HOST: JENNIFER (00:01):

Welcome to episode number 35 of the Going for Greatness podcast, conversations with unbelievably gritty people. These conversations will help you propel your life beyond the ordinary. Today, we are talking about the cancel culture. We'll dive right in to figure out how to survive if you are canceled. And to do that, we're speaking to international public relations guru Evan Nierman. Evan wrote the book called Cancel Culture Curse from Rage to Redemption. In a world that's gone mad, how true that is. So buckle up. We will dish out some tips and tricks on avoiding being canceled and what to do if you are canceled. Now, let's dive in. I want to understand what an average person can do now to have an opinion about something and not offend someone. How do you walk that line? 

GUEST: EVAN (01:03):

It is tough today because you will inevitably do or say something that upsets someone else, even if it's inadvertent. So, there are a few things that you can do to avoid the likelihood of that happening. And that wouldn't focus on hot-button issues like politics or religion or get embroiled in posting about the culture wars and the topics that are lightning rods for controversy. So, simply avoiding some of those is probably a good practice. If you're a solopreneur or a small business owner, you must be very careful. And so, I think I like to tell people two lessons about social media. These are critical for parents to impart to their kids, which are to share with care and post with purpose because if you do that, you'll eliminate many things that get people into trouble.

GUEST: EVAN (01:59):

Hit pause before you post and think about whether I am revealing too much information, like personal information, or that I'm away from home, for instance. Don't post in real-time when you're on vacation because then it's a notice to the world: Hey, my house is empty. And similarly, before you put something out there, think about the impact you're trying to make or could potentially make. If someone reads and misinterprets this. Is this putting you in a light in which you want to be viewed? Or is this potentially something that isn't going to age well, that's gonna look bad, or is it going to upset others?

HOST: JENNIFER (02:38):

No, I have two teenagers, and they're impulsive. For example, they may not understand the gravity of singing a song, recording it, and putting it on TikTok.   I've had experiences with many kids in my car singing along.  These issues can be tricky for going about your everyday life. Things are entirely misunderstood.  You wrote this fantastic book called "Cancel Culture Curse from Rage to Redemption in a World Gone Mad," which is a fabulous title. I love it.  

GUEST: EVAN (03:13):

Thank You.

HOST: JENNIFER (03:13):

What does one do say you get canceled, say by accident? You know, you post something on Facebook, and people take offense to it. You did not post with purpose. What is the playbook to stop the insanity of being canceled?

GUEST: EVAN (03:27):

There's an entire chapter in the book that lays out the playbook. If you want more details you can access the book; you can get it at Barnes and Noble, wherever books are sold, amazon.com. You can listen to it on Audible, where I'm the narrator. So to, it'll be like, I'm reading it right to you,

HOST: JENNIFER WEISSMANN (03:46):

A bedtime story.

GUEST: EVAN (03:48):

I'm not saying it's a bedtime story because I don't want anyone to think that maybe I'm saying I want to climb into bed with the listener again.  I'm airing the side of caution.

HOST: JENNIFER (04:00):

Oh my goodness, I have not read the entire book because look what I did. I spoke without purpose there. I didn't pause and think about that. You're right. Okay, so we can buy the book,

GUEST: EVAN (04:10):

You can get the book, and you can absorb the content and playbook for how to navigate it is in there. Now, I'll tell you anyway, even before you read it, part of it is a mindset, and you have to adopt this mindset that you will not be canceled. You have to refuse to be canceled. So if you find yourself under fire, you're getting criticized, you're drawing heat, you have to fortify yourself, and you have to know that it's incumbent upon you to get into the discussion and defend yourself. So, if you didn't mean to offend people, you need to tell them I wasn't trying to offend anyone. Here's what I meant. If someone's misinterpreting it, you have to be willing to get into the discussion and set the record straight. Because if you don't tell your story or explain it, no one else will explain it.

GUEST: EVAN (05:00):

Now, you raised a vital thing, which is a considerable risk for kids these days, and that is simply singing along, especially to a rap song, which can get you in a load of trouble because of the use of profanity and the common use of the N-word. It's an instant way to get yourself into trouble. And so, not doing that is a fundamental thing that parents should remind their kids. And if you avoid that, you'll prevent yourself from coming under fire.

HOST: JENNIFER (05:40):

That is an actual hundred percent issue with kids because they love rap music, and it is chockful of words that are inappropriate to say, and they record themselves. And you feel like a little nutty parent by saying -  stop singing that. Don't sing that. Stop recording. This is not okay because it's taken out of context.  Like the woman on the airplane a few weeks ago who apparently had a meltdown and then she refused to be canceled? I don't know the details of her meltdown, but she's singing her praises and back on top. She was all over the news, all over the media. Do you know who I'm talking about?

GUEST: EVAN (06:20):

I do. And I saw her post afterward, and she adopted the position of refusing to be canceled. And she attempted to explain herself. She tried to make things right. And so I give her a lot of credit for doing that. And, if you watch her video, she says, you know, I became famous and not for a good reason.  I do think she did a good job of trying to explain it. People also need to understand when you're in a crisis, not just a target of a cancel culture attack. If you're in a crisis itself, you have an opportunity because the spotlight is on you, and you have a megaphone, and you can get your message out. So that woman who had the meltdown on the plane instantly got so many followers on social media, and she was able to use her soapbox to get her message out there. Will it revive her career prospects? I don't know. Maybe the jury's still out on that, but she deserves credit for owning her mistake and attempting to put it into context.

HOST: JENNIFER (07:21):

Say you're canceled, and you fight your way back. Do you get off social media at that point, or do you learn your lesson and post with purpose?  Trying to bridge that gap between not offending and having an opinion, even in a non-social media venue, is tricky, right?  At a dinner party or a social event, it's very tricky.  

GUEST: EVAN (07:45):

People must determine on a case-by-case basis whether it benefits or harms them to be active on social media. And so, some people who lack impulse control or maybe don't have a filter might be better off being in a closed network. So, a text group among like-minded friends. So if they feel this compulsion to share their opinion, at least they're sharing it with people who know them and may disagree with them but won't try to ruin their lives. The problem is everybody's connected through these social platforms. And so once you hit post, it's out there in the world, and people can take what you've said, interpret it correctly, or misinterpret it, and rally to take you down. And you know, the reason I wrote the book in the first place was I was seeing how everyday citizens were getting their careers completely demolished, finding themselves unable not just to explain what happened, getting beat up so badly in the mainstream press on social media with their employers getting bullied by mobs of cancel vultures to where they didn't just lose their jobs, they lost their future career prospects because this tidal wave, this avalanche of negative coverage then stays with them online.

GUEST: EVAN (09:07):

I'm a believer that people can make mistakes. We are going to make mistakes. We all are going to make mistakes. We have to get back to a time in our society when people can learn and grow and be free to make a mistake and not be permanently punished for it.

HOST: JENNIFER (09:25):

I love what you're saying. I hope the public shaming ends.  I'm looking forward to reading the entirety of your book. Evan Nierman, founder of Red Banyan Public Relations, and I'm thrilled you made the time to speak to me this morning.  

GUEST: EVAN (09:41):

Thank you, Jennifer. I appreciate you having me on. This was a great discussion.

HOST: JENNIFER (09:44):

Thanks for listening to this episode of The Going for Greatness show. If you found insight on avoiding being canceled, maybe you want not to bogart this and pass this episode on to a friend. By the way, there are 34 other amazing conversations. They all feature badass individuals who fearlessly recount mind-blowing journeys, whether in business or climbing to the tippy top of Mount Everest. All of these conversations showcase the unbelievable human spirit triumphing over adversity. I'm your host, Jennifer Weissmann, and I look forward to connecting with you next time on The Going for Greatness Show.