Breaking Stigma & Building Connection: Dr. Peter Zafirides on Mental Health, ADHD & Modern Love

0:00 Your host is Arlene Washburn, an award-winning ethical matchmaking advocate, mentor, and industry innovator. Let's dive in. Welcome back to the Matchmaker Mentor podcast where we help aspiring and experienced matchmakers build thriving ethical businesses and give daters the insights they need to succeed and love. Today I'm joined by a very special guest, Doctor Peter Zafaridis. He's a board certified psychiatrist and a Co founder of Central Ohio Behavioral Medicine where he spent nearly 30 years caring for patients and depressed with depression, anxiety, ADHD and bipolar disorder. He's been honored nationally as one of America's best doctors. And what makes his work stand out is the way he makes complex emotional issues feel feel clear, relatable, and deeply human.

0:54 And in this conversation, we're going to unpack how emotional health effects our relationships, why stigma still gets in the way of healing, what ADHD really looks like, especially for entrepreneurs and matchmakers trying to juggle it all, and the role loneliness plays in our health and well-being. We'll even touch on one of my favorite studies of all time, Harvard. Harvard's 80 plus year study on adult development and what it teaches us about living a happy and connected life. Doctor Zafaridis, welcome to the show. Oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. It's great to be here, Arlene. Yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation with you, especially with your vast experience. And what I love about what you do is your approach is not, it just seems different.

1:46 I mean, reading all your posts on LinkedIn, and I just love the advice that you give and the fact that you're even kind of giving that advice. And it's not so much like your average psychiatrist is more about, you know, giving out medicines and things like that. So I love what I love what you do. And so I'm so glad that we connected. So you've been practicing psychiatry for nearly 30 years. What is for you to go into this field and how has that perspective on emotional health evolved over time? Yeah, it's a, you know, I, if you would have told me in medical school that I was going to be a psychiatrist, I probably would have laughed you out of the building. So it wasn't that I had this whole, you know, lifelong desire to be a psychiatrist, but, you know, as I went through my medical school training and residency, I really found that I connected with psychiatry.

2:38 I hadn't gotten there initially. I had actually matched in radiology. My father was a radiologist. So I figured that's a good career path for me. But it was simultaneously the, the, you know, worst and best year of my life in the sense that, you know, I was kind of miserable. It wasn't what I wanted to do. And I found myself just migrating back to a lot of the psychology readings and that and, and it was, you know, I, I tell people outside of, you know, finding my wife and asking her to marry me, this was probably one of the probably the truest decision I've ever made in my life to return back to psychiatry. So it's, you know, it's, it was a little bit of a circuitous travel, but it got to where it needed to be. And I've just loved it.

3:20 It's hard to believe it's been 30 years that I've been doing this, but it's been a great journey for me. You. Know what's really impressive about that is you often talk about the stigma surrounding mental illness. And nowadays you hear about people who are just started dating and they have a therapist or couples that just proactively have therapists or people supporting them. And you know, the stigma still exists. But back then, Oh my God, it was like certain communities were like, yeah, mental health that just doesn't exist for us, you know, like, right. Amazing that you actually made that decision such a long time ago, but I know the stigma surrounding mental health still exists today. Can we talk a little bit about that and what's been your experience so far?

4:09 Sure. I mean, it definitely has gotten better, certainly over 30 years of my own practice. And it's interesting. But I'll tell a quick story about my father, who was an immigrant from Greece and was a full radiologist there. But when they brought him, when he came here, when, when my mom and he moved here, he didn't know any English. So for three years he had spent at at a local psychiatric hospital here in Dayton, OH. So here's a Greek immigrant know English and he's doing psychiatry of all things. And I only say that because I got to get kind of a first hand blush of what it was like in the 60s, let alone in the 80s and 90s when I came through. So there was a huge, you know, improvement over that period of time. But specifically within my 30 years it, it has been, I think a clear improvement in, in stigma where people are willing to talk about, especially younger people, they're willing to come in.

5:02 They don't hold much of the stigma of what it means to come in and see a psychiatrist. I mean, for me and, and my goal with anyone who comes to see me and also how I try to reflect it in some of the creative things that I do with my writings and such as I just don't want people to think after they've seen me that that's not what I thought seeing a psychiatrist would be. So that it would help in some way, just the conversation to lower that stigma. So that's always on my mind when I'm talking to someone clinically. But we still see a fair amount of of stigma. And I'm sure that, you know, you've probably seen it in, in the work that you do in still first generation or immigrant populations where it's not uncommon for me to see the children of of, of first generation like myself.

5:50 But currently that this has never been talked about and that it was quite a step for them to come in and see someone like myself. So I never take that for granted. It's gotten a lot better, but we still have a long way to go as it relates to stigma. Absolutely. And I'm also a first generation and from where my mother came from, they don't even talk about any kind of health issues. Like it's the secret, you know? And, and those secrets are so detrimental. Like to have to grow up in an environment where everything's a secret. You don't talk about this, you don't talk about that. It's like I feel like that creates a mental health problem. It absolutely does. It absolutely does, yeah. So, and we didn't talk about this, but I want to bring this in because it just kind of came to mind, you know, about this younger generation.

6:40 I'm seeing a lot of people that are getting a diagnosis of bipolar disorder and I actually have a family member and who's gone through that. And this, this person, she's my niece, who I absolutely adore. She's so competent, so responsible. I mean, she's my go to person and to some extent I feel like getting that diagnosis was good and bad. And also all the different medications that she has been prescribed have been so challenging. Even recently, I know there was a new one that came out that is an injection for people who forget to take their medication. This one's an injection.

7:29 And she was given that and she's like, I need, I need a break just to adjust to this thing. So I had her come and stay at my house for a month and she was fortunate enough to be able to take that time off. And I mean, she was walking around like a zombie. She had all these different tics and things that just were developed by these. And I'm curious like, because there's so many amazing smart people who are running businesses who might have that particular disorder. And, you know, what do you recommend to these folks to kind of have this normal life? Because I always tell her, look, you know, somebody could have diabetes. That doesn't define them. That's not who they are. They just have diabetes. They they manage it and they're getting on with their lives.

8:10 But for her, like this has been like a big struggle. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah, it's it's interesting with bipolar, we talked about just the general stigma of psychiatry that is there. But then within the diagnosis there's even more. And I think you can come in and be diagnosed with depression or anxiety or panic or social phobia or something like that, or even EDD, and it that's accepted. But I have found even within the individuals where I've made the diagnosis of bipolar disorder, there's pushback. So it seems like that's next level. For whatever reason, I'm not crazy. A lot of times people will tell me when they're diagnosed with bipolar and I have to walk them back down. You're not crazy.

8:53 That's not what we're talking about here. But you're right, these are challenging diagnosis and we know as a group bipolar individuals are the ones that are probably going to be the ones that are the most non compliant of the mood disorders, schizophrenia put aside, but of the mood disorders. So it's a challenging population to deal with. Now, as we've talked about stigma, one other part of the stigma really comes from the legacy of psychiatry itself, right from, say, my daddy's experience when he was in the 60s, of what I've seen going through in the 90s and heretofore. So part of the stigma also comes from the challenging medications that we've had over the years. They have gotten unbelievably cleaner and easier to take, but we're still in the early parts of that, especially as it relates to the mood stabilizers and some of the antipsychotics that are approved in bipolar disorder. So those are a challenge and sometimes people push back because understandably of the side effects that are there. But there is such an urgency to treat bipolar because I remember back in residency and it's always stuck with me. We had a lecturer come in who was a bipolar researcher, and he said the way I like to think about bipolar disorder is like a tornado going through your house, right? You spend years and years building it up and making it a home and then Wham, here comes a tornado destroys everything. And that's what happens with mania. So while it can be somewhat

10:25 productive when you're hypomanic, mania can really destroy lives. And I've seen it happen, whether it's relationships or bad financial decisions or career disasters that have occurred that will happen. So it it is challenging. We still are working and, and the medications have gotten so much better. But here there really is an urgency to treat, not only to get people better, but what we've understood as well with bipolar is you have to be as aggressive as possible in treating this from a biological perspective because any residual symptoms that are there, like maybe insomnia or agitation can act as kindling to start another episode.

11:05 So it's it's challenging because you have to work hard at that. Medications can be a challenge. And then what it means to the person to be bipolar, it just still it that's just a different level diagnosis compared to depression, anxiety or ADD at this point. Yeah, cuz I think about all the entrepreneurs I know she used to have her own shop. I also think about connecting and having relationships where you, you know, there's this feeling of like, I'm not good enough, I'm not adequate, there's something wrong with me. So I can't have a criteria for the type of partner that I want because I'm damaged goods. And it's an ongoing conversation of like, no, you're, you have a situation that needs to be treated and everything else, but you are still worthy.

11:52 You are valuable. You can succeed there. I know there are a lot of people who live with with these disorders and they're able to manage, you know, through medication and therapy and all of that and also have very successful lives. I mean, a lot of artists, a lot of people who are accomplished dealing with that. That's very true, yeah. Talking about ADHDI know I'm a self diagnosed 1, but you know, I, I teach matchmaking and one of the things that comes up with my students all the time is how do I get focused? And I, I often give them, you know, different tools and things to, to use that I use myself.

12:37 I, I'm more, you know, like when I find myself really getting like all over the place, I actually get back into my routine of waking up and doing my meditation. And I'd love to hear your take on meditation because I'm, I'm always prescribing it to everybody. Like do some meditation. Just it just calms you, especially first thing in the morning when you wake up and you're not distracted and you're not in fight or flight mode, which is I think what happens, they pick up their phones and they start looking at all the issues and thinking of all the problems instead of just getting grounded and focused. But what do you say to the folks that are, you know, entrepreneurs have to be self-propelled, they need to be focused, they need to accomplish things.

13:18 And when you get a diagnosis like ADHD or you think you're, you have ADHD and I know that's like a big umbrella that I feel like I don't know, I'm not an expert. I would love to get your take on what is, how do you deal with it and what are your recommendations for entrepreneurs and people dealing with this. Yeah, no, it's a great question. And I guess a little bit of context maybe, you know, evolutionarily, right, We, you know, it makes sense that we need all brains in society. And you know, for me, I think I don't know how we ever prove this, but I'm a big believer in a lot of what we see with depression, with anxiety, with ADD, say seasonal components of depression probably represent evolutionary fragments of times when that mood was beneficial, right?

14:05 And, and now the living in a society that was all or non live or die threats were immediate and where we've now become, you know, pretty much air conditioned, you know, 24/7, you know, feeding and, and artificial light everywhere. A lot of these, you know, basic coping skills, maybe specifically with the brain aren't as critical to our survival, yet they still exist. But more specifically to, to ADD, it helps to understand a little bit of maybe how we understand the biological framework for that. And the way that I explain it to my patients is when we look at the the brain of an ADD person, if this were like typical brain metabolism or the activity of the brain, we see just a little bit lower for those that have ADD.

14:48 So the brain burns a little bit cooler. Nothing wrong with that because we need all brains in society. So if we're not talking about the person who needs to be treated with ADD, maybe a person who leans more that way, you could see the benefits because they're not paying attention. And people who don't pay attention probably don't pay attention to rules. And if you're not paying attention to rules, this is where the font of creativity comes together, right? I took this. I took this and put it together. How did you do it? Well, I, I don't know. It just came together. Boom, there's a, you know, there's a business idea. Boom, there's an artistic piece or something like that, right? So these are the rainmakers, these are the entrepreneurs. These are the people who come up with the big ideas, but these individuals aren't going to be the people who balance the books, right? So we may look at those individuals that burn a little bit hotter, that might trend a little bit more towards OCD, right?

15:40 So they're going to be the accountants, they're going to be the tax preparers, they're going to be the proofreaders, you know, the the schedulers, all of that very important. But we see where some of these differences in brain activity lead people more towards those careers. So it's kind of the specifically for the entrepreneur, it's kind of the Ying and Yang of that. Yes, you're kind of blessed with that because you were able to kind of create something out of nothing. Where you have to be careful is if it is affecting me to the point that I'm not able to succeed like I would like, then I need to pay attention to that. So what you know, the, the mainstay of treatment is usually the stimulants. There are some non stimulant treatments, but the stimulus, if we understand this model, is you normalize that brain metabolism, right?

16:27 So when you do that, it's very distinct because the person who has ADD and takes a stimulant, it's not focus that we're looking at because you give anyone a stimulant, they're going to focus, doesn't matter if you have ADD or not. But the person with ADD will focus, but they slow down. It gets calm in their mind, Everything kind of eases down. They're able to think kind of that crackle of ADD has quieted. And that makes sense. If we take someone who doesn't have ADD and move them a little bit higher, they'll still focus, but they might get crunchy, they might get agitated, they might get irritated, they might get anxious might be enough for them to cram for a final or get a project done, but they're not going to take it day-to-day. So when people come in, what I'd love, it's one of my favorite things to treat because people will come in and they'll be like, I had no idea I could feel like this. And the the dominant part of that is that it gets quiet, right?

17:18 So I think that's, you know, what, what we see with the formal treatment being to address your question on, on meditation, I'm a big believer. We have to look at any of the emotional health treatments as a holistic approach to it. So I'm a big believer in meditation. I do my morning stoic meditation and readings and journaling. And that's a nice way for me to start. It's not the only way. Meditation you know can be exercising or running. I tell people don't overthink it. If you want to meditate but it seems overwhelming. Pick 3 songs that you really love that are like just calming to you and justice. Put those on for about 1015 minutes and then start your day.

18:00 So we, we run into this paradox where you're right, people are just picking up the phone right away and, and they're, they're just already kind of anxious and nervous because the brain has been set into motion in in almost a counterproductive way when we do that right away. So I think it's a good habit because it makes a difference in in being calm, but it also sets the stage from a from a habit that this is what I'm going to do first. That is really kind of self fulfilling and self enduring for me. I love that I, you know, I and Full disclosure, I thought I had ADHD and then I was like, I need to get some Adderall because I need to focus and, and it wasn't a thing where it was a consistent like all over the place.

18:44 It's just certain times in my life where I felt all over the place trying to get that Adderall was like a feat. Like it was like, oh, my God, like you're buying some illicit drug or something. Yes, I finally got it and I took 1 and I thought I was going to die. I'm like, Oh my God, how could anybody take this? I threw it out. I'm also, like afraid of messing with my mind because my father died from Alzheimer's and my mom now has it, but she's 93. So I really can't, you know, say that that's so I'm always afraid like even like the the use of marijuana, which I live in New Jersey, it's legal here. Like anything that messes with my head, I'm always afraid of like messing with my brain because I just don't want to risk, yes, creating a worse problem.

19:32 But I've heard, I actually heard it on a podcast where they were talking about the symptom of ADHD. And I was like, Oh my God, that is so mean. Like, you know, where you like, and I feel like such a jerk sometimes. Like sometimes my husband and I will, you know, he's very regimented. He gets an idea in his head. He's almost impulsive and has to like, he's like a dog with a bone And he'll we'll talk about something that I need to do and then I just forget about it, you know, and like. And I'm like, OK, well, these things actually do affect my relationship, but I think also in part I'm more focused on like I'm very business oriented and all of this. So that's my main concern. So a lot of things fall by the wayside.

20:14 But when I heard about these symptoms of what ADHD might look like, I really identified with a, with a lot of it and, and it kind of made me somewhat worrisome. But this Adderall is not an option for me. So I'm just wondering, other than like meditation or any kind of natural thing, what can people do to like, get focused and follow through and make sure that they're not pissing people off left and right because they're kind of, you know. It's tough. I mean, from a treatment perspective, there are non stimulant treatments and they are good. The downside is unlike the stimulants which work right away, they take a little bit of time. So it's going to take a couple weeks for those medications to kick in.

20:54 But they are, they are good treatments. And as far as, you know, supplements and such specific for that, I'm not aware of any that I could say aha, here like I can with maybe depression or anxiety. But I think general strategies are really, really important. Being able to, you know, stick to a schedule, setting up your environment so that it can be as distraction free as possible. Keeping a calendar. I know for ADD people it's so hard, but you know, putting in some of those structures. Or if you have someone that you're either working with or is a colleague or a friend, what did they do that maybe aren't affected by this? Say your husband like how does he stay so regimented and following through and maybe try trying to adopt some of those schedules within your own day.

21:40 So it you know, it's it's all a matter of of degree. I mean, I always give my personal example and my uncle, God rest his soul, probably had one of the worst cases of ADD I've ever seen in my life. Never treated because it was. I mean, you know, he that was wasn't going to happen in the 50s, right? But I remember in in medical school, I had to get 2 bedroom apartments, not because I needed the space, but I needed long hallways because if I sat down to read something, I just my mind just started swimming, right. So I would have to have long hallways. As long as I was walking, I could, I could focus. So a lot of what I was reading with my, you know, my class notes and everything like that was walking. So I would walk 1012 hours a day just studying. So I used to kid with my dad.

22:27 It was probably probably, you know, 20 or 40 milligrams of Adderall away from being a surgeon. But here I am now as a, as a psychiatrist. But if you, you understand how you migrate to, to these types of occupations, mine is mostly a visual kind of field or, or specialty as opposed to something that is intense like maybe a surgeon or something like that. So, you know, it makes sense. Even my radiology, you know, pick was more, you know, visual. So we tend to migrate to some degree. You know, there are really good books that that have looked at, you know, some of the strategies that don't involve medication. So it's just a matter of of degree for the individual, though, is having an honest assessment how much of this cause anyone can say they're ADD today, but how much of this is materially impacting my life in terms of am I able to succeed educationally?

23:21 Am I able to succeed professionally? Am I succeeding in my relationships? Right. Those are kind of the core things that we look at that what separates maybe an ADD ish brain versus someone who's really got a clinical syndrome that is really impacting their growth. So it's, it's, you know, it's sometimes it can be a little bit elusive of how we treat. Yeah, well, that's, that's really good. Good to know. And really just basing it on whether or not it's really impacting your life. Another huge issue we face, especially post pandemic is loneliness. And the fact that we're so connected techno technology wise, I feel like also has created a huge disconnect, especially for daters and just overall, even families. I mean, I think people look on Facebook and they see what's going on in somebody's life.

24:16 And that feels like enough to actually instead of picking up the phone and make and having a conversation with someone. And I know for years, my daughter, if I called her, she wouldn't even answer. It had to be a text message, you know, is when you're raising kids. She's a grown woman with a child now. So life has changed, but I don't what are your thoughts on what's happening right now? Because I know it's definitely affecting the, you know, the matchmaking worlds. People are so lonely, they're so disconnected and they're having a struggle to, to actually get into relationships. And I feel like that's why matchmaking is such an important part of the solution, part of the solution.

24:58 You're part of the solution. There's so many things. What are your thoughts about this loneliness epidemic? No, I, I would agree with you. I mean, I, I don't think it is being too dramatic to say that it's, it's an epidemic. We look at the numbers that are out there and, and you know, especially for, for adults of dating age, if you will. I mean, these are, these are horrible numbers that we see. And it is kind of the irony of being able to be the most connected, but we're really the most distanced. We've been I remember a story and I never had thought about it in this way, just because I hadn't had any reason to, per SE, or no one had given this kind of picture to me. But a friend of ours, her daughter who was in the honors program at Ohio State here for her first year, her experience first year versus second year. So the honors program, it's a lot smaller. You dorm with other honors students, and there's a lot of conversation back and forth.

25:55 They would eat together. They would talk about, you know, just their journey just because there wasn't that many of them. And then after that, you move out to general dorms. And she said it was night and day. And the thing that struck her the most was the silence where she would go out of her room. Everyone's got their headphones on, Everyone's buried in their phone. No one's talking to anybody. And I don't mean no one, but I mean meaningfully. We've changed the way that we're communicating, particularly at those vulnerable years where the communication is such an important part of just learning how to talk, whether it's to prepare yourself for, you know, for the time in your life where you're working or the time of life where you're where you're dating.

26:37 So it isn't necessarily just the, the connection on the phone that kind of distracts us, but we're, we're kind of cocooning ourselves, you know, in our own little universe and we're, we're, it's materially affecting how we're relating to each other to where now. And you know, this more than I do, given what you do 'cause I would imagine that's maybe part of the reason people ask for your services is it's just, it's, they need to be trained on how to even communicate with each other and talk to each other. Because swiping left, swiping right is just the way that they've kind of learned. And, and when you have an endless amount of people that you can see on your phone and not have to connect with, it is really a challenging way then to change that behavior when you actually want to meet people and talk to them. So, you know, I'm sure you see that on a on a much more grander scale.

27:31 Yeah, it's, it's become extremely challenging for individuals. And I, and I kind of want to touch on this topic a little bit about the struggle that men are going through in particular right now. Because people have always thought, well, you know, this is a patriarchy and men are in charge and they're large and in charge. But the reality is, is a lot of young men and men of all ages are struggling, especially if they're single and want to be in relationship. I know that there's something happening in our society today in America and worldwide. I mean, I know countries like Japan are having a huge struggle for men to to get married and have children. Countries all over the world are paying people to move there, especially if you're of child bearing age to move there. They will pay you to in Italy and all these different countries, even Greece to start a family. And especially now that people have remote, remote work is a lot easier to do.

28:34 And what's going on? Like, what is the big shift that's creating? This is what I want to understand. I mean, I mean, we see it, you know, in the matchmaking world because now that they don't know how to communicate with one another, they're no longer making those connections. I know that the online space is creating a problem because the filters that people use online are not the ideal filters that you would use when you meet people face to face, right? They're they're weight. You know, that stupid stuff is meaningless. When you meet someone, when they used to meet at a bar or a church or some place where they were conjugating, they usually had plenty of exposure to one another, maybe frequent exposure. And then you would develop an attraction to someone and kind of overlook a lot of that stuff that, that you're trained to now filter on for matches.

29:26 And it's, it's just bonkers. And you know, I, I, I don't know what the answer is other than to bring in a human as a liaison so that you work with a human instead of an algorithm. Yeah. And I think, I think that's true. I mean, I, I see the parallels there with what we do in our therapy, right? Different circumstance, but still needing someone to help guide you through those emotional barriers and, and, and, and, and move on to feeling better. It's, it's really challenging. I mean, you can look at at data and I think it's pretty good when we say social media, not to be kind of a Luddite of we shouldn't be on anything, but pretty clear trends globally. The track with say the start of like Instagram and, and some of the social medias and where you saw global rates of depression increase.

30:16 So it's like, how can you explain that globally? And you know, I think that there is that that link there. And then what happens to those brains when they're exposed to that early on, you know, say if those approved ages of 13 and now you Fast forward 10 years of this type of behavior modification, not putting a, a wrong or right on it, but just saying if we have changed in those ten years from 13 to 20, 23 on how we communicate with each other compared to what we might have done a generation before. With all of this, we can see that there are some fairly predictable outcomes that are going to manifest themselves. And not necessarily just in in depression, but also in meaningful ways that we communicate with each other on all aspects, whether it is romantically or or otherwise.

31:05 And you know, we're seeing that with, you know, and I'm sure you've seen it as well with those, you know, clients that are business leaders and where they, you know, they worry about some of the newer, you know, recruits that are coming out and maybe giving people a couple of years before they would look at someone rather than just coming out of college for some of those just basic relationship and, and communication deficiencies that are there the. Soft skills, if you As they're saying, we should touch a little bit about how this loneliness epidemic is actually affecting people's health. Yes, I. Mean it's bonkers, you know, the equivalence of loneliness with smoking 15 cigarettes a day, having heart problems, all the things I mean, you're better equipped to share about that. Yeah, no, I mean, it's, yeah, it's, it's it's really, really difficult.

32:01 I mean, you look at some of the statistics and you know, people saying one in three adults are feeling only at least one time during the week, one in 10 feeling lonely every single day, right? I mean, this is an incredible amount of of people and especially comparing it to men who in, in these dating ages feeling lonely throughout the week, 25% of men as opposed to maybe 18% of women. So it's, it's significantly skewed, you know, towards men, but certainly we see the effects of that as it relates to health. And the question is, is why? And while it's speculative still, I I think that there's more and more understanding if we go back into history, we grew up in tribes.

32:46 So we grew up because the tribe provided protection in addition to social discourse and relationships and all of that. So it makes sense. Someone goes out into the Savannah alone, you know, they were, they were as good as dead. So the loneliness is a disadvantage in that regard. But probably what we're seeing is not just the loneliness per SE, but the anxiety and depression that comes with that, that increases the body's inflammatory response. Because when we're stressed, it makes sense that our body should have inflammation in the body. Because back in in those days, 100 thousands of years ago, you know, when we were stressed, it usually meant we were under attack.

33:29 So there's an advantage to having those inflammatory mediators in your body ready to go in case you would get cut or hurt, right? It's not live or die anymore today, fight or flight. So but those reactions are still there. And it's thought that that chronic low grade inflammation that comes from depression or anxiety or loneliness, that just that low burn compared to the person who doesn't have it over 40 years is probably the reason we see this increased incidence in heart disease or dementia or cancers or autoimmune diseases compared to those who might not have anxiety or have very low rates of it. So I think that there's a real correlate there between the stress of loneliness, what it then represents in the body as as as just a tip you, it's an understandable reaction, but it just accrues and accrues through that inflammation to where you see going down the line equivalent to smoking.

34:26 And that's, you know, I try to tell my patients that when they're saying, I feel so much better, why do we have to get it completely under control? And I say you don't want that little burn because you don't know what that can do later, you know, in in life and. You know, speaking about the men that are struggling, I think I mean, as a first generation American, we my culture embraced living with the family. You weren't kicked out of your house just because of being or you know, you, you're done with school, go get an apartment or whatever. Like that wasn't that wasn't the case. And so if you combine this loneliness that exists today because people are so disconnected. So you do not making those, those bonds that we did back in the day where you had groups of friends and you were out and you would do things together.

35:17 And now you're forced to move out of your home because it's, you know, it's frowned upon if you're still living with your parents at a certain age, that combination is deadly because now you have a young man who is living alone, you know, And if he's struggling in any particular way, I mean, like, you hear all these tragedies left and right in America, mainly coming from men and, you know, doing these, I mean, we just had something the other day where somebody showed up and, and I, I don't even like to voice it because I don't want to. Add money? I understand. No, but I know what you're talking about, of course. So yeah, you tell me like what's going on? Like cuz I, I feel like we have to get this under control and it affects all of us.

36:05 It's not just, oh, this, the men over there, like they don't care about all of us. Yeah, you're right. I mean, being first generation, I know what that was like. My grandmother was part of our, you know, staple, you know, heck, she lived across the street. She was always at our house. So we were always together, right. And, and, you know, that's less and less a likelihood anymore that it continues or the elderly are celebrated in our families. So they're just not around as much. And it's a much more difficult situation, not only for the expectation that you go out, but it's never been harder from a financial standpoint to be able to live on your own, especially as a young person and everything that you face there beyond just the loneliness itself.

36:50 So it becomes a a real moment of, of desperation. And, and we see things like we just recently saw. And I think ultimately, you know, these are, and this is my personal opinion, but I think that I think that this represents the desperation that is there in a person who feels completely useless or meaningless. And this act is just one way of mattering, if in the in their mind, if you will, or hoping that they matter in in society's mind as they go out, you know, and I think that this is, you know, some of these, if not all of them are usually suicide missions. And that really speaks to the just the pain and the desperation that is out there that leads some people to get to that point.

37:34 And it really is a it. It's really an amazing thing to see and just horrible. Yeah, it's horrible. And it affects the society as a whole is not just the individual. And it's funny you mentioned, you know, feeling meaningless. And I know that you gain a lot of your your philosophy from Viktor Frankel, right? And I don't know if you want to talk a little bit about that, but I know that his whole, you know, to synthesize it is about meaning, right? Finding meaning and everything that you do, has that informed the work that you do? Well, it's just his work and Doctor Irvin Yallem's work have been just, you know, Seminole for me in terms of understanding not only psychology and emotions, but also my own, you know, my own life and, and the idea that we move through these challenges in our lives as human beings, right.

38:27 And that's why I like so much the existential approach because it is very egalitarian. I'm not the, you know, chosen one wisdom that I'm going to impart to you about what's wrong with you, but that we all struggle with these issues of, of, of meaning, these existential concerns, meaning isolation or mortality and freedom. And that as we, you know, move through life, much of those anxieties are when we push on those. But we all do. And really to understand that these are very, very important pillars of our existence that we all have to to work through. And for the most part we all do.

39:09 But sometimes when we're hurting, when we're depressed, when we're anxious, it's usually where we're pushing on one of those that has that has been the issue. I love that because it just makes, you know, and I believe we're all connected. And so everything effects everyone to some degree. I'm, I'm a big fan of the Harvard study and like the meaning of connection. And it's the study of adult development. I know it's been going on for over 80 years. I think maybe President Kennedy was one of those where they took a bunch of kids, young men from the inner city, from the hood if you will, in Boston, and then they took the second year students that were all men initially.

39:55 Because like everything else, it always starts with the men. Yeah, buddies. And all of that in medicine and now they've incorporated families and it's been going on forever. And what they wanted to understand and, and of course they asked the, the, the young men like, what, what do you think will make you happy in life? What's what, what are the things you need to accomplish to feel happy and to feel whole and all this? And they're thinking money, accomplishment, growth, whatever. And really what it boiled down to was connection, connecting with other humans, having those relationships and how that impacts you're over time, how it impacts your life.

40:35 And this is another area that I think we're going to be seeing this next generation as they age, if they're so disconnected and lonely, because this study shows that you report less pain, that you grow old healthier just by making these connection, not always just your significant other, but anybody. So I'd love to hear your take on on that whole situation. Oh, sure. I mean, I, I, I, I totally agree with all of that. I mean, you know, certainly not to downplay some of the other things. I mean, money allows you some freedom and, and the ability to kind of choose how you live your life. But it really is in terms of happiness and happiness I think sometimes is a little bit overstated.

41:18 I think when we're talking about happiness, I think what more people are are talking about is contentment. So that there's fulfillment and there's meaning in ones life. It doesn't always have to be that you're ebullient and always feeling great, right? Because those down periods and the up periods are part of human existence. But I think it's where there is that fulfillment and contentment. I'm on the right path, I'm connected and I think that again, going back to how we've evolved, we've always grown up in groups. They not only on the literal offered protection, but they also provided fulfillment and contentment. So it's really not a surprise to see one of the primary, if not the primary issue that people talk about is relationships and connecting with other people because that is how we're wired, how we respond and where we are at our best, not only on an, an emotional perspective, but a physical perspective.

42:14 And, you know, probably that safety that we felt back then 100 years ago and or 100,000 years ago. And being in the group is manifest in that safety that we feel when we are with others in, in, in how it translates over to contentment and fulfilment. And, you know, sadly, it's, it's harder and harder for individuals to, to have those connections. And you know, it, I don't know what it's going to be, you know, in, in, in the future. I mean, one could take a look and say, you know, maybe AI will replace some of that. I, I, I don't know. But you know, it's, it really is about connections and relationships. I mean that that is where we feel the most content and we're about our healthiest, quite frankly. Yeah, and you mentioned AI.

43:05 I'm, I'm I'm a big proponent of technology. I love technology, I love advancement and I don't fear it. But when it comes to AI and this particular issue of the disconnect, I, I do get concerned with AI robotics, people actually having relationships with, with these robots and not, and just forgoing making an effort to have a relationship with another human, which it's complicated. It's not, it's not always fun. You know, you have your challenges and, and I was interviewed for a documentary where men are literally leaving the US to go to other countries to meet women there because they're divesting from the women in America because they're not nurturing enough or whatever their opinions are. They're not feminine.

43:57 You know, they're all these things and then they have higher standards and whatever. And I worry so, because if they're leaving the country, that's, that's one thing. So that leaves the women here with less opportunities, but also those who have just said, you know what, I'm over it. I'm just going to have a relationship with an AI bot and or a robot because that's coming. I think they have stuff already where, you know, physical interactions with these, with these robots. So I, I worry about that because we're, we're just going to disappear as a species. We're not having build, you know, babies, and that's actually not happening worldwide. We're not really replacing ourselves. Yes, that's true.

44:41 That's true. Yeah. It's a bit ominous to to think. I mean, hopefully what we fear the worst kind of evens out. But, you know, we, you know, it The the problem is you're right. It's, you know, we take for granted in human connections the diversity of people's experience, which is really doesn't have to be anything like your own, but can still be beautiful when you're interacting in a relationship. And you know, those, those differences are not found in, in, you know, the LLM models, right? Most of the time, they're very general and they're also motivated to agree with you. And that's, that's not necessarily how life works. So it, it becomes, it becomes a skewed reality, almost like social media, but but in the AI form, interacting with someone who might be a lot like you. And while that's OK, we kind of like to have certain touch points where we're the same.

45:35 Part of the beauty of relationships is, is seeing the difference and maybe seeing the conflict and being able to resolve through it and growing. And those are really critical parts of, of maturing and having healthy relationship and emotional lives. So yeah, it is, it's going to be a, a challenge. I, I don't know, I never counted out because, you know, we're looking at some of these early models that are, you know, a few years old and you think, well, what's it going to be 30 years from now or even, heck, five years from now? I, I don't know what it's going to be like, quite frankly. I. I don't know, but I'm going to make a, I'm going to make a prediction right now because if we don't get the situation under control and, and help men with the struggle that they currently have, which is, you know, whatever they're going through, we've always attributed to men as their identity what they do.

46:26 And I think the next crisis that's coming is people struggling about the type of work that they do getting replaced by AI. And that's worrisome in those households where the men are the main financial contributor or just in general, the fact that we've always raised our boys in our society to think you're the bread winner, which is kind of not happening any that much anymore anyway. But like, that is very worrisome because that's that's the next crisis of people stressing out about, Oh my God, I'm getting I'm going to get replaced. And I've spent the X amount of years in this career and this is what I know.

47:09 And this is so part of their identity. And, you know, I just hope that we can kind of swing the pendulum and get some sort of medium kind of thing that we could all live through this and and be OK. But that's kind of worrisome for me. I don't know. I don't know if you've given any thought to that. Oh, no, I I would agree. I, I just, it's, it's really, really rough to think of where, where things could go in terms of just further erosion of what a typical relationship might be, might be like. I'm curious if I could ask you a question real quick in terms of you've talked a lot about, you know, men and, and, and how they're impacted. But in in those that come to you and and, and seek help with relationships that are that are females. Do you see kind of a common, common theme there? Is there any kind of not that we're going back to the 50s, but a wish that maybe there might be a little bit more of a traditionalish role in a in a what? What are some of the the worries that women have who come to see you well?

48:11 That that's a great question. I mean I don't practice matchmaking anymore and I have been a science based. Dating. Yes. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Occasionally I work with a client, very rarely. But the trend that I'm seeing with women is that because they were raised to think about hypergamy, dating men who were doing as well, if not better. And also there's a bit of a mindset of like the men lead and men this, that and the other. That's that old school mentality that perhaps their parents taught them. They're struggling because they're now the ones who are going on to higher education.

48:53 They're more employed, more educated. And so it's harder to date people who at your level or better now because you have less gotten men going, you know, getting this education and earning that kind of income. And so that struggle #1 is trying to find the right partner. Struggle #2 is thinking that these partners need to be everything to you. So now people want, if they own a business, they want that person to be their partner. They want them to be their best friend. They want them to be their lover. That the father, then we got to go travel and do everything together. And that that thought that one person can fulfill everything is very challenging. So a couple, you know, those are two things right off the top of my head that I'm finding it has been a struggle for women. And I don't know if the time will come when women have to date the way men used to date, which was, hey, I make enough money for both of us.

49:55 I can support this household and you can go, you know, you can stay home and raise the kids or whatever. I, I don't know. I don't know what's going to happen, but there is a big shift and I don't know if it's going to swing back with the political climate that we're in. But it had, it continued to trend the way it was. The, the thought was that women would be controlling money by 20-30, which has always been in control, controlled by men making buying decisions and literally controlling it, being more employed, making more money, et cetera. I don't know. I don't these are the the problems that I can identify. Do I have the solution? Not necessarily. No, no, no, I get it. Yeah, I do think that. Coaching helps to get people out of their own way and say, look, this person can't be everything to you. You can have friends to do this, you can have this to that and break it up so that you're not putting so much pressure on one person.

50:49 I. Don't know. Yeah, it's, it's interesting. Yeah, sometimes I'll use the. I'll use the example when I'm, when I'm talking my patients in therapy and I'll say, well, you know, the there was this experiment they did with the biosphere. I think it's out West somewhere, I can't remember, maybe Arizona. Where they did it was a fully contained ecosystem that they were trying to see how people could do if they lived in there for two years fully sustaining themselves, right? And it was, it's supposed to be for preparation to, to colonize Mars, right? So how can we do it here and see how human beings do? It was interesting because what they found was an interesting thing with the trees in the biosphere because they would go up, they would grow to a certain height and then they would fall over.

51:32 It's like, why are these trees falling over? What's going on? They're growing like normally these are normal trees, nothing wrong. We've still got the same amount of light and and nutrients and all of that, but they would fall over. And you know what it is, is, you know, trees don't just grow straight up. They grow when there is stress on them like wind and weather, right? So they strengthen in response to that particular conflict, if you will, that comes in there adversity. And that's why these trees just didn't have anything. There was just even weather the whole time. They got to a certain point, they were just, we can fall over. And I say, you know, especially when people come in and they're talking about their relationships and that there's, you know, conflict, It's like, well, I get it. I mean, if it's terrible, terrible conflict or abuse or something, then that's unhealthy. But we can't be averse to conflict because it isn't just about the conflict, but the resolution they're after. And that's where the growth comes. And you know, another part of what I worry about today is there's not a whole lot of that there where people can hold that space, right?

52:34 Because everything, not that everything is easy, but everything is right there for you in in today's, you know, social media world or, you know, technology world, it's right there for you. And sometimes that adversity that we would normally feel within a relationship is just not there too. And I think that that impacts meaningful relationships being able to grow over a period of time. Not that we want a whole lot of stress, but part of relationships is going to be stressed. But the benefit that comes from that is how people resolve and move through and grow. And you know, that's another part of all of this that that just makes me a little bit worried.

53:14 Again, as we look at brains that are starting at age 13 and in 15 years are going to be of that mindset. How are they going to interact not just in communicating, but how do they deal with each other with stress? Is there just complete frustration at the first thing and then go? Or is there are you, do you have the capacity within yourself as a human being to hold that realizing it is uncomfortable, but that there is purpose to holding this and learning that I can mature and grow through that, not only in myself but in my relationship with this other individual? Wow, I love that. I love the analogy about the trees. I am going to research that. Incredible. But also what you're talking about, which is a trend that we've been seeing for a long time is the, the lack of resilience essentially, and having to get medication to be able to cope with it with things instead of working through and, you know, dealing with the conflict and, and figuring out ways to resolve and learning to minimize your triggers to get to a point where, yes, you're going to continue to get triggered, but can you recover faster? And those are the kind of trends that we're seeing in, in relationships that that are people are so frustrated that they're quick to end in relationships. Or I'm not going to say that the divorce rate is up because I don't, I don't believe so, but but those types of things are challenging.

54:42 And so a lot of the divorce rate may not be up, but the marriage rate is very low since the 1950s is it's gone down exponentially. So there's so much more I would love to cover with you. It's, it's been such an incredible conversation. If you had one take away for our audience of matchmakers and daters about emotional health and relationships, what would it be? Well, I think, you know, these emotional states, emotional illnesses are real. They are part of the human condition. I'm sure any individual who's listening to this either has struggled with it themselves or knows of a family member or a friend. So this is not an isolated event. You're absolutely not crazy.

55:30 These are just parts of our the human condition that affects us to various degrees, and if we can do anything, I think we can be a lot kinder with those that we know or ourselves when we struggle through these, realizing that there is help out there and that you can feel a lot better. Please do not give up hope on that. I. Love that and Doctor Zafaridis. I'm so sorry. I that's. OK, no worries. No worries. And talking at the same time. Thank you so much for joining us today. This is such a powerful reminder that our emotional health is inseparable from the quality of our relationships, whether we're running a business, dating, or building a life with someone. So for those who are listening, we'll include Doctor Zafaridi's information in the show notes if you'd like to learn more or possibly work with you.

56:24 And if you're a matchmaker, I encourage you to think about how these insights applied not only to your clients, but to yourself as a business owner. The more we prioritize emotional health, the more we're able to build thriving businesses and create lasting, meaningful connections for others. And thank you again for tuning in into the Matchmaker Mentor Podcast. Be sure to subscribe, share this episode with a colleague or a client who might benefit. And let's keep raising the standards of love and connection together. Thank you again.

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58:05 Are you ready to become an LPMA Certified Matchmaker and build a business that changes lives? Apply today at lovepromastermind.com. Thank you for tuning in to the Matchmaker Mentor Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share it with fellow matchmakers and friends. For more resources, training, and inspiration, visit lovepromastermind.com and follow us on social media. Remember, matchmaking isn't just a career, it's a calling. Let's keep building connections, changing lives, and growing together.