Stoicism and Recovery

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Hello, and welcome to the Call Her Cat podcast, the show dedicated to honest conversations

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about addiction, recovery, and finding the strength to break the cycle.

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I'm your host, Cat York, and this is where we get real about the messy, complex, and

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often unspoken truth of what it means to heal.

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If you're working to redefine your story, searching for a connection, we simply need

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to know that you are not alone, you've come to the right place.

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My mission is to hold space for the raw, direct stories of people, including my own, who have

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walked this path.

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We dive into the generational trauma, the personal battles, and the profound lessons

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learned along the way.

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Before we begin, the views expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and the guests.

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This content is for informational and entertainment purposes only and is not intended to be professional

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advice.

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Please consult a qualified professional for guidance specific to your situation.

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Today we have the privilege of hearing from Tony Hart, who is the founder of A Stoic Sobriety,

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a program dedicated to empowering recovery with stoic wisdom.

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With over 36 years of continuous sobriety since 1989 and professional experience in

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addiction treatment, he helps individuals evolve in their recovery journey.

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His unique approach combines the tried and true approaches of the AA 12-step program

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with the ancient logical wisdom of stoicism, offering a path to enlightenment and strength

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for all, regardless of their background or beliefs.

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You can also follow him for updates on his Instagram as well.

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Welcome, Tony.

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Thank you for being here today.

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Thanks so much for having me, Kat.

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I've been looking forward to this conversation for a while.

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Did I miss anything?

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Did you want to add anything about yourself?

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Yeah, no, I think you covered it pretty well.

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I think it might be important for folks to know that the 12 steps of AA are the foundation,

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the rock of my recovery, and I use stoicism just to build on and help me practice a lot

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of the principles that we already have in AA, so there's a natural set of parallels

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there that we'll talk more about.

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But yeah, I'm not trying to create a new recovery program or anything crazy like that.

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Just over the years, I've always just wanted to continue to grow and found that stoicism

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has helped me do that.

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Can you start by defining what stoicism is?

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Yes, and thank you for starting off with that question because that is kind of one of the

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things that when people hear stoicism, they usually refer to how we use the word stoic

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in English language today, which is somebody that has a stiff upper lip and pushes down

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their emotions and is just a kind of automaton, and that is not at all what stoicism itself

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is about.

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The ancient stoic philosophers, I mean, they felt grief, they felt anger, they felt joy.

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I mean, they embraced feelings, but the focus of stoicism is really about not being ruled

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by our feelings.

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So we embrace them, we feel them, but we know enough about our feelings and enough about

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ourselves that we can choose our response to how we react to those feelings instead

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of just using our Neanderthal brain and the fight or flight or any of those.

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It's a rational approach to managing, not controlling, but managing our responses to

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our feelings in a useful way.

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In AA, we talk about the power of the pause, right?

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So something happens, pause for a second, don't just instantly react to it because your

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first reaction, especially for an addict, may not be the right action.

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So that's exactly what the Stoics preach is that they call them impressions.

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So any time we get an impression, whether that's starting a conversation, somebody saying

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something to us, somebody pulling out in traffic, anything like that is an impression.

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So we get an impression and we pause, right?

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And then we choose our response to that.

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So I think the big misconception about stoicism is it's about not feeling or avoiding feelings.

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And in reality, that's the furthest thing from the truth.

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They teach us to challenge our feelings, right?

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So is this real?

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Is it as bad as it seems?

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Am I overlaying my own story in my mind on what's happening?

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So get clear about what that feeling comes with.

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And over time, you have to practice, but just like everything else, you get better, right?

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That pause takes less and less time, but then they also give us, you know, the four

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virtues of wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance.

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And in that pause, we have the virtues in the back of our mind, and they're very prescriptive

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about what these virtues mean.

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And they don't necessarily mean, like, justice is not necessarily, you know, getting a posse

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together and going after people at a different context for the stoics, but basically, and

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this is stoicism at the highest level, but basically, you pause, you think about what

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your reaction is going to be, and you want your reaction to be aligned with these virtues,

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right?

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You want to be a virtuous person.

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You want to do the right thing.

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You want to be able to go to bed at night and sleep without guilt and all those stuff.

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So at its highest level, it's just that, right?

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It's basically, I have an emotion, I look at it, and as I'm thinking through my response,

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I'm applying these virtues, because I want to respond appropriately, right?

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And then the other thing that they really teach us, again, this is a core value in stoicism

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is in modern terms, it's called dichotomy of control, but the way they said it, like

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Epictetus was one of the philosophers, and he simply said, some things are up to us,

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some are not.

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So, you know, they really divide the focus into what we can control, right?

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That's where we should be spending our energy.

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And you know, even we can have some delusions about what we control, right?

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You might think you have control over your adult children, but you really don't.

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So you have to get honest about what you really can and can't control.

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And at the end of the day, if you're being really, really honest, the only thing you

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can control is you, right?

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The only thing I can control are my thoughts and my reactions.

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Somebody once told me that I get a freebie on my first thought, because it's always going

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to be wrong, and then I get the chance to adjust it.

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So I don't judge myself on the first thought, right?

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I judge myself on the mindful thought, which I like that too, because it's like, why do

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I always think bad things, like, right?

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It's like, well, just excuse that first thought, because that's the addict in you, and move

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on to the second part of it.

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But yeah, and then, you know, if anybody hasn't done this practice of really trying to look

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at life and address the things we can control versus can't control, it is very liberating.

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I mean, it gives us a freedom.

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Probably the last thing is, you know, this sounds kind of like all external or internal

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work, right?

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It's like all kind of self-focused on how do we make ourselves better.

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The Stoics didn't look at it that way.

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Part of Stoicism, and this comes in the justice virtue, is, you know, we have a duty to community.

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You know, we're not just, you know, selfishly trying to make our own lives better.

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The idea is, get your damn house in order, and then go show up for others.

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And that's the exact, you know, again, one of those parallels to AA, is, you know, we

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keep coming back, and we share our experience, strength, and hope, and that's our duty, right?

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Because somebody did it for us.

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So that's just kind of taken the top layer off of kind of some of the misrepresentations

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of what Stoicism is.

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I'm happy that you mentioned that because Stoicism is often misunderstood as being about

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like suppressing your emotions.

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Yes, exactly, and when you're, again, and it really comes from the way we use the word

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Stoic today versus, you know, how it was used in ancient times.

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You mentioned Stoicism is ancient wisdom for modern recovery.

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Yep.

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Now, in what way do you feel that the modern challenges to sobriety, like social media

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pressure, make Stoicism even more important than maybe 30 years ago or 20 years ago even?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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I mean, I think, you know, there's multiple things where I think it really, really applies,

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and I think, you know, dichotomy of control, which is what, you know, we talk about, and

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I bang that drum a lot because it is so important, especially in social media, right?

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Because if you're just kind of haunting, you know, social media and just looking at

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things, there's not a lot, I mean, you can block a lot of that stuff out mentally, but

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if you're active and you're having conversations with people and you're, you know, making comments

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to posts, there's a lot of people that are, you know, very brave behind their keyboards,

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and they say not nice things, and they make judgments, and so, again, that instead of

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getting caught up in that, you know, that's not something I can control, right?

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So I just ignore it, whereas if, you know, in recovery, if I start letting that stuff

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eat at me and I start building resentments, you know, which is our number one enemy, you

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know, towards people on social media and stuff, that I'm just, I'm feeding my disease,

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I'm, you know, giving it the fuel to, you know, take me into a relapse if I let it go

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too far.

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So I think especially today with, you know, it's just insane, right?

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I couldn't imagine being a child growing up today, but it's just insane, all the information

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that comes at you, whether it's political or social media or whatever else that our

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minds have to parse, and if you get too engaged or too committed to any of those channels

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without understanding, you know, that there's only certain things I can control, so I can't

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get wound up about any of it.

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It's sad that it's going on, it's sometimes funny that it's going on, you know, it can

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easily lead you to anger, but I think that's one of the big things.

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I think the other big thing, you know, that the Stoics teach us is that, you know, when

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we have one of these impressions, right, when somebody says something to us, you know, we

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put our own story on top of that, right?

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So if my background is, you know, I've been bullied or criticized or something like that

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all my life, then I may take the most, you know, unhurtful comment in the wrong way,

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but the story I build around it is they're judging me, you know, somebody could say,

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hey, that's a great shirt you got on today, and, you know, my mind goes, huh, well, they've

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kind of, you know, been short with me in the past, so I don't think that was actually a

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compliment, you know, I think they were, you know, they were saying something negative

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about me.

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So we build, in our minds, we add stories to what's really going on, and that makes

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it, you know, harder for us to respond appropriately because we're just responding out of our own

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context.

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So, you know, one of the things the Stoics encourage us to do is to challenge and to

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see where we're, you know, overlaying these stories on what's really happening, and, you

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know, nobody's perfect, we've all got those filters, we've all got, you know, we all tell

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our stories, they're not saying stop the stories, they're just saying challenge the stories,

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is this real?

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And I think that's the biggest question in today's world, especially the social media,

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is this real?

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Because a lot of it's just not, I mean, even, you know, people are, you know, building personas

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in their multimedia channels, and if you saw them out at the grocery store, they're not

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the person that they are, you know, on the internet.

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So I think that's one of the key things is just, you know, being rational and trying

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to determine what's real as opposed to just reacting to everything.

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At what point, because you've had 36 years of continuous sobriety, is that correct?

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That is correct.

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I don't know.

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Congratulations on that, by the way.

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Thank you.

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How, at what point in your journey did you discover stoicism?

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Yeah, so, you know, from the very beginning, I went into treatment at the ripe old age

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of 21 after having wrecked my second car drunk.

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And I had flown through the windshield, and the car landed about 20 feet from me.

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So that was as close to a near-death experience as I wanted to get.

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So along with my parents' support, actually, they recommended it, and I really didn't have

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a good argument against it.

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So I go into treatment, and I grab the big book, and I think I demolished that in like

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three days.

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Just once it got me hooked, I'm like, oh, this is me.

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This is me.

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This is me.

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I was all over that book.

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But, you know, like many people, I wouldn't say I got hung up, but the God thing was something

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that was missing for me.

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I didn't grow up in a religious family.

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I didn't have anything necessarily against religion.

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Just I didn't have a context.

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So early in sobriety, and even to this day, I just became a spiritual seeker.

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And even today with my dedication to practice Stoicism, I still read everything.

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I just finished a book on Judaism, how recovery, how Jewish people go through recovery and

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their challenges.

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So I've always had this kind of spiritual drive, but it was probably 25 or 30 years

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ago I picked up Marcus Aurelius, which he's probably one of the two most famous Stoic

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philosophers.

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And I read it, and it was interesting and everything.

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And then probably about 10 or 12 years ago, I picked up Seneca and Epictetus, and I was

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reading Epictetus, which his books called the Incaridion.

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It just clicked with me.

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I don't know if I was just in the right mindset or, you know, what happened, but I got into

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that and it just clicked.

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And I'm like, you know what, this makes a lot of sense.

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And I've always kind of been a, you know, self-enclosed kind of I can take care of myself,

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you know, all that kind of stuff.

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And that's kind of what, and I looked at Buddhism for a while too, and that's Buddhism and Stoicism,

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what they have in common is a lot of accountability, right?

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You're not necessarily turning things over to a deity, and it doesn't take a leap of

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faith to get there.

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They're really actionable, you know, kind of things I feel like I can do.

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While I'm willing to take the leap of faith, if my mind ever gets there, I just haven't

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been able to do the faith thing yet.

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So yeah, 10 or 12 years ago is when it really, really clicked for me.

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So I've been studying it, you know, pretty hard for a decade or so.

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I like that you lean on both, you know, I can see where they would complement each other.

221
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Yeah, and that's, you know, the program of AA, and as you read the big book, I mean,

222
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it gives us a path, right?

223
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It gives us these steps to take to, you know, get us from point A to point B and get us

224
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sober, you know, and, you know, it was written in the 30s.

225
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:08,839
So there's not a lot of talk in there about, you know, mental health and anxiety and, you

226
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know, guilt, there's guilt and shame, but, you know, there's not, I mean, we've got,

227
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you know, cognitive behavioral therapy now, and we know a lot more about our brains.

228
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And so, you know, just if you just practice the program kind of in a vacuum, and the big

229
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book is your Bible, I do think people are missing out on opportunities to grow.

230
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Just because, again, just psychologically and everything else, things have advanced

231
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a lot in the last hundred years, right?

232
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So that's kind of where I was, you know, I practiced the program and still practice the

233
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program.

234
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But its limitations were, you know, I had a lot of mental health, a lot of depression,

235
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you know, a lot of anxiety, I'm a very anxious person, and, you know, AA doesn't address

236
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that directly.

237
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You can have the conversations in the rooms, and you can talk to people and all that stuff.

238
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But if I want to go off and, you know, work myself on doing this stuff, I need to find

239
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a 12 steps for anxiety, a 12 steps for depression, you know what I mean?

240
00:23:45,199 --> 00:23:50,239
One of the reasons AA really appealed to me is, it's a path, right?

241
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Take step one, take step two.

242
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So you know, that resonates with me.

243
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So I want to, you know, go, I need to go out and find something for my mental health that

244
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gives me those, here, do this, do this, do this, think about it this way.

245
00:24:11,959 --> 00:24:19,479
So that's where, you know, I kind of overlay stoicism in my, you know, personal case.

246
00:24:19,479 --> 00:24:25,439
But I mean, it could be anything, it can be Christianity, it can be Buddhism, it can be,

247
00:24:25,439 --> 00:24:34,959
you know, nature lover, whatever, just, I just found that, that limitation in AA, when

248
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you get to a certain level of sobriety, that you just want to keep growing.

249
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:48,760
And it's just not always there, unless you find, you know, people that are very much

250
00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:54,000
like minded in the rooms, and you can go off and talk about this stuff, over coffee

251
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,040
and stuff.

252
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,199
What inspires your, your website?

253
00:25:01,199 --> 00:25:08,680
Yeah, so I think, I think the 12 step, you know, really, I'd, I'd done a couple false

254
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:14,839
starts over the years where, right, I'd think, you know, this is something I want to do.

255
00:25:14,839 --> 00:25:23,760
And just one, one day, I'm just like, you know, stop, stop trying, just, just do it.

256
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:30,880
But it's really in the spirit of the 12 step, I just want to help others, you know, I just

257
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want people to have tools, want people to have other frameworks to explore.

258
00:25:39,439 --> 00:25:46,839
You know, I'm not, I'm not, I'm all about exploring and, and, you know, finding our

259
00:25:46,839 --> 00:25:54,880
own paths, there is no one path to sobriety, there is no one path to spirituality, there

260
00:25:54,880 --> 00:26:00,880
is no, you know, one path for any of us.

261
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:07,479
So really, it was just a way for me to take everything I've learned from AA, take everything

262
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:13,560
I've learned from Stoicism, and draw the parallels between the two.

263
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:21,119
And just, you know, kind of, again, I don't, I don't look at it as a house, I look at it

264
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:27,439
as, you know, I've added a pool and a cabana to the backyard.

265
00:26:27,439 --> 00:26:30,239
You know, AA is my house.

266
00:26:30,239 --> 00:26:37,199
But I've built on it, built on it in a way that way that I enjoy.

267
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:43,319
So again, it's just, it's kind of like, for people like myself that are doing a lot of

268
00:26:43,319 --> 00:26:52,680
seeking and a lot of exploring and just, you know, trying to find out more about, you know,

269
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:56,800
how we can make the best of life in recovery.

270
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:06,479
How do, how does, how has Stoicism helped you through the 12 steps of AA?

271
00:27:06,479 --> 00:27:11,439
Because those can get very, very deep, very heavy, real quick.

272
00:27:11,439 --> 00:27:19,959
Yeah, so I, they, you know, I had already, you know, worked through the 12 steps a couple

273
00:27:19,959 --> 00:27:26,599
times, you know, and some of them, obviously, we, we try to work every day.

274
00:27:26,599 --> 00:27:31,160
So I didn't really have the practice to apply when I was doing them.

275
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:42,560
But I do have articles on every step on my website that walks through how to apply Stoic

276
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:48,199
principles when you're, when you're going through the steps, right?

277
00:27:48,199 --> 00:27:53,599
So especially like, you know, the fourth and fifth step, what I've talked about earlier

278
00:27:53,599 --> 00:27:59,680
is, you know, what was, what's reality and what's the story we tell ourselves, right?

279
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:05,560
So as we're, as we're going through building our inventory and going through our resentments,

280
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:13,160
you know, we can, we can challenge those resentments that we've had and go, oh, was it really that

281
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,160
bad?

282
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:20,520
Was it, you know, and sometimes you, you know, you can kind of dissolve some of those resentments

283
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:26,680
just by taking a good hard look at them and, and, you know, going, hey, do I have this

284
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:32,760
resentment because they just didn't agree with me or wouldn't do what I wanted them

285
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:33,760
to do?

286
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:39,560
You know, it was like trying to exercise control over something I really didn't have control

287
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,599
over and I built a resentment around it.

288
00:28:43,599 --> 00:28:53,319
Yeah, so it's, it's, it's things like that and obviously, you know, wisdom and courage

289
00:28:53,319 --> 00:28:57,560
come into a lot of steps.

290
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:03,719
You know, when you get to making amends, you know, it takes some courage and some wisdom.

291
00:29:03,719 --> 00:29:10,359
We don't, don't want to make those amends that'll be harmful to others.

292
00:29:10,359 --> 00:29:17,319
You know, we want to, we want to go into it, you know, with, with a level of compassion

293
00:29:17,319 --> 00:29:20,199
and, but, but it takes courage.

294
00:29:20,439 --> 00:29:28,239
I mean, all the steps take courage to be, you know, be, be frank, but yeah, that's,

295
00:29:28,239 --> 00:29:33,040
that's again, again, they, they didn't have a huge impact on me just because I had done

296
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:42,920
mine previous to, you know, except the ones that I, I regularly work had done them beforehand,

297
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:49,239
but, but I do have guidance on, on the website, you know, when you're going through a fourth

298
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:57,479
step, you know, here's some stoic principles that can help you navigate this step.

299
00:29:57,479 --> 00:30:01,000
For those who aren't familiar, what, what is the fourth step?

300
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:10,599
Oh, geez, it's basically taking a fearless, moral inventory of ourselves.

301
00:30:10,599 --> 00:30:17,560
So that's when we sit down, sit down with a piece of paper and, you know, draw some

302
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:25,319
columns on there and say, here, list all my resentments and, and who they're against

303
00:30:25,319 --> 00:30:29,000
and what they're about.

304
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:34,199
And it's that list of resentments that we want to, you know, we want to address, we

305
00:30:34,199 --> 00:30:45,479
want to, part of all steps four through nine are, are really about getting rid of the guilt

306
00:30:45,479 --> 00:30:52,119
and shame that we carry from our addiction into our recovery.

307
00:30:52,119 --> 00:30:59,280
And if we're carrying that baggage around, it's, it's really hard to move forward.

308
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:04,079
You know, when you're, you're thinking, you know, poorly of, of yourself all the time

309
00:31:04,079 --> 00:31:08,079
or, you know, focused on what you did wrong.

310
00:31:08,079 --> 00:31:16,920
And so, you know, all through the, like I said, the, the fourth through the ninth steps

311
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:25,880
about, you know, getting rid of that baggage and it, and it all starts with, you know,

312
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:33,680
making a searching and fearless, moral inventory of ourselves so, so that, you know, that kicks

313
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:40,920
off and then, and then we move on in the fifth step to admitting to God what our faults

314
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:41,920
are, right?

315
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:50,400
And then the nature of our wrongs, then we, you know, ask God to help us, you know, deal

316
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:55,839
with these defects of character, ask him to humbly remove them.

317
00:31:55,839 --> 00:32:00,520
And then, then we make a list and it comes out of the fourth step, but, you know, we

318
00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:08,400
have this list of people that we've got resentments around or that we've done bad things to and,

319
00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:14,560
and we go out and we make amends for that, you know, regardless of, with the exception

320
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,359
of, you know, we don't want to hurt other people, we don't want to make amends that

321
00:32:18,359 --> 00:32:24,640
are going to hurt people, but at the same time, at the same time, we can't be selfish

322
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:29,079
and say, I don't want to make this amends because I'm afraid they'll yell at me and

323
00:32:29,079 --> 00:32:31,520
I'll feel bad, right?

324
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:39,640
It's just, it's, it's something that we've got to go through to, to dump that baggage.

325
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:45,079
So yeah, that's, it's, like I said, for it, for each of the steps, you know, even, you

326
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:52,280
know, admitting the powerlessness and, and, and all the way through, I just talk about

327
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:53,280
those parallels.

328
00:32:53,280 --> 00:33:00,079
When, now when you're, because when you're going through the steps, a lot of heavy emotions

329
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:07,040
will come up like shame, guilt, regret, even depression, you know, not an emotion, you'll

330
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:11,160
certainly can spiral into certain things.

331
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:16,479
How does stoicism like support that process?

332
00:33:16,479 --> 00:33:17,479
Yeah.

333
00:33:17,479 --> 00:33:18,479
Yeah.

334
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:24,160
Because that's like, like you said, AA is like your home and stoicism is like the pool.

335
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:25,640
So it's a nice compliment to it.

336
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,920
How does it support those heavy feelings?

337
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:33,839
Yeah, I think, and that's, again, where, where, where there's a big parallel.

338
00:33:33,839 --> 00:33:42,199
So I kind of break that down into, you know, past guilt, you know, present guilt, like

339
00:33:42,199 --> 00:33:46,439
something I did today and, and shame, right?

340
00:33:46,439 --> 00:33:56,479
So, you know, the past guilt is really where one of the big parallels is, is, is the Stoics

341
00:33:56,479 --> 00:34:06,479
basically say, you know, identify the situation, you know, figure out what I did wrong and

342
00:34:06,479 --> 00:34:09,760
fix it and move on, right?

343
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:17,239
Which is basically, you know, that that's what steps four through nine give us, is that

344
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,360
step by step to do exactly that, right?

345
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:27,639
And then, you know, this will lead into shame, but really the past guilt, they would have

346
00:34:27,639 --> 00:34:28,959
the same approach, right?

347
00:34:28,959 --> 00:34:35,879
It's just, you know, analyze it and make it right and move on, because it because it's

348
00:34:35,879 --> 00:34:37,399
not worth our time and energy.

349
00:34:37,399 --> 00:34:41,600
It's not something we can control today.

350
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:50,760
As far as present guilt, you know, Seneca has a passage in my desktop.

351
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:57,479
So I'll just read it here real quick, because my memory won't, won't do it justice.

352
00:34:57,479 --> 00:35:03,080
But basically, he says, you know, when the light has been taken away, and my wife has

353
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:12,120
fallen silent, aware as she is of my habit, I examine my entire day, which is, you know,

354
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,280
what we do as well.

355
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:21,360
Going through what I've done and said, I conceal nothing from myself, I pass nothing by, I

356
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,360
have nothing to fear for my errors.

357
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,120
When I can say, see that you do not do this anymore.

358
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,520
For the moment, I excuse you.

359
00:35:32,959 --> 00:35:42,320
And so I mean, I think that's just a powerful way of, you know, looking at the guilt that

360
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,600
may have come up today, right?

361
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:49,199
It's like, and maybe I have to go back and make amends.

362
00:35:49,199 --> 00:35:57,719
But at the same time, you know, my commitment to myself is, I don't do that anymore, right?

363
00:35:57,719 --> 00:35:59,719
Don't do it again, dummy.

364
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,439
You won't have to go through this process and identify it again.

365
00:36:04,439 --> 00:36:09,120
If you do do it again, I'll see you tomorrow night.

366
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:19,239
But, but, yeah, I think the most powerful part of that is, for the moment, I excuse

367
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:20,239
you.

368
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:21,239
Right, right.

369
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:26,360
So, you know, we're, we're acknowledging that we're human, that we're going to make mistakes

370
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,959
and then this leads into shame, right?

371
00:36:30,959 --> 00:36:37,239
The difference between guilt and shame is guilt is, I've done something bad.

372
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,239
Shame is, I am bad.

373
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:40,239
Right.

374
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:48,520
You know, shame is that, that, you know, we take it and we, again, build our own stories

375
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:56,600
around the guilt and build ourselves up into bad people when, when we're not bad people.

376
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,479
We just, we make bad decisions.

377
00:36:59,479 --> 00:37:05,560
We say dumb stuff, you know, we're just human, right?

378
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:12,679
So a little bit on, on, on the shame, I think the Stoics, Stoics take, you know, a little

379
00:37:12,679 --> 00:37:19,199
bit harsher, maybe harsh isn't the right word, a little stronger stance on it as, you

380
00:37:19,199 --> 00:37:28,679
know, shame is all about how we think about ourselves and, and we can control our thinking.

381
00:37:28,679 --> 00:37:34,840
And even if it's not, you know, I can control it right this second, I can, I can practice

382
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,840
over time, right?

383
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,840
And it's, it's something I can control.

384
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:50,199
So, you know, the, the Stoics would, would basically say, go through that effort, right?

385
00:37:50,199 --> 00:37:51,560
Get your thinking right.

386
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,159
You are not a bad person.

387
00:37:54,159 --> 00:37:56,280
You can control this.

388
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:03,360
So they would look at chronic shame really as, you know, this is just self-inflicted

389
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:08,320
suffering and, and you hold the key to the room.

390
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:14,159
When you want to leave the room, use the key, right?

391
00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:21,439
So that's, again, I think it's, it's, again, very much in line with, you know, what, what

392
00:38:21,439 --> 00:38:29,120
AA tells us is, you know, they were big on journaling, big on reviewing, reviewing their

393
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:30,679
day, day.

394
00:38:30,679 --> 00:38:38,560
So they were doing the 10th step long before we were.

395
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:45,239
And again, the importance of getting rid of that guilt.

396
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:50,239
And for us, you know, they didn't have steps four through nine, but, and they didn't, you

397
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:55,939
know, prescriptively say, here's how to get rid of your past guilt.

398
00:38:55,939 --> 00:39:00,979
But they said, get rid of it and fix it and move on.

399
00:39:00,979 --> 00:39:06,580
So they try to put you, is it, is it accurate to say that stoicism tries to put you in the

400
00:39:06,580 --> 00:39:08,500
driver's seat of your emotions?

401
00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:09,500
Yeah.

402
00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:13,860
That doesn't want you to get rid of them, but once you just to.

403
00:39:13,860 --> 00:39:15,100
That is exactly right.

404
00:39:15,100 --> 00:39:23,939
It is, it is about not letting the emotions rule out ourselves, right?

405
00:39:23,939 --> 00:39:30,300
So we're, we're in control, again, we may not be in control of the emotion, like I can't

406
00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:38,659
stop grieving when a close friend dies or my mom died, I can't stop the grief, you know,

407
00:39:38,659 --> 00:39:49,500
but what I can do is in that, in that pause, I can not, you know, act dumbly out of that

408
00:39:49,500 --> 00:39:50,500
grief.

409
00:39:50,500 --> 00:39:56,939
I mean, I don't run out and grab a sledgehammer and start bashing my car because I'm so overwhelmed

410
00:39:56,939 --> 00:39:59,500
with grief.

411
00:39:59,500 --> 00:40:05,699
That's your, that's your emotions driving, like you said.

412
00:40:05,699 --> 00:40:12,379
So yeah, it's not again, like you said, it's not about not feeling, it's about not letting

413
00:40:12,379 --> 00:40:17,860
those feelings, you know, rule your life.

414
00:40:18,860 --> 00:40:28,699
Now, I imagine in, in 36 years of continuous sobriety, your, your understanding of sobriety

415
00:40:28,699 --> 00:40:33,340
has changed as compared to like the first day or the first year.

416
00:40:33,340 --> 00:40:39,260
What are some changes or how has your sobriety evolved from when you first entered the rooms?

417
00:40:39,659 --> 00:40:49,659
Yeah, I think, you know, especially early on, I was, I was resentful that I was an addict.

418
00:40:49,659 --> 00:40:57,340
I was one of those people, you know, I wasn't like wallowing in it and so why me, why me?

419
00:40:57,340 --> 00:41:04,340
The same time, I wasn't very fricking happy about it, you know, I was like, all my buddies

420
00:41:04,340 --> 00:41:08,219
are still out there getting drunk and using and damn it, I can't.

421
00:41:08,219 --> 00:41:15,979
Well, I can, but you know, I know the consequences so, and I don't want to suffer the consequences,

422
00:41:15,979 --> 00:41:18,979
so I'm not going to do it.

423
00:41:18,979 --> 00:41:26,260
But I think that was, you know, something that, that evolved, you know, over, over time,

424
00:41:26,260 --> 00:41:33,100
you know, being an addict, I, I couldn't be more grateful today.

425
00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:40,419
And I wouldn't change a single thing if I had it to do all over again, because being

426
00:41:40,419 --> 00:41:49,020
an addict forced me, you know, into, yeah, I hate to use these words because they're

427
00:41:49,020 --> 00:41:55,020
so cliche, but, but it forced me into self-improvement, right?

428
00:41:55,020 --> 00:42:02,379
It forced me into being a better person that I can live with.

429
00:42:02,379 --> 00:42:08,860
And I think one of the other things that's, that's really changed over time is, you know,

430
00:42:08,860 --> 00:42:12,820
how I, how I think about addiction.

431
00:42:12,820 --> 00:42:19,300
You know, I, learning early in sobriety, you know, it's not wrong, you know, they call

432
00:42:19,300 --> 00:42:23,500
it a chemical dependency, right?

433
00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:29,580
And you know, there's other ways that people look upon addictions, but I think, you know,

434
00:42:29,580 --> 00:42:38,100
I was an addict long before I picked up my first drink or drug, you know, all through

435
00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:44,300
my childhood, I was just uncomfortable in my own skin.

436
00:42:44,300 --> 00:42:51,219
You know, I was, I can't remember, maybe, oh, eighth or ninth grade, I ran cross country

437
00:42:51,219 --> 00:43:00,540
in school and they let us, they let us put our own nicknames on the back of our jerseys.

438
00:43:00,540 --> 00:43:09,540
And I literally, the nickname I put on the jersey was insane.

439
00:43:09,540 --> 00:43:15,260
You know, even at that age, I just, I was just, just not comfortable in my own skin.

440
00:43:15,260 --> 00:43:23,100
I just knew something was off and, you know, whatever that is, the anxiety, or I'm not

441
00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:28,179
enough, or, you know, there's lots of things that, that, that feed into that.

442
00:43:28,179 --> 00:43:35,500
But, but really what happened was when I picked up, you know, that, that first drink and that

443
00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:41,100
drug is, you know, I got relief from that.

444
00:43:41,100 --> 00:43:46,820
All of a sudden I was more comfortable in my skin, you know, and I could, I could, I

445
00:43:46,820 --> 00:43:54,219
could deal with life a little bit better because I was more comfortable in my skin.

446
00:43:54,219 --> 00:43:59,979
And you know, the difference, the difference between an addict and like a problem drinker

447
00:43:59,979 --> 00:44:04,300
or a heavy drinker is the addict enjoys it early on.

448
00:44:04,580 --> 00:44:13,219
I mean, we enjoy, we get joy out of it, but at some point, you know, it turns on us.

449
00:44:13,219 --> 00:44:18,979
And for somebody that, you know, may have been drunk all the time and, you know, always

450
00:44:18,979 --> 00:44:26,459
partying and stuff like that, they get to this point where, you know, where the consequences

451
00:44:26,459 --> 00:44:31,139
are too high and they just, and they can stop.

452
00:44:31,139 --> 00:44:37,179
For the addict, you know, it becomes, this is my solution to life.

453
00:44:37,179 --> 00:44:39,820
I'm not, I'm not doing this to have a good time.

454
00:44:39,820 --> 00:44:52,580
I'm doing it because this helps me function with this, you know, addictive kind of whatever

455
00:44:52,580 --> 00:44:55,979
do that's going on within, within me.

456
00:44:55,979 --> 00:45:00,580
And I, I can't, I can't, I can't stop.

457
00:45:00,979 --> 00:45:02,500
This is my solution.

458
00:45:02,500 --> 00:45:13,219
And, and, and then, you know, you know, everybody that's been through early sobriety knows that,

459
00:45:13,219 --> 00:45:23,780
you know, it, it, it wasn't, I'm trying to think of the best way to put this, it, it,

460
00:45:23,780 --> 00:45:27,899
it, again, again, it's, it, it's our lifeblood.

461
00:45:27,899 --> 00:45:34,899
So, you know, when we take away our solution, the addict doesn't get better.

462
00:45:34,899 --> 00:45:37,780
You know, when you take away the drugs and alcohol, we don't get better.

463
00:45:37,780 --> 00:45:41,739
We get worse for a while.

464
00:45:41,739 --> 00:45:51,139
And you know, that's where AA comes in and gives us, you know, a roadmap for living to

465
00:45:51,139 --> 00:45:59,100
help us back into, you know, now I have, now I have a way to approach life that I can

466
00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:05,540
manage as opposed to needing, you know, my other solution.

467
00:46:05,540 --> 00:46:13,820
So I think just my, my view of addiction, you know, a lot of people, you know, might

468
00:46:13,820 --> 00:46:20,580
feel shame as they get into early addiction because they're an addict just because of

469
00:46:20,580 --> 00:46:28,699
the stigma is a lot lighter, you know, these days, but it's, it's certainly still out there.

470
00:46:28,699 --> 00:46:38,139
So I really have kind of molded my view of, of what addiction is, is it's not, I mean,

471
00:46:38,139 --> 00:46:42,580
the core of it is I was an addict long before I was an addict.

472
00:46:42,580 --> 00:46:47,139
I just didn't find my solution.

473
00:46:47,139 --> 00:46:53,899
And probably the last thing that I, early on, I got, you know, a little too caught up.

474
00:46:53,899 --> 00:46:59,179
I was, I lived in AA, I was still in college.

475
00:46:59,179 --> 00:47:01,500
We had a clubhouse on campus.

476
00:47:01,500 --> 00:47:06,100
I go in there and take naps during, you know, between classes.

477
00:47:06,100 --> 00:47:13,419
So I literally lived, you know, in the clubhouse and those were my, my people and I was grateful

478
00:47:13,419 --> 00:47:14,419
for it.

479
00:47:14,699 --> 00:47:21,020
But, but I got a little bit caught up too much and I think part of it was because some

480
00:47:21,020 --> 00:47:27,739
of the folks that I like to hang around with had very strong opinions.

481
00:47:27,739 --> 00:47:32,780
So I kind of fell into that rut of, yeah, this is the right way.

482
00:47:32,780 --> 00:47:38,739
I've really, you know, learned over time again, I think I said it earlier, but we all have

483
00:47:38,739 --> 00:47:40,580
our own journey.

484
00:47:40,580 --> 00:47:45,379
We all have our own ways that we're getting there.

485
00:47:45,379 --> 00:47:53,419
I can't, I can't have to suspend my judgment of what people are doing, what they're saying

486
00:47:53,419 --> 00:48:01,659
and everything else, because they're talking about their journey, not my journey.

487
00:48:01,659 --> 00:48:05,020
And I have to let, let them take their journey, right?

488
00:48:05,020 --> 00:48:10,300
I can, I can offer inputs, I can offer my own experience.

489
00:48:10,300 --> 00:48:14,540
But at the end of the day, nobody's doing anything wrong.

490
00:48:14,540 --> 00:48:17,419
They're just doing their journey.

491
00:48:17,419 --> 00:48:23,580
Some journeys lead to relapse, multiple relapses, some journeys.

492
00:48:23,580 --> 00:48:27,580
I was fortunate that I never had to do that.

493
00:48:27,580 --> 00:48:33,459
But again, I don't suspend judgment on people who do relapse because it's part of their

494
00:48:33,459 --> 00:48:35,979
journey.

495
00:48:35,979 --> 00:48:40,500
You know, it's not that they're bad people, it's not, you know, on the surface, you can

496
00:48:40,500 --> 00:48:44,260
always say, well, they didn't work the program or whatever.

497
00:48:44,260 --> 00:48:47,260
But the reality is they're on their own damn journey, right?

498
00:48:47,260 --> 00:48:52,899
And it's none of my business.

499
00:48:52,899 --> 00:48:58,739
That's what those are the types of things, probably the couple things that have evolved,

500
00:48:58,739 --> 00:49:00,379
you know, over the years with me.

501
00:49:01,379 --> 00:49:08,179
So sobriety, early sobriety, especially now with just everything, social media and everything

502
00:49:08,179 --> 00:49:13,860
is not, I feel it's gotten even more challenging.

503
00:49:13,860 --> 00:49:22,060
And what is, what is a piece of advice you would give to someone who's early in recovery?

504
00:49:22,060 --> 00:49:27,139
Oh, that's a great question.

505
00:49:28,139 --> 00:49:37,979
There's probably two pieces, I'm gonna take your one and raise you one.

506
00:49:37,979 --> 00:49:46,979
So probably the biggest thing is, as long as you don't drink or drug, and you're trying

507
00:49:46,979 --> 00:49:52,580
to work the program, you have time.

508
00:49:52,580 --> 00:50:00,540
You can't fix your past, and you can't solve all of today's problems today.

509
00:50:00,540 --> 00:50:05,219
I was very, I mentioned earlier, I was very anxious.

510
00:50:05,219 --> 00:50:10,820
So early in recovery, I mean, I was looking around at what all these other people had

511
00:50:10,820 --> 00:50:11,820
in sobriety.

512
00:50:11,820 --> 00:50:15,300
I'm like, I want that stuff now.

513
00:50:15,300 --> 00:50:21,939
Get me to this Zen, get me to this, I'm happy about being an addict, get me, you know, and

514
00:50:22,020 --> 00:50:30,179
I think, I think we're just not patient enough with ourselves early in recovery.

515
00:50:30,179 --> 00:50:36,100
And it's, it's because, you know, we get in there and we get excited because we see the

516
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:37,100
path, right?

517
00:50:37,100 --> 00:50:45,260
We're like, man, this is, this is gonna work and we don't take into account our human limitations

518
00:50:45,260 --> 00:50:50,260
that, you know, working through these steps, like you said, it brings up a lot of emotions.

519
00:50:50,260 --> 00:50:57,580
It brings up a lot of stuff, and when that stuff comes up, you got to deal with it.

520
00:50:57,580 --> 00:51:08,659
So you know, it's, my best advice is be very serious about your program.

521
00:51:08,659 --> 00:51:16,139
Do not drink or drug today, and it'll get better.

522
00:51:16,139 --> 00:51:23,780
It'll get worse at times, but in the long run, it'll get better.

523
00:51:23,780 --> 00:51:34,060
And trust that because many, many, many, many people have walked this path successfully.

524
00:51:34,060 --> 00:51:40,179
So there's more evidence than we should ever need that this works, right?

525
00:51:40,179 --> 00:51:46,739
So just, like I said, one day at a time, it's, it's our, it's our mantra, but one day

526
00:51:46,739 --> 00:51:53,939
at a time, you know, just keep at it and don't be hard on yourself.

527
00:51:53,939 --> 00:51:55,459
That would be my first one.

528
00:51:55,459 --> 00:52:01,939
And my second one would be back to the dichotomy of control, right?

529
00:52:02,939 --> 00:52:12,979
especially is do your absolute best to block out the things that you cannot control, right?

530
00:52:12,979 --> 00:52:18,100
You know, if you've been on, you know, if you've been an addict for a long time, and

531
00:52:18,100 --> 00:52:24,780
maybe you've relapsed, you know, people's, you know, family are like, oh, this isn't

532
00:52:24,780 --> 00:52:25,780
going to work.

533
00:52:25,780 --> 00:52:27,899
It's never worked for you before.

534
00:52:27,899 --> 00:52:31,219
I can't control that opinion.

535
00:52:31,219 --> 00:52:33,419
Let them have it, right?

536
00:52:33,419 --> 00:52:39,820
You know, there's, there's grumpy people at meetings, you know, saying, oh, you only went

537
00:52:39,820 --> 00:52:43,699
to one meeting this week, you should do 30 and 30.

538
00:52:43,699 --> 00:52:50,300
And you know, the, the reality is, if I could have been at seven meetings this week, I would

539
00:52:50,300 --> 00:52:54,899
have but I had a sick child and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but I can't control

540
00:52:54,899 --> 00:52:55,899
their opinion.

541
00:52:55,899 --> 00:52:59,139
I can't, you know, like, I can't let that bother me.

542
00:52:59,139 --> 00:53:03,699
There's, you know, we get, we get into so much debt.

543
00:53:03,699 --> 00:53:12,139
A lot of us when we're, when we're in our active addiction, I can't pay that off today.

544
00:53:12,139 --> 00:53:13,379
What can I control?

545
00:53:13,379 --> 00:53:16,699
If I've got an extra $20, I pay it down.

546
00:53:16,699 --> 00:53:20,199
That's the best I can do today.

547
00:53:20,199 --> 00:53:24,659
So it's really, you know, and it's hard.

548
00:53:24,659 --> 00:53:29,820
And I realize it's, you know, it, it, it, it takes a while and takes some practice to

549
00:53:29,820 --> 00:53:38,060
really, you know, determine what we can and can't control in a lot of, lot of situations.

550
00:53:38,060 --> 00:53:42,979
And sometimes we use the, I can't control it as a cop out, right?

551
00:53:42,979 --> 00:53:46,340
Like a way you can really have some influence on that.

552
00:53:46,340 --> 00:53:48,020
Oh, no, I can't control it.

553
00:53:48,020 --> 00:53:50,860
So I'm just gonna not deal with it.

554
00:53:50,860 --> 00:53:57,580
So it's got a little bit of a double edged sword, but, but, you know, if you, if you

555
00:53:57,580 --> 00:54:04,699
focus on all the stuff you can't control, you can't focus on what's important.

556
00:54:04,699 --> 00:54:05,699
Right.

557
00:54:05,699 --> 00:54:08,899
In early sobriety, I can relate to what you're saying.

558
00:54:08,899 --> 00:54:14,580
You walk into the rooms and you're like, I want what that person has, you know, but they've

559
00:54:14,580 --> 00:54:16,459
had 15, 20 years to get there.

560
00:54:16,459 --> 00:54:21,540
They didn't just walk in there and be like, you know, I'm, you know, I'm spiritually enlightened.

561
00:54:21,540 --> 00:54:25,899
Like it took a lot of hardship and a lot of work.

562
00:54:25,899 --> 00:54:33,340
A lot of, you know, the steps and daily show, because a quote I like, or a slogan I like

563
00:54:33,340 --> 00:54:36,459
with it is, you can't get by on yesterday's sobriety.

564
00:54:36,459 --> 00:54:37,459
Right.

565
00:54:37,459 --> 00:54:39,820
It's an everyday thing.

566
00:54:39,820 --> 00:54:40,820
Yeah.

567
00:54:40,820 --> 00:54:43,100
Keep showing up.

568
00:54:43,100 --> 00:54:44,100
Yeah.

569
00:54:44,260 --> 00:54:53,939
Yeah, well, I think we enter into early recovery with the same mindset that we leave addiction

570
00:54:53,939 --> 00:54:56,860
in, in that, that I'm different.

571
00:54:56,860 --> 00:54:57,860
I'm special.

572
00:54:57,860 --> 00:55:01,979
You know, it's like in addiction, it's like, oh, I'm not an addict.

573
00:55:01,979 --> 00:55:07,340
I'm not like so-and-so or I'm not like blah, blah, blah, or I can control it.

574
00:55:07,340 --> 00:55:11,419
So we're kind of like, I'm special, I'm the, I'm the one off.

575
00:55:11,419 --> 00:55:15,340
And then, you know, sometimes I think in the back of our minds, we're like, yeah, it

576
00:55:15,340 --> 00:55:21,419
took them 20 years, but hell, I can get it in six months.

577
00:55:21,419 --> 00:55:22,419
I'm special.

578
00:55:22,419 --> 00:55:23,419
I'm special.

579
00:55:23,419 --> 00:55:30,699
I think, I think the term that I liked one time was terminally unique.

580
00:55:30,699 --> 00:55:33,979
That is the perfect tag.

581
00:55:33,979 --> 00:55:41,179
Now, you have a lot of great resources on a stoicsobriety.com, your website.

582
00:55:41,939 --> 00:55:47,179
What are some good, like, or what's a good starter book on stoicism that you would recommend?

583
00:55:47,179 --> 00:55:52,860
I would, I'd recommend Marcus Aurelius' Meditations.

584
00:55:52,860 --> 00:55:56,979
Actually, what it is, is it's a personal journal of his.

585
00:55:56,979 --> 00:56:01,979
He never intended, you know, to have it published or anything.

586
00:56:01,979 --> 00:56:04,500
It was something that somebody found later.

587
00:56:04,500 --> 00:56:11,780
So it's, it's really, you know, how he's applying these principles in his, in his everyday

588
00:56:11,780 --> 00:56:12,780
life.

589
00:56:12,780 --> 00:56:22,659
There's, there's lots of great authors out there, like Ryan Holiday, Donald Robertson,

590
00:56:22,659 --> 00:56:29,739
that that give, you know, really nice, higher level overviews of stoicism and applying them

591
00:56:29,739 --> 00:56:30,739
to life.

592
00:56:30,739 --> 00:56:43,100
So I like, they're probably two of my favorite authors on applying stoicism to, you know,

593
00:56:43,100 --> 00:56:45,300
to the times.

594
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:53,419
So those three are probably the best, you know, one of Ryan or Donald's books and, and

595
00:56:53,419 --> 00:56:58,300
Meditations by Marcus are, are really good starting points.

596
00:56:58,860 --> 00:57:05,699
And once again, your website has a lot of good resources, not just about stoicism, but

597
00:57:05,699 --> 00:57:06,699
about AA.

598
00:57:06,699 --> 00:57:14,500
It's important to know that there's both a lot of resources there for, for those.

599
00:57:14,500 --> 00:57:24,840
And really what I do is I, I take, I take recovery topics and draw the parallels.

600
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:33,800
As I talk through the topic, it's, the articles aren't just about stoicism and that topic.

601
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:39,919
I'm talking in general about recovery in that topic, like how important humility is and

602
00:57:39,919 --> 00:57:40,919
stuff like that.

603
00:57:40,919 --> 00:57:46,520
But then I, you know, intersperse the, how stoicism parallels that.

604
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,040
So, you know, at its heart, it's a recovery website.

605
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:57,879
I just, you know, blend in the stoicism as a, as a, you know, extra framework that you

606
00:57:57,879 --> 00:58:02,879
can, you can bring to bear in your recovery.

607
00:58:02,879 --> 00:58:05,800
Any last words of wisdom you'd like to leave us with?

608
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:10,000
No, just chill out people.

609
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,080
It's all gonna be okay.

610
00:58:12,080 --> 00:58:19,719
That is actually a very valuable piece of advice.

611
00:58:19,719 --> 00:58:20,719
What is it?

612
00:58:20,719 --> 00:58:23,800
Rule 86, like don't take yourself too seriously.

613
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:27,159
Yes, that's exactly right.

614
00:58:27,159 --> 00:58:28,879
So thank you, Tony.

615
00:58:28,879 --> 00:58:30,840
Thank you for meeting with us today.

616
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:38,000
To wrap on another episode, a huge thank you to Tony Hart, the founder of the StoicSobriety.com.

617
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,360
I appreciate you all tuning in and sticking with me.

618
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:48,360
For all the show links, the notes, and information on today's guest, Tony Hart, visit my Podbean

619
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:52,000
site at unityyork.podbean.com.

620
00:58:52,000 --> 00:58:56,919
You can also connect with me on social media, the links are in the description.

621
00:58:56,919 --> 00:59:00,719
And all links from today's guests will be in the description as well.

622
00:59:00,719 --> 00:59:04,919
And a reminder that really the best way to support is by hitting the subscribe button

623
00:59:04,919 --> 00:59:07,199
and leaving a positive review.

624
00:59:07,199 --> 00:59:09,000
And I want to thank you so much for listening.

625
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:10,879
And I'll thank Tony again.

626
00:59:10,879 --> 00:59:16,239
I really appreciated your time today learning about stoicism, and how it correlates to AA,

627
00:59:16,239 --> 00:59:17,679
and your sobriety.

628
00:59:17,679 --> 00:59:21,120
And congratulations again on your 36 years of sobriety.

629
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:22,120
It's a beautiful thing.

630
00:59:22,120 --> 00:59:23,120
Thank you.

631
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:24,120
Thanks.

632
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:25,120
And thanks for having me on.

633
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:26,120
I really enjoyed it.

634
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:26,620
Absolutely.