Dire Wolf Brought Back? The Wild Science and Ethics of De-Extinction

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Did a company bring back the direwolf?

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Is it de-extincted, I

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guess is the question.

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That's the big

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question around everything.

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And I know you're thinking, Andrew,

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this is an ocean podcast.

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Like why are we

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talking about wolves in this?

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Well, one, wolves are cool.

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We always love to talk about that.

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I'm a Game of Thrones fan.

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So dire wolves, obviously a great topic

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to discuss on an ocean podcast.

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But what we're gonna

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be talking about today

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on this episode is we're gonna be looking

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at the questions surrounding like

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bringing back species.

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Is it a good idea to do it?

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First of all, de-extinct, is

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it an actual direwolf species?

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And what are the

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implications for the ocean?

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That's what we're gonna be

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talking about on today's episode

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of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Let's start the show.

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Hey everybody, welcome

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back to this exciting episode

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of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.

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And this is the

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podcast where you find out

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what's happening with the ocean,

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how you could speak up for the ocean

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and what you can do to

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live for a better ocean

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by taking action.

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On today's episode, we

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have a great one for you.

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We have Dr. Gabby Monstrum-Monaco

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who is here today from the Toronto Zoo.

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She is the chief scientist at the zoo

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and she's also in charge of

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the cryogenic bank at the zoo

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where they actually

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have sperm and embryos

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from over 400

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different species of animals

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that are at the zoo

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and outside of the zoo

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to help preserve genetic diversity.

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Now I asked her on the

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podcast not only to talk about that

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because it works well

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with the direwolf thing

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because we're talking about genetics,

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but I wanted to get her opinions,

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her scientific opinions

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about what has happened

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with this news about bringing back

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and de-extincting the direwolf.

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Is it a direwolf?

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Is it considered a direwolf?

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And why are scientists

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so obsessed about saying,

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"Hey, you know what? It's not a direwolf.

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Why are we so worried about that?"

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And also it doesn't matter

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when the whole context of things.

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Then we're gonna ask the question,

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"Hey, what are the

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implications for conservation?

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Are they actually gonna

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release these species?

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What if they get out from

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their enclosure right now?"

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We're talking about

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wooly mammoths coming back.

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There's a lot of

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questions that we have to answer

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and I wanted to get Gabby on

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because she has the

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expertise to talk about.

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She has the knowledge of this.

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She's done read the papers.

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She's written papers.

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And I think it's really

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important that we get somebody

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with the expertise on the

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podcast to talk about it.

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So that's what we're

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gonna be talking about today.

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I can't wait for you to

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listen to this interview

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with Dr. Gabby Mastrovodico

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from the Toronto Zoo.

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Enjoy and I will talk to you after.

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Hey Gabby, welcome to the How

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to Protect the Ocean podcast.

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Are you ready to talk about

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genetics and de-extinction?

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Hi Andrew. Yes, I am.

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Thank you for having me here today.

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You bet. Now this is a lot of fun.

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This is the first time I've had, Gabby.

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This is the first time

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I've had you on this podcast,

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but we have a bit of a history.

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I interviewed you for

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the Wild4Life podcast,

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the Toronto Zoo podcast

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a couple of years ago.

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That was a lot of fun.

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We talked about what a little bit

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of what we're gonna

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be talking about today,

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talking about the Toronto

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Zoo's work with the cryogenics lab

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and the work with

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preserving genetic diversity

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and in some cases producing animals

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from in vitro fertilization.

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We're gonna talk about your work on that

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because it's groundbreaking.

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It's a lot of fun to talk about,

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but I asked you on the podcast today

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because obviously the

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news has been flooded

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with this idea of de-extinction

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and with these dire wolves or gray wolves

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that have been genetically altered,

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however you wanna see it,

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however it's been presented,

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has just dominated

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the news in a news cycle

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that's been pretty bleak

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lately with the economy

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and everything like that.

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So it really brought attention.

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It's a topic of a lot of conversation

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among scientists and among the public.

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So what I wanted to do is have you once

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is you have such a great

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experience in this research area

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and I want to get your thoughts on the

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idea of de-extinction

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and of course,

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repopulation of these animals

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that have been coming into play.

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So we're gonna talk all about that,

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which I can't wait to get into.

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But before we do, Gabby,

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can you just let us know

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who you are and what you do?

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Absolutely.

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So I'm Gabby Master Monaco.

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I'm the chief science

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officer at Toronto Zoo

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and also the

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reproductive biologist for the zoo.

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So I'm in this really unique

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and lucky privileged position

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where I not only get to focus on the

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reproductive science

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that had been done at the zoo,

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but my position has grown a little bit

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to look over all the sciences.

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So animal wellbeing,

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health, welfare, nutrition,

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and of course

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reproduction and the field teams,

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the species recovery teams.

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So because it's working

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together that we can do good things.

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And this is what I love about the zoo.

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When I started podcasting for you guys,

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I really learned about that

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the zoo is not just a place

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where you go in and look at animals.

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That's just one aspect of it.

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What I like to call it is it's a

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conservation organization.

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It's a facility that

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facilitates the conservation

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of the animals, not only that you house,

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but other animals locally and so forth

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and have programs with the community,

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have programs really

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all around the world.

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And that's what I love about the zoo.

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And so I really

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appreciate the work that you do

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and congratulations on the

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expansion of that position

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that you were in, much is well deserved.

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And I know that they are going to be,

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the people there are going to be,

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not only the members of the zoo,

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but also the people who

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are there for the zoo,

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the staff and stuff that are

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going to enjoy what you do.

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And so I really appreciate

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you coming on the podcast.

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And I know I asked you

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last minute to come on

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because we're going to talk about this

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idea for de-extinction.

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But what I want to first get into is just

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kind of give an idea

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of what you do, like the cryogenics lab

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and the purpose of the

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cryogenics lab at the zoo.

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Can you tell us a

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little bit about sort of

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like a brief history

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of like how it started,

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why it started and then what you do

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with all the things

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at the cryogenics lab?

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So you've hit on one of my favourite

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topics and I'll try to

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be succinct about it.

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But so obviously Toronto Zoo has the only

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reproductive science

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program in a zoo in Canada.

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And so I mean, preserving genetic

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diversity can be done in a

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number of different ways.

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We can naturally breed animals and

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release them into the wild.

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But at Toronto Zoo, we also use

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alternative strategies, which is assisted

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reproduction as well.

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And because we work with artificial

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insemination, in vitro

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fertilization, producing embryos.

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But the most important thing of all of

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that is that we can freeze them as well.

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So storing in liquid nitrogen means that

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that genetic material that is present

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today can be captured forever.

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As long as we monitor those tanks and

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look after them, we can take the

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snapshots in time of the

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species that are around.

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So our biobank is 40 years old. I'm

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trying to do the math in my head.

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40 years old.

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Yeah, pushing.

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Yeah, 40 years old, 1980, right?

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Just yeah, just over 40 years old.

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And we've been diligently not only

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cryopreserving samples from our own

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animals, we support zoos across Canada.

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And of course, samples from the wild that

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that's the new area that we need to get

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into and have started working on.

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Now, when we talk about this genetic

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material, like this DNA that's preserved,

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we're talking about intact DNA.

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Like this is not just DNA that's taken

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from a fossil or taken from something

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that's been that was, you know, died

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10,000 years ago or plus this is we're

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talking about things that have that like

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DNA material that's intact that have been

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taking over the last 40 years because

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that's how long like, you know, within

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that that time span.

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So like if you were to unfreeze it and I

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know obviously I'm simplifying that the

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process here, but if you were unfreeze

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some of that genetic material, that

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genetic material would be intact if you

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want to use it, correct?

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So that is the important distinction.

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There's a lot of wildlife

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biobanks around the world.

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Our amazing Canadian Museum of Nature has

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00:07:59,416 --> 00:08:01,625
Canada's biodiversity biobank.

284
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But when you're thinking of that DNA,

285
00:08:04,541 --> 00:08:07,500
whether it's ancestral or modern DNA,

286
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it's just frozen dead material.

287
00:08:11,875 --> 00:08:13,291
So you can get DNA out of it.

288
00:08:13,500 --> 00:08:15,958
But the cryobank or biobank at the

289
00:08:15,958 --> 00:08:18,833
Toronto Zoo has living cells, living

290
00:08:18,833 --> 00:08:22,291
sperm, living embryos, living skin cells

291
00:08:22,291 --> 00:08:26,333
from which we can just take DNA to

292
00:08:26,333 --> 00:08:27,458
sequence it or whatever

293
00:08:27,458 --> 00:08:29,000
we want to do with it.

294
00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:31,125
But we can also create offspring.

295
00:08:31,958 --> 00:08:35,916
So with with that, that nice clean modern

296
00:08:35,916 --> 00:08:40,166
living cells that are frozen away, we can

297
00:08:40,166 --> 00:08:42,333
apply the reproductive technologies that

298
00:08:42,333 --> 00:08:43,833
are available to us.

299
00:08:44,125 --> 00:08:45,833
That's amazing. If we just talk about the

300
00:08:45,833 --> 00:08:47,625
bison program, because this is something

301
00:08:47,625 --> 00:08:49,625
that I brag to people about because I'm

302
00:08:49,625 --> 00:08:51,916
so proud, not only to be from Toronto,

303
00:08:51,916 --> 00:08:54,083
but to be Canadian to be just say like,

304
00:08:54,083 --> 00:08:55,583
hey, this has happened locally.

305
00:08:55,958 --> 00:08:58,750
And it's not an easy thing to do.

306
00:08:58,750 --> 00:08:59,750
This is something that takes

307
00:08:59,750 --> 00:09:01,000
years and years of research.

308
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:02,458
But can you talk about the program and

309
00:09:02,458 --> 00:09:04,000
what it's been able to accomplish?

310
00:09:05,458 --> 00:09:06,541
You know, it's been a

311
00:09:06,541 --> 00:09:07,625
it's been a long ago.

312
00:09:07,625 --> 00:09:10,500
We started 2007, 2008.

313
00:09:10,500 --> 00:09:13,458
So we're looking at over 15 years of

314
00:09:13,458 --> 00:09:17,208
really methodical and diligent trials,

315
00:09:17,750 --> 00:09:20,333
not only at Toronto Zoo, but this is a

316
00:09:20,333 --> 00:09:21,916
really important partnership with

317
00:09:21,916 --> 00:09:22,541
University of

318
00:09:22,541 --> 00:09:24,125
Saskatchewan and Parks Canada.

319
00:09:25,083 --> 00:09:26,625
And of course, partnerships and

320
00:09:26,625 --> 00:09:29,666
collaboration are the foundation of good

321
00:09:29,666 --> 00:09:31,208
research and good conservation.

322
00:09:31,750 --> 00:09:34,833
So, you know, we were interested in the

323
00:09:34,833 --> 00:09:36,416
challenges that were happening in the

324
00:09:36,416 --> 00:09:38,125
wild with the disease issue.

325
00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:40,000
Of course, there's some really

326
00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:41,791
genetically valuable animals that have

327
00:09:41,791 --> 00:09:43,416
tuberculosis, brucellosis.

328
00:09:44,500 --> 00:09:46,750
And we knew that we could take sperm,

329
00:09:47,541 --> 00:09:50,166
embryos, we can hopefully disinfect them

330
00:09:50,166 --> 00:09:52,041
of those diseases and

331
00:09:52,041 --> 00:09:53,666
bank clean genetics.

332
00:09:53,750 --> 00:09:56,625
So clean living sperm and embryos that

333
00:09:56,625 --> 00:09:58,833
can be used in the future to repopulate

334
00:09:58,833 --> 00:10:01,291
these disease free herds.

335
00:10:02,375 --> 00:10:04,166
And and there's been a couple of really

336
00:10:04,166 --> 00:10:05,500
important firsts that

337
00:10:05,500 --> 00:10:06,583
come out of this project.

338
00:10:06,958 --> 00:10:08,666
But of course, at Toronto Zoo, a few

339
00:10:08,666 --> 00:10:11,125
years ago, you might remember we had a

340
00:10:11,125 --> 00:10:14,416
calf born a bison calf born from sperm

341
00:10:14,416 --> 00:10:17,125
that had been frozen for 35 years.

342
00:10:17,166 --> 00:10:20,541
And that is the oldest, like living sperm

343
00:10:20,541 --> 00:10:23,750
frozen that resulted in a live calf from

344
00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:25,208
artificial insemination.

345
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:27,791
So and that would mean again, just to

346
00:10:27,791 --> 00:10:29,208
simplify, that would mean so you took

347
00:10:29,208 --> 00:10:31,958
that that sperm from 35 years ago, you

348
00:10:31,958 --> 00:10:34,666
inseminate into an embryo and then a

349
00:10:34,666 --> 00:10:37,250
bison like a female bison carried that

350
00:10:37,250 --> 00:10:39,791
that fetus and then gave birth.

351
00:10:39,791 --> 00:10:40,291
Is that correct?

352
00:10:41,166 --> 00:10:44,250
Yes. So in this case, we didn't make the

353
00:10:44,250 --> 00:10:46,416
embryo in the lab, but so we thought this

354
00:10:46,416 --> 00:10:49,791
35 year frozen sperm, we put it into the

355
00:10:49,791 --> 00:10:51,875
female who was synchronized to the right

356
00:10:51,875 --> 00:10:54,666
time of the cycle. And she carried the

357
00:10:54,666 --> 00:10:56,250
embryo in the fetus to term.

358
00:10:57,375 --> 00:10:59,291
It's it's so funny when you say it

359
00:10:59,291 --> 00:11:00,750
because every time you say is like the

360
00:11:00,750 --> 00:11:02,750
timing had to be perfect. You know,

361
00:11:02,750 --> 00:11:04,166
you're looking at this, you know, you

362
00:11:04,166 --> 00:11:06,000
don't want to waste the sperm. Obviously,

363
00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,416
it's it's very valuable from a genetic

364
00:11:08,416 --> 00:11:09,541
diversity standpoint.

365
00:11:10,083 --> 00:11:11,875
Plus, like the age of it and and just

366
00:11:11,875 --> 00:11:13,875
sort of the sensitivity of the process

367
00:11:13,875 --> 00:11:16,375
itself. And it's just amazing how this is

368
00:11:16,375 --> 00:11:18,916
what happened. We got we got a bison now

369
00:11:18,916 --> 00:11:20,666
in the purpose of this program and many

370
00:11:20,666 --> 00:11:23,291
other programs at the zoo is to preserve

371
00:11:23,291 --> 00:11:24,666
genetic diversity to

372
00:11:24,666 --> 00:11:25,583
preserve the species.

373
00:11:25,833 --> 00:11:27,708
So one of the things that the zoo does

374
00:11:27,708 --> 00:11:30,541
and many other zoos in North America is

375
00:11:30,541 --> 00:11:34,041
they they team up and and try to mate

376
00:11:34,041 --> 00:11:36,958
animals of the same species that have a

377
00:11:36,958 --> 00:11:38,625
optimal genetic diversity.

378
00:11:38,875 --> 00:11:40,375
So if they made it, they would like that

379
00:11:40,375 --> 00:11:41,916
offspring would have that optimal

380
00:11:41,916 --> 00:11:44,833
diversity so that you can preserve the

381
00:11:44,833 --> 00:11:45,916
different genetic diversity.

382
00:11:45,916 --> 00:11:48,708
Can you talk about the importance of

383
00:11:48,708 --> 00:11:50,541
preserving that genetic

384
00:11:50,541 --> 00:11:52,125
diversity within a species?

385
00:11:53,333 --> 00:11:56,083
Yeah, so I really like how you describe

386
00:11:56,083 --> 00:12:00,208
that we we take a lot of care in how we

387
00:12:00,208 --> 00:12:02,208
pair the animals so that we make sure

388
00:12:02,208 --> 00:12:04,375
there's no inbreeding and they're they're

389
00:12:04,375 --> 00:12:05,375
genetically diverse.

390
00:12:05,750 --> 00:12:08,250
But the importance of genetic diversity

391
00:12:08,250 --> 00:12:11,708
is the long term health of the

392
00:12:11,708 --> 00:12:15,166
population. So you need genetic diversity

393
00:12:15,166 --> 00:12:17,250
to be able to adapt to

394
00:12:17,250 --> 00:12:18,041
changing environments.

395
00:12:18,875 --> 00:12:20,958
You need genetic diversity to stay

396
00:12:20,958 --> 00:12:23,708
healthy, to have good immune systems, to

397
00:12:23,708 --> 00:12:27,416
combat disease and natural changes or

398
00:12:27,416 --> 00:12:30,083
anthropogenic. So human induced changes

399
00:12:30,083 --> 00:12:33,625
as well. So yeah, genetic diversity is is

400
00:12:33,625 --> 00:12:36,458
the foundation of long term success.

401
00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,916
Yeah, it's a it's a conservation staple

402
00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:40,041
to you, right? When you talk about

403
00:12:40,041 --> 00:12:42,208
species diversity, we talk about

404
00:12:42,208 --> 00:12:44,708
community diversity, ecosystem diversity,

405
00:12:44,708 --> 00:12:46,666
but really down when you get down to it,

406
00:12:46,666 --> 00:12:48,291
it's that genetic diversity to make sure

407
00:12:48,291 --> 00:12:50,458
that population could be stable.

408
00:12:50,666 --> 00:12:52,208
And I really appreciate the amount of

409
00:12:52,208 --> 00:12:54,208
work that your team, you and your team

410
00:12:54,208 --> 00:12:56,583
have done, as well as your partners with

411
00:12:56,583 --> 00:12:58,625
the universities and Parks Canada have

412
00:12:58,625 --> 00:13:01,958
done to help preserve and help, you know,

413
00:13:02,791 --> 00:13:03,458
I guess, conserve

414
00:13:03,458 --> 00:13:04,666
this population of bison.

415
00:13:04,708 --> 00:13:06,458
And hopefully one day when that disease

416
00:13:06,458 --> 00:13:09,375
is eradicated in in the wild, or it's

417
00:13:09,375 --> 00:13:11,375
it's gotten to a manageable point. The

418
00:13:11,375 --> 00:13:14,458
goal is to take the bison of that have

419
00:13:14,458 --> 00:13:16,333
that do not have the disease in the zoo

420
00:13:16,333 --> 00:13:18,500
that you've been able to successfully

421
00:13:18,500 --> 00:13:20,333
breed and put them into

422
00:13:20,333 --> 00:13:22,000
into the wild. Is that correct?

423
00:13:23,416 --> 00:13:27,041
Yes, so ultimately, I mean, the whether

424
00:13:27,041 --> 00:13:29,333
it's in the biobank or whether they're in

425
00:13:29,333 --> 00:13:32,250
managed settings like zoos, these animals

426
00:13:32,250 --> 00:13:35,458
are the insurance for those future

427
00:13:35,458 --> 00:13:37,833
reintroductions. Now, sometimes

428
00:13:37,833 --> 00:13:40,250
reintroducing a species does not happen

429
00:13:40,250 --> 00:13:42,291
right away, because we've got to look

430
00:13:42,291 --> 00:13:44,333
after the habitat, we've got to make sure

431
00:13:44,333 --> 00:13:47,250
they're somewhere proper to put them back

432
00:13:47,250 --> 00:13:48,208
so that they survive.

433
00:13:48,708 --> 00:13:51,000
And with that, too, is another thing I

434
00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:52,666
learned at the zoo. It's the nutrition

435
00:13:52,666 --> 00:13:54,750
aspect, right? Is can that population

436
00:13:54,750 --> 00:13:57,500
hold enough enough animals that will

437
00:13:57,500 --> 00:13:59,375
maintain that population? You don't want

438
00:13:59,375 --> 00:14:02,500
to repopulate if there's not enough food

439
00:14:02,500 --> 00:14:04,291
or not enough resources available for

440
00:14:04,291 --> 00:14:06,583
that species to to survive.

441
00:14:06,708 --> 00:14:08,208
And there's a lot that goes in a lot of

442
00:14:08,208 --> 00:14:10,333
calculations, a lot of theoretical

443
00:14:10,333 --> 00:14:13,291
biology that goes on to be able to to

444
00:14:13,291 --> 00:14:14,875
understand that. And I think the

445
00:14:14,875 --> 00:14:16,833
nutrition department at the Toronto Zoo

446
00:14:16,833 --> 00:14:19,000
is very active in those calculations for

447
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:20,541
other species that I

448
00:14:20,541 --> 00:14:21,791
think is is just wonderful.

449
00:14:22,333 --> 00:14:23,916
Now, let's get into the this is great. I

450
00:14:23,916 --> 00:14:25,375
really appreciate you coming on to talk

451
00:14:25,375 --> 00:14:26,416
about that because that's what I wanted

452
00:14:26,416 --> 00:14:28,500
to to get to get the audience to

453
00:14:28,500 --> 00:14:30,083
understand your background, your

454
00:14:30,083 --> 00:14:31,666
specialization and expertise.

455
00:14:32,916 --> 00:14:35,208
You obviously know that and you've been

456
00:14:35,208 --> 00:14:37,750
already talking to the news about this

457
00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:41,333
new project, I guess it's a company

458
00:14:41,333 --> 00:14:44,250
called Colossal. They've come out with an

459
00:14:44,250 --> 00:14:46,666
announcement that they've produced, quote

460
00:14:46,666 --> 00:14:48,833
unquote, three dire wolves.

461
00:14:49,041 --> 00:14:51,333
Now, the media and the marketing aspect

462
00:14:51,333 --> 00:14:53,125
of it, you have to respect it. They're

463
00:14:53,125 --> 00:14:54,625
coming out saying that these are dire

464
00:14:54,625 --> 00:14:57,708
wolves and we've successfully

465
00:14:57,708 --> 00:14:59,666
de-extincted these three.

466
00:14:59,666 --> 00:15:01,541
Like we brought the dire wolf back.

467
00:15:01,541 --> 00:15:04,208
That's a lot of the the for the first

468
00:15:04,208 --> 00:15:05,958
couple of days anyway, or even the first

469
00:15:05,958 --> 00:15:06,833
day. That was a lot of the

470
00:15:06,833 --> 00:15:09,458
titles on on Time magazine.

471
00:15:09,666 --> 00:15:11,541
I think it had extinct and then they put

472
00:15:11,541 --> 00:15:14,291
a cross. They put a red highlight marker

473
00:15:14,291 --> 00:15:16,166
around it and then they had the dire wolf

474
00:15:16,166 --> 00:15:18,833
there. Now, obviously, it's it's it's

475
00:15:18,833 --> 00:15:19,916
from it from. Well, actually, I should

476
00:15:19,916 --> 00:15:21,166
ask you from from a

477
00:15:21,166 --> 00:15:22,541
scientific point of view.

478
00:15:23,708 --> 00:15:26,500
This is pretty phenomenal, right? Is this

479
00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:28,000
is this something that's like this is

480
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:30,083
incredible that we were able to do this

481
00:15:30,083 --> 00:15:33,583
as scientists is to inject the dire wolf

482
00:15:33,583 --> 00:15:37,500
DNA into a gray wolf DNA and to be able

483
00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:40,166
to produce an animal

484
00:15:40,166 --> 00:15:41,791
that has dire wolf DNA.

485
00:15:41,791 --> 00:15:42,833
That's pretty incredible, right?

486
00:15:44,583 --> 00:15:49,416
So, obviously, there's a lot of parts to

487
00:15:49,416 --> 00:15:53,125
this big, big picture here. The

488
00:15:53,125 --> 00:15:57,750
techniques that were done are very

489
00:15:57,750 --> 00:16:01,500
impactful and obviously, the funding and

490
00:16:01,500 --> 00:16:03,791
staffing resources at Colossal, they were

491
00:16:03,791 --> 00:16:06,750
able to to ramp up these technologies

492
00:16:06,750 --> 00:16:09,416
very quickly, what might have taken, you

493
00:16:09,416 --> 00:16:11,666
know, a zoo or a university longer to do.

494
00:16:11,708 --> 00:16:15,625
So, so, so technologically speaking,

495
00:16:16,208 --> 00:16:18,875
these are very important advancements for

496
00:16:18,875 --> 00:16:22,166
science in general. Right. Gotcha. Yeah.

497
00:16:22,625 --> 00:16:24,750
Now, one thing that I always I always

498
00:16:24,750 --> 00:16:26,416
find interesting. You mentioned like they

499
00:16:26,416 --> 00:16:27,875
had the resources, the financial

500
00:16:27,875 --> 00:16:29,083
resources to really

501
00:16:29,083 --> 00:16:31,666
accelerate that process to be.

502
00:16:31,958 --> 00:16:35,708
I looked at the number was 435 million

503
00:16:35,708 --> 00:16:40,166
dollars. Now, we biologists salivate at

504
00:16:40,166 --> 00:16:42,208
that amount of money. You know what I

505
00:16:42,208 --> 00:16:45,375
mean? Because as you well know, that goes

506
00:16:45,375 --> 00:16:48,000
a long way in conservation, not

507
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,416
restoration, but in conservation. It

508
00:16:50,416 --> 00:16:51,333
takes a lot of money.

509
00:16:51,708 --> 00:16:53,916
It always is more expensive when you

510
00:16:53,916 --> 00:16:55,750
restore a habitat or you restore species

511
00:16:55,750 --> 00:16:57,916
in this case, right? 435 million dollars

512
00:16:57,916 --> 00:17:00,041
to get this thing started. Who knows how

513
00:17:00,041 --> 00:17:01,500
much is going to cost for other species?

514
00:17:01,916 --> 00:17:03,791
And maybe that will get cheaper if this

515
00:17:03,791 --> 00:17:06,375
continues on. That's a topic that we'll

516
00:17:06,375 --> 00:17:07,291
talk about in a bit.

517
00:17:07,666 --> 00:17:10,125
But I feel as though, you know, that's a

518
00:17:10,125 --> 00:17:12,208
lot of money that could be put towards

519
00:17:12,208 --> 00:17:14,083
other things in conservation, which we'll

520
00:17:14,083 --> 00:17:15,375
get to in a little bit. But the science

521
00:17:15,375 --> 00:17:17,000
of it, you're right. I feel like it's

522
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,916
pretty cool that we were able to do that.

523
00:17:19,958 --> 00:17:24,083
Now, the question I ask you and you're

524
00:17:24,083 --> 00:17:26,250
like, I feel you have the expertise to

525
00:17:26,250 --> 00:17:27,500
really answer this and I'm sure you've

526
00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:29,291
thought about a lot of the ethical ways

527
00:17:29,291 --> 00:17:31,541
and even the scientific ways of how do

528
00:17:31,541 --> 00:17:35,750
we, you know, consider this a dire wolf

529
00:17:35,750 --> 00:17:37,875
species, right? Because if you if you

530
00:17:37,875 --> 00:17:39,416
really think about the information that's

531
00:17:39,416 --> 00:17:40,583
come out that a lot of people probably

532
00:17:40,583 --> 00:17:43,125
know is that, you know, this this chain

533
00:17:43,125 --> 00:17:45,750
of DNA that the Grey Wolf has is probably

534
00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:47,125
like, you know, 22 to

535
00:17:47,125 --> 00:17:48,666
23,000 genes within the DNA.

536
00:17:48,708 --> 00:17:51,000
And this is an estimate. This is what I'm

537
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,833
getting off of reports. I don't know for

538
00:17:52,833 --> 00:17:54,833
sure. But this is around the thing. They

539
00:17:54,833 --> 00:17:57,375
did like, I think it was like, it was

540
00:17:57,375 --> 00:18:00,458
either like 20 different changes to 14

541
00:18:00,458 --> 00:18:02,791
genes or 14 different changes to 20 of

542
00:18:02,791 --> 00:18:04,625
those segments. So very, very small

543
00:18:04,625 --> 00:18:07,750
percentage of the Grey Wolf was altered

544
00:18:07,750 --> 00:18:09,500
of the DNA, a Grey Wolf, the day it was

545
00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:11,666
altered for dire wolf characteristics.

546
00:18:13,250 --> 00:18:16,583
So, from a scientific like taxonomy point

547
00:18:16,583 --> 00:18:19,875
of view, what do we consider is this

548
00:18:19,875 --> 00:18:22,250
considered like a new species or the dire

549
00:18:22,250 --> 00:18:24,125
wolf species? How do is it? Are there

550
00:18:24,125 --> 00:18:29,166
like certain regulations or credentials

551
00:18:29,166 --> 00:18:31,500
that that scientists follow that will

552
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:33,416
that we would say, yes, this is a dire

553
00:18:33,416 --> 00:18:35,000
wolf species or no, this is just a

554
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:36,916
genetically altered Grey Wolf species.

555
00:18:38,666 --> 00:18:42,458
That is very important question. And I

556
00:18:42,458 --> 00:18:46,541
think people need to understand the the

557
00:18:46,541 --> 00:18:49,458
regulatory part of it and and then can

558
00:18:49,458 --> 00:18:52,166
make up their mind. So, you know, science

559
00:18:52,166 --> 00:18:55,958
is very methodical and the definition of

560
00:18:55,958 --> 00:18:58,791
species, how years ago it

561
00:18:58,791 --> 00:18:59,958
was based on morphology.

562
00:19:00,666 --> 00:19:01,666
And I think we've moved away from that

563
00:19:01,666 --> 00:19:03,958
because we know that morphology doesn't

564
00:19:03,958 --> 00:19:06,333
give you the entire picture. So now we

565
00:19:06,333 --> 00:19:09,083
are using genetics to make sure that

566
00:19:09,083 --> 00:19:12,291
they're different species. Doing it was

567
00:19:12,291 --> 00:19:14,458
20 edits on 14 genes.

568
00:19:15,208 --> 00:19:16,291
I always get those mixed up.

569
00:19:17,708 --> 00:19:21,000
But minuscule minuscule. Yeah. Yeah, it

570
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:24,500
really is just genetic modification. It

571
00:19:24,500 --> 00:19:27,666
is not a new species. And if you think,

572
00:19:27,666 --> 00:19:30,500
as an example, I have a Maltese at home,

573
00:19:30,958 --> 00:19:33,708
right? My Maltese is not a great day. But

574
00:19:33,708 --> 00:19:36,916
I'll guarantee there's you know, 20 size

575
00:19:36,916 --> 00:19:39,875
and co color edits between the Maltese

576
00:19:39,875 --> 00:19:43,000
and the Great Dane, maybe 50, maybe 10.

577
00:19:43,708 --> 00:19:46,708
But but to do morphology based changes

578
00:19:46,708 --> 00:19:51,000
and then declared a new species is not

579
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,791
telling the full truth. A species is much

580
00:19:54,791 --> 00:19:57,125
more complex than co color and size.

581
00:19:58,083 --> 00:19:59,208
And I think that's what they were

582
00:19:59,208 --> 00:20:02,333
according to a lot of the PR and a lot of

583
00:20:02,333 --> 00:20:04,250
the articles that Colossus, the colossal

584
00:20:04,250 --> 00:20:06,458
came out with. So not necessarily with

585
00:20:06,458 --> 00:20:09,375
where other scientists were like yourself

586
00:20:09,375 --> 00:20:10,625
or other other experts

587
00:20:10,625 --> 00:20:11,666
were commenting on it.

588
00:20:11,708 --> 00:20:14,166
This is what they put out as their as

589
00:20:14,166 --> 00:20:16,541
their PR, you know, a lot of them saying

590
00:20:16,541 --> 00:20:18,291
we just want to see if we could make a

591
00:20:18,291 --> 00:20:20,583
dire wolf like our species that would

592
00:20:20,583 --> 00:20:24,208
express the dire wolf gene. So having I

593
00:20:24,208 --> 00:20:26,041
think they said a main or even being like

594
00:20:26,041 --> 00:20:27,708
six feet long, I think are some of the

595
00:20:27,708 --> 00:20:29,166
characteristics that that

596
00:20:29,166 --> 00:20:30,291
they that they discussed.

597
00:20:30,958 --> 00:20:32,791
They they never actually came out and

598
00:20:32,791 --> 00:20:34,625
said this is a dire wolf species.

599
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,833
However, a lot of the media came out and

600
00:20:37,833 --> 00:20:39,541
saying, hey, the dire wolf is back, the

601
00:20:39,541 --> 00:20:41,166
dire wolf back. And of course, the dire

602
00:20:41,166 --> 00:20:43,458
wolf is very popular in in

603
00:20:43,458 --> 00:20:45,666
the Game of Thrones version.

604
00:20:45,666 --> 00:20:49,125
They even had George R.R. Martin, you

605
00:20:49,125 --> 00:20:50,625
know, as part of the photo shoot, he even

606
00:20:50,625 --> 00:20:52,333
cried when he saw them and they're

607
00:20:52,333 --> 00:20:53,708
beautiful puppies. Like, let's be honest

608
00:20:53,708 --> 00:20:55,375
as animal lovers, you know, you want to

609
00:20:55,375 --> 00:20:56,833
hug them and you want to play with them.

610
00:20:56,833 --> 00:20:59,833
However, there, you know, there was I

611
00:20:59,833 --> 00:21:01,666
think a lot of scientists are up in arms

612
00:21:01,666 --> 00:21:03,250
because, you know, people are calling

613
00:21:03,250 --> 00:21:05,041
this, you know, they brought back the

614
00:21:05,041 --> 00:21:07,958
dire, the dire wolf. That's not the case.

615
00:21:08,375 --> 00:21:10,041
Correct? Is that like from a scientific

616
00:21:10,041 --> 00:21:11,208
point of view, they didn't

617
00:21:11,208 --> 00:21:13,333
bring back a dire wolf, right?

618
00:21:14,666 --> 00:21:19,000
Correct. So one to say to announce that,

619
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,416
you know, some really amazing lab

620
00:21:21,416 --> 00:21:25,375
experiments were done. Really, what the

621
00:21:25,375 --> 00:21:28,166
advancement is, is the ability to edit

622
00:21:28,166 --> 00:21:31,666
more than one gene or low site at a time.

623
00:21:31,916 --> 00:21:34,625
So they made 20 edits at the same time.

624
00:21:34,708 --> 00:21:36,750
That's that's called multiplex gene

625
00:21:36,750 --> 00:21:39,875
editing spectacular. I mean, that that is

626
00:21:39,875 --> 00:21:44,000
an advancement. The challenge scientists

627
00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,291
are having is to say that anything was

628
00:21:46,291 --> 00:21:50,083
resurrected or de extincted, or even that

629
00:21:50,083 --> 00:21:54,666
it is a different species is really, you

630
00:21:54,666 --> 00:21:55,833
know, skewing the

631
00:21:55,833 --> 00:21:58,416
reality of what a species is.

632
00:21:58,916 --> 00:22:03,166
Right. So if we're going to, you know,

633
00:22:03,166 --> 00:22:05,000
there's a pop culture involved here, you

634
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,166
said it, this is Game of Thrones land,

635
00:22:07,166 --> 00:22:09,875
which I sadly didn't watch, but now I

636
00:22:09,875 --> 00:22:13,000
might go back and watch. But but we are

637
00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,291
in the pop culture and people want to

638
00:22:15,291 --> 00:22:18,583
call them dire wolves. So, you know, and

639
00:22:18,583 --> 00:22:20,208
from a pop culture stance,

640
00:22:20,458 --> 00:22:22,250
okay, you know, that's fine.

641
00:22:22,791 --> 00:22:26,291
But from a scientific communication

642
00:22:26,291 --> 00:22:29,083
standpoint, we have to stay true to the

643
00:22:29,083 --> 00:22:31,416
science. So we do have to call them

644
00:22:31,416 --> 00:22:33,666
genetically modified organisms, rather

645
00:22:33,666 --> 00:22:35,750
than a new species. They're genetically

646
00:22:35,750 --> 00:22:38,000
modified gray wolves. Yeah, right.

647
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,166
Gotcha. Now I have to ask this as someone

648
00:22:40,166 --> 00:22:41,500
who works for the zoo and the zoo is

649
00:22:41,500 --> 00:22:44,166
very, very big on not only having, you

650
00:22:44,166 --> 00:22:46,375
know, scientists and experts, but also

651
00:22:46,375 --> 00:22:47,791
being able to communicate that

652
00:22:47,791 --> 00:22:48,666
science to the public, right?

653
00:22:48,666 --> 00:22:51,750
Every one of you at the staff there are

654
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:54,125
very good at discussing about the

655
00:22:54,125 --> 00:22:55,541
animals, the different characteristics,

656
00:22:55,541 --> 00:22:57,333
their personalities of the animals that

657
00:22:57,333 --> 00:22:58,833
you have at the zoo, but also the work

658
00:22:58,833 --> 00:23:00,708
that you do, which is very complex. You

659
00:23:00,708 --> 00:23:03,500
have to have that ability to say that to

660
00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:05,291
a public audience that may or may not

661
00:23:05,291 --> 00:23:07,000
have the background, like a biology

662
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:08,083
background or anything

663
00:23:08,083 --> 00:23:09,291
like a science background.

664
00:23:09,291 --> 00:23:11,333
And you guys are very good at doing what

665
00:23:11,333 --> 00:23:12,958
you do. Now here's the question I pose to

666
00:23:12,958 --> 00:23:16,041
you. Okay. The media comes out saying

667
00:23:16,041 --> 00:23:17,666
dire wolves are back, right? De extinct. Everything like that.

668
00:23:17,708 --> 00:23:20,791
Scientists come out and be like, well,

669
00:23:20,791 --> 00:23:23,458
actually hold on a second. Like that's

670
00:23:23,458 --> 00:23:26,583
not the case in this particular point,

671
00:23:26,583 --> 00:23:29,000
but everybody's excited that this dire

672
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,666
wolf is back. And this is the first time

673
00:23:30,666 --> 00:23:32,750
they've some of them have most of them

674
00:23:32,750 --> 00:23:35,458
have ever heard of this type of, you

675
00:23:35,458 --> 00:23:36,958
know, of this technology is

676
00:23:36,958 --> 00:23:38,750
biotechnologies to bring in. So they get

677
00:23:38,750 --> 00:23:40,625
excited about that, especially in a new

678
00:23:40,625 --> 00:23:42,833
cycle. That is, let's be honest, crap

679
00:23:42,833 --> 00:23:45,666
right now. Like it's not very nice. So we have this, like, you know, some of the things that we're doing that are really, really cool.

680
00:23:45,666 --> 00:23:47,958
We have this, like, you know, scientists

681
00:23:47,958 --> 00:23:49,166
are always, I always feel like the

682
00:23:49,166 --> 00:23:51,416
scientists are like the parents of, of,

683
00:23:51,625 --> 00:23:53,416
you know, the public words like, yeah, it

684
00:23:53,416 --> 00:23:55,500
is kind of cool, but it's not quite the

685
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:56,291
way it is. And they're all

686
00:23:56,291 --> 00:23:58,125
just like, you ruin everything.

687
00:23:58,125 --> 00:23:59,208
Like, you know, it's almost that

688
00:23:59,208 --> 00:24:01,250
perception as a scientist where you have

689
00:24:01,250 --> 00:24:03,458
to say it because we're scientists, but

690
00:24:03,458 --> 00:24:05,208
also people are like, but dire wolves,

691
00:24:05,208 --> 00:24:08,375
like we want dire wolves. How do you deal

692
00:24:08,375 --> 00:24:10,250
with that where you can speak

693
00:24:10,250 --> 00:24:12,375
intelligently on the subject?

694
00:24:13,666 --> 00:24:16,500
But in a way where you're not seen as,

695
00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:20,166
you know, downing the the the the this

696
00:24:20,166 --> 00:24:22,041
new sort of announcement.

697
00:24:23,458 --> 00:24:25,875
Okay, that's a really important question.

698
00:24:26,166 --> 00:24:28,750
And I think that's what really good

699
00:24:28,750 --> 00:24:31,416
science communicators are about. And

700
00:24:31,416 --> 00:24:34,458
perhaps because we work in zoos and our

701
00:24:34,458 --> 00:24:36,875
goal is to educate as well as doing

702
00:24:36,875 --> 00:24:39,750
science, we really focus on educating

703
00:24:39,750 --> 00:24:41,583
from like two-year-olds

704
00:24:41,708 --> 00:24:46,000
to 72 year olds. We have to, you know,

705
00:24:46,250 --> 00:24:49,500
master the span of the language. But I

706
00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:52,708
think what is really important is to

707
00:24:52,708 --> 00:24:56,291
celebrate the science, the science that

708
00:24:56,291 --> 00:24:59,500
was done needs to be celebrated in the

709
00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:01,333
sense that they are developing

710
00:25:01,333 --> 00:25:03,291
technologies that can be

711
00:25:03,291 --> 00:25:04,666
useful for many things.

712
00:25:04,666 --> 00:25:09,291
But then we need to stay true to science.

713
00:25:09,833 --> 00:25:11,916
And one of the reasons is because it is a

714
00:25:11,916 --> 00:25:13,958
very difficult time in the world now,

715
00:25:14,708 --> 00:25:17,708
where, you know, people are questioning

716
00:25:17,708 --> 00:25:20,375
what is being said in social media, on

717
00:25:20,375 --> 00:25:23,500
the internet. And if scientists don't say

718
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:26,541
stay true to the word, to the science,

719
00:25:27,458 --> 00:25:29,958
then it becomes a slippery slope for

720
00:25:29,958 --> 00:25:30,666
scientific integrity.

721
00:25:30,708 --> 00:25:34,875
So we celebrate what was done. But then

722
00:25:34,875 --> 00:25:37,000
we clearly state that, you know, we'd

723
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,416
like to call these genetically modified

724
00:25:39,416 --> 00:25:41,750
gray wolves. Right. But we celebrate how

725
00:25:41,750 --> 00:25:44,458
they got there. Exactly. Yeah. And I

726
00:25:44,458 --> 00:25:45,833
agree with you. I think that's that's

727
00:25:45,833 --> 00:25:46,625
really important,

728
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:47,666
especially from a public perception.

729
00:25:47,666 --> 00:25:50,500
Like we know scientists sometimes in the

730
00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:54,083
public are not really seen as, you know,

731
00:25:54,083 --> 00:25:55,875
the regular people that everybody that we

732
00:25:55,875 --> 00:25:57,791
are, you know, and this is why I started

733
00:25:57,791 --> 00:25:59,791
the podcast is to get to know people and

734
00:25:59,791 --> 00:26:02,541
and how we behave and what our likes and

735
00:26:02,541 --> 00:26:04,333
dislikes are and then how we feel about

736
00:26:04,333 --> 00:26:05,666
certain topics like this.

737
00:26:05,666 --> 00:26:08,208
But it's also when when we get an idea

738
00:26:08,208 --> 00:26:10,291
like this, they're not just the questions

739
00:26:10,291 --> 00:26:12,000
of this is great technology and this is

740
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,375
really cool. And we celebrate it. But

741
00:26:13,375 --> 00:26:16,000
there are a lot of thoughts from an

742
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,625
ethical point of view of what we're doing

743
00:26:18,625 --> 00:26:20,708
here. And I'd like to talk about this for

744
00:26:20,708 --> 00:26:22,125
the rest of the interview. And that is,

745
00:26:22,916 --> 00:26:25,500
okay, so now we have these these wolves,

746
00:26:25,500 --> 00:26:27,750
these genetically modified wolves,

747
00:26:27,750 --> 00:26:28,666
modified wolves with

748
00:26:28,666 --> 00:26:30,666
dire wolf genes in them.

749
00:26:31,666 --> 00:26:34,500
This means that there's genes in this

750
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:35,958
these wolves. We don't know if they're

751
00:26:35,958 --> 00:26:37,875
going to be dominant. We don't know if

752
00:26:37,875 --> 00:26:39,916
they're going to be recessive. We have no

753
00:26:39,916 --> 00:26:43,666
idea. They are in a two thousand acre

754
00:26:43,666 --> 00:26:47,750
park or reserve that they're monitored by

755
00:26:47,750 --> 00:26:49,291
like 10, 10 different people.

756
00:26:50,583 --> 00:26:51,958
And they're, they're well secured

757
00:26:51,958 --> 00:26:53,708
according to the company, according to

758
00:26:53,708 --> 00:26:57,791
colossal. Say they get out. Right. This

759
00:26:57,791 --> 00:26:59,083
is what we're always worried as

760
00:26:59,083 --> 00:26:59,666
biologists in conservation.

761
00:27:00,708 --> 00:27:02,708
As we worry about Atlantic salmon being

762
00:27:02,708 --> 00:27:05,375
farmed in open pen nets and what if they

763
00:27:05,375 --> 00:27:07,416
get out? That's a concern that, you know,

764
00:27:07,416 --> 00:27:09,458
the aquaculture facilities as well as

765
00:27:09,458 --> 00:27:11,041
biologists and the government are all

766
00:27:11,041 --> 00:27:13,708
worried about what if they get out and

767
00:27:13,708 --> 00:27:17,250
what if they interact with gray wolves

768
00:27:17,250 --> 00:27:17,666
within their area, right?

769
00:27:17,666 --> 00:27:20,000
They're obviously in probably a similar

770
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:21,875
habitat. That's why they're located. We

771
00:27:21,875 --> 00:27:23,000
don't know where they're located, but we

772
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,875
know they're in northern in northern US.

773
00:27:25,791 --> 00:27:28,708
What if that again, what if these animals

774
00:27:28,708 --> 00:27:32,333
start to interact and start to breed with

775
00:27:32,333 --> 00:27:35,541
these animals? Could this, even though

776
00:27:35,541 --> 00:27:37,500
there's the small amount of genes that

777
00:27:37,500 --> 00:27:39,500
are changed, could this

778
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:41,666
affect the local population?

779
00:27:41,666 --> 00:27:44,750
Especially as an invasive species.

780
00:27:46,291 --> 00:27:49,458
Okay. So, so those are the things, you

781
00:27:49,458 --> 00:27:52,125
know, when, when scientists are always

782
00:27:52,125 --> 00:27:55,791
not the fun ones at the party is because

783
00:27:55,791 --> 00:28:00,541
we're always the ones calculating risk.

784
00:28:00,750 --> 00:28:02,666
Yes. Yes. In our mind, calculating risk.

785
00:28:02,708 --> 00:28:06,708
So absolutely, this is not a different

786
00:28:06,708 --> 00:28:08,958
species. We know that they can interbreed

787
00:28:08,958 --> 00:28:14,125
with gray wolves. We know that even a

788
00:28:14,125 --> 00:28:18,125
really protected habitat that the the

789
00:28:18,125 --> 00:28:19,916
chance of escape is always there. It's

790
00:28:19,916 --> 00:28:25,000
never 100% full proof. So, so this animal

791
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:26,666
is larger looks different.

792
00:28:27,666 --> 00:28:31,250
We actually the the laboratory

793
00:28:31,250 --> 00:28:33,750
experiments were not properly done to

794
00:28:33,750 --> 00:28:37,958
understand how the selective advantage.

795
00:28:38,958 --> 00:28:42,041
Will it out compete gray wolves with will

796
00:28:42,041 --> 00:28:44,666
the hybrids out compete natural gray

797
00:28:44,666 --> 00:28:48,416
wolves we actually like the the

798
00:28:48,416 --> 00:28:50,333
difference between an academic study

799
00:28:50,333 --> 00:28:52,375
where a lot of the checks and balances

800
00:28:52,375 --> 00:28:54,208
through the repeated laboratory

801
00:28:54,208 --> 00:28:54,666
experiments are done.

802
00:28:54,708 --> 00:28:58,875
And the paper is published. This is a

803
00:28:58,875 --> 00:29:01,666
case where the pups were made the moment

804
00:29:01,666 --> 00:29:04,166
is celebrated, but we actually don't have

805
00:29:04,166 --> 00:29:08,500
all the answers yet. So the word invasive

806
00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:12,833
species could be the reality. So, you

807
00:29:12,833 --> 00:29:15,458
know, right now they're saying they're

808
00:29:15,458 --> 00:29:16,666
not slated for release.

809
00:29:16,708 --> 00:29:20,375
But you know, the discussion is always

810
00:29:20,375 --> 00:29:24,083
there. Yeah, if the decision is made, you

811
00:29:24,083 --> 00:29:26,083
know, five, 10 years from now or two

812
00:29:26,083 --> 00:29:28,083
years from now that there's a possibility

813
00:29:28,083 --> 00:29:31,416
of release. Let us remember that there is

814
00:29:31,416 --> 00:29:35,708
no actual, you know, border in the wild

815
00:29:35,708 --> 00:29:39,208
between states between provinces. These

816
00:29:39,208 --> 00:29:41,500
animals can get anywhere and they are

817
00:29:41,500 --> 00:29:42,625
predators. So they're,

818
00:29:42,625 --> 00:29:43,625
they're top of the line.

819
00:29:44,666 --> 00:29:46,500
I mentioned breeding, but you're looking

820
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:49,666
at affecting, you know, prey species and

821
00:29:49,666 --> 00:29:51,875
and food for other like that could affect

822
00:29:51,875 --> 00:29:53,625
the food availability for other wolf

823
00:29:53,625 --> 00:29:55,875
wolves and so forth. So that could that

824
00:29:55,875 --> 00:29:57,416
that's something I never really thought

825
00:29:57,416 --> 00:29:58,291
of. But obviously something

826
00:29:58,291 --> 00:29:59,375
that you have to think about.

827
00:29:59,833 --> 00:30:02,541
And now, you know, we don't know if they

828
00:30:02,541 --> 00:30:04,125
plan on making more. We don't know if

829
00:30:04,125 --> 00:30:06,208
this is an ongoing breeding breeding

830
00:30:06,208 --> 00:30:08,625
program. So we'll let colossal decide

831
00:30:08,625 --> 00:30:10,500
that and announce that in terms of

832
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:12,083
because we don't know that. But it's

833
00:30:12,083 --> 00:30:13,875
definitely a consideration. Obviously, if

834
00:30:13,875 --> 00:30:15,625
they continue to breed them, they're

835
00:30:15,625 --> 00:30:16,708
going to have to do something with them.

836
00:30:16,708 --> 00:30:19,041
They can't just use a 2000 acre park.

837
00:30:19,500 --> 00:30:21,750
Now, it would be cool if people could see

838
00:30:21,750 --> 00:30:23,166
them and people can look at them. I think

839
00:30:23,166 --> 00:30:24,625
again, like just to see if they do

840
00:30:24,625 --> 00:30:27,875
express that those genes later on in life

841
00:30:27,875 --> 00:30:28,666
as they become an adult and see what they can do.

842
00:30:28,708 --> 00:30:29,208
And if they do express that those genes later on in life as they become an adult

843
00:30:29,208 --> 00:30:31,583
and see what this ancient species look

844
00:30:31,583 --> 00:30:33,166
like or this, you know, 10,000 year old

845
00:30:33,166 --> 00:30:35,000
species look like. I think it would be

846
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,500
kind of kind of an interesting thing from

847
00:30:36,500 --> 00:30:37,916
a scientific point of view and definitely

848
00:30:37,916 --> 00:30:42,083
interesting for for for other people that

849
00:30:42,083 --> 00:30:43,750
that are, you know, want to know more

850
00:30:43,750 --> 00:30:46,291
about about animals. Now, it's

851
00:30:46,291 --> 00:30:47,708
interesting. I was I was reading on the

852
00:30:47,708 --> 00:30:50,916
CBC article where Colossal like the CEO

853
00:30:50,916 --> 00:30:53,041
Ben Lam says that, you know, the project

854
00:30:53,041 --> 00:30:54,625
started out two years ago to get people

855
00:30:54,625 --> 00:30:55,250
talking about

856
00:30:55,250 --> 00:30:56,875
endangered red wolf populations.

857
00:30:57,708 --> 00:30:58,583
And they said with this technology,

858
00:30:58,583 --> 00:31:01,000
they've actually used a less invasive

859
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,458
technique it developed while working with

860
00:31:03,458 --> 00:31:05,333
diarwolves. They actually produce clone

861
00:31:05,333 --> 00:31:08,708
for cloned red wolves. Now, you are

862
00:31:08,708 --> 00:31:11,500
involved in a lot of, you know, in vitro

863
00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:14,416
fertilization and, you know, taking those

864
00:31:14,416 --> 00:31:15,666
eggs, experiment and being able to.

865
00:31:32,833 --> 00:31:37,875
We don't understand why this is so hard to explain. But this is the 00 sorry, 20 fact agent. Now, this it the game's

866
00:31:37,875 --> 00:31:42,625
sort of cliché joke in that now. the ancient DNA to produce clones of, you

867
00:31:42,625 --> 00:31:44,958
know, present-day DNA, correct?

868
00:31:46,291 --> 00:31:49,041
Correct, correct. And in fact, Toronto

869
00:31:49,041 --> 00:31:50,916
Zoo has red wolf sperm

870
00:31:50,916 --> 00:31:52,541
frozen in its cryobank.

871
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,000
We were one of the original partners in

872
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,750
the Red Wolf Project in the 90s and 2000s

873
00:31:58,750 --> 00:32:00,375
where we were trying to develop

874
00:32:00,375 --> 00:32:00,916
artificial

875
00:32:00,916 --> 00:32:03,166
insemination programs. So we're

876
00:32:03,166 --> 00:32:06,666
kind of connected in the past. But the

877
00:32:06,666 --> 00:32:09,750
Red Wolf is a species where we've got

878
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:11,958
genetic diversity in the biobank,

879
00:32:12,250 --> 00:32:15,750
you know, a number of males going back

880
00:32:15,750 --> 00:32:18,500
almost to the founders. So there's a lot

881
00:32:18,500 --> 00:32:20,000
of genetic diversity present.

882
00:32:20,416 --> 00:32:22,708
Think about that 35-year frozen bison

883
00:32:22,708 --> 00:32:26,333
calf. We can have 30-year-old

884
00:32:26,333 --> 00:32:29,958
frozen red wolf pups as well.

885
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,833
So when you're looking at a species like

886
00:32:32,833 --> 00:32:35,458
Red Wolf, I don't see the need for these

887
00:32:35,458 --> 00:32:38,708
really high end genetic editing

888
00:32:38,708 --> 00:32:41,791
technologies to to ensure the genetic

889
00:32:41,791 --> 00:32:43,916
diversity of the Red Wolf right now.

890
00:32:44,541 --> 00:32:47,208
Okay. And now we are going to go a little

891
00:32:47,208 --> 00:32:49,291
bit beyond the dire wolves now because

892
00:32:49,291 --> 00:32:51,125
this this company has also come out and

893
00:32:51,125 --> 00:32:55,166
said it has DNA, not intact DNA, but DNA

894
00:32:55,166 --> 00:32:58,375
from woolly mammoths, the thylacine, I

895
00:32:58,375 --> 00:32:59,833
think, which is the Tasmanian tiger.

896
00:33:00,875 --> 00:33:02,166
Ancient species that have been extinct

897
00:33:02,166 --> 00:33:04,500
and the dodo bird, which is pretty much

898
00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:07,000
the representative for all extinct

899
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,000
species. You know, everybody's it's part

900
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,750
of that. That, you know, that expression,

901
00:33:11,750 --> 00:33:13,375
the way of the dodo, meaning it's going

902
00:33:13,375 --> 00:33:14,958
out the window kind of thing. It's it's

903
00:33:14,958 --> 00:33:16,500
going to go extinct. These are other

904
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:18,375
species. But, you know, the woolly

905
00:33:18,375 --> 00:33:19,666
mammoth is one that's that's

906
00:33:19,666 --> 00:33:21,000
interesting. A large animal.

907
00:33:21,625 --> 00:33:23,375
Obviously, people have been, you know,

908
00:33:23,625 --> 00:33:26,000
bringing it back in movies and, you know,

909
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:27,666
cartoons and it's it's a it's an

910
00:33:27,666 --> 00:33:28,916
interesting animal, obviously, because

911
00:33:28,916 --> 00:33:30,875
we're like the elephant is such an iconic

912
00:33:30,875 --> 00:33:33,125
animal present day that the woolly

913
00:33:33,125 --> 00:33:35,166
mammoth becomes iconic as well from an

914
00:33:35,166 --> 00:33:35,958
ancient perspective.

915
00:33:36,666 --> 00:33:39,208
They say that they are on their way to

916
00:33:39,208 --> 00:33:42,916
actually producing a woolly mammoth. Now,

917
00:33:43,833 --> 00:33:47,208
woolly mammoths like environments that

918
00:33:47,208 --> 00:33:49,000
are very similar to

919
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:49,541
Canadian environments.

920
00:33:50,583 --> 00:33:54,291
Where do they like? I guess the question

921
00:33:54,291 --> 00:33:55,791
is like, where do they plan on putting

922
00:33:55,791 --> 00:33:57,375
these these animals? I know this is a

923
00:33:57,375 --> 00:33:58,833
company that's US based and then maybe

924
00:33:58,833 --> 00:34:00,458
they try and put it, you know, northern

925
00:34:00,458 --> 00:34:02,458
part. But we're talking about dire

926
00:34:02,458 --> 00:34:03,791
wolves. We're talking about woolly

927
00:34:03,791 --> 00:34:05,541
mammoths. And I'm not sure about the

928
00:34:05,541 --> 00:34:07,541
Tasmanian tiger or the dodo, but these

929
00:34:07,541 --> 00:34:10,791
are both animals that like cold areas

930
00:34:10,791 --> 00:34:11,541
like colder temperatures.

931
00:34:12,583 --> 00:34:15,166
I'm going to go out and say tundra Arctic

932
00:34:15,166 --> 00:34:17,458
tundra, like very like colder animals.

933
00:34:17,458 --> 00:34:20,541
Obviously, they had the fur on them. I

934
00:34:20,541 --> 00:34:24,500
guess the question is, is one, where are

935
00:34:24,500 --> 00:34:26,041
we going to put them? And is it right to

936
00:34:26,041 --> 00:34:27,833
bring them back during a time where the

937
00:34:27,833 --> 00:34:30,125
earth is warming? You know what I mean?

938
00:34:30,125 --> 00:34:32,666
Like we're an unprecedented warming due

939
00:34:32,666 --> 00:34:36,000
to humans. Is it ethically right to bring

940
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,166
these animals back in

941
00:34:37,166 --> 00:34:38,541
such a bad situation?

942
00:34:39,583 --> 00:34:42,916
So again, these are these are really

943
00:34:42,916 --> 00:34:44,958
great questions with the dire wolf and

944
00:34:44,958 --> 00:34:47,000
the woolly mammoth. We're talking about

945
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,041
two species that had a native range in in

946
00:34:51,041 --> 00:34:54,500
what is present day Canada. Right. So, so

947
00:34:54,500 --> 00:34:55,541
that's why we should be paying attention.

948
00:34:56,583 --> 00:35:00,375
Because, you know, they would do very

949
00:35:00,375 --> 00:35:03,875
well in our ecosystems up here. The

950
00:35:03,875 --> 00:35:07,333
tricky thing is that the environment

951
00:35:07,333 --> 00:35:10,125
today in the north or across Canada is

952
00:35:10,125 --> 00:35:13,375
not what it was in the ice age when they

953
00:35:13,375 --> 00:35:15,458
were last here. It is

954
00:35:15,458 --> 00:35:15,541
a different ecosystem.

955
00:35:15,583 --> 00:35:23,458
And so not knowing the gene edits that

956
00:35:23,458 --> 00:35:25,708
will be done to create the woolly mammoth

957
00:35:25,708 --> 00:35:30,375
or the the full dire wolf. We really

958
00:35:30,375 --> 00:35:32,208
don't have an understanding of how

959
00:35:32,208 --> 00:35:34,708
they're going to perform in today's

960
00:35:34,708 --> 00:35:38,458
environment. And remember you you earlier

961
00:35:38,458 --> 00:35:41,500
on had said about like our nutrition team

962
00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:44,291
understanding the nutrition, not only in

963
00:35:44,291 --> 00:35:44,583
human care, but in the world.

964
00:35:45,583 --> 00:35:50,208
So what what is left for them? What truly

965
00:35:50,208 --> 00:35:53,750
will they eat? Not only to you know, we

966
00:35:53,750 --> 00:35:56,291
say in the zoo world, it's not about just

967
00:35:56,291 --> 00:36:00,041
surviving. It's about thriving. Yes, yes.

968
00:36:00,791 --> 00:36:01,750
You don't want to release them to the

969
00:36:01,750 --> 00:36:04,375
wild to hang on like to barely survive.

970
00:36:04,916 --> 00:36:07,083
They need to be able to thrive and build

971
00:36:07,083 --> 00:36:10,125
population. So yeah, can we offer that?

972
00:36:10,541 --> 00:36:12,541
Yeah, I don't think we know. Yeah.

973
00:36:12,916 --> 00:36:14,833
Well, and even thinking here's my marine

974
00:36:14,833 --> 00:36:16,875
biology brain going off here. You got you

975
00:36:16,875 --> 00:36:20,208
got a polar bear population who is

976
00:36:20,208 --> 00:36:21,708
suffering because they can't be on ice

977
00:36:21,708 --> 00:36:24,416
floats as much because of the melting sea

978
00:36:24,416 --> 00:36:26,500
ice. So they can't hunt as as what they

979
00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:28,791
used to be. So now there's evidence to

980
00:36:28,791 --> 00:36:30,708
show that they are spending more time on

981
00:36:30,708 --> 00:36:33,166
land to try and find berries and food.

982
00:36:33,416 --> 00:36:34,541
And but there's not much in

983
00:36:34,541 --> 00:36:35,541
the Arctic in terms of that.

984
00:36:35,583 --> 00:36:39,250
If you put a wooly mammoth in the Arctic,

985
00:36:39,791 --> 00:36:42,250
those polar bears might thrive just from

986
00:36:42,250 --> 00:36:44,250
hunting wooly man. I don't know if that's

987
00:36:44,250 --> 00:36:45,541
going to happen or if that would ever

988
00:36:45,541 --> 00:36:47,833
happen, but that might actually save that

989
00:36:47,833 --> 00:36:49,625
species. Now, of course, I do this in

990
00:36:49,625 --> 00:36:51,791
just because you know, you just you just

991
00:36:51,791 --> 00:36:53,958
think like out of the box kind of thing.

992
00:36:53,958 --> 00:36:56,833
But you know, we are not bringing back

993
00:36:56,833 --> 00:36:58,750
species to help other species because we

994
00:36:58,750 --> 00:36:59,541
can't control what happens in nature.

995
00:36:59,583 --> 00:37:03,291
And I think humans are often thought to

996
00:37:03,291 --> 00:37:04,541
have doing like we've done that in the

997
00:37:04,541 --> 00:37:06,541
past and it's it's failed miserably with

998
00:37:06,541 --> 00:37:08,750
invasive species and introducing species

999
00:37:08,750 --> 00:37:10,500
that they that we shouldn't have in it

1000
00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:12,583
affecting the rest of the environment. So

1001
00:37:12,583 --> 00:37:14,750
we even though we understand more of the

1002
00:37:14,750 --> 00:37:16,875
intricacies of food webs and so forth, I

1003
00:37:16,875 --> 00:37:19,041
feel like it's difficult to to do that

1004
00:37:19,041 --> 00:37:21,125
kind of thing. But yeah, from an ethical

1005
00:37:21,125 --> 00:37:23,416
standpoint, you know, looking at there's

1006
00:37:23,416 --> 00:37:26,500
so many things to to to address.

1007
00:37:27,041 --> 00:37:28,541
Hopefully, you know, colossal has some answers as the same thing.

1008
00:37:28,583 --> 00:37:31,250
With that,istry, and universal.

1009
00:37:58,583 --> 00:38:02,166
Overall from your perspective, personally

1010
00:38:02,166 --> 00:38:03,041
and scientifically,

1011
00:38:05,291 --> 00:38:06,333
is this something, what

1012
00:38:06,333 --> 00:38:07,875
do you think about all of this?

1013
00:38:08,666 --> 00:38:11,166
In terms of, obviously we know what you

1014
00:38:11,166 --> 00:38:12,666
think about in terms of the science.

1015
00:38:12,666 --> 00:38:14,083
It's really interesting that they're able

1016
00:38:14,083 --> 00:38:15,458
to do multiple

1017
00:38:15,458 --> 00:38:17,083
different segments and gene

1018
00:38:17,083 --> 00:38:18,166
expressions, which I think is really,

1019
00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:19,291
obviously I agree with

1020
00:38:19,291 --> 00:38:19,958
you, it's really cool.

1021
00:38:20,625 --> 00:38:22,333
But with the whole press release, with

1022
00:38:22,333 --> 00:38:23,958
the whole idea of

1023
00:38:23,958 --> 00:38:26,416
de-extinction, what are your

1024
00:38:26,458 --> 00:38:28,291
thoughts on that from a scientific point

1025
00:38:28,291 --> 00:38:29,541
of view, this whole thing?

1026
00:38:31,958 --> 00:38:34,916
You know, I'm a

1027
00:38:34,916 --> 00:38:36,791
biotechnologist by training, right?

1028
00:38:36,791 --> 00:38:38,500
Those of us at reproductive technology,

1029
00:38:38,791 --> 00:38:39,875
we're biotechnologists.

1030
00:38:40,916 --> 00:38:42,916
And as much as I've spent my entire

1031
00:38:42,916 --> 00:38:44,416
career working in

1032
00:38:44,416 --> 00:38:47,666
biotechnology, what I'm realizing

1033
00:38:48,041 --> 00:38:50,791
is that we have to

1034
00:38:50,791 --> 00:38:52,625
connect humans to nature.

1035
00:38:54,541 --> 00:38:57,041
The way for us to stay healthy, like the

1036
00:38:57,041 --> 00:38:59,333
planetary health, global health, one

1037
00:38:59,333 --> 00:39:02,000
health, the way for humans, animals,

1038
00:39:02,250 --> 00:39:04,666
plants and the environment to continue to

1039
00:39:04,666 --> 00:39:05,708
be healthy is that we

1040
00:39:05,708 --> 00:39:06,666
have to connect to it.

1041
00:39:07,208 --> 00:39:10,958
And I think by giving us an out, this

1042
00:39:10,958 --> 00:39:14,583
type of synthesized nature, whether we're

1043
00:39:14,583 --> 00:39:17,958
synthesizing animals or plants or, you

1044
00:39:17,958 --> 00:39:22,291
know, aquatics or things in the sky,

1045
00:39:23,250 --> 00:39:24,750
it's an easy out.

1046
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:26,000
It doesn't necessarily

1047
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:27,541
connect people to nature.

1048
00:39:28,166 --> 00:39:30,791
And that's the one thing that I think

1049
00:39:30,791 --> 00:39:32,666
we're missing to create

1050
00:39:32,666 --> 00:39:34,250
that nature positive world.

1051
00:39:34,500 --> 00:39:37,375
The Red Wolf is still having problems,

1052
00:39:37,375 --> 00:39:40,333
not because we didn't set up a cryobank,

1053
00:39:40,333 --> 00:39:43,666
but because humans refuse to live with

1054
00:39:43,666 --> 00:39:45,500
them and we're

1055
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:46,875
shooting them, poisoning them.

1056
00:39:47,083 --> 00:39:47,958
And there was roadkill

1057
00:39:47,958 --> 00:39:49,625
and other challenges.

1058
00:39:50,291 --> 00:39:54,125
So, so like it's time for humans to step

1059
00:39:54,125 --> 00:39:57,291
up and not not think that there's there's

1060
00:39:57,291 --> 00:40:01,791
a tech out, an easy out technology is

1061
00:40:01,791 --> 00:40:03,125
going to give us an easy out.

1062
00:40:03,625 --> 00:40:05,500
And I feel as though, you know, having

1063
00:40:05,500 --> 00:40:07,375
this these these cryobanks, having the

1064
00:40:07,375 --> 00:40:10,208
ability to repopulate is a tool in the

1065
00:40:10,208 --> 00:40:11,708
tool, the conservation tool belt, but

1066
00:40:11,708 --> 00:40:14,291
it's not the tool that we need to think

1067
00:40:14,291 --> 00:40:15,583
we're not just going to start producing

1068
00:40:15,583 --> 00:40:16,541
and then do whatever we

1069
00:40:16,541 --> 00:40:17,625
want with these animals.

1070
00:40:17,625 --> 00:40:19,041
That's not what we do.

1071
00:40:19,083 --> 00:40:20,708
We want to make sure that we conserve

1072
00:40:20,708 --> 00:40:22,958
what we have right there and not affect

1073
00:40:22,958 --> 00:40:24,166
the rest of the environment.

1074
00:40:24,541 --> 00:40:25,833
And if we could reproduce them and help

1075
00:40:25,833 --> 00:40:27,083
the species, that's great.

1076
00:40:27,375 --> 00:40:29,166
But it's a species that's today living

1077
00:40:29,166 --> 00:40:31,666
today having intact DNA, right?

1078
00:40:32,666 --> 00:40:32,875
Exactly.

1079
00:40:33,416 --> 00:40:35,166
You know, the key word in reproductive

1080
00:40:35,166 --> 00:40:37,083
technology is assisted

1081
00:40:37,083 --> 00:40:38,541
reproductive technology.

1082
00:40:39,041 --> 00:40:41,416
It's to assist as needed

1083
00:40:41,416 --> 00:40:43,208
not to create from scratch.

1084
00:40:43,750 --> 00:40:43,958
Gotcha.

1085
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:45,541
Now, I have to ask this question because

1086
00:40:45,541 --> 00:40:47,541
everybody in the comments every time they

1087
00:40:47,541 --> 00:40:50,500
see something when it comes to cryogenic

1088
00:40:50,500 --> 00:40:51,833
labs and bringing back

1089
00:40:51,833 --> 00:40:53,750
species and this is for fun.

1090
00:40:54,583 --> 00:40:56,458
How close are we to Jurassic Park?

1091
00:40:58,916 --> 00:40:59,916
My lifetime.

1092
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:02,958
Bringing back dynamic.

1093
00:41:03,333 --> 00:41:05,125
We're able to bring back the wooly man

1094
00:41:05,125 --> 00:41:07,125
with are we able to bring back dinosaurs?

1095
00:41:07,125 --> 00:41:08,500
Is that like with

1096
00:41:08,500 --> 00:41:10,333
bird DNA like with birds?

1097
00:41:10,333 --> 00:41:11,416
Are we able to do that?

1098
00:41:12,083 --> 00:41:12,666
You know what?

1099
00:41:13,125 --> 00:41:15,791
My understanding is that perhaps the DNA

1100
00:41:15,791 --> 00:41:17,666
is just too fragmented.

1101
00:41:18,541 --> 00:41:18,958
Gotcha.

1102
00:41:19,250 --> 00:41:21,791
So again, you know, colossal is

1103
00:41:21,791 --> 00:41:24,875
developing the steps to get there.

1104
00:41:25,083 --> 00:41:26,875
But but I think we're talking about

1105
00:41:26,875 --> 00:41:28,583
species where where we just

1106
00:41:28,583 --> 00:41:30,333
don't have enough intact DNA.

1107
00:41:30,916 --> 00:41:31,458
Gotcha.

1108
00:41:31,458 --> 00:41:32,208
Well, that's really great.

1109
00:41:32,458 --> 00:41:34,000
Gabby, this has been fantastic.

1110
00:41:34,333 --> 00:41:36,041
Again, I really appreciate you doing this

1111
00:41:36,041 --> 00:41:38,291
on such short notice and bringing your

1112
00:41:38,291 --> 00:41:39,500
scientific expertise and

1113
00:41:39,500 --> 00:41:39,958
your personal expertise.

1114
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,000
I really appreciate all the work that you

1115
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,750
do for the zoo and what you've been doing

1116
00:41:43,750 --> 00:41:45,625
for conservation and coming on here and

1117
00:41:45,625 --> 00:41:49,125
giving our audience a great perspective

1118
00:41:49,125 --> 00:41:51,375
on what's been happening with with these

1119
00:41:51,375 --> 00:41:52,708
dire wolves and colossal.

1120
00:41:52,708 --> 00:41:53,583
And thank you so much.

1121
00:41:53,708 --> 00:41:54,916
I'd love to have you

1122
00:41:54,916 --> 00:41:56,000
back on the podcast again.

1123
00:41:57,166 --> 00:41:57,375
Wonderful.

1124
00:41:57,625 --> 00:42:00,000
I'll take up the invitation and and in

1125
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:01,041
return, I want to thank you

1126
00:42:01,041 --> 00:42:02,166
for sharing these stories.

1127
00:42:02,416 --> 00:42:04,291
I think it's important for everyone to

1128
00:42:04,291 --> 00:42:07,333
have a deep understanding and and then be

1129
00:42:07,333 --> 00:42:09,125
able to to form their own thoughts.

1130
00:42:09,750 --> 00:42:10,250
Absolutely.

1131
00:42:10,666 --> 00:42:10,875
Absolutely.

1132
00:42:10,875 --> 00:42:12,000
And I'm going to tell us the people I

1133
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,000
know I have a lot of people

1134
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:15,125
who listen across the world.

1135
00:42:15,541 --> 00:42:17,541
But if you're ever in Toronto, go visit

1136
00:42:17,541 --> 00:42:19,916
the Toronto Zoo, talk to the zookeepers.

1137
00:42:19,916 --> 00:42:21,750
They know a lot about about these animals

1138
00:42:21,750 --> 00:42:22,916
and they can talk a lot

1139
00:42:22,916 --> 00:42:24,541
about the cryogenics lab.

1140
00:42:24,541 --> 00:42:26,000
They can talk a lot about the research on

1141
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:27,958
not only the conservation, but the

1142
00:42:27,958 --> 00:42:29,166
welfare of the animals.

1143
00:42:29,166 --> 00:42:30,291
You guys do a great job

1144
00:42:30,291 --> 00:42:31,583
in communicating that.

1145
00:42:31,583 --> 00:42:32,666
And I really appreciate it.

1146
00:42:32,666 --> 00:42:34,500
So for the audience members for coming to

1147
00:42:34,500 --> 00:42:35,916
Toronto, let me know and I'll come with

1148
00:42:35,916 --> 00:42:37,500
you and I'll we'll we'll we'll be able to

1149
00:42:37,500 --> 00:42:38,583
talk all about that.

1150
00:42:38,708 --> 00:42:40,333
So thank you again, Gabby.

1151
00:42:40,333 --> 00:42:40,416
Really appreciate it.

1152
00:42:40,416 --> 00:42:41,875
We'd love to have you back on.

1153
00:42:42,416 --> 00:42:42,833
Excellent.

1154
00:42:43,250 --> 00:42:43,958
Have a great day.

1155
00:42:44,166 --> 00:42:44,500
Thanks.

1156
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:44,708
You too.

1157
00:42:45,083 --> 00:42:46,375
Thank you, Gabby, for joining us on

1158
00:42:46,375 --> 00:42:47,625
today's episode of the How

1159
00:42:47,625 --> 00:42:48,541
to Protect the Ocean podcast.

1160
00:42:48,875 --> 00:42:50,041
It was great to have you on.

1161
00:42:50,375 --> 00:42:51,125
Great to be able to

1162
00:42:51,125 --> 00:42:51,833
answer those questions.

1163
00:42:52,500 --> 00:42:54,125
I hope you're listening to this and

1164
00:42:54,125 --> 00:42:55,666
saying, hey, you know what?

1165
00:42:55,666 --> 00:42:56,750
Like I'm an audience member.

1166
00:42:56,750 --> 00:42:57,000
I talk.

1167
00:42:57,125 --> 00:42:58,666
I come here to hear about the

1168
00:42:58,666 --> 00:42:59,750
ocean to hear about science.

1169
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,083
This is an interesting science news piece

1170
00:43:03,083 --> 00:43:06,791
because it was it was worldwide in a time

1171
00:43:06,791 --> 00:43:08,458
where the new cycle sucks.

1172
00:43:08,958 --> 00:43:09,833
And we're always hearing

1173
00:43:09,833 --> 00:43:11,083
about disappointing news.

1174
00:43:11,083 --> 00:43:12,166
This is kind of something that

1175
00:43:12,166 --> 00:43:13,166
was like, hey, you know what?

1176
00:43:13,625 --> 00:43:14,791
This is cool news.

1177
00:43:14,791 --> 00:43:15,958
This is something interesting is

1178
00:43:15,958 --> 00:43:17,291
something that you can talk to people

1179
00:43:17,291 --> 00:43:18,750
about in a positive way.

1180
00:43:19,500 --> 00:43:21,791
And I wanted to make sure that you had

1181
00:43:21,791 --> 00:43:24,000
all the resources and understood all of

1182
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,000
the implications of a significant

1183
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:28,750
achievement like this.

1184
00:43:29,041 --> 00:43:30,833
And I think that's what I wanted to do

1185
00:43:30,833 --> 00:43:32,041
for today's episode is just

1186
00:43:32,041 --> 00:43:33,166
to give you the information.

1187
00:43:33,166 --> 00:43:36,083
And Gabby obviously had an amazing

1188
00:43:36,083 --> 00:43:37,208
expertise background.

1189
00:43:37,750 --> 00:43:38,750
She brought the

1190
00:43:38,750 --> 00:43:40,208
information like no other.

1191
00:43:40,208 --> 00:43:41,500
And I'm really happy that I

1192
00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:42,916
got to have her on the podcast.

1193
00:43:43,375 --> 00:43:44,208
I asked her yesterday

1194
00:43:44,208 --> 00:43:45,708
and she did it like today.

1195
00:43:45,708 --> 00:43:46,333
Today is Wednesday.

1196
00:43:46,541 --> 00:43:47,666
I'm going to release this on a Friday.

1197
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:49,333
But I asked her on a Tuesday.

1198
00:43:49,333 --> 00:43:50,583
She says, yes, I'm available.

1199
00:43:51,250 --> 00:43:52,291
And she was able to do this.

1200
00:43:52,291 --> 00:43:53,291
And not only does she did

1201
00:43:53,291 --> 00:43:54,500
it in such great fashion.

1202
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:56,833
So I really appreciate Gabby for for

1203
00:43:56,833 --> 00:43:58,875
being on the show and for bringing us the

1204
00:43:58,875 --> 00:44:00,750
information that we needed to know about

1205
00:44:00,750 --> 00:44:02,291
these direwalls or these genetically

1206
00:44:02,291 --> 00:44:03,500
modified gray whales.

1207
00:44:03,833 --> 00:44:05,541
So and answering the questions and

1208
00:44:05,541 --> 00:44:08,708
talking about questions around marketing

1209
00:44:08,708 --> 00:44:10,625
and PR for these types of species.

1210
00:44:10,916 --> 00:44:12,208
And is it people are like, hey, we

1211
00:44:12,208 --> 00:44:14,125
brought the direwalls back and is it but

1212
00:44:14,125 --> 00:44:15,750
it's not really a direwolf from a

1213
00:44:15,750 --> 00:44:16,625
scientific point of view.

1214
00:44:16,625 --> 00:44:18,708
And there are scientific regulations and

1215
00:44:18,708 --> 00:44:22,916
functions that we have to follow around

1216
00:44:22,916 --> 00:44:25,333
naming certain species or coming up with

1217
00:44:25,333 --> 00:44:28,333
a different species just because they may

1218
00:44:28,333 --> 00:44:29,708
look like a different species.

1219
00:44:29,791 --> 00:44:30,583
Doesn't mean genetically

1220
00:44:30,583 --> 00:44:31,708
they are a different species.

1221
00:44:31,750 --> 00:44:34,291
And I really loved how Gabby highlighted

1222
00:44:34,291 --> 00:44:36,458
that aspect that we used to be species on

1223
00:44:36,458 --> 00:44:38,250
morphology, but we don't do that anymore

1224
00:44:38,250 --> 00:44:40,458
because we have the genetic material or

1225
00:44:40,458 --> 00:44:42,000
ability to read the genetic material.

1226
00:44:42,416 --> 00:44:43,500
Now we look at it, how

1227
00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:45,583
diverse they are from genetics.

1228
00:44:45,583 --> 00:44:47,083
And look, this happens every once in a

1229
00:44:47,083 --> 00:44:49,791
while where we see, you know, we see

1230
00:44:49,791 --> 00:44:52,583
species like say fish species that we

1231
00:44:52,583 --> 00:44:54,083
think are a large population.

1232
00:44:54,083 --> 00:44:56,250
And then we do the genetic, you know, we

1233
00:44:56,250 --> 00:44:57,833
do the genetic comparison of different

1234
00:44:57,833 --> 00:44:58,875
like subpopulations.

1235
00:44:59,208 --> 00:45:00,958
And we find out that one population is

1236
00:45:00,958 --> 00:45:02,250
genetically different from another

1237
00:45:02,250 --> 00:45:03,541
population that could be because they

1238
00:45:03,541 --> 00:45:06,041
were isolated a hundred years ago, two

1239
00:45:06,041 --> 00:45:07,000
thousand years ago, ten

1240
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,666
thousand years ago geographically.

1241
00:45:09,125 --> 00:45:10,458
And so they came up with their own

1242
00:45:10,458 --> 00:45:12,791
genetic mutations and they started to

1243
00:45:12,791 --> 00:45:14,916
develop that way and evolve that way.

1244
00:45:14,916 --> 00:45:15,875
But morphologically, like

1245
00:45:15,875 --> 00:45:17,416
outside, they look the same.

1246
00:45:17,875 --> 00:45:18,708
So we just assume

1247
00:45:18,708 --> 00:45:19,541
that they were the same.

1248
00:45:19,541 --> 00:45:21,250
And when we categorize based on

1249
00:45:21,250 --> 00:45:22,041
morphology, we

1250
00:45:22,041 --> 00:45:23,250
categorize it the same way.

1251
00:45:23,583 --> 00:45:24,791
Now we're being able to look at the

1252
00:45:24,791 --> 00:45:26,333
genetic material and understanding that

1253
00:45:26,333 --> 00:45:27,291
when we compare them,

1254
00:45:27,291 --> 00:45:28,083
some of them are different.

1255
00:45:28,083 --> 00:45:28,750
We look at it.

1256
00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:29,541
Are they new species?

1257
00:45:30,125 --> 00:45:32,916
And is that new species species at risk

1258
00:45:32,916 --> 00:45:34,708
because they don't have the population

1259
00:45:34,708 --> 00:45:36,583
numbers to say, hey,

1260
00:45:36,583 --> 00:45:37,541
we're a healthy population.

1261
00:45:37,791 --> 00:45:39,166
We have to find out more about that.

1262
00:45:39,166 --> 00:45:41,500
And it incurs more research.

1263
00:45:42,166 --> 00:45:43,625
It inspires more research.

1264
00:45:43,875 --> 00:45:46,000
It demands more research to be able to

1265
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,500
make sure that we protect that species.

1266
00:45:47,541 --> 00:45:51,416
So this gets into a whole other side of

1267
00:45:51,416 --> 00:45:53,291
biology, a whole other side of genetics

1268
00:45:53,291 --> 00:45:55,166
and conservation biology.

1269
00:45:55,166 --> 00:45:57,000
And I think it's extremely important to

1270
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:58,500
talk about something that we don't talk

1271
00:45:58,500 --> 00:46:00,416
about on this podcast at all.

1272
00:46:00,416 --> 00:46:01,083
This is the first time

1273
00:46:01,083 --> 00:46:02,125
we've really talked about it.

1274
00:46:02,125 --> 00:46:03,375
And I'm really happy that

1275
00:46:03,375 --> 00:46:04,625
Gabby was able to join us.

1276
00:46:04,625 --> 00:46:06,583
And I hope you got what you came for.

1277
00:46:06,583 --> 00:46:08,125
I hope you got the information that you

1278
00:46:08,125 --> 00:46:10,000
needed to say, hey, when people talk to

1279
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:10,916
you, it's like, hey, I was

1280
00:46:10,916 --> 00:46:11,708
listening to this podcast.

1281
00:46:12,208 --> 00:46:12,750
This is what they said

1282
00:46:12,750 --> 00:46:13,583
they're an expert on.

1283
00:46:13,625 --> 00:46:15,000
You know, it's a cool thing that they're

1284
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:18,791
able to modify multiple genes at once and

1285
00:46:18,791 --> 00:46:20,541
express it into an animal.

1286
00:46:21,125 --> 00:46:22,458
And but there's also a lot of questions

1287
00:46:22,458 --> 00:46:24,541
that and implications from this and what

1288
00:46:24,541 --> 00:46:25,541
we're going to do in the future.

1289
00:46:25,958 --> 00:46:27,125
You know, I think that's something the

1290
00:46:27,125 --> 00:46:28,708
questions that become interesting and

1291
00:46:28,708 --> 00:46:29,708
what they're going to do with these

1292
00:46:29,708 --> 00:46:32,208
species and how much how often are they

1293
00:46:32,208 --> 00:46:34,458
going to be reproducing these species?

1294
00:46:34,458 --> 00:46:36,625
Is this just three dire wolves and that's

1295
00:46:36,625 --> 00:46:37,458
cool or are they going

1296
00:46:37,458 --> 00:46:38,416
to be producing more?

1297
00:46:38,833 --> 00:46:39,833
What are we going to do with those?

1298
00:46:39,833 --> 00:46:40,500
Where are they going to go?

1299
00:46:40,833 --> 00:46:41,916
All these questions need to

1300
00:46:41,916 --> 00:46:44,333
be answered in time, of course.

1301
00:46:44,541 --> 00:46:45,375
But I'd love to hear your

1302
00:46:45,375 --> 00:46:46,791
opinion on what's happening.

1303
00:46:47,125 --> 00:46:49,125
You know, like the story, the way they

1304
00:46:49,125 --> 00:46:51,791
came out, the story, the naming of the

1305
00:46:51,791 --> 00:46:52,750
dire wolf compared to a

1306
00:46:52,750 --> 00:46:54,125
genetically modified gray wolf.

1307
00:46:54,125 --> 00:46:54,625
Do you even care?

1308
00:46:55,208 --> 00:46:56,666
I would love to know your opinion.

1309
00:46:56,666 --> 00:46:58,333
Hit me up in the comments below if you're

1310
00:46:58,333 --> 00:46:59,291
watching this on YouTube.

1311
00:46:59,750 --> 00:47:01,250
Or of course, you can always contact me

1312
00:47:01,250 --> 00:47:03,875
on Instagram at How To Protect The Ocean.

1313
00:47:03,875 --> 00:47:05,750
That's at How To Protect The Ocean.

1314
00:47:05,750 --> 00:47:07,083
But thank you again for Gabby.

1315
00:47:07,250 --> 00:47:09,000
Thank you for listening to this episode

1316
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:10,333
of the How To Protect The Ocean podcast.

1317
00:47:10,625 --> 00:47:12,041
I'm your host, Andrew Lorne from the True

1318
00:47:12,041 --> 00:47:12,958
North Strong and Free.

1319
00:47:13,333 --> 00:47:13,958
Have a great day.

1320
00:47:13,958 --> 00:47:14,541
We'll talk to you next

1321
00:47:14,541 --> 00:47:15,958
time and happy conservation.