Pain, Grief, and Practical Coping Skills

1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:10,080
Hello, and welcome to the Call Her Cat podcast, where we share honest stories of resilience

2
00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:11,600
and recovery.

3
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:18,639
I'm Cat York, and my mission is to hold a supportive, honest space for candid discussions

4
00:00:18,639 --> 00:00:21,799
on addiction, healing, and breaking the mold.

5
00:00:21,799 --> 00:00:27,600
Whether you are exploring sobriety, navigating challenging family cycles, or working hard

6
00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:34,599
toward finding self-love and empowerment, these conversations are for you.

7
00:00:34,599 --> 00:00:40,560
As a gentle reminder before I introduce our guest, the Call Her Cat podcast is for informational

8
00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:42,480
purposes only.

9
00:00:42,480 --> 00:00:48,020
The views expressed by the host and the guest are their own personal opinions and stories

10
00:00:48,020 --> 00:00:51,799
and do not constitute professional advice.

11
00:00:51,799 --> 00:00:58,459
Please consult with a licensed professional for any medical, legal, or psychological concerns.

12
00:00:58,459 --> 00:01:05,160
And today, we welcome Dr. Jeffrey Bone, a chronic illness coach, an author, and host

13
00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:11,040
of the podcast, To the Bone, conversations on pain, illness, and meaning.

14
00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:17,639
Dr. Bone helps people navigate the psychological and emotional realities of living with long-term

15
00:01:17,639 --> 00:01:19,959
illness and pain.

16
00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:26,559
His expertise is both professional and deeply personal, as he developed a complex chronic

17
00:01:26,559 --> 00:01:33,320
illness and experienced firsthand the frustration of medical misdiagnosis.

18
00:01:33,320 --> 00:01:39,839
His approach blends psychological insight, lived experience, and practical tools for

19
00:01:39,839 --> 00:01:43,279
coping with pain, fatigue, and uncertainty.

20
00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,639
We'll be discussing the emotional toll of misdiagnosis, not being believed, the hidden

21
00:01:49,639 --> 00:01:57,239
loneliness of chronic illness, and practical mental skills for coping with pain and uncertainty.

22
00:01:57,239 --> 00:02:02,639
With that being said, please join me in welcoming Dr. Jeffrey Bone.

23
00:02:02,639 --> 00:02:03,639
Well thank you very much.

24
00:02:03,639 --> 00:02:07,120
That was very kind of you, a very generous introduction.

25
00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,160
I'll try my best to live up to it.

26
00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:11,520
Is there anything I missed that you want to add?

27
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:13,960
Oh no, no, absolutely.

28
00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,479
I love peanut butter and my favorite color is navy.

29
00:02:17,479 --> 00:02:23,720
And so it's kind of like, if you know all of that, okay, that's about as deep as I get there.

30
00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:24,720
So.

31
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:33,320
So, would you like to tell us a little bit on how you got started as a chronic illness coach?

32
00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:34,520
Like where it all started for you?

33
00:02:34,559 --> 00:02:42,360
I had, I had been working as a psychologist and I was working oddly enough with the chronic

34
00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:44,360
pain, chronic illness community.

35
00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:50,240
And about approximately a decade ago, I was working in an office all by myself.

36
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:55,880
It was just my office and the building had been turned over in bankruptcy a few times.

37
00:02:55,880 --> 00:03:01,440
Wasn't terribly well maintained, unfortunately for me, because there was black mold in the

38
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:03,039
HVAC.

39
00:03:03,039 --> 00:03:08,919
And I did not know that this was the fact until I had developed this horrible headache

40
00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:14,679
from sinusitis and I had gone to an ENT and they prescribed pregnazone, which is a pretty

41
00:03:14,679 --> 00:03:19,559
common medication that you would give someone if they're experiencing a sinus infection.

42
00:03:19,559 --> 00:03:21,880
Well, my body exploded.

43
00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,559
My feet felt like they were vibrating sand.

44
00:03:24,559 --> 00:03:25,919
My bladder hurt.

45
00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:31,759
I had these adrenaline rushes, memory issues, fatigue, couldn't remember the name of my

46
00:03:31,759 --> 00:03:34,559
own children, different pain in my head.

47
00:03:34,559 --> 00:03:36,559
It was just terrible.

48
00:03:36,559 --> 00:03:45,240
And I then just went to tons of different doctors across the board, neurologists, psychiatrists,

49
00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,039
multiple ENTs, podiatrists.

50
00:03:48,039 --> 00:03:54,679
I went to them all internist and then my symptoms were just all over the place.

51
00:03:54,679 --> 00:03:59,279
And so I didn't fall really nice and neat into one of their decision trees.

52
00:03:59,279 --> 00:04:03,600
So they just kind of either just said, Hey, let's just focus on this one little body

53
00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:04,600
part.

54
00:04:04,600 --> 00:04:10,279
When I kept on saying it's systemic, systemic, or they would tell me, Oh, maybe it's just,

55
00:04:10,279 --> 00:04:11,279
it's just anxiety.

56
00:04:11,279 --> 00:04:15,000
You maybe you're a little stressed and that's what's going on.

57
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,079
And it didn't turn out to be stress.

58
00:04:17,079 --> 00:04:24,480
It was mold, which caused a condition called chronic inflammatory response syndrome, which

59
00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:29,880
then triggered another disorder called common variable immune deficiency.

60
00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:35,200
And right now I have to infuse immunogoblins in once a week for this condition.

61
00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:41,359
So if anyone's donating plasma, that plasma is being used to help make my medication.

62
00:04:41,359 --> 00:04:46,839
So I very much appreciate all those plasma donors out there.

63
00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:57,799
So as you're going through all these appointments and doctors and visits, can you describe what

64
00:04:57,799 --> 00:05:03,559
it's like that experience of being misdiagnosed or not being listened to, like the emotional

65
00:05:03,559 --> 00:05:06,399
toll of not being believed?

66
00:05:06,399 --> 00:05:08,799
It feels like a gut punch.

67
00:05:08,799 --> 00:05:14,119
I remember talking to one, it was a concierge and I ponied up and paid a little bit more

68
00:05:14,119 --> 00:05:17,880
money because I thought I'd get a better opinion.

69
00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:23,279
And this guy decided to look at me and tell me it's just anxiety.

70
00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:29,160
And here I am, I'm a, I had been probably working with people for about 16 years at

71
00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:30,839
that point.

72
00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,839
And I'm a clinical psychologist and you're telling me that it's anxiety.

73
00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,760
Now mind you, I've had anxiety my entire life.

74
00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:40,959
I know exactly what anxiety feels like.

75
00:05:40,959 --> 00:05:45,279
So I'm not new to anxiety and this was not it.

76
00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:53,679
My body is just wildly out of control, but since they didn't know what it was, well then

77
00:05:53,679 --> 00:05:56,760
of course, let's blame the patient here.

78
00:05:56,760 --> 00:06:01,320
And because the last thing that they want to ever do is say, I don't know, you know,

79
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,059
God forbid that.

80
00:06:03,059 --> 00:06:08,600
And so they just throw the psychological label of anxiety on it.

81
00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,920
And it feels extremely demoralizing.

82
00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:18,359
I think most people with chronic illness can relate when they're going to a new doctor.

83
00:06:18,359 --> 00:06:19,880
It feels like Christmas.

84
00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:21,760
It feels like it's a holiday.

85
00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:23,000
It feels amazing.

86
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,880
Like this person is going to get me, understand me, and they're going to get me back to the

87
00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,279
person I once was.

88
00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,839
In the beginning, we have so many hopes for that.

89
00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:39,079
And then to walk out of that office, as I had done multiple times with multiple doctors

90
00:06:39,079 --> 00:06:44,920
and just walking back to the car and just thinking, now what, you know, just the compass

91
00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,440
in my hand, so to speak, the metaphorical compass is just spinning around.

92
00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,200
I can't find my true North.

93
00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:53,839
I can't find what to aim for next.

94
00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,440
And it's so demoralizing.

95
00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:03,519
Now as you mentioned, you're a psychologist, so this is anxiety is not new to you.

96
00:07:03,519 --> 00:07:10,880
Oh, it's not new to me at all, either treating anxiety or, or even experiencing anxiety.

97
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,440
None of that is new to me.

98
00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:19,559
And and, but I just had a collection of symptoms because it was systemic is it was my immune

99
00:07:19,559 --> 00:07:22,399
system that was going haywire.

100
00:07:22,399 --> 00:07:26,119
Everyone was just looking at, let's look at this while your kidneys are fine, well, your

101
00:07:26,119 --> 00:07:27,119
heart is fine.

102
00:07:27,119 --> 00:07:32,799
And it's like, but they weren't looking at the larger systemic piece, which was the immune

103
00:07:32,799 --> 00:07:35,239
system wasn't even considered.

104
00:07:35,239 --> 00:07:41,320
Now what ended up happening is that I go to a functional medicine doctor pay lots of money,

105
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:48,239
and I get treated with binders, essentially, to kind of help bind out the micro toxins

106
00:07:48,239 --> 00:07:55,000
because the mold, what what gets put out there are different micro toxins.

107
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,399
And a lot of people can clear it.

108
00:07:57,399 --> 00:07:59,359
Not all mold is neurotoxic.

109
00:07:59,359 --> 00:08:03,239
So just because you have mold in the house doesn't mean that's neurotoxic.

110
00:08:03,239 --> 00:08:05,640
There's lots of different species of mold.

111
00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,179
But I do this for a year.

112
00:08:08,179 --> 00:08:15,480
And it's not very much fun at all different IVs and different modalities, but I'm better.

113
00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,600
But I'm just not, I'm just not having any good days.

114
00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:20,760
And I'm about to go to the Mayo Clinic.

115
00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:26,279
But before I go to the Mayo Clinic, I say, you know what, let me look at the hospital

116
00:08:26,279 --> 00:08:27,720
directory.

117
00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,920
Let me look at the different departments.

118
00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,119
And let me try to do that.

119
00:08:32,119 --> 00:08:34,239
Because if you go to Mayo Clinic, that's what they're doing.

120
00:08:34,239 --> 00:08:38,400
They just send you to all these different departments.

121
00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:43,239
So I'm looking through the list, and I see toxicology.

122
00:08:43,239 --> 00:08:47,919
And I don't exactly know what toxicology does, to be completely honest.

123
00:08:47,919 --> 00:08:51,400
But I'm just thinking, you know what, I'm feeling toxic.

124
00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:52,880
That's where I'm going.

125
00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:58,159
So I go there, and this very nice gentleman, older gentleman, he doesn't believe in any

126
00:08:58,159 --> 00:08:59,159
of the mold stuff.

127
00:08:59,159 --> 00:09:00,840
He's familiar with them.

128
00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,479
And I don't care at this point, I'm just looking to get better.

129
00:09:04,479 --> 00:09:12,080
And although he didn't believe my, you know, the mold was the issue, he did take me seriously.

130
00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:17,479
And he did this vast array of different blood work, and what showed up on the blood work,

131
00:09:17,479 --> 00:09:21,799
which the other doctors didn't do, he tested my immunoglobulins.

132
00:09:21,799 --> 00:09:24,039
And that's part of the immune system.

133
00:09:24,039 --> 00:09:29,280
It's coming out of the bone marrow, it's a specialized B cell that kind of carries these

134
00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:36,039
different immune parts of the immunoglobulins, part of the immune system.

135
00:09:36,039 --> 00:09:37,479
And mine were low.

136
00:09:37,479 --> 00:09:40,760
And so then he sends me to an immunologist.

137
00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:47,679
That immunologist gets the paperwork and says, you know what, we have to give you this vaccine.

138
00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,799
And then we're going to test to see if you made antibodies to it.

139
00:09:50,799 --> 00:09:57,239
So a month later, I come back, I do the blood work, and she says, you didn't make any antibodies.

140
00:09:57,239 --> 00:10:01,840
So basically, if you gave me this vaccine, I don't make antibodies, my immune system

141
00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,919
is narcoleptic, it doesn't get out of bed, doesn't react.

142
00:10:05,919 --> 00:10:11,799
And so what happens, I get diagnosed with common variable immune deficiency, and then

143
00:10:11,799 --> 00:10:19,400
I'm put on immunoglobulins, which entails basically me putting two needles into my sides

144
00:10:19,479 --> 00:10:24,919
every single week, and then infusing the medication in over about approximately an hour, it's

145
00:10:24,919 --> 00:10:30,200
called subcutaneous immunoglobulins.

146
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:36,640
How long from the start of going to doctors, did it take you to get diagnosed?

147
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,719
I think it was around two and a half years.

148
00:10:40,719 --> 00:10:47,719
And were you able to work at this time?

149
00:10:47,719 --> 00:10:54,679
I could barely work, I was so fatigued, it was the fatigue, I couldn't sleep, there were

150
00:10:54,679 --> 00:11:00,520
times when I was taking some heavy duty prescription medication, and I still couldn't sleep.

151
00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,280
And so I was incredibly fatigued during this time.

152
00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,119
And it was very difficult.

153
00:11:06,119 --> 00:11:10,559
So it was very hard to work at all whatsoever.

154
00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:12,039
Were you in physical pain?

155
00:11:12,039 --> 00:11:14,640
Yes, I still have pain to this day.

156
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:21,440
I have burning sensation in my right foot and in my left forehead, nerve pain.

157
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:27,400
The nerve pain was more severe in the past, but I've done countless things to try to make

158
00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:28,400
it better.

159
00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:34,039
And it has gone down, and it's relatively mild and doesn't really impact my activities

160
00:11:34,039 --> 00:11:35,880
of daily living.

161
00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:41,559
But it's still there and has been a constant companion over the past decade.

162
00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:46,119
Now, did you have any support during this time, like family or friends?

163
00:11:46,119 --> 00:11:49,000
There was family, there was family.

164
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:54,159
But the issue was that even they didn't really know how to help me.

165
00:11:54,159 --> 00:11:59,239
They didn't really know what to say or what to do.

166
00:11:59,239 --> 00:12:02,039
They were generally supportive.

167
00:12:02,039 --> 00:12:06,840
But at the same time, it's kind of a mystery to them as well.

168
00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:13,640
And so there was some family support, and that was about it.

169
00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:19,599
Where do you think, obviously, there's gaps when it comes to chronic illness, because

170
00:12:19,599 --> 00:12:22,119
not everything can be seen on a scan.

171
00:12:22,119 --> 00:12:27,280
I mean, it took you two and a half years to get diagnosed, you're in pain, you're fatigued,

172
00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:28,280
you're barely functioning.

173
00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:29,280
With a PPO.

174
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:30,280
Yeah.

175
00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:34,679
And so I could go to all these different doctors that I could self-refer myself to, which sped

176
00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,000
up the process.

177
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:41,520
So there, I'm sorry, but I apologize, I stepped on your question.

178
00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:42,840
No, that's okay.

179
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,119
No, that's okay.

180
00:12:44,119 --> 00:12:48,559
I was just going to ask, what do you think doctors need to do to kind of narrow that

181
00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:54,159
gap a little bit, as far as like listening to the patient and like, really?

182
00:12:54,159 --> 00:12:57,159
Well, the thing is, they're going to be right.

183
00:12:57,159 --> 00:13:02,640
Most of the time, that's the unfortunate part, because the law of averages, it's going to

184
00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,039
be favorable to them.

185
00:13:05,039 --> 00:13:09,799
My condition is considered to be a zebra condition, which is a rare condition.

186
00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:14,520
And zebra condition basically means that if you hear hooves in the street, you're going

187
00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:17,200
to think horses, not zebras.

188
00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:22,880
So the doctors that I was seeing, they would always think, oh, it's a horse.

189
00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:24,440
It is anxiety.

190
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:32,619
It is just one of those more common illnesses, and it's not one of these more rare instances.

191
00:13:33,599 --> 00:13:39,900
The problem was that I didn't feel as though that they believed me in terms of when I would

192
00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:43,099
talk to them and tell them it's systemic.

193
00:13:43,099 --> 00:13:48,900
I even told one ENT, because I was familiar with this one individual, he was a kind of

194
00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:52,859
a famous individual in the biohacking community.

195
00:13:52,859 --> 00:13:54,380
His name was Dave Asbury.

196
00:13:54,380 --> 00:13:59,179
He's the one where everyone was putting butter and stuff into their coffees with bulletproof

197
00:13:59,179 --> 00:14:00,179
coffee.

198
00:14:01,059 --> 00:14:09,020
And so I was familiar with his story, and he was first made ill from chronic mold himself.

199
00:14:09,020 --> 00:14:13,340
And so I asked one of my ENTs, could this be mold?

200
00:14:13,340 --> 00:14:20,619
And I remember he said, well, even if it was, what would you even do, was his response.

201
00:14:20,619 --> 00:14:27,659
And so I think there's a general lack of awareness when it comes to the environmental illnesses,

202
00:14:27,659 --> 00:14:35,059
whether it's Lyme or a co-infection of Lyme or black mold.

203
00:14:35,059 --> 00:14:37,739
I think there's a huge gap.

204
00:14:37,739 --> 00:14:45,099
And unfortunately, it is very real that people can get sick from these situations, from these

205
00:14:45,099 --> 00:14:48,099
environmental illnesses.

206
00:14:48,099 --> 00:14:57,979
And I went to some very nice hospitals and doctors, but they just didn't have that perspective

207
00:14:57,979 --> 00:15:02,739
of, okay, could this be an environmental illness?

208
00:15:02,739 --> 00:15:08,859
And what should we go down in terms of the blood work to be able to support this individual?

209
00:15:08,859 --> 00:15:15,059
And if it is systemic, maybe we should look at immunology as a referral source.

210
00:15:15,059 --> 00:15:20,580
But instead what they would do is, so I would go to the urologist and I would have bladder

211
00:15:20,580 --> 00:15:25,340
pain, and I would get Flomax, and it's just like, here, try the Flomax.

212
00:15:25,340 --> 00:15:28,539
It was this illusion that they were doing something.

213
00:15:28,539 --> 00:15:34,260
And even he said, I was scoped, I'm going to talk about an ego death, especially for

214
00:15:34,260 --> 00:15:41,020
a guy that's not used to that, I had my bladder scoped, and I went through it all.

215
00:15:42,020 --> 00:15:47,179
They wouldn't say, I don't know, maybe I should refer you to some other people, or maybe we

216
00:15:47,179 --> 00:15:48,979
should look at this differently.

217
00:15:48,979 --> 00:15:51,940
They would just say, oh, well, I prescribed this.

218
00:15:51,940 --> 00:15:55,739
So here, you take this and then come back in a month.

219
00:15:55,739 --> 00:15:59,859
And I think you need a little bit more humility, and you have to be willing to say, I don't

220
00:15:59,859 --> 00:16:05,539
know, and refer out if you really don't know, and just instead of throwing these wild guesses

221
00:16:05,539 --> 00:16:07,659
at people.

222
00:16:07,659 --> 00:16:13,700
I hear so often, I've heard on my own journey, oh, it's just anxiety, or it's your hormones,

223
00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:15,700
or it's stress.

224
00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:21,500
And because again, it can't be seen on a scan or without some really specialized bloodwork,

225
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:26,140
like what you've had, they're not going to find it.

226
00:16:26,140 --> 00:16:30,780
And as you're going, no, you can go ahead.

227
00:16:30,780 --> 00:16:37,020
And as you're going through this process of your life changing, what was it going, what

228
00:16:37,020 --> 00:16:44,700
was going on in your head is like, how am I going to adapt to life with a chronic illness?

229
00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:47,539
Like, what was that like for you?

230
00:16:47,539 --> 00:16:53,619
You know, because I'm a psychologist, and because of all my training, it basically came

231
00:16:53,619 --> 00:16:59,820
down to me crying a whole lot, and being really scared.

232
00:16:59,820 --> 00:17:04,500
And it's kind of like scared, confused, and lots of tears.

233
00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:09,300
Because before I'm a psychologist, or what, you know, I'm a chronic illness coach now,

234
00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:14,780
before all of my training, before all that stuff, I'm a human being, and I'm just a simple

235
00:17:14,780 --> 00:17:16,900
human being.

236
00:17:16,900 --> 00:17:23,699
And so I, there's a lot of grief, and I had to grieve what it was, I was very confused,

237
00:17:23,699 --> 00:17:27,060
I didn't know what the answer was going to be, I didn't know what the future was going

238
00:17:27,060 --> 00:17:28,060
to be.

239
00:17:28,060 --> 00:17:31,859
And it was just surviving one night after the next.

240
00:17:31,859 --> 00:17:35,339
And I say that because insomnia was so terrible.

241
00:17:35,339 --> 00:17:40,199
And just then, then I had the honor to survive one day after the next.

242
00:17:40,199 --> 00:17:42,979
And I had terrible, terrible fatigue.

243
00:17:42,979 --> 00:17:48,900
And so, and really what it was, at the end of the day, that helped kind of pull me through

244
00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:56,020
it, which is holding on to curiosity, well, I wonder if this would work a supplement modality,

245
00:17:56,020 --> 00:18:02,579
I tried everything, these red light beds, hyperbaric oxygen, ozone therapy, pulse electric

246
00:18:02,579 --> 00:18:09,579
magnetic frequency, Tesla coils, all the supplements in the world, different versions of IVs, I

247
00:18:09,579 --> 00:18:12,619
was throwing everything at it.

248
00:18:12,619 --> 00:18:21,540
And it was that curiosity of like, I wonder if and which, which helped me pull through

249
00:18:21,540 --> 00:18:24,859
these difficult days.

250
00:18:24,859 --> 00:18:28,219
And how does your how does your life look now?

251
00:18:28,219 --> 00:18:30,739
Now that you're getting the proper treatment?

252
00:18:30,739 --> 00:18:36,979
Well, my health is better, I still have sinus infections, just getting over one, I have

253
00:18:36,979 --> 00:18:41,180
frequent sinus infections, sometimes it turns into vertigo.

254
00:18:41,180 --> 00:18:44,979
But they're not as frequent and the pain isn't as bad.

255
00:18:44,979 --> 00:18:47,579
The fatigue isn't as bad.

256
00:18:47,579 --> 00:18:52,219
There's low grade fatigue all of the time, which I call a kind of sandpaper fatigue,

257
00:18:52,219 --> 00:18:58,459
where it's just, it wears things down a little bit, I can function like I can, I can do things.

258
00:18:58,459 --> 00:19:00,500
It's just that I'm always a little tired.

259
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:05,339
I'm never I'm never really up as much as I would want it to be.

260
00:19:05,339 --> 00:19:11,020
But what I found was, okay, I stabilize the the medical aspect.

261
00:19:11,020 --> 00:19:13,699
But then I needed to stabilize the identity.

262
00:19:13,699 --> 00:19:18,619
And I needed to kind of find out who I was as this individual.

263
00:19:18,619 --> 00:19:24,660
And for no particular reason, other than it was something that I could do on my phone,

264
00:19:24,660 --> 00:19:26,459
I just started writing poetry.

265
00:19:26,459 --> 00:19:28,939
And I'm not going to pretend that it was good poetry.

266
00:19:28,939 --> 00:19:29,939
It was just poetry.

267
00:19:29,939 --> 00:19:34,739
And it was this cathartic moment of just releasing this information.

268
00:19:34,739 --> 00:19:42,540
Because sometimes it's very hard to share pain, pain in some ways unshareable.

269
00:19:42,540 --> 00:19:47,560
And I always like the quote from David Foster Wallace, how can I have all of this inside

270
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,760
of me, but to you, it's just words.

271
00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:53,359
And I needed the words to come out.

272
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:57,959
I needed to find different ways to have that catharsis, that emotional release.

273
00:19:57,959 --> 00:20:02,079
And so I turned to poetry, ended up writing two poetry books.

274
00:20:02,079 --> 00:20:07,400
And it was just something for me to take control over and express.

275
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,319
And I wrote them for myself.

276
00:20:09,319 --> 00:20:13,920
It wasn't a side hustle, really wasn't to monetize anything.

277
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:19,400
I just wanted to see if I could do it because I needed some control, I needed some agency,

278
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,359
and I needed to be able to express myself.

279
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:28,920
And then that led to some chronic illness journals, because I found it helpful to go,

280
00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,359
you know what, it really helped me to write.

281
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:37,560
And I want other people to have the opportunity to write, but maybe they don't know what to

282
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:38,880
write about.

283
00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,900
So I'll give them a lot of questions, and then they can tell their story.

284
00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:47,339
And that's Breath Between Battles and The Expanded Life, two different chronic illness

285
00:20:47,339 --> 00:20:48,339
journals.

286
00:20:48,339 --> 00:20:55,300
And there was just opportunities because why I like these journals is because there isn't

287
00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:56,979
a yellow brick road here.

288
00:20:56,979 --> 00:21:01,180
You're ill, you're sick, there's something wrong with you on a physical basis.

289
00:21:01,180 --> 00:21:03,020
There's not one way to think about it.

290
00:21:03,020 --> 00:21:04,979
There's not one meaning to life.

291
00:21:04,979 --> 00:21:07,979
There's not one value that you need to hold on to.

292
00:21:07,979 --> 00:21:12,520
But we all have these individual stories within us.

293
00:21:13,140 --> 00:21:17,640
And these were just permissions here to tell your individual story.

294
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:23,479
And then I, you know, I was just looking to have fun, made some three different coloring

295
00:21:23,479 --> 00:21:27,800
books just for fun, you know, just for fun.

296
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,040
And again, there's different ways to express yourself.

297
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,079
Sometimes it's through words, sometimes it's through color.

298
00:21:35,839 --> 00:21:43,119
And then after that, the podcast, just finding a different way to express myself.

299
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:48,640
And I found that to be so essential of trying to find myself in the storm of chronic illness.

300
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:54,560
Because you touched on something that's so important is, you know, kind of who are you

301
00:21:54,560 --> 00:22:00,920
after you get the diagnosis, you know, the rebuilding of your new normal, so to speak,

302
00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,079
and your identity.

303
00:22:03,079 --> 00:22:09,719
And I like that you created these journals, because people living with chronic illness,

304
00:22:09,719 --> 00:22:15,400
you know, we keep a lot inside, because as you stated, most people don't understand.

305
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:16,719
You know, they may not get it.

306
00:22:16,719 --> 00:22:22,359
They may not even believe you sometimes, whether it be doctors or spouses or friends.

307
00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:23,359
True.

308
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,640
You know, and you created these books.

309
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:29,800
And I think it's, it's beautiful that you've done that.

310
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,719
And I think created the podcast to give a voice to this community that sometimes kind

311
00:22:34,719 --> 00:22:37,839
of gets overlooked.

312
00:22:37,839 --> 00:22:42,839
It gets overlooked, because it doesn't have a clean ending.

313
00:22:42,839 --> 00:22:45,239
It doesn't, it doesn't have that.

314
00:22:45,239 --> 00:22:49,520
And I'm not, I'm not putting down cancer.

315
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:55,359
But I think everyone loves the the story of cancer, when people get to ring the bell,

316
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,400
as if they like that person, you know, did their chemo, and they rung the bell, and they're

317
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:04,000
like, there's a finish line, there was a beginning, there was a journey, and then like the bell

318
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,000
got wrong.

319
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:10,199
And I think as a society, we like things that have a completion.

320
00:23:10,199 --> 00:23:17,680
But with chronic illness, whatever it is, lupus, MS, you know, an autoimmune disorder,

321
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:23,119
a primary immune disorder, there's no bell ringing moment of like, aha, I crossed the

322
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:24,800
finish line with this.

323
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,640
It's a loop that opens that never closes.

324
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:32,959
It's a cliffhanger that always remains unresolved.

325
00:23:32,959 --> 00:23:37,400
And you're always, and a lot of people with chronic illness, they're not just like sitting

326
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:42,000
on their hands, you know, waiting for someone to tell them they're doing their own research,

327
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:46,160
they're finding their own doctors like you did reading books, looking into what they

328
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,319
should do next.

329
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:55,160
Could you dispel some maybe some misconceptions about people with chronic illness?

330
00:23:55,160 --> 00:24:03,439
That they're lazy, that it is so damn boring to be stuck at home.

331
00:24:03,439 --> 00:24:10,119
Every single person that I know with the, I mean, thousands of treated five, over 5000

332
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:16,760
people in my career, none of them want to be at home, all of it's, it doesn't matter

333
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:23,479
if they were some sort of CEO, or they were in charge of the fries, they want to work

334
00:24:23,479 --> 00:24:27,839
people like structured, people talk about the Sunday scaries.

335
00:24:27,839 --> 00:24:34,959
And the Sunday scaries is kind of like this unstructured time, kind of Saturday evening,

336
00:24:34,959 --> 00:24:37,400
as you're going to have going into the week.

337
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:42,579
Well, it is scary for some people, or it's just uncomfortable for people because it's

338
00:24:42,579 --> 00:24:44,280
unstructured time.

339
00:24:44,719 --> 00:24:49,959
Well, with chronic illness, there is so much unstructured time.

340
00:24:49,959 --> 00:24:54,319
And it's kind of Sunday scaries, it's everyday scaries.

341
00:24:54,319 --> 00:25:00,199
And people don't understand it's not a vacation.

342
00:25:00,199 --> 00:25:04,160
They don't want to be at home, they don't want to be stuck in bed.

343
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,880
They want to work because they want an identity as human beings.

344
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,880
We want purpose.

345
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:15,520
Purpose is tremendous for people.

346
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:21,000
And oftentimes we lose our purpose and have to regain a new purpose through chronic illness.

347
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:26,439
Yeah, you have to reinvent yourself again.

348
00:25:26,439 --> 00:25:32,119
The life you once knew, it's, it's always there somewhat, you can almost kind of like

349
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,000
on the outside looking in, it's your own life.

350
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,839
You know, yes, you know, 100%.

351
00:25:38,839 --> 00:25:45,359
And I like to think of it as that life was shattered, and the job now is taking up those

352
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,040
shards and making a mosaic out of it.

353
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:54,479
Because you can't, at first, we all try to do this, we all just try to pretend everything's

354
00:25:54,479 --> 00:25:58,040
the same, that nothing has changed, I'll just be the same person.

355
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:02,579
But we just burn ourselves out because our capacity is not the same.

356
00:26:02,579 --> 00:26:07,000
And that person that we once were just isn't available.

357
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,199
And so there's that moment of acceptance, and there's this grief.

358
00:26:11,199 --> 00:26:19,560
But it's just like my one of my books, the journaling, the expanded life, if you can

359
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:26,839
set down that old life, you can find other areas in which you can expand.

360
00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:29,839
And I try to be an example of that.

361
00:26:29,839 --> 00:26:35,760
Before I was ill, never wrote any poetry, never wrote any books, any journals, never

362
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:40,300
had a podcast, never did any of that whatsoever.

363
00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:43,359
I was only focused on other people's story.

364
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:53,359
But once I became ill, and things broke, essentially, my identity broke, I decided, hmm, what could

365
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:54,560
I do?

366
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:59,319
How could I express myself, then the ball just started rolling.

367
00:26:59,319 --> 00:27:00,800
And so that's where we are.

368
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:06,040
And that's how I'm, that's how I find you today, having this conversation.

369
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:13,079
And this is, oddly enough, part of my expansion, I've never been on a podcast before, I was

370
00:27:13,079 --> 00:27:14,079
ill.

371
00:27:14,079 --> 00:27:18,400
And here I am, this is the expansion.

372
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:29,859
What is it like to, to now be, what is it like as someone to be on the other end of

373
00:27:29,859 --> 00:27:30,859
needing help?

374
00:27:30,859 --> 00:27:35,140
You're a psychologist, what is it like to be on that end receiving help, like having

375
00:27:35,140 --> 00:27:37,140
to meet it?

376
00:27:37,140 --> 00:27:43,819
I always, throughout my entire life, I was terrible at asking for help, terrible for

377
00:27:43,819 --> 00:27:50,319
asking for a tutor in college, going to the writing center, or going to the professor

378
00:27:50,319 --> 00:27:54,540
for their office hours, just asking for help.

379
00:27:54,540 --> 00:27:57,979
And it was always, I'll take care of it, I'll do it.

380
00:27:58,099 --> 00:28:01,219
I was depressed my senior year in college.

381
00:28:01,219 --> 00:28:05,219
And I thought, Oh, if I'm going to become a psychologist, I need to be able to do this

382
00:28:05,219 --> 00:28:10,219
on my own, which everyone out there listening is not the way that we do it.

383
00:28:10,219 --> 00:28:12,739
We do things together.

384
00:28:12,739 --> 00:28:18,339
It's solidarity, it's community, I needed to ask for help, I needed to be honest, I

385
00:28:18,339 --> 00:28:20,020
needed to work with people.

386
00:28:20,020 --> 00:28:26,459
And the last thing, it's, it's our society, our society is so ill, can be so broken.

387
00:28:26,459 --> 00:28:33,219
And it really overemphasizes, it's the individual, it's the Marlboro man, it's the cowboy.

388
00:28:33,219 --> 00:28:34,500
That's not what we are.

389
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:38,739
We're human beings, we're tribal, we do this stuff together.

390
00:28:38,739 --> 00:28:43,180
So when in doubt, the answer is, ask for help.

391
00:28:43,180 --> 00:28:50,500
And from whom, from anybody, from anybody, everybody, ask for help.

392
00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:54,339
And so I had to learn how to ask for help.

393
00:28:54,339 --> 00:29:00,819
And asking for help is a skill, but the more that you do it, you realize, Oh, this is actually

394
00:29:00,819 --> 00:29:02,579
how we're designed.

395
00:29:02,579 --> 00:29:09,500
And this is exactly how I don't know, 99.9% of our ancestors lives, you know, together

396
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:11,579
and working on things together.

397
00:29:11,579 --> 00:29:21,540
How is there a difference in how you approach someone as a chronic illness coach versus

398
00:29:21,540 --> 00:29:27,500
someone who doesn't have chronic illness, when they come to you for help?

399
00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:34,020
When before, like before my chronic illness, you know, working with people and versus now?

400
00:29:34,020 --> 00:29:35,020
Yeah.

401
00:29:36,020 --> 00:29:41,900
And so I'm much more comfortable and I don't think I really pushed it.

402
00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:46,420
And I don't know how, I was always very humanistic.

403
00:29:46,420 --> 00:29:50,099
So I was never trying to cross that finish line.

404
00:29:50,099 --> 00:29:51,979
I was never trying to fix people.

405
00:29:51,979 --> 00:29:55,020
I was allowing people to be who they were.

406
00:29:55,020 --> 00:30:01,739
But I understand that a thousand times better now that we cannot close the loop.

407
00:30:02,020 --> 00:30:05,500
We can make people more comfortable in that open loop.

408
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:09,540
There's different modalities and different things that we can do.

409
00:30:09,540 --> 00:30:14,819
And we can recognize and call it out that we're not going to close that loop.

410
00:30:14,819 --> 00:30:19,099
And we can have a relationship to the fact that we cannot close the loop.

411
00:30:19,099 --> 00:30:25,339
We can see it more safely and that it's okay that we don't have to start.

412
00:30:25,339 --> 00:30:30,900
We don't have to close the loop to be able to start living is essentially the point.

413
00:30:31,859 --> 00:30:38,180
And I can be a little bit more direct with people because there's certain things that I see now

414
00:30:38,180 --> 00:30:43,020
from being chronically ill that you just don't see unless you're chronically ill.

415
00:30:43,020 --> 00:30:46,819
You can go to the lectures, you can read the books, you can do all those things.

416
00:30:46,819 --> 00:30:52,020
But there's lots of little nuanced parts of just living with a chronic illness that I can speak to.

417
00:30:52,020 --> 00:30:53,540
I see more.

418
00:30:53,540 --> 00:30:56,900
I saw half of it when I was just educated.

419
00:30:56,900 --> 00:31:01,500
And now I see all of it with the education plus the illness itself.

420
00:31:03,219 --> 00:31:10,979
Are there any practical, what do I want to word this, any practical mental skills

421
00:31:10,979 --> 00:31:20,140
that someone who's suffering with chronic illness can start to help them navigate their new normal?

422
00:31:20,180 --> 00:31:28,500
So one of the tools that I used for myself, obviously, with all my little creations was expression.

423
00:31:28,500 --> 00:31:32,859
But you don't need to publish anything, you don't need to do anything fancy,

424
00:31:32,859 --> 00:31:35,979
and you don't have to even be able to write all that well.

425
00:31:35,979 --> 00:31:41,780
And so one of the very first things I would tell anybody is to do expressive writing,

426
00:31:41,780 --> 00:31:47,180
where you get a piece of paper and you write one long continuous run-on sentence,

427
00:31:47,180 --> 00:31:48,859
five minutes, 10 minutes.

428
00:31:48,859 --> 00:31:54,099
And you're not talking about the past or the future, you're talking about the moment right now.

429
00:31:54,099 --> 00:31:57,260
Whatever is spilling out of your brain in that moment.

430
00:31:57,260 --> 00:32:02,420
So if you were going to start writing, you would say maybe like, I don't know what to write.

431
00:32:02,420 --> 00:32:04,339
So you would write down, I don't know what to write.

432
00:32:04,339 --> 00:32:07,739
And then you think this is stupid and you write down, this is stupid.

433
00:32:07,739 --> 00:32:08,900
That's what I mean.

434
00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:14,300
Whatever is in your mind in that moment, no grammar, no punctuation,

435
00:32:14,300 --> 00:32:18,660
just one continuous run-on sentence, five or 10 minutes.

436
00:32:18,660 --> 00:32:21,060
It's called expressive writing.

437
00:32:21,060 --> 00:32:24,780
And then at the end, you rip it up and you throw it away.

438
00:32:24,780 --> 00:32:28,619
Now, you're going to be more honest with yourself knowing that you're about to destroy it.

439
00:32:28,619 --> 00:32:32,339
So it's not laying around the house, no one else is going to find it.

440
00:32:32,339 --> 00:32:35,699
If you have some dark thoughts in there, you can put it down there.

441
00:32:35,699 --> 00:32:39,180
But expressive writing is the very first place.

442
00:32:39,180 --> 00:32:43,099
And most people have a pen, pencil, and some paper.

443
00:32:43,099 --> 00:32:45,060
And it's relatively easy to do.

444
00:32:45,060 --> 00:32:51,380
And the science has shown that if possible, actually write it out by hand versus type it,

445
00:32:51,380 --> 00:32:57,219
versus just say it, write it out by hand if you can, if that's possible.

446
00:32:57,219 --> 00:33:02,219
And what does that do for the brain as you're doing that?

447
00:33:02,219 --> 00:33:04,219
You have this emotional release.

448
00:33:04,219 --> 00:33:09,140
They have shown that cursing helps with chronic pain.

449
00:33:10,140 --> 00:33:15,660
And bravo to whoever did that study, F-ing bravo.

450
00:33:15,660 --> 00:33:21,939
But the idea is that a lot of our suffering runs through the emotional brain.

451
00:33:21,939 --> 00:33:27,140
And our emotional brain is like a tea kettle where we need to let the steam out.

452
00:33:27,140 --> 00:33:30,140
By letting the steam out, the suffering diminishes,

453
00:33:30,140 --> 00:33:32,140
the physical suffering, emotional suffering.

454
00:33:32,140 --> 00:33:34,939
We need to be able to let the steam out.

455
00:33:34,939 --> 00:33:36,140
We don't want to rage.

456
00:33:36,140 --> 00:33:37,939
We don't want to be out of control.

457
00:33:37,939 --> 00:33:40,939
We don't want to go swing at everything like it's a pinata.

458
00:33:40,939 --> 00:33:47,939
But by being able to have that controlled release, that's why talking to people helps.

459
00:33:47,939 --> 00:33:49,939
They've done all the research in the world.

460
00:33:49,939 --> 00:33:54,939
And there's not one type of therapy that's better than the other.

461
00:33:54,939 --> 00:33:56,939
And it's like, well, that's strange.

462
00:33:56,939 --> 00:33:57,939
Like, shouldn't there be?

463
00:33:57,939 --> 00:33:59,939
And it's like, no, there really, really isn't.

464
00:33:59,939 --> 00:34:03,939
And the number one predictor of therapeutic success is actually rapport.

465
00:34:03,939 --> 00:34:06,939
It's not even what the person's even trained in.

466
00:34:06,939 --> 00:34:08,939
It's just how well can they establish a connection?

467
00:34:08,939 --> 00:34:11,939
And does it seem like that person's listening?

468
00:34:11,939 --> 00:34:16,939
And I know people are going to say, oh, CBT, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy,

469
00:34:16,939 --> 00:34:17,939
that's the gold standard.

470
00:34:17,939 --> 00:34:21,939
That's just an easy way of they can manualize it.

471
00:34:21,939 --> 00:34:23,939
They can put it into a manual.

472
00:34:23,939 --> 00:34:28,939
And it's just very easy to kind of run it individually or through groups.

473
00:34:28,939 --> 00:34:33,939
Because psychology itself, psychotherapy itself is very hard to study

474
00:34:33,939 --> 00:34:36,939
because there's so many individual differences between the clients,

475
00:34:36,939 --> 00:34:40,939
between therapists, that it's just easy to study.

476
00:34:40,939 --> 00:34:42,939
And that's what makes it the gold standard,

477
00:34:42,939 --> 00:34:45,939
not because it's actually better than any of the others.

478
00:34:45,939 --> 00:34:50,939
Or what do you think?

479
00:34:50,939 --> 00:34:55,939
Because I know when I was first diagnosed with my chronic illness,

480
00:34:55,939 --> 00:35:00,939
I had this tendency to go down all these rabbit holes online,

481
00:35:00,939 --> 00:35:02,939
these forums and searching.

482
00:35:02,939 --> 00:35:04,939
Do you think sometimes,

483
00:35:04,939 --> 00:35:09,939
at what point do you think that becomes not healthy or unhelpful to someone

484
00:35:09,939 --> 00:35:12,939
who's just going down that path?

485
00:35:12,939 --> 00:35:14,939
Well,

486
00:35:14,939 --> 00:35:19,939
when you're coming across people who are only kind of demoralized themselves

487
00:35:19,939 --> 00:35:23,939
and complaining, we all try to find where's my tribe, where are my people?

488
00:35:23,939 --> 00:35:27,939
And sometimes when I go into those sites, for me,

489
00:35:28,939 --> 00:35:34,939
the immune-compromised individuals, they're all telling negative stories.

490
00:35:34,939 --> 00:35:38,939
And I really don't want that information.

491
00:35:38,939 --> 00:35:42,939
I want something that's a little more hopeful, a little bit more optimistic.

492
00:35:42,939 --> 00:35:45,939
But the hopeful, optimistic people, they're out living life.

493
00:35:45,939 --> 00:35:47,939
They're not posting things online.

494
00:35:47,939 --> 00:35:50,939
It tends to be a little bit more of the pessimistic, frustrated, disappointed,

495
00:35:50,939 --> 00:35:53,939
things not going right.

496
00:35:53,939 --> 00:35:56,939
So you always have to be careful of those groups.

497
00:35:56,939 --> 00:36:00,939
And what I would say is to structure the time.

498
00:36:00,939 --> 00:36:04,939
We're all going to use AI and Google.

499
00:36:04,939 --> 00:36:08,939
We're going to go and look at YouTube and all the rest.

500
00:36:08,939 --> 00:36:12,939
But give yourself the amount, the poisons and the dose.

501
00:36:12,939 --> 00:36:14,939
And be intentional.

502
00:36:14,939 --> 00:36:16,939
It's like, okay, set a timer on my phone.

503
00:36:16,939 --> 00:36:20,939
And then say, okay, I'm going to do this for the next 30 minutes.

504
00:36:20,939 --> 00:36:24,939
Don't jump into it without a finish line.

505
00:36:24,939 --> 00:36:28,939
And so I would say, one, you should always know

506
00:36:28,939 --> 00:36:31,939
and you should always look it up and use chat, use all those things.

507
00:36:31,939 --> 00:36:34,939
It will lead to better conversations with your doctor.

508
00:36:34,939 --> 00:36:36,939
And they may hate it.

509
00:36:36,939 --> 00:36:38,939
We don't care.

510
00:36:38,939 --> 00:36:41,939
It gives you the ability for you to be knowledgeable.

511
00:36:41,939 --> 00:36:43,939
But at the same time,

512
00:36:43,939 --> 00:36:47,939
you don't want to get stuck in this negative rumination of it all.

513
00:36:47,939 --> 00:36:50,939
Go there, but you can't stay there.

514
00:36:50,939 --> 00:36:52,939
And put a time limit.

515
00:36:52,939 --> 00:36:54,939
Yeah.

516
00:36:54,939 --> 00:36:58,939
That's important because you can, as you're struggling for answers,

517
00:36:58,939 --> 00:37:00,939
you try to find your tribe.

518
00:37:00,939 --> 00:37:02,939
You can go down this hole.

519
00:37:02,939 --> 00:37:04,939
And you're almost just stuck there.

520
00:37:04,939 --> 00:37:06,939
No, absolutely.

521
00:37:06,939 --> 00:37:08,939
Because you're looking for hope.

522
00:37:08,939 --> 00:37:11,939
Hopelessness is that nothing is going to get better.

523
00:37:11,939 --> 00:37:15,939
Helplessness is there's nothing that you can do to make things better.

524
00:37:15,939 --> 00:37:21,939
And you want to be mindful of just what are my intentions here.

525
00:37:22,939 --> 00:37:26,939
Because you can get stuck just on Reddit.

526
00:37:26,939 --> 00:37:28,939
That's another one I didn't mention,

527
00:37:28,939 --> 00:37:31,939
but I've used plenty of times being on Reddit

528
00:37:31,939 --> 00:37:34,939
and then just getting stuck in these negative stories

529
00:37:34,939 --> 00:37:36,939
and these negative loops.

530
00:37:36,939 --> 00:37:40,939
And you're just looking for a more positive perspective.

531
00:37:40,939 --> 00:37:42,939
You're looking for information.

532
00:37:42,939 --> 00:37:46,939
And I used to do that obsessively at first.

533
00:37:46,939 --> 00:37:48,939
Obsessively.

534
00:37:49,939 --> 00:37:51,939
But now I rarely look into it.

535
00:37:51,939 --> 00:37:53,939
Every once in a while,

536
00:37:53,939 --> 00:37:56,939
I'll see if there's anything in terms of latest and greatest.

537
00:37:56,939 --> 00:38:01,939
But part of that, I think, too, underneath it,

538
00:38:01,939 --> 00:38:05,939
is that in that obsession, you haven't grieved yet.

539
00:38:05,939 --> 00:38:07,939
It's kind of like you haven't recognized.

540
00:38:07,939 --> 00:38:09,939
There's certain things that are gone

541
00:38:09,939 --> 00:38:14,939
that will always be different from moving forward here.

542
00:38:15,939 --> 00:38:20,939
Because we're trying to make this deal with ourselves

543
00:38:20,939 --> 00:38:23,939
that I can come across this missing piece.

544
00:38:23,939 --> 00:38:26,939
It's like Raiders of the Ark.

545
00:38:26,939 --> 00:38:29,939
You're looking for that one little thing

546
00:38:29,939 --> 00:38:32,939
that's going to just make it exactly like it was

547
00:38:32,939 --> 00:38:35,939
before you were injured, before you were sick.

548
00:38:35,939 --> 00:38:38,939
And the idea is fantastic.

549
00:38:38,939 --> 00:38:40,939
It just doesn't exist.

550
00:38:41,939 --> 00:38:44,939
You're still here, but the rules have changed.

551
00:38:44,939 --> 00:38:48,939
Yeah, and like you said, that is a type of grief.

552
00:38:48,939 --> 00:38:50,939
Oh, yes.

553
00:38:50,939 --> 00:38:52,939
It's the avoidance of grief.

554
00:38:52,939 --> 00:38:55,939
And again, we're balancing it out.

555
00:38:55,939 --> 00:38:57,939
And you never get rid of grief.

556
00:38:57,939 --> 00:38:59,939
Grief always comes back.

557
00:38:59,939 --> 00:39:02,939
There's no speed bumps in grief.

558
00:39:02,939 --> 00:39:04,939
No matter how you deal with it,

559
00:39:04,939 --> 00:39:07,939
it's like you may set it down.

560
00:39:07,939 --> 00:39:09,939
It's like you may have to do an infusion,

561
00:39:09,939 --> 00:39:11,939
a reminder of where you are.

562
00:39:11,939 --> 00:39:12,939
It's like that you're sick.

563
00:39:12,939 --> 00:39:14,939
You have to make the doctor's appointment,

564
00:39:14,939 --> 00:39:15,939
reminder that you're sick.

565
00:39:15,939 --> 00:39:17,939
The grief will return.

566
00:39:17,939 --> 00:39:21,939
But the idea is to be able to set it down more quickly

567
00:39:21,939 --> 00:39:23,939
and for it not to hurt as much.

568
00:39:23,939 --> 00:39:27,939
But grief with chronic illness never really goes away.

569
00:39:27,939 --> 00:39:31,939
How do you handle the grief with your chronic illness?

570
00:39:31,939 --> 00:39:33,939
I try to deal with it honestly.

571
00:39:33,939 --> 00:39:35,939
I try to feel it.

572
00:39:36,939 --> 00:39:38,939
Yes, I'm a one-trick pony here.

573
00:39:38,939 --> 00:39:41,939
If it really hurts, I write poetry.

574
00:39:41,939 --> 00:39:45,939
It's the first place that I go because I can control it.

575
00:39:45,939 --> 00:39:48,939
When I'm sick or I'm grieving,

576
00:39:48,939 --> 00:39:52,939
there's a part of life where I don't have any control.

577
00:39:52,939 --> 00:39:55,939
I'm feeling a little bit more helpless in that situation.

578
00:39:55,939 --> 00:39:59,939
So I'm always looking for places that give me agency.

579
00:39:59,939 --> 00:40:03,939
And whatever it is, writing a book,

580
00:40:04,939 --> 00:40:07,939
I just finished one on existentialism

581
00:40:07,939 --> 00:40:10,939
and living with chronic illness called The Absurd Body.

582
00:40:10,939 --> 00:40:13,939
I go and look to complete that.

583
00:40:13,939 --> 00:40:16,939
I look to see what I can make.

584
00:40:16,939 --> 00:40:19,939
I will feel down when I'm grieving and say,

585
00:40:19,939 --> 00:40:22,939
okay, if I'm hurting like this,

586
00:40:22,939 --> 00:40:24,939
there are people out there hurting as well.

587
00:40:24,939 --> 00:40:26,939
Let me go create a podcast.

588
00:40:26,939 --> 00:40:28,939
All my podcasts are solo episodes

589
00:40:28,939 --> 00:40:31,939
talking about just different things.

590
00:40:31,939 --> 00:40:34,939
And I will go and create with it.

591
00:40:34,939 --> 00:40:36,939
I will use it as my,

592
00:40:36,939 --> 00:40:39,939
the pain is the muse for all of my creations.

593
00:40:41,939 --> 00:40:43,939
What was it like for you to make that decision

594
00:40:43,939 --> 00:40:45,939
to start a podcast,

595
00:40:45,939 --> 00:40:47,939
to start talking about having these conversations

596
00:40:47,939 --> 00:40:49,939
about chronic pain and illness?

597
00:40:50,939 --> 00:40:54,939
The word for me is potential.

598
00:40:54,939 --> 00:40:56,939
When you get sick,

599
00:40:56,939 --> 00:40:58,939
and it's like as we get older,

600
00:40:58,939 --> 00:41:01,939
we feel like our potential narrows.

601
00:41:01,939 --> 00:41:02,939
As we get sick,

602
00:41:02,939 --> 00:41:07,939
it just amplifies the diminished idea of potential.

603
00:41:07,939 --> 00:41:10,939
We feel like there's just less and less of us.

604
00:41:10,939 --> 00:41:13,939
And it feels like the world is getting very small.

605
00:41:13,939 --> 00:41:17,939
And for me, it felt great.

606
00:41:17,939 --> 00:41:20,939
And it's like, there was a little bit of trepidation.

607
00:41:20,939 --> 00:41:22,939
Is anyone possibly,

608
00:41:22,939 --> 00:41:24,939
is there one person out there

609
00:41:24,939 --> 00:41:28,939
that would even remotely care to listen to it?

610
00:41:28,939 --> 00:41:30,939
And you're getting vulnerable.

611
00:41:30,939 --> 00:41:32,939
You're getting exposed in that way.

612
00:41:32,939 --> 00:41:35,939
And it took a little while to kind of shed that.

613
00:41:35,939 --> 00:41:39,939
And then there were a handful of people

614
00:41:39,939 --> 00:41:41,939
that found benefit in it.

615
00:41:41,939 --> 00:41:43,939
And so it's like, okay, then it continues.

616
00:41:43,939 --> 00:41:46,939
And I'm up to 50 episodes at this point

617
00:41:46,939 --> 00:41:51,939
and just continuing to explore.

618
00:41:51,939 --> 00:41:52,939
And what am I exploring?

619
00:41:52,939 --> 00:41:54,939
I'm exploring my potential.

620
00:41:54,939 --> 00:42:00,939
And anything that feeds potential is what I seek out.

621
00:42:02,939 --> 00:42:06,939
It's an interesting pivot that life kind of placed you in,

622
00:42:06,939 --> 00:42:08,939
to now have a chronic illness

623
00:42:08,939 --> 00:42:12,939
where you had to explore different potentials of yourself.

624
00:42:12,939 --> 00:42:15,939
You had your life before,

625
00:42:15,939 --> 00:42:17,939
and then now kind of after.

626
00:42:17,939 --> 00:42:19,939
And what's that like for you?

627
00:42:19,939 --> 00:42:23,939
Well, it's one where sometimes stoicism,

628
00:42:23,939 --> 00:42:26,939
which going back is the grandfather

629
00:42:26,939 --> 00:42:28,939
of cognitive behavioral therapy.

630
00:42:28,939 --> 00:42:31,939
But it is one concept that I've always liked,

631
00:42:31,939 --> 00:42:34,939
which is amor fati, which is the love of fate.

632
00:42:34,939 --> 00:42:36,939
You can hate fate all you want,

633
00:42:36,939 --> 00:42:39,939
but then you just end up with a problem and hate.

634
00:42:39,939 --> 00:42:42,939
And so you might as well end up with a problem

635
00:42:42,939 --> 00:42:43,939
and love the problem

636
00:42:43,939 --> 00:42:46,939
to be able to see what you can do with the problem.

637
00:42:46,939 --> 00:42:50,939
And my mom would call it the gift poorly wrapped.

638
00:42:50,939 --> 00:42:55,939
And so, okay, you gave me this poor wrapping.

639
00:42:55,939 --> 00:42:59,939
You gave me this illness, this pain, this problem, whatever it is.

640
00:42:59,939 --> 00:43:02,939
What can I do with this poor wrapping?

641
00:43:02,939 --> 00:43:04,939
And when I think about it personally,

642
00:43:04,939 --> 00:43:08,939
because my natural kind of like archetype of who I am,

643
00:43:08,939 --> 00:43:10,939
I'm a helper and that's who I am.

644
00:43:10,939 --> 00:43:12,939
I've never been in a fight my entire life.

645
00:43:12,939 --> 00:43:14,939
I'm not an aggressive person.

646
00:43:15,939 --> 00:43:17,939
I'm pretty mellow.

647
00:43:17,939 --> 00:43:22,939
And so I always think, oh, okay, I have this poor wrapping.

648
00:43:22,939 --> 00:43:25,939
I wonder how I can help other people with this.

649
00:43:25,939 --> 00:43:27,939
And that's my go-to.

650
00:43:27,939 --> 00:43:30,939
How can I help other people with this?

651
00:43:31,939 --> 00:43:33,939
What does it feel like for you

652
00:43:33,939 --> 00:43:37,939
when someone comes to you for help

653
00:43:37,939 --> 00:43:41,939
and you're able to help them slowly

654
00:43:41,939 --> 00:43:43,939
kind of rebuild their new identity?

655
00:43:44,939 --> 00:43:46,939
It feels like there's purpose to my life.

656
00:43:46,939 --> 00:43:50,939
I feel most authentically me

657
00:43:50,939 --> 00:43:54,939
when I am the guide, the mentor of someone

658
00:43:54,939 --> 00:43:57,939
navigating essentially what their story is

659
00:43:57,939 --> 00:44:00,939
because most people who are going through this,

660
00:44:00,939 --> 00:44:03,939
and I've found this to be true through the decades,

661
00:44:03,939 --> 00:44:06,939
they're not mentally ill.

662
00:44:06,939 --> 00:44:10,939
It's like sometimes they get their own labels of depression, anxiety.

663
00:44:11,939 --> 00:44:13,939
And I believe in depression, anxiety,

664
00:44:13,939 --> 00:44:15,939
and people do have depression, anxiety.

665
00:44:15,939 --> 00:44:17,939
I'm not saying that at all.

666
00:44:17,939 --> 00:44:21,939
But what I am saying is that most people are worried.

667
00:44:21,939 --> 00:44:22,939
They're concerned.

668
00:44:22,939 --> 00:44:23,939
They're lost.

669
00:44:23,939 --> 00:44:25,939
They're demoralized,

670
00:44:25,939 --> 00:44:28,939
which are much more these subclinical symptoms.

671
00:44:28,939 --> 00:44:30,939
And it's like I've seen very, very depressed

672
00:44:30,939 --> 00:44:32,939
and very, very anxious people,

673
00:44:32,939 --> 00:44:34,939
and I've been very, very depressed

674
00:44:34,939 --> 00:44:36,939
and very, very anxious before.

675
00:44:36,939 --> 00:44:39,939
So it's like I'm not minimizing that one bit,

676
00:44:39,939 --> 00:44:44,939
but it's me as the storyteller and the editor

677
00:44:44,939 --> 00:44:48,939
and someone who can help someone edit their story.

678
00:44:48,939 --> 00:44:50,939
It's like you're not mentally ill.

679
00:44:50,939 --> 00:44:51,939
You're lost.

680
00:44:51,939 --> 00:44:54,939
You don't know what to write next.

681
00:44:54,939 --> 00:44:57,939
It's the unfolding of life

682
00:44:57,939 --> 00:44:59,939
and letting there be more

683
00:44:59,939 --> 00:45:03,939
so that you can exercise that agency and that potential.

684
00:45:03,939 --> 00:45:06,939
And that's where I just feel as though

685
00:45:07,939 --> 00:45:10,939
that the world around me makes sense,

686
00:45:10,939 --> 00:45:13,939
and that's where I feel most at home

687
00:45:13,939 --> 00:45:16,939
is helping someone with their story.

688
00:45:17,939 --> 00:45:19,939
Because that's so important.

689
00:45:19,939 --> 00:45:21,939
We keep going back to it.

690
00:45:21,939 --> 00:45:23,939
But once you're diagnosed,

691
00:45:23,939 --> 00:45:25,939
you kind of have to rewrite your story

692
00:45:25,939 --> 00:45:28,939
and find out what your new potential is.

693
00:45:28,939 --> 00:45:29,939
Absolutely.

694
00:45:29,939 --> 00:45:32,939
And all of life is a story.

695
00:45:32,939 --> 00:45:33,939
Everything.

696
00:45:33,939 --> 00:45:34,939
You have a story.

697
00:45:34,939 --> 00:45:36,939
You have countless stories within you.

698
00:45:36,939 --> 00:45:39,939
And I have countless stories within me,

699
00:45:39,939 --> 00:45:41,939
whether it's our country,

700
00:45:41,939 --> 00:45:44,939
whether in terms of Declaration of Independence

701
00:45:44,939 --> 00:45:45,939
or like religions,

702
00:45:45,939 --> 00:45:46,939
and they have their texts.

703
00:45:46,939 --> 00:45:48,939
It's like they're all stories.

704
00:45:48,939 --> 00:45:49,939
They're all stories.

705
00:45:49,939 --> 00:45:51,939
And it's like you're a story.

706
00:45:51,939 --> 00:45:53,939
How is your story?

707
00:45:53,939 --> 00:45:55,939
And how did your story change?

708
00:45:55,939 --> 00:45:58,939
And what do we need to do with the story

709
00:45:58,939 --> 00:45:59,939
that you're holding on?

710
00:45:59,939 --> 00:46:00,939
How do we adapt it?

711
00:46:00,939 --> 00:46:01,939
How do we fix it?

712
00:46:01,939 --> 00:46:03,939
How do we let go of parts of it?

713
00:46:03,939 --> 00:46:07,939
How do we maximize other parts of it?

714
00:46:07,939 --> 00:46:10,939
And it's really the editing of a story,

715
00:46:10,939 --> 00:46:12,939
but not to edit down,

716
00:46:12,939 --> 00:46:14,939
but to expand it,

717
00:46:14,939 --> 00:46:15,939
but in different ways.

718
00:46:15,939 --> 00:46:18,939
And one of the things about the human brain

719
00:46:18,939 --> 00:46:22,939
is that it likes what's always been familiar.

720
00:46:22,939 --> 00:46:23,939
The brain likes,

721
00:46:23,939 --> 00:46:26,939
and that's why someone like I exist.

722
00:46:26,939 --> 00:46:30,939
If people could adapt easily to hardship,

723
00:46:30,939 --> 00:46:31,939
I wouldn't exist.

724
00:46:31,939 --> 00:46:33,939
I would have no clients whatsoever.

725
00:46:33,939 --> 00:46:35,939
But the brain has difficulty

726
00:46:35,939 --> 00:46:38,939
because they want to hold on to what's familiar.

727
00:46:38,939 --> 00:46:42,939
And so that's what I help people with.

728
00:46:42,939 --> 00:46:45,939
What is it now?

729
00:46:45,939 --> 00:46:47,939
You're a chronic illness coach.

730
00:46:47,939 --> 00:46:49,939
You're an author.

731
00:46:49,939 --> 00:46:51,939
You're a podcast host.

732
00:46:51,939 --> 00:46:55,939
Is there any other avenue that you want to explore?

733
00:46:55,939 --> 00:46:58,939
Well, I want to explore

734
00:46:58,939 --> 00:47:00,939
actually doing what I'm doing right now.

735
00:47:00,939 --> 00:47:03,939
Which is just to be in a place

736
00:47:03,939 --> 00:47:06,939
where I'm having conversations on my podcast.

737
00:47:06,939 --> 00:47:10,939
That would be something I've always wanted to do.

738
00:47:10,939 --> 00:47:14,939
And if it ever really kind of came,

739
00:47:14,939 --> 00:47:16,939
this is going to sound silly.

740
00:47:16,939 --> 00:47:18,939
I mentioned this on threads one time

741
00:47:18,939 --> 00:47:23,939
and I got many thumbs up for it,

742
00:47:23,939 --> 00:47:25,939
which is the idea.

743
00:47:25,939 --> 00:47:28,939
This would be like big picture idea

744
00:47:28,939 --> 00:47:32,939
of being the Anthony Bourdain of the chronic illness world,

745
00:47:32,939 --> 00:47:35,939
which is essentially Anthony Bourdain

746
00:47:35,939 --> 00:47:38,939
told stories of humanity,

747
00:47:38,939 --> 00:47:42,939
of what it was like to be a human in different cultures

748
00:47:42,939 --> 00:47:44,939
through the lens of food.

749
00:47:44,939 --> 00:47:47,939
And I would like to do the same,

750
00:47:47,939 --> 00:47:50,939
but through the lens of chronic illness.

751
00:47:50,939 --> 00:47:55,939
Well, I think there's very much a need for that.

752
00:47:56,939 --> 00:47:59,939
I think there absolutely is a need.

753
00:47:59,939 --> 00:48:01,939
I may just have a talent deficiency.

754
00:48:01,939 --> 00:48:03,939
That may be my biggest problem.

755
00:48:03,939 --> 00:48:06,939
I don't think I have a talent deficiency.

756
00:48:06,939 --> 00:48:09,939
I don't think there's a talent deficiency there.

757
00:48:09,939 --> 00:48:11,939
But I have a curiosity for it.

758
00:48:11,939 --> 00:48:17,939
But the first step to that is opening up the idea

759
00:48:17,939 --> 00:48:22,939
of just not doing just solo episodes.

760
00:48:23,939 --> 00:48:27,939
Because for me, that was a great place to start.

761
00:48:27,939 --> 00:48:30,939
But I'm at the point with 50 episodes

762
00:48:30,939 --> 00:48:33,939
that now I find myself, it's like,

763
00:48:33,939 --> 00:48:37,939
yeah, I'm just avoiding interviewing people at this point.

764
00:48:37,939 --> 00:48:42,939
And now I'm recognizing that it's avoidance.

765
00:48:42,939 --> 00:48:47,939
And the next step in terms of my possible potential

766
00:48:48,939 --> 00:48:53,939
would be to open myself up to interviewing other people.

767
00:48:53,939 --> 00:48:55,939
If you should get to that point,

768
00:48:55,939 --> 00:48:58,939
what kind of guests would you be looking for?

769
00:48:58,939 --> 00:49:03,939
Anyone that has a story in and around chronic illness and pain,

770
00:49:03,939 --> 00:49:07,939
where it would give an opportunity to anyone that's listening

771
00:49:07,939 --> 00:49:12,939
to possibly hear themselves within those stories.

772
00:49:12,939 --> 00:49:16,939
And whether it's a patient advocate, a patient, a physician,

773
00:49:16,939 --> 00:49:19,939
from whatever modality it may be,

774
00:49:19,939 --> 00:49:23,939
someone that's working with or someone who may be a caretaker,

775
00:49:23,939 --> 00:49:29,939
whatever it may be, but stories in and around pain and illness.

776
00:49:31,939 --> 00:49:37,939
Well, I could definitely see you as being the Anthony Bourdain of that.

777
00:49:37,939 --> 00:49:39,939
The two kinds.

778
00:49:39,939 --> 00:49:41,939
Well, I mean, look what you've done, though.

779
00:49:42,939 --> 00:49:46,939
You went through this illness

780
00:49:46,939 --> 00:49:51,939
and you persevered to get a proper diagnosis, which is not easy.

781
00:49:51,939 --> 00:49:55,939
And if no one's ever gone down that road, it is not easy at all.

782
00:49:55,939 --> 00:49:57,939
Not easy. Nope.

783
00:49:57,939 --> 00:50:01,939
And take the financial piece out of it.

784
00:50:01,939 --> 00:50:03,939
Oh, I spent so much money on that.

785
00:50:03,939 --> 00:50:05,939
Yeah.

786
00:50:05,939 --> 00:50:10,939
And I think sometimes people don't realize that you lose a lot more than money.

787
00:50:10,939 --> 00:50:13,939
You know, you kind of slowly, like you, like you touched on,

788
00:50:13,939 --> 00:50:17,939
you lose bits of yourself along the way.

789
00:50:17,939 --> 00:50:22,939
Yes. And we grieve our future dreams.

790
00:50:22,939 --> 00:50:25,939
No one knows what our future dreams consist of,

791
00:50:25,939 --> 00:50:28,939
but we know what our future dreams consist of.

792
00:50:28,939 --> 00:50:35,939
And it's a unique thing of grief when we're grieving the future.

793
00:50:35,939 --> 00:50:37,939
No, it is.

794
00:50:38,939 --> 00:50:43,939
And I hope that now that you've started all these endeavors with the podcast

795
00:50:43,939 --> 00:50:46,939
and the books, do you have any new books coming out?

796
00:50:46,939 --> 00:50:48,939
I know you mentioned that you just finished one.

797
00:50:48,939 --> 00:50:49,939
Do you have another one?

798
00:50:49,939 --> 00:50:50,939
Oh, yeah.

799
00:50:50,939 --> 00:50:53,939
The Absurd Body is the latest one.

800
00:50:53,939 --> 00:51:01,939
And I try to make it very just reader friendly in terms of talking about existentialism.

801
00:51:01,939 --> 00:51:07,939
And what I like about existentialism, which is a form of philosophy,

802
00:51:07,939 --> 00:51:14,939
is that, one, a lot of the philosophers dealt with different illnesses themselves,

803
00:51:14,939 --> 00:51:18,939
and they don't have nice, clean, well, here's the answer.

804
00:51:18,939 --> 00:51:21,939
You know, this is what you kind of need to do.

805
00:51:21,939 --> 00:51:23,939
But it's much more of the opening of the questions,

806
00:51:23,939 --> 00:51:30,939
and it's the opening of the consideration, freedom, community, isolation,

807
00:51:30,939 --> 00:51:33,939
mortality, meaning, things of that nature.

808
00:51:33,939 --> 00:51:41,939
And it's this exploration of being able to kind of go there with your own story

809
00:51:41,939 --> 00:51:44,939
and to explore it within that framework.

810
00:51:44,939 --> 00:51:50,939
Well, I like that because it's learning about, it's viewing chronic illness in a different way.

811
00:51:50,939 --> 00:51:53,939
It's not just the medical way.

812
00:51:53,939 --> 00:51:55,939
It's not the medical way.

813
00:51:55,939 --> 00:51:56,939
It's not the fixed way.

814
00:51:56,939 --> 00:52:03,939
And I'm very familiar with some of the individuals like Sarno and all of his disciples.

815
00:52:03,939 --> 00:52:06,939
And wonderful if that helps you.

816
00:52:06,939 --> 00:52:08,939
That's fantastic.

817
00:52:08,939 --> 00:52:13,939
But I think it overly simplifies, and his was very much a mind,

818
00:52:13,939 --> 00:52:20,939
and basically all pain is this overactive signaling within the brain.

819
00:52:20,939 --> 00:52:24,939
And we just need to view these things as safe sensations,

820
00:52:24,939 --> 00:52:28,939
a way to process our anger associated with these emotions.

821
00:52:28,939 --> 00:52:29,939
And you know what?

822
00:52:29,939 --> 00:52:34,939
I think it's wonderful to process the anger or to view these things as safe sensations.

823
00:52:34,939 --> 00:52:36,939
I don't disagree with that.

824
00:52:36,939 --> 00:52:40,939
I just don't think that that's the root cause of all the illness and the pain.

825
00:52:40,939 --> 00:52:44,939
And so I think that they're useful techniques,

826
00:52:44,939 --> 00:52:50,939
but I'm not so black and white with the conclusions that just pain is all from your brain.

827
00:52:50,939 --> 00:52:52,939
No.

828
00:52:52,939 --> 00:52:54,939
I think it's slightly more nuanced than just.

829
00:52:54,939 --> 00:52:55,939
It is nuanced.

830
00:52:55,939 --> 00:53:00,939
And I always like to say that everything is psychosomatic until we understand the pathways.

831
00:53:00,939 --> 00:53:02,939
It's like, oh, now we have this.

832
00:53:02,939 --> 00:53:06,939
Now we can see this in the blood work.

833
00:53:06,939 --> 00:53:08,939
And now we have a way to rule out things.

834
00:53:08,939 --> 00:53:14,939
And it's just like, again, people hate the idea of just saying, I don't know.

835
00:53:14,939 --> 00:53:16,939
And that's what it is.

836
00:53:16,939 --> 00:53:21,939
And so when they're in that situation, it's like, oh, I don't want to say I don't know

837
00:53:21,939 --> 00:53:24,939
because I would just look stupid at that point.

838
00:53:24,939 --> 00:53:26,939
It's like, well, it must be psychological.

839
00:53:26,939 --> 00:53:28,939
Let's go down that route.

840
00:53:28,939 --> 00:53:36,939
And sometimes it can be psychological, but it is not psychological

841
00:53:36,939 --> 00:53:43,939
or the psychosomatic is not as prevalent, I believe, as one might think.

842
00:53:43,939 --> 00:53:47,939
I think that there's a lot more nuance to illness and to pain.

843
00:53:47,939 --> 00:53:51,939
And I don't think it's just the root cause being generated.

844
00:53:51,939 --> 00:53:56,939
Even when you go back and you look at childhood adverse events, the ACEs study,

845
00:53:56,939 --> 00:53:59,939
they showed a 30% correlation.

846
00:53:59,939 --> 00:54:00,939
They didn't show a causation.

847
00:54:00,939 --> 00:54:02,939
They showed a correlation.

848
00:54:02,939 --> 00:54:09,939
And so when someone's in the office, how can you tell if it's the past adverse childhood experiences?

849
00:54:09,939 --> 00:54:11,939
You can't tell.

850
00:54:11,939 --> 00:54:12,939
You don't know.

851
00:54:12,939 --> 00:54:16,939
And so when you take some of that research and you try to put it into the exam room,

852
00:54:16,939 --> 00:54:21,939
it doesn't really hold up very well because there's no real way of being able

853
00:54:21,939 --> 00:54:25,939
to differentiate and find out what really is the truth.

854
00:54:25,939 --> 00:54:28,939
Yeah.

855
00:54:28,939 --> 00:54:35,939
Do you have any little suggestions or anything that you'd like to say to anybody

856
00:54:35,939 --> 00:54:40,939
who's out there listening to this and is struggling with chronic illness?

857
00:54:40,939 --> 00:54:45,939
Well, I would say stay curious about the future.

858
00:54:45,939 --> 00:54:48,939
Stay curious about your own story.

859
00:54:48,939 --> 00:54:53,939
Pay attention to the parts of the story that you have control over.

860
00:54:53,939 --> 00:54:58,939
There may be many, many parts that have been lost, but you want to pay attention.

861
00:54:58,939 --> 00:55:03,939
You want to notice what still remains, what remains.

862
00:55:03,939 --> 00:55:08,939
And that when in doubt, you know, there's two things.

863
00:55:08,939 --> 00:55:13,939
You either ask for help or you try to give help.

864
00:55:13,939 --> 00:55:17,939
Ram Dass, he was a Buddhist philosopher.

865
00:55:17,939 --> 00:55:20,939
He said that we're all just walking each other home.

866
00:55:20,939 --> 00:55:22,939
We're all just walking each other home.

867
00:55:22,939 --> 00:55:29,939
So ask for help and give help and be a part of the greater community

868
00:55:29,939 --> 00:55:35,939
and that we all try to support one another in whatever way we possibly can.

869
00:55:35,939 --> 00:55:39,939
That's important because if you are struggling or you get a new diagnosis,

870
00:55:39,939 --> 00:55:41,939
there's help out there.

871
00:55:41,939 --> 00:55:42,939
There is.

872
00:55:42,939 --> 00:55:43,939
There is.

873
00:55:43,939 --> 00:55:46,939
There's someone who could benefit from your story as we're listening to you

874
00:55:46,939 --> 00:55:49,939
share your story today, you know.

875
00:55:49,939 --> 00:55:51,939
Absolutely.

876
00:55:51,939 --> 00:55:54,939
And your story as well.

877
00:55:54,939 --> 00:55:57,939
Well, like you said, I like what you said.

878
00:55:57,939 --> 00:56:03,939
I had a former, a previous guest who actually named her podcast

879
00:56:03,939 --> 00:56:05,939
after something from Ram Dass.

880
00:56:05,939 --> 00:56:07,939
It was a sit around the fire.

881
00:56:07,939 --> 00:56:13,939
And so it's interesting that you brought that up about that.

882
00:56:13,939 --> 00:56:18,939
And I like that we keep kind of coming back to that.

883
00:56:18,939 --> 00:56:24,939
I am always a fan of solidarity and community as much as possible.

884
00:56:24,939 --> 00:56:29,939
And so, and that I think that's, it's not the answer.

885
00:56:29,939 --> 00:56:32,939
It just makes everything easier.

886
00:56:32,939 --> 00:56:33,939
Yeah.

887
00:56:33,939 --> 00:56:37,939
I mean, when you're fighting battles alone versus when you're fighting them

888
00:56:37,939 --> 00:56:41,939
with someone, I think that just helps you fight a little bit harder.

889
00:56:41,939 --> 00:56:42,939
Absolutely.

890
00:56:42,939 --> 00:56:45,939
Think of it as just as simple as moving a couch.

891
00:56:45,939 --> 00:56:48,939
You can move a couch by yourself or with somebody else.

892
00:56:48,939 --> 00:56:51,939
It's a heck of a lot easier moving it with other people.

893
00:56:51,939 --> 00:56:52,939
It is.

894
00:56:52,939 --> 00:56:56,939
And you'll probably laugh a little bit along the way too.

895
00:56:56,939 --> 00:56:57,939
Yes.

896
00:56:57,939 --> 00:56:59,939
Humor is wonderful.

897
00:56:59,939 --> 00:57:01,939
Dark humor, whatever kind of humor.

898
00:57:01,939 --> 00:57:03,939
Whatever's going to make you laugh.

899
00:57:03,939 --> 00:57:07,939
And usually it's one of those things.

900
00:57:07,939 --> 00:57:10,939
We tend to laugh much more when we have people around us.

901
00:57:10,939 --> 00:57:12,939
We do.

902
00:57:12,939 --> 00:57:16,939
And that's part of the absurd because a lot of it is absurd.

903
00:57:16,939 --> 00:57:20,939
And when it comes to the world of chronic illness,

904
00:57:20,939 --> 00:57:22,939
you have to have a little bit of dark humor.

905
00:57:22,939 --> 00:57:24,939
Oh, it's essential.

906
00:57:24,939 --> 00:57:25,939
You have to.

907
00:57:25,939 --> 00:57:27,939
It's like a requirement.

908
00:57:27,939 --> 00:57:29,939
It is a requirement.

909
00:57:29,939 --> 00:57:33,939
Well, thank you, Dr. Jeffrey Bone, for joining us today.

910
00:57:33,939 --> 00:57:35,939
I really enjoyed our conversation.

911
00:57:35,939 --> 00:57:37,939
Thank you very much.

912
00:57:37,939 --> 00:57:38,939
Thank you.

913
00:57:38,939 --> 00:57:43,939
I appreciate you having me on today and all your wonderful questions.

914
00:57:43,939 --> 00:57:44,939
I appreciate it very much.

915
00:57:44,939 --> 00:57:47,939
I appreciate you taking the time to share your story,

916
00:57:47,939 --> 00:57:52,939
share your journey, not only just personally but professionally.

917
00:57:52,939 --> 00:57:57,939
And if anyone wants to learn more about Dr. Bone or his coaching,

918
00:57:57,939 --> 00:58:00,939
his published works, and his podcast,

919
00:58:00,939 --> 00:58:04,939
To the Bone, Conversations on Pain, Illness, and Meaning,

920
00:58:04,939 --> 00:58:08,939
you can visit his website, drbone.live.

921
00:58:08,939 --> 00:58:11,939
And thank you again for being here.

922
00:58:11,939 --> 00:58:13,939
And thank you to all listeners for tuning in.

923
00:58:13,939 --> 00:58:15,939
And as always,

924
00:58:15,939 --> 00:58:19,939
you can find me and the Caller Cat podcast on all major platforms.

925
00:58:19,939 --> 00:58:23,939
The easiest way to connect with the show and support us is the link tree,

926
00:58:23,939 --> 00:58:25,939
which you can find in the show notes.

927
00:58:26,939 --> 00:58:29,939
It has all our links in one spot.

928
00:58:29,939 --> 00:58:32,939
Until we speak again, please remember,

929
00:58:32,939 --> 00:58:36,939
you don't have to carry what you came from and keep telling your story

930
00:58:36,939 --> 00:58:40,939
because you never know who you will help.

931
00:58:40,939 --> 00:58:42,939
We'll see everybody next time.