Are All Plastics Toxic? What the Science Actually Says About Microplastics and Human Health

0:00 Can plastic be considered toxic for everybody? Well, it can in my country, in Canada, because a new law was upheld in the appeals court that says plastic can be toxic to everybody. We're gonna be talking to senior campaign manager for plastics for Oceana Anthony Morrente here to explain how this decision was made and what that means for Canada in terms of single use plastics. This is the "How to Protect the Ocean" podcast. And if you love this type of information, this ocean news each and every weekday, hit that follow button so that you can not miss any of the other episodes, including Monday's episode. Okay, today we are gonna be talking with Anthony Morrente, the senior campaigner on plastics for Oceana Canada.

0:46 He's here to explain a new ruling that was upheld in the appeals court that says, "Hey, you know what? "It's okay to say that plastics can be toxic to everybody, "all plastics." And that was a recent decision that was appealed a while ago back in 2022 on a law that said, "Hey, you know what? "We're gonna put this in the Canadian Environmental "Protection Act to protect Canada "from different environmental concerns, including plastics." And then some regulations, including the single use ban on six different types of plastics that was implemented was at risk, to be honest, with this appeal that said, "Hey, you know what? "The chemical companies, the fossil fuel companies, "and so forth came out and said, "We don't think that all plastic is toxic to everyone, "and we don't think that that's a good way "of putting it in the law."

1:37 Well, it got upheld in the appeals court. And so we are now seeing, and we've already started to see some changes in restaurants, in certain types of plastics that are available. You don't see any single use plastic bags anymore. Those are gone in grocery stores. We don't see as many styrofoam cups or as really any styrofoam cups or styrofoam takeout containers. We do see other plastic containers that are still allowed out, but that will come in time. And I can't believe I'm saying this, that we've done a good thing here in Canada. We've really started to lead with plastic management and making sure that we are not using single plastic. So today, on today's episode, we're gonna get into the interview with Anthony Morrente, Senior Campaigns Manager for Oceana Canada, talking about the ban on plastics.

2:21 Enjoy the interview and I'll talk to you after. Hey Anthony, welcome back to the "How to Protect the Ocean" podcast. Are you ready to continue our conversation on banning single use plastics in Canada? Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's been three years of this conversation. So let's keep it going. (laughing) Look, it's been really interesting, following this ban. I mean, it's been in the works for a long time. Like it got actually passed earlier. We'll talk about the years and everything and getting into the specifics. It got passed. And then it got taken to court and then it got shot down. Part of it got shot down. A big part of it saying that plastic isn't toxic. And again, we'll get into the details. And then it got appealed and now we have a ruling, which is really cool to see and be able to talk to you about and get the updates on what happens now, how things are gonna happen, enforcement, what's gonna happen in the next part of the legal process.

3:14 The other side might want to appeal, all this kind of stuff. We're gonna get all into that. But before we do, Anthony, why don't you just remind the people here in the audience of who you are and what you do? Yeah, so I'm Anthony Morante, the senior plastics campaigner at Oceania Canada, based in Montreal, Quebec, and part of Oceania, which is the world's largest ocean protection focused conservation organization. And that is our Canadian branch. We exist on the East coast, the West coast, Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal. Yeah, you just moved to Montreal, which is fantastic to hear. What a great city. It is a, you know, my brother was born in Montreal.

3:55 We've always grew up, I grew up in Toronto, but always loved going back to Montreal, the old city, like the downtown and everything. It's just a cool culture to be around. I love it. You went to school there, right? Is that what you told me? Yeah, yeah. I did my master's in biology and limnology. So study of lakes and rivers. Yeah. The University of Quebec, Amaliaou, and it's been dying to come back ever since, and finally made it happen. That's fantastic. And how is it getting, like, you have a French background, I believe. Like you, how was it getting back into it and speaking French on a more regular basis? Oh, it's a joy for everyone from Ontario. No, no, I love it.

4:36 It's, I think we're really lucky as people that grow up in Ontario, that we have that good base of French. I think it grew up in a really good community that we had a Franco-Ontario, Franco-Ontarian community just next to us. Nice, nice. We didn't have this aversion to learning French. Right, right. It's very reminded how as intergesting the country can be. Yeah. But if we all embrace bilingualism. Absolutely. And when you get back, like I've lost a lot of my French, the French background, my parents were from Quebec City. And I find like when I get back and I actually try, I get that vocabulary back and it's like, it gets easier and easier and easier.

5:18 And it's ever evolving. When I, the last time I lived here was between about 2012 and 2015. And then jumping back here, the same way that English has evolved, Gen Z and Gen Alpha have completely different languages. It's the same here. But my French was like a little time capsule of like 10 years ago. Oh, wow. Yeah, so it's coming back with learning new words for everything. That's interesting. Very nice. I did not know that right on. Cool. Well, let's get into the plastic talk because like folks, I'm just going to let you know, if you don't follow, I follow you on LinkedIn. Your posts are amazing. I get all my updates on plastics, you know, and just especially now you've been really focused on not just this part here and the plastics treaty, but also plastics for big events and how big events are turning to getting a little bit more environmentally friendly and more sustainable.

6:16 Can you just talk a little bit about that before we jump into, because it's kind of related to what we're doing here in terms of talking about this, this big, this big announcement. Yeah. So I think a good way of framing this is the plastic pollution problem, plastic waste, it's a numbers game. Yeah. Plastic waste goes where populations are. They go from these huge sources of plastic waste, things like e-commerce, restaurants, grocery stores. Obviously the bigger cities are the bigger producers of plastic waste. So when I've been pushing with Oceania for like national regulation, there's also a lot of things that we can work with decision makers at much smaller levels at subnational governments, municipalities, provinces and territories, but also large companies, large festivals, large events.

7:02 You have to think if you just want to target what is a huge source of unnecessary single use plastic. Think about a stadium. Oh my gosh. 25 to 50,000 people. Everyone is drinking, eating. That's generally always a single use item more than often. It's a single use plastic item. And that is a system where it's truly unnecessary. It's a closed loop system. At a restaurant, they give you a reusable when you sit down and eat and have a drink. Why can't a venue like a hockey arena, a football stadium, a soccer pitch be the exact same thing? Why can't things like the Canadian national exhibition and folk festivals provide reusables and become zero waste so that fans don't have this guilt when they see an overflowing garbage can?

7:51 And really we kind of turned our attention to this because globally, a lot of other countries do that. They have zero waste initiatives for their large venues and events. Even in Canada, if you look to, I'm just going to shout out Montreal, they've been doing this for years. When you go down to the Jazz Festival, the Feteb Mokko, Oceaga, F1, it's all reusable. There's a very limited amount of waste that's coming out to it. And it is just, I think it's kind of our role as a non-for-profit, as a charity to connect these local reuse companies that are providing solutions for venue operators, for event organizers, connect them with other event organizers and venue operators across the country because it shouldn't just be a solution found in Montreal or in a small suburb like Tévonne.

8:42 It should also be in Toronto, Vancouver, Edmonton, Calgary, name it, it should be there. Agreed, agreed. I love the work. It's great. If you haven't followed Anthony on LinkedIn, I highly recommend you do. I'll put, it's okay. I'll put your link in the show notes because I think it's just, it's nice to know that people are out there fighting for that. But you also provide a lot of information on how easy it is and the, like the optimism of event venues that are actually doing reasonable and events that are doing reasonable and sustainable materials and events. So I love that. Let's get into the decision here. So why don't we just kind of go back a couple of a few years when this law came through, give a brief description of everything that's happened.

9:24 And then of course we can announce the new, if anybody doesn't know from the title, we can announce the new decision. Yeah, for sure. So this, oh boy, this started back in 2021. So we're recording this in 2026. We want to link the timeline on this. The liberal federal government under Trudeau announced that they were going to ban single use plastics. The ones that are most problematic, they preemptively named things like six pack ring carriers, styrofoam, plastic checkout bags, stir sticks, straws, etc. So they did that and set this kind of market signal.

10:04 You saw large businesses start acting quite quickly in that. We saw companies like Tim Hortons get rid of their straws and reshape the top of their cups to not require them. You saw companies like Loblaws start charging money for single use plastic bags. Walmart take them out entirely. You saw the market start reacting to a signal from the top, essentially. So to actually make good on this public commitment, the federal government looked to what legal powers do we have and they found the Canadian Environmental Protection Act. It's usually called SEPA, C-E-P-A, and they went through that regulatory action. It's an act. It's meant to protect people and the environment.

10:53 It is both a joint Ministry of Health and Ministry of Environment piece of legislation. And in it, there's a list of toxic substances. Now, toxic is like a kind of fiery word for a lot of people, but simply put, it's toxic meaning if it gets into the environment, it poses the risk of causing harm. Right. There is a list under SEPA under this toxic substance list called Schedule 1. And there is a myriad of different things under there. There's arsenic, carbon, microbeads, lead. And by putting something under that Schedule 1, that toxic substance list, it allows the government to then start passing regulations to target large businesses, products, etc.

11:40 And that's why it's called SEPA, which is a way in which that toxic substance is getting into the environment. A really good example of this is they said microbeads are on the list and then they banned subsequent regulation, plastic microbeads from personal care and beauty cosmetics. They added lead to the list. That's why you have unleaded paint. That's why you have unleaded diesel gasoline. Yeah. So when they said, what do we put on this list in order to fight plastic pollution, they could have put one item, a plastic bottle, a plastic bag. But the reality is plastics are everywhere. They're evolving all of the time. They vary so highly in resin type, polymer, color, additives, function, shape, purpose, everything.

12:29 Yeah. Polyethylene and polypropylene don't just exist as a fork. They exist as part of a car. They exist as your screen. It's like they're everywhere. Right. Like this shirt is probably polyester. Yes, it's actually not. It's cotton. But most people have polyester, polyester blends and plastic is everywhere. So because of the vast broadness of plastics and its high utility, the fact that it's always evolving, they simply list it. They added plastic manufactured items. And when I say simply, I don't mean that they just picked it willy nilly. There is a massive science assessment that came with it. Okay.

13:09 Decades of research, really creating a solid legal foundation as to why they have to list so broadly. They added that list in 2021. And then subsequently in 2022, that is when the first regulation came out of that. That was the single use plastic ban. The official title is the prohibition on single use plastic products. And they listed six products under there. So that was us in 2022 and almost immediately you kind of got the guards that from the I'll call them big plastic with the largest plastic companies and also the largest oil and gas and petrochemical companies. Right.

14:01 And then they were joined by the provinces of Alberta and Saskatchewan, as well as the American petrochemical companies, the American chemistry council. A lot of international interveners and brought forward two legal challenges to the government in 2022. They brought forward a challenge on that listing itself, the very foundation that the government could act to fight plastic pollution. And then they also challenged the ban directly. Now, the court said, you can't do everything at once, pick one or the other. The court's essentially triage and said, let's start with your legal challenge against the foundation, that listing of plastic plastics or plastics plastics under the toxic substance list under SIPA.

14:46 And then this started what is now known as our three plus year. Yeah. The court said we will hear your trial. You can you can take this to the federal court in downtown Toronto. We can hear from the federal government. We can hear from the plastic industry about why you think this is sound or if this was an overreach, etc. And while that legal battle was happening, all the regulations, all the laws, they'll stay in place. Okay. And you saw industries shift. Yep. We saw checkup bags get out of stores. We saw six pack ring carriers come off. We saw single use plastic utensils gone.

15:29 We haven't seen a plastic clamshell in a very long time, nor have you seen a plastic styrofoam clamshell in a long time and they haven't seen a styrofoam coffee cup. Yeah, time industry shifted, they reacted, they followed the law, they were compliant and hey, it worked. You do not see styrofoam cups on the side of the road or at the beach or floating. You do not see plastic checkout bags stuck up in trees that used to be so frustrating. You do still see a lot of plastic. Yes. Yeah, but the things that they banned don't show up in the environment nearly as often as they used to. Right. So we saw that it was working, which was really great to see going into that trial because it works.

16:16 And groups like Oceania and Environmental Defense, we actually joined the trial. We supported the federal government. They heard that. If I can, I want to say March. Yeah. 2023 I think that's when we went to court for the first time, three day trial, really, really interesting stuff in the federal court. And then once all the arguments were made there, mainly there were questions about jurisdictional overreach, plastic waste being a provincial problem, not a national problem. Questions about constitutionality. You listed far too broadly. It's giving the government way too much power.

16:57 Right. Plastics are a massive economy. Sounds like an Alberta thing. Like an Alberta argument. It's the idea that you also have to remember that these laws are put in place, not for one government in particular. It's the government's could change over and it's it's a valid argument to say, are we giving a government too much power on an industry that is so money. It provides so much drive to the economy, etc, etc. Those were hurting court. It took about March till November. The court took that back, thought about it, came up with a decision and they sided with the plastics industry. They said the government did an overreach. They listed way too broadly.

17:43 This is not their battle to pick. This should have been something that businesses in the province took over. Obviously, that was very disappointing. Yeah, I remember having you on for that. Yeah, yeah. It was a not a not a blue sky a day for the environmental sector for sure. Also, I have to admit, like it's probably not great for businesses that made that huge investment in transitioning away from single use plastic. Yeah, that is a huge slap in the face to regulatory certainty clarity on where they should be investing and putting their time and money into. So the government of Canada at that time did not agree with the federal court.

18:25 Neither did Oceana or the other intervening environmental groups and we took that to the federal court of appeal. The federal court of appeal said yes, this is a very important issue. We will hear the case. But the government of Canada at that time did not agree with the federal court of appeal.

19:06 So the government of Canada at that time came to the environmental side of the argument. The groups that were supporting the federal government that grew significantly. Right. So now we're jumping into 2024. We have support for the federal government coming from the province of British Columbia, which is really important for the counter argument from the federal government. And as British Columbia is out here saying, No, this is a huge problem. It is overwhelming provincial systems. We need help from other levels of government in this. This is a huge problem and the data is clear. We're not handling this correctly.

19:48 There's too many things on the market that our provincial jurisdiction can't stop from getting on there. We need how interesting and we need cooperation with the federal government. So when it looks to the other intervening environmental groups, you had Davis Azuki Foundation join you had Greenpeace join you had the Canadian Association of Physicians for the Environment, which was really important because in that time since the first trial, lots of new research coming out about the implications of micro plastics and plastic pollution on human health as well as the chemicals within plastics. And so that was really important there. And you had additional animal rights groups joined to really underscore encounter one of the strong arguments that was coming from the plastics industry. They said, you actually need to test how much plastic animals can handle before they start suffering.

20:41 And animal rights groups, animal justice in particular, it's very clear that you're then asking to see how many forks can this sea otter swallow before it starts to feel pain. I don't know if that's an ethical. That's awful. That's torture for sea otters. Yeah. It's a valid counter argument. Yeah. So we had this good coalition come over and supported the federal government that was heard back in June of 2024. And since June, since June of 2024, they were holding up for a decision and that finally came to Fridays ago, just the end of January. So we had a unanimous decision. So the difference between the federal court and the federal court of appeal is that the federal court is a singular judge making a decision.

21:31 The federal court of appeal is a panel of three judges. Yeah. And those three judges, they definitely took their time. They were very methodical going through the arguments going through the questions raised in court going through the constitutional power of the overreach. Did this a national crisis? Did they act correctly in listing plastics and is this their fight to fight for the federal government? And the decision was, I mean, I am not a lawyer. I haven't read that many legal decisions from the federal court of deal. This was a very, very well written. Anyone to give it a good read. It's very pointed. It goes through each argument and it really tries to try. I read it as it's driving the message home that plastic pollution is a national crisis. Yeah.

22:29 And we should not have to wait until the environment is so far degraded that it can't be repaired in order to act proactively to try to protect it. Makes sense. I made a lot of arguments that if we were to test how much suffering an animal can do, it is both reprehensible and unethical and no government should ever do that. Right. And I think that's a very, very strong argument. And they brought up the, I think, very real understanding and practical understanding of the plastics industry is that it is rapidly evolving. It's rapidly changing and a lot of the pollution and damages that we're seeing now, micro plastics, things that you can't identify where it came from.

23:09 And this argument that not all plastics have the potential to cause harm. It's really hard to argue because there's plastic in our water or air or blood. It is the stomachs of whales. It's around the necks of seabirds. Yeah. Long as you were trying to try to make the argument that like a car's bumper doesn't cause pollution, you can easily find a car at the bottom of a lake or a river. Right. That's it. Plastic has invaded. Yeah. And that's where we're at right now. We have a newly elected liberal government led by Mark Carney. We have a new environment minister Julie De Bruisin. And we have a renewed and affirmed power for the federal government to act on fighting plastic pollution. There are a series of regulations and pollution prevention plans and legal instruments.

24:05 The government has now in its pocket and we are waiting to see if they will use them. But as of today, the government has the ability to regulate plastics. They have one law regulation. Yeah. On the books and that is the single use plastic ban. And I'm hopeful that this government will take the crisis of plastic pollution quite seriously because it affects everything at this point. And I think every day we're learning a new damage that it causes. Yeah, absolutely. We'll see some action. Thank you so much for that because it's a great, it was a great summary of what's happened all of today. I mean, it's been very slow moving, you know, over these last three years since the appeal or since the decision and then the appeal waiting for this decision. But it seems like it was worth the wait, you know, in terms of like the ban kept in.

25:01 May not have been enforced as well as we would have liked because you know, they didn't want to make too much of a big deal about it. But now that the decision has been made this regulation that they've come up with with I think it's like six different types of plastics. I believe you have single use plastics and like you said, it's it's in its very basic form right in terms of like the polyethylene and there's all these different names. They're very complicated names for a lot of people to read. So what is the direction now or even before as this was rolled out, as you mentioned, there's a lot there are a lot of businesses who have incorporated this already in their in their business because when it got rolled out, they had to there were certain ones that they had to do at certain times of the year and there was a phase out approach.

25:43 And we see a lot of it. I don't see any of your I don't see the styrofoam clamshells. I don't see the styrofoam cups. Those are pretty much gone. I do see plastic forks. I do see like plastic sing like a single use plastic takeout containers and things like that. I see lots of those. What is the the rollout now that businesses should be ready for and and do you think there'll be I know it may be difficult for you to answer because you're not part of the government but what is the enforcement that happens in this part? So let's first start like what's the rollout now? Like, is there a new national rollout that business have to look at? How does the business navigate this? I guess is what if they haven't already done so.

26:26 Yeah, so one of the I would say if you're a business listen listening to this. It's not like an environment climate change. Canada officer is going to write your store flip a little notepad. Right. What is I think likely going to happen and again, this this is a first of its kind regulation. So I'm sure the government and businesses are learning at this in concert. If you are a large purchaser contributor distributor of single use plastics, I would I would get those out of your business line right now.

27:09 Yeah, if you are putting a target on your back, it's something that Canadians are passionate about, right? When we pull Canadians across the country, it never goes below 80% for support in banning the sale manufacturing and distribution of single use plastics. Canadians, they've seen the alternatives. They've seen the benefits. They don't want it. Right. And I'm talking like across the board. This is not just like a handful of people. This is like, no, we're from different thousands of people using a non biased polling agency. We keep everything very public and transparent. Right. We keep these pulling data and it's very, it's very clear, no matter the province, age, gender, voting affiliation or past voting history. People do not like single single use plastics people don't like litter. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

28:01 It's a very basic thing. People like a clean environment. They like a clean home. They don't like litter and single use plastics. Everyone is very aware that, oh, it uses for three seconds or for the five minute walk from the store to my car to the bus. And then this piece of garbage that never gets recycled is going to either go to a landfill where it's going to outlive three generations past me. And it's going to pollute the environment or potentially get into the stomach. So the stomach of an animal I love or it's going to ruin the natural environment around me. Yeah. Like walking down the shoreline without seeing garbage on my feet. So people do not want this businesses finally with this decision have clarity. Yeah, I think like that's that's the biggest thing anyone can ask for.

28:50 I think like when I started investing in my my supply chain and rejigging the products I put out and how I interacted with my customers. This is clear. Do not provide them with single use plastic right now. That does not mean all plastics are banned. Right. All single use plastics are banned. You said before there are single use plastic take containers. Those are still legal. There are many that aren't. Yes. Any of them have black plastic. That's illegal because that never gets recycled. Any of them that are made of polystyrene styrofoam. Those are illegal. Right. Do not get recycled. Those are pure litter. So if you're a business that is doing large purchasing importing review the regulation.

29:32 Read it carefully. Have a lawyer look at it. Look at the products that you sell. Consult with them. Yeah. If anything reach out to environment climate change Canada. Yeah. They'll help you. I think that's their preferred option versus enforcement. But this is the thing you have Canadians around this country and every corner of town that hates English plastic. I wouldn't want to annoy that local citizen that all they're going to want to do is put you on blast because you're breaking the law and now it is breaking the law. Absolutely. Now as a consumer like as an individual because we have a lot of individuals here. Canadian American and so forth. But as a Canadian individual who is trying to like I want to go to places and I want to support places who use the right materials who used like who are not using the wrong materials.

30:25 Again, it can be a little confusing. You know you you want to make sure that you're doing it right. You're not calling it a business for for something bad. Are you having a problem with it? Have you been using it for a long time and you're not doing it for a long time. you know, you want to make sure that you're doing it right. You're not calling out a business for something bad. You're having that conversation. How would you, what advice would you give? Cause you've done it too. Like you, I know you monitor these places. Sometimes you call people out on social media and sometimes you're like, hey, like this is really great. This is a great example of sustainable use. What advice would you give based on your experience and all the stuff that you know, for like someone like myself or anybody like my family. When we go into a place to make sure that they are following the regulations. So I would immediately put them into two categories. Are you a large multinational corporation or are you a small mom and pop? Right.

31:08 Remember when I would I think it is very unfair to treat those two things as equals or not. So as you've mentioned, I have publicly called out company. Yeah, my reason there are large fast food chains and large cinema enterprises. Yeah, that currently have banned illegal single-use plastics for sale at their operations. And now that this decision is affirmed with the federal court of appeal. Yeah, I would say the best way to grab the attention for compliance with the law of large multinational corporations.

31:49 Public yeah, accountability. Yeah, this used to be one of the best utilities and uses of Twitter back in the day. Yeah, you could connect directly with customer service and in a very public-facing way and see change happen quite quick. I would say Twitter access turned into a different forum. But LinkedIn is highly visible as highly professional. And I think it is important that when a large multinational company or a large national company is breaking the law and it is putting the environment at risk. I think it's fair game to document it show where it's happening and tell the appropriate Department of Environment and Climate Change Canada.

32:33 Yeah, it might be good. But when it comes to a small mom pop shop, I would take a very different approach. Yeah, number one. Me and you see these regulations. We understand them that is super different from a cafe a bakery. The person that is running or franchising a small operation is not looking at federal regulation and interpreting it and changing like their hearing. Oh, there's a single plastic ban. I show what items is my item. Okay, and I think what's really difficult for them is that we don't have any regulations on labeling and branding. Yeah, they may be buying a plastic straw or plastic fork thinking that it's okay with the ban because it says biodegradable or compostable.

33:20 It's still plastic. It's illegal. Right. Point blank stop. Yeah, careful the marketing ploys that they use, right? Here's the thing. If it looks and feels like plastic, it's plastic. It's plastic. Yeah, the law simply says the regulation keeps saying law is a regular, commonly understood. But it is a regulation. The regulation for the ban clearly states if it is made of or containing plastic. Right. So biodegradable eco oxo degradable. These are all chemistry terms. Yeah. In terms of plastic, it's plastic. If you are putting out a plastic fork or straw or styrofoam and it's labeled with some sort of eco friendly wording on it or it's written in green or blue. Yeah.

34:12 It's trying to deceive you don't fall for it. You should not fall victim to breaking the law. If you are entering establishments and you see that they're doing that, I would just kindly talk to the person say, hey, I love your store. I love coming here. I'm really passionate about making sure that businesses are being sustainable. I just want you to know that this product is plastic and that is part of the federal ban. This should not be sold anymore. And just ask them, can you just make sure that you tell the owner or the franchise to just flag it for them. And if you want additional resources to double check this, I'm happy to send them. And then I would direct them to go to environment climate change Canada's website and go to websites like Oceana. I would even say in the comment section of where this is living, we can put the link to the regulation right underneath it.

35:05 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That'd be perfect. It's there's a limit to how the federal government can communicate. It can only I think it can only communicate officially in English and French. Yes. It's a right very standard, very blank. Yeah. The communication has to be pretty much dull as compete. And that doesn't work for everyone in like a huge country like ours that has much a diversity of how people speak, interact, run their businesses. And we should be accommodating to that and try to bring people along with it. But I think what's really important from this decision and from the ban is that businesses now see a pipeline.

35:46 And I think they are constantly, I mean, they started with a couple of items on the single plastic ban, but it could grow. Of course, it is a government that environment climate change Canada still has a priority for fighting plastic pollution. This minister has gone out on public statements multiple times now reaffirming that this government is committed to fighting plastic pollution, to working cooperatively with businesses, other levels of government nationally, internationally to fight plastic pollution. There's no signal coming from this federal government that they're going to all of a sudden let single waste plastics flood the Canadian market. And there's no signal that they're going to keep investing in plastic products that are just ending up in landfill or the environment or potentially putting human health at risk.

36:35 So it's a big, big market signal. Yeah. And we'll have to see what happens from it. But groups like Oceana will keep pushing for this federal government to take national action on it because Yeah, I can bring my reusable cup so many times, but I would like a law that brings us all up to speed and the impact is so big as like a little like tidbit that ban for the checkout bag. Yeah. We're a country of like are hovering around maybe a little above 40 million people. The staff from I think it was 2021 or 2022 that year Canada sold domestically somewhere like 17 billion single use plastic checkout bags.

37:22 That one law got rid of 17 billion. And that's probably like one year. That's in one year. That's in one year. One of them got some the environment they come up for a couple 100 years before it. Yeah. Microplastics which are like equally as bad. Yeah. God forbid, like how many animals they kill and as they break down and everything like that, right? It's just yeah, so it saves a lot. Yeah, it saves a lot. Now here's the thing too is that we have so there's the one aspect we have businesses who are are going to be complying to these hopefully, you know, they better be. Yeah, exactly right like and that's already started to happen and like you said, we've see we rarely see these things happen which is which is great. The other thing is on the individual side.

38:12 I still feel as though especially in the last year or so there's this fight back against especially when it comes to straws like the plastic straw and and and you know the plastic straw. But it feels like. Is for the wrong reasons you know what I mean? It's just like it's the usability of some of these items and so can you talk a little bit about the behavior of people and the thought process of people? He had president Trump come out and be like oh, plastic straws are back in and blah, blah, blah and this and and felt like people were there. I've been around people were just like, sorry, oh, sorry Ida, we love plastic straws compared to that, like, Constantin or�, you know, just because it's a wall for a male or what's going on.

38:55 And I'm like, okay, like I can't really say anything because this is what you prefer, but I'm like, why do you need a straw? A lot of times, I guess they're not, they didn't need one for, you know, because of a disability or anything like that. I'm like, well, I'm just like, we're in a nice restaurant. Why would you need a straw? Why would you just drink at it? So, you know, I put that in there, but you can see it's like a little bit of a, not necessarily a political nature, but it's just like this behavior that people have being like, oh no, like all these, some of these alternatives that we've come up with instead of plastic is just not usable or people don't like the change. How do we as a country start to, or even as individuals within our own friend groups and things like that and family groups, how do we start to encourage the use of alternatives compared to like from plastics?

39:44 Yeah, I think. I guess this is more psychological than anything else. Yeah, this is the thing. I think you're very right with the first question of, do you actually need a straw? And there are, yes, many instances where someone does need a straw for multiple different reasons. But for the vast majority of people, the answer is no, you don't need one. That's the first thing for sure. And here's where I'm gonna find common ground with people. Is a paper straw the best thing ever for drinking an iced coffee or an ice cap? No, it gets mushy. That's fine. To that, I just gotta say, drink it a little quicker. Yeah, yeah.

40:24 (laughing) Drink it a little quicker. Your iced coffee is not meant to be there for one hour. It's not supposed to get warm. I'll tell you that. It's not supposed to get warm. But like, this is the thing that is true. Innovation is happening with everything. Like you have to be practical when approaching these things. Yeah. Do you think the first alternative or substitute for something is going to be the perfect version? Right, right. There's going to be innovation in this. There are so many benefits to carrying your own reusable straw. I have seen so many ads. The metal straws, yeah. Any little things you hook onto your key chain. It folds out. Solid metal straw, you drink it, it even has a little cleaner, you pop a bag, put it away.

41:06 If you really want one and you absolutely-- Yeah. You take a straw. Yeah. The solutions are available to you. And I think it's, you have to really weigh is what I'm fighting for worth it? Right. Am I really going to get up in arms? Cause I want a plastic straw right now. And I don't care that this will sit in a landfill or go into the environment for the next 200 years, because I need something to help drink my drink for the next six minutes. Yeah. And again, there is the case where a lot of people, it is required, but again, for most people, this is not the case for it. We have to be practical about, is this something that I want to die on this hill?

41:50 Because it's not, when you look at the world in the grand scheme of things, what is happening? Is this something that is actually important? No. Yeah. If I could not have the straw in my drink right now, or I can use a paper straw, so I'm not creating garbage, I'm not creating something that is going to outlive me, then yeah, I should do it. And the nice thing about it is, when you have a national regulation, it's less like, oh, it's, oh, I'm making the sacrifice, and it's not having any impact. No, it's the country is doing this with you. We're all in this together, it's going to avoid hundreds of millions of single use plastic straws from being distributed in Canada.

42:33 Yeah. So it's, you are part of this collective movement, this collective change, and I also think we live in a North American bubble. Oh, 100%. I'm curious around the world. Oh, yeah. They just don't do this. No, it's-- And for me, when they look to us, and they see us complaining about it, they're like-- Yeah, for sure. Is this the worst thing in your game? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think we gotta put things in a perspective, are the couple of minutes to have a, I don't know, to drink my drink a little bit smoother, it's not gonna smooth their drink. No, it's true.

43:13 And you know-- It's worth it, and it's not. No, I agree. And there's a couple of arguments that I always have back at it, not like going at them, but I'm just like, well, why, like I always ask like, why do you need a straw? You know, like you said, like, why are you using this straw? Like I understand like the paper straw may not be the greatest, but why are you using a straw in general? And then they'll be like, oh, I need to, because a drink, or most of the time, because I've never come across anybody, not that there aren't, but I never come across anybody, like in my group of people that I've seen that need one, I'm just like, would you end a lot of the arguments, like, well, I don't know how clean the cup that I'm drinking out of, like say in a restaurant, I'm like, if you don't know if that cup is clean, you shouldn't be at this restaurant if you're questioning, especially in our society, like in Canada, we have certain health laws, you know, that the restaurants have to come, like, I'm not saying it's gonna be the cleanest, but these go through very hot dishwashers.

44:07 And like, if you've ever been like, I've worked at a restaurant, you know not to burn yourself on these, on the stuff that comes out of a dishwasher, because it's so hot, because they have to do certain things and stuff like that. So I feel like there's a good conversation to have out of those. And a lot of times I engage in those conversations, just being like, what are you using it for? Or why are you using it? You know, and a lot of times it's the only alternative, like, actually, it's not, you know, like when they go to like a, so let me ask you this actually is, you go to Starbucks, you know, it's very big with teenagers, I have two teenage daughters. So when you go to Starbucks, you know, my two teenage daughters love Starbucks. It's like the thing to do in their friend groups, right? In Burlington, Ontario, every cup that comes out of there, unless you're using a reasonable bottle, which a lot of them do now, because I've got them to use it, they will have a plastic cup, because they don't carry it all the time around.

44:54 Is that plastic legal or illegal? Generally, the Starbucks. So you mean like a plastic lining, or do you mean the reusable plastic cup? Not the reusable, sorry, not the, so if you go and get like a latte, I don't drink coffee or I don't go to Starbucks, but if you order just a drink, even like a fruit drink from there, it comes in like a plastic cup with a plastic cap. Oh, like the iced coffee cup. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, are those illegal? Are those like in this ban or are those part of the, like, is that like an exception or not? No, no, they're illegal because the ban specifically outlines for like takeaway items, like cups and lids, it lists certain types of plastic.

45:36 Okay. Non recyclable things like polystyrene, styrofoam. Gotcha. Just things that are, if it has black pigment in it, because black plastic just doesn't get recycled, the machine, the infrastructure we have can't recognize it, it'll just go right to landfill. Okay. But no, you can have, you can have that solid clear plastic cup, because they have changed the material. Okay. In a lot of instances, they moved it over to polypropylene or PET. Okay. The same stuff that the pop bottles and water bottles are made out of, because that's the most recoverable of recycled plastic. You see a little bit clearer data on that one. We are, the more and more research looks into this, the more problems we seem to find.

46:21 Right. With any form of recycling for plastics. Right. But it's really interesting that you mentioned Starbucks specifically, because they have actually now enacted a corporate policy, where when you go to Starbucks, if you're having your order for here, It has to. The staff are supposed to, and they're still in the process of learning this, and I think this is where citizens and consumers can step up. And if the staff don't ask for here to go, you tell them, "Oh, you're supposed to ask me for here to go." Right, right. My orders for here, I wanted a mug. I wanted a glass. I want my order on a plate. Because Starbucks' new policy is that they want to make their cafes again.

47:03 Gotcha. They wanted more lounges. They saw that they were charging a lot of money for a coffee when it's just looking like a fast food joint. That's the reality of it. It's a fast food joint with green couches and wooden floors. But it's still getting served the same quality and all just garbage. Right. Because everything, those cups are not recyclable. They're just going right to the trash. So they've actually made this policy where it's reducible, which I think is an excellent corporate policy. Absolutely. I will 100% give them their flowers for that. Yeah. Because there are so many restaurants, McDonald's, Burger King. Even if you go to the kiosk at the front desk and you save my orders for here, they're giving it to you in a bag, in takeout containers that used to be on a plate.

47:47 Yeah. They just have a tray. Yeah. They just completely abandoned it. And please tell me the last time you've been in McDonald's and there hasn't been trash all over the floor overflowing from the bins. Yeah. There should be no garbage at a onsite garbage for a restaurant or a cafe. That's crazy. They make a lot of garbage in the back of the house, but the front of the house should at best have paper straws, napkins. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Everything else should be a reusable container and then that's it. Food waste. The drinking containers drive me nuts at any of those restaurants, like at any of those fast food places. Like if you're going to stay in, just give me like a regular cup and just wash it in the back, you know.

48:32 And when you go to the waste bins, they have these sorting stations that say, "Cups, lids, recyclable garbage." And it's one big bin at the bottom. Yeah. It is such a thing. I really hate this thing that businesses do where you feel gotch'ed. Yeah. Just do the right thing. And I think this is also like a huge signal, not just from government, that they are trying to take action against plastic pollution. Consumers do not like being lied to point blank. For sure. No matter what your political affiliation is, whether you care about the environment or not, whether you care about your own human health or not. Yeah. Whether you care about plastic or not, or you hate the paper straw or not, I don't know a single person that loves getting lied to.

49:17 No, absolutely. And this is the thing that they are telling the businesses are kind of pushing, "Oh, we're going to recycle it if you put it in this bin." It's not. So why not just give me the solution that works? Yeah. And this is why at Oceana, we always go with this motto that like, "Reuse works. Recycling will not save us." Yeah. And all this talk about we need to build more infrastructure and innovate a new way of recycling and invest hundreds of millions of dollars in facilities that have never been proven to work. When we could just look back 50 years, what did work? When we had refill and reuse, when we had de-packaged items, everything didn't need to come wrapped in.

50:01 Single-use plastic bags or film. And it gave people so much freedom and variety. I do not need to cook 100 Brussels sprouts when you go to the grocery store. I really want to cook them for maybe today and tomorrow. Let me grab two little handfuls and a little brown paper bag. Because the thing that's going to lead to food waste is not the packaging. It's my inability to self-select how much food I want to buy. Oh my gosh. Yes. You need some frustrating to see. The grocery stores that they are incentivizing you to buy these large packages where it's just going to rot. It's the amount of stuff that we end up throwing out as a family of four is ridiculous.

50:44 And let me ask you, I mean, this is completely anecdotal. Yeah. Scientific fact. Of course. Those things that go bad, are they things that you bought loose or are they things that you bought in bags? All in bags. And that's the reality. Yeah. So many papers and research has shown that the biggest thing leading to food waste is one, the fact that our fridge is so big now. Yeah. It's the fact that our fridge is so big and we are buying in bags and like these giant, like weird. It's almost like we're losing autonomy. 100%. What we can pick at the grocery store. Yep. And in this time of cost of living crises and we want to be able to like guard our wallet as much as possible.

51:26 And we want to be able to make smart sustainable decisions, not just for like the environment before are also like stretching our paycheck as far as it can go. You should be able to buy as much of something as you want, rather than being forced to buy something. Yeah. And businesses have moved into this weird space where they give you a tiny little packet in single use plastic because that's really, really cheap. So they're incentivizing you to get like a basically negligible amount of anything. I think about like a beauty product, like they can give you like a thing of moisturizer that's like this big. Yeah. Or here. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's. Or why can't I have a container that's refillable in the middle?

52:09 Why can I buy one pair unpackaged and it's strangely so much more per kilogram, if not by unit, than four of them put together. And they're like nearly always ripe. And I'm like, I'm not gonna be able to eat four pairs in one day. No, yeah, that's the thing, right? It's there's so many, there's so much waste. And I think it's also, I mean, this is a good exercise too. We'll end the show here, but it's asking yourself a lot of the questions, like, do I need this, you know, when you go to the grocery store or when you go into a Starbucks, it's like, this isn't going to get recycled. Like, do I really need this in this cup? Or can I bring my own? Or can I get if I'm staying, maybe I can just sit here and lounge around and asking yourself those questions and then using that as your consumer, you have the power.

52:59 And if enough people ask themselves the questions and start to look at the way we live, really, just the way we behave on a regular basis, we can start to look at these changes and just be like, oh, actually, yeah, I don't need to buy a whole bag of broccoli because I'm not going to eat the entire bag of broccoli. It's going to go bad. So maybe if I just buy like the broccoli, yeah, maybe if I just buy a broccoli, like loose, chop it up and I'll have it all in like that day. I think it's just yeah, I think it's sometimes we think convenience is convenience, but it's not convenient. You know what I mean? And I think that is the I think that is the myth about single use. Yeah, I think it is so convenient. It's not this with coffee. Yeah. Canadians love love coffee. Yeah. That paper cup is not a paper cup. That's not a material.

53:43 It's lined with a plastic liner. That's what prevents that cop from being recycled. If you look to Ontario, the largest province, when you throw it into the bin, either recycling or garbage, it's still going to the same place. That's not going to work. It's not recyclable. And the more we're learning about, like, it's such a thin layer of plastic that when you add hot beverages into it, a lot of research has been linking like hot beverages and those linings to how people are ingesting micro plastics because that hot, liquid is interacting with this thin piece of plastic and it's kind of swirling around. Yeah. I mean, this thing, the the growing body of evidence on human health impacts and plastics and plastic chemicals, it's growing every single day. Yeah.

54:31 I'm not a doctor. I'm not a medical researcher. I'm not a human health expert, but it has opened my eyes to certain habits. I personally, I do not take a hot drink in a single use to go cup. Yeah. Yeah. Hot drink. It'll only ever be in a reusable. Yeah. Use metal. Yeah. Yeah. Or I'll pick the cold option. Yeah. And he's ready to go meals that tell you to heat them up in the middle. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was actually going to sign up for them. And I was actually going to sign up for because a friend of mine showed me and I'm like, but what's what's it being heated in? And like, oh, that's plastic. I'm like, yeah, no, I'm out. Like, there's no way that's good for me. There's no way. Nothing's like there's no smoking gun of no research that's out there right now. Right.

55:18 Yeah. I mean, it's just it's, it's, it's contentious is like a light word for what's going on in the research community for it, but for sure. It's a lot of evidence. It's piling up. And personally, that's those are little changes that I make. I love it. I love it. Little changes lead to big changes. And no, we appreciate Anthony coming on. Kind of giving us the low down. We congratulate you in Oceana on the work that you've done as well as every other organization that's taken part to make sure that this law stays as a law. It's the regulation stays as a regulation and hopefully, and I believe that's what we've discussed in the past. There will be more regulations that come out that are based on the SIPA law and the SIPA designation. And we appreciate all the work that you've done to not only educate us here, but everybody else, you know, on your LinkedIn, on all like the way Oceana works too.

56:10 You guys have done just a fantastic job in educating all of us. So we appreciate you coming on and sharing that with us. Thank you so much. And I think for anyone listening, if they want to go to Oceana dot CA, you can learn about our plastic campaigns there. We work both federally and with other levels of government with cities. We're currently pushing Toronto and Vancouver to bring in reuse systems to their venues and their fan festivals for the FIFA World Cup 20. Right around the corner. I know, but it's such a good opportunity to create jobs in the circular economy. We just saw the whole had reused with Pepsi at the stadium. Why can't Toronto and Vancouver do this? So, catch up and I mean, I don't encourage everyone to go to my LinkedIn, but if you want to get more information.

56:59 Absolutely. Hey, you provide a service and we love it. So I'm going to put it in there. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Thank you, Anthony, for joining us on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast was great to have you on it once again, talking about plastics. And I just think if you want to follow Anthony, you can go and just look at the show notes. We'll have his LinkedIn there. He's got some great posts on just how people are dealing with plastics in general, how event venues and a lot of other different restaurants and stuff like that calling out big, big plastic and companies for using plastics that they shouldn't be. It's really, it's really interesting to see how government is taking the lead on this, especially here in Canada and how we can start to see this maybe lead other countries or other states or provinces or any other territories to do more in terms of plastic pollution reduction.

57:53 It doesn't matter if you want to pay if you want to if you want to pay extra for a plastic bag, you can't do that anymore. Now it's all about or you shouldn't be able to do that anymore. Now it's all about the reusable bags and there's still ways to manage the reasonable bag properly. Don't always buy a reasonable bag every time you're at the grocery store. Reuse your reusable bag when you bring it to the grocery store. Keep it in your trunk, keep it in your bicycle, like a basket or wherever you keep it. It's always with you so that you can even have some that are small enough that you can put in a purse or in your pocket or something like that. There's a lot of ingenuity around that. They have plastic straws, they have bamboo straws, or not plastic straws, they have paper straws that are reinforced. You can even have a metal straw that you can keep on you at all times if you really want to do that.

58:34 You can even have a metal straw that you can keep on you at all times if you really want to have a straw or you just don't go with straw at all. There's all these different ways to handle single use plastics and it's up to you if you want to be healthier and not not say hey you know what I've had toxic plastic doesn't matter the plastic all plastic is toxic. There's certain items in Canada that are banned but we should be staying away from plastic as much as possible because it's not good for us. And so that's your that's your incentive not just to protect the ocean but to protect yourself your own health knowing that plastic is bad. So having you know I still see plastic water bottles being ingested that all that plastic is not good. It's not good for you every time you twist off a cap that the brakes of that cap goes into the bottle right and the little material goes into the bottle that microplastic goes into your body and you get affected in the long run and it's just made of some nasty stuff so you don't want to have any of that.

59:23 I'm not a health practitioner but I know enough to stay away as much as possible from plastic because it's toxic and we now know that it's upheld in Canada as toxic and that's really important. The science is actually the science is based decision making has actually ruled and the courts have have upheld the ruling and I think it's great. So that's it for today's episode. If you love this type of ocean news and you want to hear more all you have to do is just smash that that follow button and you will be able to hear next week's episodes and every to every weekday from Monday to Friday 5 a.m. eastern is posted enjoy the episode. I want to thank you for joining me on today's episode of the how to protect the ocean podcast. I'm your host Andrew Llewe have a great day. We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.