When the Words Don’t Match the Method Pt 1

0:02 Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is the Theology Central podcast, making Theology Central. Good afternoon, everyone. It is Saturday, April fifth, twenty twenty five. It is currently one fifteen pm Central Time, and I'm coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located right here in Albilene, Texas. Now, before I really start introducing what we're going to be discussing, and I think this is going to probably turn into maybe two or three episodes, there's no way I can get through everything in one. Maybe we'll break this down. I never I didn't really have an intention. I mean, my intention was not really, oh, let's do a small mini series about this.

0:52 It's just one of those things. I kind of stumbled upon it and here we are. But I can't really start talking about it unless I just really confess and just be very open and honest with everyone. When it comes to how churches should operate, how they should function, how the right way churches should work. I'm the last person to be able to say anything, at least from a human perspective, because from a human perspective, look, my ideas, my thoughts, my ways are as a complete failure nobody wants the way I think church should operate. Right. People may hear me on a podcast and go ooh, I wish churches would do things that way. No, I don't even believe when most people say that that they really even believe it. Because as soon as your church implemented and did things the way I think churches need to do things, you would leave the church. You would get irritated, you would get mad because it did not feel like church, and it did not look like church. Because I think basically the way most churches do things, I think that entire methodology, that fhilosophy, that ideology, I think, I think it all just needs to be burnt to the ground.

2:05 I'm not talking about burning literal churches to the ground. The ideas, the philosophies about how churches should work. It's almost like there's a template out there and everyone follows it. Everyone you know, marches to the beat of that drum. And I have always been opposed to it from the very beginning, From the very first Sunday that I became the pastor of Victory Baptist Church in the middle of nowhere, Texas, I basically said, look, if we're gonna have a church here, we're gonna do things so radically different, or there's no point that we even exist. What's the point of existing when in this part of Texas, if you take about a fifty mile radius, there's probably three hundred churches. If you just take the city of Albilene, Texas, I mean there are so there are hundreds of churches. The joke is there's a church on every corner, and that's not really that's not even really being hyperbolic. So my thing is always like, if we're going to ex this, then we have to be radically different than all the other churches.

3:03 Because if we're going to be so similar to the other churches, then what's the point Just go to one of them, right, said, Well, I don't like that church, and I don't like that church, and I don't like that church. So you're just starting another church because you don't like that church. But you basically want a church like the church that you supposedly don't like. I don't understand that. I don't understand why there's you know, two hundred churches in a town and you can barely tell them apart is that, well we believe this, and they believe that only give me a break. You don't even really focus on doctrine in the first place. Who cares what anybody believes? You all just want to go for your own little well whatever church is supposed to be. But I'm gonna admit it though. I mean, you can hear my frustration and my irritation because look, even though I failed, because look I started Victory when Victory Baptists, I didn't start it. When Victory Baptist Church started and brought me in, I was immediately like, we're gonna do this completely different. And there was like, yeah, we're gonna do it different. Yeah. And then within six months, I think we already lost like fifty percent of the people, okay, and then we built way up. Oh, things were going good, and then boom, everyone started leaving and started leaving and started leaving and started leaving and started leaving and started leaving and started leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving a living until now we're basically we're finished.

4:21 We're done, and all practical purposes, my strategy, my idea was, we're not going to do church like anybody else did not work. I was opposed to all of the church growth methods. I rejected it all. I was like, we're gonna be a place, and only thing I have to offer anybody here is the in depth teaching of God's Word, theology, and church history. We're not gonna have fun food, games, activities. You're going to show up here to be fed the Word of God the end. That's it. We're gonna wear and we're gonna go in depth. We're not just gonna learn theology. We're gonna do theology. We're not just gonna learn Hermanudic, We're gonna do Hermoneutics. We're gonna dig in and we're gonna challenge. We're gonna question and again. I get excited talking that way, but the reality is it's a failure. So for me to offer any what appears to be criticism, it's really foolish because anybody can say you're a failure, You're an idiot. Those churches are successful, and you're right. All the other church ideas, philosophies and models are successful. They are from a human perspective. I'm an absolute failure, failure. I mean, I can't even stress it enough. I'm an idiot, I'm a moron. Nobody wants to do things the way I think they should be done.

5:44 But that's okay. I would rather be a failure, but being honest with the way I think things should have gone, than simply caving in and adopting and just turning church and what everybody wants, which would be just like all the other churches. And at that point, I don't even know why we would exist, why we're gonna exist when we're basically like the church two blocks away or across town. That's just it makes no sense to me. But that's that's the way people want. And I already get frustrated with it. I remember when Paul Washer put out his famous sermon about the what ten indictments against the modern Church. I got so tired people saying how great this sermon is so amazing, this sermon is so wonderful, and I'd be like, what church do you go to? And you look at the church website and you'd be like, this sermon is condemning the very church you go to. The You like the way it sounds, you like the idea that it condemns that church model or that church model.

6:41 But your church falls right in the midst of all of that. Your church may not say your seeker sensitive, you may not say you're into all of this stuff, but you got enough things that are still built somewhat similar to that. Your church is a community center more than it's anything else. But oh, you know when you say that, people get mad. No, it's the kind of church I want. No, you don't. You're happy with what you have other than when you get mad about the color of the carpet or Susan says something about you that you don't like, or the pastor irritates you, then you'll just go find another church, basically just like the church you left. That's what all you people want. Just I'm so tired of hearing, oh, we want what is wrong with American Christianity, biblical illiteracy, theological illiteracy, and then when a church actually tries to correct that, people don't want it. So I'm jaded and I'm cynical. I'm just gonna be honest. But the main thing I want you to take away from that is I'm acknowledging to you I am a failure. My ideas do not work. My ideas are trash. I got no problem admitting that, because again I would rather go down swinging. And I'm looking I mean my church, I mean it's over, it's done.

7:56 I mean we had a good run, twenty two, twenty three years, twenty four years, whatever it was, and it's going down like the Titanic. Okay, that's that's fine, that's okay. I'm willing to accept the defeat. I'm willing to accept defeat. And and you know, everyone can go find a church like all the other churches and everyone can be happy, and that's fine. So I just need to get that out of the way because what I'm going to do today I want I want to make sure this is very clear. What I'm doing today is not like a hit piece. It's not an expose. I want to do kind of a case study. I want to have a discussion.

8:38 I want to try to look at this idea of how a church, because we're going to look at one specific church, how a church and more and I think to be fair church is but we're gonna use one as a case study, maybe even more specifically, how a pastor of a church, or how pastors of churches can seem to say all the right things about God. They can seem to say all the right things about preaching, they can seem to say all the right things about the authority of Scripture, and yet they still build and operate a church using a model that contradicts everything they say.

9:25 And that's where I get so frustrated by so many Christians and so many churches. They sound it sounds so good. We care about preaching, we care about teaching, we care about doctrine, we care about this, we care about that, And then you look at the church and go, really, that's what caring about those things looks like. That's what it looks like. You care more about community in this and that and feel good and at the amount of preaching you're putting out, I don't think you care that much. Now. See that sounds like I'm criticizing, but I just want you to try to see that. I believe there is a contradiction and and and and it always frustrates me because sometimes things will sound so good and yet it turns out not to be that good. I'm going to try to explore how words and methods can quietly drift apart.

10:25 You got the right words, but the actual methods don't match the words. I want you to see how when everything may sound biblical, everything may sound faithful, everything may sound philologically grounded, but the reality and practice and method is it's not those things. The words sound biblical, the words sound faithful, the words sound philologically grounded. They sound that way, but in practice you're kind of like, what nobody am I the only one seeing the disconnect? But no, no, no, as long as you give everyone, if you tell everyone the right words and you give them a little sense of Bible and Jesus, then they're like, oh, this is wonderful.

11:10 But then when you really look at what you're doing, you're like, it's just it's just the community center. Stop it, to stop your talk. But okay, But I like the churches that are more like, look, we don't care about being a seminary or or. We don't care about theology and doctrine. We don't care about in depth teaching of scripture, we don't care about any of that. This is what we care about. Now. Those churches I applaud because they're bold and they're honest, and they're like, we're not. We don't care about doing church the old way. What ticks me off is all the people who will criticize those churches who are honest, and then you look at their church and you're like, and yours is so much better. Okay, you just sound better. You just have the appearance, you have the appearance of godliness. But when you get down to it, it's just this same joke. You're just not so outward about it. Because I believe it's not uncommon to hear pastors say affirm things like preaching should glorify God. Now, just make sure you understand that it's really a meaningless statement.

12:18 Every church believes their preaching glorifies God. You don't have a church going, Hey, today, we're gonna do sermons and we're not going to glorify God. Every church believes that they glorify God and the way they do church. Every church believes that our worship glorifies God. One church will say no, no, no, your worship doesn't glorify God. Your worship doesn't glorify God. Everyone else may accuse the other not glorifying God. But every church believes that their worship glorifies God. They believe their preaching glorifies God. They believe that their small groups glorify God. They all believe that it's it's useless to say, what's your church committed to glorifying God? And that's it. It's irrelevant because everyone believes that they're glorifying God. There's no church out there going, hey, this Sunday, we're not gonna glorify God. It's it's just it's a slogan.

13:02 It's a bumper sticker, that's what it is. But pastors will affirm that. The pastors will hold up their Bible and say, the Bible is the foundation, the Bible is the word of God, the Bible is the authority. And then you'll go then you'll look at what their churches are doing, like, wait a minute, that sounds like you hold to the regulative principle. So your church will do absolutely nothing unless it is clearly commanded in scripture or you have clear examples of this being the right thing to do. But you'll look at their churches like pollux and this and that and this activity. The Bible doesn't say anything. I thought you said the Bible was the final authority. So you don't go with the regulative principle.

13:45 You go with the normative principle that you can do anything unless it's specifically condemned. Well, no, we don't do that. And it's it's the churches do whatever is right in their own eyes and don't tell me otherwise because that's what they do. That don't even hold to a true most cases regulative principle, and I don't even say consistent with a normative print principle. But they will still say the Bible is our foundation. They will say things like we're here to we're here to build up believers, not entertain consumers. Oh that sounds good, doesn't it. We're here to build up believers, not entertain consumers. That sounds good.

14:27 I mean, get that on a T shirt, get it printed, get it on the church website. But let's let's have some coffee mugs that we can give everyone. Right, We're here to build up believers, not entertain consumers. And everybody will go to church. I go to a church that builds up believers, but that does not entertain consumers. And you look at the church going, I think you are the I don't think you see what's happening. We believe in expository preaching. Read the text, explain the text, apply the text. Oh, your pastors and then you go listen to their sermon, You're like, really that that's what that's what you call that? Okay, okay, now all right, you go run along. It's fun. It's like it's like watching a little kids playing dress up, right, okay? And I'm like, okay, ah, that's so cute. Yeah, think you you call that expository preciation.

15:20 Oh you're really digging into that text? Didn't you write you? And I know I sound sarcastic, but a lot of times when I hear that and I go listen to the sermons, I'm like, what a joke, because I could take the same text and go you didn't even bother with this or this or this or this or this or this this or this or this or this or this, And it's like, well that okay, okay, you tell yourself that. See, all of those things are the right thing to say. They sound like convictions, They sound like they're trying to offer clarity. But what happens when the actual structure of the church, the actual Sunday experience, the actual content of the preaching, and maybe even the messaging on the website seem to tell a completely different story. What happens when the form undercuts the function. That's what I want to try to examine today. I'm not here to criticize a person.

16:26 I'm not here to criticize personalities. I'm trying to investigate a larger problem that touches thousands of churches and millions of Christians. That you say the right thing, but in function, in reality, you're not doing anything that you're claiming to do. And how do I know that? Study after study after study after study says Christians are biblically and philologically illiterate, while going to churches that claim the Bible is the authority, We teach the Bible, we equip believers, we don't entertain consumers, and they say all the right things, but yet biblically, logically illiterate. Oh but they sound it sounds so good.

17:10 Can a church say it's committed to biblical preaching while using the stage like a platform, the Bible like a slogan, and the sermon like a motivational boost. What happens when the method contradicts the message? That's the question I'm going to try to trace. That's that's the that's the the idea I'm going to try to explore. Now, here's what we're going to do. We're gonna start off with an interview with a pastor of a very very, very large influential church. Because it sounds good. In fact, you could say it even made me go, wow, this this could be interesting. It sounded grounded, it sounded aware of the problems plaguing modern evangelicalism. It sounded good. I was like this, this looks good because I mean, the name of the video is the church is starving its people. The church is starving its people. And I was like, whoa this that that caught my attention. But then after we and you're going to hear the interview, after we we interview, or after we interview, after we listen and review the interview, then we're gonna look at the church behind those words.

18:33 We're gonna look at the actual church. We're gonna say, here's the interview from the pastor of this big influential church, right multiple locations. I think it's like ten thousand people attend on a weekly basis. Well, we're gonna then look at the church itself. We're gonna look at the actual church's website, and then we're gonna listen to a sermon and we're gonna see if all of this matches up or if there seems to be some apparent contradiction. We're gonna we're gonna ask, like, does the method seem to match the message? Is the theology that's preached the same as the theology that's practiced? And how does this church present itself to the world. Now, I'm gonna try to invite you to wrestle with some of these same questions.

19:27 What do we do when the words are right but they seem but they the way these words are delivered undermines everything they claim to uphold. That's what I'm gonna try my best to get you to think this way and to struggle with this. Now. I know again, I know in some ways this is an absolute waste of my time because nobody really cares. People. People are more than content with the way church is. They say they're not, but just give me a break, Yes they are, because if people had gotten Look, there's one thing we know. The church as it's been operating clearly is not doing its job. Because every study says Christians are biblically and theologically illiterate. That's a fact, right, Yet everyone says, oh no, the churches. But churches don't change.

20:17 Everyone keeps following the same tired template. In fact, the pastors all sound the same. The churches, the sermons sound the same, the websites look alike. It's just like manufactured Churchianity. And it's like, give me a break, man, give me stop telling oh, we want something to No, you stinking don't. Okay, as soon as you get something different, you're gonna whine and complain about it. All right. So it's like, I know that this is an exercise in futility, but here we are. So let's start where this all began for me? All right? I opened up YouTube. Why did I open YouTube? Because I always check to see if there's a little red number there, a red dot there, to tell me that someone has left a comment telling me that I'm an idiot, or that my sermons are trash, or I need to learn how to do this. Whatever they're going to tell me. It's usually something negative most not all the time, but sometimes I shouldn't be too hyperbolic there, right, there was more negative in the past. I think people have kind of stopped that now, but I always still check just to make sure that there's something you know, just not outrageous there, right. So I looked and I'm like, okay, I think there was a notification somebody something when we did the body OIDs thingy. They didn't like something I did.

21:35 I can't remember. They were telling me not to do something. I can't remember what it was. But I'm like, all right, great, no big deal. It wasn't even anything I was worried about responding to, all right. And then I saw this thumbnail and it showed someone like standing in the center aisle of a church right holding it looks like a plate of chicken nuggets. And I'm like, this looks interesting. And it says the church is starving its own pace something along those lines, and all the people are looking at the pastor holding this I guess cheese chicken nuggets, but they all seem to be starving. And I'm like, whoa, Yeah, the church is starving its own people was the name of the video. I'm like, whoa, that that sounds that sounds interesting. I mean, I caught my attention. So what we're gonna do is we're gonna review this. I want you to hear and you tell me how if you were to listen to this would you be like, whoa, this sounds good. This sounds really really really really good.

22:32 And then what we're gonna do is we're going to take all the positive that I think. I mean, the video title seems positive. It seems that it's going to be going in a right direction. I thought it was going somewhat in a right direction. I even gave the transcript to artificial intelligence, and it was like even seeming to think it was going in the right direction. It's when we started doing further investigating that it was seemed like this is a wild contradiction. But we'll see if the contradiction is as bad as I feel that it is. Not feel that it is. There's a lot of things I don't know, right, so just remember that I'm I love to take you through the journey and we we wherever we're gonna end up, we're gonna end up. We'll see together where we're gonna end up. But let's let's just go to the video and we will see. I don't know anything about the person who put out the I don't know anything about it. I just saw it and like, oh this looks Oh wait what is this?

23:23 And so well, then when I started It's just there was something. I don't know what it was. There was something, maybe the way the pastor is talking, maybe the way he looks. I don't know. Something just said to me. Wait, I think this is like a megachurch pastor. This something's unless his church is radically different than the way I think it is. Something seems off here. So and it's just it's just my own cynicism, my own skepticism. It's just like this sounds so good, but but who is he? Like? What is this church? Well, we're gonna get there soon. Are you ready? Here we go. Here's the interview.

24:06 What is your goal for the Sunday morning service? So, like for that is it one service and then satellite it out or do you do multiple services on the morning. Of multiple Okay, yeah, what. Is your goal for that service? Like in that hour and fifteen minutes, what do you think, like all of your staff is going towards this direction if we accomplish this goal. The primary goal is that God is pleased, like the glorification of God in that moment, and that I want to be faithful to give voice to what he wants said, which is one of my favorite definitions of preaching is a preaching is giving voice to what God wants said, what God has already said, and is never changing word to an ever changing culture.

24:52 Doesn't that all sound good? Doesn't that I want to give voice to what God has said in his word, the ever changing We're the ever change. No, I'm saying the never changing word to an ever changing culture. Something along those lines. I'm paraphrasing. All sounds really good. Nice slogans. I mean, he's ready to go, he's got the slogans, he's got to catchy sayings. I mean, that works right. But immediately what caught my attention was, wait a minute, so you care about God's glory? Okay, preaching, but wait a minute. I could tell multiple campuses, multiple services. I'm like, okay, so this isn't some small church. There's a big church, multiple locations, multiple services. Okay, all right, now in my mind's thinking, does this sound like a church? I'm already said, this is where I already started getting a little like.

25:46 But but it sounded good. So here we go. And so that would be the primary. I think the secondary would be the what we might call, you know, the edification of the saints, the building up of people's faith. If we were to use the you know, the words of you know, Proverbs the wise in our gathering, which I would say wise in the sense of these are Christians, these are Bible people, like they're growing and we need to equip them in their faith. That secondarily, and then the third is just the recognition that there are people that need to know Jesus, the conviction of sin, the invitation. There's always going to be some sort of an invitation to come into a relationship with Christ in that moment.

26:26 So the meat of what we do is Bible teaching and preaching. The meat of what we do is Bible preaching and Bible teaching. The meat of what we do, this is the primary thing we do. We preach and we teach. That's the meat. I wonder, what do you think. I think it's a big steak, a big hamburger. What do you think it is? What do you think? Is it just like a full, a four course meal? What do you think? I mean, it's their their main focus is the preaching and teaching of God's Word. That sounds good.

27:08 I mean I hear that, and I'm like, that's the kind of church I want to go to. Where the meat is the preaching of God's word. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna show up with a big plate and ready to dig in. Right, it sounds good, See, I remember the words. We talked about this when the words sound good, But what happens in practice, Well, we're gonna find out, because we're gonna be reviewing a sermon. Oh that just happens to come from Oh, let me guess somewhere between Isaiah forty and Isaiah fifty five. Yeah, because well that's where we always end up lately, isn't it? Okay? But let's see what else he has to say. That's what we spend the majority of our time doing gathering.

27:50 So what I heard was God believers and then non believers. It's kind of like the tiers. And I think, ironically, and this this is a I think a fair critique of the megachurch is that when you put the the seekers, so to speak, or those that are outside of Christ first, it's like the it's like chiropractor trying to establish, you know, fixing the spine, Like if that's your audience first, which I think that for many, the heart and the intent of that is good but then what ends up unintentionally happening is that you end up sending maybe a message to the Edified that well, you know, it's kind of like serving a meal.

28:30 It's like, hey, we're going to serve chicken nuggets every week, and we got a group over here that's kind of starving, and then quite possibly God could be dishonored. I think actually, if you change it to where the primary people that you're preaching and teaching to are the save the edified via the Word of God. It's living in active, let it do its thing, then those who are far from God get invited and get fed and get convicted as well. You don't have to compromise. I think some people are like, welly just really highly value evangelism. You can do discipleshipping and people get saved. From my experience, now, when I. Heard that, I'm like, oh, so he's kind of criticizing the megachurch. The Mega church just serving chicken nuggets, right, so he's gonna offer me, he's gonna disciple. All right, that's okay, that all sounds good. Right, Let's see where it goes.

29:27 Apologetically speaking the Word of God, it will always return. No doubt, I mean, if nothing else, let me just get up there and read the Bible. It's like that's like, you know, that's at least a base hit when you get up and you're like, I'm not really sure how the sermon's gonna go at the very least, like, just make sure that the Bible is read. I mean, my like, even in preaching, I'm actually not very good at outlining. But if I just know, like if I can just like read the text, explain the text, exply apply the text. Read the text, explain the text, apply the text, that's gonna be a decent sermon. And I think that's why people would all right. All right, did you did you hear that? Read the text? Explain the text? Read the text, Explain the text. All right, read the text, Explain the text. That that sounds all that sounds. It sounds so good. Read, explain apply the text it sounds. If all I do is that, then it's gonna be a good sermon. That sounds so good.

30:24 Now just keep that in mind when we get to the actual sermon. Does he read it? Does he actually explain it? Do we really understand the text? We will we will find we will do that here in just a second. Hang God, I gotta having a technical difficulty here. Give me one second. All right, I'm gonna have to all right, give me a second. I apologize for this. All right. My Udeo software crashed, so that recording is now gone. All right, that's that's not good. All right. Now let's get back here. Okay. Now what we'll do is we'll get back to.

31:12 This interview and get it back to about the time I think it's around here. Okay, let me see if I've got it. I may have to do a little work to get it back to where we need but we'll get right back to the interview. Here we go active, let it do its thing. Than those who are far from God get invited and get fed and get convicted as well. You don't have to compromise. I think some people are like, why just really highly value evangelism. You can do discipleship and people get saved. From my experience, unapologetically speaking the word of God, it will always return. No doubt. I mean, if nothing else, let me just get up there and read the Bible. It's like that's like, you know, that's that's at least a base hit when you get up and you're like, I'm not really sure how the sermon is going to go at the very least, like, just make sure that the Bible is read. I mean, my like, even in preaching, I'm actually not very good at outlining. But if I just know, like if I can just like read the text, explain the text, exply apply the text, read the text, explain the text, apply the text.

32:11 Read the text, explain the text, apply the text, read it, explain it, apply it all. Right, now, the reading, I'm sure he does better than I do in that applying it probably does well. Now see, I don't know because again, your application has to go directly to the explanation of the text. So if the explanation is off, the application will be off. Now, so this all sounds everything in this sounds so good. This is where this is where oh, this is where things again my introduction, I'm telling you, this is where I get frustrated. Is the church can sound so good, but we're gonna we're gonna work through this case study so well, it's gonna take us a while to get to the sermon. I don't even know if we're gonna get to the sermon in this episode, but we're gonna try our best to get there.

33:01 That's going to be a decent sermon. And I think that's why people would kind of separate you amongst this group, and so you don't have to kind of out anyone or speak illy of this model. But I think the perception is when you see that many people and you understand that the power of your words could keep bringing in these masses if you shallow that down, if you do speak to the non believer, give them a raw, raw speech, give this cultural Christianity, which I'd love to talk to you more about. Give this kind of cultural Christianity where it's like, hey, it's totally fine to like kind of live your life outside of here, but you could just come in and blend in and no one's going to convict you. No one's keeping track of what you're doing Monday through Saturday. But this is just a part of your Sunday. And the kind of sermon that they're hearing is not pressing in on that whatsoever. And I could see how this large church model, if you knew the algorithm of hey, if you just soften the blow, if you talk to a specific group of people, there's probably a good chance that if the marketing is right, the music is good, the speakers is awesome, then you could you could hit some some very big churches. And so I would say that that coming from you with twelve thousand people is probably not expected because a lot of people would say that a lot of these pastors may be narcissistic, maybe just want the kind of big sanctuary. They have softened a ton.

34:25 But for your experience, it's worked the other way. Like you've still kept to it. I've heard your sermons. I don't think you really pull back too many punches and so, and we could talk about one of the more popular ones that have happened. So twelve thousand people. He's not like the other mega church pastors. He's a mega church pastor, because when you have twelve thousand people, you're a mega church pastor. But he's not like the other people. He doesn't pull back. He doesn't give them the chicken nuggets. He brings in the full blown steak. He gives them the good teaching. See it sounds so good. And I guess he's got a famous message that I guess is somewhat controversial. Maybe we'll need to find that message as we continue again This is just a case study of what pastors and churches say versus what they do. I don't care anything specifically about this individual. And when I say that, I don't care about this individual as far as as far I'm not trying to make a point about this individual.

35:24 I'm trying to make a point much larger about churches, all kinds of churches, small, big, We all talk a big game. What do we actually do when we strip away all of the marketing and all of the hype. And you're still saying it worked absolutely? And I think this goes back to like recognizing, picking out a few the worst of the examples for the entire thing, and then casting it all in that shadow, like the stereotypes. And the reason why we have stereotypes is because there's nuggets of truth to them. Right. I've heard like some uh, you know, I've been on social media seen sermonclips around like what in the world where they are we thinking here, this is that's a circus, Like that's crazy, But those are like unfortunately, those are you know, they in the margins, and that's not necessarily representative of most. Now. I run in lots and lots of pastor circles and pastors that pastor lots of large churches, and it's it's a very small percentage that's thinking, how can I just grow my church bigger because I want to have a bigger church. Quite honestly, bigger churches are a pain in the butt because it's like you because here and there might have even been in some of the origins of this like wow, it would just be amazing if we could just grow a big church. Well, if you grow a big church full of like really spiritually immature people, that's a nightmare because it's all about it's like feeding the me monster. It's all about them, all about their experience consumer Christianity. That's and and as

36:56 a pastor, we're called a shepherd, so at some point they've got to grow up in to maturity. So we never like and we never like set out to say how can we just build big crowds? Ironically, even here, especially like I would say post COVID, I never ever want to be abrasive. But I'm okay to be bold. I'm actually okay to and I'll tell my church and I and I think I think most people want truth, even truth that's a little bit up in their face a little bit, because everybody wants to be challenged to grow. What they don't want is to be talked down to or at by somebody who is coming across as if, hey man, I got this all figured out and you just need to do as I do. That people hate that stuff, and so I don't. I've not arrived. I am.

37:37 The same Holy spirit that's living in me, is the same holy spirit that's living in others. And I'm still in process to grow as a disciple. I've still got my weak spots. So what I love about expository preaching is to say, we're going to address what's next in the text. Oh so now he's saying he does expository preaching. So he says he does expository preaching. He reads, he explains, he applies. He's not like other mega church pastors. He doesn't give people chicken nuggets. He gives them the full mill. He's he's willing to tell them the truth. He doesn't want to be condescending or speak down to people, but he's willing to be bold. He's willing to tell them the truth even if they may not like it. Oh, WHOA, this is sounding great man. This is sounding like this sounds like a great church. Right, this sounds I mean we should all possibly move and go here, That's what I mean. I mean maybe twelve thousand people, they could they could use another four or five, six thousand, but we should all go there, right because it sounds so good? Right.

38:37 So it's not my agenda, it's God's. And before I ever stand to say, hey, thus saith the Lord, I need to actually sit in the text for a while and say, God, what do you have to say to me? And so I'll say to our people all the time, hey what. Am Okay, Now there's my problem. No, you don't sit in the text and say God, what do you have to say to me? No, you go to the text to say what does the text say? Because the text is most of the time not about you. Okay, So now I'm starting to get friends. That's not expository preaching. See he's already just distray. It's not expository preaching. Expository preaching is about the text. The text is not about Lord, what do you have to say to me? No, the text is what does the text say? Because it may not be saying anything to you? Because I don't know you preached from Isaiah fifty for crying out loud. I wonder who that's about. I don't know, But do we need to go through that whole thing again? All right?

39:27 But okay, all right, So now I'm already getting irritated because you already see the uh. Everything has sounded so good, but right there's like a red flag. Whoa wait, wait, wait, what You're gonna sit in the text to see what God has to say to you? No? No, you spend the week in the text trying to figure out what God said said in his word to the original recipients. I'm gonna say next, out of this text may step on your soul toes, but God has already broke in my feet, like little things like that where it's like they're going, oh, like you're still you're still on the examining table as well. So once again, one of my other favorite definitions of preaching is that I'm just one beggar trying to tell other beggars where to find food.

40:13 And so I think that what we have to come at it is a posture of humility and brokenness. He's got all these cool little sayings, He's got all of these little slogans. Man, people love these slogans. You write those things down, people put them in their notes, they write them in the front of their Bible. Oh, these are good slogans. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with slogans and wrong with sayings. I'm not saying that people love that stuff. Okay, that's great. This just shows he's a very good communicator. He's got these things that they're ready and they sound good. They sound spiritual, but also a sense of boldness and boldness and abrasiveness and like mean spirited. I'm not talking about the guys that are just like wanting to get clicks by just saying like outlandish things. But boldness is New Testament Christianity, and boldness is actually what brings people to conviction, repentance, and faith. I love the fact that Jesus was so tender with people, but he was also bold and he would like, you know, the rich ong ruler, and so everything you have give to the poor, come follow me. And he's like, I don't think I can do that, and Jesus like, okay, it's like he didn't like water it down. He didn't run back after him and say, well, you know, if you just get half, that'd be good too. A woman at the well man like it's like Kate, she's so thirsty, give me this living water. Well, go go get your husband. I don't have a husband. Oh you've had five Wow Jesus like like that's pretty bold, like and it wasn't. It didn't crush her because there's a difference between being shamed and convicted, and I think we got to get that right. So, yeah,

41:45 I'm totally out on like watered down Ted talks self improvement. Let me use a little bit of scripture and proof texting to kind of just say the thing I want to say. Oh so he's out of this self improvement just using scripture to say what I want to say. Ted talks watered down. He's against all of that because when he opens the Bible, it's expository. He's gonna dig into the text. Just keep that in mind, right, Just keep that in mind, because when we listen to the sermons, you can tell me if they agree or disagree. Right, you can tell me whether they agree or disagree. You you may come to a completely different conclusion by the time this is over. You may go this is my favorite pastor this is my favorite broadcaster. I'm gonna I'm gonna subscribe to their sermons.

42:29 I'm gonna listen to them all, and biomeans that's great. If I lead you to what fits and works for you, great. Ill. Well, I just think we need to consider how we can possibly sound that good and maybe in practice it doesn't quite go that way. We'll see where this goes. But I also think it's a misnomer to say you can't get up and be bold with God's truth and then let him do what it'll do. Is it Charles Spurgeon who said you don't need to defend the line and just let it out of this cage. And I've just seen that over and over and over again. One thing that I'm starting to really think through is when maturing believers, it seems like there's like a conversation happening.

43:11 And I mean, you know this probably more than I do, like being in ministry for so long, but there's always cycles, and people seem to be more wanting tradition, more wanting something rooted or sacramental or liturgy of some sort to redecrete every once in a while, to go back to a hymn every once in a while to actually take I would actually like to talk to you about your theology on both the eucharists slash communion and baptism, like kind of what you think about that? WHOA people want to go back to sacraments. You do realize sacramental system is a completely You understand that that's a completely different theology if you're going sacramental. So I don't think that there's no way this pastor sacramental. It's an evangelical megature. They're not. They don't hold the sacraments, they hold the ordinances. So I hope they get I hope the pastor corrects this immediately. I mean, if he's an expository pastor who doesn't give people chicken nuggets, he will be like, WHOA wait a minute, We do not hold the sacraments. We hold the ordinances because sacraments are visible means of grace and okay and salviav okay, we could get in. Okay, we'll see where this goes. But that caught my attention as well.

44:21 But it seems like historical Protestantism was really like firm on sacraments and liturgy, trying to have some type of a rhythm of spiritual disciplines. And I think somewhere along the line we were like, this is fundamental, this is traditionalists, Like we're just being legalistic now, like we don't even know what these things are talking about or care about them. We just do them and it's not coming from the heart anymore or something like that. But of course society just always circles back around, and there's all these kind of stats that are coming out, especially young men that want something more simple, want something more slow. We're in right now. Just the fastest paced lifestyle in human history, Like we're just constantly bombarded. And then I mean, I think, to my opinion, now a fair critique is now we walk into church and it's kind of entertainment as well, and so like we have these lights, we have these like just parading smoke and all these this kind of what people are calling worship tainment. And I don't know how I feel about that yet, but worship tainment. And it's like, man, I thought this was a place like could come escape to to be a little bit more slow, to be a little bit more reverential, to be with my believers, not in a dark room, looking at this super lit up stage.

45:36 I'm cracking up because he's describing the homepage of the very church of the pastor he's talking to, which is this big lit up stage which looks like worship tainment. That's what it looks like. It looks like worship tainments. That's what it looks like. It looks like I mean, he's literally describing the church that he's talking this pastor to, and it's like sacrament. Now, now, i think maybe there have been some studies that people are looking for something different. They kind of grown tired of this worship tainment, this entertainment, and they want something liturgical, maybe something rooted in historical Christianity, maybe a liturgy, maybe a creed. Okay, and that is an interesting development, right, There's been a lot of discussion of younger men, it seems, possibly heading towards Catholicism or Greek Orthodoxy. There has been some discussion of that. Now he's talking to someone who's not Greek Orthodox, not Roman Catholic, not liturgical, and definitely not sacramental. So I'm going to be interesting to see if the pastor even corrects this discussion of sacraments.

46:47 Here where everything is just so timed out and I have no breath, and I'm starting to kind of understand that. And I don't know if it's because I'm just kind of growing in my faith and wanting to slow down a little bit with my relationship with God and try not to distract myself and just be as intentional as possible with all my disciplines. But it seems like that's kind of what even the outside world is kind of expecting, like when they think of Christianity, when they think of religion, they think of something to kind of hit the brakes and to answer questions. Don't entertain me, don't try to slight of hand me. I just want the real thing, like, is what do you guys truly believe? And then believers on the other side are saying like, hey, maybe we've been eating chicken nuggets for a while, we kind of actually want to move on to that next meal.

47:31 How do you feel about that? Do you think that there is ways that a larger church can pivot to answer some of these things, especially with young men, that like are you against liturgy? Are you against creeds? Are you against hims? Are you against bringing back communion to kind of be a more sacramental type of mentality? And like, are you hearing any of those conversations and you're. You can't. What do you mean bring it back to be sacramental? If you bring it back as a sacrament, then what you're saying is that by partaking of the Lord's Supper you receive the forgiveness of sense that something is imparted that they're we'd have to look at a Lutheran or Catholic or Greek Orthodoxy view of a sacramental system.

48:17 So why he can't used the word sacrament there like sacramental sacrament maybe three four times? So I'm assuming this pastor who's about expository preaching, and I'm assuming he's going to fix that immediately. I mean, he should correct that immediately unless he believes in sacramental but he's it's an evangelical megachurch. It's not sacramental unless it is, and then that's going to be very interesting. Their own Like I guess pastor groups people like believers coming up to you and saying like, hey, can we slow it down a little bit? Like what are you hearing on that side? Yeah? No, I appreciate that. Wow, man, there's a lot there, There's a lot. I mean, I think First of all, I would say, like, I'm totally with you in this sense.

48:59 I've got a heart for young men as well. And I think really what they're desiring is like just authenticity and real talk. Which is why I think they're attracted to podcasts like Rogan and Jordan Peterson and those types of things, is they're just like man. Just in fact, I think there's been the watering down of a lot of pulpits, so the young men are running a podcasts. I think there's a lot of stuff that's happening in all that I'll preach and it's not from the Bible, but it's a cultural observation. But so I do think that that that there's lots of young men wanting something substantial. Now, whether that comes in the form of liturgy and like slow it down and it could be maybe not, Like I just think that really I think we got to like cut through all the melees to say, hey, like, what does God's word like really have to say on that give it to me straight? What's how do I how do I follow after him? Help me how to do hard things in this culture? I think that's a that's baseline, and I would I'm with you in the sense that like, uh, once again, we could look at all this stuff, you know, worship tame, we could we it's all in the way that we describe it. So billowing smoke, flashy lights. I've seen that done really poorly and tacky. I'm seeing it done quite well, you know.

50:10 And I think we talked about this a little bit. I don't want to overstate this because once again, we don't need to get lost in the weeds. But oftentimes a critique is what you're just trying to be like the culture in order to you know, engage more people. I would say, we back all the way all that up. There's a lot of people that would say, I'm in the hymns are just like where it's at. Well, the hymns didn't come out of the New Testament. The hen comes out of a cultural moment. Actually, I don't know you can fact check me on this, but like I believe the tune Amazing Grace was set to a bar tune. It came out of a saloon. Pianos were not allowed in churches because that was a saloon instrument, and so whoever wrote Amazing Grace set it to the tune of a popular saloon tune and they brought it into the church, very controversial at the time. Now a lot of people will go, oh, man, just give me some amazing grace, but via piano, and that came out of a cultural moment that wasn't in the Book of Acts. So I think we just got to contextualize a lot of that.

51:05 The other thing I would say, is it, man, if you read Revelation for that sounds a lot like kind I'm a modern day worship service. Okay, So all right, So he's not even gonna deal. He's not even going to go with the sacraments. He's just going to avoid that. And you see he's kind of pushing back a little bit about the worship tainment because again, if you go to their website, if you go to the website of the church I'm looking at it. If you go to TPCC dot org, tp CC dot oorg, the first thing you see when it opens up, it's Trader's Point Christian Church, one church, multiple locations, and what do you see, Big lights, a praise band, big led screens, a whole it looks like a set design, a whole stage.

51:53 It's worship tainment. So clearly he's going to push back. Clearly he's going to push back, so I just find it hilarious. There does The interviewer had never been to the church's website. I don't know, but let me just go ahead and take care of this. Amazing Grace was not taken from a bar tune. That seems to be a common myth that gets confused with other hymn histories. The lyrics were written in seventeen seventy two by John Newton, a former slave trader who converted to Christianity. The words were meant to accompany his New Year's Day sermon in seventeen seventy three, and was originally published in his seventeen seventy nine Him collection. In his seventeen seventy nine Hymn collection, the melody, the now famous tune associated with Amazing Grace is called New Britain. It was first paired with Newton's lyrics in eighteen thirty five, more than sixty years after he wrote them, and William Walker's Southern harmony Sheiks a shape note tune book. Originally, the tune is a folk melody of unknown origin, possibly Scottish Irish, but it wasn't a bar tune, there's no evidence that came from a drinking song or pub melody. The myth that many hymns like Amazing Grace were set to bar tunes comes from a misunderstanding of Martin Luther's practice of using popular melodies for hymns, though though often that is often overstated and misrepresented.

53:19 If you've heard this story in a sermon or book, it's likely a version of the broader myth that early Christians have baptized secular music to use in worship. But Amazing Grace does not fit that narrative. So we have a pastor giving fraudilent information. Tell me it's not so, because that never happens. Pastors never did. He says, you can fact check me, Well, I just fact checked you. I just fact checked you in fact in twenty twenty five. If I'm doing an interview and the person says I can fact check you, I would have been like, give me one second. That's not true, all right, So it's not true. It's just not true. For crying out loud, it's not true. But because he's trying to use it to kind of justify his worship tamement. But he's not coming out and say, well, wait a minute, now, are you familiar with my church? We believe in worship tament.

54:18 But in a round a way, he's offering a defense without coming out saying, dude, do you know who you're interviewing? Because I mean, look at the church's website. It looks like a concert. The lights are dark, all the lights on the stage are bright. If that's not worship tayment, I don't know what it is. The throne room of heaven. And there was like all of these colors. There was this smoke or haze. There were the you know, laying down their crowns, singing, Holy, Holy Holy. It doesn't necessarily seem so much like a like a liturgical kind of moment, not one. He's trying to use Versus from Revelation to defend smoke machines in worship. But he he's not like other megachurch pastors.

55:17 He give me, give me a break. Okay, all right, I've heard everything. We're gonna use the Book of Revelation. Did I say revelations? I apologize the Book of Revelation to justify, justify smoke machines. That's the most ridiculous. Hey, how about we give us that text and we go, I don't know, try to expound it. Okay, I'm sure that's what the Book of Revelation was trying bright lights, smoke machines. It comes from the worship and the Book of Revelation. Okay, come on, you know nobody else is laughing. I'm gonna overread that. I will say this. If we're talking about like.

55:58 John No, I agree, he's I don't want to overread this. But you just did. One's glimpse in into the throne room? Could it quite possibly be? Because everybody in culture, regardless if they've acknowledged God or not, has been made in the image of God. So that that actually what's happening at rock concerts is they're trying to unknowingly mimicking what's going on in Revelation for and so I would. Wait, So, so what happens in rock concerts is they unknowingly are basically mimicking or doing what's in Revelation Chapter four, Ladies and Jail, this is what that's the kind of You should go to this church because this pastor he ok man alive, so he's head. I'm telling you. The interviewer obviously has never been to the website. The website is it's full blown worship tainment. Now I'm going to have to go find video. If they're actually worship services, you can go look for them TPCC dot org TPCC dot org. And again, remember, my whole issue is the pastors say all the right words. He said all the right words at the beginning. It's about glorifying God. We don't want to just feed people chicken nuggets. We want to expound scripture. Well, I want to read it, I want to explain it, I want to all the words sounded so good. And the next thing, you know, we get fraudulent information about amazing grace and we now have

57:32 Revelation four used to justify smoke machines and bright lights and a stage when you're supposedly trying to have church. Oh man, I'd say that it's not always because we're trying to mimic the culture. We're trying to get vertical the glorification of God in this moment. I'm not against I'm not against liturgy. The catechisms I think are great. Obviously, that's that's a tool of discipleship to try to help people. So yes, I think right now, in a lot of the conversations. Catechisms are great. I wonder which catechisms your church uses.

58:16 So far, looking at your website, I haven't found them. Maybe they do. Maybe you have a class on when we say catechisms, Which catechism Westminster Shorter, Larger Luther, Luther's Catechism. Which catechism are you referring to Puritan catechism? Which one? I'm just curious which one do you promote? Which one do you if it's a discipleship, you're not a Are you just saying you're not against them? They're great in theory, but you don't use it. See he's trying to say. He keeps saying all the right words, but you can see the pushback there. I got to defend the model we use, because well, they're the model they use. That's the thing. The model is not matching these wordsation.

58:59 Is is that we want to not entertain anybody. We do want to engage those who may have some church baggage, some church hurt, some resistance to some things done well to try to engage them vertically with the presence and power of God, not water anything down, and then at the same time bring in and we will sing a hymn, we will take communion together. We have baptisms as a part of our celebration quite frequently. And so I think that there's a way for you. And I talked about this a little bit, is that you know, in every cultural era of the expression of the Bride of Christ the Church, it's got to always be We've got to always be examining it. Hey, have we lost our way?

59:46 Have gone? Have we veered in any way? God? Is this still glorifying you as is still doing what you called it to do? And if not, reform and redeem it, not burn it to the ground, not forsake it, not deconstruct, not walk away. But how do we reform and kind of continue to bring this back? And I think that that's happening in all the pastor's circles. Obviously not with everybody, but the vast majority pastors that I know are going, Man, how do we make sure that we continue to stay focused upon God and what it is that He's called us to do in this cultural moment to reach people that are really far from God, Introduce them to Jesus, grow them up in Jesus, send them out. Now, there you have it. There's the interview. Now, first, did you notice he did not even bother to correct a sacramental language. He didn't even bother to correct it.

1:00:31 He didn't even bother to go, whoa, when you say sacrament, what do you mean by sacrament? What is your definition of a sacrament? Now? Look, I've had people I've known who talk about their church doing sacraments, and I'm like, your church is not sacramental. Why are you using a theological term like sacrament that's a visible means of grace? What are you talking about? Okay, So, once again it just shows theological illiteracy in the American church. He is a pastor if his church is not going to feed people chicken nuggets and he's gonna glorify God and all the things. That sounded so good. You could start by I don't know whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. We've got a we've got a disagreement here, because what do you mean by sacraments? But but you did you see he pushed back strong on, Hey don't know, let's not talk about worship tainment because and because I don't know who that that person was interviewing. They clearly have never been to the church. Website again. I want you to go here TPCC dot o r G TPCC dot o RG. Now we're gonna dig into a little bit more about this church.

1:01:35 That the review went much longer than I wanted it to. Okay, I should have known that the review went much longer because we're we're almost at an hour already. What I'm going to do is just give you a little preview of the sermon. So I'm gonna go over here, I'm gonna I'm gonna get the sermon. All right, I'm gonna upload the sermon. Here we go. Now, the sermon was preached this year. I went to the beginning of the year, and uh, well, look, we're gonna hear the beginning of it, and you just tell me what you think. Remember, he's all about not Ted talks, not motivational speeches, but expository preaching. He doesn't want to give people chicken nuggets. He doesn't want to just be. He wants to give them the Word of God. I mean, it all sounded so good.

1:02:21 Well how does the sermon begin? Let's find out? Well, good to be with everybody today as we get ready to weather the great Snowstorm of twenty twenty five. Hey, it wouldn't be January in Indiana with that one, So I don't know. It kind of feels like par for the course. But I'm glad you guys are here. I want to welcome everybody across all of our locations in online. Today's message is just gonna be an extremely extremely practical message to kick off the brand new year. And at the end of today's message, we're gonna take communion together across all of our locations. So just right now, I just want to encourage you to, if you don't have that already, grab a communion cup to be to participate with us here in just a few moments.

1:03:03 But okay, so the church is in Indiana. If you didn't catch on Indianapolis, Indiana, they're gonna all take communion multiple campuses, all right, So multiple campus I mean, just just the minute. When you hear the sound the sound of the music there fading out, him him coming in, I mean, this is Mega Church one oh one. It's like there's nothing here that's unique at all. There's nothing here unique. Everything here sounds like Mega Church one oh one. Now, the interview made it sound like some that he's different than all the megachurch pastors there that his church is different. You look at the website, it looks like every other megachurch website. There's nothing different about this. But it sounded so good. And that's that's the point. I'm gonna really try to drive home. So here's what we're gonna do.

1:03:48 I'm just gonna listen to a little bit of this, all right, and and oh we're gonna have to do a second episode where we dig into the sermon. But that's okay, that's okay, because but I want you to just go to you can go to TPCC dot org. Look around, look around, and just tell me. You're gonna see all the same small groups, gonna have small groups. I know how much their budget is. I know how much the budget is for this church. If you're if you're curious the budget for this church? Are you ready? Are you ready for the budget? The budget for this church is. I've got the exact numbers to see here. The budget is thirty million, two hundred and fifty two thousand, two hundred and fifteen dollars, thirty million dollars. Ladies and gentlemen, all right, well there they're I'm sorry, don't make me get the numbers correct. The expense. The expenses to keep the church operating each year is twenty five million, three hundred and eight thousand, three hundred and ninety four. They brought in thirty million dollars, so I have a surplus of four million, nine hundred and forty three dollars eight hundred and twenty one. They have a surplus a four million dollars twenty five million dollars for this church operate twenty five million dollars. For twenty five million dollars, I better get the greatest sermon that I have ever heard in the history of humankind for twenty five million dollars.

1:05:26 Here we go. It's hard to believe that it's twenty twenty five. Can anybody else believe that we are officially a quarter of a way through this century? That's one way to think about it, which makes me feel really old. And I don't know how you're feeling about a new year. I don't know if you're kind of like the bandwagon like New Year's resolutions, goal setting, like you're super super excited about it, or if maybe you're a little bit cynical and you've got some doubts and you're just totally like not a New Year's resolution person. I can kind of understand that as well. But what I want to invite you into is to do a little bit of e valuation as to what we just came out of the last twelve months and then what we're kind of entering into. I typically do that between Christmas and New Year's those five to seven days, I'll just spend a little bit of time reflecting upon the previous year and then getting my heart ready for the year to come.

1:06:23 Just no, we haven't even gotten to the text yet. And it's all. About whom us. It's all about us. It's always about us. Everything the church does it's about us. Even though we say it's about God, it's really all about us. We open up the Word of God not to see God and hear what God has to say to the people he was origination. It's going to be about us, right do you think? Well, let's see, is the sermon going to be about us? What do you think? What do you think? Because remember he's all about expository preaching, teaching the text right, not ted, not watering it down, not just motivational speaking.

1:07:05 And as I was doing that, this last week. One of the things that I just really began think through was overall, like twenty twenty four, I would just put that as like a really really good year, like for me personally, but not without some adversity. And one of the things that I just was reflecting upon is that there were. Some high highs and there were some low lows, maybe for you too. And here's the thing that the two had in common is that I didn't see the highs coming and I didn't necessarily anticipate. The lows or didn't see them coming. In fact, there were many things that happened, and I'm just like, man, those are such blessings. I don't know that I deserve it. And then there are some bad things, some really discouraging things that happened that I didn't see coming as well.

1:07:50 Now here's what it initially did to me. And I'm just being confessional with you, and I'm trusting that some of you will be able to relate to me. Because of that, I found myself kind of gingerly inching into this year like, well, you know, if that was true in the past twelve months, and actually that was true in twenty twenty three and twenty twenty two and twenty twenty one, they're probably in twenty twenty five. There's going to be some unexpected blessing, some high highs, and some unexpected challenges, some low lows. And so I found myself. Kind of like posturing, like almost like red like trying to like figure out how can I enter into the year to try to maximize the good and minimize the bad so I can net an overall good year at the end of the year. And really what that spelling is control, if I'm being honest, and a lack of trust in the sovereignty of God, because there isn't anything that really like, there's so many circumstances that are outside of our control, both the good and the bad. And really what I want to do is I don't want to try to live my life in the absence of adversity.

1:08:56 I want to try to live my life so that I can face adversity you well, And so I want to be like surefooted and recognized that good or bad, whatever may come, I'm going to trust, like the sovereignty of God in that. And it's an unfortunate truth, but. It is true that when I look back at my life, the times when I've grown the most spiritually and emotionally and even in other ways, like physically, has been through adversity, not around it. And so actually adversity, when you're surefooted, can become a blessing. And so what I want to encourage you with is just simply these truths right here, is that God wants you to meditate. Satan wants you to ruminate. So God wants you to meditate on what it is that you've been through and kind of where things are headed, and Satan wants you to ruminate. Well, what's the difference between the two. Well, one keeps you spinning on circumstances you can't change, and the other one gets you reminded of the truths of God's word and an unchanging God.

1:09:53 One turns the attention upon you, the other turns the attention upon the only one ultimately powerful and sovereign enough to bring about real change. So, at the beginning of a brand new year, let these words of Saint Augustine encourage you. I love how he writes this. He says, trust the past to God's mercy, because you can't do anything to change it now it's in the past. Trust the present to God's love that the present moment that you are in, be fully present in that moment and recognize the gift that it is, that it's God's mercy and love and grace upon you, and then trust. The future to God's providence. And when it comes to the primary things that matter the most in your life and in my life, I would just kind of narrow it down to these four buckets.

1:10:38 If you're taking notes, you can jot these things down. Your spiritual growth, like your walk with God. That should be the most important thing. Number two, your relationships, everything that would fit into that category, dating, marriage, kids, family. Co workers, your community. Number three your physical and emotional health. Those are important things because we are holistic beings. And the number four your financial health because as scripture says that wherever your treasure is, your heart will follow. Those four things when it comes to spiritual growth, relationships, physical and emotional health, and your finances. Now, I think that. For many of us, if we're being honest in those four categories, we would say that too many times our strategy.

1:11:24 Okay, now one second here, I'm going to go back to the quote from a Augustine. What would he say here? Okay, we're going to have to wrap this up. We're going to go back here the quote from Augustine. Now this again, I mean, I remember he's expository preaching. He doesn't want it just to be a ted talk or sound like a life coach and you draw your own conclusions. All right, let's go from the quote from Augustine. I don't think he gives a source for it. The times when I've grown the most spiritually and emotionally and even in other ways, like physically, has been through adversity, not around it. And actually adversity when you're surefooted, can become a blessing. And so what I want to encourage you with is just.

1:12:06 Simply these truths right here, is that God wants you to meditate. Satan wants you to ruminate. So God wants you to meditate on what it is that you've been through and kind of where things are headed, and Satan wants you to ruminate. Well, what's the difference between the two. Well, one keeps you spinning on circumstances you can't change, and the other one gets you reminded of the truths of God's word and an unchanging God. One turns the attention upon you. The other turns the attention upon the only one ultimately powerful and sovereign enough to bring about real change. So at the beginning of a brand new year, let these words of Saint Augustine encourage you. I love how he writes this. He says, trust the past to God's mercy, because you can't do anything to change it now.

1:12:50 It's in the past. Trust the present to God's love. That the present moment that you are in, be fully present in that moment and recognize the gift that it is, that it's God's mercy and love and grace upon you. And then trust the future to God's providence. And when it comes to the primary things that matter the most in your life and in my life, I would just kind of narrow it down to these four buckets. If you're taking notes, you can drop. These, okay. So it appears that in this January fifth, twenty twenty five sermon the pastor attribute a quote to Augustine. Trust the past to the mercy of God, the present to his love, and the future to his providence. There is no known source in Augustine's works that contains the exact quote. It's often cited online and devotionals are from Christian speakers as a quote from Augustine, but it does not appear in any verified Latin or English translation of the Confession City of God on Grace and free Will, letters homilies. It's possibly the quote as a modern summary or paraphrase inspired by general themes in Augustine's writings, but the wording itself doesn't appear to be found. Augustine did write deeply about time, memory, and God's sovereignty and confessions.

1:14:05 He absolutely spoke of God's mercy, love, and providence, but not in the tidy three part slogan format that the quote presents. The quote is often used to bring comfort and clarity, and while it while it may not be heretical, it presents a cleaned up version of Augustine's complex theology that lacks nuance. It also unintentionally suggests a therapeutic framing of God mercy for your regret, love for you now, providence for your plans. This is most likely a modern devotional sentiment than patristic theology. That's so we have he was wrong about amazing grace. He seems to be wrong about this quote from Augustine. I said, he seems we have to do more research. But all right, this comes across.

1:14:51 This is coming across like a motivational ted talk. That's what is coming across as at some point that we're going to get to Isaiah fifty in all of this. So what happened all those things that was said in the interview falling completely and utterly apart. There's a disconnect between what churches claim, what churches say, and what they actually do and what they actually preach. That's the point I want you to get. That's what I want you to see. Now we can't go any further, and I apologize. We had a number of things go wrong in this episode. You guys don't even realize it. My entire studio software completely crash. I didn't mention that, meaning the entire recording is gone. It's just gone. I'm hoping that the because we're also broadcasting on Church one and Sermon Audio platform, that I'll be able to take it from the Hopefully the once I'm done, will it saves a copy of it, so I'll be able to go and edit out the pre show and edit out that and hopefully be able to upload it from there, then download it from there, and then upload it to all the other podcasting apps.

1:15:53 So yeah, the whole thing crash. I almost panicked, almost started crying, but yeah, it completely crashed. The interview want much longer than I wanted it to go. So the goal was to look at the interview, to give the introduction, give the interview, then go explore the website to look at some does a website contradict what was said in the interview? I think I start it does there's a lot of issues there. Then go to the sermon and then wrap it up. So next well, we'll summarize the interview, We'll explore the website, then we'll take apart the sermon, and then we'll try to get into the actual lessons I want to be taught here. But this is all about when words and methods don't match. This is about someone who's in an interview about the church starving its own people. And I think the church that it was talking about was the one of the pastor who's being interviewed.

1:16:47 So and again, this is just I'm just this is this is not about this particular church. This is just the church. Only reason why I'm using this church is because the interview led me to the church. I didn't even know this church even existed on til the interview. The interview led me there, and I'm like, oh, this sounds like a good church because he said all that, and then as soon as I looked at the church website, I'm like, this is the typical mega church. He's supposedly not the typical megachurch pastor. He but immediately in the in the interview, you get you get the whole story about amazing grace. Wrong looked. And then already he gives a quote from Augustin. As soon as I heard the quote, I'm like, that doesn't sound like Augustin at all. Yeah, but we're not gonna feed people chicken nuggets. No, no, no, no, no, we're gonna give them meat. We're gonna I guess you're gonna give him fraudulent historical information. So we're already not doing so well and it already sounding like a Ted talk.

1:17:45 Oh and and uh, it's all about me. But somehow Isaiah fifty's gonna come into play. Yeah, well, we're gonna definitely see how that goes. All right until next time, just well, go look at the website. The church website, not mine, not for me, to by no means not for me. It's TPCC dot org TPCC dot org. Hey, you may want to give them a little bit of money. You may want to donate while you're there, because you know, it takes twenty five million dollars to operate their church. They only brought in thirty million, so they got about a four million dollar. You know, they're they're doing pretty good. They got a four million dollars in reserve. Go ahead and give them a little bit more because they probably need a little bit more, because you know, that's the thing that gets brings in twenty five million dollars. We will bring in twenty five million dollars. Are you know pastors who give completely fraudulent historical information a misattributed quote to Augustine and it's what's starting to sound like a life coach and a ted talk. But hey, hey, that brings in twenty five million dollars. So go give them some more money. They probably need it. I mean it, go give them, go give them a million dollars and then you can get some more good teaching from them.

1:18:59 Ye Am, I a little sarcastic. I do get a little sarcastic, But I'm just frustrated that the interview either really thought whoa, this sounds good up till part of the interview started falling apart. But there you go. Thanks for listening, God bless