The dark side of fentanyl with a DEA Agent

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Hi everybody, and welcome to Call Her Cat. Today I have the pleasure with speaking to Brian Townsend, a retired supervisory special agent and former resident agent in charge with the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, dedicating 28 years to law enforcement. With the DEA, Brian held leadership roles managing people, programs, and resources. His expertise helped dismantle drug trafficking organizations and safeguard communities. Currently, Brian serves as a law enforcement training coordinator for the Mid-States Organized Crime Information Center, a regional information sharing system center supporting law enforcement in nine states. He's also the founder and principal of Eagle Six Training, providing speaking, training, and consulting services to organizations worldwide. Most recently, Brian launched only 2 Milligrams Inc., where he leverages his extensive experience and knowledge in the field of drug enforcement and prevention. Brian's insights have been featured in numerous news organizations and publications, including Fox, CNN, and Forbes. Hi, Brian. Good morning.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Good morning. Hi, thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today.

SPEAKER_01 1:17

Well, thank you for being here today. So, is there anything I missed that you want to that it was very extensive?

SPEAKER_00 1:26

No, that's that's me in a nutshell, just uh just trying to do my best.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

So So how did you how did you get into law enforcement?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

What was uh Yeah, it's a strange story, and I say strange because I made the decision when I was in high school that I wanted to work in drug enforcement. So I know the follow-up question is high school, you know, why such a such a a thought process so young? And you know, I saw what drugs were doing early on in my life in my community, and and um I just wanted to be part of the solution. And quite frankly, I didn't know what that meant. You know, I when I found out what drug enforcement was and specifically the DEA, I was like, yeah, that looks pretty cool, you know. Uh pretty cool from a from a high school perspective, you know, and but also pretty cool from the uh this is how I can be part of the solution perspective. And uh, you know, quite frankly, I didn't know what that path would would would be, you know, the internet wasn't like it is now, and and uh, you know, the information, you know, in our in our pockets with the cell phones wasn't, you know, that didn't exist, you know. So just made a series of choices that uh that kept me on that path and and ultimately uh and got me to uh into law enforcement. I was a police officer in in Joplin, Missouri for about five years, and then finally I was able to get to the to the DEA and and fulfill my dream and and and it was a great career and I enjoyed every day of it.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

What was the most surprising thing you learned in your field? Either through law enforcement or the DEA?

SPEAKER_00 3:02

You know, working with people, um you have all types of people and and some care, some don't. Um you know, just dealing with people I think was a surprise. I, you know, quite frankly, and I've said this before, I I I was probably a naive kid when I when I started this career, and and uh didn't have the a lot of the struggles that I would constantly deal with in this profession. You know, I so I didn't I was coming in kind of fresh, right? You know, just with training and and just my perspective, and and uh I didn't have any real uh experience some of these just incredible uh situations I was in. And um so just just dealing with those adequately, professionally, you know, trying to understand them, wrap my head around them, do the best I can, and hopefully leave with uh, you know, knowing that I did the best I can and and and move on to the next one and work on it or use that that experience and those lessons learned to be to be better and better and better.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

What do you think are some of the biggest, most common challenges drug enforcement faces?

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Well, it's never stopping. Uh you know, I uh I always told myself every day that gosh, I wish the I wish there was no drug problem. I wish I had to find another career field. And I meant that sincerely, but I also I'm not naive, I knew that would never happen. Um the biggest challenge is that we have a society, especially in the United States, that is just hellbent on getting drugs. You know, the the demand is so high. And regardless of what we do in law enforcement, regardless of what we do in treatment, um, regardless of what we do in prevention, there are going to be people out there who want this. And it just comes down to a simple supply and demand question. Um and if there is a you know demand, there will be a supply, right? And yeah, and uh so it's just that's the constant challenge we face. We have to figure out how do we how do we reduce that demand? How do we how do we work together to um to be successful?

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Hard one. How do you how do you manage that high risk, that high stress as a human being? I mean, because you must you go home at the end of the night and you, you know, I mean Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

You know, you gotta have work life balance. You know, no one no one's ever on their deathbed saying, you know, their last words are never, I wish I would have worked more, right? Right. I mean, that would be absurd, right? And I've never heard that happening. And you gotta take care of yourself, and you just ultimately at the end of the day, it's it's it's yourself that you have to be responsible for, right? I mean, your your boss may be the greatest person in the world, but he or she's never gonna call you at 1 a.m. and say, Hey, I realize you haven't taken a vacation this year. Something you need to do, right? Right. That's that's not the call you're gonna get. So the only and they may be the greatest person you've ever worked for, but you have to take care of yourself. You have to have had that work-life balance. You know, thankfully, I was so lucky to have friend groups uh throughout my career that were not in law enforcement. And I'm not, you know, I have great friends in law enforcement to this day, you know, people I call, my brothers and my sisters, but you know, when you can when you can hang out with people who have no knowledge of what you do and they don't want to talk about it, or maybe they're interested in you know, the cool stories, the war stories. But other than that, that's pretty cool because you because you're not constantly living in that environment, right? And and and that's what you need. Sometimes you just have to, you gotta find people with a different perspective, uh, different interests, different uh, you know, different outlooks. And that's healthy. It's healthy for your brain, it's healthy for your perspective, and uh find work-life balance and and uh you know uh and that can involve hobbies, it can involve uh you know, exercise, uh yoga, what whatever. I mean, just find something that works for you and and and keep doing it.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

What do you how do you handle um like hostile situations or hobby, like argumentative situations, especially like younger in your career?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

When yeah, you know, you gotta be professional, you know. It don't lose your cool. And I know we're all human, and even in law enforcement, sometimes, you know, law enforcement officers lose their cool, and of course they get destroyed on social media and the media because of it, but we're all human, so you gotta do your best to keep your emotions in check. Um, you know, try to understand where people are coming from. You know, I mean, it's not always how it's not our intent to respond or our intent to react. Sometimes it's it's our intent to understand what's happening. You may not agree with it, you may not like it, but just try to understand it and just be fair and consistent in how you deal with it, be professional in how you deal with it. Um, you know, and it at the end of the day, you're doing a job and you just want to treat people with kindness and uh fairness, and it's not hard to do, but sometimes, you know, sometimes it can be it can be tough, but uh uh you know, you do your best.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

You're human too.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

You know, and I think, I mean, have you ever felt that um sometimes, like especially with the the drug epidemic and opioids, that sometimes with the current climate of everything, that law enforcement their voice isn't heard enough?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah, I think so. I and I think there's also uh a perception that law enforcement is too hardened and doesn't care. And that's one thing that I think I do well is I shatter that perception, is because when people get to know me and know my heart, they realize that there are a lot of people out there who do care. There are a lot of people out there who uh who give a damn, right? I mean, I I started a nonprofit organization to raise awareness of illicit fentanyl and other public safety threats. And I'm probably the only person in this space who hasn't lost a child to this uh crisis. And I get asked, then then why? Why why do you care? Well, because I know that my training, my not training, my experience and that my and that my resume will will get people in front of me. It'll put butts in chairs. And if I can give them information to prevent that that devastation to happening to their family, then that's that's good, right? And and and we gotta do, I've always felt like there's a there's a piece of me that has to serve. And this is this is how I can give back and how I can serve and and uh just about doing the right thing and and helping people, you know, move forward. And um I know there's a lot of hard people in law enforcement, a lot of people that get tired of seeing the same things over and over, but a lot of us that care as well and and truly do want to make our families and communities safer.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

I know you said supply and demand. If people want it, they're gonna get it. Where do you believe the healthcare system bears responsibility in this? And what do you think they could do differently?

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Yeah, absolutely. I think I think we have to have a holistic approach to to what's happening to this crisis. Um, you know, and then from their perspective, I I think uh funding, and I'm not someone who thinks you can throw money in a problem and it's just gonna go away. Not at all. But let's be honest, I mean, it's very little funding that really truly goes to this because of the stigma and and because of society's indifference to people who are suffering from substance use addiction. Um, so fund a little bit more funding would help. It really would. I mean, having no beds in treatment facilities or having one or two beds in treatment facilities, that's a disgrace. That's that's a that's an insult. Um, you know, having having those resources, and we're not talking about like, you know, just millions and millions and millions of dollars, you know, because like I said, throwing money at a problem certainly doesn't solve it alone. Um, but we've gotta like, we've got to come to the table with with some real resources and and funding that that actually can make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

I have had friends who've they've tried to get a bed and they're waiting weeks. You know.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

You know, first time I ever heard that, I thought, I don't know, I thought I was being lied to. I just and I've heard it over and over and over again. I guess I just refuse to accept it. And I remember I was doing a uh a presentation in Springfield, Missouri, and someone says, yeah, there's one bed here for males. I go, one? I mean, this isn't a small town. There's a couple hundred thousand people who live here, you know, and and they gotta, you know, they gotta go to Kansas City or St. Louis or a larger area and beg for a beg that bed there. And that's even if they can get up there or if they can convince the patient to get up there. Um it's horrible. That's I mean, that is it's unacceptable. We have you have people, we already have people that don't want to get help in this country because of the stigma and because of the shame and embarrassment that they feel. And shame, and by the way, shame on us for making them feel that way. So when they do come forward and say, hey, I need help, shouldn't we provide resources? And people can say, well, I don't, you know, they they failed and screw them, and you know, no, screw you. Sorry, I just I get so upset when I get people's indifference to this because I mean think of it this way. If if we put a little money in some resources on the front end, think of the, I mean, think of the the the the benefits that society's gonna get, less crime, I mean, uh uh uh uh, you know, less devastation. I mean, so a little bit of money spent on the front end is gonna save a lot more money on the back end because right now we're just spinning our wheel and it's just insanity.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Are some of the contributing factors to how the synthetic drug crisis or the opioid crisis got so bad?

SPEAKER_00 13:18

Well, opioid crisis got bad because of the pharmaceutical industry. I mean, I don't mind calling them out. If you look at uh uh, I mean, I talk about the history and when I talk about fentanyl, I have a four-hour class, it's very comprehensive. And give you the reader's digest version. If you look at pain management in this country prior to 1996, if you went to a doctor and said you were in pain, he or she's probably looking for a bone sticking out of your body. Now, I'm not saying that there weren't some doctors that, you know, that that wouldn't give you prescriptions or or that you people couldn't game the system, but for the most part, you know, generally or statistically speaking, I mean, pain management was was a thing. And then in 1996, we changed that. We actually added pain as a fifth vital sign. You know, we now know that the pharmaceutical industry uh companies like Purdue were were behind that. And then not only did we we get the the medical community to to change pain management, then we released drugs like oxycontin. And then we gave them out like they were candy. We were we were convinced, we were told that this was non-addictive, that less than one percent of people become uh addicted. I mean, it was just absolute garbage. No one questioned this. It wasn't science, it wasn't re- I always hate when people say the science says that that that's just your opinion. Just tell me this my opinion says. Don't, don't, don't, don't try to prop up these, your, your, your opinions with these, these big words. Um, and then what happened was we we got out of control. And by 2012, we had 81.3 prescriptions per 100 people, not 100,000, but per 100 people in the United States. It's insane. I mean, you look at all the codone and oxycodone use in the in the world, like 90 plus percent of it was in the United States alone. We treat pain differently in the United States than any other country in the world, and we do that to this day. In the pharmaceutical industry, if you look at the overall sales, I mean, it's what I don't know what it is now, 70, 75% of their overall sales are in the US. I mean, come on, this is this is silly. So when we we released opioids like they were water, like it was candy, well, then people turned to illicit opioids to heroin. And in fact, they turned to heroin at record amounts. We'd never seen heroin uh uh use a spike like it did uh following the the legal opioid prescription um you know from the pharmaceutical industry. And then the cartels had to respond, right? They couldn't make this stuff fast enough. So what did they do? They started putting illicit fentanyl in the heroin. You know, illicit fentanyl is is an opioid. Heroin's an opioid, you know. So it was a you know, the the the the the properties and the and the and everything about fentanyl and heroin.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

I can't hear you.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

How about now? There you go. I sound okay. My mic has a color on it turned off, but oh that's okay. Um so so they release more heroin uh with fentanyl in it, and then fentanyl just just takes over. It takes over heroin, you know. Good luck finding heroin in the United States, and then it gets into our pill supply, uh, it gets into our methamphetamine and it gets into our cocaine, and and it drives our drug deaths. I mean, you know, uh the numbers are slow to come out anymore from the CDC, but if you look at uh 2024, uh which is the late last year to have data, we lost about 80,000 Americans. And if you dive deep into those numbers, 75% lost their lives because of one drug, fentanyl. You know, the year before we lost 105,000 Americans, 75% because of one drug, fentanyl. And I can tell you, after 30 years in law enforcement, I've never seen a drug more impactful. I've never seen a drug, you know, and people ask me about, well, look at the progression of this drug and crack in the 80s and this and that. Yes, and those were all devastating, but I've never seen a drug change the landscape like this one drug have. It's a game changer. Drug experimentation, casual drug use, recreational drug use. I mean, this is where we're at. We're in crisis mode. People refuse to see that until it happens in their family or in their community, but we are in crisis mode. I mean, the time you and I get done talking, we'll lose, I don't know, 30, 35 more people to drugs, and 75% of those are because of one drug, fentanyl. I mean we've got to stand up and we've got to say this is enough. We gotta do something.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

And obviously the pharmaceutical companies play a role, and healthcare plays a role. Do you think it's possible for everyone to come together and be like, how do we manage this more responsibly?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

In my heart, yes, and in my mind, yes, because I'm an optimistic person. But and I used this phrase before, I mean, there's an there's an indifference in society to this, there's a stigma to this. So the reality is no. I'm not gonna give up. And I and if you're out there and you're fighting in this world, don't give up. You know, um, there are people who care and we have to have hope. Um, I think there's a there's things we can do, and we have to take a holistic approach. One is we got to get out of our silos. You know, I can't tell you how many times when I was at DEA or in law enforcement where people, you know, in the treatment or recovery community would say, You're with who? And they just hang up on me. I mean, have a conversation with me. You know, you may not agree with what I do or, you know, or with law enforcement, you know, but um I think there's a lot of things you might agree with me on. And if you get to know me and you know my heart and where my passion is, I think we might be able to collaborate on some things, you know. I'm not gonna necessarily agree everything with with what they do or what they have done, but I understand that at the end of the day, they want to help people, and that's what we need to do together. Um, so I have hope. Um, you know, every time I get knocked down, I get back up and I keep on moving because that's what we have to do.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Speaking of hope, what inspired you to start only two milligrams? Was there one event or was it just like yeah, no, not one event.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

And and like I said, I I never lost anyone. I mean, I've lost a lot of friends uh or have a lot of friends who've lost family members. Um I just I just knew that oh, you're with the DEA or you were in law enforcement for 30 years, you've done this, you've done that, and you've seen this and seen that. People will will, you know, when I when I put on trainings and things like that, people will come. And uh not because I'm special, just because of my experience, right? And and and if I can get people in the room and I can give them information, especially young people, and I can give them information, and I always say force multiplayer, I use that word a lot when I train, when I speak, if you can take that information and help not only help yourself, but help your circle of influence, whether that's your you know immediate family, your your friend group, whatever, that's a win-win. That's how we, that's how we move forward. That's progress. And that's what gives me hope and that's what keeps me motivated. And when people come up to me, when a kid comes up to me afterwards and hugs me and tells me their story and talks about you know their path and and how they're trying to make the good the right decisions and and and deal with trauma or or abuse or or some evil that they're dealing with in their life, and that how you know my message has given them, you know, I don't know, hope, inspiration, something, then I don't care about all the naysayers. I don't care about all the the times I've failed, um, because that's that's what has to keep us going, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:02

And um sorry, I guess sometimes I just get this is all important because I'm kind of curious. Like, do you have you seen the age of when people start using get younger? Has that changed at all?

SPEAKER_00 21:17

No, I personally I haven't. I mean, I've I've dealt with folks uh who who have young, young kids, elementary age kids who use drugs and alcohol, and that breaks my heart. But I I think the for the most part, at least from my perspective, it's still that that adolescent, you know, uh young teenage years is and I think if you go back in in history, and and of course this is just again my perspective, I think that's pretty, pretty consistent with you know with our parents and their parents and and you know, and other generations. It's it's that that time of of our lives where a lot of folks are you know experimenting and and they're questioning things and and sometimes they're dealing with things, you know, whether it's uh you know mental abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, um, or or Some type of trauma, you know, and um you know, peer pressure. I mean, there's a million reasons why why people experiment, but uh I think it's pretty consistent across the board where you know, usually, like I said, young teenage years, you know, if they try, because you know, the research also shows, and I I think it's important to add here, is that most people don't use drugs. Most kids don't try drugs. And I hear that all the time from parents. Well, this is a rite of passage. We all did it when we were kids. Nope, not true at all. In fact, there's a lot of data out there that can show you the other otherwise. It's uh uh it's not the majority of kids that are using drugs or alcohol.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Well, from what you were saying, once an individual you know gets the fentanyl, then they start going to the harder drugs, and now that fentanyl is not hard at all, but they start going to like heroin and harder drugs like that. I mean, that's to me like when I hear that's like desperation, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

Yeah, and that unfortunately that happens quite a bit, you know. I mean, look at what happened, like say when with pain management, when I which I described, I mean, you know, we a lot of doctors realize pretty quick that hey, this is bad, you know, that this is causing addiction, and I need to wean or cut my patient off. And then what they do, they just went to other doctors, they went to or multiple doctors or the pain management clinics, right? And or they just turn to the street, right? And and and and that's when heroin use spiked. And you know what we're seeing at again right now is stimulants. You know, we're every kid in America apparently has to be on some type of stimulant, ADHD or something like that. And and sometimes I get the pushback is you don't know, my kid really needs it. And yes, there are some children out there who do need this stuff, but if you look at the statistics, it does not make literally you look at the chart, it just it just spikes again. And that's exactly what opioids did in the 1990s. So, what do you think these kids do when they graduate high school or college? You think they just no longer need these drugs? No, we've conditioned them to use stimulants their entire life. Guess what we're already seeing across the board? I'm telling you, I speak from coast to coast, and I deal with a lot of uh law enforcement, a lot of narcotics officers. We're already seeing psychostimulant use, cocaine and methamphetamine increase in young people. Increase. Why? Well, there's it's not a it's it's a no-brainer to me. It's because we're we're giving them stimulants from age three on up to to calm them down in in class. And it's it's awful. It absolutely is awful. And follow the money, it's this it's the pharmaceutical industry, once again. And parents, uh, once they get emotionally attached to this, there's no convincing them that their son or daughter does not need these drugs.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Your agencies in law enforcement general provide an interesting perspective because you see from the outside the devastation, not just one family, but hundreds or thousands of families. How how do you think the DEA or law enforcement in general will have to evolve to kind of reach more people or get the message?

SPEAKER_00 25:16

We have to work with other sectors. We cannot arrest our way out of this. This is a holistic approach. Yes, I I have no problem putting these traffickers and these high-level folks in jail. That's where they deserve, period. Um, but we can't do that alone. Um, there's been, you know, over the course of my career, I saw different programs pop up and and uh, you know, some were successful, some weren't, but I commend them for trying where they would reach out to you know the prevention, treatment community, the awareness, you know, uh, you know, getting the schools, pep rallies, things like that. We've got to work with, you know, all these different people, healthcare, I mean, the communities. We we have to stop thinking that we can solve this problem. Every, all of us, not just law enforcement, all these communities have to, we we can't. I mean, we are literally all trying to invent the wheel. And it just, it's, it's, it's asinine. It's it's insane. Gotta be in the same room. We've got to build these coalitions and we've got to look at solutions together and holistically. And that's what law enforcement, you know, from my perspective, needs to do. I mean, the the best chiefs out there, the best sheriffs out there, the best organizations out there are the ones who realize that they can't do it alone. And this goes beyond drugs. I mean, if you want to you want to have a safer community, well, then get out there and actually talk to your community. Get out there and actually build coalitions with your community. If you want to sit in your office behind your computer and uh and have a little silo, well, then great. But you're not doing anything for the for the for the families in your community that that deserve more.

SPEAKER_01 26:57

Can you tell those who may not know like how deadly fentanyl is?

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Well, the reason we call our nonprofit organization only two MG is because only two milligrams can kill the average human being. So, what's only two milligrams? It's a couple granules of salt or sand, literally. I mean, I imagine taking a salt shaker and just pouring a tiny, tiny, I mean, a tiny enough to maybe for a top of a pen or a pencil. That's more than that's two milligrams. And that's how little it takes to kill the average human being. So one thing I always do is I I sometimes I'll take a sugar packet, and a sugar packet, like let's say a sweet and low or something like that, is typically a gram. Well, a gram is a thousand milligrams. If only two milligrams is enough to kill the average human being, and I'm in a sugar packet, if let's say it were fentanyl now, is a thousand milligrams, then that means that little tiny package that we're all familiar with could kill 500 people. So a lot of times what I'll do is I'll pour that little sugar package into a glass vial, especially I'm talking to young people. I remember I went to this, I probably had 350 kids in an auditorium. I passed that around and I said, this is enough to kill all of you, plus 150 more people. So I want them to see how little it takes. And I mean, now think about pills. I mean, because this stuff has just absolutely destroyed uh the counterfeit pill. And by the way, they don't have to be opioids, they can be whatever type of pill out there. There's a counterfeit. And if there's a counterfeit, I promise you there's going to be fentanyl, methamphetamine, or some type of garbage in it. And you you hear the stories, you know. Uh, we bought a pill, we split it in half, and one child died, the other one doesn't. I know of a story out in California where they bought an Adderall pill and three young ladies cut it in thirds. A third of a little tiny pill. And uh she took her third, never woke up. A third of a pill. I mean, that's just it's insanely small. So it doesn't take a lot. I mean, and and again, this is the first time we've ever had a drug like that. You know, there's there's other drugs out there that are deadlier than fentanyl, but this is the one that's changed the landscape for sure.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Imagine when you approach a situation where there's drugs, how does law enforcement keep themselves safe? Because I mean, I imagine if you touch it, it's actually, you know, that's a misperception.

SPEAKER_00 29:29

Um, so and I teach that. Um, and so I'm glad I'm glad because sometimes I always forget to bring that up. So I'm glad you did. Um, so the the perception out there is that is that touching fentanyl or even being around it, you know, even if it's if it goes airborne somehow, it's gonna kill uh folks, impact people, or create an overdose, and it doesn't. I know we've all seen the videos out there, and none of them have been proven uh uh true. And I always, especially when I talk to law enforcement, I've spoken to thousands of law enforcement about this, and I don't get any pushback, especially from patrol officers, because they know it. You know you spend one day in law enforcement, you're probably around fentanyl. Um, you know, it I love DEA, I do, um, but we were the ones who spread that information back in 2016, 2017, and uh it just took off, and there are still people who believe that. Um, the reality is that you can be around it. And and I I tell people, think common sense. I mean, if if it were so dangerous to be around, the manufacturers would be dead, you know, the cooks, um, the the traffickers would be dead. I mean, even the buyers or the users, I mean, prior to actual consumption. I mean, what are you gonna do? Put it in a, you know, put it in a bag, or you know, and I know those things happen, but ultimately someone's gonna be touching this drug, right? Um, we hear the stories all the time, you know, an officer searching a trunk and all of a sudden puff of air and he goes down, and zero, zero of these have been confirmed. There's a lot of really smarter people out there than me, um, uh organizations that have come out and they've they've written papers about this, they've spoken about this. Um yeah, it's it's definitely a misperception about about the drug. Now, with that said, I always tell people to be careful, right? Especially law enforcement, because they're all they're constantly dealing with this in the unknown. Always use nitrile gloves. Uh, I have a several boxes there. Um a glove, uh, it's called Get a Grip. I love that glove. It's my favorite glove. It's uh it's a nitrile glove. Um, you know, um, if if you want to wear a mask, if you want to wear footies and everything, then by all means you do you. You you do whatever makes you feel safe. The only PPE that makes me feel safe personally is is nitrile gloves. Um, but in the event that it fails, guess what? You're gonna be okay. As long as as long as they don't go through a mucous membrane, you know, as long as that you're not uh you know putting your fingers in your mouth or your nose or your eyes, um, you're gonna be okay.

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Or clearing that up because up until this conversation, I absolutely thought that it was that you know that you could just by touching it, you could do you think there's even because we have so many pain management medications. Do you think there's even a place for something like fentanyl? I mean, do you think it has its place?

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Yeah, I I actually I do, you know, I I I think pain, you know, pain exists, right? We've probably all been in it, and and and let me tell you, fentanyl, medical fentanyl, I have no issue with. I mean, uh, you know, I think World Health Organization still lists as an essential medicine. And if you've ever been in severe pain and or in surgery, you've probably had fentanyl or fentanyl analog, and I got no problem with that. Uh it's it's the it's the it's the illicit stuff that I have a problem with, and it's the abuse of it. I mean, doctors need to be responsible, and I think for the most part, probably most of them are, right? You know, I think most people in their professions are are good people, um, but you have the outliers and you have the folks that aren't, and they're just you know, they're in it for the money or for for negative or evil reasons. Um, but uh yeah, I think there's a there's a uh a legitimate need for painkillers. However, with that said, I also think that in the United States, we go to them too fast. Um, you know, I I mentioned before, you know, with the the hydrocodone and the oxycodone and just the opioids in general, when when we changed pain management in the 1990s, I mean, I mean, you would you could wisdom to take out and you went home with 30, 60, 90 hydrocodone pills, no questions asked. I mean, that's absurd. I mean, even if we didn't think they caused addiction, just I mean, that's absurd. And again, we're the only country that does that. And I'm not, and I'm talking first world developed nations, right? I mean, they've done studies on this where they've looked at you know, England, Germany, Australia, Canada, I mean, countries that are developed, you know, uh, you know, uh first world countries, and our need for drugs is greater than any of those countries, and it's it's it's that demand. We gotta we've gotta reduce it.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

That's interesting that from what you've seen, we're the country that depends on this the most. And I I don't know, but when they're when someone is making a drug, like an illicit drug, do they do you think, and this may be a loaded question, do you think it's their intention to unalive somebody? Like, because they must know.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

No, yeah. I'm sorry, I didn't interrupt.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

No, that's okay. I was just curious, because you said it's two milligrams. I'm assuming you mean the pharmaceutical grade.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

No, the pharmaceutical grade. Yeah, the on the street. Um their intentions not to kill people, their intentions to make money. Hands down, make money. So I I I call it the crazy algorithm. And it's it's not in it's not real, but bear with me for a minute. Fentanyl is very addictive, it's very powerful. So if I can if I can give you a in a very intense high and I can make you come back to me as a drug trafficker again and again and again, that makes me more money. And that's what I want, right? As long as I can get more of that than people dying. So, no, I mean, no, we don't want people to die, but I want to make more money. As long as I have that, that, you know, this side's greater than this side, then it's a win-win. If more people are dying than I'm making money, well, then I'm gonna adjust my formula. I'm gonna, I'm gonna change the way I'm doing things, right? Um, so no, I don't think their intent is to kill people. However, their intent is always to make money. As long as they're making more money than people are dying, then they don't care about the people they were killing. And there's tons of videos, I'm sure you can find them, where where they go down to Mexico and they talk to some of these cartel members and they ask them, and they're like, look, the Americans want this stuff. You know, we don't care. They die, whatever. You know, they're just very callous about it because it's all about money for them.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Oh humanity, and it's all just I feel like a lot of the stories I hear sometimes with fentanyl is someone just tried one pill, they weren't like a hardcore addict their whole life. It was they went to a party, they took something. And I've seen these these test strips, they're like fentanyl test strips. Are those even accurate?

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Do those even Yeah, and I have a problem with them. They are accurate. For the most part, they're accurate. I'm sure you get some false positives and things like that, but for the most part, they're accurate. Here's my problem with it is you're talking about a drug, a minuscule amount of a drug that can kill you. So let's just say, and this has happened, let's just say uh uh you and I decide we're gonna buy some pills on Snapchat, and we're gonna buy one extra pill, one for you, one for me, and one extra that we're gonna test. In order to test that pill, we have to destroy the entire pill, destroy it. So when we destroy that and we test it, it's negative. Great, it's negative. That gives you and I now a false sense of security that your pill and that my pill are safe, and we don't know that because that batch, you think about that. I I could I could literally put two milligrams in a batch of a hundred pills. I have no idea where it goes. Maybe it all goes onto one pill, maybe it sprinkles on a hundred pills just a tiny bit, you know. We don't know. So it's that false sense of security, and that's happened where people thought, well, you know, we we ordered an extra pill and we had it tested and it was negative, but yet still one of our friends died because you don't know about the rest of it. I mean, think about the uh uh, you know, now we get a baggie and it has, I don't know, fentanyl powder in it. And again, we test a little of it and it's negative. Okay, great, that was negative. It doesn't mean the rest is going to be negative. We're talking about two milligrams. I mean, I can't stress enough that's that's that's a couple granules of salt or sand. I mean, it is it is minuscule, it's nothing, and that's what kills the average human being. So, yeah, to your point, I mean, a lot of folks out there um who are experimenting, they get a pill, they split it in half. I I mean, I know of times where they split the pills in four and quarters, you know, and and saved them. And then and then on the second or third time they they used you know that that same pill, you know, to that quarter, they die. Um, because you're you're talking about a minuscule amount. I can't say that enough.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

Does now you hear a lot about Narcan? Does that does that have any hope against a drug like this if you if you suspect that you took it or you had like you took it and you're like, oh my god, I now I'm having second thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Yeah, in fact, I see it behind my narcissist. Oh, is that what it is? And the other boxes up there are naloxone as well. That's the drug is naloxone. We all most of us call it Narcan, right? That's that's they it's kind of like Q Tip. If you needed something to clean your ears, it's it's really not a Q tip, it's a cotton swab. But Q tip's the brand. They're both, right? And Narcan, good on them, right? I mean, they they figured out how to control the the market share. Um it's a it's a wonderful drug. It so what happens is is opioids attach themselves to the receptors in your brain. And when they attach themselves to receptors, they tell pain to go away. That's that's medically speaking. I'm not a doctor and I'm not trying to pretend to be one, but that's kind of what happens. I mean, they attach themselves and they either stop pain or at least reduce the intensity of pain. And the way I always describe it, especially when talking to young people, is I say, imagine we're playing king of the hill, right? And the hill is the opioid receptor. I'm the opioid and you're pain, and you're trying to get on the hill, but I'm blocking you from getting up there. That's exactly what opioids do. They're very good, very effective at doing that. But what happens is they overwhelm the system and they literally shut down your system. They cause respiratory depression. Your heart, I'm sorry, your brain tells your heart they don't need you anymore. So your heart beats less and less and less, and it's called respiratory depression. You you basically fall asleep and die. So when that's happening, when you're overdosing, you need a drug like naloxone or narcan. So they come in and they say, okay, you know what? I've been to the gym, I'm bigger and stronger. I'm gonna kick that opioid off the opioid receptor, and I'm gonna get up there and I'm gonna block the opioid from overwhelming the system. It's a great drug. Uh, I think personally, when I get asked, uh, you know, why did if you look at the numbers from 2023 to 2024, we went from 105,000 Americans to about 80,000 Americans lost their lives to drugs. Uh, a great decrease, still way too many. I mean, one's way too many as far as I'm concerned. But I always get asked why, why, why? Well, it's because of naloxone. I mean, naloxone's been around since, I don't know, late 60s, early 70s, but in 2023, we made it um where you could buy it anywhere, right? You didn't have to have a prescription for it. You didn't have to go to the pharmacy and ask, you know, behind the counter for it. I mean, now you can go to Walmart and find it, right? You can find it on Amazon. By the way, little PSA, don't buy it. Go to your health department, get it for free. But anyway, uh, it's a great drug. Um, but that's not that's just gonna help them from the overdose, right? I mean, get them to medical attention and then ult ultimately, you know, offer them a chance to get into some type of treatment or or help because ultimately that's what they need. Um, and that's what we should be striving for, is to help people.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Tell us a little bit about Eagle Six training.

SPEAKER_00 41:59

Yes, thank you. Uh so I I officially retired in 2022, and I do what a lot of cops do when they retire. I open up my own training and consulting business. So Eagle Six training is uh something very passionate to me. I do a lot of leadership training. That's something I'm also very passionate about is leadership training. I know fentanyl and leadership doesn't seem you know, believe it or not, though, there's a lot of parallels in the sense that I really feel like I'm helping people, and that's kind of what drives me. Um, but uh do a lot of training um uh uh uh not only in the law enforcement community, but outside the law enforcement community. Work with a lot of uh organizations, businesses, things like that. Uh my my leadership training is is I consider it basic, uh complex, but basic. Um meaning I really try to get people to go back to the basics. I don't use PowerPoint. Uh we do a lot of facilitated discussion. Um it's gone very well. Uh I travel a lot, just got back from from the East Coast uh after some successful training in the state of Maine. Love the state of Maine, it's beautiful up there.

SPEAKER_01 43:12

Um, but uh yeah, I still do that and uh I have a couple other hats I wear as well, but but yeah sorry, like when you hear when you hear someone, I'm sure you've heard like at one of your uh at a speaking engagement you've had, I'm sorry. When someone comes up to you and says they beat it, you know, they're they're drug free, they've they've gone through it. As someone who's seen like the worst of it, the the the the tragic outcomes, how does that feel for you?

SPEAKER_00 43:48

Love it, love it, love it, love it. I love when people share their stories, and and I love I love that they were able to break through, right? And and and find their their purpose and I absolutely makes me happy. I love when people share these stories. It gives me hope. I love it. I don't know I don't know how else to say other than um it's great. I I think it's wonderful and there you know drugs are are hard and and they're hard to beat and uh and often it's because of the things they're they're they're hiding from or trying to cope with you know trauma abuse things like that. And when they can when they can overcome all that and find you know some type of success or some type of of of of of you know hope in their life then isn't that wonderful like that's what we should be celebrating. So yeah I sound like a broken record but I love it.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

No that that I love that you you still have that that passion to to want to help that you haven't been I guess so burnt out from everything. You know what I mean I imagine there's periods in your your career where you've felt maybe not maybe like oh am I making a difference am I you know because like you said there are times it just you couldn't get ahead of it.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah you know I ask myself that almost every day had that conversation this morning in fact a a friend of mine uh called me and reminded me he was reading my mind somehow and and uh you just you gotta look forward you you can't uh if if if if every time we got knocked down we stayed down and cried and and and and and and oh I'm the I'm the victim then the what is that gonna do? Nothing. You gotta get back up you gotta keep on fighting. That's resiliency.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

That's that's how we make progress that's how we that's how we move the ball so from and if I'm if I didn't hear you right correct me you're you're more of like you want to start small there's no community too small to start in like the pharmaceuticals play a role but you gotta get started in the community like it's your local community like law enforcement has to stay involved in their community and people have to you know keep that open line of communication with law enforcement and they have to be aware too of what's out there and communicate.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

And do you think that's a big piece of it like keeping it like in your community starting small and then growing it yeah absolutely yeah and and be proactive don't don't I mean there's nothing wrong if if if well let me say that if you've lost someone a family member friend and and and you know you want to start an organization or you want to start talking because of that there's nothing wrong with that. You know you're trying to find some type of avenue for that pain and and try to prevent that devastation from happening to other families that's great. But I'm gonna challenge people to be uh proactive you know just go out there and say hey how can I make my community safer before these things happen?

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:06

Do you imagine if more of us did that oh my goodness I mean how what kind of prog positive progress could we make in this world I mean and just it starts I don't know maybe it starts in your family and then from there it moves on to your your neighborhood and from there it moves on to your your I don't know the whole block whatever but just keep on moving that ball to say to anyone who's like in the in the throes of addiction they're just you know say they're in the situation that we kind of talked about there's not a lot of beds available they're really struggling they really want to get help what what would you what would you say to them you matter you absolutely matter uh you may not think it but people care about you they care about your health they care about your success you matter who gives a shit about the people out there who are you know turning the other way or or calling you derogatory terms or or don't want to help you well then you know what there's a lot more people out there who do want to help you you matter you know the things that happen to you probably aren't your fault you know let's let's find someone that can help you help you move forward because you absolutely matter that's such an important message because I think and I'm sure you've seen it too or social media I don't think helps this this I I I personally don't think it helps this drug crisis that we're in either I think it contributes a lot to some of the depression anxiety and just sadness all around I think that's an important message to hear is that you matter yeah social media I mean it's it's a double edged sword right I mean I love it and I also hate it um especially for our young people I mean right now what what's everyone doing on Facebook right now arguing about this halftime show who cares I don't care if you liked it I don't care if you didn't like it I in fact I wrote a post about this who cares 219 people are gonna die today because of drugs. There are a lot of things out there that matter whether or not a halftime show is sung in English or not means nothing to me. Sorry if I've offended you but that's the reality so spending 20 minutes talking about this stuff on Facebook, I don't know I it just aggravates the hell out of me it really does. We got a lot worse problems in this country and uh you know we're we're we're just we're we're picking sides and especially with politics it's just disgusting it really is um these politicians are probably in back rooms together high-fiving each other look we got our constituents fighting each other they're laughing at us and shame on us I mean it just it's horrible it really is it's despicable um yeah again I I know I'm getting on my uh my I think you're I think you're saying what a lot of people are feeling yeah I just I'm just fed up with it I really am and I always I I'm not political and I try to try not to hurt anyone's feelings but I I think I'm just to the point now where if I hurt your feelings then sorry but I guess you got to get over it because I got important work to do and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna get stuck in this uh in this this crap so do you see like yeah only two milligrams and evil six training going in the next couple of years where would you like to see them go I guess um I I gotta tell you I got a lot of folks who want to who want to train who wanna who want to speak who want to talk about drugs and we want to expand our offerings but just can't afford to do it. It's it's uh you know private funding has been where we've stayed in existence with only 2MG for the last two years now officially you know we incorporated in January of 2024 um and without that private funding we you know because we don't I don't pay myself you know we're all volunteers um but it's tough it really is um asking people for five dollars that's that's like pulling teeth it really is um you know we half joke that we should find a way to bring dogs or animals into the mix you know maybe maybe if someone who died of substance use disorder um of drugs um maybe if he or she had a dog we could we could take that dog you know and make sure it has the medical treatment rehome it you know put it into a safe environment and we would probably have millions of dollars donated to us but without that animal and without some other type of uh you know uh aspect there no one no one cares it just you know but that's me uh getting upset again so I mean here's what I like I we're gonna keep on going forward one way or another we'll find in fact a lot of the money I make from Eagle Six training goes to only 2MG and that's fine with me happy to do that and blessed to be able to do that um but ultimately we're gonna one day we're I don't know a millionaire or something's gonna hear this and say yeah here's a here's a check and guess what we're gonna do we're gonna have a lot more people who have the same passion as me into more communities into more schools and we're just gonna keep on raising awareness because I truly truly believe that's that's one thing that really helps and really works is that knowledge part especially with young people there's so many kids out there who are not getting the information they need. I have parents that tell me out of sight out of mind if we don't talk about this it'll won't happen. I'm like that's that's an incredible way of thinking um social media as we talked about I mean there's a lot of misinformation out there a lot of incorrect information out there the drug traffickers certainly aren't uh um gonna tell you it's dangerous right they're gonna encourage you to use it because they want to make their money so yeah uh we're gonna keep on fighting for every penny that the that we get and we're gonna use that to uh to scale this operation and I mean I've been in 25 states alone of talking to thousand people alone imagine what two or three or four or five people with those same metrics can do that's where we're gonna move only to MG Eagle6 training I'm doing a lot of leadership and consulting I'll continue to do that um again that's another passion of mine um but uh only to MG is where I see a I see a big scale important because you're reaching a population that is heavily dependent on social media and just I don't want to take up too much more of your time but where what are some things that what parents can watch out for with their kids on social media that maybe drug traffickers or dealers use to try to lure kids in yeah well first of all no know what social media they're on um be involved in it um look at it you know be a parent you know um I know you want to respect your children's privacy I get that but you gotta know what's happening you got to know who they're hanging out with who their friends are where they're hanging out because those things matter they absolutely matter and just have these conversations with your children I mean um like I said before if if you don't someone else will and and and and why not give them accurate information I'm not naive to think that they're not gonna use drugs or alcohol or or violence or sex or or some other decision that could that could you know change the course of their life but with the right information less of them will you know they'll make the the the the the good decisions right the the things that that will uh get them where they want to go and um just be involved you know and and and and know what's going on don't don't be a stranger and and and also I've had so many parents say I saw the flags I saw I saw this I knew something was up but I didn't do anything do something you know even if you're wrong you know I I did this because I care about you because I love you and yeah maybe I I overstepped here a little bit but you know what you're safe and so I don't regret that and I think ultimately our kids are going to appreciate that you know and maybe not in the moment but at some point they're gonna say yeah mom or dad loves me and this is why they did that.

SPEAKER_01 55:42

It goes back to because I hear like an overwhelming like theme of what you're saying which is communication amongst everybody.

SPEAKER_00 55:48

You know like I feel like not even just from DEA to law enforcement law enforcement to parents parents to kids teachers to kids just everybody talking you know healthcare involved pharmaceutical just everybody involved and I think that that's I think when people stop talking and that's when you run into problems right it doesn't cure the situation but I think when you just stop talking altogether and playing the blame game people like yeah I agree it's it's and again to to go back to social media or even like you know cell phones and things like that I mean I'm sure you know if you and I talked for however much longer I'm sure there's things we disagree with and that's okay. I mean but we you know as long as we have this right as long as we're trying to understand each other and have communication it's when we it's when we break that and then we start you know the name calling and the you know and just and we don't even have the conversations anymore. We just we start throwing insults at each other and and what does that do?

SPEAKER_01 56:54

It does nothing it absolutely does nothing and yeah we need more communication and you're right that is my I I guess that is my theme really a wonderful theme to have you know I think that's I think that's big and you've been so gracious with your time and I know you're a super super busy guy but I just would like to know what is a quote or a saying that guides your daily life be the change you want to be in this world that is absolutely I tell myself that every day um today I've had to remind myself a lot because some things happened when you get knocked down get back up and that's why I mentioned that earlier but uh you know what drives me is it's just making a better world and so be the change you want to be. No doubt there's probably people you've reached that you don't even know you reach them you know so I you know I hope that you can hold on to that maybe in moments when our when our days feel a little harder. And I I hope that you someday maybe write a book about about all this and because I think that there's a place for it um for everybody. And I've really enjoyed talking with you enlightened me on a lot of things um I learned a lot here with you and I resonate with a lot of people and I appreciate time I really do um and I want to thank you again if there's anything else that you want to say or or speak on or promote you know go for it.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

No I I appreciate you and your time and always enjoy these types of conversations so thank you. If anyone wants to find more about me2mg.com so only two just the number mg dot com uh we don't have a lot on the website um but it has um our presentations and contact information um I guess I will mention one thing is we don't we don't charge if if if an organization can afford to to pay for us then great because we'll use that money to go to an organization or community that can't. But I I told myself uh from day one that I never wanted money to be an obstacle. If a a community a school or whoever called me and says we need you to speak I never wanted to say well only if you can spend blah blah blah because this information is too important.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

So if you can pay me great I'll use that money for the next time someone can't afford but if you can't pay me I'll find a way to to fund this so I love your mission and I hope that we've we reached someone and I know that you'll continue to reach people. And I hope someone who hears us today struggling hears you and you know hears your message and I I hope I hope it reaches someone today. So thank you so much for everything. I appreciate your time I really do thank you so much.