LISTENER STORY: Managing bullying in a psychology internship and coming out the other side (with Tess Philip)

[00:00:05] Bronwyn: Hey, mental workers. You're listening to the Mental Work Podcast, the podcast about working in mental health for early career mental health workers. As always, I'm your host, Bronwyn Milkins, and today we are talking about workplace bullying and persistence in the face of adversity.

Maybe you've felt like giving up during your provisional psych journey? In this episode, we'll explore what happens when early career mental health workers are exposed to toxic workplace environments, and how you can reclaim your identity, stay anchored to your purpose, and keep going even when it feels impossible. We'll also talk about the power of meaningful work, how creative projects can sustain you and what recovery can look like when you emerge from a challenging chapter.

Here to help us out with this topic is our guest today, Tess Philip. Hey Tess.

[00:00:49] Tess: Hey Bronwyn, thanks for having me.

[00:00:51] Bronwyn: It's such a pleasure to have you. Could you please start off by telling listeners who you are?

[00:00:56] Tess: Sure. My name's Tess Philip, and I am a psychologist, living and working on Darkinjung Country, the central coast of New South Wales. I'm the founder of Well Creative Minds, an award-winning NDIS psychosocial support provider, uh, that provides peer support services and more recently psychological services.

[00:01:16] Bronwyn: Amazing. So you approached me to come onto the podcast and I was delighted to hear your story. And I just wanna take a few steps back before we get to the workplace bullying, because I think you've had a bit of a long career in mental health, even before you came to be a psychologist. Is that right?

[00:01:31] Tess: Yes, that's correct.

[00:01:33] Bronwyn: Yeah. So can you tell us about how your career in mental health started out?

[00:01:37] Tess: Yeah, sure. I'll go back a little bit to just give a bit of context. So I-, my first job out of school, I worked as a remedial massage therapist. That's not mental health related, but I quickly discovered that. I was actually helping people on the massage bed. They would just open up and talk about their problems . I was like, I think I've got a bit of a skill here. I might go and do further study. And that was back in 2010, that was quite a long time ago.

Um, and I then went and studied, I did a life coaching course, realised that I needed a little bit more, knowledge. I was quite interested in studying psychology for quite a long time, but it wasn't until I, I stumbled across a job working in reception for private practise working amongst other psychologists, which inspired me further. So then I took the leap and started studying psychology and that's how it all started.

[00:02:39] Bronwyn: That's awesome. And so you did your undergrad in psychology?

[00:02:44] Tess: Yes. I did a degree first in a Bachelor's of Business and marketing, and then, so I think when you have a degree, as a mature age student, I think you can do the advanced diploma, which is like equivalent to a three year undergrad, but it's still a six year pathway, like you're still doing the full pathway.

And it was in 2020 when I became an independent support worker. Um, so I was working out in the community with NDIS participants who were needing support with everyday activities, building capacity... I really loved that work and it gave me an opportunity to expose myself, um, amongst, a population of people that were really struggling. And it was a very rewarding career for me.

So I was doing that alongside my study and then I kind of just went with the flow of it and an opportunity arose where I was able to build my team and it just so happened that it was at the same time as starting my internship and I probably naively kind of was like, yeah, I'll do it all! I'll just dive straight into it and build a team and do my internship. How hard can it be?

[00:04:00] Bronwyn: I completely relate to doing all the things all at once and thinking that you can handle it. I think it was like two years ago where I did two university degrees simultaneously whilst running my own private practise and doing something else. I think I had like two jobs at the same time as well, and I was like, yeah, this makes sense. how did you find that worked out for you doing everything at once?

[00:04:18] Tess: I don't think I realised at the time just how difficult it would be. Running the psychosocial disability support business, it wasn't my first business. So doing the business side of things, I found it came natural it, I think it was just trying to do that and then learn a whole another profession. So it was like, yes, the business was successful and I was doing okay with that.

I almost feel like I did things completely in reverse to how people in psychology do things. So usually when you're a psychologist, you've been a psychologist for a while, and then you go out into and start your business. I kind of did things the opposite way. So although I had a successful business, I felt like I was at the starting point all over again as a baby psychologist, just learning, um, as a provisional.

So I think learning a whole new career and profession and needing guidance with that and being dependent on that support, I found that really challenging. I think the internship in itself is hard enough and then when you've got a growing business on the side, and then trying to navigate workplace bullying on top of that... it became a lot.

I don't know how I managed to persevere. Like I look back and I can reflect on how resilient I was and I was able to find strength to pull through... but yeah, I'm not gonna deny how challenging and how tough it was.

[00:05:53] Bronwyn: Thank you for that really open reflection, it's really interesting to hear both sides. And one thing that stands out for me as well is when we start out in the psychology profession, we are starting at the start. So it can be a bit like, oh my gosh, I, there's so much to learn, I don't know everything.

But then for you, you had this interesting dynamic of also being, uh, a leader like you were running your own business so you could feel competent in that area and maybe, I don't know, was it difficult for you to feel competent in one area and then in the other area be like, oh my gosh, there's so much to learn?

[00:06:26] Tess: Imposter syndrome crept up a lot. Throughout that whole period I was working with a psychologist, who helped me to be like, "Hey, you know, like well done for doing what you do. Like, it's amazing, like what you're doing". But it was really hard to feel that at the time because there was a lot of conflicting messages.

So on one hand, yes, I had a thriving business, you know, a great team, who felt supported, things were going well. But then on the other hand, yeah, there were a lot of areas as a provisional psychologist where I was getting mixed messages and it made me feel quite incompetent and question my career choices, or did I make the right choice here? Like what am I doing? Like should I just give up on being a psychologist and just focus on being a business owner, which I'm good at that, but maybe I'm not so good at being a psychologist.

[00:07:18] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I know a lot of your story involves coming out the other side and connecting with your vision and something to ground you and push you through. Maybe let's just connect now with the bullying aspect, because that sounds like it was a particularly challenging part of your journey. I'm just wondering what that was like for you?

[00:07:39] Tess: Yeah, so in total I worked at six different workplaces over a two and a half year period, and it sort of seemed to be like at the fourth or fifth month mark, something kind of happened and the rug was pulled from beneath me. And it was like, almost like an ambush, like I felt that's how it felt because everything seemed to be going well until it wasn't. And then suddenly it was like, yep, this is not working anymore, you need to leave.

And so I, I think I naturally developed some sort of type of vigilance. Um, and I spoke a lot with my psychologist, she helped me to unpack it all, but the theme that kept coming up was, what am I doing wrong? Like, it must be me because how can this happen to me consecutively?

[00:08:30] Bronwyn: Yeah.

[00:08:30] Tess: Like one job after the next, all like similar kind of situations, but different. But I think what I noticed, and I'm probably sounding very confusing right now, because I was quite confused at the time, I couldn't understand what was going on because, I mean, when you're a provisional psychologist, you rely heavily on your senior psychologist and your employer to kind of guide you or tell you what's what's right or wrong. But I think there's also a difference between being a competent psychologist, like being very good at being a psychologist and good at what you do as a clinician, um, versus being an employer or managing a team. Like those two things can be very different. And as an employer myself and being a business owner, I was like, this is, I just noticed a lot of unethical practises going on. And, yeah, it was just very hard for me to rationalise or come to terms with, like understanding why certain things were happening. Like why was I being treated this way? Other people were being treated that way.

At the moment, I'm thinking about my experiences now and it feels like such a long time ago and when I talked-, when I spoke to my psychologist about it, she almost, she was describing it like being continuously dumped in a wave. So like in the ocean, when you get dumped by a wave over and over again, you come up for air and then another wave and then come up for air, and that's how it felt for two and a half years.

[00:10:08] Bronwyn: Wow, that's really intense. It sounds incredibly challenging. It does sound very confusing, and it's not how we expect the internship to go. We expect to be supported, accepted, guided, and we don't expect to have bullying or mistreatment come our way.

I'm just wondering, for any listeners who might be in a similar situation and they don't know what the dynamics are of the bullying, could you give us a few themes of what it involved like? One thing I heard from your story was that you noticed you were being treated differently to other employees, like that kind of thing.

[00:10:44] Tess: For me, I had worked predominantly in private practises and a few of those places were only a, it was like just a small private practise. So for example, one place I was the only other psychologist besides the owner, and I hear this a lot and I've also heard it in a few of your podcast episodes, where the employer is also, the supervisor is also HR is also is wearing multiple hats, and when there's that conflict of interest, it makes the, the, the dynamic very difficult. It makes it very hard for the supervisee to trust that they have their best interests at heart.

And what I found in my experience was I'd rock up to supervision expecting to talk about a case and work through a challenging client case, but then it might be about billable hours, what are you doing to inc- like increase your billable hours. Or it's about admin or, something to do with the business. And yeah, I found that really hard.

[00:11:46] Bronwyn: Yeah, so a lack of clarity about which role the person is in, and I guess it not being aligned with what you need in that moment.

[00:11:55] Tess: Yeah. Yeah. I think, I also had in the progress reports... it was very critical. Tess lacks communication skills. Tess. I don't know, like lots of, um, very negative feedback. And I think when that's not balanced with positive feedback or actually some guidance or a plan of how you can improve in areas, then you know, it, it's just bullying. It's just, it's not productive.

[00:12:21] Bronwyn: Well it doesn't sound like it matches up with your own assessment of your skills. Um, so like you probably wouldn't say that you completely lack communication skills, so it sounds like it wasn't aligned with that. Um, but it also sounded like maybe some of these comments were the first time you had heard this, like air quote feedback.

[00:12:37] Tess: Sometimes, sometimes not. So for example, one employer gave me a call and was like, this is just not working out, X, Y, Z happened, I've gotta let you go, sorry. I'll let the clients know that you've found another job. Like, this just came out of nowhere. Like there was no discussion leading up to it or, sometimes there wasn't even any like indication that I was doing anything wrong.

[00:13:00] Bronwyn: So it was a huge shock.

[00:13:01] Tess: Yeah, and this happened quite a lot. The last place that I was let go from, I think the manager had emailed me and said, oh, let's have a meeting on Friday with no context, and when I asked what's the meeting about? It's like, oh, to discuss your performance. And then that triggered some anxiety in me. I was like, oh my gosh.

[00:13:21] Bronwyn: absolutely.

[00:13:22] Tess: Like what am I doing? Like what? Like, oh, and like, I just racked my brain and then I, you know, I had made, um, some good, relationships with other colleagues and I was like, have you noticed if I've done anything wrong? Is my, you know, is my report, are my reports, all right. Can you have a look at my notes? Like I was kind of really, uh, trying to find like, you know, areas that, that they wanted to discuss.

And then anyway, on the Friday, I think I had a quiet week 'cause it's, the school holidays had just started and I was only just working with kids at the time, and they're like, oh, you know, we have to let you go because you haven't been able to maintain, your billable hours, we don't think you're gonna finish your internship in time and we can't provide all the supervision you require.

I actually took that as motivation. I took that away, I was like, right, like, I'm going to finish my internship by the end of this year. I don't care what anybody else says. So like, I just did all I could to just pull my boots back up, get out there, find another workplace. Found an external supervisor to help me, who was amazing, really, empowered me and helped build up my confidence. And two week, two weeks later, after being let go of that job, I actually went to Brisbane to win an a, a business award, a nationally recognised business award, which you, you can't win unless you meet certain criteria or certain targets.

So I was like, I can maintain clients, like they're not giving me the client so I can't build a caseload, but I knew that that wasn't my fault because here I am winning an an award, and then a month after that I sat for my exam, passed my exam, and three months later I completed my internship.

[00:15:04] Bronwyn: Woohoo!

[00:15:05] Tess: So I was like, don't tell me that I can't do it, I'll show you. So I kind of, I, I did use that as confidence, but at the time, like it really, it really stung.

[00:15:16] Bronwyn: Well, yeah, because one thing I'm thinking is like, um, how did you not internalise these messages? Because it did sound like you were getting some feedback that if, if that was said to me, I would probably go cry in a corner, . So it sounds like it hurt at the time, but then you are able to find external evidence that was contrary to what they were saying.

[00:15:36] Tess: Yes. And I think that helped me a lot to get through that because, I think as a provisional psychologist or when you're in the thick of it in the internship, it can become your whole world. Like you can get sucked into this vortex of this is who I am now, this is, this is my life. But there's so much, there's so much more to your identity and who you are outside of being provisional and you, and I think people forget how much that their life experience or what they've done prior to getting there is, is valuable.

These workplaces or these employers, they don't know you like in that way, like your friends do, your partner, your family, uh, maybe even other employees, like see other parts of you that make up who you are. Whereas when you are kind of just relying on, or allowing the employer or the internal supervisor to tell you what you can or can't do, or, determine your, competence or confidence within yourself, when you're just relying on that, it can really, make your perception smaller and it's misconstrued.

[00:16:48] Bronwyn: Yeah, it sounds like having another supervisor who could provide a more realistic and accurate perception of yourself was helpful as well. Could you just tell us a bit more about that?

[00:17:00] Tess: I think that having an external supervisor who isn't part of the workplace, so there's no interest there for them, , they're, they're just there to support you as a supervisor should. I don't know if that's because like you are, you know, paying them for a service that they're delivering, like, which makes a difference, but it just changes the whole dynamic.

And I've had external supervisors over, over time, , and I wish that I stuck with external supervisors, but unfortunately I wasn't provided that opportunity, like that last workplace that I was telling you about, you know, there was a number of directors who were all my supervisors, they're just allocated to you, so whether they're are primary or secondary, but they were all business owners of the company as well.

[00:17:49] Bronwyn: So there's a conflict there.

[00:17:50] Tess: Yeah.

[00:17:51] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I guess there's an empower imbalance there as well. It's like, is what I'm going to tell you in supervision, gonna come back and bite me?

[00:17:58] Tess: Yeah. When I think back on when I was let go, I think a couple of weeks prior to that time, I took my first sick day, I think I took a couple of sick days. Unfortunately, I had COVID and then I had gastro, and so it was like two consecutive Fridays off or something. And I remember the, the boss emailing me and saying we're concerned that you're feeling overwhelmed, or, you're not coping 'cause you've taken so many days off, or something like that. And I'm like, I'm, I was sick. Like, it's almost like you're not allowed to show any vulnerability or it's discouraged almost to, advocate for self care or to look after yourself. And when you do, it's like, oh, you're not doing very well, are you? And I, I just found that really odd.

And I think it was within the same week, um, I had just handed in a case case report and it took me some, it took me some time to get it right because it's, you know, very structured and there's, you know, AHPRA has its, formats or whatever, and, um, at that time I had never used Grammarly. I wasn't use using AI, so I was making some grammar mistakes or spelling mistakes, and my supervisor was like, oh, well it looks like you've got a bit of a written expression disorder.

[00:19:15] Bronwyn: Oh! Okay?

[00:19:18] Tess: I was just like, are you, are you kidding me? Like, and I said, what does that mean? Does that mean that you need to report me to AHPRA? Like, what? Like, she's like, oh no, it might resolve itself after a couple months, let's see how you go. And anyway, like, I think I was let go already, like within three weeks. So there was almost like these, there was like these things that were leading up to it that I found quite odd.

[00:19:41] Bronwyn: I guess what I'm hearing from that is negative assumptions, um, and pathologizing, I guess using pathological language for things that are just, you know, we all make spelling mistakes. Um, we all make grammatical mistakes in our writing and it doesn't necessarily mean that we have a learning disability. I guess like it feels like you weren't being seen as you were, but rather through a negative lens.

[00:20:05] Tess: Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:06] Bronwyn: Which I guess is unhelpful and it's good for listeners to be aware of as well because I guess that can happen as well. Have you ever like heard of like the halo effect as well?

[00:20:15] Tess: Uh, yes I have. But remind me.

[00:20:18] Bronwyn: Okay, so it's when I guess somebody receives a bit of positive information about you and then all your subsequent actions are seen through like the positive halo. So it's like they see you opening the door for somebody in public and they're like, oh, Tess is such a great person, everything you do subsequently, it's like, that's because Tess is a great person. But it can also work in reverse in that like, you make a spelling mistake and it's like Tess is a bit clumsy and then everything you do subsequently is like, oh, that's because Tess is a bit clumsy.

[00:20:47] Tess: Yeah. Yep. That makes sense.

[00:20:49] Bronwyn: Yeah, and I don't know, it just sounds like there's something of an element there in your experiences as well.

[00:20:55] Tess: I mean, I think there's some, there could be some truth to that, 'cause I remember in another workplace where the supervisor slash employer said to me, oh, like I just expected you to be a lot further than where you are. I think I was maybe like 12 months into my internship at that time, um, and I had already gone through like three different internship places at the time, so I never felt like I could settle where I was and actually make progress or like, like gain momentum. And so I, I did, I did feel behind and I told her that at the beginning, I said, I was very transparent and very open. I was like, look, I need to work on my confidence. I'm not feeling like very competent in these areas. This is where I need help with.

Um, and I, I think that she didn't listen to that because when I wasn't meeting her expectations, it was like, I thought you were like a lot further along, like, I thought you were a lot more competent than you are. Almost like it was disappointing to her, but I was like, I told you, like I'm not, I'm still working on my clinical skills. I'm actually not that far along. I might come across as confident in some ways because of my experience, but clinically, I need help, please help me.

[00:22:11] Bronwyn: Yeah. So it's like you're saying it directly and still not being seen for where you're actually at and helped with that.

[00:22:17] Tess: Yeah.

[00:22:18] Bronwyn: Yeah. So Tess, again, this all sounds very challenging. You mentioned earlier that you were just motivated to keep going. Was there a purpose or vision that helped you with this?

[00:22:28] Tess: Yeah. So I always believe that when you are anchored to a purpose, it almost is like a guiding compass. Like it will, when you feel, when you have a purpose that you can anchor to, like, it will, it will guide you along and remind you of why you're doing something, um, even if, even when it gets hard. When we're kind of sort of drifting away from that purpose, it's a lot harder to then anchor into something to drive you forward.

For a very long time, my purpose had always been like, I wanna be able to help people. I knew that I had a strength and I knew I had, um, certain skills. I've always been good in building relationships and rapport with others and, working well with other people. Like I knew where my strengths and skills were, and I wanted to really use that to the best of my ability, and I've always been drawn to being a psychologist. Having that purpose of becoming a registered psychologist and being just very goal oriented and determined it, yeah, it really, it really helped me.

[00:23:33] Bronwyn: Was there anything that helped in protecting your wellbeing during the time? Like during all these internships, like non-psychology work and outlets for you?

[00:23:41] Tess: Yeah. Having, um, a creative outlet, and pursuing like creative projects has really helped me to stay connected to my purpose and my overall vision and not become burnt out. I think when you put all your energy into one thing or one thing sort of defines who you are, um, with anything really, it can affect your whole being, it can affect your wellbeing.

 For me, I think having that creative outlet really helped me. So I love writing and I love, um, yeah, I love just getting into my creative zone. So, I've always been creative, I've always been an entrepreneur, it's been in my blood for a long time. I'm a big believer that creativity is important for wellbeing and mental health. Um, the evidence shows this. There's a psychologist that I can never say the name, I can never pronounce the name of, but he created the flow state.

[00:24:37] Bronwyn: I know who you're talking about and I don't know his name as well, how to pronounce it, but I can see it pronounced in my head.

[00:24:44] Tess: Yeah, me too.

[00:24:45] Bronwyn: Csikszentmihalyi..., but I know exactly who you're talking about. Go on.

[00:24:51] Tess: And so he explains that like why we can feel so content when we're in our creative zone, when we are fully immersed, um, in that authentic space, free to express ourselves, it can have psychological effects, positive psychological effects, and I didn't come to realise that or learn about that until much later on. I became a blogger in 2013, I was writing a lot because I just felt like I wanted to express myself in that creative way. And I didn't realise at the time, like actually it was having a positive psychological effect on myself. Um, and, you know, I just, and I can, it was during COVID and I was able to connect with a community of like-minded people and I was just like in that flow state.

And yeah, the evidence shows that it does nurture this sense of togetherness and encourages critical thinking and curiosity, uh, boosts confidence and motivation and fosters connection. Um, and I was kind of doing that before I actually realised there was evidence to support the effects of being in that creative zone . And so that's where the name Well Creative Minds comes from.

[00:26:02] Bronwyn: That's awesome. That is so cool and really good to hear, and it stood out for me when you said it can boost confidence as well, because one thing in hearing your story is like your resilience. Because when you say I had six different internships, I'm like, oh gosh, didn't she just wanna give up?

[00:26:19] Tess: Trust me, I did! I did, but I was like a bulldog, like I was just like, I am not letting you like stop me. Like I'll show you. And like I just, yeah, I just found it, found that drive within me and perhaps it was just this, you know, having that deep sense of purpose and having that drive and being connected to my, like my creative zone of genius or whatever it is, or just... Uh, everything that we've spoken about, there was just something with inside me that was like, you know what? I'm not gonna let these people have power and influence over me. In three years, who are they gonna be to me? Like, what, what significance, what role will they play in my life in 3, 4, 5, 10 years? Like, I'm not gonna let them crush my dreams or stop me in achieving what it is that I wanna achieve, because at the end of the day, they're not gonna mean anything to me.

[00:27:16] Bronwyn: Totally, good on you! I think that's really cool. And I think another thing that stands out is that, yeah, you didn't put all of your identities in one basket, so you weren't like "everything about me is the psychologist". You were having these other outlets that gave you a sense of confidence and purpose and wellbeing, and it sounds like that helped as well, because some of the feedback, does does sound like it was quite crushing, but you were able to sustain your self-esteem through these other identities and other valued activities.

[00:27:49] Tess: Yeah, absolutely. I think you've explained it a lot more clearly than I was able to explain it.

[00:27:56] Bronwyn: Sometimes hearing it, it's like it's just a different like thing, feedback, but you explained it really well, as well, and you lived it and you came through it, so you know, that's the more impressive thing.

[00:28:07] Tess: Oh, thanks, Bronwyn. Yeah, I think, and I think also like when you are a provisional psychologist, or for me it felt like shackles on my ankles and I was like just, I just felt bound. Um, and then as soon as I became a registered psychologist, it was like I was free of those shackles. And then I, I found all these other psychologists that were doing their own thing and being true to themselves and, you know, creating their own path. I mean, Bronwyn, you're an example of that. Like you are someone who just, you know, you've been through a lot yourself and challenges, but you've been able to like create a path for you that feels right for you, for you, and do things the way that you've been, that you wanna do things.

And I think, when you're in your internship, it's like you're kind of, like bound within their methodologies or like their way of doing things. And you think, at the time because you dunno any different yet, um, that's just the way that you're supposed to do things. And it wasn't until I became registered that I was like, hang on a second, like I can be creative and I can have these other layers to me, it doesn't make me less, clinically professional or you know, it doesn't make me any less than my peers because this is who I am. It actually enhances, my, skillset.

[00:29:33] Bronwyn: That's really well said. And I think it makes an excellent point in that during the provisional training, there's a number of things you have to tick off and a number of areas you have to get practise in. Like you have to get practise with kids and older adults, and you have to do assessments that might not be what you're necessarily interested in. So it resonates with me when you say the shackles are off, when you gain general registration, because it is, it's like, oh, I don't have to do assessments if I don't wanna.

[00:29:58] Tess: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it was like, oh, what I have choice now. And it was almost like this sense of freedom and autonomy and just like I didn't have a supervisor or an employer like checking in on me every single day, like kind of micromanaging or watching my every move and the way I speak or the way I do this... i, I had the freedom to like just kind of become the psychologist that I want to become.

And I think we, we don't see that, we don't see the light at the end of the tunnel when we're stuck in it. And I want, I guess I want to share with the listeners that hang in there, do the best that you can, because things will get better and there is a reward at the end of the tunnel. There's light at the end of the tunnel, and it will be all worth it.

[00:30:46] Bronwyn: It's a really nice message, and again, I think it highlights an additional challenge that I've just picked up, because, you know, you're an entrepreneur, you, it sounds like you have a really creative mindset and you are quite independent, it really doesn't sound like the internship micromanagement was a suitable style for you. So it's just another challenge that I feel like was present for you.

[00:31:06] Tess: Yeah, I mean, so the last workplace, um, that I found where I finished my internship, yeah, I'm still working there. It's a great place to work. It helped me regain my confidence. I found support with a lovely bunch of supervisors and team culture... i, I'm still there a couple of days, days a week.

I think there are some really great places and great workplaces. I don't know, just sometimes it feels like they're rare to come by or like, it's hard to find.

[00:31:36] Bronwyn: It does feel like that, doesn't it? Um, and it's like, I don't know if, like, I'm biased because I get a lot of emails and stuff from people who tell me all the bad things, so I'm like, oh, am I just hearing the bad things? But like, just anecdotally, it, feels like it's less than it should be with the amount of good workplaces that are out there. Maybe that's a fair statement to say.

[00:31:54] Tess: Yeah. Yeah, it was really, it was really odd when I went to that um, place, like when I found that workplace, 'cause I was almost like waiting for the penny to drop or I was waiting for something to happen or someone not to be happy with me about something, or I'd go into supervision just waiting to be scolded about something, and it wasn't the case at all. In fact, my colleagues were like, "Hey, like you should be proud of yourself. Like you are a lot more competent than you think ".

[00:32:18] Bronwyn: That's fantastic. I'm really glad to hear that. So, what do things look like for you now? So you're working in this private practise it sounds like, how do you feel about yourself? How are you feeling about your practise?

[00:32:30] Tess: Look, I think I, I, I'm still working on the confidence. If you don't have anything to work on, then like you're not developing, you're not learning. And I think that never stops . I still have my business, Well Creative Minds. It's going through a few changes at the moment. I'm still working, public health, so a couple days a week. So I'm still kind of doing a few bits and pieces here and there, but I've definitely found my tribe or been able to surround myself with people I admire and look up to and inspire me, and, it's made all the difference.

[00:33:03] Bronwyn: It's really inspiring to hear that you feel connected to like-minded people, people who uplift you, people who can help with that, developing confidence, um, as you continue to go along. So it's really positive to hear and I'm really happy for you.

 Tess, it's been a real pleasure to speak with you and hear about your story. I think you described it really well. You took us through the low lights and you took us through the highlights as well, and gave us some key things to think about. What do you hope most that listeners will take away from our conversation today?

[00:33:33] Tess: You're not alone, that there have been others before you that have travelled a similar path. And I wanna encourage listeners to know that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, to give it your best go and to, take criticism or, you know, negative comments with a grain of salt because it's not gonna define the psychologist that you are developing into. It's important to be kind to yourself along your journey, and to remember that it does get better, everything's gonna be fine, everything's gonna work out.

[00:34:09] Bronwyn: I think a lot of people will need to hear that because like he said, it can feel like there is no light, so it's good to know that there is a light, you can come through, there is people who can support you, there are workplaces that can be good, yeah.

[00:34:22] Tess: And to be kind and gentle with yourself. I think we're already, like, as psychologists we're so critical and you know, we're already kind of like that Type-A perfectionist personality, so when we do get negative feedback, it can feel really personal and feel like an attack and it, and bring us down. We can beat ourselves down, but, you know, you're more than that and that's why it's important to surround yourself with people who do know you so that you can be reminded of why you're doing what you're doing and be reminded of your strengths and, and qualities that make you unique.

[00:35:02] Bronwyn: Oh, beautiful. Well, thank you so much Tess. It's, it's been really good to have you on the podcast. Thanks for coming on.

[00:35:08] Tess: Thanks so much, Bronwyn.

[00:35:10] Bronwyn: If listeners wanna learn more about you or get in touch, where can they find you?

[00:35:14] Tess: So listeners can find me on Instagram. I hang out the most on Instagram and my handle is Thrive Well with Tess, or my business' page is at Well Creative Minds. Um, for the more professional folk they can find me on LinkedIn as well, um, my name's Tess Phillip on LinkedIn.

[00:35:33] Bronwyn: Awesome, great. Thanks so much, Tess.

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