Transitioning 30+ Years of Military Service into an Elevated Leadership Philosophy with Maj. Gen. Todd McCaffrey

Welcome to Inspiring People and Places where we interview national leaders in the architectural, engineering, construction, and development industry in an effort to educate, innovate, and inspire industry professionals to disrupt the status quo, improve their project teams, and steward public and private investments more effectively. I'm your host, BJ Kramer, president and CEO of MCFA. And today's guest, we were talking before the show, is a little bit outside the industry, but I think right on target for our audience. I'd love to welcome to the show Major General Todd McCaffrey. Sir, how are you?

Hey, BJ. Thanks. It's great to be with you. I appreciate the opportunity.

It's great to have you. I'm gonna I'm gonna touch on your bio here real quick for the audience. Major General McCaffrey is a retired US Army Major General with over thirty four years of service culminating as the Chief of Staff of US Africa Command. Kinda curious about how that that job was, sir. After his military retirement, Todd was the University of South Carolina senior director of strategic partnership for government and military programs where he focused on assisting the university integrate and expand its portfolio of defense and other national security related research efforts.

He is involved in a number of things through McCaffrey Consulting, his consulting firm. He is involved in some non profit work. He is a graduate of the US Military Academy at West Point. Go Army, beat Navy. Go Army.

And has a master's degree in economics from the Colorado School of Mines and National Security Studies from US Army War College. And he lives in Columbia, South Carolina. So before the show, were talking a little bit outside the industry, know, quote architect engineering construction industry and I said to General McCaffrey, I'm in the people industry and I think that's where this conversation is gonna go. Sir, you've got a ton of leadership experience. Tell us a little bit about your journey from West Point many moons ago to to US Africa Command to University of South Carolina and and kind of the transition that you were mentioning that you're kind of in right now.

Yeah, Vijay. Great. Thanks. Well, first of all, thanks very much for having me on. I certainly do appreciate the opportunity.

Yeah. We share a common background at West Point. It's it's a it's a great institution to to hail from. You know, the funny thing is my first choice though was Naval Academy. It's funny as I grew up as a kid, wanted to go to the Naval Academy, never got in, went to college for a year.

Somebody told me I should fly to West Point. I did. And probably the best decision I ever made and frankly, it's like I've always been beat Navy since then.

So two quick comments I have to I hit you also, being from the Philadelphia area for some reason, we're all... We all get pulled down to the Naval Academy for for class trips, I guess, it's on the water and teachers wanna go south and not north to West Point. So I also grew up. I thought I was gonna be a Navy Seal. I was a swimmer.

So I was like, from... I... Probably third grade, I thought for sure I was going to Naval Academy. A teacher I had was a o six in the in the reserves and she said, you know, not many people get to commission as a Navy Seal. You're you're gonna have to be top of your class if you end up going to Naval Academy to to be a Seal.

Otherwise, you're gonna end up on a boat. All of a sudden, West Point became the number one choice. It's like, there's no way I'm guaranteeing that.

You know, not a dissimilar event in my place. Anyway, wind up at West Point. I graduated there in 1986 and set my career as an infantry officer, which, you know, is all about people. And quite frank, was drawn to the infantry for a couple things. You know, one, it was a people business.

Second, it's a challenging field to be in. It was physical. It required, you know, grit, if you will. And I was very fortunate to have a great group of folks I worked with through my career. Wonderful non commissioned officers, incredible soldiers.

I married a girl who I met up in Upstate New York, and we've been married over thirty years now. And she has been probably the reason I stayed in the army as long as I did because as you know well, the army is a family business. You know, like a lot of industry work, to be satisfied in in an organization, in a culture, in an industry, you really gotta have your family on board. And I've been very fortunate to have my my wife of over thirty years on board. We raised three wonderful kids in the military.

My oldest son is a captain in the army at Fort Bliss, Texas. I've got a daughter who's an ICU nurse in Roanoke, Virginia. And my youngest son, who graduated last year from Virginia Tech is heading off to medical school this summer. So we're very proud of them and quite frankly, their success I think is attributed to the environment we had in the army for so many years. I was a trainer most of my time through the army, spent a lot of time leading organizations, know, the standard that you're familiar with, the infantry organizations from platoon all the way through the brigade combat team level where I deployed them to to Iraq a couple of times.

And then came back and found... End of, you know, about my last eight years in the army, was a was a general officer. And I spent that time at the strategic level of the organization, the institution. And at that point, it was about how we make decisions. It was about the outcomes of those decisions, about setting the conditions for units, and organizations to be able to to grow.

And I found that was really fulfilling. I was very fortunate to finish my career, as you mentioned, in Stuttgart, Germany, which is the headquarters for US Africa Command, which is The US combatant command responsible for all US military operations and support on the Continent of Africa. A place I could barely spell when I went to Stuttgart, but really found myself drawn to what Africa can be and the and the great economic and and and cultural vitality Africa has and the importance it has for this country. So it was a great great way to culminate the career. And then as you mentioned, I transitioned after that.

I I found myself... An old boss of mine reached out to me who was working at the University of South Carolina. He was the president at the time. A guy you might remember, lieutenant general retired Bob Caslen, a former superintendent at West Point. One of my mentors and and and a hero of mine, and asked me to come to South Carolina.

And stood up an office called the Office of Military Affairs and did that for about a year plus. President Caslen left the university. I I decided to leave shortly thereafter. And since then, I've had a great opportunity to do some independent consulting, frankly, back in the national security space where I work with companies and organizations that are oriented on common themes of national security, support to the US Army, and support to soldiers in the joint force. So I've been having a great time doing that for the last year plus and and really enjoy it.

So good. Yeah. Look forward to chat about a number of those things. It sounds like great a great... Some great areas to explore.

The the place I wanna jump into, I I mean, I have a lot of curious questions. Just, you know, AFRICOM was getting stood up at the time, and and I'm sure there's plenty of leadership challenges that you went through. But the place I really... I I wanna spend some time is we talked about the transition. And in some ways, you know, you're still transitioning and you've got to experience, I guess, a little bit of a a culture shock going from military to academia, now academia to private sector, and and you're probably getting to interact with a bunch of different organizations.

And how, one, how how the transition's going? Because I think there's a lot of junior officers, there's a lot of enlisted folks that go through this transition and they struggle. And the number one thing I wanna I wanna hear from you, I hope, is that it's an equal struggle at the at the top most executive level just because there's so much change going on. So tell us about how that transition has been and where you are and what what you're learning.

Yeah. No. It's a great question. And, you know, I would argue, this is not unique to the military. This is transition in any industry.

I... You know, the the the military is is another industry sector in many ways. And so transition from the military to any other industry, I think, is a... Is an industry transition that is not uncommon to anybody who's in any industry sector if they move to a different area. So, you know, for the banking industry to to to to any other series is...

I think the transition process statement is rooted because as we grow up in an industry, and and the military may be relatively unique because it's both an industry and a profession. And I think there's a profound difference about a profession and what it brings than just a normal industry business sector. But when you're when you're grounded in a profession like the military or like medicine or the law, I think there's some unique issues, and and you're in... You're imbued in an industry culture from the time you enter that. The unique thing about the military is because it doesn't allow for lateral entry, you really come in as a junior level soldier or junior officer and you grow up in that industry.

And I had to do that, spent thirty four years in the army. In an organization that really doesn't allow for lateral entry, which is not the case in many industries. And I'm finding out that now as a civilian. I mean, lateral entry is very common and frankly very healthy for many industries. But as you go through transitions, I would offer there's three things that I found that you deal with.

And and there's three broad kind of questions you have to ask yourself, you know. What are my objectives in terms of location? You know, where where do I wanna be in terms of geography? Where do I wanna operate? Where do I wanna live?

There is an issue of, you know, what is my passion? What is my vocation? What do I want to do? And then finally, there's the issue of compensation. What do I wanna make?

And and that's a triangle that I think everybody has to balance out in transition. I certainly have had to do that, the military is to balance this idea of of I call them the shuns. Location, you know, vocation and compensation. And balancing the shuns is is challenging because it's rare that you can find where you can, you know, kind of maximize all three. In many case, you're trying to, you know, take a tug and a pull here.

However, what I found within that process that, you know, while compensation and location are important, frankly, boils down for me about vocation. You know, what are you passionate about? What drives you? What is your worth? And and what I found at the base of that is tied to this issue of organizational culture.

What's the formative formative culture that you go into? So I left the military, I came to higher education. Frank, found that the culture in higher education was different than the military. The value structure was different. Not in terms of what many people view as kind of the political kind of cult, you know, top level kind of culture war, but that's not the issue.

Right. It's about how decisions are made. It's about, you know, where equities are in terms of decision process and governance. That's a much different industry, if you will, than it was in the military. And so what I've...

What I counsel fellow soldiers and now civilians who are transitioning is think real hard about the culture you're walking into. What what are are your cultural objectives? Where does it fit your value system and your culture? And make sure that that's the first and foremost. And if you can accept that, then I think you can be very successful because it really does start with having a cultural, a standard aligned framework that you go into.

And I found that is a... I'm continuing to go through that process as now I advise companies as a consultant. And I, you know, I think in many ways, before you get issues of profit and loss and all those kind of other things, you really gotta start off with the people because people build organizational culture. And organizational culture sets the conditions in which any organization is grow... Is gonna grow and and be successful.

And if you don't get the culture piece straight first, it's really hard to kinda get to the next level of things because you don't have things like trust. You don't have things like common and shared values. And I found that's a... That's an evolving process for me. So it's been really great.

I've enjoyed it. It's... But it's been very self reflective as well for the last couple of years.

I I think that's the number one thing I hear is how self reflective it is and as you're talking about this, I wrote I wrote down the shuns, location, compensation, vocation, and you talked about profession. And I think profession and vocation go together, so I'll I'll jump to that. The army, and I wasn't thinking about this, only asks you your preferences for location as maybe. And compensation is just structured based on rank and years of service. So they take those things off the table and there's all kinds of arguments around, you know, the compensation structure and and should it be different, should it not.

But I think it works because then everybody is focused on just doing their job, right, the profession of arms. And the part of vocation profession and what I'll call, really, I think is organizational culture is is the organization about mission, meaning, and impact? Or is the or is it about money and transactional behavior? Right? And you you talked about culture and and talking about culture before you get to p and l.

Right? The business model's gotta work. Got it. You gotta make money. Got it.

But are you focused on a mission and a meaning bigger than yourself? And and we just talked, I just got back from reserves. I still feel tied to that mission of the of the military when I put the uniform on. Right? And that's indoctrinated in us and we're serving something greater than ourselves.

And I think that that's the biggest challenge I give to veterans as they transition into private sector is no matter what level you're being brought in to lead at, you are probably getting a lateral transfer. You do bring leadership skills. You do bring an understanding of, like, winning and mission oriented cultures. That's the value that you get to bring is to is to focus on creating mission and meaning for the team that you're on or the people around you, and I wanted to get your your reaction to that.

No. No. I absolutely agree. You know, your comment... I I I struck by something that reminded me you said I talked about compensation.

It's something I learned, you know, a thousand years ago at West Point in a leadership course, and it talked about money. You know, money being a... There's you got motivators, got satisficers. The reality in money for most people is that you've gotta have a minimum level. A...

It reaches a a kind of a threshold of a satisficer. But money is rarely a motivator. I mean, it can be, but motive... But what motivators are the things that bring value to to an organization. And the military, as you well know, and and other industries as well, where where you don't have a lot you don't have a lot of levers to be able to use with throwing money at problems.

You motivate by other things. You you empower individuals with more authority or decision making ability. You you know, even things as kind of, you know, Napoleon talked about little pieces of ribbon and cloth being put on uniforms, awards is a is a motivator. So this issue about being satisfied by sufficient amount of money being versus being motivated by it, I think is an important criteria for any organization, particularly in the civilian sector, where you don't have some of the kind of the the wraparound piece that the military provides. So, you know, as you're in an industry sector and you wanna keep...

These days, particularly when when the labor market is so challenged, you're trying to keep employees on board, and then they're fleeing laterally to other organizations, the challenge goes, how do you how do you instill people desire to stay on a team, to stay on organization? And I would argue, it's generally not money. Because you you could throw more money at people and they'll certainly take it and they won't complain about it. But you could throw all the money at an employee you want, but if you don't have a good organizational culture, you don't have a good environment that makes them feel empowered, that makes them feel worthwhile, that makes them feel valued, they're gonna go someplace where they find those motivators. And so this issue about being motivated to stay, I think is a key piece, and I think it fits any transition as well, whether it's military to the civilian space or whether it's in...

Inside, you know, the civilian industry spaces. But I thought a lot about that, and it's it's it's really an interesting piece because my entire career, money was rarely a a lever I could pull to keep an employee or a soldier or a sailor or an airman or marine on board my team or to stay valued, stay high performing. It really required other levers, other tools, and those generally got to the areas of empowerment. It got to the issues of respect. It got to the issues of of of feeling valued for what they bring to the team.

And those I found in my time are much more powerful levers than just money alone. But I think often people just defer to money because it's an easy metric to track, and it's an easy lever to pull. But it's not the necessary the right lever that's gonna keep you keep a team together for the long term and certainly bring organizational value for the long term for for an organization that's trying to grow and really to make an impact.

It's... It it is that it... To your point, it's the most obvious in a business sense because you can tie p and l and performance to some KPI together. Like, alright. If you do this and you get us this result, we'll we'll be able to share, you know, basically profit share in some way, shape, or form to somebody.

Why... What have you seen since transitioning? And you don't have to name names or anything like that, but in the adoption of prioritizing culture over compensation?

Yeah. It's great. So I I I recently did some work with a company that was putting together a proposal for a government contract and it was in the IT space. And it was really interesting to watch that team. What I found, what really was impressive about this team was, you know, not only were they just really smart, and they were operating distributed.

I mean, it wasn't a function of COVID. They were operating distributed because that's the model this company operates on. They they tend to operate. They come together when required. But what really impressed me about this, the way they operated, was the value they placed on each of their...

Each of the members of the team. You know, anyone on the team could come come up with an idea. It was accepted. It was battered around. It was it was valued.

It was very clear that the people on that team were driven by their that what they felt was being valued team members moving the organization forward. I have no idea how much they were compensated. It really didn't make any difference, but what's really struck me was the sense that this team operated based on kinda shared values, shared empowerment, shared ideas of of feeling they, you know, they were contributing something to the overall effort regardless of their position in the organization. And and I found that to be really powerful and and frankly, I've been really impressed to kinda be around that as kind of a guy on the outside watching watching it occur on the inside because it's exactly the kind of things that for my entire career in uniform we are striving to achieve and I was watching this, you know, relatively, you know, very agile company. I don't mean agile in the software development process, although they were...

They did IT and software development. But an agile organization, their ability of allowing employees to to really contribute. And frankly, the issue came down, BJ, in many cases to empowerment. I'll give you one comment because I think it may be germane to this. When I was in the army, came with this idea, this...

The realization I came to is empowerment is a wonderful quality you wanna get to. You wanna empower your employees. You wanna empower your subordinates to to do... To be... Make decisions on their own.

To do that well, though, you've gotta establish kind of disciplined processes. You gotta establish structure and and, you know, and and and not only military discipline, but I mean discipline in decision making processes, discipline in in approach. And once you have that, you can empower the heck out of an organization and they'll make, you've heard the term disciplined initiative, they'll make good decisions and really that creates wonderful initiative in an organization. That's what drives the organization forward. But it all starts with this idea of having enough discipline and structure.

This company I was working with, they were doing that very, very well and it was kind of fun to be around and watch.

It's... I mean, I'm listening and and hopefully the audience is too. Just... I'm reflecting on where we are as a company and and we're a pretty small nimble company. We've grown from about 20 to 40 people in the last three years.

And and the the entire effort I'm I'm focused on is creating, you know, one, the discipline process. Right? So that there's some level of predictable results and then allowing the team to be empowered. And where P and L comes in is, you know, Uncle Sam was always paying the paychecks on Fridays when I had soldiers, so it was a little bit easier to be that leader because the whole system was built to allow a platoon leader to be a platoon leader and squad leaders to be squad leaders, and And it really just became a people business. There was no P and L at the end of the day.

In my world now, it's how are we investing our next dollar of profit to continue to build that knowing that we've got market conditions we're up against every day from a from a p and l standpoint whether, you know, are you winning work or you losing work? Are you, you know, are you getting that next client or you're not? And I I think, you know, I'm having fun, and I I just said this last week. When I think of it as fun, it's fun. Right?

These are these are challenging leadership decisions. When I think of them as stressful, it's stressful. So I try to on the side of of keeping it fun and knowing that we're we're building this for the long term. But as I was talking to one of the colonels I was walk... Working with up at West Point, she sent me a quote, and it was by Stanley McCrystal.

And it was about an intoxicating culture in a positive way. And the quote goes, the constant flow in information, sense of inclusion in a worthy mission, and deep relationships that developed created an atmosphere described by one operator as intoxicating. To me, the ideal workplace is less than a place than an environment and an attitude. It's an ecosystem in which members share levels of trust and common purpose that provide a foundation upon which individuals and teams are empowered with information and enough authority to use it. It's not about free ice cream and dry cleaning.

What's free is information that flows across the team to where it is most useful. The price of admission is a willingness to collaborate even when there is no apparent transactional advantage. It is a faith based approach to operating, not with no... Not with connection to religion. The faith lies in a belief that we are all advantaged to share wisdom and capabilities to address the things we must do.

I thought

that was such a powerful quote.

It is and it gets right to this issue of motivators. Mean, are the kind of things that motivate. And I would offer this, you know, military... I take this, Yeah. The military often from the the civilian world takes a a wrap that they're not involved in PM.

I would I would beg to differ. I mean, profit and loss in the military is a... There's a different measure for that, but but there very much is profit and loss. I mean, at the end of the day, we all know when it comes down, it really comes down to the profit and loss is the profit and loss that you have from soldiers on battlefields, and you never wanna get there. But the fact of the matter is, organizational profit and loss in a military piece is less about dollars and cents than it is about readiness.

It's about it's about organizational cohesion. It's those kind of things, which very much are measures of profit. And the loss piece comes when when in terms of an organization's not performing to par or soldiers or sailors, airmen, marine who are not performing to standard. So it is a different metric, of course, but the but the principle of p and l applies. I recognize it's a different kind of approach and I, know, it's it's not the same as as, you know, when you're...

That we have in the in the civilian world. But I think that quote by McCrystal and that attributed to McCrystal's organization is really indicative of the kind of any organization wants to achieve is how do you get a workforce that's got such shared vision and shared values that they're self motivated, self, you know, self correcting, all those kind of things we seek. And and when you can find an organization in in... I'll be honest, another thing is, as you all know, this doesn't come from a single leader. A single leader can begin to set direction, but you've gotta get a team of leaders around that all buy in together on that process.

And once you that, it can really become powerful. And and I've... You know, Stan McCrystal's a kind of a hero of mine in terms of some of the things he's he's done and his his, you know, his ability of applying things that he learned and and demonstrated in kind of the high end special operations world of the military to to the to the civilian marketplace is remarkable. But it's those kind of things we're we're always striving for. That's that's that's what leaders have gotta get to.

That's what that's what organizational leaders have gotta strive for. But it takes work. It takes time. Frankly, it takes a heck of a lot of engagement and risk on part of a leader to be able allow those around him or her to allow their voices to be heard and to take those... And and to really make sure those voices are heard and that they're valued.

It's just not paying lip service to hearing from your employees. It's about taking the employees' feedback and and applying that to the organization. And once that occurs, the organization can can do some amazing things. It starts off with this basic issue of kind of discipline structure and processes. You're not...

It's it's it's not a gang. This is about, you know, this is this is driven toward shared objectives. And once you have... But once you have that kind of basic discipline structure, you can empower organizations and get those kind of things, and you will have amazing outcomes. Whether it's military, whether it's in the in the civilian world, whether it's in government service, whatever it is, it's a it's a powerful place.

It's it's fun to be in that kind of environment.

I I agree. It's it is. And and I'm excited for you that you're getting to see it in in kind of different different types of environments and probably making an impact on those organizations. Jumping a little bit and it doesn't have to be AFRICOM although I think you were you were there as AFRICOM was being stood up. Is that correct?

No. Actually, was there several years later. Okay. I there were a couple iterations before I got there. But, yeah, Afrikaans are a remarkable organization and and does some amazing work for the nation that frankly, a part of the world that most Americans are very unaware of and and don't have an appreciation for for Africa.

So great place to serve and a great place to culminate my career.

So I won't... I I I guess the question is really around the leadership or project challenge that you experienced that that, you know, you've learned a lot from and and whether it was a failure or a success that you think, you know, paints it paints a worthy lesson for the audience.

Yeah. No. It's it's good. So, you know, I was the chief of staff at at Africa Command. One of the things we dealt with, you know, the the US combatant commands, of course, are extension to the Department of Defense, but they they they applied national military strategy and national military policy to the...

These areas. And so one of the things we had to do with AFRICOM is we had, you know, we had a new Secretary of Defense come in. It was Mark Esper, who's actually a West Point classmate of mine, you know, a guy who I knew as a cadet, who's a remarkable, you know, remarkable leader and a remarkable, remarkably talented individual. When secretary Esper came into the Department of Defense, he, you know, he brought in some some ideas of kind of relooking the way we had the forces aligned and capabilities aligned. We had to go through a very complex review of how military capabilities were outlined in the entire continent Of Africa.

For most people, they don't realize, you know, Africa is three times the size of The United States. The Continental United States could fit on the Continent Of Africa three times over with room to spare. It's a remarkably large place, and we have on order of several thousand soldiers there at any one period of time. So a tiny number of folks in a massive location. So we were having to do a full review of where we were, how we were aligned, how we were positioned in Africa, what our objectives were.

That was a remarkably challenging issue because you had a number of different viewpoints of that. You had viewpoints of internal to the command. You had viewpoints, of course, from organizations like the Department of State. You had you had viewpoints, course, from the political, you know, the body politic, if you will, that had views on this process. And all of them had to be reviewed, and you had to work through this piece of, you know, teasing out what's the what's the eventual, if not optimal, the best feasible solution to how we're gonna array ourselves in Africa?

What are the priorities? I worked for a guy who's still in command there, General Steve Townsend was my boss there at the time, who I, again, remarkable American and a great leader who was able to kind of guide our way through that. But as a chief of staff, it was really, it was an interesting organization because chiefs of staff typically don't, you know, you're not in charge, but you're required to kind of synchronize all the tools of what's occurring. So I found that as... You know, it's it's akin to being a project manager in many ways on kind of an Uber scale.

Yeah. And so I found that was a remarkably educational and challenging environment to go through, dealing with a variety of different agendas, trying to come up with something that met all of them. And ultimately, frankly, we're rooted on the issue of trying to stay aligned with what our strategic objectives were on the Continent Of Africa. I would tell you that's an off effort that's ongoing today, so it's not completed. But, you know, like most most projects, they often don't They just kinda transition phases, and that's one of those transition phases.

It's kinda it's kinda what I would say the sustainment phase until we go through another kind of whole review of strategy. So... But but great great learning experience for me in a in a place in the world I've come to appreciate in many ways.

What was the... Kinda random question, but what was the most eye opening part of what's going on in Africa and how it relates to national strategy if you're allowed to talk about it.

Yeah. No. First of all, Africa is a remarkably diverse continent. I mean, the sense that it's got obviously 50 some nations on the... Or 30 some nations on the continent of Africa, but at the same time it has, you know, massive geographic shifts from the Sahara Desert to the lush areas of Southeastern Africa.

At the same time, it has massive amounts of economic opportunity. I mean, markets that are untapped right now, but have massive requirements for infrastructure and institutional development. What's also, frankly, for most America has not realized well is how vested the Chinese, one of our... You know, probably our peer competitor are on the Continent Of Africa as well as the Russians. So Africa, in many cases, is a continent where the the ongoing challenge between great powers is is is playing out in a competitive way, not a lethal way.

But it's an area where The United States, in my view, has should look to invest and support because you've got a very young population across the continent of Africa, massive market share, amazing degree of of critical natural resources that are needed in the... In today's economy, not the least of which are rare earths, of course. You know, those those are huge issues. And frankly, quite honestly, in my view, we're getting we're getting out competed in Africa by the Chinese and some degree by the Russians. You know, it's an area where I think The United States has gotta orient its focus over the next ten to fifteen years as we become refocused on the challenge that both those two those two great powers have, you know, against this country.

That's a great quick little education. I'm tangentially aware, but I think 's good insight. Inspiring People in Places is brought to you by MCFA. MCFA is a CVE verified, service disabled, veteran owned small business. At MCFA, our why is to inspire people in places through project leadership.

We provide planning, strategy, program management, and construction management support services to a wide variety of public and private sector clients. Jump into some rapid fire questions. Is there any current event, public policy, nonprofit that you're involved in outside of kind of your day to day strategy work?

Yeah. You know what? So I sit on a board of an organization called the Big Red Barn Retreat. And and the Big Red Barn Retreat is a is a organization here in the Columbia, South Carolina area that focus on veteran and first responder post traumatic growth. And we offer services there for for both veterans and first responders, all aimed this idea of of cultivating and facilitating post traumatic growth as opposed to, you know, just deal with post traumatic disorder, if you will.

And I'm I'm really privileged just to sit on that board and watch the great work they do for for folks who I feel very strongly about, veterans, of course, but increasingly first responders. And I and I I would offer the first responder community has been an underserved community in this area for many, many years. And and, you know, the... You just watch the last several years what's happened with police work and firefighters. It's easy to see that that those organizations need this kind of service.

And so I'm really, we're really privileged to be able to work with a great team of folks out there that provide that here really regionally for kind of a... For South Carolina, North Carolina, and Georgia. So it's it's been a lot of fun to stay involved and be involved with some folks who really feel passionate about that that area of helping veterans and first responders.

Random comment associated with that. You know, as as we look at, organizational cultures, and you talked about one of the levers we get to pull is appreciation. As a country, we get to pull those levers. And I think the Vietnam era veterans did a very good job advocating for OEF, OIF, welcoming us home, ensuring that, you know, support the warrior if you don't... Even if you don't support the war, all of that, that we created this this great appreciation.

I mean, the NFL has turned it into a a business to some degree supporting military. And, you know, we as a country just don't appreciate those first responders as much as I think we ought to.

I'll give you a factoid that I'm not sure. I... You know, I haven't validated, but I've been told this. So I've been told that there are roughly 18,000 police departments across The United States at the local, you know, local state level. So 18,000 organizations that deal with law enforcement.

And they're... And they generally are separate organizations. And so unlike the military where we have kind of economies of scale and the ability of dealing with our employees and putting together programs that are tied to resilience, mental health, and those kind of things, it is rare to find police departments, let alone fire departments that have the time and the money to invest in those kind of services for their workforce. There are exceptions. I expect the the big with the New York City Police Department, the Los Angeles, they're the big cities.

But you look at, you know, the local and the county level where they're stressed on dollars. I mean, so their their officers are undergoing massive amounts of trauma on the streets every day, dealing with issues that should be supportive of mental health that they're having to deal with, you know, kind with domestic violence issues. And these young officers and and firefighters are dealing with this all the time. And that's an area I think that we don't recognize how much they put up with because, again, they don't have the support mechanisms. So it falls to the nonprofit community in my mind to be able to fill that void in many cases.

And I'm I'm fortunate the organization that I work with here does that here locally. We have a a a very close partnership with, with some of the some of the local police departments and grow some of the local fire departments here to provide those capabilities for officers that need those services that can't get them easily within their within their departments just because of the the, you know, the the the price points and the lack of kind of economies of scale that you have with something as large as the US military.

Yeah. Same goes for training dollars. I mean, we... I I don't think a week would go by where we didn't have some kind of resiliency hour training or whatever in the military, and and they just don't have the resources to be able to commit their manpower to those training sessions.

They really don't. And it's it's... You know, but it's like, you know, if you think about, you know, you look at our... Just using police as an example. I mean, they're in full contact every day.

I know. They're doing amazing work. But boy, they... The the price they pay is a steep one in terms of individuals, families, etcetera, which... And and I don't know the statistics, you know, you can probably surmise that, you know, police officers' career longevity is often, you know, shortened, not because initially...

Not because they... They're injured or hurt, but often because it is... They just can't deal with the the the the mental trauma anymore. They've gotta move off to something else. So, I think that's a that's a challenge we gotta face in this country to be able to support those folks who are increasingly subject to to an environment where they're being placed to provide services that, in my view, should be provided...

You know, could be provided elsewhere, particularly mental health. I mean, they're they're dealing with, you know, mental health crisis on the streets every day, and that's a function of a broader issue in terms of how we deal with the issue of of mental health. But but helping those folks through a nonprofit community, I think, is a... Is is righteous work for... I certainly find it satisfying to be able to be involved in that.

Yeah. I agree. We'll make sure we link to the big red barn. Yeah. Please do.

Favorite quote.

Yeah. Favorite quote. You know, I'll tell you the the quote that you... You've heard this one before. The one that it comes to my mind is the is the the man in the arena quote by Teddy Roosevelt.

It's it's one of those ones that I found is amazing. You know, it's it's not the creek that counts. Yeah. Not... That's it.

Not the man who points out the strong man stumbles where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who's actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, who comes short again and again because there is no effort without error and shortcoming. But who does not actually strive to do the deeds, who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spend himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows at the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails knowing that he... That daring greatly so so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who need to know victory nor defeat. I found that an amazing quote over the years because it speaks to so much about the people we work with in in the business that I've come from.

And I think the same for folks in industry or risk takers and entrepreneurs, the ability to put yourself out there for something and being willing to kind of suffer the the risks that come with that. It's a quote that I haven't initially lived up to personally, but it's one that I strive to emulate when I when I can.

I don't know about that. Any leadership position, you're, you're putting yourself out there. So I I think you are living up to it. Must read book.

Must read book. Okay. The one the one that... At least for me, and it's a novel of all things. And it's one...

It's it's kind of a classic in the leadership field, at least for me. It's called, you know, Once an Eagle by Anton Meyer. Written in 1968, has two main characters, Sam Damon, who's kind of the the humble, you know, kind of protagonist, if you will, And Courtney Massengale, who's the careerist soldier who works his way through his career, and and there's two... He's the protagonist or the antagonist rather. So Once an Eagle is one I'd recommend.

It's a great leadership book. It's about human character, and I found it's one that I've always recommended to folks that I've worked with to read. In fact, I gave it my my... Gave it... It was a copy to my son when he was commissioned.

Say, if you read nothing else, read Once an Eagle.

Right. I appreciate it because I have not read it. I think I heard of it at one point in time and for for whatever reason, so I'm gonna order it today for vacation next week.

Yeah. It's a it's a it's a good read. You'll enjoy it. It's it's it's it's it's a fun easy read and it's based on a good novel format.

If you could hang out with three people for a day, who would they be? What would you do?

Two off the top of my head that come to... You know, one one would be Benjamin Franklin of all place. And probably probably because I recently read a biography on Franklin, which which I found really intriguing. You know, Franklin is a bit of a renaissance man. He was an entrepreneur.

He he was a politician. He was a statesman. He was... He had an amazing repertoire of skills, and I would love to pick his brain on... And and how he journeyed through life.

I think another might be... This comes back to my profession is, Ulysses s Grant, who really was the, you know, the... Led federal forces in the civil war. And he gets a lot of buzz from what he did against Robert E. Lee toward the end of the war in Virginia Appomattox.

But where where US Grant was remarkable is really his operations in the Western Theater. And when he worked up up down the Mississippi River toward the Siege of Vicksburg, and that, in my mind, his ability of making decisions and under adversity and taking calculated risk, was just amazing. Just as an aside, he also wrote what I think is one of the great pieces of, military literature, his memoirs that he published, you know, just shortly before he died in eighteen seventies, which at the time were a bestseller, which to my mind remain one of the great sets of memoirs in terms of objectivity, self critique, and this kind of self analysis that I would recommend anybody if you wanna wade through a long set of memoirs, which reads surprisingly current for the for the time. It's amazing.

So You saying it makes me wanna read it because I think I think it was required reading in Mill Art back at at West Point. And the 21 year old or 20 year old that was reading that just was like in survival mode not appreciating any of the self reflection.

I don't think I read any read any value when I was at West Point. I couldn't survive it. It's been the years since. Yeah, Grant's memoirs are worth the read. But Grant and Grant and Franklin for sure.

And I think the third... You have to be pressed for a third, you know, it actually might be a guy of some of your listeners may not be familiar with. It's Malcolm Gladwell, who's a, you know, who's who's just an amazing viewer of the human the human condition. Written a couple great books. Blink, of course, is one.

The Tipping Point is another. Malcolm Gladwell is an amazing individual who observes human behavior and can can kinda translate that into a narrative form, I find really compelling. So maybe the third guy would be Malcolm Gladwell.

Awesome. Legacy. You're in this transition. You... You've been a soldier.

You've been a leader. You... You've obviously been successful as a father. What do you wanna be remembered?

You know, at the end of the day, I think we, you know, I think the first thing I remember before is what's your... Is your legacy, is your family. I mean, in my case, I've been I've been blessed with a, you know, a wonderful marriage and three really remarkable kids who I'm very proud of, as I mentioned. So that's kind of the first thing. I I think the other piece though is I feel privileged to be able to serve for thirty four years in uniform.

And my hope is that, you know, I've been able to touch some individuals through that that course of my service that, you know, they have succeeded. You know, I'll give you one example. I I commanded a I commanded a brigade combat team in combat. And, you know, you often talk about... This may be another piece of of leadership.

I I think the real legacy of a leader is not necessarily what he or she does. It's how well their subordinates do in the future. And so your legacy is really the generation that follows you or the generations that follow you follow you. In my case, I was very fortunate that, you know, I had, like, I think seven lieutenant colonels that were my direct reports, you will, when I was a colonel. And of those seven, six of them went on to command brigade level organizations of their own.

They were immensely talented in their own right. I'd I'd like to think that I was able to help them a little bit and set the conditions for their future success, but I'm immensely proud of that. And I think, you know, we always wanna have a legacy in terms of, you know, what those around us have done in terms of their performance in the future. Not necessarily what we did for the organization. It really comes from from the generation or two later.

So hopefully, of that has borne off to some folks that I've been fortunate to serve with over the years.

I couldn't agree more. Probably a great way to end, but any any other challenge to our audience or or parting words for for our listeners?

Yeah. You know, think, you know, as I've as I've kinda gone through one career to another career transition, what what what amazes me is some of the commonality of challenges. I mean, you know, we're we're... We've lived through this world, particularly you and I and and folks of our age. This idea of, you know, this...

You've heard it before, this idea of being, you know, digital immigrants and digital natives. You know, we're living through a transition of information age and what that means in terms of how decisions are made, how we trans... Transmit information to one another, and how our... How we're influenced. So what I find, that's a that's a challenge I think we're all having to deal with both in industry and societally, is this transitional process of moving from an environment where we were operating at the speed of information at one pace in tempo, now much more quickly, much more connected.

And and I watch generationally how people that I work that were... Who are younger than I am, who are, quote, the digital natives of the of the world, if you will, how they deal with it. I think we're gonna work our way through that over the next fifteen or twenty years, but it's gonna have profound impacts in the way businesses make decisions. It's gonna make... Have profound impacts in the way businesses prioritize their investments.

And and I think that's a that's a common challenge we're all gonna have to face. And it's not just in it's not just in industry, of course. It's in it's in, you know, government. It's in national security issues. It's in international relations.

All that is coming together in a hyper connected world that we're gonna have to deal with. Until we sort this all out, I think we will eventually, but we're very much in the kind of a rocky transition of kinda working our way through a pace and tempo that twenty years ago, you know, we didn't even... We couldn't envision, and and now it's every day. And I think twenty years from now, we're gonna be a different place in... Place than we are today on that.

So... But I think we're all gonna live through that process. Us, our children, and to some degree, our grandchildren are gonna live through that process, But it confronts us, I think, in every aspect of what we do in society and certainly in business. So it's it's gonna be kind of interesting to watch and it's fun to kind of surf that wave, if you will, while we're going through it.

I agree. Sir, where's the best place for people to connect with you? LinkedIn?

Yeah. That's probably the best place. I've got a LinkedIn profile, todd McCaffrey on LinkedIn, and I respond to messages on there. So happy to happy to connect with folks if they're interested and I'd love to engage folks in in conversations.

Awesome. Sir, thank you so much for your time. Really appreciate your insight and your experience and taking the time to to talk with us today.

Thanks, BJ. I really appreciate the time and wish... Best you... Wish you the best of luck with with you and your team.

Thanks so much, sir. Hey, everybody. If you're enjoying this show, do us a favor and subscribe to Inspiring People and Places on iTunes, Spotify, or your favorite podcast hosting platform. We'd also greatly appreciate if you left us a review and shared this with other entrepreneurial public servants. Be sure to visit our website at www.mcfaglobal.com and sign up for our newsletter to stay in touch with the projects we're involved in, the clients we're helping, and the job openings that we are hiring for.

Until next time. Thanks so much. Have a great week and a great weekend.