Traumatic Childhood to Clinical Healer

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Hello, and welcome to the Call Her Cat podcast, the show dedicated to honest conversations

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about addiction, recovery, and finding the strength to break the cycle.

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I'm your host, Cat York, and this is where we get real about the messy, complex, and

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often unspoken truth of what it means to heal.

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If you are working to redefine your story, searching for connection, or simply need to

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know you're not alone, you've come to the right place.

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My mission is to hold space for the raw, honest, and direct stories of people who have walked

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this path.

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We dive into the generational trauma, the personal battles, and the profound lessons

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learned along the way.

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Today we're joined by Peggy Scharr.

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Peggy is a licensed clinical psychotherapist and author of Surviving the Family Kingdom

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and the Burning Mouth Syndrome Survival Guide.

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Her work bridges lived experience and professional insight, exploring trauma, resilience, healing,

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and the long road back to self.

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In Surviving the Family Kingdom, Peggy recounts her childhood inside a religious movement

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her mother created, called the Kingdom, where faith and fear were tightly intertwined.

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The memoir traces her journey from spiritual control and family estrangement to independence,

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higher education, and ultimately becoming a psychotherapist.

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Her second book, the Burning Mouth Syndrome Survival Guide, grew out of her own experience

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developing Burning Mouth Syndrome after the loss of her son by suicide.

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Blending personal story with practical research-informed strategies, the book offers compassionate

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guidance and effective approaches for living with BMS.

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Peggy's writing is honest, psychologically grounded, and deeply human.

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She lives in Georgia with her husband and their spoiled cat, Waylon.

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And just a quick note before we get started, this podcast is for informational and entertainment

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purposes only.

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The content and discussions are not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

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treatment or therapy.

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Please always consult with a qualified health professional with any questions about your

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individual health or mental health condition.

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If you or someone you know is in crisis, please seek immediate professional help.

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So settle in, and let's start the conversation.

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Peggy, is there anything you'd like to add?

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Oh my gosh, I think you covered it pretty well.

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Yeah, and well one thing I would like to add is that while my book is not specifically

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about addiction, there is a lot of information, I guess, maybe information isn't the right

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word, but there is a lot of parts of the book that really highlight how addiction influenced

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my mother.

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And also when I left the kingdom, my husband at the time, I think he already had a drug

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addiction before, but it was hiding it from us.

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But that came out full bloom after leaving the kingdom.

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So addiction is in the book a lot.

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Where would you like to start?

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Do you want to start with your experience in the kingdom or with the book?

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Yeah, I think that's a good place to start.

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I do want to say though, before I tell the story of how the kingdom came about, that

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my mother, I believe, was coming from a very wounded place in starting the kingdom.

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She came from a loveless home.

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Her parents stayed together and in fact they stayed together until my grandfather died

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when he was fairly young and then my grandmother died when she was in her eighties, but they

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never divorced, but they didn't have the same bedroom.

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They didn't spend time together.

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There was not laughing and having fun and hugging and kissing and things like that.

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And my mother also was exposed to things like molestation, sexual assault.

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And I would say that there was emotional and psychological neglect that she experienced.

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And there was also some physical abuse that went on in the home.

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That was not the largest part of her trauma, but that was definitely part of it.

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She also became a teen bride and a teen mom.

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So she really never had the opportunity to mature in the way that she needed to, to develop

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the skills that were necessary to live in the world productively and to be an effective

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mother.

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And she was divorced very early on as well.

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So my father left when I was just a baby and then he was never involved in my sister and

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my life.

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So the cards were stacked against her.

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Let's put it that way.

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Now, I know that there are people who have lives like my mother and don't go on to start

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cults and abuse people and exploit people and things like that.

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But people who have a sensitive nervous system, which I would say my mother has, are much

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more vulnerable to developing some mental health disorders or addictions or going in

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a direction that she went.

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So I wanted to put that out there first.

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So my life as a child, a young child, was chaotic.

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We moved a lot.

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My mother worked very hard, sometimes working two jobs to support my sister and I.

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And there wasn't a father figure.

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So she was on her own.

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So there was poverty.

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So things were chaotic and not stable, but my mother was a pretty good mother.

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She was okay.

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There were things that maybe she could have done differently, but it wasn't terrible.

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But then we moved to California when I was six years old.

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And my mother coming from a coal mining town, very naive, found herself entangled in a relationship

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with a man who was violent and abusive.

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And that went on for two years.

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And I believe that her childhood, the way it was, and then that two-year period where

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she was essentially a domestic violence victim.

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And then we escaped that, and we were in Los Angeles, and then we escaped one day when

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my mom just said, you know, I've saved enough money.

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She'd been secretly saving money from tips.

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And he was gone that day.

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And so there was an opportunity for us to leave.

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So I believe that that deteriorated her emotional and mental state even more during those two

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years.

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But that really shifted everything for us.

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After moving to Sacramento, it didn't take long before she encountered another man.

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Now, this man was not physically abusive, but I believe that he exploited her vulnerability

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and her need for connection and her need to belong.

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And he convinced her that there was a special calling from God.

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And so my mother then started street preaching and, you know, and reading the Bible a lot.

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There were more restrictions on my sister and I, you know, we didn't really know what

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was happening.

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And at first she was attached to a church, a Pentecostal church.

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And so we started going to church three nights a week.

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So we would go on Wednesday nights, Saturday nights, and Sunday nights, or Sunday mornings,

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rather, which was a big change for us because while my mother always had, you know, said

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she had a connection to God, to Jesus, she wasn't a big churchgoer.

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And a lot of that was because she was a server, we called them waitresses back then, on Saturday

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nights and, you know, Sunday mornings, she was sleeping in because she worked so late

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on Saturday nights.

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So sometimes she would send my sister and I to Sunday school with a little bit of tithe,

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but she rarely was able to make it to church.

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But she always felt, you know, talked about loving Jesus and always talked about feeling

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connected to God.

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But this man that she got involved with really, really changed everything.

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She started to believe things that the world was going to end in three and a half years,

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as spoken of in Revelation, in the Bible.

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And eventually she left that church, had a falling out with the minister, and then eventually

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had a falling out with that man and started her own organization.

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My mother would never call this thing that she did a cult.

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She would never say that it was that, but it was everything, everything a cult is, was

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what I experienced and the people in it.

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So then she believed that it was her charge to save as many souls as possible before the

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end of times came.

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And at first I didn't believe all of this.

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At first I was very resistant to it.

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I was a pretty headstrong little girl.

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You know, this was all going on when I was around 11 years old.

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And I was pretty headstrong and pretty sassy.

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And, you know, I had a lot of friends and really loved school and I was very active.

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I played outside a lot.

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I have to say, though, my sister was not that way.

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She was very, she was a loner.

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She stayed inside.

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She didn't really, you know, wasn't very active.

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She read a lot of books and was more pensive type of person, more, you know, cynical and,

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you know, more negative.

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And even with all that went on in my childhood, I was able to kind of keep a pretty positive

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outlook on life until this all happened.

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Then eventually my mother decided since the end of the world is coming, there's no need

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for school.

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So she pulled my sister and I out of school.

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And then that's when things really ramped up.

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And so we started traveling around and we would go out, she would send her converts

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out into the streets and we would try to bring people home.

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You know, it's called testifying to them.

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Anybody who's religious will know what that word means.

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When you testify to someone, that means that you're telling them that your story of your

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savior story and how you became a born again Christian and then in hopes of them wanting

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to do the same.

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And so, and when people would hear my mother's message, they would get hooked.

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She was very charismatic.

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The first few times people would hear her preach, it was, you know, love and positivity.

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And she sold, well, the price of coming in and giving up everything, your reward was

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eternal life.

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That's what she was offering.

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You know, you get saved, you're going to have eternal life.

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She was very big on eternal life.

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But if you don't get saved, you're going to go to the lake of fire for eternity, where

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there's burning and gnashing of teeth.

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And you know, that being told to a 12 year old was terrifying.

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So that was what eventually got me to believe everything and buy everything hook, line and

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sinker.

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You know, the idea was, I thought, well, what do I have to lose if I believe?

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If I don't believe, if I don't believe and it's true, I could spend eternity in the lake

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of fire.

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I had nightmares.

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I had vivid flashes of the lake of fire, you know, people flailing around, burning alive,

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you know, things like that.

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You know, I would have nightmares about not taking the, I wouldn't take the 666 mark and

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I'm, you know, going around with no food and water and, you know, trying to survive in

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this apocalyptic world that was, you know, kind of a midpoint before the world completely

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exploded.

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That's what I believed was going to happen.

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So and then also once she pulled my sister and I out of school, we were very isolated.

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We didn't see other children.

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We didn't, you know, see teachers or other people.

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What we did was we worked.

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So there was no homeschooling.

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We didn't read books.

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I mean, the only book we read was the Bible.

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And so there was really, you know, little exposure to the world.

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So that's kind of how things began.

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Wow.

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That's incredible.

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I mean, you hear stories of people who've joined cults.

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It's very rare to hear a story about someone whose parent started one.

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Yes, I know.

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That is very unusual.

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You know, for a long time, I did not talk about my childhood for decades, really.

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And when I did finally start talking about it, people, you know, my friends would say,

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that's crazy.

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Come on.

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That didn't happen.

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Really?

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Especially people who met my mom, because they would meet her and they couldn't make

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the connection.

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How could this person be the person you're talking about from your childhood?

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Because again, you know, she didn't lose her charisma after the cult ended.

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And I'm not really spoiling anything by saying the cult ended, you know, for those who want

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to read the book.

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You know, it collapsed, you know, very quickly after I left.

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Now, you talked about recruitment, and how your mother would use fear as like a luring

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tactic.

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And for those listening who are like, I could never fall for that.

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I could never fall for that, or be susceptible to that.

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Is there a certain type of individual that are individuals that are sought out?

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Or is it just...

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There are.

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But you are right in what you're hinting here that anyone can fall for a cult, anybody.

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So I know a lot of people think, oh, no, no way.

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You know, I mean, what you just described, I would never fall for that.

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You know, I don't believe in the lake of fire.

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I don't, you know, believe that would happen.

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But it's systematic.

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It's not like, you know, someone comes in and all of a sudden, you know, they're, you

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know, told, hey, you know, you need to come and, you know, join our group and give up

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everything.

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Otherwise, you're going to go to the lake of fire, people would turn around and walk

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out.

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Right.

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No, it's systematic.

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It's all of the good stuff first.

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And it's giving them a sense of belonging, giving them a sense of community, giving them,

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you know, feelings that maybe they never experienced before.

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And so, but you are correct in your observation that there is a certain profile.

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But that profile can exist in any population.

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So the profile is very simple.

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It's just anyone who feels a little bit lost.

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Anyone who hasn't attached yet to something, anyone who feels misunderstood.

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Or maybe they, now he's in my lap, anyone who has been searching for something.

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And my mother, of course, you know, you can't really diagnose family members, but I am pretty

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confident in saying that my mother has narcissistic personality disorder.

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And people who are narcissists have the ability to suss out people who they can exploit.

236
00:17:16,219 --> 00:17:20,500
They're very attuned to others.

237
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:28,800
And my mother was very good at discovering people who seemed lost or who were searching.

238
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,500
Your mother had to be very smart to organize all this.

239
00:17:33,540 --> 00:17:41,260
I mean, diagnosis aside, I mean, you have to be very calculated in a lot of ways.

240
00:17:41,260 --> 00:17:42,260
Yes.

241
00:17:42,260 --> 00:17:46,619
Because if it's too chaotic, people are just going to be like, whoa.

242
00:17:46,619 --> 00:17:52,140
So it has to have some sort of, like, how did she establish like an organization or

243
00:17:52,140 --> 00:17:53,140
the rules?

244
00:17:53,140 --> 00:17:57,579
Well, it all came from her.

245
00:17:57,579 --> 00:18:05,339
And I should say, though, that it never grew to the size that she had hoped.

246
00:18:05,339 --> 00:18:10,939
And there were people who went, whoa, and would get out.

247
00:18:10,939 --> 00:18:13,319
But it usually wasn't right away.

248
00:18:13,319 --> 00:18:21,300
It was usually later after she pushed them and maybe they pushed back and there was maybe

249
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:27,300
some conflict or some argument or some doubting that they would have.

250
00:18:27,300 --> 00:18:31,660
And they would leave or she would kick them out.

251
00:18:31,660 --> 00:18:36,180
If people were not compliant for a period of time and she didn't think that they were

252
00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:42,780
going to be able to be compliant, she would kick them out.

253
00:18:42,780 --> 00:18:49,099
And so as her daughter, I never saw myself as immune to being kicked out.

254
00:18:49,099 --> 00:18:57,260
So that was a fear tactic that I don't even know if she realized that that was a fear

255
00:18:58,219 --> 00:19:05,099
tactic that was effective on me was I feared being kicked out.

256
00:19:05,099 --> 00:19:07,060
And there was also punishments.

257
00:19:07,060 --> 00:19:14,819
So one particular convert was exiled to sleep in the garage for a week because he was not

258
00:19:14,819 --> 00:19:17,500
compliant.

259
00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:21,219
People were forced to isolate fast.

260
00:19:21,219 --> 00:19:26,300
At one point, there were even what my mom called stripes, which is where we were hit

261
00:19:26,339 --> 00:19:27,339
with a belt.

262
00:19:28,260 --> 00:19:34,780
So so there were there were things and and but the biggest fear that I carried and I

263
00:19:34,780 --> 00:19:41,099
think most of the people who came into the organization was being in the hot seat in

264
00:19:41,099 --> 00:19:45,260
the circle. So my mother would say, we got to get together.

265
00:19:45,260 --> 00:19:47,099
Somebody is backslidden.

266
00:19:47,099 --> 00:19:52,380
So backslidden for your listeners, if they're not religious, means you've given in to the

267
00:19:52,380 --> 00:19:54,579
devil. You've sinned in some way.

268
00:19:54,579 --> 00:19:56,219
You've had some transgression.

269
00:19:56,699 --> 00:20:03,859
And so my mother convinced us that she could read minds and that she could feel sins in

270
00:20:03,859 --> 00:20:09,420
her body. So when she would have pain in her back or pain in her legs and she had chronic

271
00:20:09,420 --> 00:20:13,699
pain her whole life, she would attribute that to someone being backslidden.

272
00:20:14,020 --> 00:20:16,260
And so then she would call the group together.

273
00:20:16,540 --> 00:20:19,859
And the idea was you call the group together.

274
00:20:19,939 --> 00:20:24,619
She would say somebody's backslidden and it's time for someone to confess.

275
00:20:25,180 --> 00:20:30,739
And so sometimes we would be in that circle for hours into the wee hours of the morning

276
00:20:31,140 --> 00:20:33,099
until somebody would finally confess.

277
00:20:33,459 --> 00:20:38,660
And so and I think that there were a lot of people who took one for the team that they

278
00:20:38,660 --> 00:20:42,260
would admit to something that my mother was accusing them of just because they wanted to

279
00:20:42,260 --> 00:20:46,819
go to bed, you know, just because they wanted the night to end kind of thing.

280
00:20:47,099 --> 00:20:55,579
And so so, yeah, so those kinds of fear tactics were very, very effective for some of

281
00:20:55,579 --> 00:21:01,739
us. For the majority, eventually there would be a tipping point and either they would be

282
00:21:01,739 --> 00:21:03,819
kicked out or they would leave on their own volition.

283
00:21:04,420 --> 00:21:05,900
And at one point.

284
00:21:07,540 --> 00:21:15,140
So so the looking for for new converts only went on for about four years, and then I

285
00:21:15,140 --> 00:21:20,140
think it was through my mom's own frustration of the thing not growing to the size she

286
00:21:20,140 --> 00:21:24,420
wanted it to. And people, you know, kind of a revolving door, I think, out of her own

287
00:21:24,420 --> 00:21:32,500
frustration and her own need to, how should I say, be worldly again.

288
00:21:33,660 --> 00:21:39,500
She decided that there were no more souls to save and that we were just supposed to

289
00:21:39,780 --> 00:21:46,420
hunker down and wait for Jesus's return and for that for the end of times to come and

290
00:21:46,420 --> 00:21:49,140
that the three and a half years had came and went, obviously.

291
00:21:49,619 --> 00:21:54,300
And, you know, she told us that he was going to come in like a thief in the night and we

292
00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:59,540
had to be prepared. We had to be perfect every waking moment, pure and perfect.

293
00:22:01,219 --> 00:22:05,780
Wow. How did how big did the group get?

294
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:12,020
Was it, you know, that's a that's a really interesting question because it it was in

295
00:22:12,020 --> 00:22:13,739
influx all the time.

296
00:22:14,380 --> 00:22:21,020
So, like I said, it was like a revolving door, you know, during that four years when she

297
00:22:21,020 --> 00:22:25,619
was very active in seeking converts, there were just people coming in and out all the

298
00:22:25,619 --> 00:22:33,060
time. You know, I would say probably the largest it ever was is maybe 20.

299
00:22:34,060 --> 00:22:40,020
But if if I I've never really thought about what the total number was for all the years

300
00:22:40,020 --> 00:22:45,420
that went on because it went on for 10 years, the four years active and then six years

301
00:22:45,420 --> 00:22:51,540
where it was, you know, when she made this decision, there were no more souls to save.

302
00:22:51,739 --> 00:22:58,660
She told us that in addition to waiting for the second coming and the end of times, we

303
00:22:58,660 --> 00:23:01,859
were supposed to find mates and produce offspring.

304
00:23:02,579 --> 00:23:04,099
And so and we all did that.

305
00:23:04,459 --> 00:23:09,420
And so it was so eventually the group was just family.

306
00:23:09,420 --> 00:23:12,060
And that's why I call it surviving the family kingdom.

307
00:23:12,339 --> 00:23:13,420
So it was just family.

308
00:23:13,420 --> 00:23:20,260
So it was myself, my husband, our children, my sister, her husband, their children, my

309
00:23:20,260 --> 00:23:21,660
uncle and his wife.

310
00:23:21,660 --> 00:23:23,939
And they were never never able to have children.

311
00:23:24,099 --> 00:23:27,060
And then my mother and then my mother actually married.

312
00:23:27,979 --> 00:23:29,660
And but he was in and out.

313
00:23:29,660 --> 00:23:31,140
He was like a revolving door, too.

314
00:23:31,140 --> 00:23:33,859
He'd leave and then he would come back and leave and he would come back.

315
00:23:34,660 --> 00:23:41,219
And so so that was the size it was for that for that other six years.

316
00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:45,739
And like I said, she never really sought out any any other converts after that.

317
00:23:46,939 --> 00:23:50,699
How did the group sustain itself like financially?

318
00:23:51,140 --> 00:23:53,500
Were there were we all worked?

319
00:23:53,699 --> 00:23:54,979
Yeah, we all worked.

320
00:23:54,979 --> 00:23:59,819
My mother has a very strong work ethic, always has.

321
00:24:00,140 --> 00:24:01,859
And so she was a very hard worker.

322
00:24:01,859 --> 00:24:05,900
And so it wasn't like she was just sitting on a throne and everybody else was working

323
00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:07,260
and she worked, too.

324
00:24:07,619 --> 00:24:09,979
So she was not one.

325
00:24:09,979 --> 00:24:15,260
But she expected everyone to work hard in in our in our group.

326
00:24:16,020 --> 00:24:20,619
And this was when the kingdom, the four years when we were seeking converts, when that

327
00:24:20,619 --> 00:24:27,099
was active and during the dormant, we'll call it that phase toward the last few years,

328
00:24:27,979 --> 00:24:29,780
everybody was expected to work hard.

329
00:24:30,020 --> 00:24:32,459
And this is featured heavily in the book.

330
00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:39,020
When we settled in Iowa and my mother said, you know, there are no more souls to save.

331
00:24:39,020 --> 00:24:42,180
We just need to stay pure and perfect and wait for his coming.

332
00:24:44,180 --> 00:24:51,420
She opened a restaurant and so to the outside world, we looked like this normal, you

333
00:24:51,420 --> 00:24:58,060
know, Midwestern, you know, hardworking family who had this this family restaurant.

334
00:24:58,619 --> 00:25:01,099
And so that was what was in the front.

335
00:25:01,540 --> 00:25:05,459
But behind the scenes was all the things that I talked about, you know, the circles, the

336
00:25:05,459 --> 00:25:11,459
being in the hot seat, the exorcisms, the, you know, the chipping away at people's

337
00:25:11,459 --> 00:25:16,739
identity, the the punishments and things like that all went on behind the scenes.

338
00:25:17,939 --> 00:25:18,900
That's incredible.

339
00:25:19,900 --> 00:25:27,060
When when when you were a child, when you're you're a psychotherapist now and knowing

340
00:25:27,060 --> 00:25:33,140
what you know now about trauma and abuse and all your education and experience.

341
00:25:34,699 --> 00:25:39,420
Like when you look back, do you even wonder like how you survived that as a child?

342
00:25:41,380 --> 00:25:43,180
Yes, yes, I do.

343
00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:49,099
You know, I use the analogy oftentimes the frog in the pot, you know, so for your

344
00:25:49,099 --> 00:25:54,459
listeners, that's when you know, when if a frog is put into a pot of cold water and

345
00:25:54,459 --> 00:25:58,859
the burners turned on, the frog will just stay in there and get used to the water as

346
00:25:58,859 --> 00:26:00,819
it gets hotter and hotter and will boil alive.

347
00:26:01,339 --> 00:26:04,900
But if you throw a frog in a boiling pot of water, it'll jump out.

348
00:26:05,739 --> 00:26:11,020
So, you know, I use the analogy that I was the frog in the pot, you know, things

349
00:26:11,099 --> 00:26:14,859
because that was all I knew because like, well, it wasn't exactly all I knew.

350
00:26:14,859 --> 00:26:16,500
There was life before the kingdom.

351
00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:18,339
So I knew what that felt like.

352
00:26:18,780 --> 00:26:23,660
And even though it was chaotic and not perfect and there was no father and there

353
00:26:23,660 --> 00:26:28,540
was poverty and moving a lot and things like that going on, you know, I felt like a

354
00:26:28,540 --> 00:26:29,660
pretty normal kid.

355
00:26:31,060 --> 00:26:33,780
Then after that, it felt very abnormal.

356
00:26:34,180 --> 00:26:37,380
But over time, that became my new normal.

357
00:26:37,819 --> 00:26:43,500
And so for a long time, I just dissociated from it even after I left the kingdom.

358
00:26:43,739 --> 00:26:47,339
And I'm not spoiling anything from the book either, because the subtitle of the

359
00:26:47,339 --> 00:26:48,540
book says I escaped.

360
00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:52,739
So and the opening chapter talks about my escape.

361
00:26:53,060 --> 00:26:58,219
So even after leaving, I dissociated from it.

362
00:26:58,219 --> 00:27:03,619
You know, I focused on raising my kids and working and trying to save my marriage and

363
00:27:03,939 --> 00:27:04,739
things like that.

364
00:27:04,739 --> 00:27:12,099
And so even though I knew that there were wrong things that happened and that there

365
00:27:12,099 --> 00:27:17,859
were horrific things that went on during that period, there was even at one point, we

366
00:27:17,859 --> 00:27:23,699
were held at gunpoint when my mother was trying to to have this one convert come with

367
00:27:23,699 --> 00:27:27,459
us. Her family showed up with guns to try to prevent that from happening.

368
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:31,819
There were there was an attempt on my mother's life.

369
00:27:31,859 --> 00:27:41,459
You know, so it was it was pretty rough stuff when I look back on it now with eyes

370
00:27:41,459 --> 00:27:47,180
wide open, not dissociated from it through the therapeutic lens that that I've developed

371
00:27:47,180 --> 00:27:49,260
in in the in the years I've been doing this work.

372
00:27:49,660 --> 00:27:53,300
Yes, I see the generational trauma.

373
00:27:53,619 --> 00:27:59,900
I see the wounds that my mother carried into my mother's life.

374
00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:06,459
I see the trauma that my mother carried into motherhood and and what led her to

375
00:28:08,979 --> 00:28:12,099
control people and the addiction.

376
00:28:12,420 --> 00:28:17,739
So that's the other thing I should say is after we settled in Iowa, we opened the

377
00:28:17,739 --> 00:28:23,260
restaurant. My mother said, you know, we're we're allowed to smoke and drink now because

378
00:28:23,260 --> 00:28:26,180
we're supposed to blend in and be worldly, blend into the world.

379
00:28:26,180 --> 00:28:32,099
She had been a smoker before she started the kingdom, but she gave that up and she

380
00:28:32,099 --> 00:28:34,099
had been a drinker, but not.

381
00:28:35,099 --> 00:28:37,739
I can't remember her drinking a ton.

382
00:28:39,540 --> 00:28:44,579
There was some drinking when my sister and I were younger, my mother would get in these

383
00:28:44,859 --> 00:28:46,180
depressive episodes.

384
00:28:46,739 --> 00:28:50,739
I didn't know it at the time, but I think there was probably drinking going on with

385
00:28:50,739 --> 00:28:53,579
that. And she would cry for hours.

386
00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:58,619
And my sister and I would comfort her and try to tell her it was going to be OK.

387
00:28:58,939 --> 00:29:06,900
She would cry about heartache from lost love, about her mother not loving her and

388
00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:12,699
things like that. And so my sister and I carried my mother's emotional wounds with us

389
00:29:12,699 --> 00:29:14,380
as well because.

390
00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:21,339
She projected those onto us, she didn't use a filter, she talked a lot about her

391
00:29:21,339 --> 00:29:26,339
childhood abuse when my my sister and I pretty much knew everything that my mom went

392
00:29:26,339 --> 00:29:29,979
through. So she didn't really use a filter or protect us from that.

393
00:29:30,420 --> 00:29:40,260
And so then after she we settled in to be worldly and just, you know, wait until the

394
00:29:40,260 --> 00:29:43,300
end of times the drinking really increased a lot.

395
00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:48,180
And oftentimes she would be drinking when we'd be in the circle.

396
00:29:48,900 --> 00:29:53,420
And the more she drank, the more intense things would get.

397
00:29:54,219 --> 00:29:57,140
And and like I said, there were exorcisms.

398
00:29:57,140 --> 00:29:58,699
There were I mean, it was.

399
00:30:00,579 --> 00:30:05,140
You know, she used kind of the approach of like what the army does, you know, someone

400
00:30:05,140 --> 00:30:09,900
comes in and it's I guess a little bit reverse of the army, you know, because in the

401
00:30:09,900 --> 00:30:12,140
army they tear them down first and then build them up.

402
00:30:12,459 --> 00:30:16,979
So she would build them up and then tear them down and then build them up again.

403
00:30:17,819 --> 00:30:21,339
And so in the circle, oftentimes people were torn down.

404
00:30:21,339 --> 00:30:22,540
They were ridiculed.

405
00:30:22,540 --> 00:30:29,500
They were they were any any tactic used necessary, my mother believed, to get them to

406
00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:38,619
repent. So when I think about all of those things now, I see the trauma that I was

407
00:30:38,619 --> 00:30:43,300
exposed to, the cortisol surges that I was exposed to.

408
00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:46,780
So when things would go on that I knew were wrong.

409
00:30:47,060 --> 00:30:53,500
So, for example, if it was an exorcism on a child, there would be spanking over and

410
00:30:53,500 --> 00:31:00,579
over and over and over for hours to the point that these children would be black and

411
00:31:00,579 --> 00:31:02,500
blue every single day.

412
00:31:03,979 --> 00:31:10,099
And I would be sitting there as a child witnessing this, wanting to leap out of my

413
00:31:10,140 --> 00:31:15,859
chair and grab the baby and save them, run out of the house.

414
00:31:15,900 --> 00:31:17,540
But I couldn't do that.

415
00:31:18,300 --> 00:31:20,859
So I would sit there with these cortisol surges.

416
00:31:20,859 --> 00:31:23,300
And for your listeners, cortisol is the stress hormone.

417
00:31:23,579 --> 00:31:31,180
That's the hormone that we emit when there's danger, when there's, you know, any

418
00:31:31,180 --> 00:31:33,219
stressful situations, that type of thing.

419
00:31:33,540 --> 00:31:35,619
You know, my heart would be pounding out of my chest.

420
00:31:35,619 --> 00:31:36,900
My face would be hot.

421
00:31:37,180 --> 00:31:41,939
You know, I would feel like I could barely sit still, but I would have to keep myself

422
00:31:41,939 --> 00:31:45,300
there and keep myself silent because of the fear that I felt.

423
00:31:45,579 --> 00:31:50,699
So when I think about all of those episodes, what that did to me, what that what that

424
00:31:50,699 --> 00:31:56,579
did to my physical body and what that did to my emotional state was profound.

425
00:31:57,219 --> 00:31:59,380
And it took years of therapy to repair that.

426
00:32:00,180 --> 00:32:05,260
I don't doubt that. I mean, as much as it seems, as much as your mother was a leader to

427
00:32:05,260 --> 00:32:10,459
the group, it's almost like you and your sister were the caretakers of her because.

428
00:32:10,939 --> 00:32:13,099
Yes, yes, we were.

429
00:32:13,180 --> 00:32:18,540
You know, when we were very young, like I said, we were exposed to her depression.

430
00:32:18,780 --> 00:32:23,060
And even after she started the King, there was a period of time where she didn't have

431
00:32:23,060 --> 00:32:28,099
these depressive episodes when she was very active in the kingdom that first four

432
00:32:28,099 --> 00:32:34,939
years. But then once I like I said, I think that this was her own frustration, her own

433
00:32:34,939 --> 00:32:39,020
disappointment that it didn't get to the point that it did.

434
00:32:39,099 --> 00:32:42,459
Also, her prophecy did not come to fruition.

435
00:32:42,459 --> 00:32:44,300
The end of the world didn't come in three and a half years.

436
00:32:44,619 --> 00:32:49,900
So there was a lot of things, I think, that collapsed around the four year mark for her.

437
00:32:50,819 --> 00:32:58,099
And then when she started getting involved romantically with people again, that's when

438
00:32:58,099 --> 00:33:01,380
the depression started again and the drinking started again.

439
00:33:01,619 --> 00:33:08,099
And so there were lots of late night phone calls with her being depressed and drunk

440
00:33:08,939 --> 00:33:14,579
because with this man that I told you she married, it was actually a man that she had a

441
00:33:14,579 --> 00:33:16,699
child with that she gave up for adoption.

442
00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:20,420
And she decided to look him up again and they reconnected and got married.

443
00:33:21,020 --> 00:33:21,979
He's passed away now.

444
00:33:23,140 --> 00:33:27,540
But there was a lot of traveling back and forth between Iowa and Pennsylvania.

445
00:33:27,739 --> 00:33:31,500
When he would leave her, she would pack up the car and go after him.

446
00:33:32,060 --> 00:33:33,260
Sometimes she'd win him back.

447
00:33:33,260 --> 00:33:34,260
Sometimes she wouldn't.

448
00:33:34,660 --> 00:33:39,699
And when she was when she was out of state, she would call back to Iowa in the middle

449
00:33:39,699 --> 00:33:42,660
of the night, collect, drunk and depressed.

450
00:33:42,939 --> 00:33:48,180
And I, as a young mother, barely getting any sleep as it was, would answer the phone and

451
00:33:48,180 --> 00:33:52,660
be on the phone with her to help comfort her when she was in that state.

452
00:33:53,140 --> 00:33:55,939
And that continued even after I escaped the kingdom.

453
00:33:55,939 --> 00:33:58,660
I was too afraid of her committing suicide.

454
00:33:58,660 --> 00:34:02,140
That was another thing that hung over me was she would say, I don't want to live.

455
00:34:02,140 --> 00:34:03,099
I just want to die.

456
00:34:03,260 --> 00:34:04,339
I want to kill myself.

457
00:34:04,780 --> 00:34:07,459
And that went on from the time I was a little girl.

458
00:34:07,699 --> 00:34:10,899
When she would get in these depressive episodes, she would cry and say she wanted to

459
00:34:10,899 --> 00:34:16,580
take her life. So I carried this immense fear that she was one day going to take her

460
00:34:16,580 --> 00:34:19,459
life and it was going to be because of something I did or didn't do.

461
00:34:19,739 --> 00:34:21,739
And then I would carry that the rest of my life.

462
00:34:22,020 --> 00:34:26,300
So I never could get to the point where I couldn't answer the phone.

463
00:34:26,419 --> 00:34:27,780
I always had to answer the phone.

464
00:34:27,780 --> 00:34:30,020
I shouldn't say never. Eventually, I did set a boundary.

465
00:34:30,020 --> 00:34:33,219
But for years and years and years, I would take those calls.

466
00:34:34,540 --> 00:34:37,860
And that's heavy because not only were you trying to rebuild your life.

467
00:34:38,780 --> 00:34:42,179
But you're still kind of entrenched in what she's going through.

468
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:43,820
Mm hmm. Yeah.

469
00:34:44,260 --> 00:34:46,500
Yeah, it was always her.

470
00:34:46,540 --> 00:34:50,939
She was never out of my life, even though I left the kingdom.

471
00:34:51,300 --> 00:34:55,780
No longer believed the things that she told me, started my own life.

472
00:34:56,979 --> 00:35:05,179
She. Wove herself into into my life in one way, shape or form for many years until I

473
00:35:05,179 --> 00:35:10,300
set boundaries. When when when you set those boundaries, what was was there a tipping

474
00:35:10,300 --> 00:35:13,139
point where it was tipping point?

475
00:35:13,379 --> 00:35:20,340
It was. I think it was cumulative.

476
00:35:20,580 --> 00:35:22,419
And that's what the tipping point was.

477
00:35:22,860 --> 00:35:29,100
You know, my my husband and I at the time, my kid's father, we live check to check.

478
00:35:29,419 --> 00:35:34,500
You know, he was a blue collar worker, you know, construction, meatpacking plant, that

479
00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:36,699
sort of thing. I was a server.

480
00:35:36,699 --> 00:35:38,139
We called him waitresses back then.

481
00:35:39,340 --> 00:35:44,820
So, you know, we you know, we were doing OK, but it was check to check.

482
00:35:45,219 --> 00:35:48,219
And my mother would call in the middle of the night, collect.

483
00:35:48,979 --> 00:35:55,020
And we'd get these huge phone bills and we'd go on payment plans with AT&T and, you

484
00:35:55,020 --> 00:35:58,939
know, start to pay them down and then she would call again and then the bill would come

485
00:35:58,939 --> 00:36:02,979
up again. And so it was pressure from my husband.

486
00:36:03,379 --> 00:36:10,739
It was, you know, the stress that it was, you know, inflicting on me.

487
00:36:11,979 --> 00:36:15,860
You know, I mean, I had three kids by the time I was twenty three.

488
00:36:16,139 --> 00:36:20,899
And so, you know, there wasn't a lot of sleep because I had a baby, you know, for many

489
00:36:20,899 --> 00:36:25,860
years there. And so, you know, it was a cumulative tipping point where I finally said,

490
00:36:25,860 --> 00:36:28,179
OK, I'm not taking these calls anymore.

491
00:36:28,580 --> 00:36:34,340
But I I didn't, you know, like change my phone number back then.

492
00:36:34,340 --> 00:36:36,739
That was how you blocked somebody was you changed your phone number.

493
00:36:36,739 --> 00:36:40,899
Right. Back then there was no other way to block anybody.

494
00:36:40,899 --> 00:36:42,219
You just had to change your phone number.

495
00:36:42,540 --> 00:36:48,060
So I I always made sure she had my phone number whenever we moved because I just feared

496
00:36:48,219 --> 00:36:49,979
her depression and suicide too much.

497
00:36:51,260 --> 00:36:53,780
That's that's heavy, too, and it must have felt.

498
00:36:55,459 --> 00:36:58,419
It must have been conflicting feelings sometimes.

499
00:36:59,139 --> 00:37:04,860
So like constantly, constantly, I felt responsible for my mother.

500
00:37:05,540 --> 00:37:09,780
Yeah, even during the kingdom years when.

501
00:37:10,820 --> 00:37:13,939
You know, I was battling doubts, you know, she would tell people she raised somebody

502
00:37:13,939 --> 00:37:17,540
from the dead, she would tell people that she'd heal the sick, she would tell people

503
00:37:17,540 --> 00:37:18,780
that she could read minds.

504
00:37:19,060 --> 00:37:20,580
I knew that stuff was not true.

505
00:37:21,020 --> 00:37:25,739
Right. But I down here, I knew that stuff was not true up here.

506
00:37:25,979 --> 00:37:30,260
I convinced myself it was true because I feared she would read my thoughts.

507
00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:34,219
She would she would sense that I'm doubting I'm going to be put in the hot seat.

508
00:37:34,419 --> 00:37:35,540
I'm going to be punished.

509
00:37:36,020 --> 00:37:42,580
So I did whatever I needed to do to reframe those thoughts, push those out, push, push,

510
00:37:42,780 --> 00:37:48,939
push the rational, rational thoughts out, you know, and and bring in the irrational

511
00:37:48,939 --> 00:37:52,580
thoughts. So it's kind of like the opposite of cognitive behavioral therapy.

512
00:37:52,860 --> 00:37:55,939
You know, so that's one of the things we do with cognitive behavioral therapy is like

513
00:37:55,939 --> 00:37:57,620
let's think about this rationally.

514
00:37:57,620 --> 00:37:59,699
Let's think about what what are the facts?

515
00:37:59,699 --> 00:38:00,820
You know, what's the reality?

516
00:38:01,699 --> 00:38:04,739
It was the reverse of that, you know, that I was doing on myself.

517
00:38:05,739 --> 00:38:13,219
So. So, yeah, I felt responsible for her even during those years, and at one point she

518
00:38:13,219 --> 00:38:21,260
made me her handmaiden and, you know, that was me, you know, washing her feet, rubbing

519
00:38:21,260 --> 00:38:28,020
her back, squeezing her pimples, you know, I mean, you know, nurturing her, taking care

520
00:38:28,020 --> 00:38:33,580
of her. And when she was drunk and out of control, that's what I did was I took care of

521
00:38:33,580 --> 00:38:40,139
her, made sure she was put to bed, you know, took care of the hoagie shop.

522
00:38:40,139 --> 00:38:44,540
That was that was the name of the restaurant, took care of the hoagie shop, you know, you

523
00:38:44,540 --> 00:38:50,620
know, did all these things for her because I felt it was my duty and my responsibility.

524
00:38:50,860 --> 00:38:55,860
And that carried on even after the kingdom that I felt responsible for her financially

525
00:38:56,620 --> 00:38:57,939
and in lots of other ways, too.

526
00:39:01,899 --> 00:39:04,780
And you were pretty young when you left the kingdom.

527
00:39:05,300 --> 00:39:06,179
I was 21.

528
00:39:06,780 --> 00:39:08,620
Yeah, and you were already a mother at that point.

529
00:39:08,659 --> 00:39:13,139
Yeah, I was I had a two year old and one on the way.

530
00:39:13,860 --> 00:39:19,939
And that's. And I mean, to put into context, you know, this didn't start when you were in

531
00:39:19,939 --> 00:39:24,020
your 20s and 30s, I mean, you were coming, you grew up this way.

532
00:39:24,659 --> 00:39:30,540
And then you escaped this this high control cult, which your mother started.

533
00:39:31,620 --> 00:39:34,419
You know, you're trying to you finally made the break.

534
00:39:35,179 --> 00:39:37,899
You're building your life, your mother, your wife.

535
00:39:38,419 --> 00:39:43,100
And even though you've made the break from the group, you know, you still feel a

536
00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:49,219
responsibility to to be there for her, to be like her cheerleader, her nurturer, her

537
00:39:49,219 --> 00:39:53,459
counselor. And that's that's a lot to carry.

538
00:39:53,659 --> 00:39:56,419
And you still haven't even unpacked everything you went through.

539
00:39:57,179 --> 00:39:58,379
Right. Yeah.

540
00:39:58,379 --> 00:40:02,659
Leaving was not it wasn't like, wow, I'm free now and life is all great.

541
00:40:03,139 --> 00:40:05,340
No, it wasn't like that at all.

542
00:40:05,340 --> 00:40:11,139
You know, soon after leaving and and my husband came with me.

543
00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:15,780
So I told him of my revelation and I told him that I was planning on leaving with or

544
00:40:15,780 --> 00:40:19,300
without him. I didn't know how I would leave without him, you know, and raise two

545
00:40:19,300 --> 00:40:26,219
kids on my own. But he he said, no, I'm you know, I only joined this because of you

546
00:40:26,219 --> 00:40:28,060
and I'm and I'm going to leave with you.

547
00:40:28,540 --> 00:40:37,139
And so but soon after we left, all of his, quote unquote, demons surfaced and he

548
00:40:37,139 --> 00:40:38,340
started going out.

549
00:40:38,620 --> 00:40:40,419
He started using hard drugs.

550
00:40:41,419 --> 00:40:48,419
And so I had another battle I had to overcome, and that was how do I how do I survive

551
00:40:48,419 --> 00:40:50,300
this marriage or do I get out of this marriage?

552
00:40:50,540 --> 00:40:55,500
I had no friends, no extended family, no immediate family.

553
00:40:55,659 --> 00:40:57,060
I was on my own.

554
00:40:57,540 --> 00:40:59,899
And so there was really nowhere to go.

555
00:40:59,899 --> 00:41:05,659
So I really had to stay in the marriage until I was financially stable enough to be able

556
00:41:05,659 --> 00:41:07,419
to get out. And I eventually did.

557
00:41:07,419 --> 00:41:08,860
And we had another child as well.

558
00:41:09,459 --> 00:41:10,939
So we had three in total.

559
00:41:12,260 --> 00:41:20,820
But, yeah, it was years of trying to determine who I was, what is my identity?

560
00:41:21,739 --> 00:41:29,260
Years of of living, you know, trying to work with just an eighth grade education and

561
00:41:29,260 --> 00:41:33,820
feeling like I'm going to be found out and discovered at any moment.

562
00:41:33,820 --> 00:41:37,540
I had that fear all the time, you know, I'd have to lie on applications that I went to

563
00:41:37,540 --> 00:41:41,620
high school, graduated high school at such and such a school, but I didn't graduate high

564
00:41:41,620 --> 00:41:49,139
school. I did get my GED when I was twenty three, but it just sat in a drawer, you know,

565
00:41:49,139 --> 00:41:51,580
because there wasn't anything I could do at that point.

566
00:41:51,580 --> 00:41:52,939
I had three kids to raise.

567
00:41:52,939 --> 00:41:56,699
And once I got divorced, that was my primary focus.

568
00:41:57,699 --> 00:42:01,379
But as you know, I mean, I did eventually go to college.

569
00:42:01,739 --> 00:42:04,979
I entered college at thirty nine years old, sitting next to nineteen and twenty year

570
00:42:05,020 --> 00:42:07,459
olds. People say, oh, you're going back to school, huh?

571
00:42:07,459 --> 00:42:09,459
I'm like, I'm starting school.

572
00:42:09,699 --> 00:42:12,419
You don't even know. You don't even know.

573
00:42:13,419 --> 00:42:14,820
Yeah, there's no back to school.

574
00:42:14,820 --> 00:42:18,419
It's like starting college for the first time as a freshman.

575
00:42:19,100 --> 00:42:25,100
Then I went on to grad school and and then two years of supervision and then eventually

576
00:42:25,100 --> 00:42:26,300
became a psychotherapist.

577
00:42:26,699 --> 00:42:31,739
But but even during those years, my mother was still woven in my life.

578
00:42:32,659 --> 00:42:42,580
So it it was decades of me working on myself, going to therapy, higher education.

579
00:42:44,540 --> 00:42:49,340
You know, marrying, I remarried and I have a wonderful husband.

580
00:42:49,340 --> 00:42:50,540
We'll be together.

581
00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:52,899
Well, married 24 years in May.

582
00:42:53,419 --> 00:42:57,659
Right. So all of it did improve.

583
00:42:57,659 --> 00:43:04,020
And I eventually did find my identity, eventually found what my belief system is.

584
00:43:04,899 --> 00:43:06,379
My values were the same.

585
00:43:06,379 --> 00:43:07,459
They never changed.

586
00:43:07,739 --> 00:43:14,020
Even during the time that this was going on, I was battling with my values because even

587
00:43:14,020 --> 00:43:17,060
as a little girl, I already had a set of values.

588
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:19,659
And some of those I attribute to my mother.

589
00:43:20,580 --> 00:43:26,580
My mother grew up in a racist family, in a racist coal mining town, tiny coal mining

590
00:43:26,580 --> 00:43:30,340
town in Pennsylvania, but she never adopted those beliefs.

591
00:43:30,939 --> 00:43:32,860
She taught my sister and I.

592
00:43:33,739 --> 00:43:37,820
She would say, you know, everybody you cut somebody, everybody believes the same.

593
00:43:38,179 --> 00:43:39,699
Everybody's the same on the inside.

594
00:43:39,699 --> 00:43:41,459
It's only skin color that's different.

595
00:43:41,899 --> 00:43:48,060
And and so, you know, and there were a number of values like that to other values like

596
00:43:48,060 --> 00:43:49,459
that, too, that my mother instilled.

597
00:43:49,459 --> 00:43:53,580
So she would give a homeless person her last dollar.

598
00:43:54,780 --> 00:43:57,500
She would take in unwed mothers to be.

599
00:43:58,060 --> 00:44:04,419
So we had, you know, sometimes we had unwed mothers living, mothers to be living with

600
00:44:04,419 --> 00:44:06,060
us for periods of time.

601
00:44:06,060 --> 00:44:08,139
My mother would help them so they could get on their feet.

602
00:44:08,379 --> 00:44:15,139
So there was already these these very, I think, solid values that were established

603
00:44:15,860 --> 00:44:18,419
before she even started the kingdom.

604
00:44:18,860 --> 00:44:22,580
Now, what happened to those values during the kingdom from my mother?

605
00:44:23,540 --> 00:44:27,100
They changed. You know, she would still give a dollar to a homeless person.

606
00:44:27,100 --> 00:44:29,860
She still was not racist or anything like that.

607
00:44:30,939 --> 00:44:35,060
But, you know, if you were going to be part of the kingdom, you were going to give up

608
00:44:35,060 --> 00:44:42,739
everything, sometimes even your spouse, always your family, because my mother saw family

609
00:44:42,739 --> 00:44:43,860
as as the enemy.

610
00:44:45,020 --> 00:44:50,580
And, you know, anything that you were affiliated with, you had to you had to sacrifice.

611
00:44:51,139 --> 00:44:56,780
And she often would tell the story of the twelve disciples when Jesus was approaching the

612
00:44:56,780 --> 00:44:59,500
disciples. He told him, follow me and leave everything.

613
00:44:59,739 --> 00:45:01,300
And they did. Yeah.

614
00:45:02,020 --> 00:45:08,379
And so the values that I have today are not that different from the values that I had

615
00:45:08,379 --> 00:45:11,659
when I was 11 years old, but I had to.

616
00:45:14,580 --> 00:45:18,540
Develop an identity based on those values, which I was never allowed to do as a child.

617
00:45:19,179 --> 00:45:22,219
Yeah, my identity was what my mom said it was supposed to be.

618
00:45:23,620 --> 00:45:29,899
Do you think when when when when either yourself or someone leaves a cult.

619
00:45:32,179 --> 00:45:36,780
That they they they cannot immediately just go into therapy, there has to be like.

620
00:45:37,739 --> 00:45:40,699
Like a wind down period, like a kind of unraveling.

621
00:45:42,500 --> 00:45:47,219
I think there probably is, you know, we'd have to do a study to see, you know, how many

622
00:45:47,219 --> 00:45:51,300
people immediately go to therapy or how many people, you know, go through an unraveling

623
00:45:51,300 --> 00:45:56,500
period. My guess is, is that there is an unraveling period for most people.

624
00:45:58,060 --> 00:46:01,580
And so for me, yeah, it was many years before I went to therapy.

625
00:46:01,739 --> 00:46:08,820
Some of it was that I was just so busy with raising my kid, you know, first of all,

626
00:46:08,820 --> 00:46:12,860
leaving the kingdom. Now I'm now I'm in this marriage that's falling apart.

627
00:46:13,100 --> 00:46:17,459
So that's where a lot of my energy was going, was, you know, trying to save the marriage

628
00:46:17,659 --> 00:46:24,260
while trying to raise my children and and keep things as as normal for them as possible.

629
00:46:24,260 --> 00:46:30,139
I protected them as much as I could from their dad's suffering.

630
00:46:30,139 --> 00:46:35,899
Their dad's substance abuse, it got harder and harder to do the older they got.

631
00:46:36,780 --> 00:46:42,500
But I think if you ask them today, were they aware of their dad's substance abuse when

632
00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:47,139
they were little kids, they would say probably no, that it became more they became more

633
00:46:47,139 --> 00:46:48,340
aware of it as they got older.

634
00:46:48,659 --> 00:46:52,419
But so, yes, I was inundated with that for many years.

635
00:46:52,820 --> 00:46:59,379
And then and then and then once I left the marriage, I was a single parent.

636
00:46:59,580 --> 00:47:01,699
And so, you know, I worked a lot.

637
00:47:02,060 --> 00:47:06,540
And just the data, if anybody's, you know, your listeners are single parents out there,

638
00:47:06,540 --> 00:47:10,939
they can relate to this, that they're just not a moment to breathe when you are a single

639
00:47:10,939 --> 00:47:17,820
parent trying to make ends meet, unless you're, you know, just financially sound already.

640
00:47:19,100 --> 00:47:26,780
So it wasn't until my kids got older and things were more stable for me financially.

641
00:47:27,139 --> 00:47:32,739
And I had a solid relationship that I decided to go to therapy.

642
00:47:32,939 --> 00:47:37,260
So it was I think of it kind of like the Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

643
00:47:37,260 --> 00:47:40,179
I don't know if you know of that or your listeners know of that.

644
00:47:41,139 --> 00:47:44,939
But if, you know, Google it and you'll see what it is.

645
00:47:45,820 --> 00:47:52,500
But it essentially the bottom, you know, it's a pyramid and at the bottom is basic needs.

646
00:47:53,060 --> 00:47:58,979
So, you know, shelter, food, security, safety, all of those kinds of things.

647
00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:05,020
And then as you go up the pyramid, there are higher and higher levels of consciousness.

648
00:48:05,340 --> 00:48:12,260
And so the very tip, I think, is something like, you know, giving back to community and,

649
00:48:12,659 --> 00:48:15,780
you know, more self-awareness, you know, things like that.

650
00:48:16,060 --> 00:48:20,580
So if you don't have that first pyramid taken, that bottom part of the pyramid taken care

651
00:48:20,580 --> 00:48:25,620
of, you're not going to get up to these higher levels of volunteering and self-reflection

652
00:48:25,620 --> 00:48:28,780
and, you know, all of those kinds of things.

653
00:48:28,899 --> 00:48:33,020
And so I was stuck in that bottom pyramid for a very, very long time.

654
00:48:33,379 --> 00:48:40,379
But as I pulled myself out of that bottom rung of the pyramid, then I was able to move up to the higher rungs.

655
00:48:40,739 --> 00:48:46,300
And then there was more awareness of to go back to your earlier question.

656
00:48:46,300 --> 00:48:51,939
There was more awareness of the profound trauma that I experienced as a child.

657
00:48:51,979 --> 00:48:55,060
And I knew I needed to attend to that.

658
00:48:56,860 --> 00:49:04,459
When you finally made the decision to sit down and write your story, and we talked like briefly before this meeting,

659
00:49:04,699 --> 00:49:11,500
how the original book was like 330,000 words, like it was something just like astronomical.

660
00:49:12,100 --> 00:49:18,419
Like what did that, what were your feelings as you're sitting down and you're like, I'm going to write this?

661
00:49:18,899 --> 00:49:20,459
Like, what was that moment like for you?

662
00:49:21,139 --> 00:49:26,780
Yeah, well, you know, I'm going to plug another book because on another podcast, someone asked me like,

663
00:49:26,780 --> 00:49:29,540
what was the moment when you said, I'm going to write a book?

664
00:49:29,979 --> 00:49:35,020
And the moment was while I was reading The Glass Castle by Jeanette Walls.

665
00:49:35,540 --> 00:49:39,739
I don't know if you've read it or your listeners have read it, but it's a phenomenal memoir.

666
00:49:40,020 --> 00:49:41,179
It was made into a movie.

667
00:49:41,179 --> 00:49:42,780
Woody Harrelson played the dad.

668
00:49:42,780 --> 00:49:46,580
I can't remember who played the who played the main character.

669
00:49:46,580 --> 00:49:52,580
But while I was reading that book, I started jotting things down in a notebook.

670
00:49:52,820 --> 00:49:54,979
Memories just started flooding in.

671
00:49:55,260 --> 00:50:02,219
Now, her book is not about a cult, but her book is about growing up in a traumatic childhood.

672
00:50:02,780 --> 00:50:07,820
And so, you know, as I'm reading all these different things she's writing about,

673
00:50:08,540 --> 00:50:11,820
these memories just started flooding back and I start jotting them down.

674
00:50:12,260 --> 00:50:18,699
And then as once I decided, you know, when I was finished with The Glass Castle, I said, you know what?

675
00:50:19,340 --> 00:50:20,219
I'm going to write a book.

676
00:50:20,379 --> 00:50:21,580
I'm going to write a memoir, too.

677
00:50:22,419 --> 00:50:26,300
And I'm going to take these memories that are coming back and I'm going to put them to paper.

678
00:50:26,300 --> 00:50:27,340
Well, the computer.

679
00:50:28,340 --> 00:50:37,020
So and then what happened was I, as I was writing, more and more memories started coming back.

680
00:50:38,540 --> 00:50:40,459
And it just it was like.

681
00:50:43,540 --> 00:50:56,219
It was it was like a vivid dream, almost, but one, you know, you've woke up in the morning before where you're like, oh, my gosh, I had this vivid dream and you can just describe it to people in all these details.

682
00:50:56,659 --> 00:51:01,580
That was the way these memories started coming, like they happened yesterday.

683
00:51:02,179 --> 00:51:05,580
It wasn't like I mean, you know, I could see expressions on faces.

684
00:51:05,580 --> 00:51:08,379
I could see, you know, I could smell things.

685
00:51:08,379 --> 00:51:10,139
I could see rooms I was in.

686
00:51:10,139 --> 00:51:17,340
You know, all of this stuff that I hadn't thought about in decades were coming back like like they happened yesterday.

687
00:51:17,820 --> 00:51:20,459
And so as I was writing the book.

688
00:51:23,100 --> 00:51:24,739
There were different stages of it.

689
00:51:25,139 --> 00:51:33,899
So that first draft, that three hundred and thirty thousand words was a roller coaster, an emotional roller coaster.

690
00:51:35,459 --> 00:51:49,100
Then, as I started making more passes and if anybody has written a book or a memoir, you know, you know, I mean, I don't even know how many drafts dozens I've had in the past eight years because I started writing this about eight years ago.

691
00:51:49,699 --> 00:51:54,659
Right. But every new draft I did, it felt more and more distant from me.

692
00:51:55,419 --> 00:52:10,979
And so in a way it was you know, we have this model called exposure and response prevention therapy that is used for like people with OCD or people with fears and things like that, where you just little by little expose yourself to that thing that you fear and eventually becomes neutralized.

693
00:52:11,340 --> 00:52:18,620
Well, that's what happened with me with writing the book was eventually all of this became neutralized now.

694
00:52:18,780 --> 00:52:24,300
And I'm not saying that this is in lieu of therapy because I was doing therapy, too.

695
00:52:24,939 --> 00:52:30,739
So during the time I was writing the book, I was also in therapy and specifically.

696
00:52:31,139 --> 00:52:39,620
Well, first, the first therapist I had, she was more of a gestalt therapist.

697
00:52:39,620 --> 00:52:41,540
So that was sort of the model she did.

698
00:52:41,820 --> 00:52:44,580
And then my second therapist, she actually ended up retiring.

699
00:52:44,739 --> 00:52:54,500
My second therapist, we did EMDR, eye movement, desensitization and reprocessing therapy, which for your listeners, if there's anyone out there who needs therapy from trauma.

700
00:52:54,739 --> 00:53:03,500
EMDR is, in my opinion, the most effective and the deepest and the fastest therapy for for trauma that you can experience.

701
00:53:03,659 --> 00:53:06,979
And I'm also an EMDR practitioner.

702
00:53:06,979 --> 00:53:10,219
So that is a therapy that I use, a model that I use with my patients.

703
00:53:10,780 --> 00:53:16,060
But so, yeah, so I was that was going on while I was writing the book.

704
00:53:16,260 --> 00:53:22,020
But like I said, every draft was like a new exposure and it eventually became neutralized.

705
00:53:22,260 --> 00:53:32,459
So now I could I can in fact, I need to do one more pass through before it launches on March 10th just to make sure that there's not any typos or anything like that.

706
00:53:32,699 --> 00:53:35,580
But as I read through it, it doesn't affect me at all.

707
00:53:35,659 --> 00:53:38,340
I don't have any reaction in my body.

708
00:53:39,179 --> 00:53:45,139
I don't have flashbacks or old feelings, but I certainly did that first pass through.

709
00:53:46,139 --> 00:53:48,659
I wonder, did you when you were.

710
00:53:49,939 --> 00:53:51,459
Did you ever receive any.

711
00:53:52,899 --> 00:53:58,100
Like kickback from people like religious people about writing this book or any.

712
00:53:58,100 --> 00:53:59,979
No, I haven't at all.

713
00:54:00,340 --> 00:54:09,179
No. You know, and I I wondered about that, you know, I wondered how how will people see this now?

714
00:54:09,179 --> 00:54:13,379
I have had some beta readers and some ARC readers.

715
00:54:13,379 --> 00:54:21,939
So ARC readers are advanced reader copy readers come back and say, I'm a religious person or I'm a godly person.

716
00:54:22,300 --> 00:54:24,820
And I'm so sorry that this happened to you.

717
00:54:25,300 --> 00:54:27,500
This was this was not godly.

718
00:54:27,500 --> 00:54:30,300
This was not holy in any way, shape or form.

719
00:54:30,620 --> 00:54:43,300
So I think, you know, the ones who've read it so far don't see it as an affront to religion or anti God or anything like that.

720
00:54:43,939 --> 00:54:50,540
They just see it as someone who exploited people in the name of God.

721
00:54:51,020 --> 00:54:57,820
So so, yeah, I have there hasn't been any thus far anyway, any kind of negative backlash.

722
00:54:58,780 --> 00:55:12,020
That must feel pretty, pretty special, you know, it does that you can tell your story and there's no kickback and there's no more, you know, you're free to speak and there was no you're wrong.

723
00:55:12,020 --> 00:55:12,820
There was no more.

724
00:55:13,419 --> 00:55:13,939
That's right.

725
00:55:14,100 --> 00:55:15,419
Yeah, no, it does.

726
00:55:15,979 --> 00:55:32,459
And I, you know, it took some years for me to be able to not feel any guilt for the distance that I have created with my mother.

727
00:55:33,459 --> 00:55:51,379
That's something I had to work out in therapy because it goes, you know, it's and people who've left cults, I'm sure, will be able to testify to this that, you know, leaving it, you know, your life kind of crumbles around you at first.

728
00:55:52,580 --> 00:55:55,979
And it takes a while to rebuild and to find yourself.

729
00:55:56,979 --> 00:56:03,340
What do you wish more people understood about the long term effects of living in a cult?

730
00:56:05,100 --> 00:56:19,659
Yeah, I think that I hope that this book does that job, you know, people who read the book gain an understanding of, you know, it's not just about leaving a cult or for people who've left abusive relationships.

731
00:56:19,739 --> 00:56:30,899
This is, I think, very familiar to them as well, that, you know, just because you leave an abusive relationship doesn't mean your life is going to be rainbows and sunshine.

732
00:56:31,260 --> 00:56:33,699
You know, oftentimes there's financial ruins.

733
00:56:33,979 --> 00:56:38,100
Oftentimes there's lack of connection with people and community.

734
00:56:38,100 --> 00:56:40,300
And all of that has to be rebuilt.

735
00:56:40,540 --> 00:56:46,500
And the self-esteem and the confidence of the person who's leaving is so low that has to be rebuilt.

736
00:56:46,979 --> 00:56:53,179
It really is a I use the phrase building my life from the ashes.

737
00:56:53,620 --> 00:56:59,820
And I think that that is, you know, a perfect phrase for it, because that's exactly what it is.

738
00:57:00,060 --> 00:57:04,899
You're not leaving with a rulebook.

739
00:57:05,219 --> 00:57:15,699
You're not leaving, you know, with all of these things in place so that now that you can you can have this wonderful life, all of those things have to be built from the ashes, from from the ground up.

740
00:57:16,219 --> 00:57:33,580
And the the isolation that cult members experience when they're in the cult, all the burned bridges that they have to mend or even start over with new people and maybe not even mend from old is profound.

741
00:57:36,580 --> 00:57:45,340
What message do you have to give somebody who's who's left a cult or a high control group like you were in?

742
00:57:46,620 --> 00:57:57,899
Dan, I hope that the book does this, but, you know, what I would say to people is there is hope you can live a vibrant.

743
00:57:58,699 --> 00:58:08,780
Joyful, rewarding life, it's going to take time, it's going to take work at rebuilding, but your freedom is worth it.

744
00:58:09,379 --> 00:58:28,379
Giving up your your life to someone else, whether it's a cult or whether it's a narcissist or, you know, domestic violence or an abusive, you know, controlling relationship, whatever it is, getting out and searching for your new life is worth it.

745
00:58:28,979 --> 00:58:44,219
It that that price that I paid by leaving the lack of security, all of the things that I that I had while I was in the cult was worth sacrificing to gain my freedom and to gain my sense of self.

746
00:58:44,739 --> 00:58:46,219
So there is hope.

747
00:58:48,219 --> 00:58:55,780
Be patient with yourself, be patient with the world, but and just keep going and you'll find yourself.

748
00:58:56,739 --> 00:59:02,500
Would you say, would it be accurate to say that you became the mother to your children that you needed?

749
00:59:04,899 --> 00:59:14,139
That is a very accurate statement, and I hope that my children feel that way, but I really set out that was a goal of mine.

750
00:59:14,219 --> 00:59:18,580
I am going to be to my children what I was not given.

751
00:59:19,580 --> 00:59:26,580
I am going to allow my children to think for themselves, express themselves, sometimes to a fault.

752
00:59:29,780 --> 00:59:33,300
If they didn't believe something that I believe, that's OK.

753
00:59:34,139 --> 00:59:39,100
I wanted them to go their own way, which was something that I was not allowed to do.

754
00:59:39,739 --> 00:59:41,659
I wanted them to be in sports.

755
00:59:41,659 --> 00:59:43,300
I wanted them to go to college.

756
00:59:43,620 --> 00:59:46,219
You know, all of the things that were denied me.

757
00:59:47,020 --> 00:59:52,060
My daughter was in dance class and, you know, they had cars when they were a teenager.

758
00:59:52,060 --> 00:59:54,459
You know, I had none of those things.

759
00:59:54,739 --> 00:59:57,260
And so, yes, absolutely.

760
00:59:58,739 --> 01:00:04,820
That must I imagine I'm picturing you kind of like when you graduate college with that moment.

761
01:00:06,020 --> 01:00:07,340
What's that felt like to you?

762
01:00:08,020 --> 01:00:09,979
It was big. It was big.

763
01:00:10,300 --> 01:00:16,780
Yeah, even going to college was extraordinary for me.

764
01:00:16,820 --> 01:00:19,260
Yeah, I miss it sometimes.

765
01:00:19,260 --> 01:00:20,820
I liked school.

766
01:00:20,820 --> 01:00:21,979
I liked college a lot.

767
01:00:22,860 --> 01:00:26,620
And and when I was a little girl, I I loved school.

768
01:00:26,620 --> 01:00:28,459
My husband just asked me the other other day.

769
01:00:28,860 --> 01:00:29,860
He loves to sleep in.

770
01:00:29,860 --> 01:00:30,860
That's like his favorite thing.

771
01:00:32,179 --> 01:00:34,979
And he had slept into like nine thirty or ten or something.

772
01:00:34,979 --> 01:00:37,300
And I was up, you know, seven or something like that.

773
01:00:37,659 --> 01:00:41,580
He said, when you were little, did you ever just want to sleep in and not go to school?

774
01:00:42,500 --> 01:00:43,739
And I thought about that for a minute.

775
01:00:43,739 --> 01:00:45,739
And I thought, no, I never did.

776
01:00:45,780 --> 01:00:46,899
I always wanted to go to school.

777
01:00:47,020 --> 01:00:47,580
I loved it.

778
01:00:49,340 --> 01:00:58,820
Did you ever I'm curious, did you ever did your mother ever give you like an apology or do you ever get, you know, no, never like that?

779
01:00:59,260 --> 01:01:00,699
No, very defensive.

780
01:01:01,219 --> 01:01:06,780
One of her favorite phrases was and probably still is, oh, it didn't hurt you.

781
01:01:08,100 --> 01:01:09,379
Look at look how you turned out.

782
01:01:11,419 --> 01:01:20,820
Yeah, so taking credit for my success, I succeeded in spite of her, not because of her.

783
01:01:21,300 --> 01:01:23,939
Right. And she's still alive today.

784
01:01:24,580 --> 01:01:33,699
She is. She's 83, not in good health, and that is largely due to her the years that she smoked and drank.

785
01:01:34,500 --> 01:01:40,060
So we're not in touch by her choice.

786
01:01:42,020 --> 01:01:44,860
Are you is it are you in touch with your sister at all?

787
01:01:45,300 --> 01:01:46,419
No, same thing.

788
01:01:46,419 --> 01:01:48,060
Not in touch by my sister's choice.

789
01:01:49,340 --> 01:02:03,620
Yeah. I think, you know, I got to say, like how you turned out, I mean, the strength that it took to get through what you went through and then to build and then have the courage and the strength

790
01:02:03,620 --> 01:02:07,739
to tell your story and we talk about so freely, like healed.

791
01:02:09,219 --> 01:02:16,260
I mean, that's a beautiful thing, and it doesn't eradicate the pain that you've been through or that you may still feel, but it's a beautiful.

792
01:02:18,219 --> 01:02:30,179
You know, years and years ago, when I started talking about my life, my friends would say, hey, if you could change, you know, if you could magically change your childhood and make it different, would you?

793
01:02:30,179 --> 01:02:31,540
I'd say, hell, yes.

794
01:02:32,379 --> 01:02:36,060
But today, when people ask me that question, I say no.

795
01:02:37,780 --> 01:02:39,260
You know, I am who I am.

796
01:02:40,580 --> 01:02:46,939
Because I went through the things I went through and I that's what led me to this career.

797
01:02:48,100 --> 01:02:58,820
I think that that's what led me to meeting my husband, and that's what led me to a lot of things into the present of who I am today and no changing my childhood would mean changing who I am.

798
01:02:59,340 --> 01:03:12,979
So, yeah, is there still a longing for mother or father for that, you know, you know, charmed childhood that I could look back on?

799
01:03:13,020 --> 01:03:13,540
Sure.

800
01:03:14,100 --> 01:03:14,620
Sure.

801
01:03:15,219 --> 01:03:21,739
But yeah, like I said, I wouldn't be who I am today if I didn't go through what I went through.

802
01:03:22,860 --> 01:03:28,219
And I think when we have talked before that there's there might even be another book from.

803
01:03:28,219 --> 01:03:29,500
Yes, yes.

804
01:03:29,500 --> 01:03:34,540
So in the writing world, what you cut from the book is called Little Darlings.

805
01:03:35,100 --> 01:03:47,300
So I don't know why that phrase started, but but my my idea is a book of essays that I will take the little darlings and form them into a book of essays.

806
01:03:47,459 --> 01:03:48,139
Yeah, at some point.

807
01:03:48,860 --> 01:03:49,620
I love that.

808
01:03:50,620 --> 01:03:52,260
I loved talking with you today.

809
01:03:52,580 --> 01:03:53,340
It was.

810
01:03:53,500 --> 01:03:54,379
I enjoyed it, too.

811
01:03:54,620 --> 01:03:56,179
It was a beautiful conversation.

812
01:03:56,860 --> 01:04:00,340
Is there anything else you want to leave us with, anything you want to say or.

813
01:04:01,659 --> 01:04:02,500
Oh, gosh.

814
01:04:04,340 --> 01:04:16,580
I guess if I would leave a message, I would just say, you know, if you are in a controlled environment, if you are in an abusive relationship, if you are in a family that you feel controlled.

815
01:04:19,020 --> 01:04:25,020
Getting out as possible, rebuilding as possible, and it won't be easy.

816
01:04:26,620 --> 01:04:30,580
There will be some hardships, but your freedom is worth it.

817
01:04:32,979 --> 01:04:35,739
And your book comes out March 10th, is that correct?

818
01:04:35,939 --> 01:04:38,820
Yes, right now it's on preorder for the e-book.

819
01:04:38,820 --> 01:04:48,699
So if you're you have any listeners who prefer to read on their Kindle or their phone or their their laptop, they can preorder it right now and it'll be released on March 10th.

820
01:04:49,020 --> 01:04:52,500
And then also on release day, the paperback will come out as well.

821
01:04:52,500 --> 01:04:54,260
So they'll be able to order both formats.

822
01:04:54,260 --> 01:04:55,179
And that's on Amazon.

823
01:04:56,540 --> 01:05:02,139
I will have hard copies available in bookstores and things like that.

824
01:05:02,139 --> 01:05:06,459
Eventually, those those will also be released on March 10th.

825
01:05:06,780 --> 01:05:15,300
But it's not like, you know, IngramSparks, that's the that's the company that you upload your book to if you want it to go to Barnes and Noble's and things like that.

826
01:05:15,459 --> 01:05:18,580
It's not like they just flood the bookstores with books.

827
01:05:19,580 --> 01:05:27,500
You know, you might have to order it from them or ask a bookstore to get it if you want to buy it through your bookstore rather than through Amazon or Barnes and Noble.

828
01:05:28,300 --> 01:05:30,899
But but, yeah, March 10th, it'll be released.

829
01:05:31,260 --> 01:05:32,219
That's right around the corner.

830
01:05:32,459 --> 01:05:33,100
It's coming up.

831
01:05:33,500 --> 01:05:33,899
Yes, it is.

832
01:05:33,899 --> 01:05:34,820
I'm excited for you.

833
01:05:35,060 --> 01:05:41,659
I have read I've read about half of the first four chapters and the cover is really I love the cover of the book.

834
01:05:42,260 --> 01:05:43,620
Happy with the cover, I think.

835
01:05:43,620 --> 01:05:45,419
And I'm going to plug Fiverr for that.

836
01:05:45,419 --> 01:05:46,780
I got my cover.

837
01:05:47,459 --> 01:05:55,699
I hired somebody from Fiverr, F-I-V-V-E-R, and it's reasonably priced and they have really good graphic designers.

838
01:05:55,699 --> 01:05:56,939
So I'm really happy with the cover.

839
01:05:57,459 --> 01:06:00,100
It's a simple cover, but I think it's a very powerful cover.

840
01:06:00,580 --> 01:06:02,139
I'm really happy with the way it turned out.

841
01:06:02,139 --> 01:06:02,500
Thank you.

842
01:06:02,739 --> 01:06:03,500
I like it.

843
01:06:04,379 --> 01:06:08,939
So I want to say a huge thank you to you for sharing your story with us today.

844
01:06:09,739 --> 01:06:17,540
I appreciate all of you tuning in and sticking with me on this journey for all show links, notes and information on today's guest.

845
01:06:17,939 --> 01:06:21,820
Visit my Podbean site at unity.podbean.com.

846
01:06:22,260 --> 01:06:26,739
You can also connect with me on X, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook.

847
01:06:27,739 --> 01:06:38,260
And if you're feeling generous and want to continue to fuel the chaos and the creativity, feel free to buy me a coffee at buymeacoffee.com

848
01:06:38,580 --> 01:06:40,300
slash cat 83.

849
01:06:40,820 --> 01:06:46,739
And I want to thank you again, Peggy, for being here with me, for sharing your story, for taking the time.

850
01:06:48,219 --> 01:06:48,860
I look forward to it.

851
01:06:48,860 --> 01:06:53,340
I don't know if I mentioned it, but they can order the book on my website as well.

852
01:06:53,340 --> 01:06:58,100
It's PeggySharr.com, P-E-G-G-Y-S-H-A-R-R.com.

853
01:06:58,620 --> 01:06:58,899
Yeah.

854
01:06:58,899 --> 01:07:04,820
Peggy, P-E-G-G-Y-S-H-A-R-R.com.

855
01:07:05,219 --> 01:07:07,179
I remember that, actually.

856
01:07:07,179 --> 01:07:13,379
I first emailed you, I put one R, and I was like, that's why I got a Cadillac.

857
01:07:13,379 --> 01:07:14,379
So it's two R's.

858
01:07:14,739 --> 01:07:15,100
Two R's.

859
01:07:15,620 --> 01:07:17,139
All that will be in the notes.

860
01:07:17,659 --> 01:07:19,899
And thank you so much.

861
01:07:20,500 --> 01:07:21,699
And thank you everyone for listening.

862
01:07:22,340 --> 01:07:24,939
And I really look forward to reading the rest of your book.

863
01:07:25,179 --> 01:07:26,179
Thank you so much.

864
01:07:26,379 --> 01:07:26,739
You bet.

865
01:07:27,060 --> 01:07:27,419
Okay.

866
01:07:27,939 --> 01:07:28,340
Take care.