll make me more creative, it'll it relaxes me. It, you know, and pretty soon one glass became two, became three. And I was very conscious about, you know, what the guidelines were for healthy drinking at the time, which is you know, seven drinks for women a week. This is probably back in like 2010. And um, and I knew I was over that. And so I started to be concerned right away, um, like wow, you know, and so then I started doing the trying to control it, you know, counting in my in my date book or my diary, you know, like, okay, today I had zero, that was a good day, okay. The next day I had two, then I had three, et cetera. And just starting that process of trying to control it. And um, and it was really uh I it was hard. I mean, that's when it starts to become hard. That's where in the in the this naked mind methodology that I was trained in, this is what we would call the aware stage. Before that, we're asleep. We don't really realize we have a problem. And then we get in the painful stage of aware is you're aware you have a problem, but you don't have any capability to do anything about it. And that is very frustrating. Um, and you can also convince yourself you don't have a problem, right? So you go back and forth of do I really have a problem? Nobody else thinks I have a problem. And meanwhile, I really think that the drinking culture had shifted to where, you know, two or three glasses of wine a night has become normal, which is a real problem. Like we really normalize that in our society. And it was really marketed to women as, you know, this is the way that you relax. This is your reward at the end of a long day. And to your point, you know, about my latest podcast episode, I deserve a drink. I deserve it for you know, hitting this finish line and this finish line and overachieving and overfunctioning. And so that's kind of what alcohol became to me is this it kept me in a state of burnout. It kept me in a state of of overfunctioning because overfunctioning meant then I got wine in order to relax from all that overfunctioning instead of you know solving the overfunctioning problem, having too many things going on at one time.

Burnout, Overfunctioning, And Double Shame

SPEAKER_01 7:05

Um, too many plates in the air. But that's such a familiar story for women in their drinking, I think. And I think women sometimes drink differently than men. And I think it's important to have coaches or programs and things that really address the reasons why women drink, and particularly even Christian women. Um, so I've shifted my coaching focus to be a little bit more faith-based. It was always, I've always been a Christian. So I was like a coach who happened to be a Christian, and now I'm sort of shifting my focus to being a Christian coach and like really wanting to be there for Christian women or women of faith, because I think that the stigma can be even worse and the hiding can be even worse if you um are active in your ministry or you go to church. You can feel a lot. I I call it the double whammy. You can feel double shame. You're shame, you feel ashamed that you're you have a problem and you feel ashamed that you're like letting God down in some way. And it could be just really debilitating. And I really lived in that place for a long time, um, until I was able to to find a program that was not shame-based in order to start to change my relationship with alcohol. And and that was really just a process of learning about alcohol, really, learning what it is, that it is an addictive substance to humans, not just some people that to everyone can become addicted to it, just like smoking, you know. Um, so that really helped me because I kept, I was of the belief that like you're either a normal drinker or you're an alcoholic. And I felt like I was kind of in between. And I definitely didn't want to call myself an alcoholic. That label just didn't resonate with me. And so then it meant, okay, I have to work really hard to become a normal drinker. Like there was no option of like, why don't you just quit because it's not working for you? And uh, that's what I try to offer to women is like, hey, if this isn't working for you, you know, there's a third door, which is hey, maybe this just isn't for you, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:04

Yeah. So yeah, that's a little bit now.

Gray Area Drinking On A Spectrum

SPEAKER_00 9:09

You touched a little bit on it. Um, but you said there's that third door. And is that third door gray area drinking?

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Is that well no, I think that well, I see the third door as being deciding. You don't need to adopt a label, you can just decide to quit drinking because it's not it's an addictive substance and it's it's there's no nutritional value to it and it makes you feel like crap. But yes, I mean, gray area drinking is what I would say is that middle place, that place where you're not a every now and again drinker, um, but you're also not at the end stage um or you know, um a severe alcohol use disorder, which then maybe people would feel comfortable calling themselves an alcoholic, but you're in like the moderate to mild end of alcohol use disorder. Um and so that is the gray area that I work with with women and um and and just letting them know that it is a spectrum, it's not this two-camp thing where it's like normal alcoholic, but it's a spectrum. And again, it's mild, moderate, severe. And so wherever you fall in that spectrum, you can decide. You don't need to wait for a rock bottom, you don't need to get wait for it to get severe. You can decide to step off that spectrum anytime you want without a label, shame, or um, and I feel like women, midlife women now, and kind of this new sobriety movement that you you see maybe on Instagram, where we're not anonymous. We're like going out there saying, This is great. Like the day I gave, you know, stop drinking, I feel so much better, my life's so much better, and really being out there and talking about it's okay to decide not to drink if it doesn't work for you, just like you would maybe decide to go gluten-free or dairy-free because it doesn't work for you.

Why Overdrinking Feels Normal Now

SPEAKER_00 11:04

Why why do you think gray area drinking can be so difficult to like recognize and talk about?

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Um, I think, well, for the reason that I mentioned that we've normalized over drinking, like we've really normalized drinking a bottle of wine a night for some women. You know, people go, you know, a lot of uh there's memes about it, it's mommy's wine time, or you wine, so mommy does her wine and all kinds of stuff like that, you know, about especially with the mommy wine culture. Um and women, so we've normalized over drinking, number one. Um so, and also uh again, that the stigma of if you decide to stop drinking, that must mean there's something wrong with you, or that you have a quick capital P problem. And you know, there's nothing else that substance that we decide to choose or choose not to ingest or do. Like if you stop smoking, people don't go, oh, I guess you had a problem, you know, or if you decide to eat stop eating gluten or you need to go dairy-free, and they're like, Oh, I guess you had a problem. But with alcohol, there's still that stigma. So I think that that is the thing that keeps us sometimes from either talking about it or wanting to share that, hey, I think I might be drinking a little too much. Maybe I should take a break, or maybe it's just not working for me. Maybe, you know, I just notice that I'm not a one and I'm not an I'm not an every now and again drinker. If I drink, I always want more.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yeah. And yeah, just because you're not like a a so-called alcoholic yet, doesn't mean you can't get there, you know? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Well, that's and that's how it works. Like alcohol only moves in the alcohol spectrum typically only goes in one direction. Like you, you know, it gets darker and darker, and it can get dark pretty fast. Like so I talk about the gray areas, like light gray, medium gray, dark gray. And some people, when they start, you know, um, you know, can move pretty fast into the dark gray. And so why I also was like, why wait for rock bottom? Or they say, you know, you your rock bottom is when you decide to stop drinking, put the shovel down, you know. Or stop digging. I think I said drinking, but yeah, when you decide, well, both when you decide to stop drinking and digging is when you decide, you know, you don't need to hit a rock bottom. Why wait for a bad thing to happen to take a look at your drinking? If you already kind of know it feels off for you, you know that you desire it a little bit too much, you know that you look forward to that five o'clock glass of wine a little too much, then you know that there's a little hook in there for you.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:53

Yeah, yeah.

Taking A Break Without Forever

SPEAKER_00 13:55

And one thing that I like about um your podcast and your method is that you you don't um you don't have to you t you tell your audience you don't have to decide forever. You know, um, you encourage women to get curious about the relationship without feeling like I have to stop today and never drink again. And you know, because some programs, which you and I have talked about, the pressure is there to like never drink again. And why how did it feel for you when you were able to take that pressure like off of yourself to say like you know, not drinking forever?

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah. Well, it the the not drinking forever just fed into my own, and I think women have a lot of more shame issues than men, fed into that shame thinking, black and white thinking of I'm good if I don't drink and I'm bad if I do drink, you know what I mean? Instead, it's drinking is just a behavior, you know, like anything else. And what's underneath that, you know what I mean? So, like Gabor Matei says, you know, it's not it's not really about the addiction, it's about what the pain that's underneath it. What are you using alcohol to solve? So just seeing it and being able to work with it like that, instead of coming from an abstinence perspective, and that's the the end goal. Just don't drink. That's what I so I did for a brief time go to AA and and but at the time um early on when I was just it's sort of like three or four nights a week, I'm drinking three glasses of wine and thinking, you know, this isn't good. And so then I'm going to these meetings and looking around, going, oh, these are not my people. Like I, we're the people that just drink a little too much white wine. Like I didn't feel, you know, at I didn't feel like I was hearing my story. So then I like I said, I went back and went, well, I guess my only alternative is to try to be a normal drinker. So then I'm gonna work really hard at that. So, but um yeah, so our brain, well, learning how our brain works, our brain does not like forever, like how do you even know if you're successful forever until you die? You know? So it's kind of like just taking forever off the table because that can throw you into a panic. Yeah, it's way too much pressure, but making a firm decision around a specific period of time to take a break in order to see and learn how alcohol was working in your life, to see what are the things that I'm drinking over, am I using it as a coping mechanism? Is it even working as a coping mechanism? And are there other more healthy ways to deal with stress or to also, is alcohol keeping me, like I said, in a state of burnout? Maybe I shouldn't be working full-time with my kids and getting my MBA and all these plates in the air. Maybe I should be working on why I'm feeling burnt out instead of drinking over it. And so drinking can sometimes keep us stuck in those patterns that we're drinking to relieve. So it's really just an opportunity to take a break to see is alcohol really serving me? Is um how do I feel when I'm not drinking? And how do I want to feel in my life and make your choice based on how you want to live your life and how you want to feel in your life, not necessarily around drink or don't drink? And then does alcohol fit into this lifestyle, into this, into the life that I want to have for myself? Um, we talk about, you know, a life that you want to wake up to. Um, and what do you need to do to move move towards that? And does alcohol fit into that or not? And then I find people usually come to their own conclusions about whether it's something that they want to, you know, continue. So I did 100 days. Um, my first goal was a hundred days when I did the This Naked Mind program. And then I got to a hundred days and um went, okay, wow, okay, I want to go another hundred. And then when I got to 200, I was like, I'm just gonna keep going. Like I it doesn't fit into my life anymore. And I can see that bringing it back into my life is not gonna benefit me. I'm just gonna end up, and I knew this from experimenting with that quote unquote trying to be a normal drinker for all those years, that I knew that the minute I reintroduced alcohol again, I was just gonna end up back in the same old patterns.

Neuroplasticity And The Habit Highway

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

Um, and there's science behind that. The science is in your brain, like when we drink, or we create neural pathways around a habit. A habit is a neuropathway in your brain. Your brain likes to conserve energy, and so it creates a habit loop that is like a highway that just runs on automatic. So you get home, you put your purse down, you get the bottle of wine, you pour yourself a glass. That's like a habit. That's you know, it's there's also addiction there because it's an addictive substance that is included in this habit, which makes it a very sticky habit and a hard habit sometimes to break, but we can. And when we don't introduce the substance and we create new coping mechanisms and new things, so now my new pattern so is come home from work and put my running shoes on and go for a walk, or um go to my yoga class or whatever as a coping mechanism for the stress of the day. So now I'm creating new neural pathways. So the old neural pathways atrophy for all the jobs that you gave alcohol. So we probably have like I had probably eight lean highways of all these jobs that I gave with alcohol. But and so they atrophy, and so you stop having cravings, you stop being drawn to alcohol for any of those things, you become truly free from the desire for alcohol as you create these new neuropathways. It's sort of like you live over here on your new freeway or your new pathways, and you let the other ones you put a detour sign down and you don't drive on those old neuropathways in again. But if you drink again, maybe not the first time, but shortly, shortly after, those neuropathways just light back up again.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:03

And then all those highway lanes are open again, and you're traveling, and you just go from zero to 60 or 100 really fast. And I saw this in my own life as I was experimenting. And so just that knowledge is and but it's not like there's something wrong with me. It's just that's science, that's how it works in your brain. And so to stay living on the new neuropathways and the new roads and the new life that I've created, the life I want to wake up to, I don't want to drink because that would like again open up those old highways. And I just don't want to go there. I don't want to start that fight again, you know. So that's how I explain it to myself, you know, um, and and clients, because I see it all the time. And I I work with clients one-on-one, particularly, and a lot of times they come to me after they've already done this. They're like, Oh, I had a year alcohol free, and then I started drinking again, and like now I cannot, I can't ditch it this time.

SPEAKER_00 21:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

And and so then we we work from there, from there to to unearth whatever this, the, the leftover or the not leftover, but the the things that are underneath the iceberg. What were the beliefs that you had about what alcohol was doing for you um that we need to still work on? And then they get free again, and it's like they know not to go back. And so they are truly free, you know, and that's that's such a beautiful

Faith, Grace, And Getting Unstuck

SPEAKER_01 21:31

thing.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Um and one thing that is that that you mentioned um is your faith. And your faith is is not only a central part of of your life, but but your coaching. And how did your your faith influence your your journey towards becoming alcohol free? And how did your

SPEAKER_01 22:00

your your faith um change once you became a non-drinker oh that is this is a complicated question because my faith is involved in some of the many of the aspects of of the of my story in some ways in an not negative but in a way that that led me away in some ways to from my faith but um so early on that feeling of there's something not quite right with my drinking I believe was the Holy Spirit kind of giving me that nudge early on right and I see that with with women like this isn't good for you the Holy Spirit knows you know this isn't this is not gonna end well this is not good for you so like again stop digging and and let's look at this and um and so I went to my pastor at that time and went you know I think I might be drinking a little too much and they were like oh well if you're drinking too much you're an alcoholic you should go to AA and I was like huh and like uh and I was in leadership at church and on the worship team and things and so I was like okay you know I wanted to be you know not obedient isn't the word but just you know compliant to what their requirements were you know or request and so I did go to AA for a while and I just felt like again like it wasn't the right fit for me at the time of for the level of my drinking and I just didn't feel like I was I mean I just didn't feel like I didn't have in I was powerless and I didn't feel like I was an alcoholic. So I didn't believe in like most of it you know but I'm going I mean there would be meetings and they'd be like you know you go around and say you're an alcoholic and I would literally like choke on it and be like you know and and I am not a person I'm a I'm a you know I'm not a person that's gonna sit there and be defiant and go, I'm not gonna say that. You know, I like to go along and get along with everybody. And so and and the truth is I did feel better not drinking in my life. I felt fabulous. I just also was really angry because I was like how did I let myself get to this place and what happened and I didn't really understand about alcohol and how it works in your brain and body at all. I just thought oh I guess there's something wrong with me. I remember talking to a friend I'm like I don't know according to AA I have a disease and I'm defective and she's like I don't I don't think so Susan like you know one minute you are and the next minute you're you're you know so it just was really hard. And so then I stopped going and again went back to trying to quote unquote be a normal drinker and I was moderating for many years and would moderate okay and then over drink sometimes and be mad at myself and put myself on 30 days and go back and forth and around and around and just spent so much energy in this sort of moderation hell that I call um so but during that time I mean I did notice that when I wasn't drinking I just felt like I had a much more direct line to God. And so but at the time when I went back to drinking then I felt like I was hiding that I was drinking first I was hiding that I was going to AA and then I was hiding that I went back to drinking. So I was just always hiding and that that spirit of hiding is just so detrimental to you know relationships and it's detrimental to your relationship with God you know and in the back of my mind I just always thought you know I guess I just don't love Jesus enough to quit drinking. So I'm a I'm a jerk you know or I'm a bad Christian. And so just sort of it tainted my relationship with God in that way and made it harder for me to feel and that's not God. I'm saying this is me and my dumb brain you know and my human brain of um you know because God always has grace and God you know loves you and loves loved me whether I was drinking or not but it was me saying that you know what I mean um and so for your years I just sort of rolled around having a mediocre spiritual life and mediocre drinking life and a mediocre life you know like it was really what I say my life was gray you know it just got grayer and grayer and it was just sort of um and so then when I did decide to make change my relationship with alcohol um I was still going to church but our church at the time closed the one that we were super involved in um the pastor retired and there was nobody to really take over so then we were sort of not in a in a body that we knew people or and then we were sort of out there on our own and kind of going to different churches and and so not as involved. And so then when I was seeking sobriety it kind of felt like I needed to go outside of any kind of faith in order to get sober. And so but I still was praying and still had my relationship with God. It was just that I was also putting a ton of time and effort into looking at the science around alcohol, looking into meditation looking into tapping looking into lots of different coping mechanisms um I mean better coping mechanisms than alcohol and not that any of those were not Christian or not spiritually focused. In fact most of them now as as I've kind of been turned to my faith I see our are scriptural and our faith based because they they include nature and they include your breath and they include you know meditation you can you can have spiritual Christian meditation and so there's a lot you know I I kind of then I think felt like I just sort of needed to really embrace a lot more secular uh avenues in order to get sober. And so now I just really felt a resurgence of the Holy Spirit um just realizing like even the concept of changing your thoughts and beliefs about alcohol the renewing of your mind that's scriptural there's Romans 12, you know, um take every thought captive and renew your mind. And um so all of a sudden I just started having this realization like all these things that were helping me live my best life stay sober were from God, nature, trees, you know, sitting in sunshine sitting in stillness um just uh tons of breath work which I really love for calming your nervous system. Um and all of it is so I guess I thought they were counter Christian and and but they're not you know and and then and a lot of times I go and do things and go look I'm bringing the Holy Spirit with me if if I feel a nudge in my spirit like this isn't right I'll feel it. And so I'm not super legalistic about like oh don't do yoga or anything like that. So but as you can see it's kind of complicated because for a time I really felt like uh shame around my drinking because I felt like I didn't love God or Jesus enough to give it up. But then again he never asked us to do things that aren't like for our for the for our best right and I just didn't see it that way. It seemed more like a punishment you know um until I really learned about the truth about how alcohol works in your brain and your body and then I'm like oh yeah this is better this is best for you you know um so yeah so that's kind of complicated but it's honest and um and so when I work with women who are maybe in the you know in the lower end of the gray area drinking and they but they really are feeling the nudge from the Holy Spirit that you know this is something that isn't good for them. I just I feel like I really want to help that woman to out of that shame spiral around her drinking and the double whammy shame as you know the shame around the drinking and the shame that you know you're letting God down if you are drinking and and really um and learn some of these these coping mechanisms and learn that they are um of God, you know um or scriptural like the you know you go back and go, we think that we've come up with neuroplasticity just in the past you know 10 years in science it's like um it's right there in the Bible. This man think it's so he is it's like yeah and that you can renew your mind right that you can change you know your your brain or you can change your thoughts and beliefs by renewing

Alcohol In Church And Being Inclusive

SPEAKER_01 30:19

your mind. And so yeah so that's it's a complicated question but um it's I and also honestly I see like I feel like the church is really normalized drinking too and people are drinking way too much in all areas in secular church etc and we're playing with fire with an addictive substance you know so uh yeah I'm a cat I'm I go to a Catholic church and there's wine when you get the um um when you get the Eucharist yeah yeah I know and I know it is part of that culture and it is part of the traditions yeah and I get a little iffy I'm like no no you know that's not gonna go anywhere good it doesn't matter if it's in church Catherine you you can't have it um you know but again Do they have a juice juice option for people who are I wish they would uh I mean I understand the premise behind it but I think it's it's a very iffy you know like line to cross you know what I mean and I I think they should have uh because there's no true way to know if anyone's actually over 21.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

Do you know what I mean? Like you're not carding someone in church you know what I mean and so you could get someone who's like 18 drinking which would be fine because you've done some sacraments but it's not legally fine do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 31:43

Yeah so it's a little funny to me but um I I wish we could find a non-al alcoholic version of partaking in that um because that can be sometimes I'm like you know there's still that I haven't had a drink in six years but sometimes I walk by that cup and I'm like eh um you know you feel that little you know like well you know I wonder what that would feel like yeah I get that well also well I wrote a sub stack on this too that are is the church not being inclusive if they're having wine at events or because even in the Protestant church sometimes you know we're having wine at uh Bible studies or I have been to Bible studies where they're passing around oh somebody got a jug of the like the local beer you know the whatever those new brews are or the fans brews yeah micro brewing that's the word um yeah yeah and they brought brought the newest micro brew and everybody's having a little and it's like but is I think it's really important to be careful about being inclusive and yeah um are we not being respectful and there is scripture about that too about not causing another brother to stumble and everything's permissible but not everything's beneficial and you know Paul says you know I wouldn't eat meat if it were to cause another brother to stumble and so it's like should we be doing this at church if knowing how many people struggle with alcohol in the United States or anywhere in the world is it being inclusive to have alcohol at events and things so that then maybe people like yourself feel like I you can't take the sacraments you can't go to this function at your church because there's alcohol and I just think that's I was I was pretty strong about I guess I was in a mood when I wrote this sub stack is pretty fiery pretty fiery. I gotta read that I got to read that yeah it's like uh but it's but it comes from the perspective though of inclusivity and are we leaving people out or shaming people and they feel like they can't come to something or um you know I could see like I'm fine about you know going and other people are drinking in front of me it doesn't bother me but if you were in the if I were in the early days it would just be I would go well geez everybody else is drinking maybe it's okay for me too you know and so it can lead people back it can if it's yeah it can just be uh a stumbling block for people and again somebody on Instagram when I was posting about something I don't maybe it was about this Substack reached out to me in the in the DMs and said well do you feel like churches shouldn't um what do you feel about churches like offering wine at events and I said what I don't know would you pass around a pack of cigarettes like or cigars and be like hey everybody have a smoke or a joint you know like most of the time churches aren't gonna be passed being that's legal in many states but we're not gonna be like passing around a joint like no so I it's like kind of the same concept is alcohol and so um but yeah it was coming from a place of inclusivity and are we inadvertently causing a brother to stumble you know and uh yeah so that's a very that's a very valid I think that's a good question too for kind of the church to think about.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

I hope they get to a point where they can be more inclusive and um about those who can't drink or choose not to drink. And um you know because I just a funny so I remember my brothers used to be altar boys and they were getting drunk on that wine you know you know and I'm like it's funny at the time when you're 12 but then that creates a habit it starts those neural pathways kind of um you know down a tricky slope.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

And so I think that's a good point um that I hope the church would consider maybe making or doing something different I guess like juice grape juice instead or having that alternative because I know even some Protestant churches have like the gluten free wafer you know and for people who have gluten allergy I mean you should you as a member of your church should be able to take the elements that's part of your Christian experience and if you shouldn't be denied that because you don't choose not to drink alcohol like I don't or you are gluten free or whatever. And so they should at least have some sort of option where in my opinion to where you can partake of the elements and not and not be worried about your sobriety it just that seems like a no-brainer to me. I'm not sure and then the whole thing about the altar by is like there's evidence and there's there's research now that shows that the the younger people start drinking the more likely they are to develop alcohol use disorder as adults. And so like we're just signing them up for you know just sign me up for AA you know the 12 year olds and the altar you know for your future yeah like altar boy okay I mean not necessarily but you know it there is research around that. Yeah it's just um so that's the thing it's like there's evidence when I'm not making this stuff up there's research you know uh to to back this up there's science to back up how alcohol works in your brain and body and that um and it doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. That's the thing like my favoriteist thing that I say favoritist I guess that's not really a word but it's the thing I say in almost every I say it in every episode which is there's nothing wrong with you if you found yourself in a position where you've you have you're a little bit hooked on alcohol because or you were hooked a lot on alcohol because it's an addictive substance and it it's not you it's the alcohol yeah and um I think that's a big difference between your normie and alcoholic the two camps that you were on that at least I used to believe that you know there were there was only two camps and you you needed to figure out which one you were in so no I like that I like that there's there's nothing wrong with you there is a there is a science behind it.

SPEAKER_00 38:25

There is I believe as you believe there is faith behind it. But at the end of the day there is nothing actually wrong with you. It's a not drinking is a is a big topic but it doesn't mean that you're you're you're flawed or you're defective in some way. You know and I again I I like your podcast because it brings some good humor to it as well and it doesn't um it it applies the science but it it draws you closer to thinking about it versus judging you about it.

Practical Help To Change Your Drinking

SPEAKER_00 39:02

And I I like that it gets you thinking but you're not like oh God I have to decide and because that's not a decision a lot of people want to make either I'm like you know an under-the-bridge alcoholic or I'm fine and you know so um again I I love your podcast and um I think um I I have one last question for you and I want to be respectful of of your time um and that's um for a woman who who's listening today who feels she might be stuck in the cycle of drinking but she doesn't feel she can change it um what would you want her to know about herself and the possibility of of a different more enriching life for herself life that she wants to wake up to well the first thing is what I would say is there's nothing wrong with you and that just taking an experimental mindset around it is just take it some time to take a break from alcohol just to see again not forever just see how you feel when you're not drinking see all the jobs that maybe you've given alcohol and do they even work does it even work to help you with stress and then there's you know the science behind that.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

So I have a course called the Freedom Formula and where I go through a lot of the thoughts and beliefs that we have about alcohol helps us with what helps us sleep helps us with our stress it helps us with anxiety it helps us with boredom it helps us you know um it's fun and I have exercises where we explore that is it really fun it's in and of itself drinking is does it really help with stress and then there's science of what goes on in your brain and body and then there's also your own experience so you want to have your own experience and we also want to look at new information. So that's top down learning um you know your own experience and then bottom up which is your own physical experience of taking a break trying new new things and and then in the end so you you make and then I talk about moderation and the pitfalls of that but also if you want to moderate I will set you up for success for that as as well as I can and you have to experience it yourself. You know nobody can tell you and so it's just yeah let's put on this experimental mindset and just experiment with it and see and see how you feel and um and learn about how alcohol works in your brain and body and and then you get to decide from your own experience how you want alcohol to be in your life and maybe that'll be zero you know maybe that'll be I don't know I'm gonna try moderating and then you see how that goes you know I'm I'm there as your coach to help you reach your goals and then and to help ask you questions so that you make up your own mind about it. Not telling you what to do um but helping you explore it in a meaningful way. So if you feel stuck then that's something worth looking at right if you're doing something and you don't really want to be doing it or you go, oh, I intended only to have one but I had three then that's something to look at because there's something going on there. And that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you again. It just means that alcohol's doing what it does best create a thirst for itself. We have tolerance and so you go from one glass made you feel like this to where now you need more to feel the same way. And so that's just how alcohol works.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

Right.

SPEAKER_01 42:41

Yeah and the truth that it's an addictive substance so if you were to smoke three cigarettes or one cigarette a day and then it was two and then it was three, would you be surprised that all of a sudden now you are addicted to tobacco nobody would be surprised we know that tobacco's addictive but for some reason everyone's surprised if they become addicted to alcohol even though alcohol is just as addictive as tobacco and and so that's the thing we don't learn. We don't it's called drugs and alcohol like they're in a different category. They are not alcohol is a drug yeah alcohol used to be used to anesthesize patients in the 1800s before surgery but then they stopped using it because it was too dangerous. Yeah so this is what we're drinking every night yeah so yeah so I would just say let's explore it let's experiment and just see how you feel and see um see how it goes. Yeah and I would love to help you do that or or how help you find the right program for you to help you to help you to explore your drinking and there's books and there's there's just there's so many things now that weren't there back in 2010 and 11 when I was exploring it like it's really exploded. A whole you know movement around alcohol-free living that's super positive. And um it's and it's wonderful because it is wonderful. Living alcohol free. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

You have a great thing on on your website. It's um the skip the sip.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

Oh, yes, yeah. That's a great way to just get started. Is skip the sip. It tells you all about what gray area drinking is and like eight signs that you might be a gray area drinker, and then it it gives you a five-step process to skip the sip tonight, to to not drink tonight, and other things you can do and try to interrupt that habit and just see how you feel and see. And so, yeah, I love I created that for smart women. So I use the smart anachronym S-M-A-R-T for the five steps to help you uh learn more about your drinking habit and to to skip the sip, but also resource yourself for whatever job you were using alcohol for and try something different in its place. So, yeah.

Skip The Sip And Where To Start

SPEAKER_00 45:11

And tell everybody where they can find you, like your website, any um any links you want to share.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Sure, sure. So Susanlarkincoaching.com. Um, on there, you can find the link to skip the sip. I also have a podcast page, so you can find my podcast there. You can find it. It's called Drink Less with Susan, you were made for more, because that's what I believe is when we get to the other side of alcohol, that's where we walk into our purpose. Um, and I see it with so many clients and so many people is like, uh, once they get out from under that little black cloud, it's like, whoa, you know, they just are it's a beautiful thing. And so, yeah, you can find out about me, about my coaching, and about skip the sip, which is free. You can get started with that. You can um listen to my podcast to just I sharing tactics. In fact, um I so the three types of episodes I have are teaching, which is a solo episode, testimony, where I have women who are sharing their experience with um alcohol, their alcohol story, and then how their life changed when they stopped drinking and that idea of like you were made for more, like what they stepped into their purpose and clarity. And then I also have a tactic episode where I share different tools that I pull out of my library that I usually give my clients that you can use to help you in your journey exploring your drinking.

SPEAKER_00 46:42

Well, thank you so much today, first Susan. Um, I had a I had a wonderful time talking with you, and I learned a lot too. Oh good. And I really enjoyed learning about your faith and how that came into play when exploring um your drinking and um how you talked, how um it felt uh your drinking felt detrimental to your relationship with God. Um you know, it was really it was really nice to talk to someone who's gone through um not drinking as through it through the lens of not definite. Um and I'm again just a disclaimer, I'm not advising anyone who's seriously drinking to just blatantly stop, you know, always consult your doctor. Um, but in Susan's case, she was able to take do it as a trial initial. And um you know, she got to it before she got to that really dark, dark gray area. And so I want to thank you again for today. And is there any scripture you want to leave us with today?

SPEAKER_01 47:50

Oh, well, that's a surprise.

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 47:54

It would be that, you know, I uh I don't know, I can't think of anything else. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

That's okay. You gave us a good couple ones in the episode. There was Romans 12.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

Um yeah, that's about renewing your mind. And so that idea that we can take every thought captive. So changing our thoughts and beliefs about alcohol is scriptural, you know what I mean? And that that's how we get to true freedom is when we stop thinking it has any kind of benefit from us for us. And um, yeah, but I mean, just I would say that, you know, uh, gosh, what is it? It's in John, it's that, you know, if the sun set you free, you are free indeed. And so, you know, God wants you to be free of anything that is holding your your life back, you know what I mean? And um, He wants goodness for you, that it's not about any kind of deprivation. It's and so exploring it from that mindset of like how good could life be my or how much better can my life be without alcohol versus oh, I guess I have to give this up. It's a different perspective, and that mindset changes everything. Um, if you're feeling drawn to that by the Holy Spirit, of like, hmm, this might not be working for me. So yeah.

Scripture, Freedom, And Farewell

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Well, thank you so much, Susan. You gave us a lot today, and I appreciate your time. And all of um Susan's links are going to be in the show notes. And please go check out her podcast, uh Drink Less with Susan. It's a great there's a as she says, she has three different types of episodes. It's there's something in it for everybody. Um, there's always ways to connect with me in the show notes as well. And that's all I have for everybody today. And thank you, Susan, and thank you, everybody, for listening. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Thank you.