Is Your Job Worth Going Back To After Maternity Leave? ft. Ben Fox

[00:00:00] Pregnancy Stories and Reality

​[00:00:00]

[00:00:00] Ben Fox: thing I tell everyone, but especially the about to be moms, is there's this you right now, and then there's this you after you have your first child,

there are two completely different

people, your priorities shift. mind and your body shift, like everything about your life will be different. It's really hard to plan for the new person that you're gonna become while you're this person who's been driven, and ambitious, and

[00:00:33] Danna: Energetic.

[00:00:34] Ben Fox: work. Yeah,

[00:00:35] Danna: Yeah.

[00:00:36] Ben Fox: to me, just the, the sleep deprivation

possibility is, is a mind fuck too. Like, you're not

gonna be

[00:00:45] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:00:46] Ben Fox: as much. You're not gonna be as energized,

[00:00:48] Danna: right.

[00:00:48] Ben Fox: and now you've got this little thing, this baby that you have to make sure is okay at all times of

[00:00:56] Danna: Yeah.

And

[00:00:57] Ben Fox: Hey, I'm Ben Fox, and I'm [00:01:00] today's guest on the So Freaking Healthy podcast. I'm a career coach that helps burnt out or misaligned leaders in tech quit their toxic jobs and get clarity about what's next. And in this episode, we're talking about maternity leave, to deal with it at your job, how to plan for it, and how to listen to yourself as a soon to be mom.

[00:01:23] Megan J. McCrory: Hey, Donna, how you doing today?

[00:01:25] Danna: I'm all right, Megan. How are you doing?

[00:01:27] Megan J. McCrory: Uh, I'm good. You know, um, I don't have any kids.

[00:01:31] Danna: I know, you lucky bitch. Yes, I know.

[00:01:35] Megan J. McCrory: And you've got two that, uh, are, are... One is officially an adult by now, and the other one's slowly becoming an adult.

[00:01:43] Danna: Yeah.

[00:01:44] Megan J. McCrory: So do you ever, do you remember the time when you were actually pregnant with them?

[00:01:48] Danna: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure.

[00:01:50] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:01:51] Danna: A hundred percent. No, actually the first pregnancy was gorgeous, and I was, like, just a hot mama. As soon as [00:02:00] he popped out, I was back to myself, and I was just feeling amazing, and it was great. Um, and with Mika it was harder because they're only 15 months apart. So I had a baby on the outside and a baby on the inside, and he would just always...

I'll put him on my hip, and he'll position himself on my belly and literally pushed him down to the point where I had to give birth, like, three weeks earlier because he was pushing him down. Um, um, but I don't know how we got into that tangent. But yeah, no, the, the pregnancies were okay. Mika's pregnancy was a little bit tougher, but generally I cannot complain.

[00:02:33] Megan J. McCrory: Well, the reason I'm asking is because... And I, I also don't know if this applies to you either because you never have worked like a real conventional job. You've always been a hustler. So did you

have any kind of like maternity leave, maternity plan, any kind of plan? 'Cause you're not a planner.

[00:02:47] Danna: I'm,

[00:02:47] Megan J. McCrory: right?

[00:02:48] Danna: No. Although I did, I did plan the pregnancy or, like, the birth. You know, they have this thing where they, they want you to plan the birth, and they give zero shits about it.

[00:02:58] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:02:58] Danna: that... There was that [00:03:00] plan. No, I actually... So when I was pregnant with Skye, we had just moved from a different canton to here.

I was already, like, seven months in, so it was kind of pointless to find a job in the new area 'cause I was like, "Well, I'm popping him out in a second, so it doesn't make sense." And then, as I said, Mika just showed up knocking on the door five minutes later. Um, so no, I didn't actually work then. I... Yeah.

[00:03:26] Megan J. McCrory: Okay. Well, that's not the case for a lot of women, I

[00:03:29] Danna: Yeah.

[00:03:29] Megan J. McCrory: Again, I don't have kids, so I've never had to deal with this. but I've had a lot of friends that have been uh, in the maternity way.

[00:03:39] Danna: Yeah.

[00:03:40] Megan J. McCrory: I'm also coming from the States where, like, maternity leave is just non-existent.

[00:03:48] Danna: You're showing up with still stitches. You're just still bleeding.

[00:03:52] Megan J. McCrory: yeah, they got the umbilical cord still hanging out, and they're walking back through the door getting their cup of coffee.

[00:03:57] Danna: Come back. Please don't fire me. [00:04:00] She's... Literally.

[00:04:02] Why Maternity Leave Matters

[00:04:02] Megan J. McCrory: well, okay, so we don't tech- we don't really talk about this very much. We talk about your kids, but they're older.

[00:04:07] Danna: Yeah.

[00:04:08] Megan J. McCrory: now we're talking about, like, perimenopause and menopause, and we thought, like, "Well, let's hold on a minute. We have younger women who listen to our show. Let's, let's do an episode on maternity leave." And I found this guy, and I know all of you ladies are going, "What?

A guy is gonna tell us about how to do maternity leave

[00:04:23] Danna: Tell me he's white too.

[00:04:24] Megan J. McCrory: yeah,

[00:04:25] Danna: He's white.

[00:04:25] Megan J. McCrory: guy. Yeah. And, um, and yeah, and so I just thought... I... Now, I listened to this guy, and he's got a really nice voice.

[00:04:35] Danna: Nice.

[00:04:36] Megan J. McCrory: if you're into nice voices, I think, Ben, you could actually be even an audio book narrator if you really, really wanted to, 'cause that's a hot thing going on right now, uh, to be a man's audiobook narrator. So we brought Ben, who is a career coach, but also, you know, health is all about also everything. Career

is

[00:04:54] Danna: Sure.

[00:04:55] Megan J. McCrory: part of your health, stress, and everything. And Ben's got a little bit of history. [00:05:00] I'll underplay him, so... I'll undersell him so he'll overperform, about his, uh, time working with women and maternity leaves and helping women to prep,

become a prepper, but in a different way, for the maternity leave. So welcome, Ben, to So Freaking Healthy.

[00:05:17] Ben Fox: Thanks for having me. Quite

[00:05:18] Megan J. McCrory: Okay. Yeah, he didn't really know what he is getting into here. So, Ben, I first heard you when I was editing, a show called Back After Burnout with Kina Schneider. She's also on our, uh, Swiss Cast network show, so if you haven't heard of her, you guys can go check her out. And you talked a lot about planning and actually how to quit your job, and that was an amazing episode. And Anybody who's in a toxic work environment, highly recommend that you go listen to that episode. I learned a lot. I, of course, should have listened to the episode in 2021 before I quit my toxic job. But I said, "Okay, what can we talk about with Ben on So [00:06:00] Freaking Healthy that's not gonna repeat the same thing?" And you came up with this wonderful topic about maternity leave and how to help prepare. So you, like, give us a understanding how you kind of got into that space from where- wherever you were?

[00:06:13] Danna: As

[00:06:14] Ben Fox: Yeah.

[00:06:14] Danna: dude.

[00:06:15] Ben Fox: Is a white dude who can't have babies, how did you find yourself working with maternity leave? Um, in 2020, I was, in a new job as a career coach working at a coding bootcamp. This was my second- Coding boot boot bootcamp that I worked at, and, they

were totally fine with me doing some contract work on the side. And it was around the time where I made that jump. It was right before COVID. It was, like,

2020 where I was outreached by this new company called Maven Clinic.

Hey, we help women and their families with all things [00:07:00] maternity leave, health, back to work. Would you like to sign up and be on our platform?" It's like, "That sounds great. check it out." and for five years I was on that platform. It's not just women.

There are, there are some, some dads on there too. But primarily, and I found a lot of joy in helping people think through this of life that, as you said earlier, is not so supported in the US, unfortunately. something I like to say to most of my clients, especially my, clients, is believe that moms make the world go round. I

[00:07:44] Danna: true.

[00:07:44] Ben Fox: who would disagree with that.

so yeah, I just-- I really love that work and being part of all these different women's stories and

helping them think through, you know, how do I talk to my employer about the fact that I'm pregnant now?

How do I

[00:07:59] Megan J. McCrory: Right.[00:08:00]

[00:08:00] Ben Fox: taking this leave and supporting my team, supporting my family, et

cetera.

[00:08:04] Danna: Yeah. I mean, and I have to, I have to say, I'm breaking your balls for being, you know, a white dude, but at the end of the day, I think it is important for women to get supported by men 'cause this whole world, unfortunately, you know, until now, is run by men. So it is important to have that kind of side of this is what you should probably be thinking about.

Like,

maybe speak a little bit more like a man or have, you know, or direct... Yeah, it's true though.

[00:08:37] Megan J. McCrory: it.

[00:08:38] Danna: Dude, it's true. It's true. You need to know what... who you're talking to and in what level to come in.

[00:08:43] Megan J. McCrory: be about the matriarchy and patriarchy of our society?

[00:08:46] Danna: It may be.

But no, but it is important.

[00:08:51] Megan J. McCrory: I

[00:08:51] Danna: that what? That, that a woman needs to have...

[00:08:54] Megan J. McCrory: over and

[00:08:55] Danna: That's not what I said.

[00:08:56] Megan J. McCrory: talk about, talk the way a man should talk in order to get maternity

[00:08:59] Danna: [00:09:00] No, that's not what I said. What I said or what I meant to say was it is important because we are from different planets. I mean, it is obvious. We know this. It's very different. And so for a woman Going into a world of maternity leave, which a man will not understand because they cannot have babies and carry babies in them, to then be able to communicate in a way that there's a lineup.

That it's not like, " You should give me whatever I want because I'm giving birth now and I'm, you know, I've created life and this is important," and da, da, da, da, da, and like bring all the emotional stuff. And with men sometimes you just have to talk a little bit more like, "Ugh," you know? Like this is what needs to happen.

It's true. I'm living with three men, so I know what I'm talking about. I'm an expert.

[00:09:48] Ben Fox: enough.

[00:09:48] Ben’s Coaching Playbook

[00:09:48] Megan J. McCrory: so let's go back to Ben, who has actually done some coaching in this area. So Ben, in this specific situation where women might have a male [00:10:00] boss, or in general a boss, let's say, how, how do you help them find their voice in this situation and speak from this more... I don't know.

Is it more important to speak from a non-emotional plan- standpoint when you're trying to plan your maternity leave? Or, I mean, it's hard to it's hard to, you know, separate the emotion of having, of, of creating a new life

how that affects your whole world, and that your job, I think, for most... a lot of people, the job which was 80% of maybe their brain space is now going to be 30% of their brain space.

how, how did you go about addressing this or help, helping people address that?

[00:10:44] Ben Fox: Yeah. of

it is,

I don't

know what you're going through, Like to really own the

fact that I'm on

the outside, I

will never have that experience of giving birth. I would like to have children someday soon, but it won't be [00:11:00] me, it the birth. So part

of why I love coaching as well, in the way that I practice

it is the way in which I'm

an expert is not in telling people how to do things,

Sometimes I'm guiding and giving advice, but

it's more

so getting

people's own intuition, and wisdom

out of them and being that shiny reflection.

when people are talking to me about maternity leave, this

person's boss is gonna be different than this person's boss.

This company is gonna have a way different

policy than this

company. And I

I have to get to

the bottom

of uh, the situation

with each person

I'm talking to and have them Well, let me

back up for a sec. Uh, A big

part of how I think I am, of value as a man helping women through maternity leave is

I

know a lot of [00:12:00] women

are... Part of

why I said earlier, like,

moms make the world go

round

is because moms are amazing at thinking about everyone else. Yeah. has thought about cared

for in the

best version

of mom.

The dark

underbelly of that is who's taking care of mom. And that's where I feel, uh, a great responsibility.

as

the youngest

of three brothers to a wonderful mom, I

feel

I've been, given this beautiful life and, and outlook about

how to be a man that really cares. So a lot of the work is

being like, Hey, well what about you, mom? What about your needs because when you're not

at

a

hundred percent, you're not gonna take care of people as well as you could. and really having that be the front and center

focus, whether it's maternity leave, care of their team, taking care of their family,

Like [00:13:00] you're not front

and center

focus,

especially

if you're giving birth for the first time I think everyone's kind of screwed.

[00:13:09] Megan J. McCrory: And how should

women approach then that conversation? we, we

touched just briefly on it. Like, for example, let's just start from the beginning. Somebody finds

out that they're pregnant you know, a lot of women

might hold back that

information for a long time, especially if

they physically can not

present that they're pregnant. which

is a, I think a mental burden that they have to hold onto. So when they're ready to tell the boss that they're pregnant, what's the best approach to do that? Or, or how how, how do they start that conversation?

[00:13:43] Ben Fox: Yeah, I,

I feel like so much of this depends on particular situation, whether it's like

your

tenure year at the organization, maybe you've only

been there a few months and you're like, oh, I,

[00:13:58] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:13:58] Ben Fox: don't have a lot of [00:14:00] seniority here."

Unfortunately, in the States,

a lot

of women get

laid off

returning from maternity leave or don't get the chance to come back. I think part of it is your seniority at the company. So unfortunately if that were the situation,

I would work with that person to understand,

"Hey,

is this--

Is

there precedence for something like this happening?

Is it actually wiser to withhold until it makes sense

to tell? And that being said, who can you tell

that you just a hundred percent trust, like there's no doubt?

it doesn't necessarily

[00:14:37] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:14:37] Ben Fox: at work,

[00:14:38] Danna: Yeah.

[00:14:38] Ben Fox: like having it be this thing that you have to hold so tight in every area of your life

is gonna be really burdensome.

[00:14:46] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:14:46] Ben Fox: Yeah,

[00:14:47] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:14:47] Ben Fox: a tough one. I think in the States especially,

[00:14:50] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah

[00:14:51] Ben Fox: so precarious

because

[00:14:53] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:14:53] Ben Fox: let

go for less than that.

 

[00:14:55] AD

[00:14:55] Danna: Yeah.

[00:14:56] Megan J. McCrory: it happens also here in Switzerland at the company I used to work for, and [00:15:00] I didn't notice it, right? Because I'd never been pregnant. But I was talking to a lady who'd been pregnant, and I'd been with the company for quite

some time, and I never even noticed it. She's like, yeah, I am scared because I know when I come back I'm gonna get laid off." and, and I mean, there's some tight laws in Switzerland. They can't lay you off while you're on maternity leave, and they can't lay you off while you're sick. so there is some, bandwidth there. But she's like, "No, haven't you noticed this person, this person, this person, this person? They all left the company after they had their kid."

And I'm like, "Well, is that because their values changed, their outlook changed, their... what was important to them changed? Or was it really the company not being conducive to new mothers in the workplace?" I don't know. It was just the theory she had and... But I feel like you know, I don't think you're safe anywhere is what I'm saying Terms of, taking time away from your career to have a child.

[00:15:56] Ben Fox: I will, share a quick story on the more positive [00:16:00] side of things.

a former client when I was working at Maven, let's call her Naomi. She had been at the same financial company for about 10 years. was like, this is what she knew about being a working professional. also helped her get to New York.

She had moved a couple times, and these were pretty big moves and big salary increases because of that.

[00:16:28] Pregnancy Changes Plans

[00:16:28] Ben Fox: and although she was treated

well, her team, her boss was great. She was starting. Part of why we were working together is 'cause she was like, I don't know, that I want to be here anymore. I'm, I'm Getting kind of bored. I'm really great at this work, but I feel like there's more."

And I was helping her think through, how can you make this transition into a different company or a whole different type of role? And then she got pregnant. And the whole calculus changed for [00:17:00] her,

where instead of, get out of this because it's really not working," it was, "This is actually a really good place to have...

to

be pregnant.

[00:17:10] Danna: Yeah. With the 10 years behind her, with... Yeah. I mean, makes sense to start a new job with a young baby. Like, to even get that job is probably difficult, right?

[00:17:21] Ben Fox: Exactly.

[00:17:22] Danna: Yeah. Interesting.

[00:17:23] Ben Fox: really good benefits compared to most other companies. I think it was something... I think it might've been like six months

[00:17:29] Danna: Wow.

[00:17:30] Ben Fox: leave, which is awesome. And not to be taken for granted

[00:17:34] Danna: Sure.

[00:17:34] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:17:35] Ben Fox: as an employee.

so that was huge for her to stay and feel like she had this support of

this company, which a lot of people don't feel.

[00:17:42] Danna: Yeah,

[00:17:43] Leave Laws And Timing

[00:17:43] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah, I've had a few friends, obviously each

country in Europe has slightly

different laws about,

maternity leave. but I know in Germany I had a friend who, had a

baby and then within the two years had

another baby. Because in [00:18:00] Germany you get two, you get two years of maternity leave. And I to caveat that, it doesn't mean you're getting paid full time the whole time And it doesn't mean you get

exact job back when you go back, But

you're guaranteed a job at the same level when

you go back somewhere in the company.

[00:18:14] Danna: It's not bad.

[00:18:15] Megan J. McCrory: and you don't necessarily get

paid a full salary that whole time, but like a full salary for the first couple months and then some percentage after that. don't know all the details, But, you

know, part of her planning and we're

talking about, how to prepare is, she's like, okay, well, if I have two children

[00:18:33] Danna: Within. yeah.

[00:18:34] Megan J. McCrory: I basically get four years of maternity leave, and I've got the kids all taken care of, and then I get to go back to a company."

It's gonna be a probably completely different work environment

[00:18:46] Danna: Yeah.

[00:18:47] Megan J. McCrory: because it's been four years. But still, there was a job when she went back, which is, I

think, incredible,

[00:18:52] Danna: Yeah.

[00:18:53] Megan J. McCrory: that there's that amount of flexibility. So I think that's kind of on the extreme, and I think some of the Scandinavian countries [00:19:00] have very similar,

[00:19:01] Danna: Yeah.

[00:19:02] Megan J. McCrory: of environment.

And then you get the families that have all the kids very close so that they can manage this, and then once the, then the kids all kind of grow up at the same time rather than, you know, having kids that maybe are, like, five years apart and now you've got to go through that twice. so I think that's kind of the

planning part that I thought was interesting that I obviously never considered.

but knowing the laws and knowing what you can and can't do, um, I think is paramount to helping you understand and feeling relaxed about the decisions that you make. Of course, laws can change while you're not looking. But, uh,

[00:19:38] Danna: Good point. Good point.

[00:19:40] Megan J. McCrory: yeah.

 

[00:19:41] Ben Fox: my partner works for the Department of Education here in

New York. And one of my clients, we worked together very briefly, she's a friend, wanted to have her first child, a teacher. in the education department [00:20:00] here, a lot of people-- a lot of women will time up when they get pregnant so that they can have their baby, like go on leave

[00:20:09] Megan J. McCrory: Uh,

[00:20:09] Ben Fox: a certain amount of time, and then have summer break

[00:20:12] Megan J. McCrory: yeah.

[00:20:12] Ben Fox: so they can extend it.

And I'm

[00:20:14] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:20:15] Ben Fox: as a man who doesn't have to think about those things, that was mind blowing for me. I was like, "Oh, you're planning your life based on a summer break from your job."

[00:20:25] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:20:26] Ben Fox: to you?

[00:20:26] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:20:27] Ben Fox: Whoa.

[00:20:27] Megan J. McCrory: it's true. That's true. yeah, my mom's also a teacher, but I don't think she planned anything like that. She just had 'em whenever.

Whenever

[00:20:39] Danna: they popped.

[00:20:40] Megan J. McCrory: Whenever they came out, they came out. Uh, no, because she had us before she was a teacher. She had all

three kids and then she went back to school to become a teacher.

So, uh, yeah.

[00:20:49] Danna: Yeah, but it is crazy how much we have to think about all these things and, like... I mean, I, I've been through a lot of it. I mean, yeah, not the, maybe the job part and stuff, but just [00:21:00] having kids and, you know, all the things that are involved in that. And just having this conversation, I'm like, "Oh yeah, we are super heroes. Fucking A. Like, it, it's crazy because you really do have to think about so many other levels and layers that no one else has to go through, uh, thinking about. So it's quite, quite interesting. What is-- just outta curiosity, what is the legal... Like, in the US, when do you have to say that you're pregnant?

Like, what month or what, what's the deal? When you're showing belly?

[00:21:32] Megan J. McCrory: I think you can just go into labor.

[00:21:34] Danna: You don't have to say anything? And if someone goes like, "Are you pregnant?" You're like, "That's super rude. You're, you're not allowed to ask me that"?

[00:21:40] Ben Fox: ask that.

[00:21:41] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:21:42] Danna: Really?

[00:21:42] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah,

[00:21:43] Danna: interesting.

[00:21:44] Megan J. McCrory: you.

[00:21:45] Danna: So why would you tell?

[00:21:46] Megan J. McCrory: To... For planning purposes, I guess.

[00:21:49] Danna: Planning

what?

[00:21:51] Megan J. McCrory: the maternity leave, like how much time they get, I guess. I don't know, Ben. Do you... I'm, I'm guessing.

[00:21:57] Ben Fox: Well, I think what I've [00:22:00] seen with some of the clients I worked with, when they had a great boss who they felt comfortable talking to about this, part of the reason to tell is, like you're saying, to plan for your exit, to support your team, the

transition. This is when, like, a company's working well.

Like,

yes, you, you should leave and take care of yourself and have this baby, and we need to take care of the team in your absence.

Let's plan on that." Um, and that can work. and I have those clients like, "Hey, what is your relationship to your manager? Do they have children?

What's the precedence at this company or on your team for maternity and paternity leave?

What does it look like?"

but yeah, it, it's so wild that there's even an idea of you should hide this

That

Yeah.

all got here. We're all--

[00:22:53] Danna: Yeah.

[00:22:54] Ben Fox: all had to be in someone's body and be given birth to,

but hide that from your [00:23:00] team and your

[00:23:00] Danna: Yeah. And be scared, and be scared for your future. I mean, it's kind of--

[00:23:05] Megan J. McCrory: Uh,

[00:23:06] Danna: being women.

[00:23:07] Megan J. McCrory: fuck, I

[00:23:08] Danna: It really is.

[00:23:09] Returning To Work Wisdom

[00:23:09] Megan J. McCrory: so Ben, To give maybe some tangible advice to who are considering, starting to build a family and have a career, Are there, like, a couple things that you could give advice on, on terms of how to set them selves up before they leave, and how to return to work? do you have advice or a few words of wisdom that we can give to our listeners?

[00:23:34] Ben Fox: Definitely. thing I tell everyone, but especially the about to be moms, is there's this you right now, and then there's this you after you have your first child,

there are two completely different

people, your priorities shift. mind and your body shift, like everything about your life will be different. It's really [00:24:00] hard to plan for the new person that you're gonna become while you're this person who's been driven, and ambitious, and

[00:24:07] Danna: Energetic.

[00:24:08] Ben Fox: work. Yeah,

[00:24:09] Danna: Yeah.

[00:24:11] Ben Fox: to me, just the, the sleep deprivation

possibility is, is a mind fuck too. Like, you're not

gonna be

[00:24:20] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:24:20] Ben Fox: as much. You're not gonna be as energized,

[00:24:22] Danna: right.

[00:24:23] Ben Fox: and now you've got this little thing, this baby that you have to make sure is okay at all times of

[00:24:30] Danna: Yeah.

And

[00:24:31] Megan J. McCrory: And you're

[00:24:31] Danna: you're,

[00:24:32] Megan J. McCrory: obsessed with,

[00:24:33] Danna: Oh, yeah.

[00:24:33] Megan J. McCrory: don't wanna put them

[00:24:34] Danna: Yeah.

[00:24:34] Megan J. McCrory: And when they're sleeping, you wanna watch them sleeping. You don't

[00:24:37] Danna: Yeah.

[00:24:37] Megan J. McCrory: sleep. You wanna watch them and

[00:24:39] Danna: Yeah.

[00:24:39] Megan J. McCrory: them,

[00:24:40] Danna: And when they go to sleep at night, you just look at pictures that you took all day of them.

[00:24:45] Ben Fox: Biology's weird but wonderful.

[00:24:48] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:24:48] Ben Fox: have, um, one client that I was working with who is at one of the really big tech companies here in the States, and this was our second time working [00:25:00] together. She was on maternity leave when we re-engaged in our work together, so I just had her child, was like, "I'm going back to this job in a couple months, it's not it's not right with me."

the things you both just mentioned of, like, the obsession with her new daughter, it's her first child, we're all true.

but she was the main breadwinner she felt this huge responsibility to go back. Also, being in New York, it costs a lot to be here. So to me, it was really clear for her that wanted something else.

She had these entrepreneurial stirrings in her that were so clear from the outside looking in. But she didn't feel like she could just right away.

So she did go back to work, and as she kind of predicted,

miserable, like the [00:26:00] amount of work that

they have you do at this company, especially with AI changing everything, and she's in tech, and she's a software engineer, just really intense, and also with a new boss that wasn't a great fit. So for her, we got crystal clear that she needed to have a quit date. Like, she actually couldn't maintain in this environment. That's something else I have people think about. Like, if this really hasn't been working out for you and you want to have a kid, that it might be worth your time to think through leaving might make sense, especially if you're a two income households

[00:26:39] Danna: Yeah.

[00:26:40] Ben Fox: have that type of support, need to do some planning. Like, it's gonna continue to wear on you,

and being there for your child's first year or two years, you'll never get that back. Um, and that's what this client had as her top priority. "I want to be there for my, my [00:27:00] daughter."

So, she had a, a quit date in August. I was like, "That's pretty far out, but okay." She's like, "Yeah, you're right." Moved it back to April. She just left recently. it was great. And she had a, a role that... a contract role that got lined up. unfortunately, wasn't a great fit, but she was building her business on the side, and now she's a full-time entrepreneur,

has all this time for her baby and to build, work around her life and not the other way around.

[00:27:30] Danna: Right. Amazing.

[00:27:32] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah. That's really, really cool 'Cause like I mentioned, with your episode with Karina, you talk more about, how to help people plan for their quit date. And I think that that is definitely a topic that the two people who are having the child need to talk about, before, because, you know, the pain and the planning and everything of coming back afterwards, and the stress of, of, your maternity is ending soon, and, then you have the stress of, "I [00:28:00] have to go back to work." how is it, how am I gonna balance everything? And if you- plan and you say, "I don't need to come back after that," or, "I can take a longer break because we have this runway financially that's more secure," God, what a weight lifted off your shoulders if you can just be like, "Okay, I'm peace out. I'm done for, like, the next two years.

I'm just gonna worry about this in two years or three years, when I feel like maybe I'm back, maybe 80% back to my pre- pre parent self. And I mean, if you can plan, I feel like that is a huge advantage. And also probably one of the reason why a lot of people don't have is

because they plan and they go, "I can't financially do this,

[00:28:45] Ben Fox: Yeah.

[00:28:46] Megan J. McCrory: right now," which is unfortunate.

that's an- that's another topic, you know, unplanned pregnancy versus planned pregnancy. And obviously, if you can plan it, financially this is one of those things I think that [00:29:00] would... is a big weight lifted off your shoulder when you can not have to worry about the money side of things,

[00:29:05] Ben Fox: Yeah. word of wisdom that came to me as you were just talking was there's a ton of fear that if I come back from maternity leave and I'm not as good as I was before, they're not

gonna want me. Or, um, even just taking this time off, I might get fired. There's a ton of precedent for all this. and to me, when those types of thoughts come up,

part of the work is helping people with their mindset.

[00:29:39] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:29:39] Ben Fox: this really the place you wanna raise a family within? This will be a big part of the income and benefits that you're using to grow a family.

Does this place respect you as, uh, a human, as a new mother? no, [00:30:00] to remember, especially... A lot of the people I work with are super high achievers, ambitious, have these really beautiful careers that they've built, and I help them think about, well, there's other people who need what you have to offer,

[00:30:15] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:30:16] Ben Fox: you way better.

[00:30:17] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:30:17] Ben Fox: It's not like a huge slice of the pie, but they're out there.

[00:30:22] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:30:22] Ben Fox: I work with, that's the goal if you want to be an employee, is let's find the companies that actually treat people

[00:30:30] Megan J. McCrory: Right.

[00:30:30] Danna: It, just makes me think of how many clients I had who came to me for health coaching thinking they will talk we'll talk about what they eat and stuff like that, and we ended up spending six months just talking about their job, helping them figure it out because, as you say, things come out of their mouth.

They are unhappy at their job. They are... They want to be more with their kids, or they want to completely shift, or they want to take a break or, you know, whatever it may be, or they're just really [00:31:00] burned out and they need to take a break. But they are saying it, and then they're like, "Well, but I'm kind of stuck in this job, so it is what it is."

And, and to be a coach and to kind of help a person realize that, aid their potential is so much bigger than just that one job,

Which I think is very difficult, especially with women who, you know... Anyways, I'm not gonna enter into that. But, um, it's, it's so important for a, for that person to have... It's not a mirror, but like an echo, I guess.

An echo of like, "This is what I heard you just say," and then it clicks of like, "Oh, wow, I'm super unhappy at work," or, "I'm burnt out," or, "I need..." You know? And it's, it's quite fascinating to me how just that that little support, I think we do a lot more than people think. But that little support as a coach, goes such a long way.

It goes such a long way. So thank you for doing the hard work, Ben.

[00:31:56] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:31:56] Danna: I'm serious.

[00:31:58] Ben Fox: I love it.

[00:31:59] Megan J. McCrory: I think we've [00:32:00] all said what I think is the most important things, is that you just need to think and think about yourself first, as Ben said, as a woman, as the person who's doing this. And do what you need to do, and if you need a coach to help you with doing that, then find someone who you connect with. and plan. Plan, plan, plan. And breathe. Make sure you're breathing through all of this. Don't hold your breath because that's not healthy.

[00:32:27] Danna: Not for you and not for the baby.

[00:32:28] Megan J. McCrory: exactly. So, Ben, any last words of wisdom before we close it out?

[00:32:36] Ben Fox: the women that I've worked with, part of where I find coaching to be so useful is, having them listen to themselves

In that you're able to see things that the men around you cannot see. We do-- Like, we all have blind spots based on our identities, and one of the things I love with the women I [00:33:00] work with is they're so astute the things around them that they're seeing.

like, "Let's figure out a way to say this that feels like you, that can be

well

received.

[00:33:12] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:33:13] Ben Fox: not only will you feel better because you're being yourself,

[00:33:16] Megan J. McCrory: Yeah.

[00:33:17] Ben Fox: else is gonna grow in the way that, would be beneficial for all.

[00:33:22] Danna: Yeah.

[00:33:23] Megan J. McCrory: Very good.

[00:33:24] Danna: Cool.

[00:33:25] Megan J. McCrory: so much, for talking with us today about a topic we have never talked about on the show. So thank you for being open to talking about that with us and, uh, pleasure to have you.

[00:33:38] Ben Fox: Thanks for having me.