Good Grief with Nikki the Death Doula

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Hello, and thank you for tuning in.

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I'm Cat York, host of the Call Her Cat podcast.

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Our mission here is to create a safe space for raw, honest stories of resilience, recovery,

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and healing.

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Today, we are honored to host a conversation with a professional whose work is dedicated

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to bringing dignity, peace, and clarity to life's most profound transition.

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Nikki Smith is an INELDA-certified death doula, which stands for International End-of-Life

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Doula Association, and a grief coach.

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She serves the terminally ill, the dying, the elderly, and their loved ones with dignity

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and respect.

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Her goal is to help others embrace the end of life and share open and honest communication

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with their loved ones.

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She can take the burden and hold space so you can focus on what matters most in your

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final days and leave this world at peace.

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Nikki also hosts her own podcast, Good Grief with Nikki the Death Doula, and you can find

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all her resources at Nikki, N-I-K-K-I, thedeathdoula.com.

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Nikki, thank you for being here and taking on this conversation and all the challenging

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conversations you take on.

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Thank you so much for having me.

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I'm happy to be here.

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So can we start with what is a death doula and how does it differ from like a hospice

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nurse or an end-of-life professional?

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Absolutely.

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I love answering this question.

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So death doulas, usually I compare us to birth doulas because most people do.

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They hear the word doula and they're like, well, okay, I've heard of a birth doula before.

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So much like birth doulas provide that non-medical holistic kind of coaching support before,

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during, and after a birth, we do this for end of life.

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It's not just centered around the death itself though.

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We do all sorts of emotional support, spiritual support, and even some practical support for

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somebody with a terminal diagnosis or somebody who is starting hospice and somebody who is

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actively dying and, or sometimes just the family members after a death has occurred

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to help them navigate the emotional waters.

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And again, we do a little bit of the practical support too.

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We're not social workers, we're not chaplains, we're not nurses, but we fill in all those

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little spaces where they might not be able to provide help and support.

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Most hospices, they're going to be in and out maybe a couple of times a week for an

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hour or two, and that's it.

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We can provide a much lengthier time of support for both the dying and their loved ones around them.

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And does the care for their loved ones extend past their loved ones passing?

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Absolutely.

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Yep.

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That's why I started grief coaching as well, because I saw such a need for that to help

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continue to support the family with their grief, because grief goes through a lot of

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phases and early grief can be really scary and complicated.

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And it's going to be totally different if the death was expected or not too.

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If it was a sudden and unexpected death, that grief is going to look very different than

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somebody who's been sitting with a loved one for several months as they were dying.

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Now what, what inspires you to go down this path?

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Oh, so many things.

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I first noticed a lot of gaps in, I don't want to say gaps.

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We don't talk about death and dying and grief as a culture.

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I've always been very open about these subjects my entire life.

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I had a job in a nursing home when I was a teenager, like 16, 18 years old.

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I was working with people who were at end of life.

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I sat bedside with somebody who was dying when I was 17 and it never, never bothered

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me.

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It never seemed weird to me.

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My friends were horrified, but I thought it was a beautiful space.

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But I also just navigating in the world and experiencing my own losses have found that

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we, we don't have these conversations.

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So when we're faced with, with dying, with death, with, you know, grief and all of this,

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we don't know what to do.

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We don't know how to act.

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And we assume everything we think and feel is wrong.

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And we're crazy because it's not what we see in the movies.

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I lost my brother in 2015 unexpectedly.

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And I really thought I was going crazy for a while because of all the, all the different

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emotions I felt and the things I was thinking about his death in specific and my family's

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dynamic after he was gone.

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So all of that just kind of led me into this position that I should have been in since

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the beginning.

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One thing that I like about you and your show is that you incorporate a little bit of humor

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to it.

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Yeah.

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And some people, including myself, when I was first hit with, when I lost my dad is

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like, I find things funny and I'm like, I shouldn't be laughing.

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This shouldn't be funny.

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Now, why do you think humor is such an important part of grieving?

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It makes it more human.

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It makes it more real.

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If we put grief on the, and again, this goes back to what we see in movies and TV and popular

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culture, we have grief in this like very specific box and it's up on this pedestal of like,

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this is this big, huge thing that is supposed to just make us feel awful for a long period

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of time.

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We're supposed to cry all the time and we have that in our brains, but that's not really

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how we're feeling.

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If something strikes you funny, that's okay.

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That's perfectly normal.

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Obviously read the room.

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Let's see, I do have a background in comedy, thank God, and performance.

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So I can know how to read a room, but I know when humor might not be welcomed.

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I've had somebody make jokes about the gurgling sound their mom was making when they were

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actively dying and it wasn't like they were making fun of her, but making fun of the situation

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and it definitely eased up that darkness when it's so heavy.

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Right.

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And so you have more of like a death positive movement versus we should be kind of be shrouded

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in sadness and despair all the time.

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Is that correct?

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Absolutely.

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It's perfectly okay to feel sad and to feel despair.

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I lost my mom somewhat recently and it was absolutely devastating to me.

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I still have days where I just don't understand how to navigate a world without my mom in

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it anymore.

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And I can make jokes, I can laugh, I can talk about funny things, but I still have moments

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where it's dark and scary.

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And I imagine you deal with some complex passings.

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And one of the things that you work with that you're big on talking about is disenfranchised

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grief.

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Yeah.

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Grief that's not like openly acknowledged like suicide or overdose.

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Can you expand on what disenfranchised grief is and maybe why we have such a hard time

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with it?

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Yeah.

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So disenfranchised grief is kind of an umbrella term for, as you said, the griefs that we

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don't recognize as a society as grief.

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And these are non-death losses too.

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These are divorces, ends of relationship, friendship breakups, loss of employment, loss

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of income, loss of identity, body changes.

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There's so much grief involved with things like puberty and menopause and other health

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conditions that might not necessarily be life-ending.

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Losing your ability to walk.

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Let's say you're in an accident and you're now a paraplegic, quadriplegic, there's grief

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involved in that.

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You're still alive.

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No death has occurred.

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But when you have something in your life and it's no longer there and you have an emotional

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response to that, that is grief.

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And we don't ever like, yeah, we talk about being sad after somebody dies, but we don't

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ever talk about the grief involved in non-death losses, especially things like divorce.

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You think, well, you guys chose not to be married anymore, so obviously you're okay

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with it.

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That's not always the case.

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But even if they was amicable, there's still going to be grief involved.

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And that is hard because I think as a society, and you've touched on this, we're expected

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to grieve for a couple of days, whatever that loss is, and then you get right back to it.

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And that's just not realistic as a human being.

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No.

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I mean, look at all these cultures.

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Some of them were black or like a year after they've lost someone.

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And you allow a space for people to feel their emotions.

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And some of those emotions I can imagine are very heavy and very, you know, angry at times.

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So when you're sitting with someone who is maybe at the end of their life, and maybe

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they're not, they have regrets, how do you, where do you even begin to approach grief

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like that?

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Because I'm sure they're grieving maybe losses of their own.

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Absolutely.

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Absolutely.

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And the biggest regret, there's a first of all, there's a fantastic book called The Five

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Regrets of the Dying.

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I recommend everybody read that because knowing that now helps you live a fuller life while

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you have it.

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But I do see a lot of regret at the end of life.

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And it's a lot of times, it's not the big things.

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It's not the I wish I would have traveled more, or I wish I would have learned another

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language.

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It's the little things.

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It's the I wish I would have appreciated the mundane.

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And it sounds weird, but it's those moments like I just wish I would have cooked dinner

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with my husband more often.

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I wish I would have not worked as much and maybe gone for a walk every once in a while.

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Just those little moments that we take for granted in our living life.

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So when I hear those type of regrets, I can't fix it.

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I can't suddenly make it happen like, yep, we're gonna go to Europe for a month when

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you've got maybe a week left to live.

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We can't do that, right?

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It's gonna depend person to person, but what can I do to help you ritualistically release

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yourself of the burden of that regret?

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I can't make it happen.

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I can't make the regret go away, but I can at least make it a little softer for you if

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we can find a way to allow ourselves to release it.

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Even if it's just talking it through and allowing yourself to recognize that while you didn't

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do XYZ, you did all these other things.

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You had all these other amazing parts of your life that were every bit as impactful and

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every bit as exciting as this thing you didn't get to do was.

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That's gotta be hard to hold space for people in such a tender time.

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It can be.

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And I imagine when you're dealing with loved ones who maybe the family dynamic is challenging,

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that can be kind of almost like a crisis management type of situation.

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How do you de-escalate those really emotionally charged situations?

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It's honestly first step in something like that is trying to separate people if there's

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arguments going on.

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And I'll see people not necessarily bickering or fighting, but just having like terse conversations

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right in the same room as the person who's dying.

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So first and foremost, I'm gonna pull them out of the room if I can.

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Hey guys, let's maybe have this conversation in the hallway or down in the kitchen or somewhere

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that's not here because even if they're not responsive, they're hearing what's going on

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and I don't want to upset them.

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So if we can just stop everything where it's at and separate it, that's a great first step

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in de-escalation because it'll bring the emotion down a little bit.

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But I will talk with each person individually, separately, see what's going on, what's making

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them so upset, like why are they sticking with this one thing versus what this other

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person feels is necessary, whatever it might be.

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And it's not my job to change anybody's mind or say you're right and you're wrong, but

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to hear them out, meet them where they're at and understand what it is that they're,

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what it is they're feeling in that moment and validating that because all of our feelings,

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all of our emotions are valid.

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It's what we do with them that matters, right?

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So if one child wants to continue treatment for their parent and the other child is okay

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with them embracing their end of life, I can't tell them one's right and one's wrong, but

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understand why does this child feel they want their parent to continue treatment?

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Why do they want them to continue on?

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And why does the other one okay?

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And just try to understand where they're at and see if we can all come together for some

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type of compromise.

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Because you want that, it's already going to be a challenging enough time when the person

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finally transitions.

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I imagine trying to hold space for different personalities, backgrounds can be very emotionally,

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I'm sure taxing at times for you.

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Yeah, it can be.

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What do you, I'm sorry, no, what do you do to like help you through those times?

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Yeah, if I've had a rather emotionally charged day or hour or time with a family, I take

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my own time to decompress afterwards.

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A lot of times it's just a matter of sitting in my car, I'll, you know, drive down the

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block or whatever and just kind of spend some time in my car doing some deep breathing and

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releasing myself of that because those are not my emotions to take home with me.

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I know that says, sounds easier said than done, but like anything, it's a muscle, it

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takes practice.

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But when you can find yourself able to separate yourself from the emotions of this family,

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and then come back into me being Nikki, just Nikki Smith, the wife and friend and whatever,

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it takes practice.

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And once you once you kind of get a hang of it, that stuff still there, it's still here

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with me, I still know it's present, but I'm able to release it for a while.

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So I can be me.

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Yeah, because that's a heavy balance that you, because grief is obviously a big part

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of your life between the podcast and your job, and dealing with, you know, grieving

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humans and humans that are getting close to the end of their life on a day to day basis.

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So it's important to have that balance of how do you take care of you?

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Right, and there's sometimes boundaries need to be put down.

230
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I've had clients I've worked with in the past that, you know, part of my contract is they

231
00:14:40,679 --> 00:14:45,039
can call or text me if they need in between visits, within reason.

232
00:14:45,039 --> 00:14:48,119
I have had people that have taken advantage of that, and they're calling and texting me

233
00:14:48,119 --> 00:14:50,239
nonstop and I can't.

234
00:14:50,239 --> 00:14:55,159
So I have a separate number for work, and I will just turn that off if I need to.

235
00:14:55,159 --> 00:14:58,799
I know that I need to put that boundary down or I need to explain to them, you've, you

236
00:14:58,799 --> 00:15:02,080
know, you've texted me seven times today, and we're kind of at a limit.

237
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:07,799
So just collect your thoughts, maybe keep a list of questions or things you want to

238
00:15:07,799 --> 00:15:10,640
talk with me about, and we'll discuss it next time I come visit.

239
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:11,640
Right.

240
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:13,440
Well, that's important to do that.

241
00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:21,159
I just want to circle back a little bit to, we touched on it briefly, of the disenfranchised

242
00:15:21,159 --> 00:15:23,159
grief.

243
00:15:23,159 --> 00:15:31,119
And when you're dealing with a family who's lost someone suddenly, there was no long term

244
00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:34,159
illness, whatever the case may be.

245
00:15:34,159 --> 00:15:42,799
Is there a difference when they lose someone suddenly, say between like addiction versus

246
00:15:42,799 --> 00:15:48,159
if they lose someone, say to like a terminal illness, like, is there a difference in how

247
00:15:48,159 --> 00:15:49,960
you approach that?

248
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:50,960
Absolutely.

249
00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,159
I mean, I approach everybody with as much compassion as I can.

250
00:15:55,159 --> 00:15:56,440
And I let people guide me.

251
00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,000
I don't, I don't guide people.

252
00:15:58,000 --> 00:15:59,000
I let them guide me.

253
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,400
I let them show me where they're at and tell me where they're at with whatever it is they're

254
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:04,400
dealing with.

255
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:09,239
But when it comes to more sudden losses, that's a very different style of grief.

256
00:16:09,239 --> 00:16:12,880
When we have, when we are watching somebody die over a period of time, we have what's

257
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,000
called anticipatory grief.

258
00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,880
This is grief of all the little things along the way and anticipating that big grief when

259
00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,080
they are no longer with us.

260
00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:26,299
And I'm not saying that makes it easier, it makes it different, but we are starting to

261
00:16:26,299 --> 00:16:30,739
work that part of our brain where we're watching that person slowly disappear from us.

262
00:16:30,739 --> 00:16:35,340
Whereas with a sudden loss, we don't have that luxury, I hate to call it a luxury, watching

263
00:16:35,340 --> 00:16:40,340
somebody die, but we don't have that luxury of time and knowledge of that person's death.

264
00:16:40,340 --> 00:16:46,179
So our brain hasn't built any pathways, any neural pathways to understanding their absence

265
00:16:46,179 --> 00:16:48,039
in life.

266
00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:53,179
Whereas with an anticipated loss, our brain's building those neural pathways that expect

267
00:16:53,219 --> 00:16:56,539
them to not be there at some point.

268
00:16:56,539 --> 00:16:58,380
So it's very upsetting.

269
00:16:58,380 --> 00:16:59,659
It's confusing.

270
00:16:59,659 --> 00:17:06,420
Our brains need to rewire a lot of synapses to register an absence of somebody or something

271
00:17:06,420 --> 00:17:09,459
that we were not anticipating.

272
00:17:09,459 --> 00:17:16,619
That's tough because when you're dealing with a sudden loss like that, I imagine the emotions

273
00:17:16,619 --> 00:17:23,540
almost feel a lot bigger, almost amplified sometimes.

274
00:17:23,540 --> 00:17:24,540
Yeah.

275
00:17:24,540 --> 00:17:28,540
Well, and it also depends on the death itself.

276
00:17:28,540 --> 00:17:33,060
Sometimes when it comes to addiction, if somebody's been struggling with addiction for a long

277
00:17:33,060 --> 00:17:38,900
period of time and they succumb to it, I don't want to say it's very similar, but it has

278
00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:41,739
a same process as sometimes an anticipated death.

279
00:17:41,739 --> 00:17:45,819
Because although we don't necessarily know that person's going to die, we all as a society

280
00:17:46,020 --> 00:17:50,739
understand that addiction can lead there sometimes, doesn't always, but it can.

281
00:17:50,739 --> 00:17:55,459
And when it happens, it's that feeling of, I'm surprised, but I'm not surprised.

282
00:17:55,459 --> 00:17:57,979
And I don't mean that to sound callous at all.

283
00:17:57,979 --> 00:18:01,939
So I apologize if that sounds callous, but we recognize there was something that led

284
00:18:01,939 --> 00:18:07,140
to this versus an accident, a murder, suicide.

285
00:18:07,140 --> 00:18:10,300
We might not know that something was leading to that.

286
00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:12,420
And that is very jarring.

287
00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:16,260
With that comes a lot of anger because we don't understand it.

288
00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:21,619
Our brain can't put parameters around, well, the addiction led to this death.

289
00:18:21,619 --> 00:18:24,300
We can say that, even that's not necessarily true.

290
00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:25,739
It's usually not the addiction.

291
00:18:25,739 --> 00:18:30,780
There's underlying things that led to the addiction.

292
00:18:30,780 --> 00:18:36,260
But with things like an accident, we can't put, we can't say, well, they did this on,

293
00:18:36,260 --> 00:18:37,260
I don't know.

294
00:18:37,260 --> 00:18:38,260
We can't put parameters on it.

295
00:18:38,260 --> 00:18:40,099
Our brain just can't quite comprehend it.

296
00:18:40,099 --> 00:18:44,140
So there's anger because we can't make sense of it.

297
00:18:44,140 --> 00:18:48,300
Would you say, would it be fair to say that when you're dealing with a family who's lost

298
00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:56,540
someone from addiction or long-term substance abuse, that it's almost like a double death?

299
00:18:56,540 --> 00:19:01,140
Like they've lost that person to addiction and they lose them physically?

300
00:19:01,140 --> 00:19:02,140
Absolutely.

301
00:19:02,140 --> 00:19:03,140
Yeah.

302
00:19:03,140 --> 00:19:05,099
There's that anticipatory grief.

303
00:19:05,099 --> 00:19:12,260
But there's also, when someone in your life is actively abusing either drugs or alcohol,

304
00:19:12,260 --> 00:19:19,420
whatever it may be, there's that loss of what you, the relationship you expected and wanted

305
00:19:19,420 --> 00:19:23,380
with them because that relationship is not there now.

306
00:19:23,380 --> 00:19:27,500
And the loss of the future that you were expecting and anticipating with them that is not there

307
00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:29,660
now because of this.

308
00:19:29,660 --> 00:19:32,420
And so there's that loss leading up to it.

309
00:19:32,420 --> 00:19:33,859
And then, yes, absolutely.

310
00:19:33,859 --> 00:19:36,500
There's a double loss then when the death occurs.

311
00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:37,500
Absolutely.

312
00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:39,500
It's a double whammy.

313
00:19:39,500 --> 00:19:45,099
What do you think, what would you like to see, I should say, society do differently

314
00:19:45,099 --> 00:19:50,060
in how they approach those who are grieving?

315
00:19:50,060 --> 00:19:53,540
Well, more compassion for one.

316
00:19:53,540 --> 00:19:59,619
And if we're, so we just, we were just talking about death with things like addiction and

317
00:19:59,619 --> 00:20:00,619
or suicide.

318
00:20:01,180 --> 00:20:04,939
Those two are so stigmatized that we're terrified to talk about it.

319
00:20:04,939 --> 00:20:11,180
I've known so many people that have lost somebody in their life to an overdose and they won't

320
00:20:11,180 --> 00:20:12,180
even tell people.

321
00:20:12,180 --> 00:20:16,260
They say they had a heart condition we didn't know about or they had an accident.

322
00:20:16,260 --> 00:20:20,380
They never will bring up the addiction, even though a lot of times people already knew

323
00:20:20,380 --> 00:20:26,339
that it was there, but they don't want to put that stigma on that person and have them

324
00:20:26,339 --> 00:20:27,540
remembered for that.

325
00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:29,260
And I appreciate that.

326
00:20:29,260 --> 00:20:33,900
And I understand that we need to separate people from their death as well.

327
00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:38,459
And that's a hard point for us, because when we see somebody we've known for 20 years and

328
00:20:38,459 --> 00:20:41,579
they're a great, beautiful person, and then we find out they died by suicide.

329
00:20:41,579 --> 00:20:43,979
Now all of a sudden, that's all we see.

330
00:20:43,979 --> 00:20:46,099
We don't remember the great person they were before that.

331
00:20:46,099 --> 00:20:48,099
We just remember the suicide.

332
00:20:48,099 --> 00:20:54,459
So understanding and respecting that we don't need to mark that person with their manner

333
00:20:54,459 --> 00:20:55,459
of death.

334
00:20:55,459 --> 00:20:59,099
We can remember them for who they were.

335
00:20:59,939 --> 00:21:08,140
And that's hard, because you would think in the times that we're at in 2026, with all

336
00:21:08,140 --> 00:21:13,420
the awareness that's out there of mental health, of addiction, that there would be more of

337
00:21:13,420 --> 00:21:19,699
an open conversation about not only how, like you said, the person, the way they died, but

338
00:21:19,699 --> 00:21:24,579
just about addiction in general, like where, how can we do more, not how you'd be there

339
00:21:24,579 --> 00:21:28,339
for the family, because they must be devastated by this.

340
00:21:29,099 --> 00:21:34,739
And the most beautiful gift you can give to somebody is just the willingness to listen.

341
00:21:34,739 --> 00:21:40,260
Because if you've lost somebody to one of these stigmatized deaths, we're scared to

342
00:21:40,260 --> 00:21:41,819
talk about it.

343
00:21:41,819 --> 00:21:47,380
I've lost somebody very close to me to alcoholism, and nobody in the family wants to say that.

344
00:21:47,380 --> 00:21:49,680
They all know, but nobody wants to say it out loud.

345
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,859
So nobody's processed their grief on that style of death.

346
00:21:53,859 --> 00:21:54,859
And I'm open.

347
00:21:54,859 --> 00:21:55,859
I'm like, I'm an open book.

348
00:21:55,859 --> 00:22:00,579
I can happily talk about my anger, and my frustration, and all of that with the addiction

349
00:22:00,579 --> 00:22:02,660
leading up to their death.

350
00:22:02,660 --> 00:22:08,739
And just being somebody to listen non-judgmentally to say, go ahead and tell me how mad you are,

351
00:22:08,739 --> 00:22:14,380
how stupid you feel this is, or how you feel regret that you couldn't fix them, which

352
00:22:14,380 --> 00:22:18,180
spoiler you can't, we can't, we can't fix each other all the time.

353
00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:22,099
But have a safe place to let people vent that out.

354
00:22:22,099 --> 00:22:23,099
Yeah.

355
00:22:23,099 --> 00:22:33,500
Where do you, dealing with families who are grieving, and like you said, when people approach

356
00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:42,260
somebody who's dealing with someone from loss of suicide, or addiction, what are some things

357
00:22:42,260 --> 00:22:50,260
that people say that may not be the most supportive in that moment?

358
00:22:50,260 --> 00:22:54,500
The ones I loathe the most are they're in a better place now.

359
00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:57,180
Don't say that to people.

360
00:22:57,180 --> 00:23:02,199
Or everything happens for a reason, especially if it comes to one of these stigmatized deaths.

361
00:23:02,199 --> 00:23:05,420
If you say everything happens for a reason, what reason was there for somebody to take

362
00:23:05,420 --> 00:23:08,939
their own life or to overdose?

363
00:23:08,939 --> 00:23:14,380
Sometimes things don't happen for a reason, but they're in a better place.

364
00:23:14,380 --> 00:23:17,780
That comes from such a place of heart, because that usually comes from people who believe

365
00:23:17,780 --> 00:23:21,339
in this beautiful afterlife, and that's where they are, and there's no suffering and they're

366
00:23:21,339 --> 00:23:23,380
happy and everything is beautiful.

367
00:23:23,380 --> 00:23:25,020
And that sounds lovely.

368
00:23:25,020 --> 00:23:31,739
But again, I lost my brother and my mother very unexpected and sudden, both of them.

369
00:23:31,739 --> 00:23:35,300
And I'm sorry, I would rather them be here with me than in some beautiful place, right?

370
00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:37,859
That's my gut reaction when somebody says at least they're in a better place.

371
00:23:37,859 --> 00:23:42,540
I'm like, well, maybe my brother wanted to watch his kids grow up, maybe they needed

372
00:23:42,540 --> 00:23:44,660
their dad, and they didn't get that.

373
00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:49,699
So just be careful with things like that.

374
00:23:49,699 --> 00:23:54,979
One thing that always, I used to get upset was like when my brother passed or like, oh,

375
00:23:54,979 --> 00:23:55,979
I'm sorry.

376
00:23:55,979 --> 00:24:00,739
You know, it used to be like our thoughts and prayers and like, but you touched on it.

377
00:24:00,739 --> 00:24:04,260
What people want most is someone to sit with them.

378
00:24:04,260 --> 00:24:05,260
Yeah.

379
00:24:05,260 --> 00:24:09,780
At least what I wanted most, I should say, I didn't want someone to be like, you know,

380
00:24:09,780 --> 00:24:10,780
always in a better place.

381
00:24:11,780 --> 00:24:20,339
You're not, you know, and I'm glad you touched on that because sometimes I feel it.

382
00:24:20,339 --> 00:24:26,739
I'm curious what you think it's sometimes better to say nothing and just offer like,

383
00:24:26,739 --> 00:24:28,180
what can I do for you?

384
00:24:28,180 --> 00:24:29,180
Right.

385
00:24:29,180 --> 00:24:31,819
Well, and that's, that's kind of a touchy one, too.

386
00:24:31,819 --> 00:24:35,500
Because when you say, if you need anything, let me know that puts it on them to a know

387
00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:37,099
what they need to be asked for.

388
00:24:37,099 --> 00:24:39,219
And we all suck at asking for help.

389
00:24:39,219 --> 00:24:43,060
So you're kind of putting the pressure on the person who's grieving to be able to speak

390
00:24:43,060 --> 00:24:46,140
up and know what they need because they may not know.

391
00:24:46,140 --> 00:24:49,979
I always, if you, if you, if you really do want to help that person, instead of saying,

392
00:24:49,979 --> 00:24:52,699
let me know if you need anything, offer specific help.

393
00:24:52,699 --> 00:24:55,780
Say if they have children, say, hey, can I take your kids out for ice cream so you can

394
00:24:55,780 --> 00:24:57,680
have a couple hours to yourself?

395
00:24:57,680 --> 00:24:58,900
Or can I mow your lawn for you?

396
00:24:58,900 --> 00:24:59,900
Can I bring over?

397
00:24:59,900 --> 00:25:03,699
And if you're going to bring over food, ask first, because sometimes people get inundated

398
00:25:03,699 --> 00:25:04,699
with food.

399
00:25:04,699 --> 00:25:06,500
There might be food sensitivities or allergies.

400
00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:09,420
So hey, I, I'm going to make a big batch of chili.

401
00:25:09,420 --> 00:25:12,939
Can I bring a couple bowls over for your family?

402
00:25:12,939 --> 00:25:14,699
Ask first.

403
00:25:14,699 --> 00:25:18,979
But yeah, I would, I would definitely avoid the, can I help?

404
00:25:18,979 --> 00:25:21,939
Can I let me know if you need anything?

405
00:25:21,939 --> 00:25:23,339
That's a good point.

406
00:25:23,339 --> 00:25:27,459
It comes from a beautiful, and you want to help, but to go back to your original question.

407
00:25:27,459 --> 00:25:31,459
Sometimes I don't want to say, don't say anything, but I too, I got so burned out on hearing,

408
00:25:31,459 --> 00:25:32,459
I'm so sorry for your loss.

409
00:25:32,459 --> 00:25:33,900
I'm so sorry for your loss.

410
00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:34,900
Thoughts and prayers.

411
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:35,900
I'm so sorry for your loss.

412
00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:36,900
And I'm like, shut up.

413
00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:41,699
And I know, and I didn't want to say that they, every, of course people felt terrible

414
00:25:41,699 --> 00:25:42,699
for me.

415
00:25:42,699 --> 00:25:47,140
Then that, that, that meant they cared about me and that's, I needed to recognize that

416
00:25:47,140 --> 00:25:48,140
they didn't know what to say.

417
00:25:48,140 --> 00:25:50,660
Let's just say, we don't know what to say.

418
00:25:50,660 --> 00:25:51,819
So it's hard.

419
00:25:51,819 --> 00:25:54,579
There's no one magic word you can say to anybody, right?

420
00:25:54,579 --> 00:25:57,540
If you know the person well enough, you know what you can say and what you can't say to

421
00:25:57,540 --> 00:25:58,540
them.

422
00:25:58,540 --> 00:26:03,060
But if you can't think of anything, just say, I can't imagine what you're going through.

423
00:26:03,060 --> 00:26:04,060
I love you so much.

424
00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:06,260
No, you're, no, I'm thinking about you.

425
00:26:06,260 --> 00:26:11,219
Like just something, just not, I'm sorry, or thoughts and prayers.

426
00:26:11,219 --> 00:26:12,540
They start to feel it.

427
00:26:12,540 --> 00:26:16,699
They start to feel like platitudes after, after a fashion.

428
00:26:16,699 --> 00:26:17,699
They really do.

429
00:26:17,699 --> 00:26:23,300
And I tell you, having had a couple of significant losses in my life, the best, the best text

430
00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:25,099
message, cause I got a lot of text messages.

431
00:26:25,099 --> 00:26:28,859
The best ones I got were like weeks after it happened that said, you don't need to reply

432
00:26:28,859 --> 00:26:29,859
to this.

433
00:26:29,859 --> 00:26:33,099
I just want you to know I'm thinking about you and I love you.

434
00:26:33,140 --> 00:26:37,020
And that meant more to me than your, my thoughts and prayers.

435
00:26:37,020 --> 00:26:39,300
Sometimes you don't have the words, right?

436
00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:43,099
You just want to know if somebody is still thinking about you right after the funeral,

437
00:26:43,099 --> 00:26:44,099
after the memorial.

438
00:26:44,099 --> 00:26:45,099
Yeah, absolutely.

439
00:26:45,099 --> 00:26:51,020
Yeah, I still get people that check in on me now and then they're like, I'm just thinking

440
00:26:51,020 --> 00:26:52,020
about you.

441
00:26:52,020 --> 00:26:53,020
You don't have to say anything.

442
00:26:53,020 --> 00:26:54,020
Love you.

443
00:26:54,020 --> 00:26:55,020
And that's, that's great.

444
00:26:55,020 --> 00:26:56,020
And that's so important.

445
00:26:56,020 --> 00:27:00,819
Cause sometimes like a week or two after people just move on, it may not check back in.

446
00:27:00,819 --> 00:27:01,819
Yeah.

447
00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:06,699
And like you said, we are not going to actively reach out, right.

448
00:27:06,699 --> 00:27:13,420
You know, and you have, um, you have like a good grief community.

449
00:27:13,420 --> 00:27:14,420
Yes.

450
00:27:14,420 --> 00:27:18,420
Like, do you want to talk a little bit about your, your community and group?

451
00:27:18,420 --> 00:27:19,420
Absolutely.

452
00:27:19,420 --> 00:27:20,420
Yeah.

453
00:27:20,420 --> 00:27:21,420
Thank you.

454
00:27:21,420 --> 00:27:25,699
Uh, I started this selfishly a little bit for me because I'm still absolutely going

455
00:27:25,699 --> 00:27:31,300
through grief with losing my mom not too long ago, but I, I got tired of the usual support

456
00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:36,339
groups and I checked out all the groups on Facebook and they're just a lot of, I didn't

457
00:27:36,339 --> 00:27:37,339
like them.

458
00:27:37,339 --> 00:27:38,339
I didn't like the vibe there.

459
00:27:38,339 --> 00:27:40,219
So I'm like, I'm going to make my own community.

460
00:27:40,219 --> 00:27:42,219
So I created a beautiful place.

461
00:27:42,219 --> 00:27:47,140
We've got a 24 seven slack channel where people can talk to each other if they need and vent

462
00:27:47,140 --> 00:27:48,140
out their feelings.

463
00:27:48,140 --> 00:27:49,420
And there's no judgment.

464
00:27:49,420 --> 00:27:50,780
You can say the bad words.

465
00:27:50,780 --> 00:27:54,300
You can say the icky, you can say the, the weird things that you're afraid to tell your

466
00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:55,300
neighbor.

467
00:27:55,300 --> 00:27:57,219
Like I'm a little glad they're gone some days, right?

468
00:27:57,219 --> 00:28:00,219
We have those thoughts, those thoughts happen.

469
00:28:00,219 --> 00:28:01,219
They're okay.

470
00:28:01,219 --> 00:28:02,219
And they're valid.

471
00:28:02,219 --> 00:28:03,579
It doesn't mean you didn't love them.

472
00:28:03,579 --> 00:28:06,300
So I, then we host a monthly grief.

473
00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:07,300
I call it a grief circle.

474
00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:10,500
So it's kind of like a support group, but it's not an icky support group.

475
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:15,459
It's just a place where we can all be open and honest with each other about our grief.

476
00:28:15,459 --> 00:28:19,699
And then every other month I'll have a speaker come on and or a workshop for my, for my people

477
00:28:19,699 --> 00:28:20,699
as well.

478
00:28:20,699 --> 00:28:21,699
And we do journaling activities.

479
00:28:21,699 --> 00:28:24,140
There's all sorts of great stuff going on there.

480
00:28:24,140 --> 00:28:29,660
Now is there a time limit, say like some, like you have to join from when the person

481
00:28:29,660 --> 00:28:33,099
like within the first year of the person's passing.

482
00:28:33,099 --> 00:28:34,099
You can join.

483
00:28:34,099 --> 00:28:37,979
I have somebody in the group who lost their spouse five years ago and they're still working

484
00:28:37,979 --> 00:28:38,979
through that.

485
00:28:38,979 --> 00:28:44,420
So can we touch, can we touch on that a little bit about grief that maybe resurfaces maybe

486
00:28:44,420 --> 00:28:47,380
five years later, 10 years later?

487
00:28:47,380 --> 00:28:48,579
Absolutely.

488
00:28:48,579 --> 00:28:53,180
And I use myself as an example with this all the time because I talk about my brother's

489
00:28:53,180 --> 00:28:54,599
passing quite a bit.

490
00:28:54,599 --> 00:29:01,800
He died in 2015 and I don't think the grief hit me until four years later because I was

491
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,680
his sister and we didn't have the greatest relationship.

492
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:10,459
We were on speaking terms, but our relationship was strained to say the least.

493
00:29:10,459 --> 00:29:13,400
When he died, my parents just lost a child.

494
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:18,000
He was an adult child, he was 40, but they still, they lost a child and he had two very

495
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,959
young children and they both lost their dad.

496
00:29:20,959 --> 00:29:25,880
And I went into protect mode and I had to do everything I could to save my parents from

497
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:30,640
one more second of pain and do all of the things for my parents.

498
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:36,439
And I had these two beautiful children, like they saw their mom and they're doing quite

499
00:29:36,439 --> 00:29:37,439
well right now.

500
00:29:37,439 --> 00:29:44,079
But I had to like be there to be the aunt, whatever I needed to do to protect them from

501
00:29:44,079 --> 00:29:45,160
any more pain.

502
00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,680
I never once thought I lost a brother in all of this.

503
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,959
Like grief, it's like a beach ball in the water.

504
00:29:51,959 --> 00:29:56,520
You can keep pushing it down, eventually it's going to come up and smack you in the face.

505
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,079
And it smacked me in the face and I had a real hard time with that.

506
00:30:01,079 --> 00:30:04,359
It was like starting all over again with his death.

507
00:30:04,359 --> 00:30:09,000
And it took me a while to work through my own process and process my own grief with

508
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:10,000
him.

509
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:11,160
So that happens.

510
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,160
Sometimes we don't deal with stuff right away because either it's too shocking, it's too

511
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:20,040
traumatic, or we feel like our grief isn't valid because we're not the spouse, we're

512
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,560
not a child, or it's not a direct relative.

513
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,839
So we ignore it and then it'll come back.

514
00:30:27,839 --> 00:30:34,599
And then sometimes I know when I lost my brother, I shoved it down as much as I could, and then

515
00:30:34,599 --> 00:30:37,959
anger was coming out like sideways.

516
00:30:37,959 --> 00:30:43,119
And I'm like, okay, I know where this is coming from.

517
00:30:43,119 --> 00:30:45,520
And that's heavy because you're like, oh, it's five years later.

518
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:50,760
And one thing that always drove me crazy is that I felt I should get through the grief,

519
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:52,479
like there was an ending to it.

520
00:30:52,479 --> 00:30:55,599
Yeah, that's a big misconception.

521
00:30:55,599 --> 00:31:00,000
What do you feel like when you hear that, like you should get through it?

522
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:06,359
There is a through it, but there's no over it, if that makes sense.

523
00:31:06,359 --> 00:31:08,560
There's no right words or right terminology here.

524
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,040
But I hear so many people ask me like, shouldn't I be over this by now?

525
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:17,680
And that's a poor choice of words, because we never really, quote, get over our grief.

526
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:18,959
It's going to be there forever.

527
00:31:18,959 --> 00:31:22,040
And that's always so daunting and scary to hear in the beginning.

528
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:23,040
That's not a bad thing.

529
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,839
That doesn't mean you're going to be hurting and sad forever.

530
00:31:26,839 --> 00:31:29,599
You're going to have a lot of bigger emotions in the beginning, and they'll get softer as

531
00:31:29,599 --> 00:31:30,599
time goes on.

532
00:31:30,599 --> 00:31:31,599
But they're still there.

533
00:31:31,599 --> 00:31:33,400
I still miss my brother.

534
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:38,959
I still grieve the fact that he's not there to see, both of his children both had their

535
00:31:38,959 --> 00:31:40,560
first children this year.

536
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:43,920
I grieve that he didn't get to enjoy being a grandfather.

537
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:44,920
So I agree.

538
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,040
Of course, I'm going to continue to grieve that death forever.

539
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,719
And my mom, I'm never going to get over that one, because it's my mom.

540
00:31:51,719 --> 00:31:52,719
You know, it depends.

541
00:31:52,719 --> 00:31:54,079
And it depends on the relationship.

542
00:31:54,079 --> 00:32:00,199
Obviously, some are going to be more impactful than others, but there's no getting over it.

543
00:32:00,199 --> 00:32:04,359
There's just learning to, I don't want to say live with it, because that means tolerate

544
00:32:04,359 --> 00:32:08,520
it, but to embrace it and understand it and let it shape you.

545
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:13,479
The losses I've suffered have made me the compassionate person I am today.

546
00:32:13,479 --> 00:32:18,319
I don't know that I could do the work I do having, if I hadn't have gone through some

547
00:32:18,319 --> 00:32:21,920
of my own losses.

548
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,560
When you're working with someone, say for, I don't know, six months or a year, and they

549
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,640
come to you and they say, Nikki, thank you for everything that you've done.

550
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,959
You've helped me and my family through this really challenging time.

551
00:32:34,959 --> 00:32:40,880
What does that mean to you, when you hear words that you impacted somebody so positively

552
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,880
in such a tough time?

553
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:47,839
Well, I struggle to take a compliment.

554
00:32:47,839 --> 00:32:52,800
I'm one of those people, if you tell me my hair looks nice, I'm like, oh, really?

555
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:53,800
Okay, I guess.

556
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:54,800
I don't know.

557
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,180
So, I mean, I'm a human being, everybody, I'm being honest here.

558
00:32:59,180 --> 00:33:03,040
When I hear that, I'm not doubting that I did have an impact, but it's always a little

559
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,599
like, oh, I had no idea.

560
00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:10,560
Sometimes I don't realize the impact I'm making, because they might not tell me through the

561
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,280
process, like, thank you for this, thank you for that.

562
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:18,319
I might not hear it until the end, like, everything you did was amazing, and when you did XYZ,

563
00:33:18,319 --> 00:33:21,199
it really helped us with this.

564
00:33:21,199 --> 00:33:26,439
It's beautiful to hear, obviously, it makes me feel good inside, but it helps push me

565
00:33:26,439 --> 00:33:29,839
forward to help the next people, because when I know I actually am doing something that

566
00:33:29,839 --> 00:33:34,400
is helping and making a difference, then I can bring that to my next client and the

567
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,319
next one after that.

568
00:33:37,319 --> 00:33:39,319
You have a Patreon channel.

569
00:33:39,319 --> 00:33:41,000
I do.

570
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:48,199
And I love it because you have like an affirmation every week, and I look forward to your Friday

571
00:33:48,199 --> 00:33:55,040
funnies, and if anyone wants to go check out her Patreon, it's very much worth it.

572
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,119
There's a lot there.

573
00:33:57,119 --> 00:34:06,880
And something that you do that I love is that you have like a fund to help people like pro

574
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:07,880
bono.

575
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,360
Is it okay to ask about your pro bono work a little bit?

576
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:11,360
Yeah, absolutely.

577
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,360
Yeah.

578
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,760
All the money I receive from Patreon, I put like a little line item so that I can help

579
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:19,760
provide pro bono work where I can.

580
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:26,439
I'm working with two different people currently, and limited time, obviously, but I have someone

581
00:34:26,439 --> 00:34:30,239
I've been working with for probably two years now, probably continue to work for a while.

582
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:31,239
She's alone.

583
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,199
She has no family.

584
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:36,959
She has some family, but they're very far away, and they don't really have a great relationship.

585
00:34:36,959 --> 00:34:38,820
She has nobody here in town.

586
00:34:38,820 --> 00:34:42,919
So I'm kind of like her emergency contact, and I check in on her, and I make sure she's

587
00:34:42,919 --> 00:34:47,719
and we talk through what she's feeling that week on, you know, her end of life.

588
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,399
She's in her 80s now, so she knows it's going to come eventually, and she has a lot of fear

589
00:34:52,399 --> 00:34:53,399
and anxiety.

590
00:34:53,399 --> 00:34:54,600
So we talk through that.

591
00:34:54,600 --> 00:35:00,280
I have another person who is, I don't want to go into specifics, has a terminal condition,

592
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,060
who's only 23 years old and has been estranged from their family.

593
00:35:04,060 --> 00:35:08,760
So again, they really don't have anybody, and 23 years old, they don't have a lot of

594
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:09,760
money either.

595
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:15,199
So I've been trying to support them in different ways throughout their process as well.

596
00:35:15,199 --> 00:35:20,520
That's a beautiful community and a beautiful purpose you have in this life.

597
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:22,120
Is it okay to call it your purpose?

598
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:23,120
Absolutely.

599
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,120
Yeah.

600
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:25,120
Okay.

601
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:31,800
Is there anything you'd like to say to somebody who's listening to this and they're grieving,

602
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:39,600
whether it's a loss through an illness or addiction or any kind of loss?

603
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,959
Is there anything you'd like to say?

604
00:35:41,959 --> 00:35:42,959
Absolutely.

605
00:35:42,959 --> 00:35:47,959
I always say what I say at the end of every episode of my podcast, your grief is yours,

606
00:35:47,959 --> 00:35:51,560
your feelings are valid, and grief doesn't always have to suck.

607
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,919
So those three things are so, first and foremost, your feelings are valid.

608
00:35:55,919 --> 00:36:01,520
So many people have, especially when it comes to loss from addiction, there might be feelings

609
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,239
of relief that I don't have to worry about this person anymore because you spent so much

610
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:11,919
time possibly waiting for that phone call that this has happened, and now it has happened,

611
00:36:11,919 --> 00:36:13,959
and you're not waiting for that phone call anymore.

612
00:36:13,959 --> 00:36:16,560
And that's perfectly okay to feel that sense of relief.

613
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,879
Again, that doesn't mean you didn't love them.

614
00:36:18,879 --> 00:36:24,879
That doesn't mean you're happy this happened, but you're no longer clenched 24-7.

615
00:36:24,879 --> 00:36:28,719
That is a relief when you don't have something you're anticipating anymore.

616
00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:32,280
So whatever you're feeling, it's perfectly valid and it's okay.

617
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,520
You're allowed to grieve in your own way.

618
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:35,520
Yeah.

619
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,639
No, that's important because grief for everyone looks different.

620
00:36:38,639 --> 00:36:39,639
Absolutely.

621
00:36:39,959 --> 00:36:41,959
I've cried in the grocery store before.

622
00:36:41,959 --> 00:36:43,760
Oh, I did that.

623
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:47,320
They just started putting Mother's Day stuff out and that was fun for me.

624
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:48,320
Oh, yeah.

625
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:49,320
Oh, yeah.

626
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:50,320
That's a hard one.

627
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:53,360
I had a little breakdown at the grocery store myself last week.

628
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,080
I don't know about you, but I find when I've cried in the grocery store, I'm often met

629
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:05,479
with a lot of compassion, you know, and I'm like, I'm going to start to be that person,

630
00:37:05,479 --> 00:37:13,040
you know, like every time, you know, and I think, you know, you just got to let it

631
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:14,040
out sometimes.

632
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:15,040
Yeah.

633
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:19,080
Well, and just this morning, I don't know if you know this, I know this will be airing

634
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,040
at a different time, but the day we're recording this is Siblings Day, it's National Siblings

635
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:24,040
Day.

636
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:25,040
Oh, I didn't even know that.

637
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:26,040
No.

638
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:27,040
Yeah.

639
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:28,040
Because I was looking at my Facebook memories.

640
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:29,040
There's a bunch of stuff about my brother.

641
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,040
I'm like, oh, crap.

642
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:36,639
I'm sure I would open Instagram and see a whole bunch of like, sibling photos.

643
00:37:36,639 --> 00:37:37,639
Yeah.

644
00:37:37,639 --> 00:37:38,639
Yeah.

645
00:37:38,639 --> 00:37:40,280
So there you go.

646
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:41,760
It's gonna it's and that's just it.

647
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,300
These things are going to pop up at different points when you're not expecting it.

648
00:37:45,300 --> 00:37:49,320
I didn't remember it was Siblings Day and I got that in my face first thing this morning.

649
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,719
So it's gonna happen.

650
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:56,040
No, it's gonna happen and it's okay to get upset.

651
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,040
Absolutely.

652
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,959
You know, absolutely.

653
00:38:00,879 --> 00:38:01,879
What's next for you?

654
00:38:01,879 --> 00:38:05,000
Are you working on anything that we haven't touched on?

655
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:06,000
I think I've done enough.

656
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:07,000
I think I've done enough.

657
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:08,000
No, no, no.

658
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,520
No, I'm continuing on my podcast.

659
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:15,639
I have, you know, as of right now, I have no intention of stopping that.

660
00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:16,639
I love doing it.

661
00:38:16,639 --> 00:38:19,280
I love getting to have it because, you know, you are on my show.

662
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:22,479
I love getting to meet super cool people and have amazing conversations.

663
00:38:22,479 --> 00:38:25,719
So just look forward to my podcast continuing.

664
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:28,479
Yeah, and my Good Grief Society.

665
00:38:28,479 --> 00:38:31,199
I would love to see people there.

666
00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:33,479
I highly recommend your podcast.

667
00:38:33,479 --> 00:38:41,600
It's a very, it's a very comforting podcast, but it's very, it's very genuine as well.

668
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:42,600
Thank you.

669
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:43,959
You know, and that's what I like.

670
00:38:43,959 --> 00:38:49,360
It's not specifically about advice or, you know, just real people telling real stories.

671
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:56,679
And that's, I think with grief, like you said, which is so complex and just not talked

672
00:38:56,679 --> 00:38:57,679
about enough.

673
00:38:57,679 --> 00:38:58,679
Yeah.

674
00:38:58,679 --> 00:39:08,399
You know, I think it's a very necessary podcast you put out and the work that you do is definitely

675
00:39:08,399 --> 00:39:09,399
needed.

676
00:39:09,399 --> 00:39:10,520
Thank you.

677
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,479
So thank you for what you do.

678
00:39:13,479 --> 00:39:16,439
And thank you for joining us today.

679
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:21,919
I've been looking forward to talking with you quite a bit.

680
00:39:21,919 --> 00:39:26,199
And if you want to learn more about Nikki and the work that she does as a Death Doula

681
00:39:26,199 --> 00:39:32,840
and a grief coach, check out her podcast, which is Good Grief with Nikki the Death Doula.

682
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:39,520
You can also find all her links in the show notes and on her website at Nikki, N-I-K-K-I,

683
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:40,520
the death doula.com.

684
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:45,600
And to all of our listeners, thank you for being part of this community.

685
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,000
All of my contact information is in the show notes, including a direct link to my social

686
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,000
media platforms and email.

687
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,360
I'm also excited to share that during the month of May, I'll be having some guest co-hosts

688
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:57,360
join the show.

689
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:03,399
And until then, please remember, you don't have to carry what you came from.

690
00:40:03,399 --> 00:40:05,239
And we will see you next time.

691
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:16,600
See you next time.

692
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:17,600
Bye!

693
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:18,600
Bye.

694
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:19,600
Bye.

695
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:20,600
Bye.

696
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:20,600