A Veteran’s Story of Addiction and Grace

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Thanks for watching!

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Hi, everybody, and welcome to the Call Her Cat podcast, the show dedicated to honest

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conversations about addiction, recovery, and finding the strength to break the cycle.

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I'm your host, Cat York, and this is where we get real about the messy, complex, and

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often unspoken truth of what it means to heal.

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If you're working to redefine your story, searching for connection, or simply need to

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know you are not alone, you've come to the right place.

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My mission is to hold space for the raw, direct stories of people who have walked this path

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as we dive into the trauma, the personal battles, and the profound lessons we've learned along

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the way.

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Please note, the views expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests.

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This content is for informational and entertainment purposes only and is not intended to substitute

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professional advice.

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Please consult a qualified professional for guidance to your specific situation.

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And today, we are joined with Jack Hager.

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Jack, would you like to tell us a little bit about yourself today?

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I can do that.

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I am a 78-year-old man, as hard as it is for me to say that.

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I grew up in a military home.

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My parents were functioning alcoholics.

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I started drinking early.

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My drug of choice in junior high and high school was Coors Jack Daniels and Johnny Walker

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Red.

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Marijuana was still an unknown factor, even in the mid-60s for me.

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I graduated from high school, went in the military for four years, two years in Korea,

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two months in Germany, the rest in Vietnam.

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I'm not sure if I was an alcoholic when I graduated from high school, but certainly

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during the military, alcohol became a vital part of my life.

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And during the military, not because I was in the military, but because of the choices

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I made, I started smoking a lot of grass and popping some other things.

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But my drug of choice was beverage alcohol.

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Okay.

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And what do you think, do you think, I'm sorry, do you think, because you describe yourself

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as a stereotypical army brat from a dysfunctional family, do you think that?

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I think in some ways I was ahead of my time in the sense that my parents, and I don't

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blame my parents for my screwed up life, they contributed to it, but it wasn't their

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fault.

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I made my choices and my choices made me, but they, we, we were, dad was gone a lot

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on isolated tours.

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Mom was not only alcoholic, but a medicine chest junkie.

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I don't remember being disciplined.

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I remember being yelled at a few times, but not being disciplined because of the way life

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was.

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I moved out when I was 14 and very, very rarely saw my parents after that.

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Military life growing up as an army brat had some pluses and minuses.

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I think the pluses were I got to see a lot of the world.

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The minuses were friendships were very transitory.

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You knew you're going to be gone in a year or six months.

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So the, having a tight friend, having a tight group of friends was an unknown factor to

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me.

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That had to be hard growing up, you know, getting settled in a place, making friends,

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making connections.

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And then as soon as you get settled, you find your space and then you got to move on again.

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Yep.

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And that's why I moved out when I was 14.

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Among other reasons, my dad came back from Korea and he was transferred to Northern California

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We were in Southern California.

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I didn't want to go.

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They said, OK.

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And that was that.

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But when you're growing up in that, I think when you're growing up in any situation, that's

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normal to you and you can't really relate to the people that do have those close bonds

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and friendship or the stable roots.

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Where did you go when you were moved out so young?

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By that time, I was ripping off liquor stores, doing some other stuff.

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I had plenty of money, so I got an apartment and played the game in high school.

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For some reason, school was never academically hard for me.

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I got pretty good grades without working too hard at it.

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That might have been part of my issue that I was bored, you know, just just doing a lot

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of stealing, doing a lot of running around at the same time, not being dumb enough to

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flash my money or flash my weapon or talk to too many people about what I was doing

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on the side.

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I think if you track down most of my high school friends or associates, they would be

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shocked to know what I was doing.

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Now, do you mention that you once you broke away from your parents, that you didn't really

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have much of a relationship once that once you moved out?

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Yeah.

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You know, you can't miss what you never had.

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And we were never close.

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We were never.

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I have very few memories of doing anything together.

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Very few memories of really anything.

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In fact, the other side of 11 or 12, I have very few memories and I don't know whether

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that's part of the drugs or part of being older, what it is or or somebody protecting

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me from something that might have happened back in those days.

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To the best of my knowledge, my parents never abused me or beat me or anything like that.

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But it was it was just unique.

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It was just a different world from a lot of people.

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When you would use substances, what did what did it do for you?

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How did it like what did it what do you feel it added to your life in that moment that

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you were missing?

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Uniqueness, I guess it was just a way, not so much of escape, but just a way of going

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to a different plateau of consciousness that may sound kind of weird, but that's it was

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fun.

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I enjoyed being high.

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I enjoyed, you know, I popped LSD a couple of times.

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That scared me.

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I'm thankful for that.

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I walked away from that.

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And cocaine was very, very expensive back in those days.

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I did a couple of lines, but it was primarily weed and alcohol.

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And most of the time, you know, most of the time I was a little bit high.

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Most of the time I was floating on something and again, it was fun.

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I enjoyed it.

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I never had any, I can't remember ever having any regrets.

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What brought you back to the military after having that experience of bouncing around?

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Well, I graduated high school in 65, was given a couple of scholarships, didn't want to go

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to school.

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But at that time, Vietnam was starting to get hot and heavy.

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So I went down, I talked to my recruiter, took all the tests and he said, you're in

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the top 10%, blah, blah, blah.

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And if you enlist for four years, not only will you not go to Vietnam, you probably won't

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even go overseas.

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I fell for it.

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So I enlisted primarily to avoid going to Vietnam.

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Obviously it didn't work.

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Right.

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What was that once you realized that you were going to Vietnam?

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What was that like for you?

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By that time, I was pretty much in a frame of thought that I just didn't care.

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The two years in Korea was good duty.

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I enjoyed being there.

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In fact, it was a year long tour.

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I extended for a year.

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And then my plan was to extend until I got out, be discharged, stay in Korea, hook up

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with a Korean chick, open a bar and stay there the rest of my life.

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That was my plan, but the military wouldn't let me do it and you fill out your dream sheet

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where you want to go.

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I still didn't want to go to Vietnam.

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So I put in for Thule, Greenland, Sinop, Turkey, and I can't remember what the third place

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was because I still didn't want to go to Nam.

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Military and its never ending wisdom sent me to Germany, which is typically a three

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year tour, got to Germany and from having a mission and having freedom in Korea to being

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in Germany where the commanding officer wanted us to play soldier again, it was not a good

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situation.

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In fact, I reported to him when I got to Germany and he was at his desk and I saluted him and

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said, Sergeant Hagin reporting.

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He looked at my file and he said, you're an E5.

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And I said, yes, sir.

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And he said, you're on your first enlistment.

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I said, yes, sir.

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And he said, you don't deserve your stripes and I'm going to do everything I can to bust

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you.

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Right away I knew this wasn't going to be my favorite guy.

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Now he happened to be an African-American and I'm not saying anything racial here except

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it was 1968 and I later learned that he came up through the ranks.

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He didn't go to West Point or anything.

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He was an enlisted man.

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I do not know if he did that to me because I was white or just because he really felt

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that I didn't deserve my stripes.

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And probably at some level I didn't.

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Everybody got promoted in Korea because Korea and Vietnam are in the same operation area

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and so many guys were getting killed in Vietnam that they had to get rid of the stripes.

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So I made E5 in a ridiculous short time.

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And anyway, I knew I wasn't going to like this guy.

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So I 1049 volunteered to go to Vietnam.

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Not really because I wanted to go, but there are only two ways out of Germany, either go

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to Nam or re-enlist.

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And as we said in those days, I wouldn't re-enlist for two days for a three day pass.

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There was no way I was going to re-up.

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And again, you know, a lot of the times I was kind of floating in Never Neverland between

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the alcohol and the grass, but I could play the game.

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I did my job and did that kind of stuff.

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Never had to worry about getting court-martialed, etc.

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But going to Vietnam was at that point in my life, I was 21 years old, I knew everything

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was in Korea when they seized the Pueblo, which nobody knows about now, was in Germany

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when they invaded Czechoslovakia.

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In both instances, it showed me that the United States was not going to stand up for the military.

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And between that and some other things, I just didn't care.

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Went to Vietnam, did my thing there, and I would not want to go back, but I learned

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some stuff there.

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And when I came back from Vietnam, after being honorably discharged, I was very much in hate

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with the United States because of the debacle of Vietnam and some other issues.

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I do not hate it now, but then I did.

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So I went over to Kwajalein and the Marshall Islands, hung around there for a while, came

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back to Hawaii, hung around, met a TWA stewardess who was smuggling some stuff for some guys.

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She introduced me to the guys, moved to the left coast, and for a few years was involved

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in drugs and guns and some other stuff.

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Everybody's heard those stories.

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I had a whole lot of money, a whole lot of fun, but at the same time, and continuing

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my drinking, continuing my grass, at the same time, three o'clock in the morning, four o'clock

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in the morning, looking up in the darkness and saying, is this it?

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Is this all there is?

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And I would never let anybody know that, but the bottom line was, I was bored.

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And the more I smoked, the more I drank, the less bored I became.

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Now, your story eventually leads you to being incarcerated.

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Yep.

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December of 1973, I was arrested in Texas, and later we found out that I was snitchworking

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with us.

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They had our phones tapped.

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They being the state of Oregon, the state of California, a joint interagency narcotics

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thing.

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So when I got arrested, I got arrested primarily on Oregon charges, a couple of California

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charges, a couple of Fed charges.

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I stayed in jail in Texas for four months, I guess.

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They extradited me to Oregon.

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In Oregon, after some plea bargaining, some other junk, they gave me 10 years.

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And while I was doing that time, California dropped the charges and the Feds elected not

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to prosecute, which I thought was a great idea.

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So after four years, I was paroled.

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And you know, I recognize that this is not a religious program, but I think it's important

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for people to know from where I come, when I was in jail, they found drugs in the cell,

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which is not unusual, because drugs are easier to get in the street, in jail than they are

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in the street.

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The unusual thing is they punished us.

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They took the TV set away, they took the weights away, they took the paperback Westerns

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away, they took everything out except the religious junk, which is exactly the way I

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looked at it.

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I've never been in church except for weddings and funerals.

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I always knew there had to be a something.

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I couldn't believe that, you know, nothing got in nothing and made us something.

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So I knew there had to be a first causal agent, if you will.

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But out of boredom, a couple days later, I wasn't looking for God, I wasn't looking for

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a way out.

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I was just bored.

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So I picked up a paperback book, it had the word prison in the title, and it was a story

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about a World War Two guy, World War Two alcoholic, who was in jail, a chaplain came in and introduced

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him to Jesus, led him to the Lord.

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And he later got out and started a church in San Diego that thrived.

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And I got to the end of it, I thought, interesting book, that's okay.

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But in that book, he quoted many Bible verses.

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So I figured, this guy thinks the Bible is important.

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They still hadn't given us our toys back.

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So I went over, picked up a Bible for the first time in my life, read the Bible, knew

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nothing about the Bible, didn't know 66 books, you know, written by a bunch of guys, 40 people

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over 1400 years in three different continents, three different languages.

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I just picked it up and started to read, somehow made it to the Gospels.

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And that was my introduction to Jesus Christ and who he claimed to be.

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Went all the way to Revelation, I said, cool book.

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And I remember throwing the Bible across the cell block.

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00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,039
But I couldn't get this Jesus thing out of my head.

232
00:15:24,039 --> 00:15:26,200
So I went back and read some more.

233
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:32,239
And then in late January of 1974, there was no chaplain involved.

234
00:15:32,239 --> 00:15:34,559
There was no repeat after me prayer.

235
00:15:34,559 --> 00:15:39,799
There was nothing but a desperately lost person, that'd be me, and an incredibly loving God.

236
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:47,719
And I committed my life to Christ, got saved, got born again, converted is my word of choice.

237
00:15:47,719 --> 00:15:54,200
And obviously, well, not necessarily obviously, but that did impact my worldview, impacted

238
00:15:54,200 --> 00:16:01,080
how I did my time, impacted how I acted when I got out of prison.

239
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:07,719
And in my case, from the moment I became a follower of Christ, I had no desire for drugs

240
00:16:07,719 --> 00:16:08,880
anymore.

241
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:14,880
From that moment on, I didn't want to drink, didn't want to smoke, didn't want to escape

242
00:16:14,880 --> 00:16:19,799
because I felt that I knew the truth, the truth had set me free, and I didn't need to

243
00:16:19,799 --> 00:16:21,159
escape anymore.

244
00:16:21,159 --> 00:16:26,000
I am not saying at all that that happens to everybody who comes to faith.

245
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:29,599
I have a lot of friends who still struggle with addiction.

246
00:16:29,599 --> 00:16:36,760
And you know, even after saying that, I still I try not to take medicine with alcohol, much

247
00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:38,559
less anything else.

248
00:16:38,559 --> 00:16:43,960
I do prison ministry, and I tell the guys in there, when you get out, if you need help,

249
00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,320
go ahead and call me, I'll do anything I can to help you.

250
00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:50,640
But if you call me from a bar, you're gonna have to crawl your sorry butt out of that

251
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,140
bar because I'm not going in there, because I know I'm one drink from the sewer.

252
00:16:55,140 --> 00:16:58,039
And so I guard myself, I stay away from that.

253
00:16:58,039 --> 00:17:01,640
And even some other Christians say, well, now you're a new a new person in Christ, you

254
00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,080
don't have to worry about that.

255
00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,800
No, I'm still trapped in this earth suit.

256
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:11,319
And I don't think alcoholism is something you outgrow or get away from.

257
00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:15,800
And I've had people say you're paranoid about that, Jack, and yeah, kind of, I don't want

258
00:17:15,800 --> 00:17:16,800
to go back there.

259
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:22,479
I don't want to go back to that helplessness of even, you may not know it while you're

260
00:17:22,479 --> 00:17:24,280
going through the addiction.

261
00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:27,160
But the bottom line is I was helpless without alcohol.

262
00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:28,800
I was helpless without smoking.

263
00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,719
I'm not sure I was physically addicted to marijuana, but I was definitely mentally addicted

264
00:17:33,719 --> 00:17:34,719
to it.

265
00:17:34,719 --> 00:17:37,920
But I was physically addicted to alcohol.

266
00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:45,479
Now working with, working with men in prison, going back into that setting after having

267
00:17:45,479 --> 00:17:47,760
lived it yourself.

268
00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:52,000
What is it like being on the other side of that addiction?

269
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:57,800
And on the wall and going back in and seeing people like in your similar situation?

270
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:04,280
Yeah, every time I go in, and typically it was two or three times a week.

271
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:08,079
I hated going in, but then I hated to come out.

272
00:18:08,079 --> 00:18:12,119
You go in and you hear the steel doors shut behind you.

273
00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,160
There's no sound in the world like that.

274
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:15,160
No.

275
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,319
You get processed in and prison is not a cool place.

276
00:18:18,319 --> 00:18:23,000
It's a, you know, maximum security prison is not a whole lot of fun.

277
00:18:23,439 --> 00:18:28,319
To the point that I've told people that I genuinely feel this, if I was given the choice

278
00:18:28,319 --> 00:18:33,839
of going back to Vietnam or whatever war we're going to lose next, or going back to prison

279
00:18:33,839 --> 00:18:37,680
as an inmate, I'd go back to combat in a heartbeat.

280
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,479
In Vietnam, at least you had some idea who the bad guy was.

281
00:18:41,479 --> 00:18:44,680
You had some notion what might happen day to day.

282
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,680
In a prison, you have no clue.

283
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:53,439
Your life is in danger 24-7 because you can be as clean as freshly fallen snow, but somebody

284
00:18:53,439 --> 00:18:55,839
might kill you because of your race.

285
00:18:55,839 --> 00:18:58,800
Somebody might come after you for sexual favors.

286
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,000
Somebody might kill you because somebody started a rumor about you.

287
00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,880
It's just, it's not a fun place.

288
00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:11,119
And I'm grateful that I went when I was 26 after my Vietnam experience, as opposed to

289
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:16,959
being an 18-year-old kid coming into prison as fresh meat.

290
00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:19,359
Yeah, it's as close to hell as I'll ever get.

291
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:26,079
I don't imagine, I imagine the 18-year-old Jack versus the 26-year-old Jack would have

292
00:19:26,079 --> 00:19:28,160
had two very different experiences in prison.

293
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:36,479
It, you know, it's science fiction theater trying to visualize myself in that situation.

294
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:42,719
And I, you know, like most 18-year-olds, I thought I knew everything and could do anything.

295
00:19:42,719 --> 00:19:48,079
Had I got, you know, in some ways, I got busted twice when I was a kid and both times

296
00:19:48,079 --> 00:19:51,920
they basically slapped me on the wrist and said, don't you ever do this again, which

297
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:54,479
is one of the many reasons why I'm against juvenile justice.

298
00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:59,280
I wonder how my life would have been different had they locked me up for a year, et cetera.

299
00:20:00,319 --> 00:20:07,839
Instead of by not doing that, they just gave me more disregard and disrespect for authority.

300
00:20:08,479 --> 00:20:15,199
And even the Bible says, because sentence against an evil act is not executed speedily,

301
00:20:15,199 --> 00:20:17,920
the heart of man is fully set within him to do evil.

302
00:20:18,479 --> 00:20:23,760
And I think parents and other authorities need to really realize that if you make a rule,

303
00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:25,199
follow through.

304
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,719
Otherwise, you're just teaching rebellion.

305
00:20:28,719 --> 00:20:30,400
You're just enabling rebellion.

306
00:20:31,439 --> 00:20:37,040
If you're a parent and you tell your son, if you're not home at 11 o'clock tonight,

307
00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:38,800
you're going to get grounded for a week.

308
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,599
If he comes home at 11 o'clock, ground him for a week.

309
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:44,479
Let him know that actions have consequences.

310
00:20:45,199 --> 00:20:51,199
And, you know, I think that's the danger we're all born with to some degree that

311
00:20:51,199 --> 00:20:53,920
it ain't going to happen to me, whatever it is.

312
00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:55,599
You know, I'm not going to become an alcoholic.

313
00:20:56,239 --> 00:21:00,319
It's kind of like those driver's ed films where they show, at least in my high school,

314
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:06,079
back in the 60s, they'd show you films of car wrecks and intestines wrapped around telephone

315
00:21:06,079 --> 00:21:06,640
poles.

316
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:08,479
It's going to make you a safe driver.

317
00:21:08,479 --> 00:21:09,280
No, it isn't.

318
00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:10,479
Because I'm too smart for that.

319
00:21:10,479 --> 00:21:12,160
It's not going to happen to me.

320
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:13,920
The girl sleeps with her boyfriend.

321
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:14,959
I'm not going to get pregnant.

322
00:21:14,959 --> 00:21:16,079
It's not going to happen to me.

323
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,719
And yeah, it does happen to some of us.

324
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:24,319
And at that point, with or without faith, we have to decide,

325
00:21:24,319 --> 00:21:26,479
am I going to take responsibility for my life?

326
00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,000
Am I going to continue as a victim?

327
00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,119
Is my identity going to be that I'm an alcoholic or that I'm a junkie or that I'm a thief?

328
00:21:35,599 --> 00:21:41,199
Or am I going to take responsibility for my life and understand I may need a lot of help?

329
00:21:41,199 --> 00:21:43,119
I probably will need a lot of help.

330
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:46,560
But it has to start within me that I'm sick of this life.

331
00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:47,839
I don't want to do this anymore.

332
00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:53,280
And I'm thankful that there are things like AA and other things out there that men and

333
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,599
women and teenagers can go for help.

334
00:21:56,479 --> 00:22:02,959
But you've got to be humble enough, desperate enough, I guess, to recognize I need help.

335
00:22:02,959 --> 00:22:04,719
I can't whip this thing by myself.

336
00:22:06,079 --> 00:22:12,239
No, addiction is a very powerful beast at times.

337
00:22:12,239 --> 00:22:18,400
And I think it only gets stronger with all the temptation we have around us daily.

338
00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:23,439
Now, you work in schools.

339
00:22:23,439 --> 00:22:24,880
You go into schools.

340
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:25,839
Is that correct?

341
00:22:25,839 --> 00:22:26,959
I beg your pardon?

342
00:22:26,959 --> 00:22:29,040
You go into schools and you talk to students.

343
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,079
I used to, yeah.

344
00:22:30,079 --> 00:22:34,319
I haven't done it so much, but there was a seven-year period where I did school assemblies

345
00:22:34,319 --> 00:22:40,640
all the time, telling my story with the goal of teaching personal responsibility.

346
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,719
I was also able to share my faith in some ways.

347
00:22:44,719 --> 00:22:51,680
But the thing that the administrators liked is that I did stress personal responsibility,

348
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:57,439
that I did not become a alcoholic or a crook because of my parents.

349
00:22:57,439 --> 00:23:00,079
I didn't become that way because of Vietnam.

350
00:23:00,079 --> 00:23:04,719
Obviously, upbringing and surroundings contribute.

351
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:10,479
But unless and until you take responsibility for your life, you can't turn it around.

352
00:23:10,479 --> 00:23:14,640
In my mind, that's the worst thing about the prison system.

353
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:21,839
When I checked into the joint, not because I was me, but because I was 36403, like most

354
00:23:21,839 --> 00:23:24,719
prisoners, they gave me basically two weeks of tests.

355
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:32,400
They gave me the typical intelligence test, the square peg round hole test, the inkblot

356
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,599
test, all that kind of junk, interviews by psychiatrists, chaplains, et cetera.

357
00:23:37,599 --> 00:23:42,400
At the end of that time, I stood in front of the parole board and I said, Mr. Hager,

358
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:48,160
the reason why you're a dealer and a thief is because of the bad attitude you have toward

359
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,199
the United States because of your experience in Vietnam.

360
00:23:51,839 --> 00:23:52,959
What have they done?

361
00:23:52,959 --> 00:23:54,560
They just told me it's not my fault.

362
00:23:55,599 --> 00:23:58,640
They've just enabled me to live as a victim.

363
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:04,400
And I understand these people are good-hearted people who operate from a standpoint that

364
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:05,119
man is good.

365
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:10,800
Therefore, if man goes bad, they have to find out why and give it some kind of a label.

366
00:24:11,439 --> 00:24:16,160
And I think the whole system

367
00:24:16,239 --> 00:24:18,239
greeds victimhood.

368
00:24:18,239 --> 00:24:21,280
You know, I'm a victim of this, a victim of that.

369
00:24:22,239 --> 00:24:24,959
You may remember the great theologians, the eagles.

370
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,079
They had a song back in the day.

371
00:24:28,079 --> 00:24:29,439
It's not very common.

372
00:24:29,439 --> 00:24:31,280
Most people don't know about it.

373
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:33,439
But the title of the song was Get Over It.

374
00:24:34,479 --> 00:24:38,079
If you or your listeners have never heard it, YouTube it, do something.

375
00:24:38,719 --> 00:24:39,359
I just love it.

376
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,719
It's like, your mom is too skinny and your daddy's too fat.

377
00:24:42,719 --> 00:24:43,280
Get over it.

378
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,839
Your mom is too skinny and your daddy's too fat.

379
00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:46,479
Get over it.

380
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,199
I'd like to find your inner child and kick his little, get over it.

381
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,760
It's a great tune with a great message.

382
00:24:55,040 --> 00:25:00,239
So this is probably in the, I don't know, in the early 70s when that came out.

383
00:25:00,239 --> 00:25:03,760
And these guys were smart enough to realize that whoever wrote the song,

384
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:05,839
that we're a nation of victims.

385
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:13,199
That until and unless I take personal responsibility for my life,

386
00:25:13,199 --> 00:25:16,079
with or without faith, I can't turn it around.

387
00:25:16,959 --> 00:25:21,439
But once I take responsibility for my life, again, I'm going to,

388
00:25:21,439 --> 00:25:23,040
more than likely, I'm going to need help.

389
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,359
And I have to humble myself and admit I need help.

390
00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:28,959
And that's, AA says, that's the first step, I guess.

391
00:25:28,959 --> 00:25:33,280
But anybody who's listening is struggling.

392
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:34,880
If you want to get out of it, get out of it.

393
00:25:35,439 --> 00:25:37,839
Quit making excuses and find a way to get out of it.

394
00:25:38,959 --> 00:25:42,880
There was, when I first started in recovery,

395
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,280
something that somebody said to me was,

396
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:56,000
as bad as you wanted to drink, you have to want to get sober more.

397
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,599
You know, so it does come down to a choice that you have to make.

398
00:26:00,319 --> 00:26:04,479
Whether that choice is daily, meant by the minute or by the hour,

399
00:26:04,479 --> 00:26:05,839
you have to make it.

400
00:26:05,839 --> 00:26:09,199
You know, yes, faith can be a huge driving force in it.

401
00:26:09,199 --> 00:26:11,439
But again, it comes down to you have to choose it.

402
00:26:12,479 --> 00:26:14,319
You know, moment by moment.

403
00:26:14,319 --> 00:26:17,760
It's not just one pivotal point in your life where I'm going to get sober.

404
00:26:18,719 --> 00:26:19,920
You have to fight it.

405
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,319
And I think people on the other side that have never experienced that.

406
00:26:25,599 --> 00:26:27,359
I think it's like a lot of things in life.

407
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,640
Unless you've been there, you can't really understand it.

408
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,599
Doesn't matter how many books you read, how many classes you take.

409
00:26:34,479 --> 00:26:39,520
Whether it's combat or prison or addiction, because addiction is a prison.

410
00:26:40,079 --> 00:26:46,239
It is a, you've locked yourself in, but you're locked in and you need a way out.

411
00:26:46,239 --> 00:26:47,199
And it is a fight.

412
00:26:47,199 --> 00:26:51,199
It is a form of combat that I need to beat this thing.

413
00:26:51,199 --> 00:26:52,640
I need to get over this thing.

414
00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:53,920
I need to fight this thing.

415
00:26:54,719 --> 00:26:59,520
And once, I think your friend, whoever gave that advice was spot on.

416
00:27:00,079 --> 00:27:05,040
Once you decide to fight the thing, you've got to stay suited up.

417
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,199
You've got to stay in that mindset.

418
00:27:07,199 --> 00:27:11,439
You don't want to, you know, you and I both know people who have been sober three months,

419
00:27:11,439 --> 00:27:16,479
three years, 30 years, and then one slip up and they're right back in it.

420
00:27:17,439 --> 00:27:22,719
And my commanding officer in Vietnam was Colonel George S. Patton IV.

421
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,000
And his mantra was, stay alert, stay alive.

422
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:27,839
Stay alert, stay alive.

423
00:27:27,839 --> 00:27:32,000
I think that's a pretty good mantra for life in general, much less combat.

424
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:33,680
Stay alert.

425
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:41,439
Be smart enough to realize that I can't, I'm not saying every alcoholic is this way,

426
00:27:41,439 --> 00:27:43,280
but I can't be around alcohol.

427
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,239
I can't be around that temptation.

428
00:27:46,239 --> 00:27:48,959
I can't be around, would I cave to it?

429
00:27:48,959 --> 00:27:49,439
I don't know.

430
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,640
But if I'm not in that situation, I'll never find out.

431
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:54,079
And I don't ever want to find out.

432
00:27:54,719 --> 00:28:00,959
And I think people have asked me, had I not come to be a follower of Christ,

433
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:03,680
would I have gone back to crime?

434
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,040
Would I have gone back to stuff?

435
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:12,239
I think when I hit the street, I wouldn't have gone back to crime because I didn't like doing

436
00:28:12,239 --> 00:28:12,560
time.

437
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:14,239
I hated doing time.

438
00:28:14,239 --> 00:28:17,040
I can understand anybody going to prison once.

439
00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,520
I don't understand that people that go back and do life on the installment plan with a

440
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,160
sentence here and a sentence there, et cetera, and so forth.

441
00:28:24,719 --> 00:28:26,319
And of course they blame the system.

442
00:28:26,319 --> 00:28:27,680
They blame the parole officer.

443
00:28:28,319 --> 00:28:30,640
Any fool can make it on the street if they want to.

444
00:28:31,199 --> 00:28:32,479
But you have to want to.

445
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:34,959
I have to want to get sober.

446
00:28:34,959 --> 00:28:36,640
I have to want to stay on the street.

447
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,000
And the key word in that is I.

448
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,880
I have to make the decision.

449
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,239
I have to live by it.

450
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,400
I have to, again, humble myself and ask for help if I need it.

451
00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:51,920
I need to be careful where I go and careful where I don't go.

452
00:28:52,959 --> 00:28:58,160
And as you expressed, I need to love sobriety more than I love being stoned.

453
00:28:59,040 --> 00:28:59,680
Yeah.

454
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:07,839
And then I think some individuals may think, well, once you make the decision to get sober,

455
00:29:07,839 --> 00:29:12,560
once you do the steps or whatever program you follow, you know, that's it.

456
00:29:13,439 --> 00:29:14,959
And that's certainly not the case.

457
00:29:14,959 --> 00:29:20,160
As you've illustrated, you have to make choices to not be around alcohol, to not,

458
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:21,439
you know, go into bars.

459
00:29:22,959 --> 00:29:24,000
You have to make these choices.

460
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,359
And they're never easy choices.

461
00:29:25,359 --> 00:29:27,920
I don't care if it's six months in or six years in.

462
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:30,239
It's still a hard choice because as you've expressed,

463
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,119
you don't want to tempt it to see what's going to happen if you're around that alcohol.

464
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:37,380
You know.

465
00:29:38,239 --> 00:29:39,199
Can't fix stupid.

466
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:40,500
No.

467
00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:47,380
I don't mean to be harsh, but it's, you know, a lot of these guys in prison,

468
00:29:47,380 --> 00:29:53,939
a lot of people I know are alcoholics or addicted to some other type of a drug.

469
00:29:54,660 --> 00:29:56,420
And they've got every excuse in the book.

470
00:29:56,979 --> 00:30:02,339
And like when I go into prison, I'm not known for being very tactful.

471
00:30:02,339 --> 00:30:06,579
But when I go into prison, I say, hey, if you're here for the first time, let's talk.

472
00:30:06,579 --> 00:30:09,859
But if you're here for the second time, I ain't got nothing to say to you

473
00:30:09,859 --> 00:30:11,140
because you like it here.

474
00:30:11,140 --> 00:30:14,099
And they growl and they stare and they grumble.

475
00:30:14,099 --> 00:30:15,619
But that's the bottom line.

476
00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:21,699
Like I said, if you want to make it on the street, you can.

477
00:30:21,699 --> 00:30:25,859
And it's obviously tougher for a lot of people than it is for some people.

478
00:30:26,420 --> 00:30:29,219
Because in most cases, if you get out on parole,

479
00:30:29,219 --> 00:30:31,780
they tell you you cannot associate with an ex-convict.

480
00:30:33,540 --> 00:30:36,260
For a lot of people, that means I can't go to my mom's house.

481
00:30:36,260 --> 00:30:37,619
I can't go to my uncle's house.

482
00:30:37,619 --> 00:30:38,979
I can't go to my brother's house.

483
00:30:39,540 --> 00:30:42,339
And the sister is broken in many ways.

484
00:30:42,339 --> 00:30:47,219
But add to that an addiction and everything's against you.

485
00:30:47,780 --> 00:30:48,739
And it really is.

486
00:30:48,739 --> 00:30:50,339
But you don't have to be a victim of it.

487
00:30:50,339 --> 00:30:52,500
You don't have to be a product of that environment.

488
00:30:53,140 --> 00:30:54,020
You can change it.

489
00:30:54,020 --> 00:30:55,780
You got yourself into the addiction.

490
00:30:56,339 --> 00:31:01,619
You can get yourself out of it if you're willing to hate whatever the thing is.

491
00:31:02,500 --> 00:31:09,060
And like you said, desire to be sober rather than desire to be drunk or stoned.

492
00:31:10,500 --> 00:31:11,859
And it's a continual thing.

493
00:31:12,739 --> 00:31:18,260
And one thing I think people can even admit to is that addicts,

494
00:31:18,260 --> 00:31:23,300
alcoholics can be very crafty when we want to get high, when you want to get a drink.

495
00:31:24,099 --> 00:31:29,060
So it makes sense that we could funnel that energy into something more positive.

496
00:31:30,020 --> 00:31:36,819
Like rebuilding our lives, finding new community, finding Christ, whatever it may be for you,

497
00:31:36,819 --> 00:31:41,060
versus just saying, oh, it's this person's fault.

498
00:31:41,060 --> 00:31:42,660
It's that person's fault.

499
00:31:42,660 --> 00:31:43,780
That's my only option.

500
00:31:45,699 --> 00:31:50,500
And it can be hard when you're alone to have that mindset.

501
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:51,619
But what is the alternative?

502
00:31:53,219 --> 00:31:56,180
The alternative is, like you've expressed, prison.

503
00:31:56,979 --> 00:31:57,540
Death.

504
00:31:58,180 --> 00:31:59,219
Or death, yeah.

505
00:31:59,219 --> 00:31:59,780
Yeah.

506
00:31:59,780 --> 00:32:04,099
Or even worse, just lingering on for 20, 30 years with no real direction.

507
00:32:06,260 --> 00:32:11,060
And I think, like you said, it comes down to personal responsibility.

508
00:32:11,060 --> 00:32:12,900
Yes, you can have a hard childhood.

509
00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:13,619
That's fair.

510
00:32:14,660 --> 00:32:20,099
But if you let it define you for the next 60 years, what have you gained?

511
00:32:20,339 --> 00:32:21,140
What have you gained?

512
00:32:24,339 --> 00:32:30,099
I think the biggest obscenity in our country is, it's not my fault.

513
00:32:30,099 --> 00:32:31,459
It's not my fault.

514
00:32:31,459 --> 00:32:37,780
And I think well-meaning people, like the parole board, so to speak, it's not your fault, Jack.

515
00:32:37,780 --> 00:32:38,819
Vietnam did it to you.

516
00:32:40,099 --> 00:32:42,819
You just have to ignore that kind of stuff, stay away from it,

517
00:32:43,699 --> 00:32:47,619
and recognize that you are responsible for your life.

518
00:32:48,260 --> 00:32:50,979
And that life is not meant to be easy.

519
00:32:51,619 --> 00:32:53,540
And that you've screwed it up pretty much.

520
00:32:54,099 --> 00:32:58,339
And life is probably going to be harder for you, at least to some degree.

521
00:32:58,900 --> 00:33:01,219
And it may always be harder for you.

522
00:33:01,219 --> 00:33:03,459
You may always struggle with the desire.

523
00:33:03,459 --> 00:33:09,939
I have a good buddy who owned a couple head shops in Atlanta about the time I was doing my thing.

524
00:33:10,579 --> 00:33:13,540
And he became a follower of Christ about the same time I did.

525
00:33:14,180 --> 00:33:20,339
But he still, moment by moment, struggles with the desire to get high.

526
00:33:20,339 --> 00:33:23,219
In my case, it's not there.

527
00:33:23,219 --> 00:33:25,619
It doesn't make me any better or any stronger than him.

528
00:33:25,619 --> 00:33:31,219
It's just the way we're built up and the way each one of us is an individual.

529
00:33:31,219 --> 00:33:33,540
And we've got these crazy things called brains.

530
00:33:33,540 --> 00:33:38,979
And there's no one size fits all to it.

531
00:33:38,979 --> 00:33:44,579
Except in my opinion, the one size is you've got to take responsibility.

532
00:33:45,859 --> 00:33:51,939
Now, you recently, you are facing another type of battle now.

533
00:33:53,699 --> 00:33:57,140
I got diagnosed with blood cancer, multiple myeloma a couple years ago.

534
00:33:58,660 --> 00:34:00,020
It was not on my bucket list.

535
00:34:00,739 --> 00:34:03,219
And it kind of came out of the blue.

536
00:34:03,219 --> 00:34:06,099
I had my physical, I discovered an issue with my kidneys.

537
00:34:06,819 --> 00:34:10,659
And in looking at the kidney problem, they found the multiple myeloma,

538
00:34:10,659 --> 00:34:15,060
which I think was a godwink that the kidney thing led to the diagnosis.

539
00:34:15,060 --> 00:34:19,459
Because for many people, the first time they know they have multiple myeloma

540
00:34:19,459 --> 00:34:20,820
is their bones start breaking.

541
00:34:22,260 --> 00:34:27,219
So I don't, so very early, it seemed like very early in the progression,

542
00:34:27,860 --> 00:34:29,540
they started treating it.

543
00:34:29,540 --> 00:34:34,580
Right now, myeloma is classified as not curable, but treatable.

544
00:34:35,300 --> 00:34:38,820
So I've had, you know, two years of chemo, etc, and so forth.

545
00:34:39,459 --> 00:34:44,820
And, you know, right now, for me, the only real side effect is fatigue and brain fog.

546
00:34:46,340 --> 00:34:48,340
And, you know, sometimes it's hard to differentiate,

547
00:34:48,340 --> 00:34:51,139
is this the chemo or is just the fact that you're over the dirt?

548
00:34:51,139 --> 00:34:51,860
You know, I don't know.

549
00:34:51,860 --> 00:34:57,219
But if I may, just props to the VA, you know, the VA gets a lot of bad press,

550
00:34:57,219 --> 00:34:59,060
and I'm sure there are some bad VAs.

551
00:34:59,699 --> 00:35:04,899
But I'm involved with the St. Joseph VA hospital or VA clinic,

552
00:35:04,899 --> 00:35:10,100
Kansas City VA hospital, Leavenworth VA, and they have been stellar.

553
00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:12,179
They have been superb.

554
00:35:12,179 --> 00:35:17,540
I have no, not one gripe about my treatment or their explanations, etc.

555
00:35:18,260 --> 00:35:22,500
And I'm very, you know, they, the good, not the good thing, but

556
00:35:22,739 --> 00:35:27,620
they have decided that multiple myeloma and many other cancers

557
00:35:27,620 --> 00:35:32,100
can be somewhat attributable to Agent Orange that we used in Vietnam.

558
00:35:32,820 --> 00:35:36,419
And because of that, I'm not paying for any of this.

559
00:35:36,419 --> 00:35:38,419
You are, and other taxpayers are.

560
00:35:39,060 --> 00:35:43,540
I'm classified as 100% disabled, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

561
00:35:43,540 --> 00:35:45,860
But because of that, I get free treatment.

562
00:35:45,860 --> 00:35:49,300
And, you know, some of these pills are $1,400 a pop.

563
00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:54,260
So I am quite glad that it's linked to, you know, did Agent Orange cause it?

564
00:35:54,260 --> 00:35:54,820
I don't know.

565
00:35:55,699 --> 00:35:59,699
But at any rate, the VA has been very good to me, and I'm very grateful for that.

566
00:36:01,860 --> 00:36:04,979
When you received that diagnosis, what was that like for you?

567
00:36:06,179 --> 00:36:09,139
I mean, I imagine when you, when you receive something like that,

568
00:36:09,139 --> 00:36:10,979
you got to lean on your faith pretty heavy.

569
00:36:12,340 --> 00:36:16,580
Yeah, you know, it's, I was, what, 76 years old.

570
00:36:16,739 --> 00:36:20,899
I was, what, 76 years old when I got diagnosed, was,

571
00:36:20,899 --> 00:36:23,300
had been in pretty good health all my life.

572
00:36:24,020 --> 00:36:28,580
And to have this thing, and, you know, the cancer word is scary in and of itself.

573
00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:36,659
But, you know, the addiction and the addiction recovery may have contributed to this,

574
00:36:36,659 --> 00:36:40,020
and of course my faith, but I never got to the point, why me?

575
00:36:40,739 --> 00:36:42,739
I just went, you know, why not me?

576
00:36:42,739 --> 00:36:47,379
You know, it's, and I didn't blame Vietnam for it, and I didn't blame the military for it.

577
00:36:49,699 --> 00:36:50,820
Because I don't want to be a victim.

578
00:36:51,459 --> 00:36:53,860
I don't want to be a cancer, I don't want to have cancer.

579
00:36:54,500 --> 00:36:59,139
But it's part of the deal of living in broken bodies in a broken world.

580
00:36:59,699 --> 00:37:04,100
And I'd love to be healed of it, and we'll see what happens.

581
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:08,820
And it just never, you know, my faith is strong.

582
00:37:08,820 --> 00:37:11,699
It didn't affect my faith, if anything, it probably increased it.

583
00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:19,860
But it's still, you know, it's, I think caregivers suffer more than the patient.

584
00:37:19,860 --> 00:37:25,219
You know, I feel badly that, you know, my wife feels she can't go too far away in case I fall,

585
00:37:25,219 --> 00:37:28,500
or in case, you know, because of my blood thinners, etc.

586
00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:30,419
And if I bump into something, I'll bleed out.

587
00:37:30,979 --> 00:37:35,860
And I hate that, you know, and, you know, selfishly or not, I hope that someday I just

588
00:37:35,860 --> 00:37:36,739
croak.

589
00:37:36,739 --> 00:37:39,780
I don't want to do a slow fade, six months in a hospital bed.

590
00:37:40,419 --> 00:37:43,060
Not so much for me, because I probably wouldn't even know I was there.

591
00:37:43,060 --> 00:37:45,780
But for my loved ones, I don't want them to go through it.

592
00:37:46,419 --> 00:37:48,020
Not my call, not my choice.

593
00:37:48,020 --> 00:37:52,100
But I do literally pray that not today, necessarily.

594
00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:54,020
But I hope that one day I just drop.

595
00:37:54,580 --> 00:37:56,659
And I think that'd be easier on everybody.

596
00:37:58,899 --> 00:38:05,459
Now, is treatment something you're going to have to continue forever?

597
00:38:06,020 --> 00:38:06,820
Or is it?

598
00:38:06,820 --> 00:38:07,540
Okay.

599
00:38:07,620 --> 00:38:15,459
At this point, again, they've made some big strides in treating the disease and diagnosing

600
00:38:15,459 --> 00:38:16,500
the disease.

601
00:38:16,500 --> 00:38:22,020
But so far, it's still classified as not curable, but treatable.

602
00:38:22,020 --> 00:38:24,179
They don't use the word remission so much.

603
00:38:25,060 --> 00:38:32,100
But there comes a point when they, it's so slowed down that they, I can't remember the

604
00:38:32,100 --> 00:38:32,659
word they use.

605
00:38:32,659 --> 00:38:33,540
It's not remission.

606
00:38:33,540 --> 00:38:38,020
It's maybe stable or something like that.

607
00:38:38,020 --> 00:38:40,100
But then you continue with the blood test, et cetera.

608
00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:48,260
In fact, the last time I saw my cancer guy, he said, you've been on Revlimid for almost

609
00:38:48,260 --> 00:38:49,139
two years.

610
00:38:49,139 --> 00:38:55,139
And I have to tell you that Revlimid, if you continue taking it, there's a five to 10%

611
00:38:55,139 --> 00:38:57,939
that you might develop skin cancer and a couple other cancers.

612
00:38:58,580 --> 00:39:00,580
And you just need to be aware of that.

613
00:39:00,580 --> 00:39:05,379
And my basic thought as I talked to my wife was, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

614
00:39:05,379 --> 00:39:07,379
The Revlimid seems to be doing its job.

615
00:39:08,020 --> 00:39:14,500
And if I develop some other kind of cancer, I'd rather deal with the Revlimid and take

616
00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:18,659
whatever comes down the road and take it at that time instead of worrying about it.

617
00:39:19,540 --> 00:39:24,500
You know, one thing I keep saying, and I'm sure some would think simplistic, I've got

618
00:39:24,500 --> 00:39:26,100
cancer, but cancer doesn't have me.

619
00:39:27,060 --> 00:39:31,219
You know, I think you could almost say I'm an alcoholic, but alcoholism doesn't have

620
00:39:31,219 --> 00:39:31,719
me.

621
00:39:33,540 --> 00:39:38,739
Well, I think it comes down to that choice, too, like where you go back to personal responsibility.

622
00:39:39,540 --> 00:39:43,860
And if you're going to choose, because we can't choose our circumstances, but you can

623
00:39:43,860 --> 00:39:44,979
choose to be a victim.

624
00:39:46,260 --> 00:39:49,139
Right, you can choose, you know, you can choose.

625
00:39:49,699 --> 00:39:52,260
We can all have very tough stories, some more than others.

626
00:39:52,260 --> 00:39:55,379
But what do you do with it, I think is the question.

627
00:39:55,459 --> 00:39:58,659
You know, what do you do with that pain or the sorrow, that addiction?

628
00:39:58,659 --> 00:40:01,459
Do you let it consume you and drive your life?

629
00:40:01,459 --> 00:40:07,620
Or do you turn your life like you have into something more where you've reached out to

630
00:40:07,620 --> 00:40:14,820
inmates, where you're active in your faith, where you received, you know, a cancer diagnosis

631
00:40:14,820 --> 00:40:19,060
and you still look at it as, you know, I have cancer, but cancer doesn't have me.

632
00:40:19,939 --> 00:40:26,659
So I think it's a testament, like mindset is important in any circumstance, no matter

633
00:40:26,659 --> 00:40:27,379
how difficult.

634
00:40:28,979 --> 00:40:29,699
It is crucial.

635
00:40:32,260 --> 00:40:41,379
And there's a famine, I think, of personal responsibility that, again, we're a nation

636
00:40:41,379 --> 00:40:45,780
of victims and that's just not a good way to live.

637
00:40:47,219 --> 00:40:48,500
How do you think we turn that around?

638
00:40:49,939 --> 00:40:55,699
I don't know if I'm a cynic or a realist, but I think one person at a time, you know,

639
00:40:55,699 --> 00:41:02,739
you doing a show like this, maybe somebody listening, as far as a miracle cure, I don't

640
00:41:02,739 --> 00:41:03,620
think there is one.

641
00:41:04,179 --> 00:41:09,699
I think just parents and grandparents and other people influencing children, trying

642
00:41:09,699 --> 00:41:17,139
to make, trying to teach them that yes, indeed, actions have consequences and you're responsible

643
00:41:17,139 --> 00:41:17,939
for your actions.

644
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:22,500
Again, there may be contributory things, but you have to choose.

645
00:41:23,219 --> 00:41:30,820
And the good part of that is, yeah, you can choose to do stupid stuff, but you can also

646
00:41:30,820 --> 00:41:32,020
choose no more.

647
00:41:32,020 --> 00:41:33,300
I'm done with this.

648
00:41:33,300 --> 00:41:36,820
I'm going to do whatever I have to do to stay sober.

649
00:41:36,820 --> 00:41:39,540
I'm going to do whatever I have to do to stay out of prison.

650
00:41:39,540 --> 00:41:42,979
I'm going to do whatever I have to do to lose weight, whatever the thing is.

651
00:41:43,699 --> 00:41:48,179
And step one doesn't necessarily have to be taking a pill.

652
00:41:49,379 --> 00:41:54,820
No, no, it can be, in your case, and you found God in a prison cell.

653
00:41:56,419 --> 00:42:01,939
You know, and that's a, I don't imagine that was a very easy moment.

654
00:42:02,580 --> 00:42:05,620
You know, it's not like you were in a church with a bunch of other people.

655
00:42:05,620 --> 00:42:08,899
That was a very, I imagine, almost desperate moment.

656
00:42:09,620 --> 00:42:16,979
It was, you know, when I, you know, I felt not that you have to kneel to pray, but I

657
00:42:16,979 --> 00:42:19,860
felt somehow that I needed to slide and knelt down.

658
00:42:19,860 --> 00:42:24,260
There's some other guys in the cell that had some pretty creative things to say.

659
00:42:24,260 --> 00:42:27,219
Back then, I was in pretty good shape, and I said, shut up, and they shut up.

660
00:42:27,860 --> 00:42:31,939
And I talked with God and got converted, saved, born again.

661
00:42:32,260 --> 00:42:41,780
But I do tell my fellow Christians that the easiest years of my Christian life were the

662
00:42:41,780 --> 00:42:42,979
years I spent in prison.

663
00:42:44,739 --> 00:42:49,620
Even though anything you want is available behind the walls, there was more incentive

664
00:42:49,620 --> 00:42:55,780
to stay away from it because I didn't want the COs, the correction officers, making a

665
00:42:55,780 --> 00:43:01,780
notation in my file that I was running with a certain gang or that I was drinking hooch

666
00:43:01,780 --> 00:43:02,899
alcohol, et cetera.

667
00:43:03,459 --> 00:43:09,139
I wanted to stay straight, not sexually, but I wanted to stay straight because I wanted

668
00:43:09,139 --> 00:43:09,699
to get out.

669
00:43:11,860 --> 00:43:16,500
Hopefully, I wanted to not do wrong because of my commitment to Christ, but I had that

670
00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:21,379
additional impact of if I screw up, I'm going to do more time, and I want to get out of

671
00:43:21,379 --> 00:43:21,860
this place.

672
00:43:23,620 --> 00:43:29,780
And now you're approaching, what would you say, 79 years old, 80 years old?

673
00:43:30,580 --> 00:43:35,379
What is, and I think it's so cool that you're doing podcasts and you're trying to get your

674
00:43:35,379 --> 00:43:36,100
message out.

675
00:43:37,139 --> 00:43:38,979
Is there anything else in the works for you?

676
00:43:38,979 --> 00:43:40,100
Anything else you're working on?

677
00:43:42,820 --> 00:43:47,540
In fact, I did write a book a couple years ago called Captured by Grace, and it's just

678
00:43:47,540 --> 00:43:55,300
a brief flyover of my life with the hope and intent that a copy of that book would be put

679
00:43:55,300 --> 00:44:00,340
in every jail and prison and halfway house in the country, and hopefully that it would

680
00:44:00,340 --> 00:44:06,739
do for others what that book in the jail cell in Texas did for me, introduction to the faith,

681
00:44:06,739 --> 00:44:08,820
introduction to personal responsibility.

682
00:44:09,860 --> 00:44:11,699
Some people have asked me to write another book.

683
00:44:12,580 --> 00:44:20,100
I'm not sure I want to do that, and in fact, the Lord keeps opening doors to be your guest,

684
00:44:20,820 --> 00:44:28,260
and I do do some TikTok things and I do some blogging and I do some other stuff, and I'm

685
00:44:28,260 --> 00:44:34,739
trying to, quite honestly, trying to facilitate what's the best way I can use my remaining

686
00:44:34,739 --> 00:44:41,860
days, whether that's a month or 10 years, to be of help to other people, and I'm not

687
00:44:41,860 --> 00:44:48,020
sure that's writing another book, maybe going back and being more intentional with the blogging

688
00:44:50,659 --> 00:44:51,219
at this point.

689
00:44:51,219 --> 00:44:56,179
I'm really at a loss on what to do, so I just stumbled around and still involved.

690
00:44:56,179 --> 00:45:04,340
Even though I'm older than dirt, I do youth ministry, and the myeloma has affected my

691
00:45:04,340 --> 00:45:13,060
energy level, which even in my mid-70s, people would say they marvel at my energy, and it's

692
00:45:13,060 --> 00:45:21,060
not there anymore, and I spent, from 1979 on, I'd spend six or seven or eight weeks

693
00:45:21,060 --> 00:45:26,820
each summer being a camp speaker, primarily youth camps, Christian youth camps, or family

694
00:45:26,820 --> 00:45:32,899
camps, and we figured out one time that I spent four years of my life as a camp speaker,

695
00:45:33,459 --> 00:45:41,699
and it's my favorite place to minister, but that has changed because my view of camp speaking,

696
00:45:41,699 --> 00:45:48,179
the speaking part is easy, but hanging out with the kids is where ministry happens,

697
00:45:48,179 --> 00:45:55,780
where life happens, and I just don't have the 24-hour energy to hang with the kids the

698
00:45:55,780 --> 00:45:59,860
way I used to, so I think my camp speaking has come to a halt.

699
00:45:59,860 --> 00:46:06,260
I still hang around camps and do some other stuff for other people, but I don't think

700
00:46:06,260 --> 00:46:07,540
retirement is a sin.

701
00:46:07,540 --> 00:46:09,219
I don't think it's a bad thing.

702
00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:14,020
I don't want to go to Florida and play shuffleboard, though, and I've been in full-time

703
00:46:14,020 --> 00:46:19,939
ministry for 45-plus years, and why retire from something you love, and as long as I

704
00:46:19,939 --> 00:46:27,699
have the relative health and the mental capability of doing it, I want to be involved in some

705
00:46:27,699 --> 00:46:33,060
way of trying to help people, not because I have the answer, but I know who the answer

706
00:46:33,060 --> 00:46:33,560
is.

707
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:41,320
What is it, when someone comes up and says to you that your story helped them or changed

708
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,800
something in them or that they found Christ, what is that like for you?

709
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:55,639
Maybe a little tear outside or inside, maybe a little, definitely a whole lot of thank

710
00:46:55,639 --> 00:46:58,679
you, Lord, for using, you know, you could use a donkey.

711
00:46:58,679 --> 00:47:01,000
There may be some similarities between a donkey and me.

712
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:07,320
I don't know, but just, you know, thank you because someday whoever that person was

713
00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:14,360
that donated that book to the cell, they have no idea that it reached me or that as a result

714
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:23,639
of that, a whole lot of people have been reached, and I just am grateful that I have the

715
00:47:23,639 --> 00:47:26,280
opportunity to encourage people to think.

716
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:32,520
Obviously, my ultimate goal is that they come to faith in Christ, but even if they don't,

717
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,919
I want them to understand that they are unique.

718
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,719
They are irreplaceable.

719
00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:38,760
They are important.

720
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:45,479
They have the stamp of God on them, and that they don't have to be just another 20-year-old

721
00:47:45,479 --> 00:47:47,560
or just another 40-year-old.

722
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,040
They don't have to be in a job they hate.

723
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:52,360
They don't have to continue to be addicted.

724
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,159
They can turn it around, but we sound like a broken record, you and I, but it starts

725
00:47:57,159 --> 00:47:59,080
with personal responsibility.

726
00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:10,199
It starts with saying, I am the problem, and I think once I get to that point, I can begin

727
00:48:10,199 --> 00:48:16,199
at least to turn it around, and unless I get to that point, everything else is going to

728
00:48:16,199 --> 00:48:21,560
be short-term as you go to AA for a couple of meetings and then walk away from it or

729
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:30,120
some other form of help, but I think there does have to be that point in time where I

730
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:30,760
am sick of this.

731
00:48:31,479 --> 00:48:33,560
I am sick of pretending to be a victim.

732
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:34,600
I am going to be a victor.

733
00:48:35,159 --> 00:48:39,000
Whatever works for you, I am going to kick this alcoholism in the butt.

734
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,320
I am going to get away from this needle, which probably means I am going to get away from

735
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:43,959
these people.

736
00:48:44,439 --> 00:48:48,840
You know, we haven't really talked about that, but if you want to stay clean, not because

737
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:57,320
you are better than them, but you are infected and affected by your surroundings, and in

738
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:03,959
order to stay clean, your whole social life may change, probably will change, that you

739
00:49:03,959 --> 00:49:08,760
just have to, again, not that you are better than them, not that they are scumbags, but

740
00:49:09,399 --> 00:49:13,239
you want to stay clean, there is going to be a price to be paid, but it is very well

741
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:13,800
worth it.

742
00:49:14,919 --> 00:49:18,840
Well, again, it has to come down to a choice, and it doesn't mean that choice is going

743
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:19,479
to be easy.

744
00:49:20,439 --> 00:49:25,239
You know, you are going to have to move away from people, places, and things that you once

745
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:30,840
knew as your comfort zone, and you are going to have to step out of that comfort zone to

746
00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:38,360
get uncomfortable, and that could mean losing friends, could mean losing family, social

747
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:39,879
hangouts, whatever that may be.

748
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:47,479
Growth doesn't come just, it is not easy, you know, but like you said, it starts with

749
00:49:47,479 --> 00:49:47,800
a choice.

750
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:54,919
You have to have that personal responsibility, that even though you couldn't help your life's

751
00:49:54,919 --> 00:49:57,320
circumstances, you can make a choice now to change them.

752
00:49:57,959 --> 00:49:58,600
Absolutely.

753
00:49:59,959 --> 00:50:07,159
And if there is anybody listening who is struggling with addiction of any kind, or even has

754
00:50:07,159 --> 00:50:13,239
lost their faith, or is searching for faith, or is on any kind of journey towards a better

755
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,320
life, what would you say to them?

756
00:50:17,479 --> 00:50:22,280
Well, again, I probably would say to them, start where I started.

757
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:24,120
Find a Bible somewhere and read it.

758
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:28,360
Find a Bible-believing, Bible-preaching church and get involved.

759
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:36,439
If they're not ready for that, just, if you're in the process of making that decision,

760
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:43,239
if you're in the process of starting to hate your addiction, try to find at least one person

761
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:44,280
who will walk with you.

762
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:49,080
One person who will love you enough to say, hey, jerk, you can't do this anymore.

763
00:50:49,639 --> 00:50:51,239
You got to stay away from this stuff.

764
00:50:51,959 --> 00:50:59,560
And maybe those are few and far between, but, you know, this dates me, but even the

765
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:01,000
Lone Ranger had a buddy.

766
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:02,600
You can't do this stuff on your own.

767
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,520
You need somebody to walk through it.

768
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,639
You know, AA, the sponsor type thing.

769
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:17,000
Whatever you call it, you need somebody preferably who has been there, done that, and doesn't

770
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:17,800
do it anymore.

771
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,000
So it's not just an academic thing.

772
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:23,080
They know what it's like to be where you are.

773
00:51:23,639 --> 00:51:28,840
They've walked on the other side and they can come alongside you, put their arm around

774
00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:33,159
you or kick you in the butt, whatever the case is, and be there for you.

775
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,719
I think that's step one is personal responsibility.

776
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:44,120
Maybe step two is I need somebody to help me or a bunch of somebodies maybe.

777
00:51:44,199 --> 00:51:48,679
But I think, you know, the buzzword is accountability partner.

778
00:51:48,679 --> 00:51:53,800
I need somebody that I can be real with, that I can call at three o'clock in the morning

779
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:01,000
and they love me enough to not just tell me what I want to hear, but tell me what I need

780
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:01,500
to hear.

781
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,919
Yeah, because addiction is real.

782
00:52:04,919 --> 00:52:09,639
And if it's always warm and cuddly, it's not going to save your life, you know?

783
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:10,780
Yep.

784
00:52:11,340 --> 00:52:17,179
Now, I do want to ask you, do you have a particularly favorite Bible verse?

785
00:52:18,060 --> 00:52:18,780
Bible verse?

786
00:52:19,260 --> 00:52:19,760
Yeah.

787
00:52:20,139 --> 00:52:20,780
Yeah.

788
00:52:20,780 --> 00:52:22,060
Romans 15, 13.

789
00:52:22,620 --> 00:52:27,899
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power

790
00:52:27,899 --> 00:52:30,219
of the Holy Spirit, you may overflow with hope.

791
00:52:31,020 --> 00:52:37,899
And my personal, I guess, acronym for hope, he oversees people and events.

792
00:52:39,340 --> 00:52:40,060
Just hope.

793
00:52:40,139 --> 00:52:43,340
You know, we live in so much negativity.

794
00:52:43,340 --> 00:52:52,219
We live in so much stuff, you know, whether it's Ukraine or Iran or crime in the streets

795
00:52:52,219 --> 00:52:55,179
or all this stuff that you need to have a hope.

796
00:52:55,179 --> 00:52:57,020
And obviously, my hope is in Christ.

797
00:52:58,060 --> 00:53:03,979
But you need to have a hope and recognize that as long as you have a pulse, things can

798
00:53:03,979 --> 00:53:04,479
change.

799
00:53:05,199 --> 00:53:14,639
And as long as you are willing to think and inspect yourself, the Bible talks about examining

800
00:53:14,639 --> 00:53:25,760
yourself to just check yourself deeply and not love yourself in a selfish way, but just

801
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:28,159
I'm important.

802
00:53:28,719 --> 00:53:29,280
I matter.

803
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:33,840
And living in the gutter is not where I need to be, whether it's a physical gutter,

804
00:53:34,479 --> 00:53:39,600
or a situation where maybe nobody even knows you're an alcoholic.

805
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:41,360
You got that game down in your pat.

806
00:53:42,639 --> 00:53:46,479
But if you're at the point where you just don't like where you are, change it.

807
00:53:47,199 --> 00:53:49,840
And again, get over it.

808
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:53,120
You know, quit blaming other people and take responsibility.

809
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:59,280
Listen to that song and pick up a Bible and read it and get in touch with somebody like

810
00:53:59,280 --> 00:54:03,120
you or me who you maybe have a hunch.

811
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:07,199
I don't know who this clown is, but I think he's going to be legit with me.

812
00:54:07,199 --> 00:54:08,879
I think he's going to speak truth to me.

813
00:54:09,439 --> 00:54:12,639
I think he's going to be a friend.

814
00:54:13,439 --> 00:54:13,939
Yeah.

815
00:54:15,439 --> 00:54:18,479
Well, I've enjoyed this conversation with you.

816
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:24,159
You have a very powerful story from beginning to middle to where we are now.

817
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:31,199
And I would encourage anybody to I haven't checked out your book, but I'm certainly

818
00:54:31,199 --> 00:54:32,639
going to check it out.

819
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,520
Would you remind us of the title again?

820
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:38,080
Captured by Grace.

821
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:39,280
It's available at Amazon.

822
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:40,959
I think it's nine bucks, something like that.

823
00:54:42,479 --> 00:54:47,439
And my email is jack.hager, H-A-G-E-R at Gmail.

824
00:54:47,439 --> 00:54:51,520
If you have questions or arguments or anything else, feel free to get in touch with me.

825
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:52,320
It's what I do.

826
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:53,439
You won't be an intrusion.

827
00:54:54,399 --> 00:54:56,560
It'll be something I'd be glad to be involved with.

828
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,080
And if there's any way I can help, I'd like to help.

829
00:55:00,959 --> 00:55:04,080
Well, thank you, Jack, for sharing your story with us today.

830
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:05,600
Thank you, Kat.

831
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:06,399
It's been a privilege.

832
00:55:06,959 --> 00:55:14,159
For still being here, for being you.

833
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:16,159
I mean, you shared a powerful story.

834
00:55:16,159 --> 00:55:17,439
You've lived a powerful life.

835
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:21,679
And I have no doubt that you've probably touched more people than you realize.

836
00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,439
We never really know how many people we help.

837
00:55:25,439 --> 00:55:26,000
Exactly.

838
00:55:26,959 --> 00:55:30,239
You know, and so I'd like to think that this message is going to land

839
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:31,520
who it needs to land with.

840
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:34,320
I'll pray to God.

841
00:55:35,199 --> 00:55:36,639
We're going to help somebody today.

842
00:55:36,639 --> 00:55:37,280
That's my goal.

843
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:39,439
And I want to thank you.

844
00:55:39,439 --> 00:55:40,879
I want to thank everybody for listening.

845
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:46,320
All the links and the bio on Jack will be in the show notes as ways to connect with me.

846
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:50,080
Any last parting words, Jack?

847
00:55:51,199 --> 00:55:52,239
Yes, it's been a privilege.

848
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:53,199
I enjoy talking to you.

849
00:55:53,199 --> 00:55:55,120
It's always fun to talk to somebody named Kat.

850
00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:57,840
Thank you so much.

851
00:55:57,840 --> 00:55:59,120
We'll see everybody next time.

852
00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:00,639
Bye-bye.

853
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:30,639
Bye-bye.