# 98 Exploring The Dance of Transformation | Catherine Llewellyn

0:00 We're going to dance for six days straight. You ready? I said, yeah, why not? Right. Actually we didn't dance the whole time we danced. all morning every day, all evening, every night. It's almost like that orgasmic peak moment, which you can get in the dance or when you're creating When somebody really opens up to what they're actually experiencing in the present moment fully, fully receives it and lets it in. It always, always, always transforms into something else. Let's go. So welcome. Today we have Katherine Llewellyn. She's a transformation catalyst, humanistic psychologist, and she's known for her work with Pellewa and Conscious Dance Facilitation.

0:48 Today we're going to be mostly mindfulness with a touch of health because of Katherine's background. Katherine, welcome to the show. Thank you. And I'm very, very happy to be here with your sunny smile. Welcoming me. Speaking of sunny, you just said that you're, you went through like four different weather patterns today alone. You're in Wales, right? I'm in Wales. It's, it's all hills and valleys and sheep and birds. It's lovely. And the weather completely, I live, I'm over, I'm halfway up the side of the valley, I'm overlooking the valley, so I can be in my living room looking out and I can see three different weather systems at the same time on the hills.

1:31 And in the valley, it's quite extraordinary that I do feel like you have the potential background that people have by default on their computers. You know how it cycles through the backgrounds, like, you know, if you want visit Wales and you see like this huge landscape and I feel like you just wake up to that. I wouldn't be surprised if some of your videos have that in the background, you know, if not, I totally would love to see that. Yeah. Well, that's an interesting idea. Trouble with sunlight, you don't know what it's going to do when you're filming. So, yeah, you know, just an idea. It's an idea. Thank you.

2:13 So you've, you've had a very interesting journey. You're a 1000 percent what we would call right. A spiritual entrepreneur. Um, You've done, you've lived a life of curiosity and you've gone and if you're interested in it, you've gone for it, which is awesome. And I want to express to the audience and, and give them a chance to get a feel for your background and why, why, why consciousness of everything. And I think you have an interesting beginning if you want to start with where it all began. I think it started with your father, right? Yes, uh, well, both my parents actually were kind of unusual. She came from an aristocratic background, you know, grew up with nannies and servants and that kind of thing, and she didn't really fit in.

3:02 She was too passionate. She was too, she became an artist in Chelsea, which was really, really out there in those days in London. My father, meanwhile, came from a really, really working class family, working on the docks, and they all expected him to go that route. He was like, no. And he went off and got a scholarship and a degree, and they kind of met in the middle in London, completely unlikely, very, Non conformist human beings. And luckily and magically for me, they got married and had children and I was the first child. And so we were brought up in this really unusual situation. He actually retrained as a naturopath and osteopath.

3:45 in his forties, because someone in the family had had an extraordinary cure from something awful was probably something like polio or something that was just cured with nature cure. No drugs. He said, right, I'm dropping what I'm retraining now, which was years of retraining. And so we're I grew up in a household which was all about the body will heal itself, that the body is designed to heal itself, and also that the spirit is designed to expand and express. You know, there's nothing wrong with us. The design is excellent. If you don't go in and mess it up, right? It's a hard pill for some people to swallow too.

4:27 Honestly, I mean, for me as a child, it was just, you know, I was born that way. And that's how it was right at the beginning. And so there were times as a child when I said, well, why can't we have desserts and sweets? Well, because they're going to ruin your health. All right, then. Now I'm so grateful. You know, it was like, okay, you've got a cold. Go to bed. I haven't got a cold. He could tell there was something coming on. You know, those people who can tell when something's, you know, before you realize it and you're four and it's sunlight outside. You're in bed with the blankets up to your chin. You're staying there for four days. The doctor comes around and gives your father the medicine.

5:09 He goes, thank you very much, and chucks it down the toilet. So I've got a fantastic immune system. I'm very healthy. And so my energy, quality of my energy is much better because of that. And my imagination and my sense of, um, curiosity, as you put it. And he was also talking to us about philosophy and doing all kinds of wild stuff. Right from very early age, you know, I was going to spend a weekend with somebody at the age of six and she was developing a new modality around nonviolent communication and she was trying out the processes on me.

5:51 I was six. Now I didn't know that she was going to become a really well known practitioner, which she did. She was a friend of the family. These things were normal for us. That's great. It really, it really kicked me off on that whole very inquiring, curious, don't necessarily believe everything everybody says, don't necessarily believe everything you read. And don't be overly upset if you think people are talking nonsense. That's their problem. It's not your problem. You know, your problem is trying to connect with your own truth. So that, that means I'm much less badly affected, I think, than some people when they're faced with some of the nonsense that goes on in the world.

6:34 I don't really take it personally because I'm like, Hey, they're on their path, everyone's on their path. Yeah. And if I get obsessed with someone else's path. That's my problem. And, uh, yes, I agree. And a lot of people believe the complete opposite, which, which makes it hard to communicate, to understand each other, to progress, right? You have all these unnecessary hurdles that are hurdles that we created for ourselves. And it's interesting that like your life started like that, where your father just would, just flip the switch and went a completely different path, went all natural.

7:21 And then when the doctors came and gave the prescription, he, I guess he didn't want to say what he was doing too much. And he was like, yeah, yeah, sure. And he just flushed it down the toilet. So it's, it's interesting how he would just have, I guess, the outside world still not. No, too much of what he's doing. He kept it kind of like a secret. Oh, well, no. Actually, everybody knew what he was doing. Oh. He was described for miles around as the local witch doctor and patients would come to him as a last resort when the medical established and written them off and said, you've got this till you die now. And he would fix them and come in and tell us about it. Huh. You know, with a salt bath and stop eating sugar or, you know, he would just, after he died, we found a box of, um, uh, like a little box full of little cards, you know, that you might have for people's addresses in the old days.

8:16 Each card was a different dietary regime and there had to be 150 in there. Wow. And I thought, we know so little about this stuff. Yeah. But of course we couldn't. Each one, he knew when to use each one, we didn't, and so actually we destroyed it because we knew if we gave it to somebody, even a practitioner, they wouldn't know how to use it safely. Interesting. Wow. So it was, it was one of those, the whole, we and the rest of the brothers and sisters were like, what do we do with this? Some of the, many of the diets he'd developed himself and he knew when to use one, when to switch to another.

8:59 It was an art. Well, that's unfortunate that like he wasn't able to like pass it on or like duplicate it, you know I mean, I know a lot of people now are finding ways and they're figuring things out, right? Yeah, so interesting how your life Started out with such a like really good upbringing and healthy mentally and physically What made you decide to put more emphasis on? consciousness I think it was, um, I always knew, uh, that there was something about, um, I'm not quite sure how to put it.

9:44 I think when I was very young, I recognized that a lot of the adults in particular around didn't seem to be fulfilled or happy. In those days I didn't know the word fulfilled, right, but they didn't seem happy and they seemed to be lying to themselves. And to each other and just talking nonsense that they didn't even believe in. And, and I thought, why, why are they doing that? What a waste of energy. It just seemed to me a waste of energy. Um, and I was really interested in why do people feel the need to do that? There must be a reason why they're doing it, you know, because on the face of it, logically, it makes no sense.

10:29 So why are they doing it? Um, How do people live another way? You know, how do people be more fulfilled and satisfied? And of course, the other thing that came in, and I had that with me as a child. an innocent child, you know, I knew nothing really about what it is to be a human being yet. And of course, then I hit puberty and young adulthood and everything else. And then I kind of discovered all of the, uh, baggage and hormonal and emotional and psychological drama That we all have to kind of go through and I, I realized that these will have a really strong force to them that could enhance our experience of fulfillment, but could also really get in the way by being pulled off track, you know, by having needs that we don't understand.

11:20 And that we're trying to get met, we do stupid things to get them met and all that stuff and then you have to recover from that and oh my God, you know, and meanwhile, all this stuff coming in from the media and what everyone else thinks is the right thing to do and what to wear and all of that. So I then kind of got a little bit more empathy for the fact that people were just trying to survive, they were trying to get through as best they could. You know, and then later on, as I got older, I also understood that, you know, by the time people reach their thirties, forties, fifties, whatever, they had a lot to lose, you know, in terms of approval at work, a family, you know, just keeping the kids from killing themselves is just a complete mission, right?

12:08 So what are they going to do with their lives? Oh my God, she's pregnant. She's only 14. I mean, you know, all the stuff that parents have to deal with and. In work situations, highly competitive, you know, how do you compete and get what you need without losing your soul? And how do you relate with people? You know, all of these challenges that people have, which of course at six, I had no idea about. So I just totally naive, but the, the essence of that observation at the beginning carried through. And then I went through all my own ups and downs and stupidities, and I'm sure I've got more to come, right?

12:49 For being human. Absolutely right. And I learned an awful lot on my own behalf through that. And I, and I came to recognize that it was something about wealth, this idea of wealth, Well, when you say that word, the first people think of is money. And then if you widen it a bit, you might think of property, a beautiful place to live or a beautiful car. And I kind of hit on this thing of, to me, the most important wealth was the wealth within, which I came to realize was actually consciousness, or you might call it spirit. Because I recognize that when, when that's in good shape in me, it does not matter what I have in material terms.

13:35 It is absolutely unimportant. And I'm, you know, in awe of the miraculousness of a blade of grass or something, you know, I'm just in a fantastic space because that inner experience actually is the wealth. And so I then decided to invest in that consciously. I did a lot of trainings, you know, investing in my own self awareness, my, um, emotional capacities, my intellectual capacities, my energetic capacities, and just. expanding myself as much as I could, because that means I've now got enormous wealth within that cannot be affected by what's happening in the markets or whether somebody likes me or what the weather's doing because it's inherent.

14:27 It's, it's all the way through me. Um, and of course that then fits perfectly back to this whole idea of, could I help people to be more fulfilled? Guess what? I mean, I got much better chance of doing that. When I'm in a good state of consciousness and awareness, because then I'm less likely to get a kind of ego hook into their issues and into their transformation. I'm, I'm more able to be more empathic, but without having my own agendas about that person. Yeah, I can, I can work with giving them space, respecting their space.

15:08 whilst being very present with them, you know, cause I'm, of course that I can't do that a hundred percent, but much, much more so than I would have been able to do if it wasn't for the work I've done and that I continue to do. And I know that you, your curiosity has brought you to a lot of, I don't know if you wouldn't want to call them modalities, but there's different aspects of training and you have a good list of things that you've done on that journey of. Like you said, working on yourself so you can help others do the same and I, I, I, I, I agree with you, right? It's the, the lens that you use when you look at the world and yourself as, as that gets better and cleaner, it's easier to to just do more and do better and be, be happier, right?

16:00 If you feel better, you do better. Like, you know, like if, if that's like a tiny, tiny phrase, um, but there's like a, a specific way that you help people and it's called humanistic psychology, and I wanted to get into that. Cause I'm like, what is that? It sounds interesting. Yeah. Well, it's very interesting and, uh, it would be possible to talk about it for a very long time and I have done. Um, So you've probably heard of psychoanalysis and Freud. Yes. Right from the very beginning. So that was the first psychotherapeutic modality, if you like. And it was, it was all about going right back to the beginning and analyzing everything, but particularly focusing on trauma and family dysfunction.

16:47 So it was really focusing on all of that. And that would be the first place you would go to find out what the trauma is and what the damage is. And that's a particular emphasis and there are situations where that is the best, most useful emphasis for a particular individual person. But there came a kind of a backlash later on where people started to say, yeah, but there's a lot of people where that's not the best route because it's just depressing. You know, if you don't need to do that, why would you do that? Because it can be really, and we can all find something awful that happened when we were a child. And we can all kind of wallow in being miserable about it, anyone can do that, but for a lot of us, that's not required.

17:28 So there was a kind of a, and there was also a sort of authoritarianism in psychoanalysis, where the therapist is the authority over the client. And I've read some stuff, somebody sent me some stuff about a brilliant piece someone had written. I said, this piece is great. The only thing that's wrong with it is that the therapist thinks they know best about the client. What's that about? That's insane. I said, yeah, psychotherapy, uh, that's, that's what is based on that assumption. Now we all know now that Freud was not a well adjusted guy. Right. I think I like how you put that understatement.

18:10 Right. Um, so. Every human being who works with other human being has got their bias, that they've all got their flaws. So the minute you put the therapist in charge of the client, the authority over the client, you're going to have hell to pay. It's going to be, there's going to be problems, in my opinion, right? I've just discounted the whole of the psychotherapy community. But then what happened was, um, there was this sense of, no, we want to emphasize growth. not just trauma and damage. People want to grow. There are a lot of people who aren't really damaged, but they want to understand themselves better.

18:54 They want to expand and grow. They want to, um, understand their strengths, not just their weaknesses. And also there's a lot of people, particularly as, uh, the level of education grew over the decades and people were reading about all this stuff. They knew a lot of stuff. So. These people don't need to go through psychoanalysis, a lot of them. What about if there was a situation where it's more of a collegiate discussion between the practitioner and the client, where it's about respect for the client, that respect that the client will naturally grow and flourish and expand, unless you actively prevent them from doing that. If you have that as an assumption, and that you respect their, their choice of direction, their choice of path, What they want to work on, how they want to do it.

19:43 And then you're there in service to that. And you're showing up really authentically with them. So that in relationship, you can be serving them within that rather than they're lying on a couch and you're sitting behind them above them, right? Then that could be a much more fruitful approach. And that is humanistic psychology. That was the basis of humanistic psychology. So I trained in that in 1996 to 1998 in my early 40s, but when I went on that master's degree, I discovered that for the 16 years prior to that, that I've been working with people, I'd actually been practicing humanistic psychology without knowing it.

20:28 That's awesome. Because that was my kind of bias already. So I thought this is fantastic now I know what it's called. And of course, I learned a lot of new stuff. You know, I, I learned how to do things much better, more skillfully, more elegantly, and more powerfully through, through the training. And I'm not surprised that you naturally went that route because, of how you were brought up and what you saw that needed to be worked on. That's, and I agree with that, right? Where it's, it's, it's like a consult. It's your friend. You're, you're talking with somebody instead of, Someone telling you, well, you're messed up and this is what you need to do.

21:12 And, you know, call me tomorrow. And most of the movies are like that, right? Where are you just like, you know, doc, I'm all messed up. And then you have like the person sitting in the chair, doodling like, and then tell me how that makes you feel. You know, they're just uninterested and they're just checking boxes. Um, which is, I, so I, I do, I do like that, that approach. And, um, there's something that I wanted to bring up. That you went into, I think, after humanistic psychology is something called conscious dance. Yes. And, um, I, I love dance because that is you connecting with your body and that's more of like inner work and functionality.

22:01 There's a lot of health oriented with that, but there's something very interesting about, um, your brief description of conscious dance, but I want to, I'm curious, like, what, how, how did that happen? Did you come across somebody? Was it a curiosity? And I want to know what that is all about. Okay, great. So, have you heard of a lady called Gabrielle Roth? No. No. Or have you heard of Five Rhythms Dance? I wouldn't be surprised if I saw it and not knew what it was. Yes, exactly. So Gabrielle Roth started Five Rhythms Dance at a place called Esalem in California, which was a very, very forward thinking alternative place.

22:49 And she started it because she, uh, she was a natural dancer. Tall and thin long black hair, which is just a beautiful, beautiful natural dancer. And she was asked to go and work with groups of people who had, who were suffering either from physical things or from psychological issues. And the idea that people thought if we can get these people into movement, that's going to help them with whatever they're trying to heal. Um, and she could just naturally get them moving. Just, she just got them moving and And going through a whole kind of wave of movement, which was very healing for them, very amazing for them.

23:40 And she got very, very popular doing this. And she started doing this just with ordinary people and her groups were getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And eventually someone said to her, Gabrielle, you've got to train other teachers because you're going to be there, bro. And so you've got to break it down. You can't just go right and teach you the wave, right? So you broke it down to these five different rhythms of movement. Which are also kind of parallel to five different modes of being. So, uh, the first one is flowing, which is about being really receptive and going with the flow. And you can do that in your mindfulness, kind of, or you can do that with your body, going with the flow.

24:22 The second one is staccato, which is about getting very clear. So that you can do that in movement, but you can also do it in your mind in terms of I'm making a decision now, this is going to happen. That's not going to happen. No more of that, more of this. The third one is called chaos. And that is the most creative one, because that's when you get flowing and staccato mingling together and fully letting go, which you've probably experienced that on the dance floor. When you completely let go with your body, you've no idea what it's going to do next. It's But you know, it's going to do what it wants to do. And you're absolutely free of restriction.

25:03 And it's the same if someone's in a creative place where they're being highly creative, often it's a mess everywhere, someone else walking in would go, what are you doing? It's such a, but it's, it's really creative. They're right in that creative zone and that creates a kind of a peak moment. It's almost like that orgasmic peak moment, which you can get in the dance or when you're creating. And the one after that is like a kind of celebratory chilling down. It's called lyrical, playful, light, innocent. And then the last one stillness is where you're just reintegrating all of your experience of the dance or the creative process, whatever you've been doing, bringing it home, breathing in, grounding it down, and you finish the cycle.

25:49 So something Gabrielle noticed was that a lot of people in their lives were missing out one or other of these rhythms. in their life. So if they came and danced these rhythms in a kind of a wave, it would help to rebalance them. And it also gives them an enormous sense of joy because it would give access, like you were saying, access to all of this energy that's in the body and in the spirit through the movement. It's a beautiful, beautiful thing. Anyway, how I came across it was on the master's degree, where I'm learning about humanistic psychology. I became friends with one of the tutors, a woman, and we used to sometimes go dancing together in the evenings. And one time she said, do you want to come with me to a five rhythms dance event?

26:33 I went, yeah, great. She said, great. Six days long. Um, it's a camp. We're going to dance for six days straight. You ready? I said, yeah, why not? Right. Actually we didn't dance the whole time we danced. all morning every day, all evening, every night. And in the afternoon we had a choice of, you know, body painting, yoga, meditation, et cetera. So we did a massive amount of dancing and I absolutely loved it. It was really good fun. And I subsequently, I then did a lot of five rhythms dance and eventually trained as a teacher and taught it for a while.

27:13 And then probably because of my humanistic background, I then evolved my own version. Which is called being moving, seeing, which is, it doesn't have the structure of the five rhythms. It's unstructured. So the idea is you're just in whatever rhythm you're in at any point. And if that means you're in flow the whole time, that's, that's what, that's what you need to do. Or if you're going back and forth, that's what you need to do. And because of my training and my experience, I can hold a group that's going through all of those shifts. You know, and I can read the group, um, in such a way that I can have support and facilitate them through that journey.

27:56 So the journey is meaningful with all sorts of mysterious things going on along the way. It's, uh, I like how you internalized it and then you made it yours. And, um, my, well, two parts, one, I, my background with dance is more along I'm not sure if you're familiar with breakdancing. Of course. With the acrobatic dance and all that. And it was You can do that. Yeah. Well, now I do my best. I've always been so impressed with that. It's, it's, it's Physically demanding, energetically demanding.

28:38 I feel like getting back into it just because of it forcing you to be that, that fit, but I'm strong. You have to be strong. Oh, yeah. You have to be upside down half the time. Um, yeah. Yeah. When I jump into a handstand, why don't you, um, But I'm like internalizing what you're saying and I'm having flashbacks of my progress learning how to break this and it's all, it's, there's a lot of flexibility. You're manipulating, um, your, your weights, your gravity, your center of gravity. And I was just very stiff and that just didn't align, but I really wanted to learn.

29:19 And it was just that progress of just learning the basics. And. Experience it, experiencing it. And then part of it is, um, sometimes you can do a routine that you memorize from other people, and then you create a routine. And then that other part where I remember you were talking about the five different steps before, where it's freestyle and it's just, you flow with it. And, and in the progress of everything that we do, that's, I see that, that The flow of life where you're, you're going through life and you're learning about the world around you, you're adapting to it, and then you're like, Hmm, I don't like this. I like that.

29:59 So you're making those decisions. And then. It, you're, you're problem aware, and now you're self aware and then you're consciously aware of the things and you trust yourself enough. And I feel like very few people get to the place where they trust themselves enough to make those decisions that are really important or you're unconsciously I see that as, as that dance where I would get to a point where you would just freestyle and you know, um, As far as dance moves, how do I'm not gonna go too hard now because I injured myself or I'm gonna go a little bit more Aggressive because I want to do better than that person or whatever and you have the like this Really cool dynamic going on so I really appreciated um you sharing that I do have a question though When you do your groups when you now do it your way it seems like you're allowing people to like you said be where they're at now and Allowing their I guess subconscious their body to I guess identify where they're at and express that.

31:08 Is that what you're doing? And then the second part is if you're doing it in a group, everybody's coming from different places. So is there a different rhythm? Does it just look like chaos? Like, like, what does that look like? This is why you have to train properly before you do this kind of work, because otherwise you could just create a sort of sorry mess that no one gets anything out of it. Um, something I learned through the humanistic psychology work is that when somebody really opens up to what they're actually experiencing in the present moment fully, fully receives it and lets it in.

31:50 It always, always, always transforms into something else. So the key is opening up. It's a total. Yeah. It's a bit like when you digest something, it doesn't just go partway through your body. It goes all the way through. And then a bit later you're hungry again. You know, it's a natural process. And one of the things with the dance is the dance helps us to process our experience. And when we get stuck in life, getting stuck in life is, is almost the same thing as saying we're not allowing our experience. We're, we're attaching to our experience and we're keeping it stuck and then it's not digested.

32:32 We get, we get emotional indigestion or psychological indigestion. So when I'm running the, when I'm holding the groups, um, I always have a kind of a grounding point at the beginning, which creates a sense of oneness in the group. So we're all there together. We're, we've got some connection and I use a number of techniques for that. Like one technique is everybody has to book by a specific. point in time, two or three days before the event. It has, if they haven't booked, they're not coming in. So what that means is they're already more conscious when they arrive than they would have been if they just rolled out of bed and thought, right, I'll just show up.

33:14 And they've got more respect for each other because they know everyone else has gone through that same thing. Everyone else has made that commitment. They've all shown up at the same time. And also once everyone's in, I lock the door of the building so no one else can get in. So you're late. That's it. And you're just got a cup to the door and you're just trying to dance by yourself outside. get to come in. And you know, I've had a couple of people show up late and not get in. And I've met up with them later at another situation and they told me that that changed their life. Wow. Because they suddenly realized that them showing up matters and that the way they show up matters. And it makes it, it was a shock to them.

33:55 They went, Oh my God. And all the people inside, they know they're protected. No one else is going to come in and mess up the energy. So even those things, before we even begin, start to set the scene. And then at the beginning, I have everyone lie down and I read out a sacred reading, like, um, a Sufi poem or something like that. And I say to everybody, stay on the floor until your body wants to move, don't start moving until your body starts to move of its own accord. So they're all lying on the floor with their eyes closed and the music comes on and you see people start, some people just stay there a long time, some people just start and things just start to shift a little bit and then coming up a little bit and then maybe not, maybe slithering along, coming up a bit and some people are springing up but they're just letting the energy do the work which That on its own is incredibly healing because so many people in life are constantly got to keep going.

34:54 I've got to push myself. I've got to get through this in this space. No, they don't have to do that. And then they just allow it to follow and follow. And then sometimes it looks like you've got a room full of individual people who are all doing something completely different. And sometimes everybody's in it together doing something very similar. It's all freestyle. And sometimes people are very much inward. And sometimes people are dancing with each other. And sometimes people are on the floor, in a ball with somebody else, turning over. We call that contact. You know, like, kind of, it's almost like they're dancing physically with each other on the floor.

35:37 Rolling over each other and holding hands and stuff. That's great. And then kind of moving, no talking, no alcohol, nothing. And people are like, you up for this? Yeah. You know, the feeling of, okay, fine. And then they move on. And, and then, and then at the end, I just do a little guided meditation for people, which is always inspired by what I witnessed in the dance. And then we all get together in little circle and, you know, Anyone want to share anything? So, and then people get a lot from each other's sharing as well. Someone says, I had this journey, I experienced this, I felt this, and someone else, yeah, do you know what? I had this and da, da, da, da, da, da.

36:18 So it's just a beautiful, um, very organic. But I would not be able to do that if it wasn't for all the learnings I've done in my life. Yeah. And it's that, that, that path, that journey that fuels that. And I'm very visual, so I'm having a blast watching what you're describing. And you're such a good storyteller. And, um, You know, I have an idea of like what color the doors are and then I'm looking at like all these strangers and I'm also having flashbacks of like in the U. S. you have like prom and then you have you go out to the club if you're with them.

36:59 That type of night owl person and you have people that are at the center of the stage is going wild and as you go away from the stage, um, it's less and less movement. And then you have the wall flowers that are standing, right? And you see the different phases of where people are naturally in one room. Yeah. Right. And then, um, It's very cool. It's very, I really like how everybody's a stranger. And then they're just dancing with each other and they're just kind of like moving. It reminds me of those movies where uh, someone's like Or not even like the movies, what do you call it? It's like flash dance or there's one guy where he's like at a picnic and there's music playing and everybody's just sitting and watching the music or the band, you know, there doesn't seem like they came to there to dance, but he's just going wild.

37:52 Like, he's just like, arms in the air, like nuts. And people are just like, what's what over. A couple of minutes goes by time goes by and you have like another person dancing with him. Just going like, just wailing their arms and just like, whatever, whatever, let's go. And then you have another person and then it's just like, it grows and grows and grows. And, um, it reminded me of that. I don't know if you've ever seen that. I don't remember, but it sounds like the sort of scene I would have seen. Did you ever see a film called Men Who Stare at Goats with George Clooney? I need to see that. I've been told to watch it. I think I've, I'm aware of it, but go ahead. I'm going to have to watch it now.

38:33 The idea is that the American army, the US army in this movie has decided to develop a kind of psychic division who can actually cause things to happen with their mind. And so all these guys are trying to, um, learn how to stare at a goat and make the goat fall unconscious. Just with their mind. Okay. It's a comedy. Okay. George Clooney is one of these guys. And suddenly they get a new, um, CEO comes in and I think it's Jeff Bridges. Okay. And they do the, who I love, and they're all lined up and he does the usual thing and walking up and down.

39:14 You're a sorry lot of pathetic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, he does all this. Then he suddenly goes, then he stops and he goes. Let's dance. And suddenly there's music on and they're all dancing and they're all getting into a whole trippy kind of dance, but George Clooney can't let go. He's really self conscious, right? Jeff Richards go up to him and says, let go. That's an order. And George goes, Oh, okay. And he lets go and gets into this incredible dance. And it's a fantastic scene. You know, it's that kind of tip over from really self conscious hanging on. How can I survive this?

39:54 Which a lot of us experience that in our lives, at least some of the time, and then just let go. That's an order. That's an order. Completely lets it go. And he's wildly, you know, moving around the room. It's a beautiful, beautiful scene. You know what? In a past life, I was toying with the idea of being a DJ and my mind was like, that would be so cool if I recorded Jeff Bridges Bridges His voice saying, Hey! Let go. That's an order. And then the beat drops. Boom, boom, boom.

40:34 But I think I think only a certain generation or like only only certain people that saw that movie would get it But yeah, it's universal let go and then you know, boom, boom, boom, which is yeah That's you know, what people don't give dancing that much credit where it's it's not It's needed, right? Where, like, what if you, oh, like, okay, another movie, um, Footloose. Yeah, I thought you were going to say that. Yes, similar stuff, right? Where just people are just very stiff, but you, you loosen up and you start to be more creative. You're happy, you're excited about life. Um, well, so moving forward, there's another thing.

41:18 I, I know that we're, we're running low on time right now, so But I wanted to get into Palawa, because I think, and I, I'm probably butchering the pronunciation, but I think that was the next thing that you got into. And I want to give it some space because it sounds interesting. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah. So, um, a very good friend of mine, who's Australian, went back to Australia and came back 15 years later. And another mutual friend, I was going to go down for lunch. She said, great, Julie's back from Australia. Let's have lunch together. And I've, I've picked up something in her tone, I thought, I think she's a bit of an operator, she's always setting things up, right?

42:00 Always in a good way. If we're having lunch, I say, Julie, what have you been doing for the last 15 years? Right? Yeah. She goes, um, you know, what have you been doing in Australia? Pellewa, she says. It's a great, what's that? She said, Pellewa means radical shift in consciousness. Ooh. And I went, I looked at the other woman and the other woman looked at me and I said, this is a setup. And she went, do you want to do it? I said, yeah. So we said to Julie, how'd you do it? She said, it's a two day workshop. Okay. Will you do the workshop just for us too? Yeah. Will you do it next week? Yeah. So the following week I was on this workshop that I hadn't only heard about seven days before, but it was the word radical shift in consciousness.

42:47 I thought, how could I not do that? So, I've now trained as a teacher myself, so I now run the workshop. And Pellewa is an energy. It comes direct from source. It's a very fine energy. And it interacts with the consciousness of the recipient directly. So if I'm having a Pellewa treatment. I, I just lie down and the practitioner calls in the Pellewa energy. It's, there's no contact. It's a non hands off treatment and it can be done distant or in person.

43:29 Okay. So I could be lying on my bed in my house, the practitioner, wherever they are, calls in the Pellewa and they hold that sacred space for the 60 minutes. The Pellewa comes directly to me and my consciousness makes an agreement with the Pellewa as to what my consciousness needs. To make the shift I need to make right now. And this is your consciousness that you're, your awareness, consciousness, like, you know, I'm not aware because my consciousness is on so many different levels, so the majority of my consciousness is at, is below my conscious awareness, like, like the iceberg thing.

44:14 So only, only a small, only a, like a relatively small section of my of my consciousness is in my awake awareness. Okay. And the rest of it is below my conscious level. This is true for everybody. So when the Pellewa does the, like, does the deal with my consciousness, it's almost like a sort of integration of all of my consciousness, which knows best on my behalf, knows better than my ego knows. My ego thinks it knows what's best for me, but it doesn't. My consciousness does. But I may not always be aware of that.

44:54 So this is all happening at subconscious level. And Pellewa then delivers whatever activation is required to activate me internally to then be able to make the change I need to make. So I then come out at the end of the 60 minutes and something has fundamentally changed. within me, and I might have a very clear memory of what's happened in the treatment. I may have clear thoughts, emotions, messages, visuals. Or I may have just fallen asleep, or I may have just gone off on a weird kind of trippy thing where I, I just have, it's just like a blur, or I might wake up and think, Oh my God, I've no idea what happened, but I'm exhausted.

45:42 I can feel like there's a massive workout going on inside. Or I might wake up and think, Oh, I'm so refreshed. I'm so relaxed. Or I might come back and go, Oh my God, I've got so much energy, right? I'm going to record a podcast. I'm going to write this. I'm going to clean the kitchen, you know, I'm going to call that person because each moment in our lives, the next step for us. is unique in that moment. So when I run the workshop, I've got people coming along who want to learn how to facilitate that. So you can imagine these weekends are really amazing.

46:23 Wow. And I'm like thinking, I'm like, is so Pellewa is. a source energy. So it's almost like it has its own personality or like it's an ancient entity type of thing. And it's going in and it's doing its work because it's been working with people for a long time. That's the, that's the vibe I'm getting. Yes. I wouldn't say entity. I think you could say a power, an energy. It, it, it doesn't have a personality or a, an ego or anything like that. Okay, so it's interesting, like, like a, like a power, like a frequency, like a But it has an intelligence, but it's not an intelligence that we as humans could really conceive of.

47:10 Interesting. Wow. That's, that sounds like another very deep, deep path to understand. And um, it's almost like, uh, for some, based off of what you're saying, when you come out of it for some, it's almost like a psychedelic trip because of, uh, releasing energies. Things coming into awareness. Because, you know, like when we have a dream, sometimes the dream is incredibly colorful and exciting and interesting because we've got so much capacity within us for creative visualization and imagination. And also for each person, each experience will be different depending on where they're at.

47:52 Wow, lots of really cool stuff you've been doing. I know there's so much cool stuff in the world, honestly. And that's like, that's, that's a great part about this capacity to be and remain curious because you can be filled with stories, filled with, Experiences and I love how you're like, can, can we just, can we do this next week? Can you, can you, can you show us let let's go? Like, I don't care if this is a setup. Let's just, let's go. Let's do this. I love it. It was really nice actually doing it. The three of us, cause we all knew each other really, really well and loved each other. So it was just a lovely experience. That's so cool.

48:33 Wow. I've got one coming up. I've got a workshop coming up and, um, two of the people coming are a mother and daughter. Mm. We'll do it together. Oh, yeah. That's going to totally, uh, solidify that relationship. I mean, the, the parent and the, uh, the child connecting and seeing each other. The child is an adult, of course, but. Yeah. You know, so they'll be able to give each other treatments. It'll just be amazing. We're, we're, we're moving forward into a new world for sure. And I wanted to end with that, where with all that you've learned and that you're experiencing, right?

49:15 And I feel like you also have, uh, A wide range of people that you work with from successful entrepreneurs to, um, business owners. And do you, I'm actually curious, the type of people that you work with, is it a wide range of people? And, uh, cause I can only imagine only so many people would be open to this. Like, I wonder like how the, how does that dynamic work for you? Yeah, I'd say, um, the way I describe it is I work, tend, the people who tend to be attracted to work with me are people who are, who are on the expansive path. So they've already made that choice. They're already on that path.

49:56 And when we're on that path, we need all sorts of different kinds of nourishment. You mentioned the hero's journey earlier on. Yeah. In the hero's journey, there's a point where the, the, the hero is kind of going through a forest and they've got to get to the dragon on the other side, and they're going to be asked a question, and they've got to give the right answer, and they've got to hand them something, and they don't know what to In the middle of the forest, they meet a gnome who peers out of nowhere and goes, right, the question they're going to ask is this, and the answer you give is this, and here's the thing you need to give them, right? And they give them, give, helps the hero get through the forest and get to the, you know, hero gets to the dragon, does what they need to do.

50:37 They come through there, the hero, and everybody goes, hero, we love you. Fantastic. Right. They don't go gnome. You're amazing. The gnome was somebody along the way who gave them a helping hand. I'm the gnome. I give someone a helping hand on their path, you know, and they go, right, I, people, as people go along their path, they go, right, I need another kind of help here or the kind of help there. And this is why I invite people to listen to my podcast, which I'm jumping the gun by saying that because when they do that, they will get a sense of if my energy, my vibration feels like it resonates.

51:17 With where they are and where they want to go next, and people know that intuitively. So when people contact me, they normally say, I'm contacting you, I'm not really sure why. I've just got this feeling that it might be a good thing. And sometimes it's one conversation and sometimes we work together for 30 years. You just never know. So people self select. And some, as you say, some are very wealthy, some are not. Some are men, some are women, they're all adults because there are other people who specialize more of, you know, more with younger people. Um, but they are people who've chosen to be on the expansive path and who've decided that they are interested in getting help and who've got the sort of sense of self-worth that they are not ashamed about looking for some help.

52:12 Mm-Hmm. Yes. You know, so they dealt with that issue. So they're ready to say, I wanna ask for some help. This is what I want. I like how you put that where you're like, this is where I fit on your hero's journey. And um, so going into your podcast, what is the name of your podcast? And I would say, what's the easiest or like what platforms do you usually tend to go to? Okay. So it's called Truth and Transcendence. And the and is the squirrelly ampersand. Uh, if people like to listen to podcasts on a browser, the easiest way is just to go to my website, beingspace.

52:56 world, and you just find podcast in the menu. So it's right on there. Um, if you have a favorite podcast app, it'll be on your favorite podcast app. It's on all of them. So you can just find it. Truth and transcendence. Nice. Yeah. And, and also, uh, I'll make that like easier to find for people on your, uh, on your page for sure. I like how you're doing a podcast as well. And um, it's, it's cool to connect with people. It's cool to have conversations. Um, I, I think, do you interview people or is it a mixture of you talking about what you want to talk about?

53:38 I'm curious. It's, yeah, I kind of alternate. Okay. At the moment, I'm doing one episode a week, alternating between a guest episode and solo. Uh, but in the autumn, I'm going to start doing two a week, a solo and a guest episode each week. So that's going to be three a week or one you, one guest? Two a week. Two a week instead of one. Uh, okay, cool. Yeah. She's you're going for it. Let's go. I know. I never planned. Everyone said, you've got to do a podcast. You've got to do a podcast. You've got a great voice. Thank you. You do a podcast. You know what goes into this? That's awesome.

54:18 Well, yeah, you have the voice for it. You have the personality for it. This it's storytelling, especially if you're doing a lot of solo episodes. Um, And I can totally like listen to you all day for sure. You have that type of voice. Yeah, no, no problem. Uh, it's been a pleasure chatting with you and getting a small glimpse of your world. So thank you for coming on. I really appreciate you. It's been such a pleasure. Thank you.