The Inner World of Leadership: Doubt, Loneliness, and the Cost of Holding It All Together

welcome to the Courage of a Leader podcast. This is where you hear real life stories of top leaders achieving extraordinary results, and you get practical advice and techniques you can immediately apply for your own success. This is where you will get inspired and take bold, courageous action. I'm so glad you can join us. I'm your host. Amy Riley, now are you ready to step into the full power of your leadership and achieve the results you care about most. Let's ignite the Courage of a Leader.

Welcome to the very special series UNFILTERED on the Courage of a Leader podcast. This is where we have courageous conversations about the topics that don't always get talked about in leadership, work or life. Today's episode is a compilation, and it's one I'm really proud to share. It's the most unfiltered of the UNFILTERED, if you will, what you're about to hear brings together several conversations from the UNFILTERED podcast series that explore one of the most overlooked aspects of leadership, the inner world leaders are carrying while they're holding so much on the outside. In this episode, you'll hear my UNFILTERED co host, the very talented and brilliant Daphna Horowitz, if you've been around for previous episodes of UNFILTERED, you know that Daphna is great at asking the deep questions, asking the real questions about the topic at hand in this episode, she And I talk about imposter syndrome, the loneliness of leadership and the cost of being in control, not as weaknesses, not as things to fix, things to be aware of, because they're very human responses to responsibility, care and growth in these conversations. Daphne and I challenge ourselves to stay on filtered, to resist over polishing and to talk honestly about the things leaders are experiencing yet don't always feel they have the language or the permission to name. We work to let these conversations breathe, to give them the space they need, and we do really have to work at it. I will tell you it is too easy to rush to simple solutions. Yet these topics deserve more than sound bites. This is about recognition, reflection, acknowledgement of what's at stake for you as a leader and maybe feeling a little less alone in what you're carrying. Let's get UNFILTERED.

Dan, I know you've done some research on what is imposter syndrome, so why don't you kick us off?

Okay, cool. I know that I did do a bit of reading, and I wanted to know where it started. And apparently, this phrase and term was coined by two psychologists in 1978 Would you believe that? Because I thought it was a much more recent development or concept, then, you know, going back as far as that, and in fact, it was based on research done with high achieving women. But what has been found since then is that it actually applies to different genders, ethnic backgrounds, whatever it is, it applies to everyone, and about 70% of people experience it. So I think that's, yeah, something that, as you said, we both felt, we know we've seen in others, in the work that we do. And yeah, what is your take on it?

Yeah, I definitely think it is a human condition. And I would venture to guess that it's been aroundforever, and we exactly somebody named it 78 and when you said that, you know that description of its formal initiation, I just thought, Gosh, it probably has a lot to do with how our brains work, how our brains are designed to help us survive, and has that mechanism to identify threats, and we feel that threat, we feel that threat, and do we know how to deal with it? Do we know how to deal with it? We're in a new situation. Maybe we've done this kind of work before, but not at this level, or not with these people, or not in this for. Particular set of circumstances. So I think it has a lot to do with the natural survival mechanism of our brain telling us we better be equipped for this situation in front of

us exactly. I think it goes right down to survival. And in fact, the way that I often like to look at it is actually, you know, as I said, I thought it was a more recent thing, but you're right. It's been around forever, because for me, it really is about self doubt. It's a label that we've given to self doubt, which is, whenever we feel we're on shaky ground, and then you're in this particular instance around work, we've called it imposter syndrome. We feel like we're a fraud. We feel like we haven't done the distance. You know completely, you know, believe in ourself. And all those little doubts creep out, and those doubts are linked to survival. It's the fight for black response that we have, that are that is wired into our physiology, in our brain,

yes, yes. I think that's a great way to define it, Daphna self doubt, right? And that that self doubt mounting in such a way where somebody sees it and might actually say to a coach or someone else I know you, and I have heard it from the leaders that we work with, I've got imposter syndrome, right? So I'm glad that more people are able to admit Yeah.

And I think there's something powerful about being able to name it as well, to call it imposter syndrome. I think naming something makes it easier to then deal with it, manage it, talk about it, not feel so alone in the experience. And I actually think it's a powerful way to begin the process of what I do with a thing that makes me feel like a fraud.

Yes, yes. So I think that's probably step one in our how do we deal with this? We haven't even got there yet, but yeah, yeah, is to name it. But let's share some more examples of how this can how this can show up. So I

actually that's a really great segue, because I did do a little bit of reading also on the apparently there are different types of imposter syndrome. Yeah, I think the overall umbrella is the I feel like, abroad, I'm going to be found out I'm not good enough, and all that voice in our head that speaks to us, but there's a few reasons that can lead to it. Okay, so we'll look at five. And the first one is the perfectionist. It's like, if it's not perfect, then I'm a failure. Yeah. The second is the expert. I need to know everything and be absolutely sure of everything before I can speak up, or before I can give my contribution the soloist, which is, if I ask for help, then they'll know I don't belong. They'll know I don't know. So that's the scare, you know, the scared part of actually reaching out and saying, I need some more help, support, whatever it is. And then the natural genius, if I struggle, it means I'm not truly talented, which is also interesting, interesting. And then the superhero, I have to work harder than everyone else to prove that I'm worthy so

and I can save the day. Well, I want to repeat those back and invite our listeners, Daphna, to identify for themselves, which ones are most likely to to rise up and cause imposter syndrome for them.

Reflectionist, expert, soloist, natural genius and superhero, right? Yeah,

those are powerful ways to look at it, because, to me, it speaks to the expectations, perhaps societal expectations, of how we need to be or how we need to show up. We need to know everything. It needs to be perfect. We can't ask for help.

I mean, as coaches, we know that we want to encourage and support people to dream big and achieve big goals, and whenever they do, it always does come with a little bit of fear. Yeah, because we say, if the goal is big enough, you are going to be fearful about it. You know, you are going to get a little scared. It should scare you a little bit. You know, in a good way,

we both talk about courage, right? That doesn't mean the lack of fear. That means moving forward and taking on the challenge in spite of the fear, and I would add something else to this Daphna, that when doubts creep up, it also shows that we care. We care about doing a good job. We care about doing right by our teams and the business and our clients, or. Whatever is at stake in the situation,

that it's important, that it's important enough to us, I love that angle as well. We really do care. I think sometime we're gonna what come what's coming up for me now is that we also probably care about what people think and what how people see us, and that is also part of it, and sometimes we want to let that go a little bit. Just take the risk, take the step. Don't worry if you think you're gonna sound stupid or silly or whatever it is, but that creeps in as well.

No, no, absolutely. Let's, let's be real about this, right? We care about how we are going to come across. And I to tell you another human phenomenon in this is that comparison Gremlin and Daphna, we do a very nasty thing to ourselves when we're comparing ourselves to others, right? We will look at somebody else's business development or marketing, know how, and we pick the best person we know that is most expert in business development, and then I compare my business development self to that person. And then I pick the person that's best in whatever other trait and compare myself to right we compare the best out there to ourselves. We are not fair to ourselves.

We are definitely not fair to ourselves. And again, I'm going to add a layer to that, because what we are comparing is what we're seeing on the outside, right? We are seeing what's on the outside, what that person's output is. We have no idea what went into getting that output and what the other person's thinking is, but we're comparing their outside, what we can see to our inside, yeah, our feelings of self doubt and uncertainty and not knowing what we're doing, not knowing what the what the next step is, and feeling scared. We comparing our inner feelings to the person's outside. Look, you know, success

or Instagram after the whole journey,

right, right? So that's an another unfair thing we do to ourselves, and I think that that all adds to that feeling of imposter syndrome. And I think it's real. It's very real, you know? And I think something about I want to say here, when you've hit that space, maybe give yourself a pat on the back and say maybe you've earned it. I don't know how does that sound?

Yeah, no, I love that, right? You're taking yourself to another level. You're stretching yourself, you're setting yourself up for development, and you know, can be breakdowns along the way, but it sets us up for a break through.

Yeah, and that, it's completely normal. I think you said it earlier. It's part of the human experience. We don't grow without feeling a little bit uncertain, without feeling a little bit of the fear of, what if it doesn't work out, or what will people think? We don't grow without that. So to also give it its right place, you know, in in the whole frame and the whole picture, yes, yes.

And why we're talking about it today, Daphna, right? Because we want it to be more of a mainstream, normalized conversation that this is a human phenomenon. It happens in our journey of growth, if we're if, if we're taking on new challenges, if we're evolving, then there are going to be times that imposter syndrome, right? Yeah, comes up for us.

And I think the more we try to hide it and pretend that it's not there, the more of a disservice we're doing to ourselves, and the more it even comes up, even more, I think, yeah, the more we try to hide it, the more it's kind of in that do

I know both worked with leaders that talk about this loneliness that they feel in their work

days, right? And I think we mentioned a little bit before we started recording, this whole notion of loneliness at the top, and maybe that's a good place to start to say it's not only at the very, very top. We're not only talking about the loneliness that if you're sitting at the top of the apex as CEO, founder, or whatever it may be, that you will feel actually in every layer of the organization, when you're in charge of a team or a certain business unit or project, you might start to feel that loneliness. So maybe let's talk a little bit about what does this mean? What is this loneliness? So it can be at every layer of the organization, and it doesn't have to mean that you're only at the top. And that feeling of loneliness can be when you've made a transition, or when you are. Feeling that you're running something or in charge of a whole of lot of things, and all of a sudden people are looking at you, and people are looking to see, what do you think? What do you look like? What is your mood? So you start to have this awareness of needing to maybe be more planned or more aware, or more composed, more structured around how you're showing up?

Yes, I think this is important point Daphna, that it can happen at each of those transitions. We went from an individual contributor to a team leader. We're just a peer on the team, right? We're friendly with our teammates, and now we're the leader that got the management role right? Or now we're becoming a leader of leaders, or now we're a leader of the business, right? There's there's this responsibility, there's this sense of, I've got to know what to do here. People are looking to me. I can't have the same relationships that I had with these folks in the past, and it can bring with it a feeling of loneliness.

Yeah, you know, as you were talking, I was also thinking, that feeling of, it's all up to me, that that weight of responsibility, of actually, I'm in charge. If something goes wrong, it's all on me anyway, that is a big weight to carry, and that can feel very lonely, because who's going to really understand it to that level?

Well, the buck stops with me, right? So I, and only I am, the person who is ultimately responsible, right? You might have counterparts in your organization. There are other leaders in your organization, but you've got your team and your workload that you are responsible for.

I had a CEO that I worked with who would say to me often, he would say to me at the end of the day, I am the one losing sleep at night because of the business, and no one else. People are coming, and they're coming for a job, and they are, you know, getting paid for it, and at the end of the day, they can go home. And I think, and I do want to say, as we talking about this and trying to give a sense of what does this mean, it's not exactly true, necessarily, but it's the feeling that we hold with ourselves when we have a level of responsibility?

Well, definitely it's why I do what I do, because I know when leaders are doing their job well and they're caring about the people and they're caring about the work, there's a lot of doing and there's a lot of thinking and responsibility that comes with that as well. I think it's also we've alluded to this, but I want to call it out specifically Daphna, this persona, or this professionalism, or this This portrayal, that we've got it all together, that I'm your confident leader. You can believe in me. Please feel good about your work and the work that you're doing every

day, right? I guess that's the other side of the coin of that I'm the one who will lie awake at night worrying about the business. So you can be rest assured, I've got this I've got this handled. And then who do you talk to when you're feeling stressed, when you're feeling like actually, I don't know if I've got it handled. I don't know if I'm making the right decision. I don't know if this is the strategy to to follow that feels very lonely, because who do you talk to? Who can you really be vulnerable and open about some of your fears or uncertainty or worry?

Yeah. Daphna, when we were preparing for this a little bit because we like to have our conversations be unfiltered, don't over prepare, we were liking it to the parent child relationship, right? Of course, parents want to feel connected with their children, but there's just also this idea that parents don't put all of their adult burdens onto the child like they might know that mom's stressed, right? Or there's a lot going on with her work right now, right? Or my kids have known when my family members have passed away. Mom's dealing with grief right now. But there's, there's a certain level that you share that and you create that connection. And so sometimes with team leaders, it feels like, okay, team members, please tell me as much as you feel comfortable telling me, be open. I'm here to hear and then can't quite feel like they can do fully the same in return.

I love that you brought up the parenting analogy, because I think it's very relevant here. Because what's beautiful about parenting is that we maintain connection and a. Very deep and loving connection with our children, and yet we still maintain an element of we've got this we are a safe, secure space and home for our children. Very similarly with leaders who, for me, that brings in that whole paradox of, while we encourage leaders to be real and authentic and open and share what they can about what they're going through and how they're feeling, they need to do that with a sense of connection, because I think that's really important for the team, but also with a sense of, this is a safe place, and I've got this handled, and that's a little bit of a paradox here, because you can be open, but not totally open with absolutely everyone all the time. I think that's the distinction here. It's not like, Okay, I wear my heart on my sleeve wherever I go. It's actually be discerning about who, when, what and how, and that starts to build that kind of support system. And I know we don't really want to go there right now, because there's still quite a lot to discuss, but and we want to stay in that level of tension of what does this when you've had a hard day, or when you made a mistake, or you made the wrong decision, and there was a big what you put like an oopsie, or whatever, you know, failure, or whatever it was, something didn't work out the way you wanted. Find people that you can talk to about it. Because I think that's really, really important,

yes, and as leaders, you're going to have to probably design this, create it, yes, because this is a phenomenon loneliness at the top, because it doesn't get organically created for us.

So we gotta be don't wait for it. Yes, yeah.

Don't wait for it. Intentionally build this circle. It could be your counterparts. It could be leaders at your level. It could be other trusted leaders or mentors inside of your organization. Outside of your organization. It can be friends and family to

as well. Yeah, I don't know if I'm dating myself with this analogy, but okay, I call it the A Team. Did you ever watch The A Team? Yes. And you know how there were four of them, and each one had a very specific role and a very part, a specific part to play with their own personality and their own style. And I think you've got to I

don't remember it as well as you do. Daphna, I like this.

Okay, regardless, build your a team, your outstanding a team that's going to be different people for different purposes or different roles. So have your coach, have your trusted advisor, have your mentor, have your partner, have your all the people that are going to help you feel supported, develop and critically challenge your thinking when required, help you to just vent and offload if that's what you need, and share some of the emotional burdens. And you know, help you brainstorm to think through some of your very important decisions that you need to make.

Very well said, Daphna and I would add only that make sure at least one, maybe a couple of those folks, are ones that you can reach out to when you're feeling messy, when you're when you're really in the thick of it, you could be upset or have some emotion flowing in that moment. Who is someone that you can trust in those moments? Yeah, that know that that aren't going to think, oh, Amy's just a disaster. Well, I know that this is just a moment, yeah, right, and I can't support her in it,

you know, I think that as we're talking about this, and I'm getting the feeling that this is a difficult conversation, because I think there are two elements to this, and I know that a lot of the executives and CEOs that I work with have their a team in place. They've got a really good number of advisors. Yeah, that they will, yeah, really interesting. And not even, not even the board of directors or the official advisory board. It's an unofficial advisory board because they still have to maintain a certain image or level of composure and competence towards their own board. So it's people they can go to outside to discuss dilemmas such as hiring or decision making or strategy or anything like that. But that is very kind of professional and and expert level. And I'm just hearing some of my clients say, but I don't need. Therapy, and I don't need to talk about my emotions, and I don't need to, you know, so I'm saying sometimes it's important to have, like I said, the A Team. Have someone on your a team that is also that person that you can speak to when you are feeling down, as you said, when things haven't gone well, and you can just offload and share that without worrying about making a bad impression or what they're going to think about you. Yeah.

Or you can drop that mask selectively, exactly, selectively.

That's good intentionally, yeah, intentionally and selectively. And know that Simon Sinek, who's really, I love his work and his approach talks about people you can cry with, and he was incredibly open and vulnerable in the interview I heard with him, where he said he's got a few really good friends that he can pick up the phone and say, I just need to talk to you something happened, and I need to let off some steam, And I need to cry, and I know like bringing up the whole crying thing is going to generate, you know, other but show emotion.

Be able to show emotion exactly, of whatever kind

it is, yourself, and be real. And as you said, Let down that mask a little bit. Yeah, I

want to recap and then add one more these ways that we've been talking about shifting from isolation to connection. You've said, find your circle. Design it intentionally. Design that trust in our world. Drop the mass selectively. And then we'd also say, slow down.

I think that is key in the busyness of our day to day. It's so easy to just move on to the next thing and ignore what's going on and just stay busy.

Keep reacting, keep reacting, keep reacting. But are we checking in with ourselves? Because we need to do that to slow down and see where are we energetically? Do we? Do we feel like, Yeah, I think we want to make it clear Daphna that we are talking about leaders and leadership behaviors that can come from really great intentions, yeah, and it's really easy to spill over into being too controlling. Yes, yes. An example to start with could be we want to be prepared. We want to be on top of things. We want to make sure our meetings are really efficient and effective, yet we could spill over into controlling the discussion too tightly, cutting off any objections, right? Not letting any topics go off tangent ever, and we might be losing some richness in the conversations. That could emerge.

Yeah, and that actually makes me think about a conversation I recently had with two founders that I'm coaching at the moment, and they were asking me, why is it that we are the ones doing all the talking in the meetings? We have an executive committee meeting and no one is participating. It's just me and my co founder all the time, and I had to ask them to step back and think about it, because in their mind, it wasn't control. It was we stepping in because no one else is but why tributing? Yeah, why is no one else in? Why is no one else contributing? And it could be the over preparation, but I think in their case, it's under preparation, because they are holding all the ideas in their head. Everything is clear as day to them in their head, but they haven't shared it. They haven't structured it. So they've got all this stuff to download, and they're not really creating space and an opportunity for their leadership team to pitch in.

Yes, yes.

Hid den control here. Hidden control. Hidden control, right?

It could also be the person who feels like the responsibility, the ownership, stops with me. So if something's not working, I gotta jump in and figure it out. I've got to insert myself. I've got to grab that report and review it at the last

minute, right? I've got to be on top of the I've got to be on top of everything. Because if I'm not and the business fails, it's my responsibility. So it's holding everything and being, wanting to be so on top of it that there's no room for error, experimentation, other people to come in.

Yes, yes, yeah, that could also be a leader that's holding all the decision making. Yes, right? Like I need to be responsible. But. I need to make those decisions right. And of course, that can cause more about the I know.

I know I actually want to just just dwell on this a little bit longer, because I think this is such an important one, because I call it the bottleneck for decision making. And I often ask the leaders that I work with, where are you the bottleneck in decision making, because when we're talking about letting go, and I think this is a topic that's very closely related to this control, there's control versus letting go. And when you ask leaders or tell them or share with the suggest that they should be letting go more, they often don't even know what that means. And it goes beyond the delegation of tasks, which they've already mastered at this stage. It's really about delegation of authority, delegation of leadership. What kind of decisions are you actually willing to let others make, even though you're not sure what this is? You know, what will come out of it? What will they do with it?

Not just letting others do, but letting others decide as well.

Yeah, yeah. I've got another CEO who will not have any new hire coming to the business without them approving it first, which is crazy. You can imagine bottleneck time, energy process gets lengthened. So that is one thing recruitment, hand offer, let others at certain levels, you know, let other people make those decisions.

Yeah, a couple more examples to share. Daphna, because I think here we want every leader to see themselves in this that very well intentioned, non micromanaging managers can get into situations where they're over controlling for very good intentions, yeah, but it, but it, but it slips over into that other side. Another example can be wanting to be a data driven leader, decision maker, right? We got to have the data. We got to have the data right. And that can all that can lead to we got we got to drill in here. We got to get this much more data. We got to get this much more data. And Daphna, we're moving into a lot of new spheres in our workplaces, and sometimes there's not the data describe.

Sometimes the data you need or want just doesn't exist in the entirety that you would like it to be in. For sure, for sure.

Yeah, yeah. Sometimes leaders want to stay connected. Want to make sure that they understand everything that's going on in their team or in their division, and that can lead to wanting to be copied on everything, wanting to be in the know on every conversations, every interaction, actions that are being taken, and that can begin to feel like too much. Sometimes leaders are like, I have to know what to tell my boss when they come by and ask for an update,

right, right, right? And that is under the guise of, I have to be on top of it. If I don't know what's going on, then I'm not on top of it. But is that true? I mean, we're going to look at that like, what are the fears and and things driving it? But I do want to add one more, and that is measuring worth through productivity, and that if I'm busy, if I'm busy all the time, and I'm involved and I'm know what's going on, then I'm doing a good job, you know? So my worth as a leader, as a contributor to this organization, is validated, but to

the organization I'm contributing, I need to be doing.

I'm busy, and I know that with that, there's also the staying in that zone of excellence. We know what we're good at. We very good at it. This is why we were hired. But as you kind of rise in the levels of leadership, you don't need to prove your excellence in those areas anymore. They need. You need to be evolving into more strategic thinking, into leading and getting things done through others, and that looks different. And yeah, there's also,

I've had this conversation with a number of leaders Daphna, who are resistant to delegate, right? Right? And actually, some have admitted,

like, I have control issues, right? Like, a high level of quality, I want to make sure this continues to get done at a high level of quality.

And also that fear, just going back to fears for a moment of, if I delegate all of this, like, are people going to wonder what I'm doing? Then we are, we are not developing those around us. We are impacting their motivation. If we jump in at the last minute and we are taking over or we are over testing right then, then my team member can be thinking. Why you don't trust me to have this set up, right?

So I think the one thing that's coming up for me as you're talking is this whole concept that I work with, which is, are we creating dependency or building capacity? Because I think that when you are always in charge, always in control, and really delegating tasks, you are building dependency, because at the end of the day, nothing can move forward without you. But when you're starting to understand what letting go can do and really letting go of some of those decisions and authority and leadership, you are building capacity, and you building a layer of leadership that can start to operate independently, which means that you get to do an essay this to the senior leaders and CEOs that I work with you are paid the big bucks to drive forward, to bring up the big Vision and ideas. And how many times do CEO CEOs feel frustrated that they don't feel they can move forward at the pace that they want to because they are constantly being pulled down into fighting fires, managing crises, you know, digging in the weeds and correcting mistakes. You want to be able to take that level up, but you can't take that little level up until you learn to let go, let go and allow people to make mistakes, absolutely.

And what that does Daphna is that engages your team and your workforce. Feel that part of something. Dare I say, we are in an engagement crisis right now, right? And if we take the decisions from people. If we jump in and fix in the last minute, then we are not giving them autonomy. We're not giving them ownership. And that creates engagement, and that creates care, right? If I get to own this part of what we do, and I get to make the decisions inside of that. I show up and I feel a different way about my work. I'm more engaged. And this is what we need if we're going to move forward with velocity,

right, right? Exactly. So that's the cost. The cost is disengagement from your team, not feeling like you trust them, and they don't feel empowered to actually make decisions. They don't feel like their job is meaningful or impactful, because they become kind of just the doers or the implementers. Yeah, and I think I also want to add the cost to you, because understand that the more in control you are, the more at risk you are for exhaustion, burnout and and even if we don't get to that level, it's like the level of stimulation and creative thinking that you actually really want to be operating at. You can't. You don't ever feel like you can really get there, and that's something that is a cost to you.

Yeah, even if, as I've been talking about the examples of control and what we do, like those of us who are watching a video version of this, right? Like I'm leaning forward in my chair, I'm clenching up my stomach, I'm gripping my my hands right like that's what it feels like. On top of all of that, it creates tension and stress in our bodies, and for some it can, it can feel uncomfortable to sit back and let go,

make things happen, right? I love where you've taken us. I love where you've taken us because the head, notice your body, notice what's going on in your body, right? What you're describing is, what does it feel like in our body when we want to be in control? There's a tightness, there's a gripping, there's a tension in our body, and creativity and innovation does not come from tension and control. We know there's a reactivity that happens when we're in tension, right? We're much more in reactive space, like I mentioned earlier, that firefighting mode, managing crises, managing problems, sometimes can give us a huge sense of satisfaction and adrenaline. But that's not where our creative thinking space lies. And I think as leaders, we need to be thinking of, how do we break boundaries, how do we forge ahead? How do we move forward? We want to do that level of creative thinking that we can't do. We're in, we're in the tension of that control. So I love bringing the body in and noticing what that feels like in the body, yes,

and getting more comfortable with sitting back and being curious, like, Okay, wait a minute. This initially feels off topic for me, but my team members. Guys who are great at doing this work are initiating this different kind of conversation. Maybe there's something here, maybe there's an idea. Maybe there's something to see. Yeah, right. Can I have this let this conversation be and see what emerges, rather than always controlling the conversation.

Thank you for listening to the Courage of a Leader podcast. If you'd like to further explore this episode's topic, please reach out to me through the courage of a leader website at www.courageofaleader.com I'd love to hear from you. Please take the time to leave a review on iTunes that helps us expand our reach and get more people fully stepping into their leadership potential. Until next time, be bold and be brave, because you've got the Courage of a Leader.