#86 Beyond Traditional Meditation | Rudy Daniel

0:00 it's not possible to force your mind to do anything. The only way you can do something with your mind is. Everything is made of vibration. It's easy to understand. And it's also easy to understand that we resonate with vibrations. we tried to emphasize all the great vibrations known to Mankind through these ancient techniques and this ancient and modern understanding of what resonates with people. So we met after a week we met and I asked him, well, did you think about it? And he said, yeah, every single day. We are back. So today's guest is Rudy Daniel.

0:41 He's an author, CEO, and co founder of the Affirmate App. Rudy has explored philosophies of Eastern traditions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Zen, Tao, and much more. Alongside with exploring Western philosophy, science, and the arts, Rudy's mission is to inspire profound change. Through mindfulness and philosophical exploration, Rudy, Daniel, thank you for coming on the show. How's it going, man? Jonathan, thank you so much for having me. Great to be here today. It's a great day. It's a beautiful day. I'm excited to talk to you. Yeah. So lots going on in the world. Lots going on internally as well. And what helps a lot with that, as you definitely know.

1:26 So before we get into that, let's get to know you, my friend, what started you on this journey? What, what started your exploration and why meditation? Oh, so a lot of questions in one question. So how, yeah, sorry. All right. So what No, no, that's this journey? That's cool. That's cool. Um, actually I, I do feel like I'm, you know, the average person going after life and trying to, um, get all the, you know, the benefits of life to myself, to my friends, to my family and, you know, people I care about. Uh, but, um, Also, um, I don't want to say preaching, but I'm trying to get across the idea that we can do that in a more profound way, because You know, people getting after it, um, you know, after life, let's say that they're going through the, for the curriculum of life and most of it generates anxiety and fear and depression.

2:32 And that's what happens to adults. Uh, because you have, you know, this overwhelming experience of life, work, commitment, family, uh, titles that people put on you, like today you're a husband, Or you're a boss or you're a manager or you need to do this and that and a lot of study shows that depression anxiety would be the biggest pandemic coming up in the, you know, next few years. So that's kind of shows you where is the mindset of people today. So the message I'm trying to convey is do all the things you do, but do it in a more mindful way. Be aware of life, be excited about life, you know, don't treat life as if it were some kind of.

3:16 You know, horrific chore that you need to drag all your life and you need to, you know, uh, battle demons and go to war every day. This is what, you know, generating, um, all of this. Anxiety issues, uh, in my opinion, so I'm the kind of average person, but I'm doing it in a more, you know, way that they can enjoy life rather than using it as a, you know, vehicle that just drags my mind. Uh, you know, inner self around, Hmm. Have you dealt with anxiety in the past and just overburnt, like burnt that burnout?

4:01 Like of course. Yeah, I've been dealing with anxiety, you know, most of my adolescence and my adult life, um, anxiety, fear. Um, I don't know if depression, but I did feel, you know, a lot of sadness, uh, from time to time. So I can relate to that as well. Maybe depression is more like a clinical condition. So I don't want to touch on that, but. I would say that I still feel anxiety from time to time. It's not like, um, you know, I'm floating on air every time, but, but, but I am aware that this is a condition, um, that comes and goes like everything else in life.

4:44 Basically life is very transient. If you look at the universe, you can see that everything is changeable and nothing is permanent. yeah. Yeah. So anxiety, I would say is the illusion or maybe fear. Uh, let's be more precise. I would say that fear is the illusion of permanency. You think you're going to be stuck like that forever. So this is the illusion. This is what people are so afraid of. Oh my God, it's going to stay this way forever. And so today when I get anxiety or I get, you know, fear, I'm like, Oh, cool. It's like it's temporary, you know, it will, it will pass. So, um, dealing with fear, anxiety, and I appreciate you being authentic and vulnerable.

5:27 Um, I'm sure you're definitely not alone in this. I've, I've dealt and continue to deal with anxiety for sure. But um, There's different coping mechanisms, right? There's different ways to deal with anxiety, some healthy, some not healthy. Um, what, uh, I'm, I'm curious, what was your journey with figuring out how to deal with that? What did you start with? If, if you don't mind sharing I would love to share, you know, I think that, um, I'm kind of, you know, when, when people ask me who am I, um, I like to say that, um, treat me as a message.

6:08 You know, rather than a messenger and things I have to say, uh, if they inspire you, I've done something positive. Uh, so I don't mind talk about these things. I'm absolutely excited to talk about these things. And I, and I think that, you know, every person have this immense knowledge and You know things they can share and we tend to close up a society and only share it with our, you know Friends or family so if I have the opportunity to speak on shows and tell people You know, i'm just just an ordinary human and this is how it feels So maybe it will be more relatable to you rather than saying some doctrines or, you know, teachings or something like that.

6:54 So I think that, um, your question was how to deal with anxiety. Um, Well, what are some ways that you have chosen to deal with it in the past? In the past versus now? Hmm. Mm I think that The essence is what they just said, that anxiety, uh, anxiety, we can call it anxiety fear. You know, it's kind of the same thing. It's just a different form of fear. Uh, so the delusion is the permanency. I think that if you understand. That principle, it can take you to a very long distance in terms of inner understanding.

7:38 But personally, for me, it wasn't so easy. It's not just like I came across with this spot and I was like, Oh my God, my life has changed. It's been a long journey for me. And when I was about 32, 33 years old, uh, I started to get tired of life. I was, you know, entrepreneurial most of my life. And, and I did. A lot of startups and, and it, it took a toll, um, and I felt, know, completely drained. And it seems that everything was becoming boring and dull and nothing to accomplish anymore. And although, uh, I had some nice successes and I had, um, Tons of failures as well, but overall I had a good life and I mean, if you were to look from the outside, you would say, man, like this guy's living, living in his dream, but inside I felt broken.

8:37 I felt that I don't know what to do. So I started from this low point to take a look at myself from within. Try to understand the most fundamental. The fundamental question I had was, who am I, basically, um, because I'm not my name. You know, that's, that's, that was pretty obvious for me because I never called myself from within Rudy. It's like, Hey, Rudy, you know, it's like, it's a different kind of dialogue. So I was very interested in this fundamental question, who am I? What is this place? I mean, it seems very mundane, um, to everybody.

9:22 I mean, this place is the earth, duh, but really like look, look, look above we're on a rock floating in the cosmos and you buying stocks and, and, and fighting over politics, it looks kind of ridiculous, so I started to dig into that and, and it took me. Few years of studying and experimenting and philosophizing mostly with myself at night when no one was around, uh, until I understood that this is a, you know, very beautiful, profound game we call life. And, uh, we don't have to be in depression or anxiety.

10:05 Uh, we can enjoy this journey because it is what it is. It's a journey. It's a progress. It's a process. And we, uh, You know, what we call I are not things, uh, we are processes where we develop. So, for example, you used to call yourself I when you were five years old and you called yourself I ten years ago and you still call yourself I today, but you changed, haven't you? Like things change all the time, but the sensation of I persists. So what does it tell you? It tells you that the fundamental, fundamental thing, you call yourself I. Never changes, but everything around is changing all the environment, all the experiences changing.

10:49 And if you start to question the attributes you, um, put in yourself, like your name, your race, your gender, you will see that everything is transient and you cannot. Place your finger on the thing you call I so when, when a person do this kind of self inquiry or, you know, um, philosophizing about this stuff experimentally, I'm not talking about, you know, just, just thoughts, but actually experiment with it. I think that, um, sooner or later, people will come to a realization that. It's a beautiful game, and we can enjoy it, and we can share it, and we can co exist and live beautifully.

11:34 Hmm. I like how you said that you don't call yourself by your name. And I'm surprised I haven't thought of that. Because I consider myself a mindful person, but Yeah, I don't say, Alright, John, let's do this. I'm like, alright. I just say, let's do this. And I awkwardly notice I'm like, it's just me. It's not us, but sometimes I say us. So maybe that's something I have to work on. Why I say us, you know, maybe there's two more than one person there, but it's interesting to, to do that self reflection and you're like, yeah, I do say and reference myself as I, since I can, I can remember.

12:19 And to that point. Especially when you think of us on a rock floating in space, all the other problems seem to fade away because it's it's insignificant. There's something bigger going on. There's a, there's, there's definitely something bigger going on. So I like that, that process that you went through. So meditation, I want to highlight that because that is the theme of your solution, your app. Why meditation for you? You could have done yoga. Some people hike, some people go to the gym, some people try to, you know, some people take it out on other people.

13:05 Some people yell, scream, there's all kinds of ways to, to, to, To just be present be calm and before we I don't know. I think you said this before we hit record something very key, which was as an entrepreneur is very important to be calm and My question to you is what made you say meditations? That's it a great question. I think, um, just, just Before I answer that, I want to, I want to insist on the terminology because it is important. Um, we're using language, so this is the way we kind of share, sharing knowledge mostly, and it's, it's important to understand what we're talking about.

13:50 So, uh, there are two terms which are very popular today. One of them is mindfulness and the other term is meditation. So let's talk about mindfulness first. So. Basically mindfulness is kind of the backdrop of all the methods. It literally says the thing itself, it's being mindful or being full of mind. So what you're basically doing is you're paying attention in a more profound way to life. It doesn't matter what you do. If you're doing it mindful or you're full of mind, your ability to sense and be more sensitive to what is going around you is far greater than being laser focused on, you know, one specific thing.

14:40 So this is mindfulness in regards to mindfulness. We have a lot of methods. One of the methods, at least in the Western culture, we call it meditation. So the way, uh, the Western culture. imagines meditation is give or take the, the, the thing I'm going to. Emphasize right now. So people use it as a practice as they kind of, you know, use a gym. I meditate 10 minutes a day. I meditate 15 minutes a day. I do it every day. So I'm good. Um, and usually the way the way people do that is, you know, they sit and they close their eyes and the inner process goes like this.

15:26 It's like, I'm meditating now. Okay, I'm not supposed to think of anything doing good. Oh, it's a bit itchy. Oh, my leg is itchy. Is it cold? Oh, no, I think it's all. Oh, crap. I just interrupted the meditation. Oh, no. Should I should I begin all over again? Oh, so it's let's say you're doing 10 minutes of meditation, nine minutes of The, the 10 minute meditation is basically you're talking to yourself inside your head. And it's like, it's the first sign of madness when you're talking to yourself. So this is what the Western idea of meditation is. And this is not what I'm talking about.

16:07 When I'm talking about meditation, I'm talking about your essence as what you call yourself. I, we are in essence meditation. Meditation is a state that what you mean. when you say I is in a condition before it was colored by experiences, by any experience. Um, you can think of it like that. When you say I am after the I am, there is a kind of way to describe. So, I am Jonathan. I am podcast host.

16:47 I am this. I am angry. I am, I'm loving, but before it was colored by your experience, what is the, I am so what the Eastern culture says about meditation, that meditation is the state of the, I am. In essence, it's the state of no mind or a state of Nirvana or the state of, um, peace or bliss. And we don't need to do anything to get there. By default, we are meditation. So this is the ground where we can start from when we think about meditation.

17:32 So what, what I saw, um, in the Western culture is the. Kind of abuse of, um, this idea that was born in, in the East and was cultivated in the East and was brought to the West with a better translation. And people try to practice it in a wrong way. So what I'm trying to convey is, when you are meditating, you can do it while you're cooking. You can do it while you're talking to your friend. You can do it while you're walking. your, it's the essence of your being. So, not trying to meditate.

18:12 Because when you try to meditate, It's like you are trying to steal your own watch. It doesn't make any sense. And, and this is the confusion. This is why people give up. I talked to numerous people and say, well, how was your meditation experience? Did you ever meditate? And like, yeah, I used to meditate, but now I'm not doing it anymore. Like why? So two main reasons. One, one of them is what they just, um, um, said is, is about the practice itself, which is kind of confusing to people. And the other one is. You know, we are very conditioned to be with people or with our, you know, phones or TV, we're always distracted by, uh, life, uh, by interactions.

18:58 So, um, in the practice, in the Western practice of meditation, you are alone with yourself. And when you're alone with yourself and you become quiet, a lot of thoughts and emotions are coming up and they might be good emotions. But mostly it can be dead emotions, you know? Oh, it's kind of scary to be alone, you know? Because who knows who lives inside your head? Everybody is afraid of that, you know? What kind of, what kind of thoughts they really carry within. So, these, these two reasons are the reasons why people are not engaging.

19:38 In the beautiful practice of meditation. And I'm here to kind of change the way people perceive it and how they can engage with it. And me and my amazing co founder, we came up with this beautiful idea of how to create a 90 second practice, which people can engage in mindfulness, meditation, and enhance their day by being here. And now. Not in a quantitative kind of practice or a DLG, but in a quality qualitative.

20:18 So we prefer quality over quantity, and this is the basic idea of being here. And now it's beyond the boundaries of time. So you don't need really 10 minutes or 50 minutes. Once you, once you get the idea of who you are and what you're doing, you can do it anytime, anywhere. And hopefully, you know, we'll get the message across. This is the mission. like how you said I am meditation and um me being silly in my head. I'm like i'm thinking of Saying I am Batman, you know Just I am and you embody that I like it a lot because yeah, you can't steal your own watch Which is yeah, it's it's good right there.

21:08 You can't steal your watch. It's about the I am beyond Clearing the mind and it's almost impossibly clear the mind anyways So you You started to mention your app and, um, let's get into the app. You have an experience that's short and to your point. Yeah. Just like anybody that has been in an extreme situation where you, you got into a car accident and times. Tends to slow down. I think you're referencing the same thing. Time is an illusion and it really depends on what you're experiencing.

21:51 So let's get into the app. What kind of experience should someone expect using the affirmate app? question. And you, you touched upon something very beautiful. And I just, I just want to emphasize it before we go to the app. You said that It's not possible like to quiet or calm your mind, uh, with, you know, with force this, that's what you said. And I think it's, it's a key understanding. People are, and I talk a lot with people about this matters and a lot of them say, you must quiet your mind or you must, you know, you must boss around your mind.

22:32 And I say, okay, good luck with that because you know, it seems to me that the mind is far superior to your wills. Otherwise you all be rich and, and, uh, you know, pumped bodies and your life would be amazing. You would, you wouldn't have the experience of bad feelings. If you were such a master of your mind, it's not possible to force your mind to do anything. The only way you can do something with your mind is. A way of love, acceptance, forgiveness, understanding. It's really not about forcing, and there's a lot of philosophy about that in the East as well.

23:15 It's called the way it's the way of not forcing. It's an art and I'm just mentioning it because it relates to meditation. People try to fight their mind in meditation. No, don't think about this. Don't think about that. It's like, you know, don't think about elephants. Just, just do it right now. Do not think about that. Okay, it's, you know, it's not possible. So don't fight the mind. The mind will win if you fight. Agree. I wanted to touch upon that. So you ask what kind of experience people are, I should expect when they're using Afro Made. Um, I, I want to expand a bit about what is the, the practice itself.

23:58 As I said, it's really short. It's 90 seconds, but it has a, has a great secret to it. And the secret is that we create something unique that we call a tangible connection. So it's, um, not an app that guides you, uh, through a meditation session, but it's rather a very short session divided into two sections. One of them is the preparation. We call it cleansing. And the other one is called the affirmating. So. You take an item that is relatable to you. Let's say, for example, if you have a ring or you have a necklace like I do, or a crystal at home, and you involve the item into the practice itself.

24:42 So what we did, uh, we took, um, positive self affirmations as words, enhance them with, um, Instruments that are using sound healing. We actually went to a very special sound healing room and recorded, um, All the instruments with an expert, then we took the words themselves and through technology, um, we transform them into light vibration that pulse. So you take your item, you place it on the phone, and while the practice is going, you, you are experiencing a visual and auditory experience, you can hear and see.

25:23 And you can see how your item absorbs the light and sound frequencies. And then. What you do with the item as you use it as a gentle reminder of your intention. So if, if, uh, this morning has started with the intention of gratitude, for example, and you did the practice, so you take the ring back and then you, you know, you're off with your day and you have these exchanges at work or whatever, and you are totally, you know, immersed in, in the matrix, let's say, and then you, you take a glimpse at your ring and you say, Oh, This is my intention for today and it grounds you and we as people have been using this technique for thousands of years when we're going to sacred places or we're going to you know a church or whatever we take items with us and we bless them and kind of want to take the energy with us back.

26:17 So this is what we did and this is what we're trying to do here. You just need to remember, create this tangible connection, set your intention and go on with your day. It reminds me of an advanced, a very advanced spiritual technology version of a sticky note. Instead of putting it on your forehead, when you look in the mirror, you're like, Oh, that's right. That's good. It's spiritual sticking out. there you go. That's your, that's your next product right there. It's, it's spiritually charged.

26:57 Um, I like, and I like the, the setting attention mixed in with, uh, the frequencies and energies, especially you recording healing energies. I want to dive into that. Uh, because on this show, we've spoken to the fact that the S frequencies have that power, right? Everything's made out of frequencies. That's just the language of our, our world. So let's dive into that. What kind of frequencies could one expect if you want to dive into that a little bit more. Sure, sure. So, so maybe let's, um, let's start with the terminology because a lot of people talk, talk about that. Um, usually you hear the terms vibration and frequency.

27:42 So because there's a lot of YouTube videos, um, done, but by a lot of people, you know, there's a lot of people in the world and obviously some videos are educating and some are just, you know, a waste of your intellectual. Um, space, That's a nice way to put it. you know, let's be gentle about, um, everyone deserves the freedom of, of speech and, um, how they carry themselves. But, but let's just talk about the facts since in a scientific way, a vibration is, is a pulse. Okay. Basically it has the upside of the vibration and the downside of the vibration, and you can see it in any kind of vibration.

28:28 It doesn't matter. what kind you can look at it in music or in water when you see waves or in particle when you're looking for a microscope. So this is why, um, scientists say that everything is made of vibration. It's a very clear statement to anyone who has ever been interested in the world of science and doesn't matter from what practice a frequency. Is the way to measure the distance between a vibration. So in the vibration you have the upside and the downside. So basically the frequency is the measurement between the two upsides or between the two downsides.

29:11 This is it. So it's not anything woo woo and it's not anything spiritual, you know? So, um, vibration is very easy to understand. So what I'm basically saying that. Everything is made of vibration. It's easy to understand. And it's also easy to understand that we resonate with vibrations. How can we know that? Well, if you listen to music that you like, for example, it resonates with you. So you are absorbing a certain vibration. It's okay that you call it a song or a band, but if you're going, you know, to the essence of what it is happening right now.

29:55 Your eardrum is a mu, you know, just a mechanism that, uh, transform this vibration into this sensation in your body and you're feeling good. So this is what hap what happens in contrast to that, if you are on the road and somebody, you know, uses the horn like crazy. It's also a vibration, but it doesn't resonate as well, um, as, as the music. So you can be harmonized with the certain, certain vibration, or you can be in a dissonance with a certain vibration.

30:35 So when people talk about healing vibrations or good or bad vibrations, we can really dumb it down to experience. What is your experience with vibration? Same thing with light, for example, you can have a really beautiful experience of light vibrations as you observe the sun when the sun is, you know, just in the right spot in the sky. It's not too bright. It's not too hot. It's brilliant. And you're enjoying nature and you're like, Oh, give me more of that. Yeah. Or, you know, when it's too hot, you're in the desert and you know, it's too bright and your eyes are like, Oh my God, make it stop wearing my sunglasses.

31:21 So this is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about healing vibrations or vibration that doesn't resonate well. And what we did is we tried to emphasize all the great vibrations known to Mankind through these ancient techniques and this ancient and modern understanding of what resonates with people. So as I mentioned, we did it in a sound healing room that there was a certain arrangement of crystals and certain arrangement of sound barriers. So everything is perfect. And we did the same with light. So when we are these vibrations to you, We're basically trying to get you in the best state we can, you know, possibly do with this instrument.

32:13 And it's up to you to receive them. So if I were to break that down with the frequency and the vibration being the measurement the The frequency measurement of the vibration. Yeah. Exactly. More importantly, focus on the experience. And it's your experience, your eyes, your body. And I literally subject yesterday and I was like, we're just, uh, experienced the world with vibration and we are experienced, which is the translation, which is the experience.

33:07 So I like how you brought very much. So, and so for this app experience, this app, where do they go? Is it? iPhones and Androids. Do you have to go on a PC? How does that work? So it's available on both platforms. You just go to our website, it's appermade. app, and you literally have the, the, uh, links to download on iOS or Android. You can register through our website. Uh, you can, um, read about it. We really, uh, invested in the information.

33:47 So you have a lot of, everything that they talk about is also written on the website. And, um, if you want to really dive deep. On, on every practice that you do, we have broken down the elements that, um, composing the, the whole, uh, orchestra of the experience. And you can actually tap each element and read about it. So if you're interested in that, you know, it's, it's very like, um, deep in terms of, uh, knowledge. And I'm curious, how long Oh, wow. Um, Actually, there's a cool story behind it, if you don't mind. Um, so about three years ago, I think it's three years, maybe three and a half, I had this crazy dream.

34:33 Um, you know how you get these vivid dreams that you remember a lot of details. So I had this, I had this dream and I saw the app in a dream. And I saw how people from all walks of life can engage in mindfulness. So it was, you know, very intense and I woke up in the middle of the night and my entrepreneurial mind started to think, Oh, well, how, how can I make it work? But at the time, um, I was very deep in my tech career. I worked for other companies as well. And, you know, I kind of, kind of put it aside and, and I thought that this is not the right time. And after, um, Maybe a year and a half, two years.

35:17 I was sitting with my friend, which is today, my co founder, uh, Roy, and we were sitting on his balcony and, um, discussing dreams, which, uh, is an interesting topic on itself. So, um, And I told him about the dream and he got really excited. Um, and I said, you know what, you know, maybe you're excited now, but like, like many ideas, you will not be as excited tomorrow or after tomorrow. So maybe just think about it and, and let's meet in some time. And if you're still excited, let's see what we can do. So we met after a week we met and I asked him, well, did you think about it?

35:58 And he said, yeah, every single day. Ha ha And he was very excited and I was very excited and it took us 14 months, uh, including a lot of research and a lot of development. And we tried to invest a lot in the way that this app behaves and feels, and it's nothing like you have experienced. And there's a good reason for that. Um, I think that mindfulness and part of mindfulness, like for me, in my, in my, in my life, um, it is important for me to set the scene. Okay. Before I do anything like if you treat your day with small rituals, for example, you want to do something you want to meditate or you want to meditate on something or you want to do some kind of a ritual.

36:42 It is important that you set the proper, um. Um, I would say the setting, you know, it could be candles, it could be incense, it could be anything really to kind of get you in, uh, you know what I mean? So it's not just, you have to kind of prepare yourself, get yourself in the condition. Um, and this is what we did with the app as well. Obviously, it's more complicated that, you know, lighting up an incense because we cannot do it, uh, With an app. Well, not yet, at least. Uh, so we tried to do it, do it with the UI, UX and all the feeling and everything that it provokes.

37:26 So yeah, I really suggest people to go try it out. It's, it's free to use and you can also buy the premium version, but you can use it for free. It will give you, it will give you a taste, you know, everything that they say, just words. I suggest you go and do the experience on your own. Mmm. I like the story. I like the story. I'm a big person on dreams because I have very vivid dreams myself. And so, so to that point, I'm very curious. How would you compare dreams and that experience to meditation?

38:10 That's, that's a really deep question, and I ponder a lot about dreams. Um, you know, I think that I don't have all the answers, obviously. No one does. But are a good clue for reality. Um, tell you why I think that. Because you dream, Especially if it's a vivid dream, like you are a subject in a world and you have an objective experience, meaning that you can meet people or you can see stuff, you know, what we call matter or material stuff. And it's very convincing in dreams. And you actually feel like the subject of the experience.

38:51 You can be Jonathan in the dream, for example. I mean, you can actually feel your body. You can look at your body and you interact with people. And when you wake up, you realize, Oh, I wasn't Jonathan. I was the dream. was the whole dream. The people in my dream, the buildings in my dream, the heat, the cold, the, the, the fear, everything, the underlying reality. was not the subject in a dream, but it was the dream itself. I was the dream itself. So it kind of gives us a glimpse to the power of consciousness and what consciousness might like.

39:32 So what dream suggests is that consciousness has the power to create a subject object relationship and isolate itself as the subject In the experience, which is amazing if you think about it. So it kind of gets you, you know, gets you to the point of asking the next question, well, are we in the dreams? This is why dreams are so powerful. And, and, and I encourage people to, to dive deeper into these experiences. It's, it's so, wow. It's mind blowing every time. I'm, I'm, you know, every morning I'm blown away.

40:12 Oh my God. I was so convinced I was hooked. I thought I am so and so, you know, but I wasn't. was just lying in my bed. yeah. That reminds me of times where I'm dreaming and I have all the things I wanted on my bucket list. And then you wake up and you're like, Crap. I thought I was there. I thought I made it. You made it. to reality, I'm like, how did I believe that was happening when I was dreaming? Like, I just accepted it immediately, you know? And that's another freaky thing, right?

40:53 That, um, how easily one can be deceived. into thinking a false reality without reference to how it came to be. And I, that's why I see so much importance in the practice of being present because you, in my opinion, this is what happens to me when I'm, the more present I am, the more I meditate, the more easier it is to be present. And in that presence, I am, I am able to ask those questions of. How did I get here in this? Let's say this waking life is a dream.

41:36 I feel like being present allows you to be that person that woke up from your waking dream and say, how did I get here? Right? You're, you're applying what happened to you when you were dreaming and then you woke up and like, Oh, well, that wasn't real meditation for me. Is that for the waking life? I hope I was clear about that. Yeah, 100%. I think that a lot of people ponder about that question. I actually have small kids. Um, and I asked them all the time, like, Aren't you surprised that you're here? Like, tell me, tell me of your experience. I mean, a few, a few years back, you weren't here.

42:18 Aren't you surprised that you're here? And they're like, nope, all is clear. I'm here and that's it, you know? So, it's very easy. As in dreams, you know, um, you don't have the, the history of the dream, right? You just begin. With in a certain point space and time and you are so and so on doing, you know, sometimes crazy stuff like running away from, you know, armies or animals or whatever it is in your dream and you're not surprised by this like, Oh, yeah, that's what I'm doing. And it's kind of the same with this reality. When you ask people, what are you doing here?

42:58 Like, where did you come from? How was your consciousness before? And people get, you know, starstruck. They're like, what are you talking about? It's, this reality is very compelling. And this is why mindfulness is so important. It's not about cracking the system and, and, you know, understanding that you're above it, or all these spiritual games that people play. It's just appreciating the opportunity. Just think of it. If you were to realize, and it happens to a lot of people. It happened to me several times that you wake up in the dream.

43:38 Did it ever happen to you? Wake up. Oh, Like you realize, like you realize, you Yeah. have that. So, so this is, this is like, um, you can call it like a brief enlightenment, like you just realized that this world you thought was real, it's not. It's a dream. And how did it make you feel? Oh, you're asking me now. Yeah, I felt like now I'm in the sandbox and let's play. I wanted to play. exactly.

44:19 So this is why I encourage people to do realize where you are and then you can do whatever you want to do. And mostly what you will want to do is contribute, bring value. You say, it's a beautiful dream when playing with playing with myself. So I need to generate as much value as I can. Contribute as much as I can and it will be a wonderful experience. Sometimes frightening. You know, it doesn't mean that everything will go smoothly because this is part of the excitement. Like you want something to go south so you can appreciate them later on and the adversities in in some point become You know your your funny jokes when you sit with friends or the book you write or whatever it is So this is part of this play.

45:11 This is why I encourage people to be more mindful just to get a glimpse You into what a lot of people talk about. Well said. So as we close out today, out of everything that we spoke about on our journey today, what is one thing that you want to make sure everybody takes home from our conversation? I think that, um, do not believe in doctrines, do not believe in to be the answer. Experiment on your own. With what resonates with you because when you are holding on to beliefs you're creating doubt on the other side It comes together belief is another way to doubt But you know in a nice way, I believe but it's not been proven yet.

46:08 So it's it's very It's very misleading. It's a misleading thought, especially when people talk about unwavering belief. The only unwavering belief I can imagine to be good for you is unwavering belief in yourself because you have the experience of yourself. So there is no doubt about that. But have belief in other doctrines or other forms of systems will not bring you to, um, self evident experience. It will be just a belief system. So play with it, be with it, sit with it.

46:49 And while you are taking the journey, which we all are, do it with intention. I mean, you can wander around and do whatever you want. It's valid. If you want your life to take a certain direction, I strongly suggest that you do it with intention because intention is like pointing somewhere on the map and saying, this is where I want to go. And if you don't do it, life can take you to all different places. No, so it's really up to you. I think that most people would agree that they would prefer to point somewhere on the map. And enjoying the journey, but know where they're going. Hmm. Interesting. Cool.

47:29 Thanks for that. Let's say, someone likes your app. Let's say someone wants to connect with you. What's the best way for someone to connect with you? I mean now, um, we are so open to Talking with people, so you can just drop us a message in the contact form and we'll be happy to connect with you and answer any question. Uh, we do have a very extended ethic here on the website as well. But if you didn't find something that satisfies you and you want, um, um, to talk with us, me or Roy, you can just drop us a message and we'll be in touch with you.

48:12 Awesome. Well, Thanks for coming on the show, my friend. Uh, I, I enjoyed this journey today and, um, I'm looking forward to trying out that app myself Jonathan, thank you so much. And thank you for giving me the opportunity to talk about it. Um, as you can see, I'm quite excited about it because we just recently launched and, uh, you're giving me the opportunities, you know, is gold. So I appreciate it. And I also enjoyed your presence. You have very good energies. It was nice talking to you. And I hope that we talk in the future as well. for sure. Let's stay connected, man. Um, I love, I just have to throw this in there.

48:54 I love the fact that it came from a dream that just makes it even more sweeter of a deal, a more, it's just cool. It's just Thank you. Thanks again for coming on the show, man. Thank you very much.