April 5, 2025

When the Word’s Don’t Match the Method Pt 2

When the Word’s Don’t Match the Method Pt 2

A case study in how the words many churches say contradict the actual methods they are using

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A case study in how the words many churches say contradict the actual methods they are using

WEBVTT

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Looking at our world from a theological perspective.

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This is the Theology Central podcast making Theology Central. Good afternoon, everyone.

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It is Saturday, April fifth, twenty twenty five. It is

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currently four nineteen pm Central Time, and I'm coming to

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you live from the Theology Central studio located right here

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in Abilene, Texas. Well, we're going to continue what we

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started in the last broadcast. I hope this proves to

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be beneficial. Things did not go quite as smoothly, maybe

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as I wanted them to go in the last broadcast.

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Maybe I didn't have it mapped out perfectly. The one

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thing I never do very well is try to really

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figure out how long something is going to take. I

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should have known, Hey, if you're going to do a

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review of this audio interview and it's what sixteen seventeen

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minutes long, you're not gonna be able to get anything

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else done in that episode because to review sixteen or

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seventeen minutes of audio takes you about an hour and

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a half. So why do you have fifteen pages of

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notes and that you're going to do this and then

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you're going to do this. You're never going to get

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to that. I should know that. But I still, after

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all of these years, continue to make that mistake, and

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so sometimes it kind of messes with the flow of things.

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But I'm gonna try to put it all back together.

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I'm gonna try to walk us through this. I hope

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you're ready. We're gonna go. We're gonna be visiting a

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church in Indiana as where we're ultimately aheaded We're gonna

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be talking about a church in Indiana. But let me

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remind you of what we're really trying to do. Okay,

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because people will see this as Oh listen to this episode.

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It's a hit piece on this church in Indiana. You've

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missed the point. Oh listen to this it's an expose

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on this church in Indiana. You're missing the point. What

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I'm trying to do is give a case study, a

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discussion about a bigger problem in American evangelicalism, in American Christianity,

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and it goes way past the church in Indiana. It

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goes way past this church that we're using for a

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case study. This church is really it's almost irrelevant to

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the story itself.

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It's about this.

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Bigger, bigger issue because what we're trying to look at.

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What I'm trying to explain, and I stated this in

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the introduction in the last episode, as I'm trying to

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provide you a careful look at how churches and pastors

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can say all the right things about God, say all

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the right things about preaching. They can say all the

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right things about the authority of the scriptures. They can

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even say all the right things about what the church

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should do and what the church should be. And even

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though they say all of the right words, they can

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turn around and build and operate a church that contradicts

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every single thing they say. And they can do this

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in such a way that the people in the pew

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will be like, my church is committed to this, and

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it can committed to this, and it's committed to this

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and not even see. No, your church is doing literally

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the opposite of all the things you say you're committed to,

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but nobody can see it because somehow they're able to

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market this in a way that works. I'm going to

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try to explore, and I started this in the last broadcast,

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but I'm going to continue trying to explore how words

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and methods, in many cases quietly, maybe silently in some ways,

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sit as far as nobody's saying, hey, guys, we're contradicting ourselves.

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Nobody's going to mention it, but they ultimately the words

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and the methods drift apart. Everything may sound biblical, everything

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may sound faithful, everything may sound that it's philologically grounded.

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But guess what, in reality, it's none of those things.

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It's something completely opposite. How it's marketed. What the words

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are used is not what you actually get.

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But I think all you have to do is sell it,

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say it, convince the people of it, and they will

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buy into it, not even realizing the contradiction. I don't

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know how pastors pull this off, but they obviously do frequently,

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because it's very common today to hear pastors say preaching

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should glorify God. The Bible is our found foundation. Were

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We are here to build up believers, not entertain consumers.

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We believe in the expository preaching. We read the text,

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explain the text, apply the text.

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Because all of those things sound like convictions.

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They sound good, they sound like they're offering clarity to

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the purpose and the function of the church. But what

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happens when the actual structure of the church, the actual

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Sunday worship service, the actual content of that preaching and

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maybe even the messaging on the website seem to tell

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a completely different story. What happens when the form undercuts

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the function. I'm not here to criticize personalities, but I'm

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here to investigate a larger problem that touches thousands of

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churches and millions of Christians. Can a church say it's

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committed to biblical preaching while using the stage like a platform,

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using the Bible like a slogan, and the sermon like

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it's a motivational boost. What happens when the method actually

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contradicts the message. That's the question or the questions that

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I'm trying to discuss and talk about. Now, I got

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more here I could say, but I think that you're getting.

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Hopefully you get what I'm trying to do here and

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what I'm trying to accomplish. Now, let me state this again.

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I stated it in the first episode. I'm miscing to

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state it again. My concepts, my ideas, my philosophy of

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what church should be. I understand my philosophy and ideas

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will never work. They will never ever work. That people

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don't want my ideas, Nobody likes my philosophy of what

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church should be. They will say they do because if

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they hear me say, what should the church be? The

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church should be a place of focusing on nothing more

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than the infallible and.

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Errant Word of God.

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It should be focused on teaching, preaching discipleship. It should

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be focused on teaching theology, doctrine, church history. We're not

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here to entertain. We have no fun food and fellowship

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and activities. You show up to learn, you show up

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to study. People will say amen, until they end up

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in a church like that, and they're like, well, it

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feels too much like college. It feels like a seminary.

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I don't like this, and what about this? And I

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think we need to get together and have a picnic,

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and I think we need to have an ice cream

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social and I think we need to have small groups

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where we can hold hands and see Kumbaya, and I

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think we need and all of a sudden, all those

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they sounded like they wanted one thing. But then I'm like, well,

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you just want what every other church in America offers.

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So then why do you say you but all those

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churches in America who offers all of those other things?

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What do all the statistics keep pointing out Christians are

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biblically illiterate, philologically illiterate, they're illiterate about church history. Yet

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everyone says, oh, we even need to find a good church. No,

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you want a church that offers all those other things.

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So I understand my perspective is rejected. My perspective is outdated.

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It is seen as archaic, crazy, insane, and I and

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trying to actually utilize my idea it failed miserably and

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so and I'm willing to accept that. But guess what,

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even though I will acknowledge from a human perspective that

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my ideas are foolish, that my ideas are they fail,

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they don't work and practice, I'm willing to admit that

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from a human perspective, but I'm never going to change

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my opinion from the moment I became a Christian as

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a teenager, and I walked into the church, and I'm like,

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I don't need your stupid games. I don't need your

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lock ins, I don't need your pizza parties. I don't

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need any of this stuff. I can entertain myself. Could

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you teach me something? For crying out loud? This place

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is a joke, all right. I've been saying this since

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I was a teenager. It's never changed. I've never wavered

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one bit that I'm sick and tired of the church

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trying to act like it's there for all these other

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purposes now. And that's fine, Obviously that's what everybody wants.

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They say they don't, but they do. So here's what happened.

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I got on YouTube. I saw a video the church

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is starving its own people, and I'm like, WHOA, that

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sounds really good, that looks awesome. The thumbnail artwork for

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it was a pastor standing in the center aisle of

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the church. You got pews on either side, You've got

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all the people, and he's holding a plate of chicken nuggets, right,

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And it's the idea that these people are starving and

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even if we do feed them, we just give them

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chicken nuggets. The people are starving the church. The church

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is not doing things right. So I listened to the interview,

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and in the interview, the pastor sounds so good, right,

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He's very articulate. He talked about the purpose of preaching

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like this, and I'm quoting from the interview that we

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reviewed in the first episode and the last episode.

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He stated this, I quote, preaching is giving.

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Voice to what God wants said. Oh that sounds good,

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doesn't it. Right preaching is giving voice to what God

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wants said, what God has already said, and is never

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changing word to an ever changing culture.

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Oh you could write that down.

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That's how good preaching is giving voice to what God

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wants said, what God has already said, and is never

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changing word to an ever changing culture. He said that

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his priority was glorifying God, edifying believers, inviting non believers.

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He criticized the megachurch model that caters to seekers at

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the expense of feeding the church. It's like, sir, and

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I'm quoting, it's like serving chicken nuggets every week while

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a group of people is starving. If you just read

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the Bible and explain the Bible, that's at least a

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base hit. All of it sounded like someone committed to

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the faithful preaching of the Word, someone resisting the trend

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of turning Sunday worship into a spectacle. It sounded so good.

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I was like, oooh, tell me more. I want to

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know about this church. Let me look this church up.

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I was ready. I was interesting, and then things start

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falling apart around the thirteen minute mark, And that's what

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we're going to go back to because at the thirteen

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minute mark, some kind of weird disconnect happens, so a

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glitch in the matrix. I don't know what happens. Something

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goes weird because the interviewer obviously doesn't know much about

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the pastor he's interviewing. Because the interviewer begins to be

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basically speak against what's going on in the modern church.

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This worship tainment where it's is it entertainment, is it worship?

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It's a mixture of entertainment and worship. It's worship worship tainment, right,

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and talking about trends and among some young men to

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kind of leave the evangelical circus and go find more historical,

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liturgical base kind of churches. And I was kind of like, oh, okay, well,

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clearly this pastor is against that, but almost are against

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the worship tayment and the and the circus. And I'm like, okay,

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well then this is good. But immediately you begin to

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realize something's wrong because once this interviewer asked this very

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long winded question that goes on for about two minutes,

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the pastor immediately begins to push back. He's not he's

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not rude, he's not explicit, but he kind of like, well,

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let's let's not go too far, and he begins to

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try to justify this worship tament that is present in

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many churches. And it's kind of weird because the first

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part he was like, you know, I'm not like I

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don't want these watered down ted talks.

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I'm all about giving people the meat.

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And it's like it sounded so good, but right here

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in the interview, you can already tell something goes haywire.

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And I believe this is the first sign that all

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the stuff he said completely contradicts everything his church is

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really about. Because if the interviewer knew anything about this church,

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if you just go to their website, what's right there

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on the front page a big stage, led screens, big lights.

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It looks like a concert. It looks like a stage,

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it looks like worship tainment. So I don't know if

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the interviewer did not know that, I don't. It's really weird.

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So we're gonna go back and then we're gonna take

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this apart. Then what we're going to try to do

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is that we're gonna do a little examination of the

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church website just to show you more contradiction between all

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of these wonderful things that he said versus what they

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actually do. And then we're gonna get to the sermon.

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I don't know if we're gonna to the summer. We're

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gonna try on Isaiah chapter fifty, and it's a it's

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a complete train wreck. It contradicts everything he says about

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what preaching's supposed to be. It's it's I mean, just

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from the beginning, it feels like a watered down ted

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talk is what it feels. Even though he's like, no,

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the we teach. The focus of our church is teaching

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and preaching, and it's just it's so maddening. But are

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you ready to do this? Here we go, So we're

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gonna go to the interviewers, getting ready to ask a

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long winded question. Goes on for like two and a

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half minutes, right three minutes. Now you're gonna hear the

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interviewer say the word sacrament sacramento multiple times. The pastor

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who's clearly not a pastor of a Sacramental church, he's

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a pastor of an evangelical megachurch in Indiana. He does

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it correct it, which already bothers me. I'm like, well,

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if you're all worried about theology and not watering things down,

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he should immediately say, whoa wait a minute, we don't

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believe in a s sacramental system. Sacramental system has some

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major phiological implications. We would hold the ordinances because if

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it's a sacrament, then it's a visible means of grace.

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It's salvific. That means baptism actually washes away sin. It

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doesn't just picture the washing whibsin.

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It actually does it. It's actually regenerative.

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And the Lord's Supper is not just remembering the blood

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of Christ who paid for our sins, but by partaking

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of the Lord's Supper I receive the forgiveness of sins.

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That when it becomes a sacrament, becomes a means of grace,

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and we get into a whole philological issue. The pastor

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doesn't even correct the interviewer. He just ignores that, which

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is another red flag. If you're all about theology and

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you're well, then this is a good time to have

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a good theological discussion. But okay, so we're gonna listen

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to this and then we're gonna take this apart because

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a lot of things go wrong really fat once the

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pastor starts answering, this interview.

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Just goes off. Every thing falls apart here we go.

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One thing that I'm starting to really think through is

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when maturing believers, it seems like there's like a conversation happening.

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And I mean, you know, this is probably more than

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I do, like being in ministry for so long, but

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there's always cycles, and people seem to be more wanting tradition,

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more wanting something rooted or sacramental, or a liturgy of

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some sort to redecrete every once in a while, to

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go back to a hymn every once in a while,

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to actually take I would actually like to talk to

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you about your theology on both the eucharists slash communion

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and baptism, like kind of what you think about that.

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But it seems like historical Protestantism was really like firm

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on sacraments and liturgy, trying to have some type of

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rhythm of spiritual disciplines. And I think somewhere along the

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line we were like this is fundamental, this is traditionalist.

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Like we're just being legalistic now, like we don't even

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know what these things are talking about or care about them.

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We just do them and it's not coming from the

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heart anymore or something like that. But of course society

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just always circles back around, and there's all these kind

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of stats that are coming out, especially young men that

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want something more simple, want something more slow, or we're

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in right now just the fastest paced lifestyle in human history,

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Like we're just constantly bombarded.

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And then I mean, I think, to my opinion.

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Now a fair critique is now we walk into church

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and it's kind of entertainment as well, and so like

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we have these lights, we have these like just parading

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smoke and all these this kind of what people are

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calling worship tainment. And I don't know how I feel

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about that yet, but worship tainment. And it's like, man,

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I thought this was a place I could come escape

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to to be a little bit more slow, to be

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a little bit more reverential, to be with my believers,

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not in a dark room looking at this super lit

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up stage where everything is just so timed out and

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I have no breath, And I'm starting to kind of

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understand that. And I don't know if it's because I'm

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just kind of growing in my faith and wanting to

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slow down a little bit with my relationship with God

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and try not to distract myself and just be as

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intentional as possible with all my disciplines. But it seems

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like that's kind of what even the outside world is

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kind of expecting, Like when they think of Christianity, when

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they think of religion, they think of something to kind

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of hit the brakes and to answer questions. Don't entertain me,

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don't try to slide of hand me. I just want

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the real thing is what do you guys truly believe?

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And then believers on the other side are saying like, hey,

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maybe we've been eating chicken nuggets for a while, we

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kind of actually want to move on to that next meal.

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How do you feel about that?

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Do you think that there is ways that a larger

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church can pivot to answer some of these things, especially

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with young men, that like are you against liturgy?

316
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Are you against creeds? Are you against hims?

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Are you against bringing back communion to kind of be

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a more sacramental type of mentality? And like are you

319
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hearing any of those conversations in your own Like I

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guess pastor groups people like believers coming up to you

321
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and saying like, hey, can we slow it down a

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little bit?

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Like what are you hearing on that side.

324
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Okay, Now, if you're listening to that question, obviously the

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interviewer is like, hey, you know, people are tired of

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the entertainment or the worship tainment. They want something different.

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They want something where they can ask questions. They want

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something deeper. They don't want chicken nuggets. They want something deeper.

329
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And he asked these questions because the pastor at the

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beginning of this interview seem to assure him that he's

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on the same page. He doesn't want to water down

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ted talk. He wants he wants to preach the meat

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of God's Word. He wants to expound the scriptures, expository preaching,

334
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teach the scriptures. He goes against the trend of megachurches.

335
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So the interviewer is asking a question that seems to

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make sense because the assumption here is that this pastor

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is not like all of these other mega churches because

338
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he said all the right words. What this interviewer doesn't

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know this pastor is literally the very thing you are describing.

340
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He's feeding the people chicken nuggets, from what I can tell,

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And we'll look into it to see if you agree.

342
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But if you'll just go to the the church website.

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I did this in the first message in the first

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episode on this I'll do it again. Go to the

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church website yourself, go to the go to t p

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C C dot O RG T the letter t p

347
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CC dot O RG Trader's Point Christian Church in Indianapolis, Indiana.

348
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And the very first thing you see when it opens up,

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dark room, bright stage lights. You've got drums, you've got guitars,

350
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you've got a keyboard, you've got a praise band of one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

351
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eight nine people. Oh and you got someone and they

352
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got a cameraman. Oh and you got two big, big

353
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screens on high side. You got staging, you got lighting.

354
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It looks like a concert. It's worshiptainment. It's literally he see.

355
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It's just so weird because like you're literally talking to

356
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a pastor who that's his church. That's what he I

357
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know he didn't sound like that at the beginning. He

358
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said all the right words, but it's the same thing.

359
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It's it's literally making the point that I make. There

360
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is this constant disconnect in evangelicalism and even many reform churches.

361
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They talk a big game. We want to be about teaching.

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We want to be about preaching, and then when you

363
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really break it down, you just a you're just a

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reformed version of what every other church is. You got

365
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your small groups. It's about community, it's about this, it's

366
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about that, it's about this activity, and we're gonna do this,

367
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and we're gonna do this, and we're gonna get together

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for this, and we're gonna get together for this, and

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it's all the exact same thing you just mouth. May

370
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have some times where you emphasize theology, but other than that,

371
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it's it's the same template. It's like it's like one

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day someone put together here's how churches should operate. They

373
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send it out to everyone, and every pastor was like,

374
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that's how we'll do church. We'll just wrap it up

375
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up in our own theology. But that we're all going

376
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to use the same template. Our websites are going to

377
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look the same, the language is gonna look the same,

378
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we're gonna use the same buzzwords. Every It's like someone

379
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just went to a factory and said, okay, what's the

380
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template for church and turn on the equipment. There's another one.

381
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There's another one, and everyone's like, okay, now it's it's basically,

382
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here's the template. Now you just put your theology on

383
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top of it. That's all it is. There's nobody can

384
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be unique or creative because everybody thinks this is what

385
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church is supposed to be. And then at the same

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time you convince the people going, my church is all

387
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about the Bible, it's all about teaching, it's about the

388
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mutual God's Word.

389
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And it's like your.

390
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Church is just like every other church.

391
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It's a community club.

392
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You just may throw in a little extra teaching maybe maybe.

393
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And then even then, nobody's actually doing hermonutics. They're only

394
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regurgitating the hermoneutical system that they all agree with. Nobody's

395
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actually doing theology. They're just regurgitating the philological system that

396
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you have to be to agree upon. Nobody's doing theology.

397
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It's just it's maddening, all right, it's maddening.

398
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So that question is really good. Now, the whole sacramental

399
00:23:17.319 --> 00:23:19.039
thing is crazy because you have to get into a

400
00:23:19.079 --> 00:23:22.160
major what do you mean, go sacramental? What are you what?

401
00:23:22.279 --> 00:23:22.400
Oh?

402
00:23:22.759 --> 00:23:24.559
And then yeah, we can get a.

403
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:25.359
Whole discussion there.

404
00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:28.119
But now this pastor who talked a big game in

405
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the first part of the interview, what is he going

406
00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:34.079
to do? What is he going to do? Now if

407
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:36.440
he's honestly be like, whoa, well, wait a minute here.

408
00:23:37.160 --> 00:23:39.440
I don't know about this word worship tainment. But on

409
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my church, man, we got the staging, we got the lighting,

410
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we got the production, we got the smoke machine.

411
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We go all in here, right, like, just defend it.

412
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But he he's going to try to not defend it.

413
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He's going to defend it.

414
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:55.599
You just what, just here we go. This is how

415
00:23:55.599 --> 00:23:56.480
he's going to defend it.

416
00:23:58.119 --> 00:24:00.640
Yeah, No, I appreciate that. Wow, man, there's a lot there.

417
00:24:00.799 --> 00:24:01.200
There's a lot.

418
00:24:01.240 --> 00:24:02.720
I mean, I think, first of all, I would say, like,

419
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:05.000
I'm totally with you in this sense. I've got a

420
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heart for young men as well. And I think really

421
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what they're desiring is like just authenticity and real talk.

422
00:24:12.640 --> 00:24:14.720
Which is why I think they're attracted to podcasts like

423
00:24:14.799 --> 00:24:18.720
Rogan and Jordan Peterson and those types of things, is

424
00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:20.640
they're just like man. Just in fact, I think there's

425
00:24:20.680 --> 00:24:22.480
been the watering down of a lot of pulpits. So

426
00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:24.359
the young men are running a podcast. I think there's

427
00:24:24.359 --> 00:24:25.839
a lot of stuff that's happening in all of that.

428
00:24:26.039 --> 00:24:26.759
I'll preach.

429
00:24:29.160 --> 00:24:32.000
The watering down of pulpits are leading a lot of

430
00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:37.759
people to podcast. Yeah, I would know. What's funny. He

431
00:24:37.799 --> 00:24:42.519
doesn't think his pulpit is watered down. That's the funny part. Now,

432
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.359
when we listen to the sermon, you can tell me

433
00:24:45.400 --> 00:24:47.839
if it's watered down. He doesn't. He doesn't want water

434
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:51.200
down ted talks. He thinks he's preaching the meat of

435
00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:54.720
God's word. And it's like, I think you're literally you're

436
00:24:54.759 --> 00:24:57.599
the ones giving the chicken nuggets. It's so weird how

437
00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:00.440
on one hand he doesn't say that he's the very

438
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.599
thing that he's criticizing. It is bizarre, but I will

439
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.599
completely agree and my and my estimation the pulpit is

440
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:10.960
not a place where you can there's no real reality,

441
00:25:10.960 --> 00:25:15.079
real discussions and struggles, no real talk. That's why people

442
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:18.599
go to podcasts because the pulpit is watered down. It's

443
00:25:18.599 --> 00:25:20.519
not all. The church is not a place where you

444
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:24.359
can come to struggle, do theology, do hermoneutics. It's just

445
00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:26.880
a place where you get here's what our team says,

446
00:25:26.920 --> 00:25:29.559
and we're just gonna recite what our team says Monday

447
00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:32.839
or well, I'm not at Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday,

448
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.160
just Sunday after Sunday, after Sunday, after Sunday there and

449
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:40.880
then everyone just put oh, just man church, church, church, church, church, church.

450
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:43.839
But at least they are even acknowledging. Hey, watered down

451
00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:46.759
pulpits lead people to podcasts, and then pastors get mad

452
00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:51.240
at podcasts. These podcasters out there criticizing the church. What

453
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:55.279
is wrong with these podcasters? They all need to shut up? Okay, well, okay,

454
00:25:55.279 --> 00:25:57.519
well I've heard plenty of pastors yell and scream about

455
00:25:57.519 --> 00:26:04.960
the podcasters. I could say a lot. Okay, what's stopping you, pastor?

456
00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:07.119
I mean, you have a building, you have a church,

457
00:26:07.200 --> 00:26:10.000
you have a budget. Does it take you a lot

458
00:26:10.039 --> 00:26:13.240
to turn on a microphone and talk about whatever you can?

459
00:26:13.319 --> 00:26:15.240
You can record your own you know, and you do

460
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:19.079
realize you're searching. I hate when pastors say those podcasters.

461
00:26:19.519 --> 00:26:23.599
If your sermons are online and there's an RSS feed,

462
00:26:24.039 --> 00:26:26.279
you're a podcaster. I don't care if you want to

463
00:26:26.279 --> 00:26:29.200
call yourself a pastor or a church. If your sermons

464
00:26:29.200 --> 00:26:32.680
are online and they're using an RSS feed to be

465
00:26:32.799 --> 00:26:37.200
fed to different platforms, you are a podcaster. Okay, whether

466
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:39.599
you like it or no, just our sermons are online

467
00:26:39.759 --> 00:26:44.119
and a podcast format because there's an RSS feed and

468
00:26:44.160 --> 00:26:46.759
then this podcast app can pick them up in this podcast.

469
00:26:47.240 --> 00:26:48.200
You're a podcaster.

470
00:26:48.640 --> 00:26:50.000
I hate to break it to you.

471
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.440
You're a podcaster, right, so but all right, so I

472
00:26:53.480 --> 00:26:56.359
do agree that the water down pulpits lead people to

473
00:26:56.400 --> 00:26:59.720
look for something more. And it's weird because so many

474
00:26:59.759 --> 00:27:02.599
people have been criticizing water down pulpits and the church

475
00:27:02.680 --> 00:27:05.160
is not giving me enough, but they will only go

476
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:09.720
to churches that continues to give them all the other stuff.

477
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:11.440
If you really want a church to give you what

478
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:13.599
you say you want, then all the other stuff's got

479
00:27:13.640 --> 00:27:16.200
to go so that they can focus on that. But

480
00:27:16.240 --> 00:27:18.319
once you get that, then you don't really want that

481
00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:20.279
because you still want the I don't think the people

482
00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:26.440
on the pew really know what they want. If that

483
00:27:27.000 --> 00:27:33.519
pastor speaking, he has twelve thousand people twelve thousand people

484
00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:36.359
show up to their weekly services. Now, depending on where

485
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:39.480
you read the statistics, some have it at nine thousand something,

486
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:42.960
some have it at ten. Somewhere between nine and twelve

487
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:47.920
thousand people weekly show up to this church. And he

488
00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:50.519
doesn't think he has a watered down pulpit. Well, you

489
00:27:50.559 --> 00:27:53.720
can draw your own conclusion. Sorry, let's see where how

490
00:27:53.759 --> 00:27:55.599
he's going to defend all of this here we go.

491
00:27:57.559 --> 00:27:59.240
Is that from a sermon is not from the Bible,

492
00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:02.160
that it's a culture observation. But so I do think

493
00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:06.720
that that, uh, there's lots of young men wanting something substantial. Now,

494
00:28:06.759 --> 00:28:09.279
whether that comes in the form of liturgy and like

495
00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:12.599
slow it down and it could be maybe not. Like

496
00:28:12.759 --> 00:28:14.440
I just think that really, I think we got to

497
00:28:14.480 --> 00:28:16.720
like cut through all the melees to say, hey, like,

498
00:28:16.920 --> 00:28:19.279
what does God's word like really have to say on

499
00:28:19.319 --> 00:28:20.599
that give it to me straight?

500
00:28:20.839 --> 00:28:22.880
What's how do I how do I follow after him?

501
00:28:23.519 --> 00:28:24.000
Help help me?

502
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:25.880
How to do hard things in this culture? I think

503
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:28.960
that's a that's baseline, and I would I'm with you

504
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:33.000
in the sense that like, uh, once again, we could

505
00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:35.480
look at all this stuff, you know, worship tainment, we

506
00:28:35.519 --> 00:28:37.519
could we it's all in the way that we describe it.

507
00:28:38.000 --> 00:28:41.759
So billowing smoke, flashy lights. I've seen that done really

508
00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:45.720
poorly and tacky. I'm seen it done quite well, you know.

509
00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:47.680
And I think we talked about this a little bit.

510
00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:50.400
I don't want to overstate this because once again, we

511
00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:52.960
don't need to get lost in the weeds. But oftentimes

512
00:28:53.000 --> 00:28:54.880
a critique is what you're just trying to be like

513
00:28:54.920 --> 00:28:58.799
the culture in order to you know, engage more people.

514
00:28:58.880 --> 00:29:00.400
I would say, we back all the way all that up.

515
00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:02.200
There's a lot of people that would say, I'm into hymns,

516
00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:04.160
are just like where it's at. Well, the hymns didn't

517
00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:06.440
come out of the New Testament, then comes out of

518
00:29:06.440 --> 00:29:09.759
a cultural moment. Actually, I don't know you can fact

519
00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:12.920
check me on this, but like I believe the tune

520
00:29:13.000 --> 00:29:16.599
Amazing Grace was set to a bar tune. It came

521
00:29:16.599 --> 00:29:19.680
out of a saloon. Pianos were not allowed in churches

522
00:29:19.720 --> 00:29:22.920
because that was a saloon instrument, and so whoever wrote

523
00:29:22.960 --> 00:29:25.599
Amazing Grace said it to the tune of a popular

524
00:29:25.799 --> 00:29:28.200
saloon tune, and they brought it into the church.

525
00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:32.960
All right. So his first say, what's to push back

526
00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:34.799
on this worship tament? I don't know if we really

527
00:29:34.839 --> 00:29:37.640
want to call that. He kind of pushed back. He's

528
00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:41.359
trying to be careful. And then his first real argument,

529
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:43.680
if you really kind of break this down logically, is hey,

530
00:29:43.720 --> 00:29:46.240
wait a minute, wait a minute. It's around the thirteen

531
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:50.920
minute mark. He basically the pastor begins to offer up,

532
00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:56.319
what is a widely circulated but a completely historically and

533
00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:01.519
accurate story about Amazing Grace? What's funny? His first real

534
00:30:01.680 --> 00:30:04.640
argument against, Well, let's not really go after worship tame

535
00:30:04.680 --> 00:30:08.119
and let's be careful because even the hymns and so

536
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:11.440
his first argument, his first pushback, what does he use

537
00:30:11.880 --> 00:30:16.240
a completely historically inaccurate story. Now you want to know

538
00:30:16.279 --> 00:30:19.519
why people run to podcast, I don't know. Maybe because

539
00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:21.960
pastors can't get their history right. I don't know. But

540
00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:24.160
of course this is on a podcast. So then but

541
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:25.720
of course then his sermons are a podcast.

542
00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:26.559
All right, whatever the.

543
00:30:26.519 --> 00:30:28.000
Case may be. I mean, all right, we can get

544
00:30:28.000 --> 00:30:30.519
into that never ending argument. So let's let's try to

545
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:33.160
go here. Here's basically the section in question. I'm just

546
00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:35.200
going to quote what he said. Well, the hymns didn't

547
00:30:35.200 --> 00:30:38.839
come out of the New Testament. The tune Amazing Grace

548
00:30:39.279 --> 00:30:41.400
was set to a bar tune. It came out of

549
00:30:41.400 --> 00:30:44.480
a saloon. Pianos were not allowed in the churches because

550
00:30:44.559 --> 00:30:47.440
that was a saloon instrument. And so whoever wrote Amazing

551
00:30:47.440 --> 00:30:50.400
Grace set it to the tune of a popular saloon tune,

552
00:30:50.480 --> 00:30:53.960
and they brought it into the church very controversial at

553
00:30:53.960 --> 00:30:58.440
the time. Now, this story is false in a number

554
00:30:58.440 --> 00:31:00.559
of ways, and we talked about this in the last episode,

555
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:02.519
but I want to put this all together because this

556
00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:06.319
is just hilarious because he's tried to set himself up

557
00:31:06.400 --> 00:31:10.240
that he's not like mega church basters, he's all different,

558
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:13.880
and then when someone criticizes what happens in megachurches, he

559
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:16.240
kind of now pushes back, well, you know, I don't

560
00:31:16.240 --> 00:31:18.640
know if we want to go after worship tainment, right,

561
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:21.119
and well, I mean, we got to consider the hymns.

562
00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:23.200
And then he tells a fraudulent story. Why is this

563
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:26.079
story falls? While Amazing Grace was written as a poem,

564
00:31:26.160 --> 00:31:28.880
not to a bar tune, Amazing Grace was written in

565
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:32.119
seventeen seventy two by John Newton, a former slave trader

566
00:31:32.160 --> 00:31:35.319
turned Anglican clergyman. It was written as a poem meant

567
00:31:35.319 --> 00:31:38.559
to accompany a sermon for New Year's Day in seventeen

568
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:41.640
seventy three. Newton did not write it to the tune

569
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:46.759
we know today. The tune we know, sometimes referred to

570
00:31:46.759 --> 00:31:50.720
as New Britain, came later, but not from a saloon.

571
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:55.359
The melody most commonly associated with Amazing Grace today is

572
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:59.680
called New Britain, a traditional folk tune that first appeared

573
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:04.000
in a eighteen thirty five and William Walker's Southern Harmony Hymnal.

574
00:32:04.319 --> 00:32:06.799
There is no historical evidence that the tune came from

575
00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:08.880
a bar or a saloon, nor that it was a

576
00:32:08.960 --> 00:32:12.200
drinking song. The bar tune myth is likely confusion with

577
00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:15.799
Martin Luther's use of popular folk melodies and Reformation hymns,

578
00:32:15.960 --> 00:32:20.680
which is often oversimplified. Pianos and churches. It's true that

579
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:24.240
pianos were once controversial in some church traditions, particularly in

580
00:32:24.279 --> 00:32:27.720
the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. However, there's no connection between

581
00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:31.319
pianos and saloons and the context of Amazing Grace's composition

582
00:32:31.559 --> 00:32:34.640
or its early use. Newton's hymn was sung a cappella

583
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:37.960
with a simple company, not with a piano or in

584
00:32:38.079 --> 00:32:41.960
saloon style context. Now, why does this even matter. The

585
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:46.279
pastor is using a fabricated story to make a philological

586
00:32:46.519 --> 00:32:49.160
and an aesthetic point. He wants to make a point

587
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.640
about the esthetic used in worship, what we use in worship,

588
00:32:52.680 --> 00:32:55.839
because he's got to defend the very thing that this

589
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:58.960
person in the interviewer just condemned. But he can't just

590
00:32:59.000 --> 00:33:03.319
come out and say what we like worship tainment. You

591
00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:06.319
know what, we like big stages, we like dark rooms,

592
00:33:06.440 --> 00:33:08.960
we like smoke machines. We like to provide a little

593
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:12.039
bit of entertainment because that's what the people want. Obviously

594
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:15.160
we're doing something right. We've got twelve thousand people. The

595
00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:17.880
people who don't use this, or in the middle of nowhere,

596
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:20.839
Texas with four people with a four cell sign on

597
00:33:20.880 --> 00:33:24.960
their church building because they won't use what works. Just

598
00:33:25.039 --> 00:33:27.079
come out and say it. I would have more respect.

599
00:33:27.240 --> 00:33:30.279
But he's trying to walk this a little Oh no, no, no, no, no.

600
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:33.079
It's about the Bible, it's about preaching. It's not about

601
00:33:33.119 --> 00:33:38.480
this this megachurch culture, even though that's exactly what we're doing.

602
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.759
But so hang on and so basically his point is,

603
00:33:43.880 --> 00:33:47.759
see even amazing Grace use cultural music, so we can too.

604
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:50.599
But the story is wrong and using false history to

605
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:55.640
justify current methods is dangerous, especially when you're shaping church culture,

606
00:33:55.880 --> 00:33:59.440
you're influencing thousands of people, and you're claiming biblical.

607
00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:00.000
Or historical authority.

608
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:04.480
The pastor is not just telling the story casually, he's

609
00:34:04.519 --> 00:34:10.280
developing it strategically to defend the very esthetic. The interviewer

610
00:34:10.599 --> 00:34:17.880
is critiquing stage lighting, smoke, theatrical production, entertainment driven worship,

611
00:34:18.719 --> 00:34:23.320
what the interviewer and others call worship tainment. The strategy

612
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:26.679
he's using behind the story basically is like this, This

613
00:34:26.800 --> 00:34:29.480
is kind of what the pastor is doing. Rhetorically, The

614
00:34:29.519 --> 00:34:36.519
interviewer critiques worship tainment, light, smoke, hype, overprogramming as distracting, shallow,

615
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:37.599
and inconsistent with.

616
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:38.920
Reverent, historic worship.

617
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:43.400
The pastor responds by saying, well, even the hymns like

618
00:34:43.440 --> 00:34:47.360
Amazing Grace came from saloon tunes, and we're controversial in

619
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:51.480
their time. His implied point is, what you're criticizing now

620
00:34:51.559 --> 00:34:55.320
is no different than what previous generations criticize. Today's lights

621
00:34:55.320 --> 00:34:59.320
and fog are just this generation's version of amazing Grace.

622
00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:05.239
Conclusion is, therefore, don't judge the aesthetic. Just because it's

623
00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:10.000
new or emotional doesn't mean it's wrong. Well, why does

624
00:35:10.039 --> 00:35:13.360
the argument fall apart? Well, the entire history is false.

625
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:16.559
Amazing Grace does not come from a bartoon. Pianos were

626
00:35:16.559 --> 00:35:20.079
not saloon instruments in this context. Newton didn't write it

627
00:35:20.119 --> 00:35:23.519
to popular music. He wrote it as a theological reflection

628
00:35:23.639 --> 00:35:27.480
on grace. It's a false analogy, even if the history

629
00:35:27.559 --> 00:35:30.000
was true. A folk melody in a hymn book is

630
00:35:30.039 --> 00:35:33.360
not an anagural a now, if I can say, it's

631
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:39.880
not a perfect analogy, okay, to program lighting, smoke machines,

632
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:44.920
led video, led video walls, immersive stage designs, and a

633
00:35:45.000 --> 00:35:49.679
concert style atmosphere that visually psychologically shifts the attention from

634
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:54.199
God to the stage. And when you open up their website, boom,

635
00:35:54.199 --> 00:35:58.320
what do you see? The stage, the lighting. You're not

636
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.800
drawn to scripture, You're not to God. And that's okay.

637
00:36:01.960 --> 00:36:04.360
I'm not even here criticizing it. If that's what you

638
00:36:04.440 --> 00:36:07.599
want to do, go for it. I got no problem.

639
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:10.239
Let me make this very clear. People are gonna say, well,

640
00:36:10.239 --> 00:36:12.800
you're criticizing, saying church should be done only this way.

641
00:36:12.840 --> 00:36:13.880
No no, no, no, no, no, no no.

642
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:18.039
I'm not saying that you do church any way you want.

643
00:36:18.360 --> 00:36:23.159
I don't care. I literally don't care. What I'm The

644
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:26.039
point I'm trying to make is you talk. It's all

645
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:26.880
about God.

646
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:28.519
It's all about scripture.

647
00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:31.480
Our primary focus is to preach the word of God.

648
00:36:31.559 --> 00:36:33.760
We're not gonna give people chicken nuggets. We're not here

649
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:36.360
to entertain people. We're not here to give people watered

650
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:39.480
down ted talks. If you're gonna talk the game, well

651
00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:42.519
then don't turn around and and give people something opposite

652
00:36:42.519 --> 00:36:45.880
of what you're saying. Just be up front, you know what,

653
00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:48.760
all of that old stuff, we don't care about it.

654
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:51.039
But the point is he can't just throw it all

655
00:36:51.079 --> 00:36:54.719
out because then you'll, you'll the Christians there will go,

656
00:36:54.960 --> 00:36:57.719
oh no, no, I want a church about this other stuff.

657
00:36:57.760 --> 00:36:59.760
See what you have to do is tell everyone that

658
00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:02.679
they're really getting a church focused on scripture, focused on

659
00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:04.559
all the right things. You got to say the right things,

660
00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:06.760
and then you can give them the complete opposite. And

661
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:09.519
Christians are more than happy to sit there and say,

662
00:37:09.519 --> 00:37:15.000
oh see, it's good. So it's a false analogy. But

663
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:18.079
my point is, I don't care. Give them the stage,

664
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:21.679
give them the lighting, give them the concert, give them entertainment,

665
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:25.599
give them water down pulpits, give them, give them application

666
00:37:25.960 --> 00:37:31.280
over exegetical preaching. Do it. I got no problem. Just

667
00:37:31.400 --> 00:37:34.719
say what you're doing, just admit it, and I got

668
00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:38.400
no problem with it. Just don't pretend to be doing

669
00:37:38.440 --> 00:37:42.480
something you're not the best analogy I can have. I

670
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:44.639
say it all the time, you can have one side

671
00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:48.480
of the street a house. The house, the people who

672
00:37:48.519 --> 00:37:51.719
live there are atheist, they're agnostics. They don't care about

673
00:37:51.800 --> 00:37:52.880
religion of any kind.

674
00:37:53.000 --> 00:37:54.800
And they have a bunch of people over.

675
00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:58.599
They're sitting in the backyard and they're having they're grilling,

676
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:02.519
they're having fun, they're having a great time. Across the

677
00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:04.559
street is a bunch of Christians who get together and

678
00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.159
they're doing the same thing. They're sitting around a grill.

679
00:38:07.239 --> 00:38:09.599
They may be have ice cream, they've got a pot

680
00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:12.679
luck that the atheist will say it's a party, it's

681
00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:15.440
a get together, we're just hanging out. The Christians will.

682
00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:21.800
Say, it's a fellowship. It's blessed this time of fellowship.

683
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:26.400
We're doing something spiritual. We're doing something godly.

684
00:38:26.880 --> 00:38:30.480
We're doing something that's beneficial for my Christian life because

685
00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:34.280
there are no lone ranger Christians. I need my brothers

686
00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:39.239
and sisters. Oh, this is so important to my Christian life.

687
00:38:39.719 --> 00:38:42.239
Give me a break. You're hanging out, putting food in

688
00:38:42.280 --> 00:38:44.360
your face, just talking about the weather.

689
00:38:46.119 --> 00:38:48.320
But we gotta spiritualize it.

690
00:38:48.760 --> 00:38:51.639
We're doing a time of we're not gonna have the

691
00:38:51.719 --> 00:38:54.280
sermon this evening because we're gonna get together for a

692
00:38:54.280 --> 00:39:01.119
time of fellowship. Don't you feel so spiritual? If you

693
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:06.079
go across the street, that's not fellowship, that's pagans. But

694
00:39:06.159 --> 00:39:12.039
we're doing something spiritual. Just say we want to get together,

695
00:39:12.199 --> 00:39:14.559
hang out with each other and have some food. Okay,

696
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:15.960
it's okay to just say that.

697
00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:18.400
Don't make it out like it's.

698
00:39:18.440 --> 00:39:23.239
Oh, we're doing something so godly. It's an ice cream

699
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:28.880
social but oh no, no, no, it's a fellowship so pious,

700
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:32.800
self righteous. Give me a break. You just don't you

701
00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:35.679
just want to get together and have fun. That's okay,

702
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:43.880
Then just call it what it is. Drives me crazy.

703
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:48.280
The interviewer wasn't just concerned with style, he was concerned

704
00:39:48.280 --> 00:39:52.000
with substance. Church is creating emotionally driven experiences rather than

705
00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.679
spiritually formative environments, worship that looks like culture rather than

706
00:39:55.719 --> 00:39:59.400
shapes culture, a vibe of entertainment instead of a posture

707
00:39:59.440 --> 00:40:02.960
of awe, and the pastor's response doesn't address that. He

708
00:40:03.079 --> 00:40:06.119
simply deflects with a half true I don't even know

709
00:40:06.159 --> 00:40:09.559
half true story. I'm gonna say fraudulent story and reframes

710
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:13.199
the conversation old people just don't like new stuff. That's

711
00:40:13.239 --> 00:40:16.760
kind of already saying, well, people just don't Back then

712
00:40:16.800 --> 00:40:19.320
it was controversial and we're just doing the same thing.

713
00:40:22.039 --> 00:40:25.480
None of that gets to the actual substance of the critique.

714
00:40:26.280 --> 00:40:29.960
The interviewer was asking some real questions about the modern

715
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:33.400
church culture, and what appears, according to some statistics, is

716
00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:36.119
that young men are sick of the worship tainment and

717
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:38.800
they're looking for something of more substance. Now, I don't

718
00:40:38.840 --> 00:40:41.199
know if we have enough statistical evidence to back that up,

719
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:44.920
but that's the root of the issue. And he would

720
00:40:44.960 --> 00:40:47.719
ask this pastor this question because the whole interview is

721
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:49.880
framed that this pastor is different than.

722
00:40:49.800 --> 00:40:51.000
All of these other churches.

723
00:40:51.400 --> 00:40:55.719
He's different, but everything about this church is literally what's

724
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:59.039
being criticized. It is the weirdest thing I've ever seen.

725
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:02.559
But he's not done because he's going to come into

726
00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:06.960
argument number two. Number one, amazing grace comes from a

727
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:10.199
bar tune, completely fraudulent. So he uses a fraudulent story

728
00:41:10.239 --> 00:41:15.000
to make his first point. What's his second point?

729
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:18.079
Very controversial at the time. Now a lot of people

730
00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:19.679
will go, oh, man, just give me some amazing grace.

731
00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:22.280
But via piano in the realizing that came out of

732
00:41:22.320 --> 00:41:24.320
a cultural moment that wasn't in the Book of Acts.

733
00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:26.159
So I think we just got to contextualize a lot

734
00:41:26.199 --> 00:41:28.679
of that. The other thing I would say, is it, man,

735
00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:30.800
if you read Revelation for that sounds a lot like

736
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:32.760
a kind of a modern day worship service the Throne

737
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:35.800
Room of Heaven, and there was like all of these colors,

738
00:41:36.119 --> 00:41:38.760
There was this smoke or haze, there was the you know,

739
00:41:38.880 --> 00:41:41.679
laying down their crowns, singing Holy, Holy, Holy. It doesn't

740
00:41:41.719 --> 00:41:44.840
necessarily seem so much like a like a liturgical kind

741
00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:45.199
of moment.

742
00:41:45.239 --> 00:41:46.440
Now, I don't want to overread that.

743
00:41:46.519 --> 00:41:49.760
I will say this, if we're talking about like John's

744
00:41:49.760 --> 00:41:52.880
glimpse and into the Throne room, could it quite possibly

745
00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:55.280
be because everybody in culture, regardless if they've acknowledged God

746
00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:56.800
or not, has been made in the image of God.

747
00:41:57.159 --> 00:42:01.480
So that actually what's happening at Rock Conserts is they're

748
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:04.440
trying to unknowingly mimicing what's going on in Revelation for

749
00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:09.079
and so I would say that it's not always because

750
00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:10.679
we're trying to mimic the culture.

751
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:13.480
We're trying to get vertical the glorification of.

752
00:42:13.400 --> 00:42:16.920
God in this moment. I'm not against hymnals. I'm not

753
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:20.480
against liturgy. The catechisms I think are great. Obviously, that's

754
00:42:20.800 --> 00:42:23.280
that's a tool of discipleship to try to help people.

755
00:42:25.239 --> 00:42:29.960
So his second argument is Revelation four. So first a

756
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:34.760
fraudulent telling of a historical account, and now second Revelation four.

757
00:42:34.880 --> 00:42:39.800
Revelation four that's worship, damn it. Revelation four is smoke machines.

758
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:44.840
Revelation four is bright lights. Revelation four is my justification

759
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:47.400
for In fact, he basically says, and I'm going to quote,

760
00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:49.679
if you read Revelation four, that sounds a lot like

761
00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:54.079
modern day worship services. All those colors, there was smoke, haze,

762
00:42:54.119 --> 00:42:57.079
people laying down their crowns, singing Holy, Holy Holy. It

763
00:42:57.159 --> 00:43:00.159
doesn't necessarily sound like a liturgical kind of moment. It

764
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:03.880
maybe what's happening at rock concerts is that people are

765
00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:09.440
knowingly mimicking Revelation chapter four. Now when I heard this,

766
00:43:09.760 --> 00:43:12.800
I couldn't really believe that this was happening. I had

767
00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:15.519
to I had to almost like, I had to almost

768
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:18.719
laugh that this was happening. So let's try to critique this,

769
00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:23.960
all right, This, I believe, is an allegorical justification for

770
00:43:24.239 --> 00:43:29.039
modern esthetics. It's not an exegetical justification. This is an

771
00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:32.599
allegorical Now again, he's all about expository preaching.

772
00:43:32.800 --> 00:43:33.199
Preaching.

773
00:43:33.280 --> 00:43:35.760
Well, if you're gonna use Revelation four, then show me

774
00:43:35.840 --> 00:43:38.840
how Revelation four has anything to do with your smoke

775
00:43:38.920 --> 00:43:41.559
machines and your big stage and lighting in your church.

776
00:43:41.960 --> 00:43:44.480
This is the I can't even believe you have to

777
00:43:44.519 --> 00:43:50.159
even critique this Revelation four first as apocalyptic literature. Okay,

778
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:53.480
I mean someone who's an expositor of scripture should know that, right.

779
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:57.360
It's not a how to manual for church stage design.

780
00:43:57.960 --> 00:44:04.039
The vivid imagery, thrones, creatures, lighting, thunder, smoke are meant

781
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:11.079
to reveal the majesty, holiness, and the infinite otherness of God.

782
00:44:11.639 --> 00:44:17.039
They are heavenly. They are heavenly symbols, not earthly templates.

783
00:44:17.519 --> 00:44:21.239
To say that Revelation four justifies smoke machines and led

784
00:44:21.480 --> 00:44:24.440
lighting is like seeing Ezekiel's vision of the wills within

785
00:44:24.480 --> 00:44:30.239
the Wills authorizes the use of drones in worship. It's ridiculous. Hey, hey, wills,

786
00:44:30.519 --> 00:44:32.719
I think that's I think that's a drone. Well, okay,

787
00:44:32.800 --> 00:44:35.960
Ezekiel had wills upon and wills we're gonna have drones

788
00:44:36.000 --> 00:44:38.760
in our worship service. Maybe they already do. I don't know.

789
00:44:40.599 --> 00:44:45.800
This isn't biblical warrant. It's creative reverse engineering to valid it,

790
00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:49.760
to to really try to validate a predetermined esthetic. They

791
00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:52.079
already have the aesthetic, So now they're going to go

792
00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:55.159
to the Bible and reverse engineering to now validate what

793
00:44:55.199 --> 00:45:02.440
they're already doing. Revelation four just ask you, is it

794
00:45:02.519 --> 00:45:09.719
describing a wholly terrifying, unapproachable throne or is it teaching

795
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:16.719
or describing a comfortable atmosphere? And revelation is the response

796
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:20.760
fear all falling down and unceasing worship. I don't know

797
00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:24.280
how about whenever the living creatures give glory, the twenty

798
00:45:24.280 --> 00:45:27.599
four elders fall down before him and they cast their

799
00:45:27.639 --> 00:45:31.599
crowns Revelation four, nine through ten. Contrast that with modern

800
00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:38.079
worship entertainment. Lights program for emotion, fog used for ambience,

801
00:45:38.519 --> 00:45:42.760
loud music designed to stir excitement the goal, and Revelation

802
00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:46.960
four is reverence the goal, and worship tainment is really engagement.

803
00:45:47.159 --> 00:45:48.719
I don't even know how you can try to say

804
00:45:48.760 --> 00:45:52.039
it's the same thing. Now you can go look at

805
00:45:52.039 --> 00:45:55.320
Revelation four and draw your own conclusions, but I don't.

806
00:45:55.559 --> 00:45:56.880
I mean, right now, I want to pull out the

807
00:45:56.920 --> 00:45:59.440
Bible and just like, let's go all in on Revelation four.

808
00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:01.639
We don't have a time to do that now. Maybe

809
00:46:01.679 --> 00:46:03.559
at some point we will do that, but you can

810
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:06.239
go do that yourself. Just this is the pastor's like,

811
00:46:06.480 --> 00:46:11.639
it's all about exposition of scripture, the glory, and then

812
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:17.440
this is the justification. And then he talks about mimicking

813
00:46:17.480 --> 00:46:21.159
heaven is not the same thing as mimicking a concert.

814
00:46:21.199 --> 00:46:24.840
The pastor suggest that perhaps concerts are unintentionally mimicking heaven,

815
00:46:25.119 --> 00:46:28.400
but biblically, the desire to ascend into Heaven like awe

816
00:46:28.400 --> 00:46:32.440
without holiness is exactly what paganism has always done. Golden

817
00:46:32.480 --> 00:46:37.440
calves and SnSe, dramatic rituals, hypnotic chanting, sensory spectacle without truth.

818
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:40.840
Even if the culture resemblance exist, it's the wrong direction.

819
00:46:41.079 --> 00:46:43.599
The church is not called to look like Heaven by

820
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:46.920
mimicking concert stages. The church is called to declare the

821
00:46:46.960 --> 00:46:50.320
Word and participate in God's presence by the spirit through

822
00:46:50.400 --> 00:46:53.280
the sun. So even if you say, well, concerts are

823
00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:57.039
trying to mimic heaven, so then you're saying that that

824
00:46:57.400 --> 00:47:00.719
we're trying to mimic heaven, and what by us looking

825
00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:02.800
like a rock concert, Like, I don't even understand how

826
00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:05.760
that work. If the rock concert's trying to mimic heaven,

827
00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:08.800
then I guess then you're saying, well, then we're trying

828
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:13.800
to mimic heaven as well. I don't, but I think

829
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:16.199
paganism has always tried to do that to.

830
00:47:16.119 --> 00:47:19.800
Some level, right, So I don't even know what that

831
00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:20.440
would prove.

832
00:47:21.159 --> 00:47:22.920
Well, hey, look at those people over there in that concert.

833
00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:24.639
They're trying to mimic heaven, all right, so we're going

834
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:27.079
to do the same thing. I don't know.

835
00:47:29.480 --> 00:47:30.400
I don't know.

836
00:47:32.280 --> 00:47:35.960
The pastor says, I'm totally out on watered down TED talks.

837
00:47:36.079 --> 00:47:38.519
I love expository preaching. I just want to read the text,

838
00:47:38.559 --> 00:47:40.320
explain the text, and apply the text. He said that

839
00:47:40.400 --> 00:47:43.400
earlier in the interview, but then he uses revelation for

840
00:47:43.599 --> 00:47:48.440
out of context to justify theatrical elements he validates doing

841
00:47:48.480 --> 00:47:51.880
it well with Hayes, lights and immersive tech. He gives

842
00:47:51.920 --> 00:47:56.440
a culturally relativistic argument hymns came from bars too. So

843
00:47:56.519 --> 00:48:02.920
while he's saying he's against entertainment, he's defended the entertainment architecture,

844
00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:07.199
which is the very basically creating the very structure that

845
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:16.599
shapes the modern sermon experience and a motivational performance. So

846
00:48:17.000 --> 00:48:23.800
there's a complete philological disconnect. It's completely that's just a

847
00:48:23.880 --> 00:48:27.400
complete disconnect. That's all I can say. There's a complete disconnect,

848
00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:29.840
a complete disconnect.

849
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:33.519
And which is my whole point.

850
00:48:33.679 --> 00:48:37.239
My whole point is he says one thing, but then

851
00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:40.760
once push comes to shove, he then defends the very

852
00:48:40.840 --> 00:48:43.280
thing that's opposite to everything that he said.

853
00:48:43.280 --> 00:48:44.679
The church is supposed to be about.

854
00:48:45.960 --> 00:48:50.480
And that's okay. You want a concert atmosphere, you want

855
00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:52.639
it to be like worship tainment, you want it to

856
00:48:52.639 --> 00:48:55.599
be culturally relevant, you want all of that. That's fine.

857
00:48:56.039 --> 00:48:58.119
Just don't come and try to talk a big game like,

858
00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:00.559
oh no, it's about the preaching, it's about out the teaching.

859
00:49:00.639 --> 00:49:02.280
And then I open your website and the first thing

860
00:49:02.280 --> 00:49:08.199
I see is the performance. The picture is is of

861
00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:09.880
the of a performance. And look what And if you

862
00:49:09.920 --> 00:49:11.719
go to the church website, I mean you'll just see

863
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:14.159
they're not even a cross anywhere to be seen. There's

864
00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:17.239
no cross, there's nothing, there's just a I could be

865
00:49:17.320 --> 00:49:21.559
any concert that could be anybody, you just name the band.

866
00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:26.719
I looked at it. I don't go, oh, that's sure.

867
00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:28.599
I guess the only thing I could see that possibly

868
00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:31.719
is church is because the one singer she's holding up

869
00:49:31.760 --> 00:49:34.159
her hand. So there we go that you know it's

870
00:49:34.280 --> 00:49:36.360
church because she's got her hand lifted up. That's that's

871
00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:38.360
how you know. It doesn't matter what you're singing. There

872
00:49:38.400 --> 00:49:40.440
you go, oh, and there's some people in the audience

873
00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:41.760
got their hands lifted up. But if you go to

874
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:44.599
some concerts, people have their hand hands lifted up too,

875
00:49:44.639 --> 00:49:45.559
So I.

876
00:49:45.519 --> 00:49:47.760
Don't but there's nothing there says, oh.

877
00:49:47.639 --> 00:49:54.559
This is a church. Now, so there's the interview. Now

878
00:49:54.639 --> 00:49:56.960
let's look at the church website itself. I'm just gonna

879
00:49:56.960 --> 00:49:59.199
go through a little bit of information here about the church,

880
00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:02.519
because I think we're going to begin to see is

881
00:50:02.519 --> 00:50:05.880
there a bigger disconnect than what we've already uncovered here.

882
00:50:05.880 --> 00:50:09.960
And I've got plenty of notes here, plenty of notes here,

883
00:50:10.000 --> 00:50:12.039
and I'm just gonna skip so much of what I

884
00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:14.679
got here because there's I mean, we could go on

885
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:16.400
for a couple of hours here, all right.

886
00:50:16.400 --> 00:50:17.920
So here's a little bit about the church.

887
00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:22.320
Trader's Point Christian Church is a multi site non denominational

888
00:50:22.400 --> 00:50:26.519
church based in the Indianapolis, Indiana metropolitan area and a

889
00:50:26.519 --> 00:50:32.920
please note non denominational. Non denominational meaning they're not going

890
00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:36.960
to be committed to any particular philological identifier.

891
00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:38.360
We're non denominational.

892
00:50:38.440 --> 00:50:41.280
Okay, you may like that, you may not like that.

893
00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:44.119
Just remember a church that seems to be doesn't want

894
00:50:44.119 --> 00:50:46.239
to be, you know, like one of these watered down

895
00:50:46.280 --> 00:50:50.440
megachurches wants all to be about preaching and teaching, doesn't

896
00:50:50.440 --> 00:50:53.159
want to just give people chicken nuggets. You gotta start

897
00:50:53.159 --> 00:50:55.840
with a non denominational idea. That means you have no

898
00:50:56.000 --> 00:50:59.880
real philological identifier. Even to now, in some ways that's

899
00:50:59.880 --> 00:51:02.360
a thing, right, A lot of people don't like the

900
00:51:02.360 --> 00:51:06.199
theological identifiers. They like a Bible church or a non

901
00:51:06.239 --> 00:51:11.719
denominational because it feels like, okay, you know, well, we're

902
00:51:11.719 --> 00:51:12.920
not going to get cut up in all of those

903
00:51:12.920 --> 00:51:15.719
theological wars. And I can understand that to some level.

904
00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:21.320
All right, the church emphasizes biblical authority, so they're going

905
00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:25.400
with that. They're going to keep stressing that relational evangelism

906
00:51:25.719 --> 00:51:31.880
and intentional discipleship doctrine and beliefs. They uphold core values.

907
00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:36.159
Relational evangelism, striving to remove unnecessary barriers that keep people

908
00:51:36.199 --> 00:51:39.880
from Jesus biblical authority, holding the Bibles the ultimate authority,

909
00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:44.360
and encouraging its application in daily life. Intentional discipleship focusing

910
00:51:44.360 --> 00:51:49.119
on deepening faith through study, prayer, and relationships. Outstanding environments,

911
00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:53.800
creating spaces that prioritize kingdom purpose over personal preference. Hey,

912
00:51:53.920 --> 00:52:01.360
we don't want personal preference, we want kingdom purpose. Again,

913
00:52:01.360 --> 00:52:05.679
although that sounds good, it sounds so spiritual, what is

914
00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:08.199
it really saying? See, that's the thing I'm trying to

915
00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:11.760
get at. When is it marketing versus what you're actually getting?

916
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:14.519
Why are you being sold this? But you get this?

917
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:19.760
Now, here's a little bit more information about the church.

918
00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:24.360
From the latest figures that I can find. This goes

919
00:52:24.400 --> 00:52:30.639
back about two years the church Trader's Point Christian Church

920
00:52:33.360 --> 00:52:39.440
brought in thirty million, two hundred and fifty two thousand,

921
00:52:39.960 --> 00:52:44.880
two hundred and fifteen dollars with an expense amount with

922
00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:49.079
the expenses amounting to twenty five million, three hundred and

923
00:52:49.159 --> 00:52:52.880
eight thousand, three hundred and ninety four dollars, So they

924
00:52:52.880 --> 00:52:54.239
brought in thirty million.

925
00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:55.159
It takes.

926
00:52:55.639 --> 00:52:58.599
It took up them twenty five million to operate, so

927
00:52:58.599 --> 00:53:06.480
they have a surplus of over four million dollars. Thirty

928
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:13.320
million dollars. I cannot wrap my mind around that. I

929
00:53:13.360 --> 00:53:17.599
cannot wrap my mind around that for one second. I cannot.

930
00:53:18.280 --> 00:53:22.840
And it takes twenty five million dollars to operate. Now

931
00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:25.000
I know why they got such a nice stage. Now,

932
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:26.960
I know why they got a fog machine. I now

933
00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:29.039
know when they got all the lighting. I know why

934
00:53:29.079 --> 00:53:39.800
they got those big screens. Now, typically the church delivers

935
00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:43.199
one primary sermon each week during their weekend services. Now

936
00:53:43.239 --> 00:53:47.880
they do multiple services, but it sounds like one primary sermon, right.

937
00:53:47.960 --> 00:53:49.920
There may be multiple services, but it's like you go

938
00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:52.159
to this service and then have those people leaven in

939
00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:54.480
other people. Because you have so many people coming in,

940
00:53:54.639 --> 00:53:56.639
you've got to have multiple services. I mean, what a

941
00:53:56.679 --> 00:53:59.079
problem to have, right. That's how you're bringing in between

942
00:53:59.079 --> 00:54:02.039
ten ten to twelve thousand, between nine thousand to twelve

943
00:54:02.039 --> 00:54:04.320
thousand people a week, So you have multiple you keep

944
00:54:04.360 --> 00:54:06.800
bringing other people in, bring the people in, and you

945
00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:10.559
basically give them the same sermon. All right, So if

946
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:13.440
they basically deliver one primary sermon each week during their

947
00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:16.519
weekend service this week results in approximately about fifty two

948
00:54:16.679 --> 00:54:21.199
sermons annually. All right, So if we go, let's just water.

949
00:54:21.679 --> 00:54:25.920
Let's let's lower this from twenty five million. Let's lower

950
00:54:25.960 --> 00:54:28.559
it down that. Let's just say the total giving is

951
00:54:29.280 --> 00:54:33.400
nineteen million, seven hundred and twenty five thousand, two hundred

952
00:54:33.400 --> 00:54:36.719
and eighteen, and I'll pull that number from twenty nineteen.

953
00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:39.079
So I'm going to reduce the amount of money coming

954
00:54:39.079 --> 00:54:43.440
in from twenty five million to nineteen million. Now, if this,

955
00:54:43.880 --> 00:54:47.800
let's say this figure represents about the annual operating expenses,

956
00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:51.360
because twenty five million is what the expenses amount to

957
00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:54.400
in twenty twenty two, Let's just say they basically are

958
00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:57.280
about right at twenty million to operate. So I'm lowering

959
00:54:57.320 --> 00:54:59.800
the number coming in. I'm lowering the number it takes

960
00:54:59.800 --> 00:55:01.639
to operate, all right, because I want to be fair,

961
00:55:01.679 --> 00:55:03.639
and I'm trying to pull from older numbers to find

962
00:55:03.639 --> 00:55:06.679
lower numbers to try to be fair. All right. So

963
00:55:06.840 --> 00:55:09.000
then if we do that, we can estimate the cost

964
00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:12.000
per sermon by dividing the total expenses by the number

965
00:55:12.000 --> 00:55:15.079
of sermons. Right, So if you have about nineteen million,

966
00:55:15.400 --> 00:55:18.360
seven hundred and twenty five two hundred and eighteen dollars

967
00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:21.760
you get basically fifty two sermons, well, this means it's

968
00:55:21.760 --> 00:55:27.840
about three basically three hundred and seventy nine thousand, three

969
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:32.320
hundred and thirty two dollars per sermon. If you get

970
00:55:32.360 --> 00:55:37.320
basically fifty two sermons, then basically you're paying three hundred

971
00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:42.159
and seventy nine thousand dollars per sermon. I remember he

972
00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:45.320
said in the interview himself, the main purpose is to teach.

973
00:55:45.440 --> 00:55:47.480
The main purpose is to preach. Well, if that's the

974
00:55:47.519 --> 00:55:50.239
main purpose of the church, well, then you know you

975
00:55:50.239 --> 00:55:52.599
should be getting a lot more than fifty two sermons.

976
00:55:52.719 --> 00:55:54.880
Now maybe there are getting more than fifty two sermons,

977
00:55:54.920 --> 00:55:57.400
but if you review the website basically, and if you

978
00:55:57.440 --> 00:55:59.760
look at the the well they don't call it a podcast,

979
00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:02.639
but their sermons uploaded online, you looks like you get

980
00:56:02.639 --> 00:56:04.960
one per week. You know, I don't see two, I

981
00:56:04.960 --> 00:56:08.599
don't see three. I see one. So then if that's

982
00:56:08.679 --> 00:56:12.480
if that's basically the number, then you're basically paying almost

983
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:15.960
four hundred thousand dollars for one sermon. He said, Well,

984
00:56:16.079 --> 00:56:18.159
we're not. We're not giving just for that. Now, what

985
00:56:18.239 --> 00:56:20.840
else are you getting? If that's the main purpose of

986
00:56:20.880 --> 00:56:27.000
the church is to preach the word of God. So

987
00:56:27.159 --> 00:56:30.000
I asked Artificial Intelligence. I said, hey, am I being

988
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:35.199
unfair to question this? AI says, in fact, you're doing

989
00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:38.679
what many people don't do enough. When evaluating churches today,

990
00:56:38.960 --> 00:56:43.400
we should ask hard, honest questions about stewardship, priorities, and outcomes.

991
00:56:43.920 --> 00:56:45.920
So AI said, let me walk through this, and I'm

992
00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:49.280
going to try to be clear and fair. All right,

993
00:56:49.800 --> 00:56:52.320
So AI says, I'm going to take your the numbers

994
00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:54.840
that you found and I'm going to round them for simplicity.

995
00:56:55.400 --> 00:57:00.159
Approximately twenty million dollars a year comes in twenty millillion

996
00:57:00.239 --> 00:57:04.519
dollars a year in expenses, approximately fifty two sermons a year.

997
00:57:04.800 --> 00:57:09.639
That's about three hundred and seventy nine thousand per sermon.

998
00:57:10.039 --> 00:57:13.599
The weekly attendance, let's say, is nine thousand, So that's

999
00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:19.320
about forty one dollars per attendee per sermon. So everyone's

1000
00:57:19.360 --> 00:57:22.719
basically giving forty one dollars to hear a sermon, forty

1001
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:25.440
one dollars to hear a sermon, forty one dollars ladies

1002
00:57:25.440 --> 00:57:27.679
and gentlemen, to give us to hear a sermon. And

1003
00:57:27.800 --> 00:57:29.960
what what are you getting in that? Sermon for forty

1004
00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:36.480
one dollars, and it's from a podcasting perspective, we're I'm

1005
00:57:36.519 --> 00:57:39.360
already almost at two and a half hours of content

1006
00:57:39.440 --> 00:57:41.639
for this Saturday, two and a half hours of content

1007
00:57:41.639 --> 00:57:44.719
for this Saturday, more than that church will give you

1008
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:49.519
in two weeks. But yet they're bringing in millions and

1009
00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:55.119
millions and millions and millions and millions. Ai says this

1010
00:57:55.199 --> 00:58:00.000
seems absurd. Nearly four hundred thousand dollars for a sermon.

1011
00:58:00.400 --> 00:58:02.880
That's an enormous cost for what should be the ordinary,

1012
00:58:02.920 --> 00:58:06.280
faithful ministry of the word. Most of church history, house churches,

1013
00:58:06.320 --> 00:58:10.199
early church gatherings, Reformation pulpits did this for next to nothing.

1014
00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:13.800
What are the people actually getting for that cost. If

1015
00:58:13.800 --> 00:58:17.079
the sermon is Christ's centered text, driven rich with theology,

1016
00:58:17.119 --> 00:58:21.199
faithful to the passage, that investment still might raise eyebrow eyebrows,

1017
00:58:21.320 --> 00:58:24.559
but it could at least be justified as pouring resources

1018
00:58:24.599 --> 00:58:27.719
into formation. But if the sermon is a motivational talk

1019
00:58:27.800 --> 00:58:31.559
loosely attached to scripture, then yes, it's absolutely fair to

1020
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:35.000
ask we're spending this much to be told to try harder.

1021
00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:46.519
AI says, it's not unfair to be asking, you know,

1022
00:58:46.519 --> 00:58:49.639
should churches be spending how are they spending the money?

1023
00:58:49.679 --> 00:58:57.840
Should they spend it in a better way? So there's

1024
00:58:57.920 --> 00:59:04.119
the church. There's the money, right, the money to keep

1025
00:59:04.159 --> 00:59:09.679
this machine operating, right, And it's just so crazy because

1026
00:59:09.800 --> 00:59:12.400
all right, there's more I can say. But wait, there's more.

1027
00:59:12.440 --> 00:59:14.880
If you look around on the website. If you look

1028
00:59:14.920 --> 00:59:19.480
around on the website, and again, churches put all this

1029
00:59:19.480 --> 00:59:21.800
stuff out there online, and I put it out there online,

1030
00:59:21.840 --> 00:59:24.559
so anyone has a right to look at it and

1031
00:59:24.599 --> 00:59:27.000
to ask questions. Anyone has the right. Okay, I mean

1032
00:59:27.000 --> 00:59:30.280
it's perfectly okay. But if you do a little bit

1033
00:59:30.280 --> 00:59:34.519
of researching here, you're going to find this whole thing

1034
00:59:35.119 --> 00:59:36.599
about basically.

1035
00:59:37.280 --> 00:59:40.239
Joining a group, joining a group.

1036
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:43.679
What they're basically their version of small groups. All right,

1037
00:59:44.480 --> 00:59:46.599
I'm going to go down here in my notes. I

1038
00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:48.760
was going to go to the website and just start

1039
00:59:48.800 --> 00:59:50.800
reading everything there, but that will take forever. I'm going

1040
00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:53.280
to do a lot of summarizing here. So what I

1041
00:59:53.320 --> 00:59:56.599
did is I gave AI the link. I said here, AI,

1042
00:59:57.039 --> 01:00:01.039
can you break down everything here and summarize what they

1043
01:00:01.039 --> 01:00:03.239
have to say about small groups? Right?

1044
01:00:03.599 --> 01:00:05.039
So this is what AI says.

1045
01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:13.039
Okay, if the real spiritual formation is happening in homes,

1046
01:00:13.480 --> 01:00:17.440
coffee shops, and online groups. Because when you join a group,

1047
01:00:17.800 --> 01:00:20.880
these small groups that they have at this church, they

1048
01:00:20.880 --> 01:00:26.440
don't meet in the church. They meet in homes, they

1049
01:00:26.480 --> 01:00:30.760
meet in coffee shops, and they meet on online groups.

1050
01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:35.119
So you're paying twenty five million dollars to keep the

1051
01:00:35.199 --> 01:00:39.840
church operating per year, but the real discipleship supposedly doesn't

1052
01:00:39.880 --> 01:00:40.960
take place in the church.

1053
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:41.960
It takes place in the.

1054
01:00:41.880 --> 01:00:44.559
Groups that doesn't even meet inside the building that you're

1055
01:00:44.599 --> 01:00:47.719
paying twenty five million dollars for. How does anyone not

1056
01:00:47.800 --> 01:00:52.519
see that this is ridiculous? Ai says, If the real

1057
01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:56.519
spiritual formation is happening in homes, coffee shops, and online groups,

1058
01:00:56.599 --> 01:00:59.840
then why does the institution require twenty five to thirty

1059
01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:03.719
million dollars a year to operate multiple campuses and a

1060
01:01:03.760 --> 01:01:08.960
concert level production each weekend. The question isn't cynical. It's

1061
01:01:09.079 --> 01:01:12.960
essential if we're going to evaluate how effectively the church

1062
01:01:13.320 --> 01:01:16.800
is being a steward of its resources and fulfilling its missions.

1063
01:01:16.880 --> 01:01:21.719
All right, so Ai says, let's break this down. Number One,

1064
01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:27.920
they promote groups as the heart of discipleship. They explicitly

1065
01:01:28.119 --> 01:01:35.480
state discipleship happens best in small groups. That's literally what

1066
01:01:35.559 --> 01:01:40.400
they say on their website. These groups don't use the massive,

1067
01:01:40.519 --> 01:01:44.440
expensive building that you're paying twenty five million dollars to

1068
01:01:44.519 --> 01:01:49.320
keep operating. They meet in homes, they meet in coffee shops,

1069
01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:55.079
they meet online, places that cost the church absolutely no money.

1070
01:01:55.679 --> 01:01:58.880
The rooted program, which is a part of these small

1071
01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:04.079
groups is lay led. No pastors are teaching or leading

1072
01:02:04.119 --> 01:02:09.559
the groups. So you're paying twenty five million dollars to

1073
01:02:09.639 --> 01:02:13.599
maintain a building when the actual discipleship is happening outside

1074
01:02:13.639 --> 01:02:16.480
of the church and groups not even lead, but people

1075
01:02:16.559 --> 01:02:19.039
are being paid by the church. Well, if you're gonna

1076
01:02:19.039 --> 01:02:22.400
have the people lead the discipleship groups where real discipleship's

1077
01:02:22.440 --> 01:02:25.440
taking place, then stop paying the stink in pastors and

1078
01:02:25.519 --> 01:02:32.440
pay the people leading the small groups. I can't I

1079
01:02:32.440 --> 01:02:36.079
can't even function trying to understand the modern church anymore.

1080
01:02:38.840 --> 01:02:41.559
So and Ai asked this question, if that's where the

1081
01:02:41.599 --> 01:02:45.079
actual discipleship is happening, well, what are we spending all

1082
01:02:45.079 --> 01:02:49.760
the money on? So AI says, what is the twenty

1083
01:02:49.800 --> 01:02:53.599
five to thirty million dollars actually funding from the structure.

1084
01:02:54.239 --> 01:02:57.639
From the structure in public facing materials. The money appears

1085
01:02:57.679 --> 01:03:01.679
to go towards maintaining and staffing multiple large facilities, high

1086
01:03:01.679 --> 01:03:08.559
production worship services, lighting staging, sound, video, marketing and branding efforts.

1087
01:03:08.760 --> 01:03:12.800
A large page staff whose primary output, as we can find,

1088
01:03:13.079 --> 01:03:16.280
is about thirty to forty minute messages a week every

1089
01:03:16.360 --> 01:03:22.480
coordination event, coordination, tech, campus management, and likely administrative overhead.

1090
01:03:23.079 --> 01:03:26.599
Very little of that directly fuels actual philological training or

1091
01:03:26.599 --> 01:03:37.719
spiritual formation. So then AI says, if the buildings aren't

1092
01:03:37.840 --> 01:03:41.840
used for deep learning, if the groups are self led

1093
01:03:41.920 --> 01:03:46.320
and offside, if discernment is largely motivational or topical, what

1094
01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:51.599
are people actually paying for? And perhaps more pointedly, does

1095
01:03:51.679 --> 01:03:55.239
this model reflect New Testament Church or a business model

1096
01:03:55.400 --> 01:03:57.440
wrapped up in spiritual language.

1097
01:03:57.480 --> 01:03:58.599
That's the words of AI.

1098
01:03:59.320 --> 01:04:02.719
Because I gave AI everything and said you analysis, Am

1099
01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:06.280
I being fair? You critique this because I don't get it,

1100
01:04:06.320 --> 01:04:09.679
and even as like this makes no sense. And again

1101
01:04:09.719 --> 01:04:12.760
you can go to the website, you can go to

1102
01:04:12.840 --> 01:04:16.400
TPCC dot o RG and if you say take your

1103
01:04:16.480 --> 01:04:18.760
next step, then it says join a group.

1104
01:04:19.039 --> 01:04:20.280
Here, here's what it says.

1105
01:04:20.400 --> 01:04:22.840
And the picture when it when it shows the picture

1106
01:04:22.840 --> 01:04:27.000
in the group, they're sitting outside around a fire pit.

1107
01:04:27.920 --> 01:04:33.599
The men are wearing shorts, nobody's holding a Bible, and

1108
01:04:33.639 --> 01:04:38.960
they're talking. We learn in rows, but we grow in circles.

1109
01:04:39.599 --> 01:04:42.440
The mission of groups at Trader's Point is simple. We

1110
01:04:42.480 --> 01:04:46.000
want to create environments to help you connect with others

1111
01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:48.480
and grow to be more like Jesus. In a big church,

1112
01:04:48.719 --> 01:04:50.960
you don't need you don't know. You don't need to

1113
01:04:50.960 --> 01:04:54.960
know everyone. You just need to know someone. Groups provide

1114
01:04:55.000 --> 01:04:58.400
that opportunity. So groups provide the opportunity that I get

1115
01:04:58.440 --> 01:05:01.280
to know someone. I thought the groups were there to

1116
01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:08.719
help me learn about Jesus, all right, and it says here,

1117
01:05:09.119 --> 01:05:16.239
let me go here. If I join a group, here

1118
01:05:16.280 --> 01:05:21.239
we go. Small groups are typically consist of eight to

1119
01:05:21.280 --> 01:05:26.320
twelve people, meeting weekly in homes, at coffee shops, or well, okay,

1120
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:31.239
at least here, it does say at least here. If

1121
01:05:31.280 --> 01:05:34.119
you click further, if you go far enough into this

1122
01:05:34.239 --> 01:05:37.880
you start finding some things, or at Trader's Point campus,

1123
01:05:38.119 --> 01:05:40.920
so I guess sometimes they do meet on campus, which

1124
01:05:40.960 --> 01:05:43.440
would then okay, that makes a little bit more sense,

1125
01:05:43.519 --> 01:05:46.039
right if you're paying twenty five million dollars, But they

1126
01:05:46.079 --> 01:05:48.320
also meet on these other places, so I don't know

1127
01:05:48.360 --> 01:05:50.639
how many times they meet on actual.

1128
01:05:50.280 --> 01:05:50.920
Campus or not.

1129
01:05:52.400 --> 01:05:56.519
It says here, I'm looking here. The more you dig

1130
01:05:56.559 --> 01:06:03.199
into this because I want to be fair. See here,

1131
01:06:03.239 --> 01:06:05.400
I'm not getting a lot. I'm not getting a lot

1132
01:06:05.440 --> 01:06:16.440
here about that? Oh my goodness, to take the rooted

1133
01:06:17.239 --> 01:06:21.480
this is ridiculous. If you want to rooted is Rooted

1134
01:06:21.599 --> 01:06:24.599
is a ten week experience designed to connect you to God,

1135
01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:26.840
to the church and your purpose.

1136
01:06:28.440 --> 01:06:28.480
This.

1137
01:06:29.159 --> 01:06:32.079
Oh okay. So the groups meet in person at their

1138
01:06:32.239 --> 01:06:39.280
home campus, laying by a train facilitator who comes alongside you. Now,

1139
01:06:39.320 --> 01:06:41.280
I don't know if the train facilitator is on church

1140
01:06:41.280 --> 01:06:43.559
staff or not. But guess what it's gonna cost you

1141
01:06:43.719 --> 01:06:52.280
forty dollars to even do that. So you gotta give

1142
01:06:52.320 --> 01:06:54.400
pay forty dollars to even be a part of one

1143
01:06:54.400 --> 01:07:02.519
of the groups. Ah man, I should have known that

1144
01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:04.559
there was going to be money more money involved here,

1145
01:07:04.760 --> 01:07:08.119
all right? I see? Can I get more information here? Okay? Here?

1146
01:07:08.159 --> 01:07:10.960
If I join a group, uh well, they don't give

1147
01:07:10.960 --> 01:07:12.800
me see the small group. They don't give me any

1148
01:07:12.800 --> 01:07:18.119
more information. They just keep sending me to the Rooted,

1149
01:07:18.519 --> 01:07:21.519
the Rooted program, and the Rooted program. I have to

1150
01:07:21.519 --> 01:07:31.880
pay forty dollars. Okay, uh that's uh. I see. And

1151
01:07:31.880 --> 01:07:33.960
then here saying if you want to lead a group,

1152
01:07:34.360 --> 01:07:36.800
then you can you can complete a form. So see

1153
01:07:36.800 --> 01:07:39.239
that that means they're they're recruiting lay people. They're not.

1154
01:07:39.320 --> 01:07:44.800
They're not having the church staff do it. So man

1155
01:07:45.280 --> 01:07:48.079
and and there may be some slight like exceptions here

1156
01:07:48.079 --> 01:07:50.119
where they do have someone on paid staff. But if

1157
01:07:50.159 --> 01:07:53.159
you're bringing in twenty five million dollars, you bring in

1158
01:07:53.159 --> 01:07:55.719
in thirty million dollars. But if you're if you're bringing

1159
01:07:55.760 --> 01:07:58.920
in thirty million dollars, people shouldn't be paying forty dollars

1160
01:07:58.960 --> 01:08:01.079
to join a group so that they can be connected

1161
01:08:01.119 --> 01:08:04.719
to God. That's what Well, maybe that's why you're bringing

1162
01:08:04.760 --> 01:08:08.280
in thirty million dollars. Okay, Maybe if you're bringing in

1163
01:08:08.320 --> 01:08:11.360
thirty million dollars, all the groups should be led by

1164
01:08:11.400 --> 01:08:15.440
people who are on paid staff, because they should be

1165
01:08:15.480 --> 01:08:18.880
earning their paycheck by doing the tay, the training and

1166
01:08:18.920 --> 01:08:23.000
the discipling, or at the very least, there should be

1167
01:08:23.279 --> 01:08:28.239
paid leaders who receive adequate training philologically and biblically to

1168
01:08:28.359 --> 01:08:33.920
lead the groups. And I don't know how it looks

1169
01:08:33.920 --> 01:08:36.239
like a lot of this is done online and a

1170
01:08:36.279 --> 01:08:38.640
lot of this is done where it doesn't require any

1171
01:08:38.640 --> 01:08:40.800
money people's homes. Well, then what is the point of

1172
01:08:40.800 --> 01:08:46.600
paying thirty twenty five million dollars to keep a building open? Now,

1173
01:08:46.720 --> 01:08:49.239
remember the whole thing is, Hey, this pastor is not

1174
01:08:49.279 --> 01:08:52.079
like the megachurch. This is the typical megachurch. And you

1175
01:08:52.079 --> 01:08:53.680
don't even have to be megachurch for this.

1176
01:08:53.760 --> 01:08:54.279
It's the same.

1177
01:08:54.439 --> 01:09:00.119
But it's the megachurch ideology that is so infiltrated all

1178
01:09:00.279 --> 01:09:02.920
kinds of churches. We have a church, but we gotta

1179
01:09:02.920 --> 01:09:04.279
have small groups. We gotta have smoke groups.

1180
01:09:04.279 --> 01:09:05.880
We gotta have small groups. We gotta have smoke groups.

1181
01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:07.800
Everybody's gotta be in a smoke group. Join a smoke group,

1182
01:09:07.880 --> 01:09:09.880
and joice smoke groups, smoke group, smoke groups, smoke groups,

1183
01:09:09.880 --> 01:09:13.039
smoke group. It's like, you can't, you won't, You'll die

1184
01:09:13.079 --> 01:09:15.279
and go to hell unless you join a small group.

1185
01:09:15.399 --> 01:09:17.680
Churches can't function with all small groups. And then what

1186
01:09:17.720 --> 01:09:20.000
do you do. You meet somewhere other than the church,

1187
01:09:20.119 --> 01:09:22.880
led by someone not being paid, but hey, still give

1188
01:09:22.920 --> 01:09:29.079
your money to us. Hey, discipleship's gonna happen outside of

1189
01:09:29.159 --> 01:09:31.680
the building, led by someone who's not on paid staff.

1190
01:09:31.800 --> 01:09:35.279
But we need twenty five million dollars to operate. Well,

1191
01:09:35.319 --> 01:09:38.439
if discipleship's gonna take outside of this building led by

1192
01:09:38.439 --> 01:09:40.880
someone who's not unpaid staff, I don't need you for

1193
01:09:40.960 --> 01:09:43.600
anything because the most I'm getting is fifty two sermons

1194
01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:45.800
in an entire year. And then we can talk about

1195
01:09:45.800 --> 01:09:49.239
the quality of said sermons, which we'll do next time.

1196
01:09:49.439 --> 01:09:50.279
I had have the.

1197
01:09:50.239 --> 01:09:52.199
Sermon ready to go, but I wanted to go back

1198
01:09:52.239 --> 01:09:54.239
and break this down a little bit more. Now you

1199
01:09:54.279 --> 01:09:56.319
can go look at the website itself. So here's what

1200
01:09:56.760 --> 01:10:02.880
I'll summarize this. The interviewer challenged worship tayment and the

1201
01:10:02.920 --> 01:10:07.600
modern church mentality. This pastor, after already given the impression

1202
01:10:07.640 --> 01:10:09.840
that he's against it, has to kind of push back

1203
01:10:09.880 --> 01:10:13.319
and try to defend the very modern church mentality. He

1204
01:10:13.359 --> 01:10:17.119
does so by giving you a false history example about

1205
01:10:17.159 --> 01:10:20.079
amazing grace, and then he somehow tries to correlate Revelation

1206
01:10:20.119 --> 01:10:26.399
four to stage lighting modern day rock concerts. It's insane

1207
01:10:26.439 --> 01:10:31.520
what he does there, which demonstrates not expository mindset and

1208
01:10:31.560 --> 01:10:33.159
how to handle Revelation chapter four.

1209
01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:34.039
That's crazy.

1210
01:10:34.119 --> 01:10:38.399
You go to the actual website, which is TPCC dot org.

1211
01:10:39.039 --> 01:10:41.680
What we end up with is boom as soon as

1212
01:10:41.720 --> 01:10:49.520
it opens. Dark room, bright stage lights, a concert, a stage,

1213
01:10:49.760 --> 01:10:55.479
big screens. Okay, which is exactly what the interview the

1214
01:10:55.560 --> 01:10:59.279
interviewer was condemning. But somehow Revelation four justifies this and

1215
01:11:00.119 --> 01:11:05.000
a fraudulent story about amazing grace. And then when you

1216
01:11:05.039 --> 01:11:09.800
do a little bit digging around, hey, join a group now,

1217
01:11:10.039 --> 01:11:12.920
because why do you want to join a group? Why

1218
01:11:12.960 --> 01:11:15.279
do you want to join a group? Because we may

1219
01:11:15.399 --> 01:11:21.000
learn in rows, but we we we grow in circles,

1220
01:11:21.640 --> 01:11:22.960
so we need to be in a group. And where

1221
01:11:23.000 --> 01:11:24.119
are you going to meet in these groups?

1222
01:11:24.199 --> 01:11:26.479
For the most part, you're going to meet outside of

1223
01:11:26.520 --> 01:11:26.920
the church.

1224
01:11:27.119 --> 01:11:28.720
Oh, in one of the groups. If you want to

1225
01:11:28.760 --> 01:11:31.600
be rooted so that we can connect you to God

1226
01:11:31.840 --> 01:11:34.600
and the church and your purpose, you need to pay

1227
01:11:34.920 --> 01:11:37.479
forty dollars. I mean, even though the church is brought

1228
01:11:37.479 --> 01:11:42.600
in thirty million dollars and has a four million dollars surplus,

1229
01:11:42.920 --> 01:11:45.520
we can't let people join these groups for free, or

1230
01:11:45.520 --> 01:11:47.640
at least the rooted group. We can't let them join that.

1231
01:11:47.720 --> 01:11:49.439
I mean, no, no, no, no, no, no, no no.

1232
01:11:49.560 --> 01:11:54.239
We got to charge you forty dollars. But is anything

1233
01:11:54.279 --> 01:12:00.239
going to ever disrupt this industrial complex of big of churches. No,

1234
01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:03.239
churches just operate as a business. They just operate as

1235
01:12:03.279 --> 01:12:07.399
a business. You are just the thing that provides them

1236
01:12:07.439 --> 01:12:12.079
the money to operate, and what you actually get for

1237
01:12:12.119 --> 01:12:14.920
the money. In this particular case, you're paying almost four

1238
01:12:15.000 --> 01:12:19.199
hundred thousand dollars per sermon, and considering the small, the

1239
01:12:19.279 --> 01:12:21.720
rooted group, you're not even getting that for free. You

1240
01:12:21.800 --> 01:12:23.439
get to pay forty dollars to get that.

1241
01:12:30.199 --> 01:12:36.159
Oh man, do you know what a podcaster with a

1242
01:12:36.199 --> 01:12:40.960
computer and a microphone could do with twenty five million dollars?

1243
01:12:42.359 --> 01:12:49.479
Do you know how much content someone could produce? Do

1244
01:12:49.520 --> 01:13:01.920
you understand that I have produced what.

1245
01:13:02.279 --> 01:13:05.159
About a little over four years, maybe five years, well

1246
01:13:05.199 --> 01:13:08.239
over four thousand hours of content, Well over four thousand

1247
01:13:08.239 --> 01:13:12.000
hours of content, well over four thousand hours. How many

1248
01:13:12.920 --> 01:13:15.439
How long would it take that church to produce four

1249
01:13:15.479 --> 01:13:18.640
thousand hours of content? When they're producing about fifty two

1250
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:23.439
hours of content a year now. They may be doing

1251
01:13:23.439 --> 01:13:25.520
that same sermon multiple times, but I mean, they're not

1252
01:13:25.560 --> 01:13:29.239
producing additional content. They don't even they had a podcast.

1253
01:13:29.479 --> 01:13:33.840
They had one and it ended thet They didn't do

1254
01:13:33.840 --> 01:13:37.079
anything with it, So they're not doing any additional content.

1255
01:13:37.079 --> 01:13:38.520
Because I went to look to see if there was

1256
01:13:38.560 --> 01:13:42.319
additional stuff. There's not been a new episode, so it's

1257
01:13:42.319 --> 01:13:45.199
like twenty twenty three or January first to twenty twenty four,

1258
01:13:47.960 --> 01:13:50.560
so they're not doing any new content. You look at

1259
01:13:50.600 --> 01:13:55.039
the church site, the quote unquote church podcast, their church

1260
01:13:55.119 --> 01:13:57.560
podcast with basically their church sermons. You get one sermon

1261
01:13:57.600 --> 01:14:02.600
a week, not even additional content there. So for twenty

1262
01:14:02.640 --> 01:14:06.039
five million dollars, you get fifty.

1263
01:14:05.680 --> 01:14:11.000
Two sermons in a year. In any podcaster, anybody with

1264
01:14:11.199 --> 01:14:15.479
just even a slide amount of dedication can produce probably

1265
01:14:15.520 --> 01:14:25.600
close to an hour content a day Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

1266
01:14:28.640 --> 01:14:31.039
But people will make sure the church brings in all

1267
01:14:31.039 --> 01:14:37.159
this money. So even if you use all the right words,

1268
01:14:37.680 --> 01:14:39.880
you ultimately produce the very thing.

1269
01:14:41.720 --> 01:14:45.880
That you say you're not. That's the disconnect I'm trying

1270
01:14:45.880 --> 01:14:48.920
to point out. That's the disconnect. And it's not even

1271
01:14:48.920 --> 01:14:52.079
about this church. It's not even about this church. The

1272
01:14:52.119 --> 01:14:54.199
only reason I'm using this church as a case study

1273
01:14:54.239 --> 01:14:58.079
is because I come across this video basically saying we're

1274
01:14:58.119 --> 01:15:00.239
not like all these other churches, and it's like it's

1275
01:15:00.239 --> 01:15:02.199
the exact and I see this all the time, even.

1276
01:15:01.960 --> 01:15:02.960
In conservative churches.

1277
01:15:03.119 --> 01:15:05.560
Oh, these churches do this, and these churches, and then

1278
01:15:05.560 --> 01:15:08.680
you go looking like and you do basically this. You've

1279
01:15:08.680 --> 01:15:11.800
got the basic same template, you just wrap it in

1280
01:15:11.880 --> 01:15:15.479
different language, you dress it up. You still have the

1281
01:15:15.520 --> 01:15:19.119
activities to find the food, this, the youth group, this

1282
01:15:19.319 --> 01:15:21.399
and the butt luck and this and this. You still

1283
01:15:21.399 --> 01:15:23.239
do all the same things. And many of you still

1284
01:15:23.279 --> 01:15:25.840
do the small groups where everyone's leaving the very building

1285
01:15:25.840 --> 01:15:32.039
you're paying just to getting money to maintain. And then

1286
01:15:32.079 --> 01:15:34.520
you'll claim that the small groups is where really it

1287
01:15:34.640 --> 01:15:37.079
really happens. Well, if it's really happening in the small group,

1288
01:15:37.159 --> 01:15:38.720
then I just say get rid of the building and

1289
01:15:38.760 --> 01:15:48.039
just meet in small groups and be done with it, right,

1290
01:15:49.119 --> 01:15:54.840
And then you don't need twenty five million dollars. Oh yeah, then,

1291
01:15:55.119 --> 01:15:57.199
oh what would happen if everyone broke up into small

1292
01:15:57.199 --> 01:16:00.680
groups and they're all ran by lay people. All the

1293
01:16:00.680 --> 01:16:05.640
people in the church would be without a job. We

1294
01:16:05.760 --> 01:16:12.399
can't have that. All right, This has been a long Saturday.

1295
01:16:13.039 --> 01:16:15.520
We've spent way too much time on this. But that's okay.

1296
01:16:16.439 --> 01:16:20.960
I just man, it's just hard to pray. All you

1297
01:16:21.000 --> 01:16:23.079
do is you start digging into this and you just like,

1298
01:16:23.119 --> 01:16:26.039
it becomes insane. So we've done enough for now. We

1299
01:16:26.079 --> 01:16:28.640
will review the sermon. We will review the sermon next

1300
01:16:28.680 --> 01:16:31.479
time because it's on Isaiah fifty. I mean, come on,

1301
01:16:31.680 --> 01:16:34.279
it can't get much better than that, right, So we

1302
01:16:34.359 --> 01:16:38.560
will review the sermon and hopefully, hopefully it will be

1303
01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:42.159
entertaining to listen. I mean, it'll fit perfectly with our

1304
01:16:42.199 --> 01:16:46.920
Isaiah stuff. It'll fit perfectly with our Isaiah stuff. So yeah,

1305
01:16:46.920 --> 01:16:48.680
there you have it. That's what's going on in the

1306
01:16:48.680 --> 01:16:51.920
modern church. Now you may say, well that's a horrible example.

1307
01:16:52.159 --> 01:16:57.159
Just remember what does your church claim what is actually happening.

1308
01:16:57.720 --> 01:17:00.119
There's sometimes a disconnect, and it's easy for all of

1309
01:17:00.199 --> 01:17:02.199
us to get deceived by that disconnect.

1310
01:17:04.159 --> 01:17:04.600
God bless