EP8. Why Matchmakers Struggle to Scale: Culture, Hiring and Leadership with Nick Gouvouniotis

0:00 Welcome to the Matchmaker Mentor Podcast with Arlene Washburn, the show where love, industry professionals, coaches and matchmakers come to learn, grow and elevate their craft. Each episode dives deep into the art and business of matchmaking, featuring expert insights, real world strategies, and inspiring conversations designed to help you create meaningful connections and lasting success. Whether you're a seasoned pro or just starting your journey, this is your space to be mentored, motivated, and moved to make a difference in the world of love. Now here's your host, Arlene Washburn. Welcome back to the matchmaker mentor podcast. Today's episode began in a way many of the best conversations do. I came across several of Nikolas Guvineoltis. Did I get it?

0:52 Beautiful. Awesome, I came across and we're going to say Nick for the rest of the episode. Just so I don't botch it up, every time I came across Nick's post on LinkedIn, they were grounded, reflective, and direct about something most entrepreneurs ignore. Behavior predicts outcomes. Numbers tell what happened. Behavior tells you what's coming. I was compelled to reach out because matchmakers need this perspective. We talk about marketing, sales, pricing. We rarely talk about culture.

1:34 We rarely talk about internal maturity. And we rarely talk about what it takes to build something that lasts. Today we're doing all three. Nick has spent over 3 decades building and leading businesses across multiple industries, including 26 years in automotive where he operated organizations employing over 1300 people. He believes people drive outcomes, not systems alone. He is also the author of two books, Through the Lens of Perspective Till Death Do Its Part Dating Your Spouse. He's been married for 27 years. I know he looks really young.

2:19 He's a father of three sons and a grandpa. I'm a grandma. I love it and brings a really rare insight into leadership, growth and commitment. Nick, welcome. I'm excited to have you here. Thank you so much. I, I really appreciate you. I was very excited when you reached out listening to your your podcast and your messages itself. I felt a strong collaboration between US and my message that I had would be very clear and helpful with your audience. Thank you. I, I'm really like, I have so many questions for you. I'm going to try not to make this a super long episode, but it's OK. We all obsess over systems and tools and that's really important. But systems don't execute themselves, people do. And if you don't understand behavior, ownership, and culture, your systems will eventually collapse under pressure.

3:15 And you know this first hand. As someone who has run these huge businesses with so many employees, I've read a lot of the stuff you've put out there that behavior shows what's coming. And what behaviors do you look for first in organizations? That's a that's a great question. The first thing that I look at is 1. It's basically the part of the infrastructure itself is sports with the ownership, the ownership itself and how are involved are they with their team? There are some organizations are are Lord to the point where they have appointed people speaking on behalf of ownership itself. The culture plays a large role, but majority of operators go in the first thing.

4:01 They dive in and they look at, not to get into a large discussion over that, but to break it down. A lot of people will end up looking strictly at financials first. You have to look at the people 1st and see what you have cause a lot of times it's misplaced people in the rural departments which slow down the funnel. So my biggest thing that I look at, I break it down. I look like it's like a color in a book with crayons. This is red, this is blue, this is white to make it super easy. So you could just sit there and see part of the funnel itself, of what's broken, who belongs where and who's executing what amongst the organization, everything.

4:42 And that's the first thing I look at is the people itself, and the numbers follow then afterward. That is such a great point. The last job I had many, many moons ago before I started my own business, I did exactly that. I was always an outside account management salesperson, but I took this last job in my industry, which was in the Pharmaceutical industry. I was a senior executive and I remember inheriting this very elite group of people who were project managers, and I sat with every single one of them and I interviewed them to know and learn about them and what motivated them, what they loved, what did they love about their job and position, What did they hate? Because I do find that people get pigeonholed into the wrong position and then they don't flourish and it hurts the company in the end.

5:40 Agree that's a great way of saying it because that's the the key to a lot of organizations having the people in the in the wrong positions. And when it comes down to the people itself, it's it's also do they want to be in that position? And it's funny because recently I've acquired a company that I can't disclose you at and the owner wanted out and I adopted employees that that came along with it. And that was the first thing I sat down with. Was this something that you want to do? Are you here just to just to collect your paycheck or is this something that you actually wanted to do? But the sit downs with the employees as you said that that is such a big factor of deciding of who belongs where and putting somebody in a place that they're happy because it shows up in their work.

6:26 Absolutely. The matchmakers that we talked to, some of them are solopreneurs, and then some of them are starting to get overwhelmed and they're starting to think that they need to hire, but they don't know when to hire or how to even begin that process. What would you say to those entrepreneurs that are currently solopreneurs? Control freaks. They're afraid to let loose and in many ways created a job for themselves. They left a company, for example. They started a business and instead of working on their their company, they're working in it. What would you say to these people? How do you even begin that process? The way I separate it, you have overhead the back office and front office revenue and operations itself. So what I usually do before I sit there and I, I draw pros and cons or what I want, what I don't need, what things do I want next in my life?

7:26 What things will scale faster if I pass this off? Because at the end of the day of any business, for it to be successful, it has to scale. Adding somebody into your business or putting somebody extra to sit there. It's not more of saying let me take work off my plate alone. It's more of with this move itself, scale me to where I need to be. And once you can realize what positions needed to be able to scale, it's easier. It's a lot easier to make power moves within a company when you have income and you're just not adding to the current income itself that's there. So me personally, I look at is a scalable and if I end up adding this position, where is it going to scale? So is this position going to scale this and is my revenues going to see this?

8:15 At the end of the day, by me doing this, there has to be a extreme pro behind it, especially a lot of us too, we take it out of our own pockets. So if we're making X and we hire somebody and the revenues aren't there, we're substituting some of our income Majority of time depending on what level you are in the amount of business you have. But no matter what you're going in your pocket. The the mortest movement I see for myself that I do is before I go in my pocket to take things off my plate. But am I scaling then by doing this or am I just passing on work that I could have handled myself anyway? Because at one point I've seen a lot of my friends at dinner discussions and they're so used to because you're the one who built it from day one. So it's hard at one point to say, when do I handle all certain things when I can easily do it and I don't have to say, hey, listen, 11:00 at night, I know I could just hop in my office, but I'd ask an employee 11:00 at night sometimes because their office hours or whatever works, it's a little harder. So at the end of the day, if it's scalable and you could put it on paper that it's going to make sense for you that someone's doing this while you scale this. If that's, that's the best way to to know when is the right time and everything like that.

9:29 If it's not scalable and it's just going to cost you at the end, I highly agree that you find more time to dig in harder into your business before you add anybody. I love that. And I'm curious your opinion on this because this is what I teach in our school and that is to create an organization chart. It's aspirational chart for someone who's a solopreneur to just say love. This is ideally the team that I need and this is what each person would do and how would they bring value to the organization? Because what I find is that when people are ready to hire, they meet someone and they really like them and they find a way to work with them and bring them in. Instead of saying I have a position, this is the responsibility for that position and bring them into that if they are fit, as opposed to just hiring out of desperation sometimes or because you like the person and you're going to figure out a way to work with them. And that's where people end up pitching, holed into these positions that they don't belong in. I agree and that goes back to arriving in certain organizations and seeing people belong into the wrong position just because they were at the right place for a night, right time, not the right person at the right time. So it makes a difference out of there. So before executing a plan or going forth, having charts like that, because Isaac said the coloring book theories, it does go a long way and it simplifies it. So to have that pre plan to say

11:01 by hiring X will do this by hiring this, so you're not putting people in positions that one, don't belong. And two, if what's it hurts the longevity of your business as an entrepreneur or so entrepreneur. Our our biggest goal is to keep our business thriving for years to come and having a small plan as you set ahead. And that's the perfect way of saying it because I believe in Schwartz. I and I do too. And then you're not putting people in pockets they don't belong. Completely agree with you with that. And I would imagine that you've been a hiring manager the whole time because I know it's something that you can delegate. But I think that when you're trying to build a business, where is a specific culture that hiring smart is one of the most important things that you can do and making sure that people who come in are fitting into that culture.

11:54 And So what kind of interview questions would you say reveal whether someone is going to protect your standards and culture? And because people get so caught up in just skills and not like the personality and all of that fitting into the culture, what kind of questions would you ask? Depending on the position itself that I am hiring always prepared by having a bunch of discovery questions that are thinking questions on how fast somebody will react to a question. It's more than just describing and reviewing to be quite frank. Majority of people I hired, I glanced at their resume but I I didn't go over at all during it. I had my own questions because my questions itself for the discovery questions and me figuring out does this person fit the pocket elicits something between having an engineer or something that really has to understand the things in particular.

12:45 I always have my question here in front of me, but I write down a bunch of different discovery questions. The technique behind the questions is more of do you understand the position? Do you wonder why they they applied here? I would like to see that if somebody actually took the time to do the research on the company and say, Hey, I like your theory. I love the way you form out this, this and this and this. So they actually put the time in. So they're just not throwing resumes everywhere. And whoever's the first person that says yes, they jump in bed with and you get a bad employee out of it. So the discovery questions of why they came here, their passion of what made them get into this industry. And then from there, how fast I have thinking on their feet, questions that are related to the business of problem solving.

13:26 Just so I can see on my normal day, I will look at my normal day, why am I hiring this person? What problems am I currently having I didn't solve? And I'll put that in a questionnaire for them. So when I'm talking with them, I could sit there and say, OK, wow, so if I had this problem and something happened in particular, I needed a solution. This is their thinking pattern. And I know during interviews people could be a little nervous and stuff. So I'll take that into consideration. But having those in play of what issues that you're currently having? What, what are you trying to solve on your company? And putting those into questions more than asking somebody, where did you work? What happened there? What did you do? I mean, those are great to find out, like a back story and stuff.

14:09 But some people are just great interviewers. So they can sit there and give you a phenomenal interview about their job history because they they're they're treat, they sit there, they read it, they have it, they come in, they've done plenty of interviews. But when you have the the problems of what your company has, that's something they're not prepared because they don't know your issue. They don't know what solutions you need for your company. So that's more thinking on their feet that they can't go back to the resume, you see? Oh yeah. I've worked there for six years. I used to teach you questions. I have 10 questions in my interviews are usually 20 minutes, 20 minutes or less. It goes longer afterwards where I go through my normal stuff. I let them ask the questions and everything, but they're very strategic, the way they're played out to know the person and how quick they think on their feet. It's such a great answer and I'm so happy to hear it because I don't think a lot of people think that way. That just proves why you're able to manage such huge scale of people.

15:05 My last interview, I remember it was so funny because I actually invoked that into the people interviewing me. I always felt that if I'm going on an interview, I'm interviewing them as well. And I always ask, what's the problem? What's the problem? You try to evolve. What do you need to see in the 1st 90 days? What do I need to accomplish? And I remember that interview, it was on a day that snows so badly that they closed the office. And I'm one of these people that I have to be on my deathbed not to show up if it's on my calendar, unless you don't have a mishap with calendaring or something, which has happened here and there. But I'm going, so I have my truck and I was driving an hour and I call them up and I said, hey, are you open? Because I'm getting ready to walk out the door. And they're like, well, the office is closed, but we're here, the 2 owners, two female owners. I remember.

15:59 And I said, well, I'll see you, I'll be there in about an hour. I went over there and I think they were pretty impressed with that. But that's just my personality. Like I don't let snow and crazy stuff. I mean, it's going to be really bad. So I get there. And that was the conversation. It became like I was there to be a consultant for them, which by the way is really smart for owners to get free consulting. When you're hiring, it's fine. You get to hear how a person thinks, how they problem solve and can they actually bring something to your organization that's going to help you? Because sometimes you hire people and they become a part time job for you just dealing with them.

16:41 And what good is that? The whole idea is to hire someone to help grow the business. Short story about that long time ago I went, I was hiring, I interview everybody. So a lot of the companies and organization, especially the large rooftops, one company I'm speaking with 300 plus people to hire every position from the lock eye to the technician to office to to everything. And I was interviewing these lock positions and one gentleman stood out like like Noah tomorrow. His name's Chris. And I still remember him to this day because while talking with him, it was more of this is your baby. This is our outside showroom. And he turns to me. He says, I was outside looking at your Maroney labels and I noticed that the accessories you have on the stickers don't align perfect with the the window sticker. So it looked like it's almost factory related. So he goes, me personally, he goes. I suggest if you actually bought sizes that fit and color-coded better with the Maroney labels, that alone from us talking stood out so much to me that I ended up changing everything and it made a difference on there of how they look, the presentation and everything else.

17:51 That's somebody I hired right on the spot and he was with me for a good 20 some years until he end up retiring. But those things stand out the most. You nailed it on me personally. I interview whoever. If I'm going to a company, I'm interviewing them just so much as they're interviewing me. And it's up to both of us to make sure because some people are not great to give interviews as well. They're asking you what animal you want to be in. And we have to do the best we can to draw that relationship that you want out of that hour, 20 minutes, half an hour, 2 hours, whatever the conversation is during that interview so you can get the best out of the interview. That just came to mind real quick too, for the story of of consulting and putting things out there. It doesn't matter what level coming in, bringing something to the table when you go to these interviews is tremendous. If any tips at all for anybody interviewing out there that that's such a big thing.

18:44 Absolutely. Nick, Your book through the lens of perspective feels like the internal operating manual behind leadership. What is perspective in practical terms? You know what perspective itself, it means something different to everyone. Everyone's normal different, so the way they see it through their eyes is how they're going to see their perspectives through their eyes. When I try to do through my book is giving perspective a simpler view, making it more than for instance, as I said, for gratitude and another other categories that are under perspective itself.

19:24 Writing it was more to simplify for people just to be able to sit there and say it relate to be like it's raining outside. Oh my gosh, it's raining outside. It's such a horrible day outside saying oh, it's good for the grass. As silly and small as that. If you could bite a little bite out of what perspective is, when it becomes to a larger perspective, I feel like you're training your brain to be able to say, hey now because I can understand to look through other people's eyes when they're talking. You're able to to graph the different point of views of how perspective is in different ways of looking at things. And it definitely changed my role 100%. Right. And also, when you have people who are in your business who are super negative and highly emotional, it really has such an impact on everyone else and it really can damage your ethos and your culture. Do you think that the lack of perspective can really damage a business?

20:25 I agree, I agree and and and that's majority of the time. A lot of people don't know what they have and they need to be shown in a different way, but that that's the number one will in the top ten of business killers morale and changing people's perspective of how they see things to say. Hey, this me coming to work right now. It's not my life I'm building so I can have a better life outside of here, but it's spinning it off in ways that make you feel more comfortable not settling, but more comfortable saying, OK, there's a bigger purpose to the what I'm doing right now. And this perspective of someone saying how I show up every day to work, marriage, everything. Yeah.

21:08 And we're we're going to definitely jump into that as well. One of the things that is I would think part of perspective and actually maintaining a long term business, I would think is resilience. But it's not just the resilience of the owners, but the people that you bring in and have to have that internal resilience because things are always going to go wrong in a business. What are your thoughts on that? No, I agree. It ties in in relationship. I know we're going to get into the marriage and relationship, but everything ties in together. So the the business that you have when you open it in day one to day to Year 5 to to year 10 and so forth changes as time goes on. And it's important that the the people that you have that are there with you rolling, that you place in certain positions are rolling with your business at the same time, because at the end of the day, you're not going to survive a lot of these quick future turnarounds.

22:13 And the business is like day trading. I mean, it's constantly like new things are coming out the way people are researching things, marketing different products and services. To be able to be resilient in the business, you have to be able to keep up with the time and say, hey, listen, my business right now is 3 years old. It's five years old, it's 10 years old or three days old. And you need to make sure that you hire the people that that fit into that turn and are also there underneath the same fight as you are the same cause. Because otherwise you won't get the whole teamwork to keep that business going and to be resilient to overcome and weather some of these hard storms that we go through as entrepreneurs. Absolutely.

22:56 I would think resilience, of course, is super important, especially as things are changing so quickly with technology, for example, AI and I know people panic and think, Oh my God, I'm going to lose my job or and don't want to adapt to the new situations. We went through COVID. If you don't have resilience and you can't shift gears and figure out a way to stay alive, not just the owner, but the employees and the people working with you. It it's a problem. But I think that's why it's, gosh, hiring rock stars and people who take ownership and come into a business with that mindset is such a game changer.

23:40 And it's not an easy thing to do, I have to say, because it was a hiring manager for most of my career and bringing in really good, resilient people that have perspective, that are willing to roll up their sleeves and just keep the ego to a minimum, including the whole right. Because I think really distort perspective when their egos get in the way of things as well. You're there to listen, you're there to support, and you're to take it all in and then create something with what you're getting from. Listen, I agree. And sometimes it's it does start with the owner, it's their checkbook. Even myself, but I'm a little bit more open because I'm working with different organizations. I make sure that I don't repeat other mistakes when I hire for myself and sometimes it's tough to get the right person. You have to open your wallet and your budget. They come down to whoever owns the business establishes like that's my name in the building and that's my checkbook. It's the up the hill of battle.

24:41 Say, hey, listen, this person will complete us and get us to the next level. We have this much that we bring to the table. This person will help guide us to the next half and into the future and then we can build off there. But not everyone's ready for it. So people's pockets are very deep in these organizations and it takes a little further for them to to comprehend and understand that the growth behind it. But no, you're 100% right. It comes down to the hiring process and being clear and knowing what you need and making sure that ought to be resilient is getting the people you need. That's going to take you to the future, not just today.

25:21 Before we shift out of perspective a little bit, turning towards matchmakers and what they deal with. Matchmakers handle a lot of emotional labor on a daily basis because they're working with individuals who want to find a partner and sometimes will lash out. There's a lot that goes on in this industry and you're there to support and get your ego out of the way and be resilient and also have the best possible perspective towards your clients when they're having these emotional situations. So how would you advise a matchmaker on how to maintain a certain level of perspective to prevent burnout when dealing with these situations with clients who are highly emotional? I mean, the industry in and of itself is just an emotional it. Is it's funny when it comes down to how we handle our clients because we deal with somebody's ups and downs. If they had a four time at home and they have nobody else but the the vendor or support team or whoever, they ended up trickling out there.

26:28 You're dealing with a lot of different personalities. The best thing you got to understand who your client is. Everyone's a little difference. And once again, I say this constantly to to my teams. Everyone's normal is different. And once you get respect that, it's a lot easier to understand a person because we're not going to be able to change every one of our clients. We could do the best we can, but at the end of the day, the hired us to solve is probably added for us to be the solution. The best way in the device that I would give people is stick to what their problem is and solve it. Emotions will calm down when someone sees, oh wow, that was a big thing on my plate and they took care of IT. People for calming down and easing. Not every entrepreneur could handle that yet. I've seen a couple of my buddies and friends that get get a little frantic over it.

27:15 They almost want to drop a client and I'm like, that's the worst thing you can ever do is drop a client unless it's a completely toxic relationship where some things are are worth dropping. Now we're really that helped me out plenty of times. I've dealt with a lot of huge egos in my industry and it's always who is the bigger person and I why am I taking advice? I'm worth like some billion dollars. Why am I taking advice from you? You're you're not at my status or whatever the case is and you got to stick to this is what I found. These are the pockets. This is how we could take care of it for you. And you know, they take it, they take it, but you're there to solve a problem.

27:55 Yeah, such great advice. And I'll tell you, it's funny because what with the training that I provide, I have had, as a matter of fact, right now I have someone in my course who has been in the business for 26 years. And she's incredibly intelligent. She's a medical Doctor Who is also a matchmaker. And I love that she recognizes and comes into this with sort of like a beginner's mind, which is one of my mottos. It's like a Japanese, I would say Shoshin. I always talk about it Japanese. Yeah, I love that. I love that. Yeah, it's like come in with a beginner's mind. Because I do believe that the smartest people out there are the ones who are always open to receive and open to learning. And I'm, I'm in like a junkie for, for learning. Like that's my one vice.

28:47 I'm constantly learning something. My husband says, I'm going to go crazy. He's like you, you're going to go crazy. How many webinars do you need to be? How many courses you need to take? I'm like, I need it. I need more. And the, the thing that I did shift and this is how I run my school too, is that I learned something and do something because I feel like a lot of people just want to learn, but then they don't do anything with it. And so I made it a point when many years ago that I said, OK, no more learning unless I'm doing like literally I would even learn at one point. I used to learn one word per week, like to enhance my vocabulary. I'm like, OK, if I learned that word, I'm going to use it at least three times in a conversation that today I've just implemented this thing of Walker's walk.

29:33 OK, So last question on this. What do you say to a founder, particularly these matchmakers who feel personally responsible for the outcomes that they have no control over? Because in art industry, people come to a matchmaker because they want to meet a partner and they want to find love. They want, they want that's the the outcome that they want. However, matchmakers have 0 control over that. All they can do is follow a process, support their clients every step of the way, but they can't control if someone's a self saboteur, that if someone was just not satisfied, is always looking for the bigger, better deal, etcetera.

30:19 That it's completely out of the control of the matchmaker. So what would you say? Especially when it comes down to perspective, like it's you. You're not personally responsible for outcomes that you can't control. How do you deal with that? You know, it all starts, everything's a discovery questions. So in the beginning of any relationship, you want to make sure you're a match. Not every match is meant to be. So an opportunity doesn't mean it's always an opportunity. So before I connect or collaborate with anybody, I make sure that we're aligned. If you're strictly looking at a dollar figure like, oh, someone's throwing money in my company, let me just take it and go. You don't know what type of stress it's going to add and how many other clients it could cost you because of the time in you're spending with the person because you didn't size up the scope of work of what you're doing in local 2 to see what discovery that they want, what questions in particular to make sure everything aligns up. Me personally, be smart, which in discovery questions know what you have to offer, but do a lot of listening of what they want out of you to be clear, because a lot of these people have clients, they fall into patterns. So if someone's been open for 60 years, 50 years, 40 years, 10 years, 2 year, whatever the case is, you want to know their patterns on of what they've been doing during that time and why now Why are you in front of me today? Like what changed from yesterday today? Have you ever dealt with somebody like me before? Not me personally, but a company who actually orchestrates on what I'm bringing to the table and what I do, what happened with them.

31:48 And you don't want to say you don't want to go to dive into because every relationship is different. But if you know their attentions, what they're planning on doing, why they brought you to the table and also to your scope of work. It has to be very clear, clear boundaries. And you always want to go a little more and ahead of the cost of for a client, but you don't want to be taken advantage of. At the end of the day, would love go you only go so far. You still need money to pay the bills. So you're going to make sure that your scope of work discovery questions are there and then it it works to match a relationship with your client. And then it's a lot healthier because you get cross reference. Hey, listen, Mr. so and so last time we spoke, this is what you want to be accomplished.

32:31 So we can rephrase back and say to go to the discovery questions. Great. What's next in our chapter in our lives that you were looking to bring? So you're going to have to costly bring back and re interview your clients to make sure. So once you go down the scope of work, great. We did this all together. We kicked butt good jaw. We scaled it to X. What's next on our adventure? I have things in mind. I just want to make sure they align with you. We're there to guide them, but we also have to listen and ask constantly, interview questions and review to make sure that that the scope of work is where it is. So you don't go left field with a client and then you kind of lose them in a mix and they forget who you are.

33:13 You know what I mean and why they've hired. You that is so good. Oh my gosh, you can definitely come and teach that that part of the training, because we're saying the exact same thing. I say this all the time that you really, sometimes people get caught up with the money and they want to do that one call close and they're taking on clients that they don't even know or they don't even have a very specific filter for deciding who makes a good client for them. And then you end up with these clients that keep you up at night and make you lose the world to live. Marriages. Right. And I mean, so you are spot on with everything that you said really.

33:55 And then constantly bringing back and having those boundaries of letting them know this is what we discussed, this is what we're doing because people forget and they start to get kind of all over the place and it just, oh, it's so good. And this is just proof that regardless of what type of work you're doing, if you're good, if you're a professional and you understand business, that this applies. Even in the love industry, even though people get, Oh my God, a matchmaker, you're still running a business. This is an operation. There is a method to scalability. There's a method to maintaining a business that runs within a framework.

34:38 All of it. And I love to having these conversations with people. Like you. Not at all in this industry, because you say the same things that I've been saying and it applies to the matchmaking world. Nick, your second book moves into the realm of marriage, which I absolutely love. Then for entrepreneurs, especially matchmakers, this is deeply relevant core philosophy. You say the secret isn't staying together, it's growing together, correct? What does that require? And I just love them, by the way. It's meeting each other. My wife and I got blood. I love Vanessa. Together since 18 and 19 years old. We met, we had our kids at a young age, but it was more of meeting each other at different points of lives.

35:22 You know, we you grow. So even if you you start a relationship in your 30s, your 40s, your 50s, your 60s or 70s, I could go put on there. It's meeting that person at that point. Every stage of myself throwing, I made sure and my wife did a great job to making sure she met me at my level. So when I was in her 20s compared to 25 to 30. Our ambitions change, our point of views change, our perspectives change and to have a healthy relationship of the growth is making sure we met each other at each one of those point throughout our our marriage or relationship and also be my my friend.

36:04 That's more important than marriage at all to be able to be like I don't need I got her. But meeting your spouse, doesn't matter how you tie it behind a ring or just boyfriend, girlfriend or a relationship. There is meeting each other at each one of the points and respecting the fact that the growth is there, that this person grew and this person now is a different maturity level. So that's part of the book I kept there, very short, meeting each other, a different point there and stages of your life, growing it together. Yeah. And I would think you seem like a very emotionally intelligent guy. And especially based on your books and everything, you have to recognize when a person who's with you is evolving and check in and ask questions and be curious because people always say, well, we grew apart. You don't grow apart.

36:57 You kind of abandoned each other. You stop. I love that. Right, you keep taking people for granted instead of making those connections and and constantly being curious. I agree that that's so true and in the abandonment that it's hard. It's it's it happens a lot. It's what a few relationships and they forget. And that's the reason why I call it dating your spouse because you there's nothing more fun when you meet a relationship with somebody new. When you start dating and you're getting dressed and you're always you have those and it's not like, oh, it's Friday anytime of day. Oh, I have time after the week. Do you want to meet you real quick? That excitement in the beginning of dating somebody is that light that gives you, and that's the title itself, dating your spouse because we should be dating each other at the end of the day. It's important to have that because that's the sport that brought you together more than mentally, more than physically. Yeah, it's funny.

37:49 My my husband and I will. We'll do crazy things like we'll put some music on and have a happy hour, like it's happy hour at the Washburns until we get all excited. Let's do tequila. What are we doing today? Why we like we, we do stuff like that because that's to your point. Yeah. You have to continue to date your spouse and celebrate things and do fun things together. Fortunately, we have a we're very compatible. And I think that gets back to what we were talking about before. It's just kind of really getting to know that person and understanding is this a good relationship, whether it's business or whatever, so that you can then maintain that. It's not like we're the same, but a lot of things that are core to us that we have in common, which is so important.

38:38 Why do couples stop dating after marriage? It's distractions and sometimes you forget of the reason you originally got together, like what it would attract you to that person. But majority of time it's distractions outside work, children having kids and you get caught up in your kids become your world. But then you forget that your world started with the person that you're next to, which is dividing them into different categories and say that you and me, you and dad and then business something that takes a lot of time because that's its own relationship in itself. So you're dealing with the people from your workplace, you have relationships there that you're coming home, you're dealing with another relationship at home, and then you have relationship with your kids. And This is why marriage is work. You have to find moments because they say there's always time for people.

39:26 You want to make time for the people you don't want to make time for. Ah, I'm busy, I have no time. But if you really want to see somebody, it doesn't matter what it is. You always find that window for it. And it's placing that most important people in your life and making sure you do have that time. And not forgetting that if I can make an appointment in the middle of whatever for 1000 clients that I could show up to, I can still make myself accessible to have my relationship without losing out. The person that you want to grow with. It's not like your kids leave and also not let's find each other again and it happens. It's OK. But finding the time. You said about abandonment before, and it's true. Finding the time for each other.

40:08 And you know what cracks me up? When I hear people say, oh, work life balance. I'm like, there's no such thing as work life balance. It's all about integration and having a conversation of, hey, babe, I love you to death. I'm in the in the middle of a launch. So I'm going to be dedicating a lot of time to this thing. And then at the end of that, when, when we accomplish whatever needs to be accomplished there, you and I are going to celebrate. We're going to go on vacation. Just even having communication about these things because one of the things that happens when you're a match maker or a business owner entrepreneur is that it can consume you. Yes. And so it gets in the way of other relation, having relationships because you, your priorities become Askew. And the fact is, is that look, most people think that working more and hustling and all this stuff is how you get ahead. Sometimes you just have to step away and get perspective. Take a vacation where you can think and regain your sense of self and actually rest and come back stronger and more strategic than if you're just hustling day in and day out. And I don't think people have an appreciation for that. You yelled it too with communication because sometimes, especially like right now, currently I am on the middle of purchase a new company and I have to realign everything. So Vanessa knows that there's no clock right now. Yesterday I'm up until 3:00 in the morning and then I'm up at 7 or 6 or whatever.

41:41 You get those couple hours. Sometimes if I go a little early, I'll get up at 4:00 or five and I'm done the whole window. But she knows in other stands that's very important to communication and respecting the person's goal. Though you can share that. Say, hey, listen, I want this is my next chapter. I'm going to go after. I'm going to have to put a lot of hours in and for them to understand and respect to say, you know what, go for it. Not hardship. All you were up until 3:00 in the morning putting together all your content, everything else you need or whatever the case is. So communication is tremendous and and then finding making sure you do have the time to place times and pockets in between everything so you don't lose.

42:22 But if you have time to text a friend, you have time to text your spouse, you have time to text anybody else, and within order to you have a moment to say, hey, how are you? How's everything going? I love you, hope you're good. I'll catch up for dinner later on tonight if that's the case. Or what do you need? Is there anything you need? And that communication goes such a long way within a relationship. Both parties have to be willing and respectful to the other person's goal and what they want to accomplish. I'm not saying discovery questions as they said before, but it's good to know somebody and what their ambition is and what they want and it helps with communicating. It's so, so important and communicating, meaning listening and taking it in because like to communicate outward and do all the talking, but really listening and being able to understand and to be mindful.

43:12 The thing I used to talk about a lot when I worked with daters, I used to be a mastermaker and a dating coach, was that you go into relationships not just to get but to give. There's a lot that you give. And part of it is, is supporting and helping people achieve their goals and caring enough about what they're doing to support them. And that's critical to a successful marriage, especially when one of the spouses is an entrepreneur, because we can do a whole show on just being married to an entrepreneur because that a lot of courage and patience because there's so many ups and downs in that area. I, I love this conversation.

43:56 I mean, we can go on and on. I think this is a really powerful conversation for people to reflect on. And I just want to mention, I like to always give people a little something to think about. They're listening some questions to reflect on. Are you building culture intentionally or accidentally? Because that was the beginning. Part of our conversation is to build a culture and bring in the right people. Are you reacting emotionally in business or leading with perspective? Are you protecting your marriage with the same intensity that you protect your revenue, which is what we're talking about here? I say from matchmakers or anybody listening, reflect on those questions and see where you are in that because it's so important for the longevity in your business.

44:48 I agree. I agree those and those are those are great and are those questions right now reflected to me to to elaborate on. Absolutely. Do a green culture, people just throw down a wall and say we have culture. I believe we culture. Culture is not, it's not something that just said, but when you build an organization, you want to start it from day one with the first employee. And port of culture is having a clear of what that means for you and then how you want to treat it. And then making sure that anybody you hire understands that this is more than just a staying. This is my Holy Grail. This is what I want my people to feel when they come in.

45:29 Of course, any business you need revenue to keep a business alive, but I want people to feel good about coming in, not somebody sitting in the Forkland to go have a short throat, let me go home or get an employee that's it's almost 6:00 and at 5:00 they're already packing your desk and saying goodbye to everybody. I want people to feel good to the point where to make sure that you end up delivering that type of message, especially as you add employees. One of my realization had a little over 3100 employees. Amongst those employees I had captains and each one of the captains had X amount of people underneath them. And the biggest thing was making sure that my message was clear to everyone that was there and reached the person all the way down to as I said before, the lock guy, which was a dramatic thing. So culture is 100% something that makes it different and at the end of the day it makes it easier to hire talents to come to your organization.

46:25 People line up to work for a company and you will get talent out of nowhere. When they get sit there and say wow this is real. The company what they stand for is real with their morals, what they do and that culture is more than what they say. And at the end of the day part of my French get but give her the assholes of your company. That plays a big role. Nobody needs such a culture killer. I apologize because you had a few different things that you mentioned besides culture. The reflection question was are you reacting emotionally in business or leading with perspective? I think it's a mix. We're human beings so we will we'll be semi emotional, but my decision making isn't emotional.

47:05 I write things down, I take a moment and if I do feel emotional about something, I will not make a decision right there and then. I'll take a heartbeat, I'll put a pin in it. Don't believe in fire drills in a company or anything like that. So I would put a pin in it and making sure that it's the right move because once it's set out loud, you can't take back. It's hard not to be emotional, but don't react on your emotions. At the end of the day, as I do put a pin on it and I told my team all the time, if you feel a certain way or something happens, unless it's something that has to be done there and then take a moment and regroup to somebody else there that's not that's at the same level, not below at the same level or above and say, am I acting irrational and take off our beat? That's such great advice.

47:52 I know sometimes people will receive an e-mail from a client and that they immediately like it's like just sleep on it. Don't go off have cock to respond to something because the next day you're going to come in and say Oh my God. Emotions are not always a good source of information. And listen to the biggest thing I hear a lot of my friends say, clients will say, and it's fair question, what are you doing for me? They'll they'll throw target questions and degrade and make it seem like what am I paying you for? And it builds out emotion to stay in my how do I justify yourself to a company or your clients? The heartbeat goes a long way. At the end of the day, I tell even my wife, my kids, take a beat, take a beat. And then you're clear.

48:37 You'll be able to answer accordingly. A little bit calmer and collective tone then. Absolutely. Well, Nick, this has been an incredible conversation. Thank you so much for all of your perspectives and everything that you've shared. I think that this will be a great opportunity for people to really reflect on what they're doing both in their business and their marriage. And of course, we will share the links in the show notes for folks to go out and buy those books. Thank you. Is there anything you want to share? Any last words or how can people get in touch with you? LinkedIn is the most powerful tool and Myspace is on LinkedIn, so if anybody did want to reach out to me, feel free Nicolo Scufinatis to jump on. I'm sure if you typed in my last name, there's only a handful of us on here so you'll definitely be able to find me. And keep in mind every dollar for my books goes to domestic violence, my wife's organization for domestic violence against women and children.

49:41 So the portions go there and the rest I contribute from my my foundations and my companies towards those causes. But any help at all be great. I had no idea. That is so awesome. I love that. Thank you. You're, you're an amazing person and I hope that you'll continue to have amazing success and you deserve it. I love what you're putting out there. And I think we need more and more individuals like you sharing what they know and helping others entrepreneurs to really succeed both emotionally and understanding business. All of it can come together. It doesn't have to just be one thing. So thank you so much for your dichotomy and for everything that you shared today. Well, thank you for having me.

50:25 I really enjoyed this. I appreciate it. Thank you. If today's episode resonated, make sure you're subscribed to the Matchmaker Mentor Podcast on YouTube and Spotify. New episodes are released weekly and are designed to support professional matchmakers who want to operate with clarity, structure, and integrity. You can also join our monthly industry brief, On the Radar for ongoing insight into what's changing behind the scenes in professional matchmaking. Until next time, stay grounded in your standards, intentional in your systems, and committed to doing this work at a higher level. I'm Arlene Washburn and this is the Matchmaker Mentor Podcast.