The Hardest Order You'll Ever Follow: Your Own

You're listening to Leadership Blueprints, the podcast where we explore the art and science of leading yourself, inspiring and empowering your team, and project leadership in the architectural, engineering, construction, and development industries, and beyond. I'm your host, Vijay Kramer, president and CEO of MCFA. I hope you enjoy today's show. Between movies and news clips, the stereo of a leader is often the same image. Herb Brooks in the nineteen eighty Olympic locker room, general Patton pacing in front of his troops, or some larger than life figure rallying people before a big moment.

And, yes, leadership in the military can look like that. Commanding soldiers, leading missions, making decision when the stakes are high in environments like Iraq and Afghanistan. But leadership doesn't end because you take the uniform off or because you don't have a team of 3,300, or 3,000. In fact, for many of us, the real challenge begins in leadership when all of that structure disappears. When there's no rank, there's no command structure, and there's no defined playbook.

When leadership becomes less about authority and more about influence. That's where today's conversation lives. Craig Bryant is a fellow West Point graduate, fellow class of 2004, and a great friend. He spent years as an army engineer officer leading troops, building infrastructure, and serving in combat. And today, he's the US Army Corps of Engineers market leader at Meade and Hunt, helping his firm navigate and grow in the complex world of federal design and construction.

What I love about Craig's story is how it bridges two worlds, the military and the built environment, and it shows the fundamentals of leadership never really change. It's always about people, purpose, and persistence. We talk about how Craig transitioned from leading soldiers to leading teams and partnerships across the AEC industry, how he's learned to lead without authority, build trust across organizations, and why simple acts of gratitude still matter most. So let's dive in from West Point and the officer basic course to the Army Corps of Engineers and leading in the private sector. I hope you enjoy this conversation on leadership, preparing for a career change, and leading business development in the federal market.

Welcome back to Leadership Blueprints, everybody. We are continuing our November DOD to AEC, that's Department of Defense, to architect, engineering, construction industry, where we talk through the transition and the leadership lessons learned that we can apply from active duty to to the built environment. And in particular, of value. We talk through the transition and the decision making of of when it's time to hang up the uniform, how people think through that. So if you are somebody that is leading active duty, we hope you get something out of today's episode.

Excited to welcome my buddy and West Point two thousand four classmate for Country and Core, Craig Bryant to the show. Craig, what's happening?

Thanks. Yeah. Great to be here. Told you beforehand, but first time I've ever done one of these, so hopefully it's not a crash and burn. Let's see how it goes.

You'll be just fine. Rookies are my specialty.

Well, that's good to know. Alright,

Craig. We start every show letting people understand the the role that you currently are... I mean, I hit on that you came off active duty, and we'll get into that and the career transition. But give you your thirty seconds to give the elevator pitch of of who you are today. Wish that big beard you got going on.

Yeah. Yeah. My wife likes it. Sure. So, yeah, I'm the USACE market leader for a firm called Meet and Hunt.

We are a full service AE firm. We work in a lot of different markets around the world, but my focus... Early around the country. My focus is purely on the core of engineers. The last, about eighteen months or so, I've been focused purely on the vertical portfolio.

And, here in about about two, three months, I will pick up both the vertical and the civil works portfolio. And I'm a business development guy, pure seller. And for those who are out there, there's a lot of different models. This is done under seller doer and things of that nature. My job is to be out in front of understanding what opportunities will exist for Meet and Hunt to pursue in the use case environment from IDIQs and various individual projects as the case may be.

And then also a lot of partnership, which I hope we get to talk about that because one the things I've learned over the last eighteen months of doing this or so, now I guess... No. Roughly, like, 18. The partnerships that we have here in the kind of the federal FedCon AEC space are much different than the partnerships that are out there in other parts of the AEC space, and they function a little bit differently. And something's really important to understand and actually kind of plays into a little bit of what I think...

I hope we get into as we talk about transition and how I found my new home here at Mead and Hunt and was able

to

kinda quickly get up to speed or maybe I'm not up to speed yet. We'll find out here, I guess. But so, yeah, that'd be good.

Let's go right into it because I talk about leadership, but I find myself... We come off active duty, and whether you're a platoon leader leading 30 people, or a battalion commander leading a thousand people, or brigade commander leading 3,000 people, You come into the private sector and all of a sudden it's like, oh, you're gonna be a BD asset, and you're a strategic you're a strategic player and you're still a leader, but you don't have a ton of direct reports and you're not the CEO of this huge organization. But in many ways, business development and leading teams, leading partnerships, and leading clients towards decisions, to me, is the highest leverage leadership that we have. So why don't you dig into how leadership is is applying to that role, and and maybe we get right into what what led you to choosing a business development type role and the and the culture at at Fort Meade that attracted you there?

Yeah. Sure. So any organization, which a team is an organization, it doesn't matter how big or small that team is, it's an organization, needs someone who's pointing, I learned this. We learned it at West Point, god, twenty five years ago now. It's hard to...

It's it's scary to say that. It makes me feel older than I really am, I reckon. But it needs someone who's pointing the team, you know, getting them organized in the right direction. You know, how many times in the army you said, hey, you know, we're all gonna get across the finish line. Who knows how big the box we get across the finish line will be because you got, you know, your stragglers and things like that, but we're all gonna get across the finish line.

And it's kind of the same thing that I found here. You know, my goal or my job as the USACE market leader, a lot of times, I'm what's called the proposal manager. You know, whenever you go into a proposal mode, you've got different folks who have different seats on the bus, you know, as far as the proposal coordinator who's actually, you know, putting together the proposal. You've got other folks who are sorting through what's the team gonna look like, where the project's gonna look like, and things of that nature. And my job is to really shepherd that through the whole process and make sure we get from prepositioning, right, which can be six months to a year ahead of an opportunity through the actual advertisement, through the production of our statement of qualifications.

And other people pop in and out of that, but I'm the one guy who who shepherds and feeds and cares for that particular proposal all the way across. Right? And so that means I'm coordinating assets from different parts of the company sometimes. It means I'm coordinating with the teaming partners. Right?

And a lot of times, it's with those teaming partners, that's where some of the most difficult leadership lessons come in or most difficult leadership challenges because you're blending two different companies. And one of the things that you learn as you go through this transition process and then you kinda get out here into the industry is every company has its own individual culture. And none of them are bad, at least that would be how I would say it. You know, everybody fits into a culture where they're happy. Right?

So that's why I say there's not really bad cultures at any firm, but they are just inherently different, and that's why there's different firms. We don't all just work for the same company. Right? And so when you hit those friction points between the two cultures, when you hit those friction points between the two processes, some companies have different business processes. When you find those friction points, that's where the leaders have to come in.

How do we get past that friction point? How do we make these two teams work together? How do we find the best way to the most successful outcome that we can do? And just yesterday, I was on the phone with one of the managers here at Meet and Hunt. She called me about her...

One of her employees and said, hey, I've heard there's some some challenges going on right now with a particular proposal, and I didn't even know that I was doing it. And I was talking with her, and and I said to her, I said, hey. You know, when you talk to your employee, just from a guy who used to do this for, you know, twenty years as a leader, you know, here's some thoughts of how I might approach it. It it wasn't even intentional. I don't even know where it came from.

Like you said, I don't have direct reports anymore, but as I work with all of my folks and my team, I try to always approach it from the same standpoint of, you know, respect and care as a leader that I did when I was, you know, in the district or in a battalion or whatever it was across my army career there. I think sometimes we just fall back to what's normal. You know? We fall back to what we're used to, and I didn't even realize I said it, and then I was like, oh my god. I actually just said that.

I I felt, you know, very boomer ish for a moment after having said it. And... But, yeah, it's just taking those... It... It's very small unit.

You know, the the different... Taking the small unit leadership strategies that you might have used as a platoon leader or a company commander and applying them to these, like you, again, said, you know, these massive opportunities, $500,000,000, you know, MATOCs and things like that. And it's just so crazy how much it transitions. And one of the other things that I learned, you know, going through the process, we get so much more exposure to that leadership in the army so much earlier on. I mean, I was really old when we graduated from West Point.

Right? You know, I was, you know, 24. Right? You know? And and here they, you know, give me a platoon of 30 people, and and then you kinda get to the...

Become a company commander in your late twenties, thirties. You've got a 130 or whatever the number might be there. Right? And then you come to industry, and all of sudden, you realize, you know, these organizations are smaller, but the folks in order to get into those places to lead them, you know, twenty five, thirty years before they may have, you know, an organization the size of a company. Yeah.

Right? And so your your scale of thought changes a little bit in that regard. But I think if you just stick to the the the good principles of basic leadership and and fair treatment of people, that's really what's important. And, again, also just making sure people are valued. We won a contract.

It was actually my first. And the first thing I did was I picked up the phone, I called the proposal coordinator, and I just said, hey. Thanks. And she didn't even know why I was calling her. And I I mistakenly assumed that she had gotten the news that we had won the contract.

And, you know, so I just called her, and, literally, the first thing I said to her was just, hey. Thanks. Appreciate it. And she said, what for? And I said, we won that contract.

And she said, you know, you're one of the few people who's ever actually just picked up the phone and called and said thanks for it. And I said, well, I mean, to me, it seemed like the right thing to do. You know, it seemed like kind of basics of leadership and just making sure people understand that they're valued.

So I I wanna jump into how you do that when they are not your direct reports. We are so used to an organizational hierarchy, and these are my people, and these are... You're you're grabbing senior SMEs to help with a proposal. You're you're grabbing marketing assets. You're coordinating all these assets that are not directly reporting to you and probably in a semi

Matrix organization.

Yeah. Yeah. Matrix organization. What what are some lessons you've learned? It sounds like, you know, lesson number one, treat people treat people with with the right level of respect and and use simple things like please and thank you.

What else have you learned in organizations where people are constantly being stretched for their time, and in many ways, being judged for how they're deploying their time, right, utilization and whatnot. Talk to us about that, and then we'll get into some of your transition lessons.

Yeah. I think... Well, the first thing is you just to to be deliberate with it. You sit down and... I never start a proposal process with the, you know, I'm going to thank this person publicly in this manner.

I'm going to, you know, not thank this person over here. I think you just have to be deliberate with understanding where along the way it's appropriate and really being specific with it. Because the specific part is so important for folks to understand that your your gratitude is genuine. Anyone can pick up the phone and say thank you after a contract win. Right?

Like, I'm not bragging about that. It was just kind of a funny experience. But on the other hand, we've had project pursuits that we've lost where I've had marketing coordinators or, you know, research folks do amazing work, and it's making sure you tell their boss. Right? Like, sometimes it's better than telling them, you know, you in a manner tell their boss, hey.

This person did an outstanding job with this particular thing, you know, and whatever it was. So it's very specific so they understand that you recognized that. You know, folks just wanna be seen. They wanna be appreciated for what they do. I've generally found, you know, some people kind of think like the carrot and stick stuff, oh, you you pay them more, you know, you give them a a bonus or whatever.

I would love to have the authority to do that. I I don't. Probably a good thing is I would probably have a habit to spend like a a drunk sailor. But having the intentionality of recognizing that sometimes just goes a lot further, and it builds goodwill. And, you know, we had an issue recently between us and a teaming partner where we've each sort of mutually let each other down at different times.

And so then having that strategic conversation with those leaders on the other side of it to say, hey. We recognize this is where we kind of misstepped, and they said, hey. We recognize where we misstepped. And then you let it go, you know? Yeah.

We're not gonna worry about it anymore. We're gonna focus on, you know, whatever the next thing is. I think that's really important. But, yeah, it's... It it has been interesting to find the ways to directly lead, because you're right.

We're... We come from the military. We're so used to having that organizational structure, and I've just found this is... At the end of the day, it's very important just to be intentional with your gratitude, intentional with your your respect. And also that old thing about, you know, praise in public, you know, discipline in private, you know, really, you know, I mean, I've never had to discipline anybody in this role.

I hope never. Yeah. I do plenty of that with my kids. That's a different story. You're just the father, I guess.

But Where our... It's where our best leadership lessons are actually.

It actually really kind of is. You see the worst and the best of yourself and your kids, and then you learn where you you messed it up. So much of it just goes back to those fundamentals of leadership that are kinda ground into us early on about how to do that.

Talk to me. I wanna get into your career path in the military just to give people a little flavor because you had a a great mix of operational combat stuff and and USACE stuff. So why don't we go there, and then we'll talk about what led you or what attracted you or what was the decision making process coming off active duty for your for your first job? Sure. Yes.

We both graduated in o four. We were at OBC together. And then from there, where where does Craig Bryant's career take

Yeah. Where do I go? So I go to Fort Polk, Louisiana. And I was a platoon leader and a company XO and a battalion staff officer. Just did the the standard lieutenant and young captain things.

Went to Iraq for a tour, you know, in 2005, 2006, I guess it was. Left there. On transition leave between my first assignment and the career course, I wind up meeting... Who is now my wife. She is now my wife.

Wind up meeting her at home in Virginia on leave. We were at the career course together too, weren't we?

We were. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I knew Josh Wilson was there and

and We had a great squad there.

To be honest, you know, like, so much of our OBC class transitioned to the career course together, and so I was trying to put together, like, who was in... Who was or wasn't there as I was trying to think them through getting prepped for this. And, so they're at the career course, and there were some situations with Megan's education and some student loan repayments and stuff like that. So I needed to get back to Virginia or back to the East Coast. Went to Fort Bragg, did company command there in the eighty second and some staff time.

And I was really actually sort of ready to leave the army at about eight years. I kind of had... I didn't have a lot of goals for the army when I came in the army initially. I mean, what do we know when you're... And looking back now, I know what I didn't know.

Right? I kinda wanted to be a platoon leader. The war was going on at the time, so I wanted to, you know, do my part in that. And everybody... I'm sure you remember this.

Everybody always said, don't leave the army until you've been a company commander. Right? You know, all that kind of stuff. And so I sort of wanted to do that. And Megan was pregnant at the time.

We were there living in Fayetteville and... Which is close to home for both of us, and I could kinda decided that I was sort of done with the army, and the army might have been sort of done with me. And next thing you know, some weird twist of fate, the army came in and said, hey. You can go to graduate school if you want to. And then on the backside of that, you'll have to, you know, go work for the Corps of Engineers.

And I said, that sounds like a a good opportunity. You know? And I think worse comes to worse, I come out of it with a master's degree and a little bit of time in the Corps of Engineers. And if I decide to move on after that, you know, I decide to move on after that, and I'll be little bit better positioned. So I went through Georgia Tech, did my master's in civil engineering there.

And then first kinda curveball from the army was wound up... Got selected to go to CGSC. So went from... Went directly from grad school to CGSC. And then coming out of that, went to the core there in Baltimore.

Worked for, you know, Ed Chamberlain, one of your previous podcasters. Ed and I have a a lot of background together, actually. Kinda oddly enough, my master's thesis adviser was on his board for his PhD at Virginia Tech. And then funnily enough, his wife and my wife went to the same high school about ten years apart. But...

So a lot a lot of uniqueness there that, you know, he and I share some some background and wind up working for him in Baltimore. Also did a little tour through headquarters USACE, as an aide for one of the DCGs up there.

Which aide?

I was, John Peabody's exo for kind of the tail end of his career there for a couple of months and then worked in the RSFO there in Baltimore. I think you and I connected a little bit back then. Yeah. Dale Daniel Yep. Worked with there in the RSFO back then.

Did that job for a little while, and then went back to tactical world back at Fort Hood, which was a little interesting being a guy who'd sort of grown up around that Fort Bragg culture. And next thing you know Yeah.

Light fighter. Light fighter in a heavy town.

Wind up at Fort Hood and, you know, my first brigade commander there talking about the tanks and the Bradleys, and I sort of jokingly looked at him and said, which one's which? And he looked over and he, you know, I've got the eighty second patch on the right arm and the senior parachute swings. He's like, oh, yeah. You're one of those. And, you know Talk about cultures.

Yeah. Yeah. Very different. You know? And that was great, though.

Went to Korea while I was there and then came home, then went to Poland, which was great. And then came time to find that post KD job, and I said, hey. I wanna go back to the core. It was a it was a good experience and good opportunity to just see something a little bit different. As luck would have it, you know, we wound up in Tulsa.

It was something we had never heard of. To be honest, you know, here we are. We're... They called me and said, you know, you're our first choice, and I I said, I don't even know who you who you guys are. And they said, what do you know about Tulsa?

Said, it's in Oklahoma, that's North Of Texas, and that's about the extent of it, you know. And so, of course, I'm in Poland while this is happening. And so we got there, and, know, I kinda gave myself a fifty fifty shot. This guy gets to the transition thing. Right?

I'd kinda given myself a fifty fifty shot at making, you know, battalion command. I didn't really necessarily know what I would do if I didn't. Wound up not making it on the first look, and so the wife and I kinda chatted a little bit, and I said, what do we wanna do? And the way the career paths work, you know, I was kind of at a point where I maybe could've stayed in Tulsa the whole time and and just sort of rode it out to retirement there, Or, you know, we could ask the army to move us, and we decided to wait a year before we figured out what to do. And my wife's actually the one who said to me, I think I wanna stay here in Tulsa.

So then I had to kinda convince the army to let me stay a little bit of extra time, but that was that was not really that difficult. And so, you know, when I didn't make the command list, it was kinda one of those, okay. It's a... That's a huge... That's a tough cut.

Didn't take it as, like, a personal shot or anything like that. You know? I was disappointed, obviously, that natural competitiveness of West Pointers. You know, you're disappointed when you don't succeed. But I just had to look at it as, okay.

There's something else out there for me. And made the decision then to to sort of transition, and that started a whole different process of, you know, researching what types of jobs do I wanna do, where do I wanna do them, who do I wanna work for. And I think if there's one thing I could say to those who might be watching this right now about the transition, if you're watching it and you're not thinking about your transition, start thinking about it because it's just... I think so many of us in the army were so focused on the mission. We're so...

And I was even bad about this. I ignored some of the transition stuff, you know, there at the end just because, hey. I wanna, you know, carry the rock all the way until that, you know, whatever that last day is on the calendar that you're gonna be... Before the transition leave starts. Right?

You know, I'm I'm here until I'm here kinda thing. Just so much of the stuff that I just didn't know to even think through, and then you... You're starting to work through all the decision making process and stuff like that. And I didn't even know what I wanted to do. I didn't know anything about the industry side, you know.

And I actually have a mentor. Interestingly enough, he's with Meet and Hunt, kinda funny, but he's a mentor there in Tulsa. And I went out to Mead and Hunt when I realized I was gonna retire. I said, okay. I'm gonna retire.

I need to find a job. And I I went out to Mead and Hunt's website and and found a... They had a project manager job advertised at the time. And I I wanna say they had, like, six or seven things that they wanted the candidate to have, different experience types. And I looked at it and I figured I had...

I could write a resume that spoke to four or five of them and I could get by on the the college trial and the other two. And so I just sent it over. I said, you know, it's very clear because all the rules about negotiations and stuff like that. It was very clear and said, hey. I'm not...

It's not this job. It's not right now. I'm just trying to learn what I need to be targeting for my transition. Is this a good job that I should be looking for? And the reason I picked Meade and Hunt and that person in that job was he knew me, he knew the job, and he knew what I'd done in the army, and he could give me that kinda good insight.

Right?

Yeah.

He writes back, and he says, no. You should look at this job. And he sent me a job for a business development opportunity that they had posted at the time. I read it, I don't even know... I don't understand the words.

You know? I can't spell these words. What are you talking about? So I sent him a note back, and I said, hey. I I don't understand.

What am I missing? And he started just kind of explain what business development folks do here in the federal world, how that more lines up with what, you know, military officers do from a perspective of, you know, developing strategy, developing plans, things of that nature. And so then I started researching things about all the different models of the seller doer model, the... Again, you know, the the pure business development guys, and just learning more and more about that. Fortunately, I'd I'd gotten involved with SME.

That was kind of an odd side quest that got started down there at Fort Hood.

Oh, yeah?

It sort of grew. Yeah. It started off... When I was at Leavenworth for CGSC, the Kansas City Post had paid for a bunch of us to take the PE prep course. And I can tell you right now today, if I hadn't attended that PE prep course, I never would have passed that exam.

And so when I got to Fort Hood, I had a couple of lieutenants come in. They said, hey, sir. You're a PE. That's pretty rare. We wanna be PEs.

How'd you do it? And I said, well, I took this prep course that this SA and E organization paid for. And, so I start trying to make some phone calls where the SA and E people are around Fort Hood and, you know, just link these guys up and sorta outsource the problem. Right? And it quickly wound up that I got invited to a lunch, and next thing you know, I'm the Fort Hood post president.

You know? I was like, wait a minute. How did this happen? And and, you know, that just sorta grew into some things. Wound up being, you know, an elected director on the national board and stuff like that.

And so that gave me a lot of exposure to the ability to talk to different people from different firms, learn different things about different firms, and and talk to people who had transitioned already and find out, hey. What do I need to know? What do I need to be asking? Tell me what I don't know. Right?

Yeah. That's the most dangerous part are the things that you don't know. And so through that, just had a a... Built a huge network, you know, and then wound up when the time came, you know, you sort of... You know, you get your retirement orders and you turn on the little thing on LinkedIn that says, you know, open to work, you know, or what...

I think I think that's what it says. Yeah. Opened a new job or something like that. And from there, I just started, you know, working through the process of folks reaching out to me with opportunities, me finding opportunities that were out there, you know, working through this whole... I I kind of...

Recently, because I've been helping some guys through it, you know, sort of looked back a little bit at what do I wish I had known. Yeah. And I had sort of decided to take a little bit of a different tactic probably than some people did. I decided to try to build a profile of the type of company that I would wanna work for, and then I would go out and market myself to those types of companies. And so I went through...

Fortunately, Leifonsofova, I think... I hope I said his name properly. I I never really created names, but he posted on LinkedIn when they changed the rules to where you could apply for retirement two years before you were able to retire. And I saw that on Lay's post, I was like, oh, wait a minute. Holy cow.

And so, you know, you put your retirement paperwork in, you start to kinda work through some of these things about what do I need to know, and and I just sort of didn't know. And... But that gave me time to start talking to people, and I quickly figured out if if you target a job, if you target a type, that's really tough. You start getting these really narrow pathways, and I wanted a a broader pathway. And so I said, you know, I don't know what I wanna do because I've never been in industry.

I had some ideas of what I didn't wanna do, which I thought were important. Things that you just don't wanna do, don't do them. Right? You have the option to have the choice now. And so I said, you know, maybe I just wanna find out who I wanna work for.

And so I started... I spent... Again, I had two years of of foreknowledge here. I spent about the first year of that talking to different people, hey. How do you like your job?

How do you like your firm? What is it you... You know, one thing I learned is nobody's ever gonna tell you their firm has a bad culture. And I sort of made that joke earlier. You know, companies don't have bad cultures.

Otherwise, you know, but no one who... No one who's working at a firm is gonna tell you, you know, this place is a Titanic and it's fixing to sink. I mean, I'm sure there's someone out there who will, but it's pretty rare. And so just trying to identify what were the things that made people like those things and started doing Venn diagrams in my mind of the things that were were popping out being important that drove Yeah. Towards culture and things of that nature and started building the profile of the type of company that I would want to to work for.

And then once that was done, really just sort of actively... I never said no to anybody who wanted to talk about an opportunity. That's the first thing I would... That may be honest. First.

I probably already said the first thing I would tell people, but, you know, something that I think would be really important for folks transitioning is never don't take the phone call. Always take the phone call. Always take at least the first conversation, maybe even the second conversation. You just never know what's out there. Right?

You were doing business development before you knew what business development was.

Yeah. Probably. Right? And then maybe that's why it's kinda worked out a little bit. But...

So talked to a lot of folks and and learned the the methods, and then I've had this sort of parameters of the types of companies, you know, and and and my my kind of drivers were size. You know, I I knew I didn't wanna go work at an AECOM or a Jacobs. They're great firms. I don't say that to... You know, there's a lot of folks there doing great things.

It's just they they're massive, and you can get lost in them. I really didn't wanna go to small business either. I mean, you can... You and I could probably, you know, go to a bar and and close the place down and dry it out talking about all the challenges and and stresses of being in a small business environment, you know, and I was like, hey. This is my second career.

I

Yeah.

Look and manage the amount of stress I'm signing up for. Right? It was kinda the way I would say it.

Yeah.

And so I kinda wanted to be in that sort of middle range, you know, where I'm at. I found, you know, ownership structure was really important in driving culture. So for me, I've figured out that I wanted to be in an employee owned firm. And then I also figured out, hey, you know, I I don't wanna be at a firm that's never done USACE work before. You know, I knew I wouldn't have stayed tied at the core.

I love the civil works mission. That's why it's kinda funny that I've spent the last eighteen months focused on the Circle. Yeah. Exactly. A little bit funny there, but I love the civil works mission.

I think it's really the strategic value that the core provides to the nation. And so those are the things that I was looking for. So I went looking for firms that that met that. And then I think the the challenging thing is you've gotta be ready for firms to tell you, hey. We just don't have an opportunity for you right now.

Yeah. That's not personal. It's just a reality of business. And so went through all that, lots of different interviews with different firms. Mhmm.

The other challenge that I had was I realized that everybody... Probably probably, like, the third or fourth conversation with different firms, I realized that everybody that I was talking to was a friend, you know, with someone I'd served with along the way or was a friend of the friend who they'd introduced me. And I I realized and I said, one of my win themes to to bring something that I'd never heard of in the army, a win theme, you know, I've learned it now on this side of it. So retrospectively, you know, one of my win themes was I don't wanna lose any friends over picking a home. Because, ultimately, just like some firms are gonna tell you no, you can only say yes to one firm.

Right? Totally. So, you know, you're gonna have to look at you're gonna have to, at some point, look at a friend and tell him tell him no. I didn't want that to cost me friendships and relationships that I'd built over a long, long time. And so that's, you know, again, just the importance of being respectful.

And then I get here, and I realized why it was even more important. I wound up... I really got to, like, the true hard interviews, hard written offer stage with about four firms. And Mead and Hunt gave me an offer, and I had a couple others, and I was just deciding and discerning and figuring out what to do, and and ultimately made the decision Mead and Hunt was the the right place to be. And I get to my first day at Mead and Hunt, and I realize Meet and Hunt's in joint ventures with two of those other firms.

Right? And so, you know, had I been, you know, some You

call that coopetition.

Yeah. Exactly. But the flip side of that too is, you know, I would say that because of the way I approach that process of finding a home, I already had those relationships built, and those folks were just as excited for me to to land at Meet and Hunt as I was. Least they've said that. Maybe they're lying.

I don't know. But they've at least told me they're excited for me to be where I'm at, which is appreciative. So that's one of those, you know, looking back, I don't know that I would have realized that going into the process, how important that would be. It's not always gonna be that way. You know, that might be a unique situation for me, and that...

That's probably because I targeted companies that are a lot like Meet and Hunt. And so we tend to team with companies that are a lot like us, and so that that may factor of that. But, you know, I just look back, and I'm like, I'm really glad I I'm really glad I approached things the way I did because I could've made my life now a lot more difficult if I had made some really poor decisions, you know, two years ago. So

I I think it's such an important lesson. I mean, in business development, in in the transition process, relationships are so valuable, and they drive... And you wanna do work, and you wanna work with people that you have... That you like trust respect and vice versa. They like trust and respect you.

So I think it's a great I think it's a great point. Any books or resources that you used as you were, like, trying to figure out, hey. How the hell do I even get started on thinking through this?

Yeah. So this is the big joke about Craig Bryant in in leadership is that I'm not a very good reader. I'm not. I'm terrible at it. I actually...

I I did the SA and E LVP program towards the end of my major's time, right towards the end of it, I wish I'd done it five years before. I learned a lot in that. One of the weird ones in it, this is, you know, okay, boomer. We'll pull it up here, I guess. How to win friends and influence people.

You know, it's out there. It's kind of this generic leadership book that that people have just thrown around for years. But one of the things that kinda that crystallized in my mind that that helped me was never approach a situation focused on yourself. Approach a situation focused on the best outcome of the situation and and understand that the best way to work with someone else is to make sure that you... They understand understand that you're taking their concerns into heart.

And if I could boil the theme of the of how to Great.

That's such a

down into something, that would be it.

So did the SME LDP have you read that?

They did. They did. It was kind of funny. They also had us read Good to Great, which is a a pretty funny story amongst folks who were involved with that. With me, I hated the book Good to Great.

I avoided it forever. I had a battalion commander, and this was way before hashtagging was a thing back when you and I were captains. I don't even know if Twitter was invented yet. And he used to... His tagline was good to great.

You know, he'd say something to us in a command and staff meeting. He'd be like, good to great. I was not a particularly huge fan of this individual, and I decided... I I went... I had to go look up what it was, found out it's a book.

And I decided then and there that if that book made that man, I was never gonna read that book because I did not wanna turn into that man. And so I get to the the LDP program, and SA and E makes me read it. And about two chapters in, I realized that either, a, that guy had never actually read the book. He just heard the tagline and thought it was cool.

Yeah.

Or b, he

He read it, but didn't didn't synthesize.

Read it, and he... The way he and I approached it was completely different because my takeaways were completely different. So that's that's kind of that. I would say, though, one of the big resources, if you're wanting to get into the AEC, and this is not a paid endorsement, but the career transition workshop that SAME does, you can condense. So a lot of that, like, researching of companies and stuff, I was doing that ad talk along the way, you

know Yeah.

At different things. If you wanna condense into that and get to get to be able to do that in just a couple of days, that transition workshop will help you do that. I will just give the disclaimer. Don't go to it thinking you're gonna leave with a job. I think some folks go there thinking they're gonna walk out with job offers in hand, and I don't Yeah.

Yeah. I don't think that's realistic. You'll walk out with opportunities and and relationships that you need to continue to nurture. But And

greater awareness of the industry and the types of opportunities that are available. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

So I just wanna make a a quick note here. Not everybody, I think most people listening know what SAME is, Society of American Military Engineers. A huge, huge organization supporting really the the gap between the civil commercial AE industry, including security and defense, not just architect, engineering, construction, because resiliency has become such a huge part of of the mission there and the military. So small business conference next... Or or this month, this is airing in November down in Phoenix, Arizona.

Talk to us about how you got into the leadership development program, because I've heard about it. I've heard it's been an awesome program for both military and civilian... Federal civilian employees as well as private sector.

Yeah. I was actually in the first class. Again, you know, I wind up in the thing down there at Fort Hood, you know, going from trying to find somebody to solve a problem to being a post president in space of about seventy two hours. And it's a little longer than that, but not much. That's when they decided to do it.

There's a guy, Buddy Barnes. He won't watch this, but I'll put his name in there. And I'm sure folks who are around the AC, when I say that, don't know who he is.

Well known name.

Yeah. Yeah. So Buddy Barnes was the national president-elect at the time. And he called me and said, hey. I want you to apply to this thing.

He was... They'd never done it before. It was the first round of it. He said, apply to this thing. Let's just see what what shakes out.

So I did. I probably had the easiest path into it. Right? Because first class, you know, they don't know what they're looking for, and, you know, I've got this guy that's the president-elect, you know, sort of pushing my application through. I I think I spent...

I spent twenty minutes on the application, I'd be shocked. You know? It's just... It's kinda one of those things. And and I was just as shocked when they picked me.

You know? And then I learned a little bit later about how that process worked, and I wasn't quite that surprised. But, again, that's understanding the aftermath, not necessarily understanding on the front side. But... So now if you wanna do it, it's a much more competitive...

I've been a part of now. So I did the LVP, then I went back and I helped facilitate the LVP for a couple years that I ran up the... Ran the book program because the big joke was Craig doesn't like to read and, oh, here, well, let's make the guy who doesn't like to read. Let's make him run the book program. It was kind of the sort of, you know, life's great ironies and helped out with that for a couple years.

I moved on from doing that onto some other things. But if you're looking to do it now, the most important person to talk to is your RVP. So SAME, the way they're organized, regional vice presidents. The regional vice presidents have a lot of they have a lot of impact on how those leader development candidates are selected. And just, you know, talk to them about what they're looking for.

But I would also say don't be discouraged either. You know, it's one of, again, one of those... I got a lot of humbling lessons out of the army all along the way from... I don't know that I ever applied for a job I mean, that I actually successfully got. So, you know, I had a lot of humbling...

I mean, I didn't even get into West Point the first time. I had to go to Virginia Tech for a year before before I had to get... I got to West Point. So I guess the army started humbling me early on. There's a lot of other leader development programs that are associated with SN and E now.

A lot of the regions are starting their own programs. Some posts are starting their own programs. Because the national program, they have 20 participants a year. A couple years ago, I knew what the applicant versus accepted numbers were. I'd I'd be lying if I told them to you now, and I don't wanna do that to you.

So... But what that

Tremendous resource, though, it sounds like. Yeah. What what what does the program look like? Talk us through. Is it one year?

Yeah. Know,

in addition to the books and, you know, what's what's that look like?

Yeah. It's molded. It's it's morphed and molded a couple of times. They tried to adjust it to make... Keep it relevant.

But it's a year long program. They they take everybody to the joint engineer training conference, the front side of it, and you spend, two or three days. Don't get me... Nobody come back and tell me it was two, but it was actually three or the other way around. I don't really remember.

But you spend two or three days with a professional leadership consultant that they bring in. They go through some of the different, you know, like the Myers Briggs and the DISC, you know. It used to be organized, and I... I've been a little bit dissociated from it now for a little while, so it could be dated here. But it was kinda organized into a...

Into modules of knowing yourself, knowing your team, and knowing the future. So it's kinda that know yourself period or some of those talent inventories that are out there now. Yep. Different ones. Right?

And then the knowing your team is kinda learning some of those small leadership one zero one type things. You know, I sort of make the joke. It's like troop laying procedures with different words because there's, you know, no worries about, you know, making sure their guns are ready kinda thing. And then, you know, knowing the future is a little bit of... That's the part that, to be honest, I I wish I'd gotten a little bit more out of it because I could definitely be leveraging it now in this role, you know, like, business acumen sense and and understanding a little bit of that because that's definitely a delta that we come out of the military with.

And then the the books kinda float on top of that, And the books really serve less to be... It's less to make you an expert on Good to Great and... Or any of the other books. The point of the books is just to use those vignettes to start discussions about leadership and get your fellow classmates talking. And then there are a couple...

Throughout the year, there's... It's all virtual other than the JETC attendance. Throughout the year, there's a couple of webinar type things where they bring in strategic leaders both from the military and from, you know, private industry and then some military who went to private industry just to talk through different leadership lessons that are out there. So that... And then the...

Probably the most impactful thing is they have you do what's called a utilization project. Usually, it's done in teams. You know, a couple of folks will get together and come up with a project that they... It's sort of like... Maybe those who are Eagle Scouts understand, you know, the old Eagle Scout project where, you know, it doesn't matter if you build two benches or four benches.

What matters is did you lead people to to get the benches built. Right? Same kind of concept here. You know, it's... They're looking for how you can show your strategic leadership and thought with the project that you've come up with and then how you kinda get it across the line.

Not necessarily as much leading people because it's... They don't have the people to give you.

But Totally. Conceptual.

Yeah. And some of those have gone on to be some really massive things. Mine wasn't. Mine was basically how to set up a new community of interest. That's because three months after I started the program, the army said, hey.

You need go to Poland. And so, you know, trying to be a battalion x o in Poland while doing this, you know, was a little bit of a challenge. Yeah. So... Yeah.

But it's... I definitely recommend it. But if you if you apply, you don't get selected, know, you there's other resources out there. You know, I wanna reply again. And I've seen...

I think at one point, they wanted to target the young professionals, but I don't think that's really held through in who's been selected along the way. I think... I mean, I was gonna date myself here. I I I was like six months away from not being a young professional and... When I did it, and so it's...

I don't think it's that big of deal.

Awesome. Alright. You don't love books. Any favorite podcasts?

Favorite podcasts? I don't Let me think. I was listening to one for a long time called the Service Academy Business Mastermind. I don't know if you've heard of it or not. Yeah.

Just to me, and we talked about this a little bit early on there before we got on the recording about where all of our classmates are, you know, those who are in congress and those

who Many different paths out there to success.

And so I sort of have this affinity for fellow service academy grads, you know, whether they're from... I mean, there is only one military academy, we'll be clear, but, you know, there's other service academies out there. Just hearing how folks go from that and go out into all these different avenues, all these different ways of being successful, ways of continuing to be leaders, I go back to that.

Think the selfless service to the nation. I talk about it all the time. Like, when take the uniform off, we can still make an impact in our communities and

Yeah. So that's one. I mean, I say I don't like books. I I do have a Kindle, and I I do my best to read. Lately, I've been reading a lot of books on the history of money, interestingly enough.

And not like how to get rich, but just, like, the actual history

Policy policy.

Systems and policy and and all that. I don't know what's gotten me onto that kick lately, you know, whatever the the Kindle advertising algorithm is that's fed those to me.

But That's right.

That's been kind of the latest thing that

I've Any been favorite quotes?

Oh, wow. You had to ask. That's a that's a... There's so many of them out there. Right?

Like, how many of us, you know, people's email taglines along the way? Gosh.

I can give you a pass.

This is gonna sound really, really cheesy. The Nike tagline, is it still just do it? I don't know. That's how It

it is in my mind.

Yeah. Right. Right.

If if it's not, their marketing team has failed them.

That's right. And and and Michael Jordan will always be the guy that I associate to. You know? It doesn't matter.

I could be like Mike.

Exactly. Right? Yeah. I think that one's probably out there. You know, a lot of people get analysis paralysis, and they never try anything.

You know? So that... Just that concept of... Or that idea of always being looking forward with action and looking forward to to find something that it it sounds kind of banal and stupid coming out, but at the same time, it No.

I I don't think so at all. I I agree a 100% with it. And funny enough, I don't think we've ever talked about this, but I contemplated while at West Point getting the Nike swoosh tattoo on my on my foot. A girl I knew had gotten it like as if her foot was a sneaker, and because of the just do it slogan, I had an affinity for Nike.

It was a swimmer. You just wanted the guys behind you to see that. Right? Was that what it was?

Alright. Last last rapid fire question, and the floor is yours. If you could have dinner with three people dead or alive, who would they be?

Oh, holy cow. Well, the first would be my great grandmother because she'd have to cook it. That that that would be the first, so I guess that's an easy one.

What would she cook?

Fried chicken, green beans, biscuits, mashed potatoes, sweet tea. I mean, all the stuff that, you know... My great grandparents owned a farm. All the stuff that, you know, farm people cook. Right?

Like that...

Love it.

So that's the easiest. She's the dead. I'll go with a category of people. I won't go with a specific person. Alright.

Love to have dinner with a president. Just... I'm not a real politically motivated person, but just think of the challenge. I I would spend a time as an aide, and the first thing I saw was just the very wide right and left limits that my boss had, you know, and it was like, wow. Like, how how difficult...

What's going on in his brain? So I would love to have a you know, just to know, like, what... Like, hear them talk about the challenges that they faced. I would have to go with... I'm gonna give a very specific name and I'll tell you why.

Charlie Duke. I don't know if you know who Charlie Duke is or not. I'll tell everybody who he is. He may be dead, and he may be alive. I don't know.

He was not dead about nine years ago. Okay. So he was the last... Was part of the last mission to the moon. And I have a little bit of a personal connection with him.

He's actually my parents' best friend's neighbor. And so I was down there at my parents' friend's house and playing with my friend... Playing with my kid in the yard. This very nice old man in an old square body 70 Chevy drives out the driveway next door, and my dad's buddy says, yeah. That's our astronaut neighbor.

And I I thought he kinda meant, like, you know He's

out there?

That kinda guy. And he sort of laughed it off, he goes, no. No. No. It's Charlie Duke.

He's one of the 12 men who walked on the moon. And I'm like, wait a minute. You've been the guy who who walked on the moon living next door. So he was also, I I believe, and I've never asked him this, but I think the the story is that he was also the guy on the radio for Houston, We Have a Problem. He was the one who actually received that call when Apollo 13 had that.

So, you know, again, just hearing his stories about that experience. And he owned a brewery. I mean, like, who doesn't wanna have dinner with a guy who owned... Like, already worked

Sounds like an awesome eclectic guy.

For Budweiser or something like that after he left the army. He had, like, a distributorship or something. Or after he left the NASA, he had, like, distributorship or something like that. So, yeah, that would be the three.

Alright. I love it. Close this out. Any any parting wisdom? Any parting thoughts?

Self advertisement for the, the meet and hunt team? What... The floor is yours.

Somebody's watching this, you say it's contract officer. Don't tell your lawyers that you watched it. You know, just give me a call. Yeah. You know, just...

If the target is for the folks who are transitioning, I would just say, hey. You know, if you're in the military now, one thing you need to remember, there... There's only two ways out. Whether you do five years and and transition out kinda like some folks did or you do twenty like I did or you do thirty like some folks do, the only other way out of it is in a box, and I don't think any of us wanna do that. So start thinking about what the next thing is now.

You know, start figuring out what you want your life to be, and don't be afraid to ask questions. I didn't ask enough. Right? And then it's not that I'm not unhappy where it's not that I'm not happy where I am. I'm very happy where I am.

It's just so many things as I've gone back to the process of talking to other people and collecting my thoughts, I realized I didn't think to ask. And the last one is don't be scared of it. It... I think a lot of folks, the reason they do that, keeping it at arm's length is because they're scared of it. It...

It's... It'll be fine.

Embrace it. Yeah. Embrace the change. And one of the reasons we do this is to be of help. You can connect with me on LinkedIn.

You can connect with Craig on LinkedIn and any number of... I haven't met a veteran that transitioned that isn't willing to help anybody else gone through the process. So look us up on LinkedIn. And, Craig, I gotta thank you for your time. Best of luck with your role at Beet and Hunt.

Appreciate it.

And, beat Navy.

Yes, please.

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