Radical Inclusivity in Love: Danielle Selber on Redefining Modern Matchmaking

0:00 Your host is Arlene Washburn, an award-winning ethical matchmaking advocate, mentor, and industry innovator. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the Matchmaker Mentor Podcast, where we support aspiring and established matchmakers and the clients who rely on them with real conversations about business, psychology, lifestyle, and love. And today's episode is a little special one because we're diving into cultural competency, values driven matchmaking, and how collaboration can make our entire industry stronger. And I'm so excited to introduce my guest, Danielle Selber.

0:42 Danielle is a matchmaker with nearly a decade of experience serving Jewish and the LGBTQIA communities. She leads Tribe 12's groundbreaking community matchmaking program in Philadelphia and heads the Jewish division of Little Gay Book, The Country's premier queer dating firm. She helped over 60 couples find lasting connection and guided hundreds more with her signature blend of radical inclusion and non judgment. Her guiding philosophy is that everything is matchmaking, from strengthening social fabric to combating the loneliness epidemic. You know, that's my favorite subject. So Danielle, welcome to the show. Hi, Arlene, Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. You are someone that from day one that I met, I've always admired you.

1:36 You may not know that because it's not always obvious, but yeah, you are just, you just have this amazing way about you. And yeah, I'm super excited to talk about the type of matchmaking that you do, which is not the the conventional thing that the professional matchmakers are doing today with matchmaking companies. Yours is a little bit different. So first I want to know what inspired you to go into matchmaking? Sure. And I'm so honored for you to say that you admire because I admire you so much and follow all your work. And wow, So what actually inspired me? I actually came to matchmaking through the academia round. So I got my master's in Jewish studies, and the subject of my thesis was Jewish matchmaking, the history of it, and also modern application. And so through that work, I discovered that there was sort of a gap in the Jewish community where religious communities, people who are more traditionally practicing, were very well served by matchmakers and that that sort of system. But in more secular or just culturally Jewish communities, that wasn't the case.

2:38 And so I kind of had a theory. What if we took the things that have worked for millennia and Jewish matchmaking and applied them to cultural and secular Jews and it worked basically. That is so amazing. I didn't even know that about you. And you know, and everybody should know, you are invited to be on the faculty of the Love Pro Mastermind Academy. And I just instinctually had this desire to invite you in. And lo and behold, I didn't even know that you had this background, which is amazing. You didn't know I was. I was a nerd, basically. So am I. I'm a secret nerd. But you know, I, it's, it's weird. It's how like instincts really kick in and they just kind of like I, I follow my instincts all the time.

3:22 And you know, the minute I met you, I was like, I need to work with her. I just like, I'm looking for that opportunity. So here it is. So this, this new concept of Tribe 12 evolved into a full matchmaking program. Tell me how that came to be and a little bit more about it, because I remember I had a student at the Love Pro who actually wanted to create that in Chicago. I know, I know, you know, Talia as well. Like anytime people hear about it, they're like, oh, I want to do that. So let the audience know a little bit about what you're doing with matchmaking, which is a little different. So I actually work under the umbrella of an established nonprofit in Philadelphia's Jewish community.

4:06 So it's called Tribe 12. And when I started working there, I said, you know what? If I take this theory that I've got that our community could be served by matchmaking as it's worked for many years for other Jewish people, and sort of applied it to the social and networking work that the organization was already doing. So in Philadelphia, I work specifically with Jewish 20s and 30s who live in this area. And IT, it's matchmaking that is about matchmaking for sure. We do set up people one-on-one, but it's also about events and bringing people together and strengthening social fabric and friendships and having people to go to those events with. So it's a lot more than just like, you know, you and you get together. It's, it's more holistic than that and thinking about the whole person and all of their needs and really creating a sense of belonging and making the feeling of being single suckless and just feel better overall and making that whole experience of searching for your person a better experience. Neil, what I what I love about that and now that we're talking about because I knew you were doing this, but I didn't know in detail.

5:14 And I think what's really lacking in our society, not just in the US worldwide, is this lack of community and that people don't have places where they can congregate and get together and meet and actually end up in, you know, couples and marriages. Because right now there is this massive loneliness epidemic and men are not approaching women. There's a low birth rate, low marriage rate. And I think that what you're doing could be spread all over the world and in different types of communities, different niches or whatever and really create that unity that is so lacking right now in our society. What are you?

5:56 What are your thoughts? Yeah, I couldn't agree more, honestly. And what's cool is that when I started doing this work, which was about a decade ago, I did feel like I was like one of the only people sort of thinking this way. And over the years, I've gotten the opportunity to meet more people who are doing similar, like community matchmaking work. So there are amazing matchmakers. So I feel like, you know as well, like Rachel Joy Barrel, who has like a hyper local matchmaking work going on in Columbus, OH, Angelica Morris, who works with digital nomads. So people who are like linked by a shared sort of career philosophy or identity, but aren't necessarily in the same place. There's like Armenian matchmakers, Catholic matchmakers, people who basically take one community and say, like, I'm going to hold this community and think about what works best for them and all of their needs, matchmaking included, and then make that like the the thing that helps them. Like a rising tide lifts all ships. Absolutely.

6:50 You've helped 60 couples and probably more because they don't always come forward and let matchmakers know. But looking back, is there like a common thread in those like success stories? Yeah, I would say a common quality that seems to help people succeed with batchmaking, especially in this kind of community matchmaking work, is just optimists. So people who are naturally positive and are yes, people, they're like, they're just willing to come to like the weirdest thing that I put on the calendar, right? Or they're willing to go on like a date with their, you know, best friends, moms, cousins, brother or whatever. Like there's just people who are, are looking for reasons to say yes in the match speaking process as opposed to looking for reasons to put up a roadblock. And I have seen those people find their person in the most roundabout, bizarre ways that, you know, none of us could have predicted or even worked towards. But it works that way when you say yes and when you just have like an optimistic approach.

7:51 When you, I guess when you like dating too, when you're enjoying the process and not just feeling like you're slogging through it to get to a result. Do you find that too? I'm so curious about your work. I mean, and you know, coming from a place of yes is so true because that's how I ended up with my husband because I had so many reasons to say no geographically undesirable. We were over an hour away from each other. He didn't have a photo on his profile because we met through an online platform. Another reason he told me his whole life story, the first conversation, it was almost like too much too soon. Another reason, you know, he had been married before multiple times. Another like there were so many reasons. And fortunately I had this little bird in my head who's my daughter?

8:38 She's like next level. This kid could be anybody's therapist. And so when I said so, well, he's been married multiple times. She's like, well, at least he's the marrying kind. And I'm like, he just told me his whole life story. And one conversation says, well, at least he's honest. You know, like, everything that I wanted to say no to, she was like, mom, get over yourself. I ended up going on a date with him. And, you know, it's almost 15 years now that we're together. But it's like, you have to come from a place of yes. And I think that's really what, when matchmakers tell their clients, you know, open heart, open mind, that's really what we're talking about because that's when you do have success. And I, I, if nobody takes anything away from this conversation, this is the mic drop moment of coming from a place of yes, like this.

9:26 I think that is amazing. Yes. And I love that story because, you know, what it also exemplifies is that you were in that moment, maybe not coming from like a yes approach or that wasn't your instinct at that time, but you had someone in your corner, in this case your daughter. But sometimes it's the matchmaker saying, maybe you should look at this a different way, Maybe you should judge more favorably, and suddenly you're in a situation where 15 years later, you're so happy. Absolutely. OK, so we're going to shift gears a little bit and I'm, you know, we talk about the Jewish community and obviously Jews are not a monolith. Can you share some stories where cultural competency made a difference in matchmaking? Definitely, yeah.

10:11 And the cultural competency piece plays in the Jewish community specifically in some obvious ways and some less obvious ways. So we're talking about basically like what is unique to this community and what are the unique considerations when matchmaking. So some of the more obvious ones are things like observance level, right? Like how strongly or strictly do people observe Jewish customs like the Sabbath or kosher, which is a way of eating dietary restrictions, or how much are the holidays a part of their cadence of their year? Right. But it's also a little more subtle sometimes where things like community involvement and how much they care about Judaism and their Jewish identity also comes up. So I recently made a match that turned out to not be a great match.

10:56 And it was basically because one of the people was strongly rooted in their Jewish community. That was a part of their weekly life. They were accustomed to going to a Shabbat dinner, even if that wasn't, they weren't strictly observing. They were accustomed to having mostly Jewish friends with the other person. They were really sort of removed from their Judaism. It was something they had grown up with and even felt strongly growing up. But it wasn't part of their day-to-day life. And for this particular couple, that won't, this won't always be a problem. But for them, they just weren't able to find that synchronicity between the way that they view Judaism as part of their life. So some of that is unpredictable as a matchmaker, as you know, you can just, you just see when they get together if it works. But in this case, that was enough that they were too far apart.

11:43 It's, it's interesting and that, I mean, that's across the board with any religion and any kind of, you know, belief. I also find that as of 2016, politics became a very big thing in all communities. And again, they're Jewish people who are conservative, some who are liberal. I I've had clients, you know, either way. And what advice would you give matchmakers who feel like nervous about addressing like sensitive topics like what's going on right now in politics in Israel and or the politics in the US? Because that does have a big weight on matchmaking today. It didn't used to be, you know, before 2016, we, you know, people had different politics.

12:36 It didn't matter as much. But now it's a huge thing. I mean, and I know certain matchmakers, and I have a Jewish matchmaker who, you know, feels very strongly about certain things that are going on right now in Israel and will not work with clients who are not on the same page as her. I mean, that's a whole different thing. But I'm saying even putting people together. What are your thoughts about that? Yeah, yeah. I have a really specific memory in 2016 of I was just starting in matchmaking. And I remember that the biggest deal breaker people would tell me was smoking at the time. And then as soon as that election happened, the biggest deal breaker I heard switched and it was politics. And from then on, like you said, it's been like that. And because of recent events in Israel in the past two years, it's absolutely become alive with matchmaking. And I think what it comes down to is understanding two things. It's understanding how people feel about politics, Israel American included, but also how much that plays into their choices for dating, right?

13:37 So there are people who can feel extremely strongly in One Direction or another and have these like deep rooted philosophies and follow the news very carefully or have family in Israel. But when you actually ask them directly if that affects their dating choices, they might say no. So it's sometimes also not about making about not making assumptions that people are using that as one of their deal Breakers or criteria for dating, I've noticed. Yeah, I mean, and of course, you know, usually in this world of matchmaking, I find that people have a much longer list of deal Breakers than they do of their wants and needs. It's like, you know, and so there people are always looking for another thing to to rule people out. And I'm all about like, let's look for a reason to rule people in.

14:27 So what unique challenges do you find with working in the LGBTQIA community now that you're now working in that area as well? And I kind of, and I also want to ask a little bit about your journey into, into going into this area and working with Doctor Frankie Bhushan, who I absolutely adore. So what's what's happening in that on that front? And also are they all Jewish as well or is it? Or is it just any LGBTQIA plus individual? Yeah, yeah. So this is some of my more recent work, which is working in partnership with Doctor Frankie Bishan at Little Gay Book to open a Jewish division of their matchmaking agency. So Doctor Frankie is herself Jewish as well. And over the years, she's served tons and tons of Jewish clients, but had never had sort of like a holding place for all of them where we could serve them as just one community, including events and including other ways to to connect them, not just match making, but of course matchmaking too. And so my work with Little Gay Book is exclusively for Jewish LGBTQ folks, all locations and all ages. And so that's different than my work in Philadelphia. And the way this came about is truly from Matchmaker Connections.

15:50 So a mutual friend of yours as well, Arlene, Mikhail Nestetter, had this like dream of what if there was a landing place for Jewish LGBTQ folks and connect to Doctor Frankie and I for a conversation. And I had known her from the conferences and things and had a relationship with her. But we worked together to create this. And it's been really gratifying so far just seeing people absolutely come out of the woodwork and say how grateful they are for this type of space. And you know, we're talking to matchmakers now from a sales perspective. It's been amazing the way that it's generating leads and people who want to now work in matchmaking with a Jewish matchmaker specifically in which that with that cultural competency piece. I know I, I love it because I'm a big proponent of matchmakers going into the industry, really starting with a niche that you understand where you have that competency as, as we've discussed and, and knowing that you actually are probably going to get more clients, unless it's a, a, like a micro niche, that's a different story.

16:53 But like, I just find that everybody wants to be everything to everyone and you, you know, you basically end up not getting the right clients when you do that versus having that, you know, that group that you can serve because you have other people that are, you know, are willing to date and meet with them, etcetera, versus having a database that has everyone and anyone. So I love that you're doing this and, and I also love the fact that it's about inclusivity, which I want to see other communities do this. And when I say communities, I mean other religions like the Christian, you know, Christian folks that are actually in the LGBTQIA community or maybe it's Muslim or whatever.

17:42 Like, I just want to see that kind of inclusivity because people's religion is separate from their sexuality and they shouldn't be shunned or, or thought of as like, go over there, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. And that's that's some feedback that we've heard, which is that people historically have felt like when they're dating, they have to leave one part of themselves at the door, either their Jewish side or their queer side, right? They can't integrate as a whole person into dating. And so I think that's what has made this work really come alive for people and get them excited about being part of it, to be able to just be your whole self. Exactly.

18:23 I love it. I know that you have, you're connected to the LGBTQIA plus community in your own personal life. And I would love if you're open to sharing a little bit about that so people understand who you are. And I love you are like a radical inclusive, you know, radical. You're into radically inclusiveness, which makes a lot of sense because of who you are. And yeah, I mean, I could just go on and on about my thoughts about you, the kind of human being that you are, but tell the audience a little bit about yourself and how you came to connect with this community as well. Yeah, thank you. You're so sweet, Darlene. So this, my story is that I was married for 10 years to a man and at around the 10 year mark, actually on Father's Day, very poetically, he came to me and told me that he is transgender and wanted to transition and and become a woman. And this was about four years ago. And so from that moment on, it became a journey of now I'll say her, her doing that transition and figuring out together what that would look like for our family. We have three children.

19:32 What that might look like for us. We eventually did separate and aren't romantically together anymore. And what it looks like today is that, you know, I Co parent with another woman and our children have two moms and that's what our family looks like. And we've made it work and have a really great Co parenting relationship. And our kids, you know, have two great parents. But it was sort of a crash course in becoming part of the LGBTQ community, right? Because when we go out of the family now, that's how we present as a family with two moms and sort of folding ourselves into that community and what it looked like and especially the Jewish LGBT community has been really interesting. So that's the story on one foot.

20:15 And were you immediately accepting or was or did it take a while for you to embrace the the concept of being a family with two moms and so forth? Yeah, I certainly had an adjustment period just like anybody would. And you know, I'm very grateful to therapists and friends and family for helping me sort of work through that and what it would look like. I will say that almost from moment when I was certainly accepting of the fact that she was transgender and was identifying as a woman, I didn't question that or try to change her mind. But it did take time for that to, you know, adjust for me interpersonally with the life that I had expected and the person that I expected to be with for the rest of my life.

21:03 That was big change. And so there were considerations about our relationship, our parenting, everything at once. But now, you know, we're at almost the five year mark of that now. It's honestly like our normal and our family's normal. And our kids were pretty young at the time as well. So for them, they didn't have a, they don't have a memory, a recollection of having a dad and a mom. They only know life with two moms. Yes, and I met your beautiful family and everybody. You know, this word normal is just like a should we should cross it off the the dictionary because we're just all what whatever it is that we are. You know, normal just doesn't exist in my opinion.

21:45 Yeah, no such thing. Yeah, I mean that that is is just an incredible story and not uncommon. When I was a matchmaker, I had two clients that had gone through similar experiences. And I just think that we're in, in a world now where a people are speaking up and living their truth, which I think is really important because I can't imagine how painful it is not to. And you know, this stuff happens. Humans are humans and they just have to, they should be true to themselves. And I, I'm all for that.

22:27 And fortunately, you know, the kids are doing well and everything else. So I think it's great. And so I really do think that that makes you a very like auspicious person to be in the position that you're in, knowing what you know about Judaism, working with the LGBTQIA community and understanding, you know, now with the, with the group, I, I was under the impression that Frankie's clientele were all women. Is that not the case anymore? It's actually not the case. Historically, it's been mostly women, but in the past, I would say 2 years, the organization has really expanded to include men and really has always included transgender folks. I remember Doctor Frankie actually telling me a story about early and founding Little Gay Book. This was about 20 years ago that it was very controversial to include bisexual people.

23:21 That was like the big controversy at the time. And Doctor Frankie was like, no, we're of course including them. Come on in. We're, you know, you're part of our community. And so today's sort of equivalent to that might be including transgender people in work, right? And Doctor Frankie was also on the forefront of that. So, you know, now I have this really interesting experience where I work with transgender clients and transgender matches for my clients. And so I'm able to understand, not understand, but certainly empathize with their experience and what transition looks like and how it may have affected their life and specifically being Jewish and transitioning too. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. How has the collaboration been with, you know, what's what's working well with Frankie?

24:04 I know a few of the people on her team are amazing, wonderful people. What has that been like? Yeah, that's been exciting for me because, you know, until now I had mostly been working as like a solo shop. I do have some part time matchmakers that I work with in Philly, but this is my first time being on a team of matchmakers and getting to collaborate with them in real time, sharing clients, sharing ideas. Like the most exciting thing is when we can like match someone's client with someone's client on the team. I don't know if you've experienced that, but we really love those moments. And yeah, you know, being part of of a network, there's like a marketing team and a sales team. And so I'm really like learning new aspects of the matchmaking business here in year 10. So I've had a blast.

24:52 I love it and I am all for collaboration and you guys are collaborating outside of your company as well. You're also collaborating with other matchmakers. You mean through little gay books work? Well, you know, I mean collaboration within the matchmakers that are in the company is one thing, but also collaborating with other other companies, are you doing that as well? Yeah, So Little Gate book is a member of the Matchmaker's alliance and has representation at the different conferences that we all enjoy going to and sharing, sharing clients with each other and trying to find matches among each of our networks. Yeah, there's a ton of collaboration going on. And I'm, I'm team, there's no such thing as competition, only collaboration. Like I just believe that the more collaboration, the better in our especially in work like ours, because there's no, there's no shortage of people to work with us, right. So we're not, we're not going to be like Siphon keeping people off from each other.

25:48 We're just going to keep helping each other out. I mean, I am 100% for collaboration from day one that I got into this industry, which is now almost 15 years. And I honestly didn't even understand why some matchmakers wouldn't. I had had an experience as a real estate agent and I looked at it as like, you have a buyer, have a seller, like let's help these people get together. You know, that's kind of my, my mindset. And when I first came on board, I saw that some matchmakers were like siloed and they had these blinders on and they don't even look even till this day on LinkedIn. I'll, I'll try to connect with other matchmakers and they won't accept my connection. And I'm like, what is, why wouldn't you accept my connection?

26:30 I can actually provide matches for your clients. I can help you with your business for free. I'm not, not even, you know what I mean? Like because we, we run a database of daters that join the worldwide referral network. And just today I reached out to a matchmaker. I saw that she was looking for a match for her client. I'm like, I think I have the match for you. And it's weird, like on LinkedIn and all these places where matchmakers refuse to connect, especially, I shouldn't say especially, but sometimes the old school matchmakers who have been around for a long time, they refuse. And that does not make sense. You're hurting your business, you're hurting your clients. Collaboration is key to success and being able to get to the goal faster in my opinion. Yeah, I agree with you.

27:17 And I wonder if it's just sort of like old thinking or people, people who have done things in a certain way. But I do think that matchmaking today is just a giant soup of collaboration. Like most people want to collaborate and most people want to work together and find ways to work together. I'm in like a lovely WhatsApp of about, like, 18 matchmakers who are, you know, community matchmakers, which is this model we're speaking about, of being like, embedded in a community and having a more holistic approach, you know, and just bouncing ideas off each other, like, hey, how do you do this one thing at an event? Or how do you make people do this? Or what do you do when this person doesn't want that? You know, just, like, using it as a brain trust even.

27:57 And even if that doesn't translate directly to, like, matches or referral fees, it does translate to better service for clients and also a better experience as a matchmaker because you feel like you're being successful. So yeah, I really can't imagine matchmaking without collaboration. I wouldn't be able to do it. Well, and when I first got into it also, it's like you kind of feel like like you're on an island because, you know, now I run mastermind groups for matchmakers, but I used to join mastermind groups and they were all different types of businesses. And it was very difficult to for people to understand what I did or to even take me serious for that matter. I mean, once they got to talk to me, they would realize like I'm a serious businesswoman. But you know, initially you tell people you're a matchmaker and you know, aside from knowing Fiddler on the Roof, they they're like, they're looking at you like what, what are you talking about? And I'm like, this is serious business, OK? There's nothing more serious in life than the partner that you choose.

28:52 I don't care how much money you have or how many things you own or what you've accomplished. That partnership is so critical to your life and to your children and everything in between that for people to act like it's not a serious thing, it just boggles my mind. I've heard people say that who you choose your spouse is or the person you're with is the best, the most important business decision you'll make because it affects also like how your life will go and your money and your everything. Absolutely. I was just on LinkedIn, which is my home away from home on social media. I don't really like. I don't like all the other platforms. For some reason. LinkedIn is my favorite and I saw a friend who he does a lot of Gottman type content, which I love. Gottman, who, by the way, was born in the Dominican Republic. I don't know if you know that he's Jewish, but there's this huge community in the Dominican Republic, lot of history. Oh, yeah, yeah.

29:49 We I could, I could teach you a thing or two, you knowledge. Yeah, tell me. Well, even because I told you when I did my ancestry.com, I came, it came back Oscar Nazi for me because anybody in the Caribbean is hypothetically European and African for the most part at least, you know, in certain countries. And there was a huge Jewish community. But even going back to when Christopher Columbus landed in La Espanola, which is the Dr. and Haiti, that island, a lot of the men that came on that boat with them were Jewish. And there's been a huge Jewish community community there for many, many years.

30:32 And at one point there before Israel, people, they were looking for a place to go to and countries would not open their doors to the Jews, except for the Dominican Republic. That was the entire country that did so. So he I was talking about this gentleman. He, he does a lot of Gottman content, which I love Gottman. And I was listening to him talking about men don't want to, you know, like about how they feel about marriage versus how women feel about marriage. And it inspired me to write an article because I write a weekly article for LinkedIn for daters, because I love to stay connected with them about the benefits of men getting married. The laundry list goes on and on.

31:17 They they're healthier, wealthier, happier by being married. And, and actually the same cannot be. And we're talking heteronormative, of course, we're talking about men and women. Women are don't have the exact same benefits as the men do, which is very interesting. But I want to talk to you a little about this because this is something that just is top of mind for me in our society today. Is what's happening to the men, the challenges that men are dealing with in dating. I'm sure this community situation makes it easier, I would think, for men to be able to connect with women because I don't know what's happening in our society today. Yeah. Yeah, what's interesting is, and I'll speak about my work in Philly for a moment because that's the, you know, heteronormative work.

32:04 The people who come to us for matchmaking are typically the men who come to us are typically ready. Like, in other words, you don't come to a matchmaker and sign up for, you know, a one hour discovery conversation without having some sense in your mind that you are actually ready to find something serious. You know, and, and that there's still a huge range of what that actually looks like in terms of readiness. But I will say that there's a little bit of like a pre qualified buyer thing going on in our community when someone has opted into matchmaking. So I think the thing would be true if somebody who signs on as like a client. So with my model, everyone essentially looks like a database member because we're so events based and we're not doing guaranteed matches for anybody.

32:51 But the same would be true for a man that comes to a matchmaker to work as a client, right? They're saying this is a priority for me. This is something I'm willing to invest in and I'm actually willing to think about commitment and think about my own hang ups and work through them with a professional. So yeah. That's amazing. That's amazing to hear. And I mean, I know there's a lot of pressure in certain communities from parents like you need to get ready. I know I was talking to Jazbina, who works with Indian and SE Asians, and she was saying like, you know, our parents are like, don't date, don't date because you have to get an education and then now get married, like, and no dating experience.

33:37 And all of a sudden it's like you go from focus on your education, become a lawyer, doctor, whatever it is, and then boom, now go get married. And, you know, and that's traditionally a culture that has also done a lot of arranged marriages. And I believe in the Jewish community as well. Yeah, so, so, yeah. So it's interesting because I know there's that pressure coming from the parents of like, what are you doing? What are you waiting for? You got to get married. Yeah, so, and this is where that cultural competency piece comes in, right? There are certain communities, Indian and Jewish being 2 great examples, where the role of family really matters, right? Whereas sometimes people are dating in a silo and their their family's considerations that their family will meet their person at the altar, like that's the first time they're going to meet on the wedding day.

34:23 It's not typically like that in in Jewish communities. And what's interesting is that this may just be a, a religious community thing because I was listening to matchmaker Madigan. I don't know if you know her personally, but she has a podcast called Love that. It's the Catholic dating podcast. And she was speaking about this exact thing, about how strongly family plays into considerations regarding matchmaking, where when you're a matchmaker and you're in a religious community, you're probably going to be talking to the parents of the person or the sister of the person, you know, in the extended circle. Whereas in other communities, that's barely a consideration. It's not even relevant. Yeah. But you know what, I, I love it because I think that that taps into core values because, you know, you, you came from a background, you have parents that raise you in a particular way and, you know, even socio economic backgrounds, there's a lot of alignment when families are, are connected in that way.

35:24 And I think a lot of the matching back in the day was based on that. And there's a lot of data that shows that that's actually more effective than just random, you know, putting people together. When I hear people say that, when I ask them, you know, how important is it for you to date Jewish, right? Is it a deal breaker? Is it a preference? Is it neutral? People have all different answers. But sometimes when they say it's either a preference or a deal breaker, they simply just say it's because it's easier. They like having that shared language, the shared references to holidays. Your humor might match, right? But I also think that baked into that can be assumptions about what it looks like to be Jewish or to grow up Jewish, right?

36:08 Because some people have a picture in their head of like what a Jewish person looks like. And sometimes I like to sort of, I don't know, subvert these those pictures by asking, for example, the way that I talk about race in the Jewish community, I'll say, you know, even within the Jewish community, there's so many different races and ethnicities represented, Black Jews and Asian Jews and Indian Jews. Who were you open to meeting? And sometimes I can tell in people's faces that it's the first time they've been. Yeah, exactly. They're like, and they, they realize that by talking to a Jewish matchmaker, they're not just thinking about, you know, a white presenting Ashkenazi Jew. They actually have to be thinking about other Jewish people too. So it can be like a little bit of a educational moment. I love that.

36:49 And yeah, my daughter's grandparents were all Jewish. And so growing up, we, we, I was, you know, I was never really a religious person. I mean, I went to Catholic school. My mom was going to be a nun before she got married, but I have a lot of religious trauma and so I was not religious. But what I did raising my daughter was to read a book about every holiday. So when we, when there was a holiday, we, I would go by she's this, this kid. I mean, well, she's a grown woman now, almost 40, but she devours books because from day one I always read to her. And we would read about the holiday, not just hours, but any holiday.

37:33 We, you know, did celebrate some Jewish holidays because our, you know, my in laws were Jewish, but also she understood why and what was being celebrated because I often find that, you know, yes, holidays are about community and, you know, they're centered around food and being around family. But understanding why, you know, this is a holiday and that was really important for me to teach her. And so that's what we did. Yeah. It's it's it's a very interesting thing. And of course, you know, I was, I grew up in a Jewish community also. And when I was in New York, so all my best friends were Jewish because there was a synagogue that people can walk to. So I was always surrounded by the Jewish community, even though I was going to Catholic school, my best friend was going to, you know, learning about Hebrew and what not, right? And so isn't that interesting, like you had this adjacency to Judaism for pretty much your whole life, like in every stage of your life, which, you know, when it comes to dating, like, isn't it interesting that that could make you a good match for a Jewish person, right?

38:41 Like, like somebody might not think that way, but realizing that there are Jewish people who didn't even grow up with as much Judaism as you just described, they might not be as good of a fit. So it's interesting to, like, take away the assumptions about what like growing up or being Jewish might look like. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, I just, I almost wish and I understand all the things that people have in common and so forth, but I almost wish that people would just treat people for who they are, forget what they look like, forget what they, you know, assumptions you made. Like when I when I went to China, I mean, I'm thinking I'm going to a communist country, you know, like you have ideas in your head. I show up over there, I'm in Shanghai. I'm like, Oh my God, this is like the most beautiful hotel I've ever been to in my life. And this is coming from someone who grew up, you know, in the pharma industry when we were at Four Seasons and Ritz Carlton's and all these fancy places.

39:33 And I'm in China thinking, wow, this is incredible, you know, And so I just wish people would just take all that stuff out of your head and just show up, you know, come from a place of yes and just be open to the possibilities and you might learn something that you you didn't know. Yeah, yeah, this, this comes up at a specific point of matchmaking conversations too, which is when I ask people for their personal definition of who is Jewish. And it's dicey, right? Like people have all different definitions. So in the Jewish community, some people believe that only if someone's mother is Jewish, does that make them Jewish. And then there's another question about if someone can. Are they Jewish or are least are they Jewish enough for you to date person I'm talking to?

40:23 And so it's really things that people wrestle with and try to figure out. Yeah. And that's when this comes up. And I'm thinking of like a personal narrative too, which is that at some point I dated a Mormon missionary who had become Jewish. Later in life he had discovered that his mother was Jewish and he sort of found it. So us trying to figure out how to form a relationship around to complete completely different upbringing than backgrounds, but with a current shared religion was like its own giant mess and thing that we really had to navigate because we didn't have anything to cling to about a shared background or anything like that. So I just thought of that. Yeah, it's, well, you know, it's good and bad because like, I look at my relationship with my husband, we came from totally different backgrounds.

41:14 He grew up in the country where we live now. It's very rural. You know, he grew up milking cows and he's a white man. He's like the whitest guy on the planet. He's so white. He's see through. And I'm a person of color from the city, from I'm originally from New York, then grew, you know, in the suburbs of New Jersey. And somehow we connected. We we have so many of the same core values that everything else just became more of, of interesting. Like, you know, it was just interesting. Like, let me learn more about his world and he wanted to learn about my world. And we almost came at it with a, a lot of respect too, because when you think you come from the same thing and you're very similar, you make a lot of assumptions and you sort of take things for granted versus when you feel like you, you don't know, it's not that you're tippy toeing, but you're trying to like navigate it and learn it. And you have a curiosity, which I think is one of the most beautiful things that a person can have is curiosity. And so I, I like that when you have people coming from different backgrounds.

42:26 Yeah, exactly. I think curiosity is the word to highlight there because if you come at dating with curiosity and you look at that other person and you assume that they're special and there's great things to discover about them, and you just pull away every assumption that you might have had. Even if you think you're similar or you think you're so different, you're always going to find surprises. I mean, it kind of comes back to what we spoke about in the beginning about like an optimistic or a positive viewpoint, right? Look at that person, assume that that great things are there, and then find them. Absolutely. I love the love goggles, so to speak. It's like when you're dating, just have those love, love goggles. Don't be a fool.

43:08 I'm not saying go, you know, be OK with everything or let people run rough shots over you or you know, disrespect your boundaries and things like that. But go into it with a genuine desire. I don't know, maybe that's why I'm a matchmaker, because and my my daughter would make fun of me. She actually worked with me for a little bit. She she would say, mom, you fall in love with everybody as far as the clients go, because I would see something beautiful in everyone. And my daughter would be like, yeah, I mean, that person's not as attractive as you're making them out to me. I'm like, really? And she's. Like, you know, because. I don't know what it is with like, and some mass speakers are very different. Some are very jaded and they're like not pretty enough or not thin enough or whatever. I, I'm not like that.

43:53 I, I see the beauty in people. I'm like, what are you talking about? They're gorgeous. I'm so with you. Yeah, I'm like famously non judgmental and I just think everyone is so gorgeous and great and it can get me in trouble. But I think it's I do think it's better on the whole to be that way, right? We see the beauty in people and then there are special parts. And I think you also approach matchmaking differently. If you feel that you can help someone and that you see the beauty in them, you, you are open to the possibilities. And I believe that you need to have your mind, your heart, and your hands congruent. In other words, if you think something and then you feel it with your heart, then you can go out and do it and accomplish it.

44:36 And you end up putting someone in a relationship that ends up working out because it started with that mindset of like, yeah, this is a beautiful person. I can help them. If you go into it. I don't know this and that. Don't even take the client. I mean, let's get into the ethics and the trust in this industry, right? Like, do not take a client if you really are already thinking that you can't help them because you're not going to help them. Yeah, exactly. And that's where like a referral might be great, right, Because the first match is with the matchmaker, right? Another matchmaker might see everything great in them and be able to match them easily. But you have to like them. And that's something that works well for me with with my model in Philly. I don't do any guaranteed matches.

45:18 So when somebody's coming through and becoming part of our community, they are invited to events and invited to different opportunities and they have the eligibility to be matched, but they don't necessarily get matched. So if I do, on the rare occasions that I do meet someone that for whatever reason I don't feel comfortable matching, it's OK and there's nothing that I have to do to, you know, enable that. I really love this concept and I'm curious if it's possible for you, Like are you helping others create this concept in other places as well? Because I think for some people, let's just say someone's not traditionally beautiful or whatever, but I think that showing up and having the frequency, having exposure and interacting with people. If you have a great personality.

46:07 Because that I know I, I have found a lot of men attractive that weren't beautiful or traditionally good looking, but their personality was like amazing and they were smart. And to me, I'm a sapiosexual anyway. If you could be the most beautiful person in the world. If you're dumb, no offense. I don't mean to be mean about it, but it's like if I don't find, if there's no intellectual curiosity and you have no desire to keep learning or whatever, it's very difficult for me to be in connection with someone like that. Doesn't even have to be the same kind of stuff that I'm into. At least I, you know, like my husband and I are like into totally different things. But he's so smart and he can teach me stuff.

46:47 Like he watches all this history stuff that I now find find interesting that I'm older. When I was younger I did not. And now he talks about all this stuff, and it's not exactly the thing that I'm into, but he makes it interesting for me and I learned from him. And so I love this concept of the community thing because people being able to go over and over again to a place where they meet and run into the same people, it opens up so much possibility. Are you able to help others create this? Yeah, I have. I'm very proud to have done that a few times. So there's a matchmaker in DC, her name is Miriam Leviton. And she, I essentially trained her to open a really similar model is what we have in Philadelphia, but in DC and it's going really well and I'm really proud of her. And then I've done some other trainings for other folks. But the other example of someone who truly like used the exact same model pretty much, you know, with their own spin, is actually a matchmaker in Sydney, Australia. So in the Jewish community of Sydney, Australia, there's a organization similar to Tribe 12 called Project NextGen. And Mandy Dadia there opened up a similar branch. So they're not like affiliated, they're not under my umbrella, but I trained them in exactly this model that I built. So I'm very happy and thrilled.

48:06 And in fact, I hope it's OK that I share this, that Mandy sent me an e-mail recently telling me that they had their first engagement. So it was like a brand new fresh community with great successes already. That is so wonderful. And we didn't talk much about numbers, but I would assume that this is relatively inexpensive compared to what matchmakers charge for them to become members. I would, I would think right. Yeah, exactly. So this is under the umbrella of a nonprofit organization, which means it's donor supported. So that means that there's donors that are interested enough in this work and in people finding Jewish partners that they support it. And what's really important about that though is that when someone needs more than what we can offer, right, which is like a more, a less, much less hands on service than a traditional matchmaker, that's when we refer out to our matchmaker friends. So I love to have my network of matchmakers. When someone says I need more hands on help, I want guaranteed match, I want someone to search on my behalf, That's when I can tell them, hey, I've got so many matchmakers for you that can do that.

49:06 I'm not the one to do that in Philadelphia, but it's a little gay book I do work with. Client, I love that. I think I think it's fabulous. I am just like I can keep talking to you forever. Is there anything you want to share with the community about the work that you're doing or anything that we didn't cover that anybody should know about you aside from knowing that you're amazing? Sorry, I had a little Internet issue for a moment, but I think we're back. Yeah, I guess I'll just say that, yeah, it's really gratifying to do work with both the Jewish and Jewish queer communities.

49:50 And I'm always open to conversations about what collections might look like with Matchmakers and beyond, so I'll end with that. Danielle, thank you so much for this powerful conversation. You've given us a master class on cultural competency, collaboration, and leading with values. And for those who want to learn more about Danielle work, check out Tribe, tribe12.org and Little Gay book dot com and connect with her on LinkedIn. She's on there too. That's my home away from home. And of course, for anyone who's interested in becoming a matchmaker or maybe you even want to start a similar group, reach out to us. I'm happy to connect you with Danielle. Or if you want to become a matchmaker, go to lovepromastermind.

50:36 Com Don't forget to subscribe on Apple Spotify. Share the episode with another matchmaker industry pro who would benefit from hearing this. And until next time, remember, collaboration is where the magic really begins. Have you ever felt called to help others find love? You might have the heart for matchmaking, but without the right training, turning that passion into a thriving business can feel impossible. Most matchmaking courses give you outdated theories and a certificate, but no real world strategy to build a successful business. That's where Love Pro Mastermind Academy is different. Our Live Done with You training goes beyond theory, helping you develop matchmaking expertise, implement sales and marketing strategies, and master the art of client success.

51:27 With expert LED instruction, accountability, and a community of like minded professionals, you'll learn how to identify your niche, attract high quality clients, create a seamless matchmaking process, grow a sustainable, profitable business. With over a decade of experience. We don't just train matchmakers, we create leaders in the industry. Are you ready to become an LPMA Certified Matchmaker and build a business that changes lives? Apply today at lovepromastermind.com. Thank you for tuning in to the Matchmaker Mentor Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with fellow matchmakers and friends. For more resources, training, and inspiration, visit lovepromastermind.com and follow us on social media. Remember, matchmaking isn't just a career, it's a calling. Let's keep building connections, changing lives, and growing together.