April 5, 2025

When the Words Don’t Match the Method Pt 1

When the Words Don’t Match the Method Pt 1

A case study in how the words many churches say contradict the actual methods they are using.

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A case study in how the words many churches say contradict the actual methods they are using.

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Looking at our world from a theological perspective.

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This is the Theology Central podcast, making Theology Central.

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Good afternoon, everyone. It is Saturday, April fifth, twenty twenty five.

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It is currently one fifteen pm Central Time, and I'm

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coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located

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right here in Albilene, Texas. Now, before I really start

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introducing what we're going to be discussing, and I think

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this is going to probably turn into maybe two or

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three episodes, there's no way I can get through everything

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in one. Maybe we'll break this down. I never I

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didn't really have an intention. I mean, my intention was

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not really, oh, let's do a small mini series about this.

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It's just one of those things. I kind of stumbled

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upon it and here we are. But I can't really

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start talking about it unless I just really confess and

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just be very open and honest with everyone. When it

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comes to how churches should operate, how they should function,

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how the right way churches should work. I'm the last

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person to be able to say anything, at least from

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a human perspective, because from a human perspective, look, my ideas,

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my thoughts, my ways are as a complete failure nobody

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wants the way I think church should operate. Right. People

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may hear me on a podcast and go ooh, I

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wish churches would do things that way. No, I don't

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even believe when most people say that that they really

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even believe it. Because as soon as your church implemented

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and did things the way I think churches need to

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do things, you would leave the church. You would get irritated,

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you would get mad because it did not feel like church,

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and it did not look like church. Because I think

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basically the way most churches do things, I think that

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entire methodology, that fhilosophy, that ideology, I think, I think

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it all just needs to be burnt to the ground.

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I'm not talking about burning literal churches to the ground.

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The ideas, the philosophies about how churches should work. It's

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almost like there's a template out there and everyone follows it.

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Everyone you know, marches to the beat of that drum.

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And I have always been opposed to it from the

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very beginning, From the very first Sunday that I became

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the pastor of Victory Baptist Church in the middle of nowhere, Texas,

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I basically said, look, if we're gonna have a church here,

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we're gonna do things so radically different, or there's no

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point that we even exist. What's the point of existing

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when in this part of Texas, if you take about

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a fifty mile radius, there's probably three hundred churches. If

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you just take the city of Albilene, Texas, I mean

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there are so there are hundreds of churches. The joke

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is there's a church on every corner, and that's not

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really that's not even really being hyperbolic. So my thing

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is always like, if we're going to ex this, then

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we have to be radically different than all the other churches.

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Because if we're going to be so similar to the

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other churches, then what's the point Just go to one

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of them, right, said, Well, I don't like that church,

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and I don't like that church, and I don't like

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that church. So you're just starting another church because you

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don't like that church. But you basically want a church

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like the church that you supposedly don't like. I don't

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understand that. I don't understand why there's you know, two

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hundred churches in a town and you can barely tell

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them apart is that, well we believe this, and they

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believe that only give me a break. You don't even

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really focus on doctrine in the first place. Who cares

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what anybody believes? You all just want to go for

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your own little well whatever church is supposed to be.

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But I'm gonna admit it though. I mean, you can

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hear my frustration and my irritation because look, even though

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I failed, because look I started Victory when Victory Baptists,

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I didn't start it. When Victory Baptist Church started and

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brought me in, I was immediately like, we're gonna do

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this completely different. And there was like, yeah, we're gonna

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do it different. Yeah. And then within six months, I

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think we already lost like fifty percent of the people, okay,

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and then we built way up. Oh, things were going good,

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and then boom, everyone started leaving and started leaving and

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started leaving and started leaving and started leaving and started

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leaving and started leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving

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and leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving and leaving

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and leaving a living until now we're basically we're finished.

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We're done, and all practical purposes, my strategy, my idea was,

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we're not going to do church like anybody else did

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not work. I was opposed to all of the church

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growth methods. I rejected it all. I was like, we're

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gonna be a place, and only thing I have to

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offer anybody here is the in depth teaching of God's Word, theology,

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and church history. We're not gonna have fun food, games, activities.

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You're going to show up here to be fed the

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Word of God the end. That's it. We're gonna wear

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and we're gonna go in depth. We're not just gonna

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learn theology. We're gonna do theology. We're not just gonna

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learn Hermanudic, We're gonna do Hermoneutics. We're gonna dig in

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and we're gonna challenge. We're gonna question and again. I

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get excited talking that way, but the reality is it's

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a failure. So for me to offer any what appears

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to be criticism, it's really foolish because anybody can say

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you're a failure, You're an idiot. Those churches are successful,

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and you're right. All the other church ideas, philosophies and

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models are successful. They are from a human perspective. I'm

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an absolute failure, failure. I mean, I can't even stress

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it enough. I'm an idiot, I'm a moron. Nobody wants

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to do things the way I think they should be done.

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But that's okay. I would rather be a failure, but

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being honest with the way I think things should have gone,

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than simply caving in and adopting and just turning church

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and what everybody wants, which would be just like all

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the other churches. And at that point, I don't even

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know why we would exist, why we're gonna exist when

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we're basically like the church two blocks away or across town.

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That's just it makes no sense to me. But that's

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that's the way people want. And I already get frustrated

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with it. I remember when Paul Washer put out his

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famous sermon about the what ten indictments against the modern Church.

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I got so tired people saying how great this sermon

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is so amazing, this sermon is so wonderful, and I'd

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be like, what church do you go to? And you

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look at the church website and you'd be like, this

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sermon is condemning the very church you go to. The

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You like the way it sounds, you like the idea

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that it condemns that church model or that church model.

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But your church falls right in the midst of all

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of that. Your church may not say your seeker sensitive,

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you may not say you're into all of this stuff,

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but you got enough things that are still built somewhat

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similar to that. Your church is a community center more

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than it's anything else. But oh, you know when you

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say that, people get mad. No, it's the kind of

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church I want. No, you don't. You're happy with what

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you have other than when you get mad about the

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color of the carpet or Susan says something about you

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that you don't like, or the pastor irritates you, then

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you'll just go find another church, basically just like the

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church you left. That's what all you people want. Just

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I'm so tired of hearing, oh, we want what is

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wrong with American Christianity, biblical illiteracy, theological illiteracy, and then

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when a church actually tries to correct that, people don't

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want it. So I'm jaded and I'm cynical. I'm just

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gonna be honest. But the main thing I want you

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to take away from that is I'm acknowledging to you

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I am a failure. My ideas do not work. My

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ideas are trash. I got no problem admitting that, because

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again I would rather go down swinging. And I'm looking

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I mean my church, I mean it's over, it's done.

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I mean we had a good run, twenty two, twenty

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three years, twenty four years, whatever it was, and it's

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going down like the Titanic. Okay, that's that's fine, that's okay.

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I'm willing to accept the defeat. I'm willing to accept defeat.

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And and you know, everyone can go find a church

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like all the other churches and everyone can be happy,

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and that's fine. So I just need to get that

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out of the way because what I'm going to do

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today I want I want to make sure this is

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very clear. What I'm doing today is not like a

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hit piece. It's not an expose. I want to do

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kind of a case study. I want to have a discussion.

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I want to try to look at this idea of

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how a church, because we're going to look at one

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specific church, how a church and more and I think

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to be fair church is but we're gonna use one

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as a case study, maybe even more specifically, how a

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pastor of a church, or how pastors of churches can

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seem to say all the right things about God. They

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can seem to say all the right things about preaching,

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they can seem to say all the right things about

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the authority of Scripture, and yet they still build and

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operate a church using a model that contradicts everything they say.

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And that's where I get so frustrated by so many

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Christians and so many churches. They sound it sounds so good.

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We care about preaching, we care about teaching, we care

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about doctrine, we care about this, we care about that,

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And then you look at the church and go, really,

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that's what caring about those things looks like. That's what

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it looks like. You care more about community in this

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and that and feel good and at the amount of

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preaching you're putting out, I don't think you care that much.

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Now.

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See that sounds like I'm criticizing, but I just want

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you to try to see that. I believe there is

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a contradiction and and and and it always frustrates me

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because sometimes things will sound so good and yet it

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turns out not to be that good. I'm going to

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try to explore how words and methods can quietly drift apart.

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You got the right words, but the actual methods don't

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match the words. I want you to see how when

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everything may sound biblical, everything may sound faithful, everything may

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sound philologically grounded, but the reality and practice and method

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is it's not those things. The words sound biblical, the

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words sound faithful, the words sound philologically grounded. They sound

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that way, but in practice you're kind of like, what

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nobody am I the only one seeing the disconnect? But no, no, no,

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as long as you give everyone, if you tell everyone

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the right words and you give them a little sense

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of Bible and Jesus, then they're like, oh, this is wonderful.

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But then when you really look at what you're doing,

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you're like, it's just it's just the community center. Stop it,

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to stop your talk. But okay, But I like the

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churches that are more like, look, we don't care about

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being a seminary or or. We don't care about theology

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and doctrine. We don't care about in depth teaching of scripture,

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we don't care about any of that. This is what

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we care about. Now. Those churches I applaud because they're

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bold and they're honest, and they're like, we're not. We

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don't care about doing church the old way. What ticks

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me off is all the people who will criticize those

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churches who are honest, and then you look at their

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church and you're like, and yours is so much better. Okay,

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you just sound better. You just have the appearance, you

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have the appearance of godliness. But when you get down

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to it, it's just this same joke. You're just not

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so outward about it. Because I believe it's not uncommon

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to hear pastors say affirm things like preaching should glorify God. Now,

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just make sure you understand that it's really a meaningless statement.

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Every church believes their preaching glorifies God. You don't have

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a church going, Hey, today, we're gonna do sermons and

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we're not going to glorify God. Every church believes that

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they glorify God and the way they do church. Every

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church believes that our worship glorifies God. One church will

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say no, no, no, your worship doesn't glorify God. Your worship

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doesn't glorify God. Everyone else may accuse the other not

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glorifying God. But every church believes that their worship glorifies God.

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They believe their preaching glorifies God. They believe that their

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small groups glorify God. They all believe that it's it's

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useless to say, what's your church committed to glorifying God?

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And that's it. It's irrelevant because everyone believes that they're

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glorifying God. There's no church out there going, hey, this Sunday,

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we're not gonna glorify God. It's it's just it's a slogan.

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It's a bumper sticker, that's what it is. But pastors

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will affirm that. The pastors will hold up their Bible

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and say, the Bible is the foundation, the Bible is

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the word of God, the Bible is the authority. And

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then you'll go then you'll look at what their churches

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are doing, like, wait a minute, that sounds like you

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hold to the regulative principle. So your church will do

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absolutely nothing unless it is clearly commanded in scripture or

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you have clear examples of this being the right thing

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to do. But you'll look at their churches like pollux

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and this and that and this activity. The Bible doesn't

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say anything. I thought you said the Bible was the

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final authority. So you don't go with the regulative principle.

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You go with the normative principle that you can do

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anything unless it's specifically condemned. Well, no, we don't do that.

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And it's it's the churches do whatever is right in

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their own eyes and don't tell me otherwise because that's

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what they do. That don't even hold to a true

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most cases regulative principle, and I don't even say consistent

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with a normative print principle. But they will still say

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the Bible is our foundation. They will say things like

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we're here to we're here to build up believers, not

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entertain consumers. Oh that sounds good, doesn't it. We're here

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to build up believers, not entertain consumers. That sounds good.

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I mean, get that on a T shirt, get it printed,

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get it on the church website. But let's let's have

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some coffee mugs that we can give everyone. Right, We're

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here to build up believers, not entertain consumers. And everybody

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will go to church. I go to a church that

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builds up believers, but that does not entertain consumers. And

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you look at the church going, I think you are

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the I don't think you see what's happening. We believe

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in expository preaching. Read the text, explain the text, apply

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the text. Oh, your pastors and then you go listen

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to their sermon, You're like, really that that's what that's

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what you call that? Okay, okay, now all right, you

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go run along. It's fun. It's like it's like watching

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a little kids playing dress up, right, okay? And I'm like, okay, ah,

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that's so cute. Yeah, think you you call that expository preciation.

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Oh you're really digging into that text? Didn't you write you?

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And I know I sound sarcastic, but a lot of

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times when I hear that and I go listen to

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the sermons, I'm like, what a joke, because I could

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take the same text and go you didn't even bother

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with this or this or this or this or this

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or this this or this or this or this or this,

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And it's like, well that okay, okay, you tell yourself that. See,

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all of those things are the right thing to say.

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They sound like convictions, They sound like they're trying to

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offer clarity. But what happens when the actual structure of

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the church, the actual Sunday experience, the actual content of

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the preaching, and maybe even the messaging on the website

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seem to tell a completely different story. What happens when

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the form undercuts the function. That's what I want to

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try to examine today. I'm not here to criticize a person.

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I'm not here to criticize personalities. I'm trying to investigate

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a larger problem that touches thousands of churches and millions

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of Christians. That you say the right thing, but in function,

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in reality, you're not doing anything that you're claiming to do.

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And how do I know that? Study after study after

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study after study says Christians are biblically and philologically illiterate,

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while going to churches that claim the Bible is the authority,

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We teach the Bible, we equip believers, we don't entertain consumers,

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and they say all the right things, but yet biblically,

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logically illiterate. Oh but they sound it sounds so good.

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Can a church say it's committed to biblical preaching while

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using the stage like a platform, the Bible like a slogan,

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and the sermon like a motivational boost. What happens when

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the method contradicts the message? That's the question I'm going

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to try to trace. That's that's the that's the the

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idea I'm going to try to explore. Now, here's what

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we're going to do. We're gonna start off with an

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interview with a pastor of a very very, very large

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influential church. Because it sounds good. In fact, you could

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say it even made me go, wow, this this could

301
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be interesting. It sounded grounded, it sounded aware of the

302
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problems plaguing modern evangelicalism. It sounded good. I was like this,

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this looks good because I mean, the name of the

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video is the church is starving its people. The church

305
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is starving its people. And I was like, whoa this

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that that caught my attention. But then after we and

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you're going to hear the interview, after we we interview,

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or after we interview, after we listen and review the interview,

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then we're gonna look at the church behind those words.

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We're gonna look at the actual church. We're gonna say,

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here's the interview from the pastor of this big influential church,

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right multiple locations. I think it's like ten thousand people

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attend on a weekly basis. Well, we're gonna then look

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at the church itself. We're gonna look at the actual

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church's website, and then we're gonna listen to a sermon

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and we're gonna see if all of this matches up

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or if there seems to be some apparent contradiction. We're

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gonna we're gonna ask, like, does the method seem to

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match the message? Is the theology that's preached the same

320
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as the theology that's practiced? And how does this church

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present itself to the world. Now, I'm gonna try to

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invite you to wrestle with some of these same questions.

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What do we do when the words are right but

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they seem but they the way these words are delivered

325
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undermines everything they claim to uphold. That's what I'm gonna

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try my best to get you to think this way

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and to struggle with this.

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Now.

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I know again, I know in some ways this is

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an absolute waste of my time because nobody really cares. People.

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People are more than content with the way church is.

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They say they're not, but just give me a break,

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Yes they are, because if people had gotten Look, there's

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one thing we know. The church as it's been operating

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clearly is not doing its job. Because every study says

336
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Christians are biblically and theologically illiterate. That's a fact, right,

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Yet everyone says, oh no, the churches. But churches don't change.

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Everyone keeps following the same tired template. In fact, the

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pastors all sound the same. The churches, the sermons sound

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the same, the websites look alike. It's just like manufactured Churchianity.

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And it's like, give me a break, man, give me

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stop telling oh, we want something to No, you stinking don't. Okay,

343
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as soon as you get something different, you're gonna whine

344
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and complain about it. All right. So it's like, I

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know that this is an exercise in futility, but here

346
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we are. So let's start where this all began for me?

347
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All right? I opened up YouTube. Why did I open YouTube?

348
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Because I always check to see if there's a little

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red number there, a red dot there, to tell me

350
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that someone has left a comment telling me that I'm

351
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an idiot, or that my sermons are trash, or I

352
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need to learn how to do this. Whatever they're going

353
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to tell me. It's usually something negative most not all

354
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the time, but sometimes I shouldn't be too hyperbolic there, right,

355
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there was more negative in the past. I think people

356
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have kind of stopped that now, but I always still

357
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check just to make sure that there's something you know,

358
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just not outrageous there, right. So I looked and I'm like, okay,

359
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I think there was a notification somebody something when we

360
00:21:31.839 --> 00:21:35.359
did the body OIDs thingy. They didn't like something I did.

361
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I can't remember. They were telling me not to do something.

362
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I can't remember what it was. But I'm like, all right, great,

363
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no big deal. It wasn't even anything I was worried

364
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about responding to, all right. And then I saw this

365
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thumbnail and it showed someone like standing in the center

366
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aisle of a church right holding it looks like a

367
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plate of chicken nuggets. And I'm like, this looks interesting.

368
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And it says the church is starving its own pace

369
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something along those lines, and all the people are looking

370
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at the pastor holding this I guess cheese chicken nuggets,

371
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but they all seem to be starving. And I'm like, whoa, Yeah,

372
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the church is starving its own people was the name

373
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of the video. I'm like, whoa, that that sounds that

374
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sounds interesting. I mean, I caught my attention. So what

375
00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:22.680
we're gonna do is we're gonna review this. I want

376
00:22:22.680 --> 00:22:26.440
you to hear and you tell me how if you

377
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were to listen to this would you be like, whoa,

378
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this sounds good. This sounds really really really really good.

379
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And then what we're gonna do is we're going to

380
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take all the positive that I think. I mean, the

381
00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:39.519
video title seems positive. It seems that it's going to

382
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be going in a right direction. I thought it was

383
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going somewhat in a right direction. I even gave the

384
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transcript to artificial intelligence, and it was like even seeming

385
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to think it was going in the right direction. It's

386
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when we started doing further investigating that it was seemed

387
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like this is a wild contradiction. But we'll see if

388
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the contradiction is as bad as I feel that it is.

389
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:02.000
Not feel that it is. There's a lot of things

390
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:05.359
I don't know, right, so just remember that I'm I

391
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love to take you through the journey and we we

392
00:23:08.799 --> 00:23:10.839
wherever we're gonna end up, we're gonna end up. We'll

393
00:23:10.839 --> 00:23:13.039
see together where we're gonna end up. But let's let's

394
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just go to the video and we will see. I

395
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don't know anything about the person who put out the

396
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I don't know anything about it. I just saw it

397
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and like, oh this looks Oh wait what is this?

398
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And so well, then when I started It's just there

399
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:29.119
was something. I don't know what it was. There was something,

400
00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:32.559
maybe the way the pastor is talking, maybe the way

401
00:23:32.599 --> 00:23:36.960
he looks. I don't know. Something just said to me. Wait,

402
00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.799
I think this is like a megachurch pastor. This something's

403
00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:45.039
unless his church is radically different than the way I

404
00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.319
think it is. Something seems off here. So and it's

405
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.440
just it's just my own cynicism, my own skepticism. It's

406
00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:57.559
just like this sounds so good, but but who is he? Like?

407
00:23:57.680 --> 00:24:02.200
What is this church? Well, we're gonna get there soon.

408
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.440
Are you ready? Here we go. Here's the interview.

409
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What is your goal for the Sunday morning service? So,

410
00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:13.039
like for that is it one service and then satellite

411
00:24:13.039 --> 00:24:16.400
it out or do you do multiple services on the morning.

412
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:18.599
Of multiple Okay, yeah, what.

413
00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:20.720
Is your goal for that service?

414
00:24:20.799 --> 00:24:23.240
Like in that hour and fifteen minutes, what do you think,

415
00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:26.799
like all of your staff is going towards this direction

416
00:24:26.880 --> 00:24:27.960
if we accomplish this goal.

417
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The primary goal is that God is pleased, like the

418
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:35.440
glorification of God in that moment, and that I want

419
00:24:35.440 --> 00:24:39.400
to be faithful to give voice to what he wants said,

420
00:24:39.400 --> 00:24:42.079
which is one of my favorite definitions of preaching is

421
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a preaching is giving voice to what God wants said,

422
00:24:44.759 --> 00:24:48.279
what God has already said, and is never changing word

423
00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:49.880
to an ever changing culture.

424
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Doesn't that all sound good? Doesn't that I want to

425
00:24:55.799 --> 00:24:58.039
give voice to what God has said in his word,

426
00:24:58.599 --> 00:25:02.200
the ever changing We're the ever change. No, I'm saying

427
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:05.160
the never changing word to an ever changing culture. Something

428
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:09.359
along those lines. I'm paraphrasing. All sounds really good. Nice slogans.

429
00:25:09.799 --> 00:25:12.160
I mean, he's ready to go, he's got the slogans,

430
00:25:12.200 --> 00:25:15.000
he's got to catchy sayings. I mean, that works right.

431
00:25:15.359 --> 00:25:17.839
But immediately what caught my attention was, wait a minute,

432
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so you care about God's glory? Okay, preaching, but wait

433
00:25:22.079 --> 00:25:28.720
a minute. I could tell multiple campuses, multiple services. I'm like, okay,

434
00:25:28.720 --> 00:25:31.599
so this isn't some small church. There's a big church,

435
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:37.960
multiple locations, multiple services. Okay, all right, now in my

436
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:43.119
mind's thinking, does this sound like a church? I'm already said,

437
00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:44.960
this is where I already started getting a little like.

438
00:25:46.000 --> 00:25:48.519
But but it sounded good. So here we go.

439
00:25:50.759 --> 00:25:53.400
And so that would be the primary. I think the

440
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:56.440
secondary would be the what we might call, you know,

441
00:25:56.480 --> 00:25:59.079
the edification of the saints, the building up of people's faith.

442
00:25:59.799 --> 00:26:02.240
If we were to use the you know, the words

443
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:05.720
of you know, Proverbs the wise in our gathering, which

444
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:08.319
I would say wise in the sense of these are Christians,

445
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:11.960
these are Bible people, like they're growing and we need

446
00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:15.559
to equip them in their faith. That secondarily, and then

447
00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:18.079
the third is just the recognition that there are people

448
00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:20.920
that need to know Jesus, the conviction of sin, the invitation.

449
00:26:21.000 --> 00:26:22.720
There's always going to be some sort of an invitation

450
00:26:23.599 --> 00:26:26.640
to come into a relationship with Christ in that moment.

451
00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:30.200
So the meat of what we do is Bible teaching

452
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:30.680
and preaching.

453
00:26:32.960 --> 00:26:36.599
The meat of what we do is Bible preaching and

454
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:40.160
Bible teaching. The meat of what we do, this is

455
00:26:40.200 --> 00:26:44.759
the primary thing we do. We preach and we teach.

456
00:26:46.160 --> 00:26:50.200
That's the meat. I wonder, what do you think. I

457
00:26:50.200 --> 00:26:56.839
think it's a big steak, a big hamburger. What do

458
00:26:56.880 --> 00:26:59.440
you think it is? What do you think? Is it

459
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:03.359
just like a full, a four course meal? What do

460
00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:06.359
you think? I mean, it's their their main focus is

461
00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:08.880
the preaching and teaching of God's Word. That sounds good.

462
00:27:08.960 --> 00:27:10.720
I mean I hear that, and I'm like, that's the

463
00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:12.480
kind of church I want to go to. Where the

464
00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:16.000
meat is the preaching of God's word. I'm gonna, I'm gonna,

465
00:27:16.000 --> 00:27:19.000
I'm gonna show up with a big plate and ready

466
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:23.240
to dig in. Right, it sounds good, See, I remember

467
00:27:23.279 --> 00:27:26.119
the words. We talked about this when the words sound good,

468
00:27:26.160 --> 00:27:28.480
But what happens in practice, Well, we're gonna find out,

469
00:27:28.480 --> 00:27:32.400
because we're gonna be reviewing a sermon. Oh that just

470
00:27:32.440 --> 00:27:35.960
happens to come from Oh, let me guess somewhere between

471
00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:41.200
Isaiah forty and Isaiah fifty five. Yeah, because well that's

472
00:27:41.319 --> 00:27:43.720
where we always end up lately, isn't it?

473
00:27:43.759 --> 00:27:44.039
Okay?

474
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:47.319
But let's see what else he has to say.

475
00:27:47.640 --> 00:27:50.200
That's what we spend the majority of our time doing gathering.

476
00:27:50.240 --> 00:27:54.880
So what I heard was God believers and then non believers.

477
00:27:55.079 --> 00:27:56.440
It's kind of like the tiers.

478
00:27:57.200 --> 00:27:59.559
And I think, ironically, and this this is a I

479
00:27:59.559 --> 00:28:02.200
think a fair critique of the megachurch is that when

480
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:06.000
you put the the seekers, so to speak, or those

481
00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:10.519
that are outside of Christ first, it's like the it's

482
00:28:10.559 --> 00:28:14.119
like chiropractor trying to establish, you know, fixing the spine,

483
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:18.119
Like if that's your audience first, which I think that

484
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:20.119
for many, the heart and the intent of that is

485
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:23.759
good but then what ends up unintentionally happening is that

486
00:28:23.799 --> 00:28:27.680
you end up sending maybe a message to the Edified

487
00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:30.720
that well, you know, it's kind of like serving a meal.

488
00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:34.680
It's like, hey, we're going to serve chicken nuggets every week,

489
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:36.720
and we got a group over here that's kind of starving,

490
00:28:37.640 --> 00:28:41.039
and then quite possibly God could be dishonored. I think actually,

491
00:28:41.119 --> 00:28:43.799
if you change it to where the primary people that

492
00:28:43.839 --> 00:28:46.920
you're preaching and teaching to are the save the edified

493
00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:50.200
via the Word of God. It's living in active, let

494
00:28:50.200 --> 00:28:52.519
it do its thing, then those who are far from

495
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:55.039
God get invited and get fed and get convicted as well.

496
00:28:55.240 --> 00:28:57.440
You don't have to compromise. I think some people are like,

497
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:01.720
welly just really highly value evangelism. You can do discipleshipping

498
00:29:01.839 --> 00:29:07.599
and people get saved. From my experience, now, when I.

499
00:29:07.519 --> 00:29:09.759
Heard that, I'm like, oh, so he's kind of criticizing

500
00:29:09.799 --> 00:29:15.000
the megachurch. The Mega church just serving chicken nuggets, right,

501
00:29:16.359 --> 00:29:20.119
so he's gonna offer me, he's gonna disciple. All right,

502
00:29:20.359 --> 00:29:25.160
that's okay, that all sounds good. Right, Let's see where

503
00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:25.559
it goes.

504
00:29:27.000 --> 00:29:30.920
Apologetically speaking the Word of God, it will always return.

505
00:29:30.759 --> 00:29:32.920
No doubt, I mean, if nothing else, let me just

506
00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:35.880
get up there and read the Bible. It's like that's like,

507
00:29:36.599 --> 00:29:39.839
you know, that's at least a base hit when you

508
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:41.279
get up and you're like, I'm not really sure how

509
00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:43.400
the sermon's gonna go at the very least, like, just

510
00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:45.440
make sure that the Bible is read. I mean, my like,

511
00:29:45.480 --> 00:29:48.039
even in preaching, I'm actually not very good at outlining.

512
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:50.519
But if I just know, like if I can just

513
00:29:50.599 --> 00:29:53.279
like read the text, explain the text, exply apply the text.

514
00:29:53.319 --> 00:29:55.759
Read the text, explain the text, apply the text, that's

515
00:29:55.759 --> 00:29:56.880
gonna be a decent sermon.

516
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:00.599
And I think that's why people would all right.

517
00:30:01.119 --> 00:30:04.400
All right, did you did you hear that? Read the text?

518
00:30:04.839 --> 00:30:09.480
Explain the text? Read the text, Explain the text. All right,

519
00:30:09.880 --> 00:30:13.680
read the text, Explain the text. That that sounds all

520
00:30:13.720 --> 00:30:17.920
that sounds. It sounds so good. Read, explain apply the

521
00:30:17.960 --> 00:30:21.440
text it sounds. If all I do is that, then

522
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:24.200
it's gonna be a good sermon. That sounds so good.

523
00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:27.240
Now just keep that in mind when we get to

524
00:30:27.319 --> 00:30:30.680
the actual sermon. Does he read it? Does he actually

525
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:36.759
explain it? Do we really understand the text? We will

526
00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:38.759
we will find we will do that here in just

527
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:45.160
a second. Hang God, I gotta having a technical difficulty here.

528
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:52.799
Give me one second. All right, I'm gonna have to

529
00:30:55.480 --> 00:30:56.759
all right, give me a second.

530
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:58.799
I apologize for this. All right.

531
00:30:59.519 --> 00:31:03.680
My Udeo software crashed, so that recording is now gone.

532
00:31:03.799 --> 00:31:07.160
All right, that's that's not good. All right. Now let's

533
00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:10.440
get back here. Okay. Now what we'll do is we'll

534
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:11.240
get back to.

535
00:31:12.799 --> 00:31:15.720
This interview and get it back to about the time

536
00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:17.480
I think it's around here.

537
00:31:17.519 --> 00:31:19.519
Okay, let me see if I've got it. I may

538
00:31:19.559 --> 00:31:21.480
have to do a little work to get it back

539
00:31:21.519 --> 00:31:23.480
to where we need but we'll get right back to

540
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:23.960
the interview.

541
00:31:23.960 --> 00:31:27.519
Here we go active, let it do its thing. Than

542
00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:29.519
those who are far from God get invited and get

543
00:31:29.559 --> 00:31:32.319
fed and get convicted as well. You don't have to compromise.

544
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:34.720
I think some people are like, why just really highly

545
00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:39.359
value evangelism. You can do discipleship and people get saved.

546
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:43.680
From my experience, unapologetically speaking the word of God, it

547
00:31:43.720 --> 00:31:45.200
will always return.

548
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:47.119
No doubt. I mean, if nothing else, let me just

549
00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:50.079
get up there and read the Bible. It's like that's like,

550
00:31:50.839 --> 00:31:53.960
you know, that's that's at least a base hit when

551
00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:55.400
you get up and you're like, I'm not really sure

552
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:57.319
how the sermon is going to go at the very least, like,

553
00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:59.160
just make sure that the Bible is read. I mean,

554
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:01.680
my like, even in preaching, I'm actually not very good

555
00:32:01.680 --> 00:32:04.359
at outlining. But if I just know, like if I

556
00:32:04.359 --> 00:32:06.680
can just like read the text, explain the text, exply

557
00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:09.039
apply the text, read the text, explain the text, apply

558
00:32:09.119 --> 00:32:09.920
the text.

559
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:14.440
Read the text, explain the text, apply the text, read it,

560
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:18.680
explain it, apply it all. Right, now, the reading, I'm

561
00:32:18.720 --> 00:32:21.279
sure he does better than I do in that applying

562
00:32:21.279 --> 00:32:26.279
it probably does well. Now see, I don't know because again,

563
00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:31.240
your application has to go directly to the explanation of

564
00:32:31.319 --> 00:32:35.279
the text. So if the explanation is off, the application

565
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.640
will be off. Now, so this all sounds everything in

566
00:32:38.680 --> 00:32:42.440
this sounds so good. This is where this is where oh,

567
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:47.240
this is where things again my introduction, I'm telling you,

568
00:32:47.279 --> 00:32:49.480
this is where I get frustrated. Is the church can

569
00:32:49.599 --> 00:32:52.200
sound so good, but we're gonna we're gonna work through

570
00:32:52.240 --> 00:32:54.599
this case study so well, it's gonna take us a

571
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:56.000
while to get to the sermon. I don't even know

572
00:32:56.000 --> 00:32:57.759
if we're gonna get to the sermon in this episode,

573
00:32:57.799 --> 00:32:59.319
but we're gonna try our best to get there.

574
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:02.680
That's going to be a decent sermon.

575
00:33:03.160 --> 00:33:05.200
And I think that's why people would kind of separate

576
00:33:05.240 --> 00:33:07.240
you amongst this group, and so you don't have to

577
00:33:07.400 --> 00:33:10.599
kind of out anyone or speak illy of this model.

578
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:15.160
But I think the perception is when you see that

579
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:19.839
many people and you understand that the power of your

580
00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:23.559
words could keep bringing in these masses if you shallow

581
00:33:23.640 --> 00:33:26.279
that down, if you do speak to the non believer,

582
00:33:26.599 --> 00:33:29.559
give them a raw, raw speech, give this cultural Christianity,

583
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:31.680
which I'd love to talk to you more about. Give

584
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:33.720
this kind of cultural Christianity where it's like, hey, it's

585
00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:36.480
totally fine to like kind of live your life outside

586
00:33:36.480 --> 00:33:40.519
of here, but you could just come in and blend

587
00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:42.720
in and no one's going to convict you. No one's

588
00:33:42.799 --> 00:33:45.480
keeping track of what you're doing Monday through Saturday. But

589
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:47.200
this is just a part of your Sunday. And the

590
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:50.279
kind of sermon that they're hearing is not pressing in

591
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:53.400
on that whatsoever. And I could see how this large

592
00:33:53.480 --> 00:33:56.119
church model, if you knew the algorithm of hey, if

593
00:33:56.160 --> 00:33:57.759
you just soften the blow, if you talk to a

594
00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:00.839
specific group of people, there's probably a good chance that

595
00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:04.200
if the marketing is right, the music is good, the

596
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:07.680
speakers is awesome, then you could you could hit some

597
00:34:07.680 --> 00:34:11.440
some very big churches. And so I would say that

598
00:34:11.440 --> 00:34:14.760
that coming from you with twelve thousand people is probably

599
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:17.440
not expected because a lot of people would say that

600
00:34:17.559 --> 00:34:20.480
a lot of these pastors may be narcissistic, maybe just

601
00:34:20.599 --> 00:34:24.519
want the kind of big sanctuary. They have softened a ton.

602
00:34:25.960 --> 00:34:28.280
But for your experience, it's worked the other way. Like

603
00:34:28.320 --> 00:34:30.639
you've still kept to it. I've heard your sermons. I

604
00:34:30.639 --> 00:34:33.920
don't think you really pull back too many punches and so,

605
00:34:34.599 --> 00:34:36.599
and we could talk about one of the more popular

606
00:34:36.599 --> 00:34:37.400
ones that have happened.

607
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:44.840
So twelve thousand people. He's not like the other mega

608
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:47.639
church pastors. He's a mega church pastor, because when you

609
00:34:47.679 --> 00:34:50.320
have twelve thousand people, you're a mega church pastor. But

610
00:34:50.360 --> 00:34:53.400
he's not like the other people. He doesn't pull back.

611
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:56.199
He doesn't give them the chicken nuggets. He brings in

612
00:34:56.239 --> 00:35:00.159
the full blown steak. He gives them the good teaching.

613
00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:02.719
See it sounds so good. And I guess he's got

614
00:35:03.239 --> 00:35:06.480
a famous message that I guess is somewhat controversial. Maybe

615
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:09.119
we'll need to find that message as we continue again

616
00:35:09.159 --> 00:35:12.159
This is just a case study of what pastors and

617
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:17.239
churches say versus what they do. I don't care anything

618
00:35:17.280 --> 00:35:20.280
specifically about this individual. And when I say that, I

619
00:35:20.280 --> 00:35:22.119
don't care about this individual as far as as far

620
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:24.599
I'm not trying to make a point about this individual.

621
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:27.599
I'm trying to make a point much larger about churches,

622
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:31.559
all kinds of churches, small, big, We all talk a

623
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:35.599
big game. What do we actually do when we strip

624
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:38.719
away all of the marketing and all of the hype.

625
00:35:42.159 --> 00:35:44.159
And you're still saying it worked absolutely?

626
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:48.199
And I think this goes back to like recognizing, picking

627
00:35:48.199 --> 00:35:51.599
out a few the worst of the examples for the

628
00:35:51.719 --> 00:35:54.480
entire thing, and then casting it all in that shadow,

629
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:57.599
like the stereotypes. And the reason why we have stereotypes

630
00:35:57.639 --> 00:36:00.360
is because there's nuggets of truth to them. Right. I've

631
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:02.920
heard like some uh, you know, I've been on social

632
00:36:02.960 --> 00:36:05.400
media seen sermonclips around like what in the world where

633
00:36:05.400 --> 00:36:07.440
they are we thinking here, this is that's a circus,

634
00:36:07.480 --> 00:36:11.840
Like that's crazy, But those are like unfortunately, those are

635
00:36:12.039 --> 00:36:16.519
you know, they in the margins, and that's not necessarily

636
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:20.159
representative of most. Now. I run in lots and lots

637
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:23.320
of pastor circles and pastors that pastor lots of large churches,

638
00:36:23.920 --> 00:36:27.760
and it's it's a very small percentage that's thinking, how

639
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:29.599
can I just grow my church bigger because I want

640
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:32.599
to have a bigger church. Quite honestly, bigger churches are

641
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:36.000
a pain in the butt because it's like you because

642
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:38.400
here and there might have even been in some of

643
00:36:38.440 --> 00:36:41.000
the origins of this like wow, it would just be

644
00:36:41.079 --> 00:36:43.760
amazing if we could just grow a big church. Well,

645
00:36:43.760 --> 00:36:45.840
if you grow a big church full of like really

646
00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:49.880
spiritually immature people, that's a nightmare because it's all about

647
00:36:50.039 --> 00:36:52.960
it's like feeding the me monster. It's all about them,

648
00:36:53.119 --> 00:36:56.719
all about their experience consumer Christianity. That's and and as

649
00:36:56.760 --> 00:36:59.039
a pastor, we're called a shepherd, so at some point

650
00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:01.800
they've got to grow up in to maturity. So we

651
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:04.400
never like and we never like set out to say

652
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:07.920
how can we just build big crowds? Ironically, even here,

653
00:37:08.239 --> 00:37:11.679
especially like I would say post COVID, I never ever

654
00:37:11.719 --> 00:37:14.320
want to be abrasive. But I'm okay to be bold.

655
00:37:14.719 --> 00:37:17.480
I'm actually okay to and I'll tell my church and

656
00:37:17.280 --> 00:37:20.239
I and I think I think most people want truth,

657
00:37:20.360 --> 00:37:22.000
even truth that's a little bit up in their face

658
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:24.599
a little bit, because everybody wants to be challenged to grow.

659
00:37:24.679 --> 00:37:26.599
What they don't want is to be talked down to

660
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:29.159
or at by somebody who is coming across as if,

661
00:37:29.320 --> 00:37:30.960
hey man, I got this all figured out and you

662
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:34.159
just need to do as I do. That people hate

663
00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:37.559
that stuff, and so I don't. I've not arrived. I am.

664
00:37:37.679 --> 00:37:39.599
The same Holy spirit that's living in me, is the

665
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:42.679
same holy spirit that's living in others. And I'm still

666
00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:44.800
in process to grow as a disciple. I've still got

667
00:37:44.840 --> 00:37:48.519
my weak spots. So what I love about expository preaching

668
00:37:48.599 --> 00:37:50.679
is to say, we're going to address what's next in

669
00:37:50.719 --> 00:37:51.559
the text.

670
00:37:53.119 --> 00:37:56.039
Oh so now he's saying he does expository preaching. So

671
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:59.719
he says he does expository preaching. He reads, he explains,

672
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:03.760
he applies. He's not like other mega church pastors. He

673
00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:06.719
doesn't give people chicken nuggets. He gives them the full mill.

674
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:10.079
He's he's willing to tell them the truth. He doesn't

675
00:38:10.079 --> 00:38:12.480
want to be condescending or speak down to people, but

676
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:15.039
he's willing to be bold. He's willing to tell them

677
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:17.199
the truth even if they may not like it. Oh, WHOA,

678
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:21.280
this is sounding great man. This is sounding like this

679
00:38:21.320 --> 00:38:24.079
sounds like a great church. Right, this sounds I mean

680
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:26.400
we should all possibly move and go here, That's what

681
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:29.000
I mean. I mean maybe twelve thousand people, they could

682
00:38:29.440 --> 00:38:32.199
they could use another four or five, six thousand, but

683
00:38:32.239 --> 00:38:35.559
we should all go there, right because it sounds so good? Right.

684
00:38:37.960 --> 00:38:41.039
So it's not my agenda, it's God's. And before I

685
00:38:41.119 --> 00:38:44.519
ever stand to say, hey, thus saith the Lord, I

686
00:38:44.559 --> 00:38:46.280
need to actually sit in the text for a while

687
00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:47.599
and say, God, what do you have to say to me?

688
00:38:48.440 --> 00:38:49.960
And so I'll say to our people all the time,

689
00:38:50.039 --> 00:38:50.360
hey what.

690
00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:54.119
Am Okay, Now there's my problem. No, you don't sit

691
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:56.119
in the text and say God, what do you have

692
00:38:56.159 --> 00:38:57.960
to say to me? No, you go to the text

693
00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:00.440
to say what does the text say? Because the text

694
00:39:00.760 --> 00:39:03.480
is most of the time not about you. Okay, So

695
00:39:03.559 --> 00:39:06.320
now I'm starting to get friends. That's not expository preaching.

696
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:09.840
See he's already just distray. It's not expository preaching. Expository

697
00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:12.519
preaching is about the text. The text is not about Lord,

698
00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:15.159
what do you have to say to me? No, the

699
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:17.679
text is what does the text say? Because it may

700
00:39:17.719 --> 00:39:19.559
not be saying anything to you? Because I don't know

701
00:39:19.719 --> 00:39:22.920
you preached from Isaiah fifty for crying out loud. I

702
00:39:22.920 --> 00:39:25.199
wonder who that's about. I don't know, But do we

703
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:27.719
need to go through that whole thing again? All right?

704
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:30.000
But okay, all right, So now I'm already getting irritated

705
00:39:30.000 --> 00:39:36.000
because you already see the uh. Everything has sounded so good,

706
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:38.400
but right there's like a red flag. Whoa wait, wait, wait,

707
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:40.239
what You're gonna sit in the text to see what

708
00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:41.440
God has to say to you?

709
00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:42.000
No?

710
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:44.559
No, you spend the week in the text trying to

711
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:49.639
figure out what God said said in his word to

712
00:39:50.199 --> 00:39:52.039
the original recipients.

713
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:57.440
I'm gonna say next, out of this text may step

714
00:39:57.480 --> 00:40:00.199
on your soul toes, but God has already broke in

715
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:03.039
my feet, like little things like that where it's like

716
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:05.679
they're going, oh, like you're still you're still on the

717
00:40:05.719 --> 00:40:08.639
examining table as well. So once again, one of my

718
00:40:08.719 --> 00:40:11.039
other favorite definitions of preaching is that I'm just one

719
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:12.960
beggar trying to tell other beggars where to find food.

720
00:40:13.559 --> 00:40:15.840
And so I think that what we have to come

721
00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:19.000
at it is a posture of humility and brokenness.

722
00:40:20.719 --> 00:40:23.159
He's got all these cool little sayings, He's got all

723
00:40:23.239 --> 00:40:27.119
of these little slogans. Man, people love these slogans. You

724
00:40:27.119 --> 00:40:29.559
write those things down, people put them in their notes,

725
00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:31.679
they write them in the front of their Bible. Oh,

726
00:40:31.760 --> 00:40:34.400
these are good slogans. I'm not saying there's anything wrong

727
00:40:34.440 --> 00:40:37.280
with slogans and wrong with sayings. I'm not saying that

728
00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:40.800
people love that stuff. Okay, that's great. This just shows

729
00:40:40.800 --> 00:40:43.960
he's a very good communicator. He's got these things that

730
00:40:43.960 --> 00:40:46.800
they're ready and they sound good.

731
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:53.719
They sound spiritual, but also a sense of boldness and

732
00:40:53.760 --> 00:40:56.559
boldness and abrasiveness and like mean spirited. I'm not talking

733
00:40:56.559 --> 00:40:58.159
about the guys that are just like wanting to get

734
00:40:58.159 --> 00:41:02.119
clicks by just saying like outlandish things. But boldness is

735
00:41:02.159 --> 00:41:05.760
New Testament Christianity, and boldness is actually what brings people

736
00:41:05.800 --> 00:41:10.840
to conviction, repentance, and faith. I love the fact that

737
00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:13.360
Jesus was so tender with people, but he was also

738
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:15.920
bold and he would like, you know, the rich ong ruler,

739
00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:17.840
and so everything you have give to the poor, come

740
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:19.039
follow me. And he's like, I don't think I can

741
00:41:19.039 --> 00:41:21.880
do that, and Jesus like, okay, it's like he didn't

742
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:23.559
like water it down. He didn't run back after him

743
00:41:23.599 --> 00:41:25.039
and say, well, you know, if you just get half,

744
00:41:25.079 --> 00:41:27.239
that'd be good too. A woman at the well man

745
00:41:27.440 --> 00:41:30.760
like it's like Kate, she's so thirsty, give me this

746
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:33.519
living water. Well, go go get your husband. I don't

747
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:36.719
have a husband. Oh you've had five Wow Jesus like

748
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:39.800
like that's pretty bold, like and it wasn't. It didn't

749
00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:42.840
crush her because there's a difference between being shamed and convicted,

750
00:41:43.440 --> 00:41:45.880
and I think we got to get that right. So, yeah,

751
00:41:45.960 --> 00:41:49.559
I'm totally out on like watered down Ted talks self improvement.

752
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:51.320
Let me use a little bit of scripture and proof

753
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:53.119
texting to kind of just say the thing I want

754
00:41:53.119 --> 00:41:53.440
to say.

755
00:41:55.079 --> 00:41:59.000
Oh so he's out of this self improvement just using

756
00:41:59.079 --> 00:42:01.800
scripture to say what I want to say. Ted talks

757
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:04.440
watered down. He's against all of that because when he

758
00:42:04.559 --> 00:42:09.480
opens the Bible, it's expository. He's gonna dig into the text.

759
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:12.320
Just keep that in mind, right, Just keep that in mind,

760
00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:14.960
because when we listen to the sermons, you can tell

761
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.880
me if they agree or disagree. Right, you can tell

762
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:20.519
me whether they agree or disagree. You you may come

763
00:42:20.519 --> 00:42:22.880
to a completely different conclusion by the time this is over.

764
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:25.400
You may go this is my favorite pastor this is

765
00:42:25.440 --> 00:42:29.559
my favorite broadcaster. I'm gonna I'm gonna subscribe to their sermons.

766
00:42:29.639 --> 00:42:32.199
I'm gonna listen to them all, and biomeans that's great.

767
00:42:32.199 --> 00:42:37.480
If I lead you to what fits and works for you, great. Ill. Well,

768
00:42:37.559 --> 00:42:40.400
I just think we need to consider how we can

769
00:42:40.440 --> 00:42:44.159
possibly sound that good and maybe in practice it doesn't

770
00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:47.519
quite go that way. We'll see where this goes.

771
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:52.159
But I also think it's a misnomer to say you

772
00:42:52.199 --> 00:42:56.239
can't get up and be bold with God's truth and

773
00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:58.400
then let him do what it'll do. Is it Charles

774
00:42:58.400 --> 00:43:00.000
Spurgeon who said you don't need to defend the line

775
00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:03.039
and just let it out of this cage. And I've

776
00:43:03.079 --> 00:43:04.719
just seen that over and over and over again.

777
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:07.119
One thing that I'm starting to really think through is

778
00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:10.960
when maturing believers, it seems like there's like a conversation happening.

779
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:12.960
And I mean, you know this probably more than I do,

780
00:43:13.079 --> 00:43:15.400
like being in ministry for so long, but there's always cycles,

781
00:43:15.440 --> 00:43:20.000
and people seem to be more wanting tradition, more wanting

782
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:23.639
something rooted or sacramental or liturgy of some sort to

783
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:25.280
redecrete every once in a while, to go back to

784
00:43:25.320 --> 00:43:28.400
a hymn every once in a while to actually take

785
00:43:29.079 --> 00:43:31.039
I would actually like to talk to you about your

786
00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:34.800
theology on both the eucharists slash communion and baptism, like

787
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:35.840
kind of what you think about that?

788
00:43:37.679 --> 00:43:40.599
WHOA people want to go back to sacraments. You do

789
00:43:40.679 --> 00:43:47.559
realize sacramental system is a completely You understand that that's

790
00:43:47.559 --> 00:43:51.559
a completely different theology if you're going sacramental. So I

791
00:43:51.639 --> 00:43:54.400
don't think that there's no way this pastor sacramental. It's

792
00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:58.159
an evangelical megature. They're not. They don't hold the sacraments,

793
00:43:58.199 --> 00:44:01.519
they hold the ordinances. So I hope they get I

794
00:44:01.559 --> 00:44:04.119
hope the pastor corrects this immediately. I mean, if he's

795
00:44:04.159 --> 00:44:07.119
an expository pastor who doesn't give people chicken nuggets, he

796
00:44:07.159 --> 00:44:09.239
will be like, WHOA wait a minute, We do not

797
00:44:09.320 --> 00:44:12.000
hold the sacraments. We hold the ordinances because sacraments are

798
00:44:12.199 --> 00:44:15.440
visible means of grace and okay and salviav okay, we

799
00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:18.079
could get in. Okay, we'll see where this goes. But

800
00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:21.119
that caught my attention as well.

801
00:44:21.840 --> 00:44:25.679
But it seems like historical Protestantism was really like firm

802
00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:29.440
on sacraments and liturgy, trying to have some type of

803
00:44:29.639 --> 00:44:33.159
a rhythm of spiritual disciplines. And I think somewhere along

804
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:35.880
the line we were like, this is fundamental, this is traditionalists,

805
00:44:36.039 --> 00:44:38.440
Like we're just being legalistic now, like we don't even

806
00:44:38.480 --> 00:44:40.440
know what these things are talking about or care about them.

807
00:44:40.440 --> 00:44:43.159
We just do them and it's not coming from the

808
00:44:43.199 --> 00:44:47.079
heart anymore or something like that. But of course society

809
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:50.400
just always circles back around, and there's all these kind

810
00:44:50.440 --> 00:44:53.280
of stats that are coming out, especially young men that

811
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:55.639
want something more simple, want something more slow.

812
00:44:55.960 --> 00:44:58.000
We're in right now.

813
00:44:57.920 --> 00:45:01.519
Just the fastest paced lifestyle in human history, Like we're

814
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:05.239
just constantly bombarded. And then I mean, I think, to

815
00:45:05.360 --> 00:45:08.719
my opinion, now a fair critique is now we walk

816
00:45:08.760 --> 00:45:11.400
into church and it's kind of entertainment as well, and

817
00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:13.719
so like we have these lights, we have these like

818
00:45:13.880 --> 00:45:18.559
just parading smoke and all these this kind of what

819
00:45:18.599 --> 00:45:20.639
people are calling worship tainment. And I don't know how

820
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:23.599
I feel about that yet, but worship tainment. And it's like, man,

821
00:45:24.159 --> 00:45:26.519
I thought this was a place like could come escape

822
00:45:26.559 --> 00:45:28.400
to to be a little bit more slow, to be

823
00:45:28.440 --> 00:45:31.280
a little bit more reverential, to be with my believers,

824
00:45:31.559 --> 00:45:33.840
not in a dark room, looking at this super lit

825
00:45:33.960 --> 00:45:38.000
up stage.

826
00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:41.519
I'm cracking up because he's describing the homepage of the

827
00:45:41.639 --> 00:45:45.280
very church of the pastor he's talking to, which is

828
00:45:45.320 --> 00:45:48.679
this big lit up stage which looks like worship tainment.

829
00:45:48.719 --> 00:45:51.079
That's what it looks like. It looks like worship tainments.

830
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:53.840
That's what it looks like. It looks like I mean,

831
00:45:53.880 --> 00:45:57.960
he's literally describing the church that he's talking this pastor to,

832
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:01.519
and it's like sacrament. Now, now, i think maybe there

833
00:46:01.559 --> 00:46:04.840
have been some studies that people are looking for something different.

834
00:46:04.920 --> 00:46:08.719
They kind of grown tired of this worship tainment, this entertainment,

835
00:46:09.079 --> 00:46:15.639
and they want something liturgical, maybe something rooted in historical Christianity,

836
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:19.480
maybe a liturgy, maybe a creed. Okay, and that is

837
00:46:19.480 --> 00:46:23.280
an interesting development, right, There's been a lot of discussion

838
00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:28.199
of younger men, it seems, possibly heading towards Catholicism or

839
00:46:28.280 --> 00:46:33.840
Greek Orthodoxy. There has been some discussion of that. Now

840
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.199
he's talking to someone who's not Greek Orthodox, not Roman Catholic,

841
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:41.679
not liturgical, and definitely not sacramental. So I'm going to

842
00:46:41.719 --> 00:46:45.079
be interesting to see if the pastor even corrects this

843
00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:47.920
discussion of sacraments.

844
00:46:47.320 --> 00:46:52.679
Here where everything is just so timed out and I

845
00:46:52.760 --> 00:46:55.800
have no breath, and I'm starting to kind of understand that.

846
00:46:55.840 --> 00:46:57.320
And I don't know if it's because I'm just kind

847
00:46:57.320 --> 00:46:59.360
of growing in my faith and wanting to slow down

848
00:46:59.360 --> 00:47:01.679
a little bit with my relationship with God and try

849
00:47:01.719 --> 00:47:04.519
not to distract myself and just be as intentional as

850
00:47:04.519 --> 00:47:07.119
possible with all my disciplines. But it seems like that's

851
00:47:07.199 --> 00:47:09.840
kind of what even the outside world is kind of expecting,

852
00:47:09.880 --> 00:47:12.199
like when they think of Christianity, when they think of religion,

853
00:47:12.480 --> 00:47:14.480
they think of something to kind of hit the brakes

854
00:47:14.519 --> 00:47:17.800
and to answer questions. Don't entertain me, don't try to

855
00:47:18.159 --> 00:47:20.880
slight of hand me. I just want the real thing, like,

856
00:47:21.119 --> 00:47:23.599
is what do you guys truly believe? And then believers

857
00:47:23.599 --> 00:47:25.320
on the other side are saying like, hey, maybe we've

858
00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:27.360
been eating chicken nuggets for a while, we kind of

859
00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:29.519
actually want to move on to that next meal.

860
00:47:31.519 --> 00:47:32.519
How do you feel about that?

861
00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:34.800
Do you think that there is ways that a larger

862
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:37.679
church can pivot to answer some of these things, especially

863
00:47:37.679 --> 00:47:41.679
with young men, that like are you against liturgy?

864
00:47:41.719 --> 00:47:43.679
Are you against creeds? Are you against hims?

865
00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:46.400
Are you against bringing back communion to kind of be

866
00:47:46.559 --> 00:47:49.960
a more sacramental type of mentality? And like, are you

867
00:47:50.039 --> 00:47:51.920
hearing any of those conversations and you're.

868
00:47:54.039 --> 00:47:56.079
You can't. What do you mean bring it back to

869
00:47:56.119 --> 00:47:58.920
be sacramental? If you bring it back as a sacrament,

870
00:47:58.960 --> 00:48:01.079
then what you're saying is that by partaking of the

871
00:48:01.159 --> 00:48:05.320
Lord's Supper you receive the forgiveness of sense that something

872
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:09.000
is imparted that they're we'd have to look at a

873
00:48:10.320 --> 00:48:17.360
Lutheran or Catholic or Greek Orthodoxy view of a sacramental system.

874
00:48:17.960 --> 00:48:21.320
So why he can't used the word sacrament there like

875
00:48:22.400 --> 00:48:26.559
sacramental sacrament maybe three four times? So I'm assuming this

876
00:48:26.639 --> 00:48:30.639
pastor who's about expository preaching, and I'm assuming he's going

877
00:48:30.679 --> 00:48:33.320
to fix that immediately. I mean, he should correct that

878
00:48:33.480 --> 00:48:37.199
immediately unless he believes in sacramental but he's it's an

879
00:48:37.239 --> 00:48:41.400
evangelical megachurch. It's not sacramental unless it is, and then

880
00:48:41.519 --> 00:48:43.159
that's going to be very interesting.

881
00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:49.079
Their own Like I guess pastor groups people like believers

882
00:48:49.079 --> 00:48:50.480
coming up to you and saying like, hey, can we

883
00:48:50.480 --> 00:48:51.480
slow it down a little bit?

884
00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:53.039
Like what are you hearing on that side?

885
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.599
Yeah? No, I appreciate that. Wow, man, there's a lot there,

886
00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:57.039
There's a lot. I mean, I think First of all,

887
00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:59.119
I would say, like, I'm totally with you in this sense.

888
00:48:59.400 --> 00:49:02.440
I've got a heart for young men as well. And

889
00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:06.400
I think really what they're desiring is like just authenticity

890
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:08.960
and real talk. Which is why I think they're attracted

891
00:49:09.000 --> 00:49:12.639
to podcasts like Rogan and Jordan Peterson and those types

892
00:49:12.679 --> 00:49:15.079
of things, is they're just like man. Just in fact,

893
00:49:15.079 --> 00:49:16.840
I think there's been the watering down of a lot

894
00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:18.880
of pulpits, so the young men are running a podcasts.

895
00:49:18.920 --> 00:49:20.480
I think there's a lot of stuff that's happening in

896
00:49:20.519 --> 00:49:24.199
all that I'll preach and it's not from the Bible,

897
00:49:24.239 --> 00:49:27.079
but it's a cultural observation. But so I do think

898
00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:31.639
that that that there's lots of young men wanting something substantial. Now,

899
00:49:31.639 --> 00:49:34.239
whether that comes in the form of liturgy and like

900
00:49:34.400 --> 00:49:37.480
slow it down and it could be maybe not, Like

901
00:49:37.639 --> 00:49:39.360
I just think that really I think we got to

902
00:49:39.400 --> 00:49:41.599
like cut through all the melees to say, hey, like,

903
00:49:41.840 --> 00:49:44.199
what does God's word like really have to say on

904
00:49:44.239 --> 00:49:46.480
that give it to me straight? What's how do I

905
00:49:46.519 --> 00:49:49.119
how do I follow after him? Help me how to

906
00:49:49.159 --> 00:49:51.079
do hard things in this culture? I think that's a

907
00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:54.119
that's baseline, and I would I'm with you in the

908
00:49:54.159 --> 00:49:58.199
sense that like, uh, once again, we could look at

909
00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:00.760
all this stuff, you know, worship tame, we could we

910
00:50:00.960 --> 00:50:03.000
it's all in the way that we describe it. So

911
00:50:03.559 --> 00:50:07.239
billowing smoke, flashy lights. I've seen that done really poorly

912
00:50:07.440 --> 00:50:10.639
and tacky. I'm seeing it done quite well, you know.

913
00:50:10.719 --> 00:50:12.559
And I think we talked about this a little bit.

914
00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.239
I don't want to overstate this because once again, we

915
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:17.880
don't need to get lost in the weeds. But oftentimes

916
00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:19.760
a critique is what you're just trying to be like

917
00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:23.719
the culture in order to you know, engage more people.

918
00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:25.320
I would say, we back all the way all that up.

919
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:26.599
There's a lot of people that would say, I'm in

920
00:50:26.679 --> 00:50:28.599
the hymns are just like where it's at. Well, the

921
00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:30.760
hymns didn't come out of the New Testament. The hen

922
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:34.239
comes out of a cultural moment. Actually, I don't know

923
00:50:34.239 --> 00:50:36.280
you can fact check me on this, but like I

924
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:40.480
believe the tune Amazing Grace was set to a bar tune.

925
00:50:41.199 --> 00:50:44.039
It came out of a saloon. Pianos were not allowed

926
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:46.880
in churches because that was a saloon instrument, and so

927
00:50:47.079 --> 00:50:49.559
whoever wrote Amazing Grace set it to the tune of

928
00:50:49.599 --> 00:50:53.119
a popular saloon tune and they brought it into the church,

929
00:50:54.159 --> 00:50:56.480
very controversial at the time. Now a lot of people

930
00:50:56.480 --> 00:50:58.079
will go, oh, man, just give me some amazing grace,

931
00:50:58.119 --> 00:51:01.119
but via piano, and that came out of a cultural

932
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:03.000
moment that wasn't in the Book of Acts. So I

933
00:51:03.000 --> 00:51:04.760
think we just got to contextualize a lot of that.

934
00:51:05.440 --> 00:51:07.199
The other thing I would say, is it, man, if

935
00:51:07.239 --> 00:51:09.599
you read Revelation for that sounds a lot like kind

936
00:51:09.599 --> 00:51:10.800
I'm a modern day worship service.

937
00:51:12.440 --> 00:51:15.039
Okay, So all right, So he's not even gonna deal.

938
00:51:15.920 --> 00:51:19.480
He's not even going to go with the sacraments. He's

939
00:51:19.519 --> 00:51:21.079
just going to avoid that. And you see he's kind

940
00:51:21.079 --> 00:51:25.119
of pushing back a little bit about the worship tainment

941
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:27.400
because again, if you go to their website, if you

942
00:51:27.440 --> 00:51:29.559
go to the website of the church I'm looking at it.

943
00:51:29.760 --> 00:51:36.599
If you go to TPCC dot org, tp CC dot oorg,

944
00:51:36.920 --> 00:51:38.840
the first thing you see when it opens up, it's

945
00:51:38.920 --> 00:51:43.239
Trader's Point Christian Church, one church, multiple locations, and what

946
00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:49.159
do you see, Big lights, a praise band, big led screens,

947
00:51:49.559 --> 00:51:53.039
a whole it looks like a set design, a whole stage.

948
00:51:53.440 --> 00:51:57.320
It's worship tainment. So clearly he's going to push back.

949
00:51:57.639 --> 00:52:01.039
Clearly he's going to push back, so I just find

950
00:52:01.039 --> 00:52:04.119
it hilarious. There does The interviewer had never been to

951
00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:07.360
the church's website. I don't know, but let me just

952
00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:11.480
go ahead and take care of this. Amazing Grace was

953
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:13.519
not taken from a bar tune. That seems to be

954
00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:16.800
a common myth that gets confused with other hymn histories.

955
00:52:17.679 --> 00:52:20.880
The lyrics were written in seventeen seventy two by John Newton,

956
00:52:20.920 --> 00:52:23.760
a former slave trader who converted to Christianity. The words

957
00:52:23.800 --> 00:52:26.239
were meant to accompany his New Year's Day sermon in

958
00:52:26.280 --> 00:52:29.639
seventeen seventy three, and was originally published in his seventeen

959
00:52:29.719 --> 00:52:34.559
seventy nine Him collection. In his seventeen seventy nine Hymn collection,

960
00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:38.679
the melody, the now famous tune associated with Amazing Grace

961
00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:41.599
is called New Britain. It was first paired with Newton's

962
00:52:41.639 --> 00:52:44.360
lyrics in eighteen thirty five, more than sixty years after

963
00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:49.159
he wrote them, and William Walker's Southern harmony Sheiks a

964
00:52:49.280 --> 00:52:53.599
shape note tune book. Originally, the tune is a folk

965
00:52:53.760 --> 00:53:00.440
melody of unknown origin, possibly Scottish Irish, but it wasn't

966
00:53:00.480 --> 00:53:03.079
a bar tune, there's no evidence that came from a

967
00:53:03.159 --> 00:53:07.400
drinking song or pub melody. The myth that many hymns

968
00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:09.920
like Amazing Grace were set to bar tunes comes from

969
00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:14.159
a misunderstanding of Martin Luther's practice of using popular melodies

970
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:19.440
for hymns, though though often that is often overstated and misrepresented.

971
00:53:19.760 --> 00:53:22.400
If you've heard this story in a sermon or book,

972
00:53:22.480 --> 00:53:25.159
it's likely a version of the broader myth that early

973
00:53:25.239 --> 00:53:28.599
Christians have baptized secular music to use in worship. But

974
00:53:28.679 --> 00:53:33.079
Amazing Grace does not fit that narrative. So we have

975
00:53:33.119 --> 00:53:39.559
a pastor giving fraudilent information. Tell me it's not so,

976
00:53:39.800 --> 00:53:44.480
because that never happens. Pastors never did. He says, you

977
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:46.760
can fact check me, Well, I just fact checked you.

978
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:49.880
I just fact checked you in fact in twenty twenty five.

979
00:53:50.159 --> 00:53:52.159
If I'm doing an interview and the person says I

980
00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:53.920
can fact check you, I would have been like, give

981
00:53:53.960 --> 00:53:58.679
me one second. That's not true, all right, So it's

982
00:53:58.679 --> 00:54:04.440
not true. It's just not true. For crying out loud,

983
00:54:04.760 --> 00:54:09.280
it's not true. But because he's trying to use it

984
00:54:09.320 --> 00:54:13.039
to kind of justify his worship tamement. But he's not

985
00:54:13.039 --> 00:54:15.000
coming out and say, well, wait a minute, now, are

986
00:54:15.000 --> 00:54:18.400
you familiar with my church? We believe in worship tament.

987
00:54:18.559 --> 00:54:20.519
But in a round a way, he's offering a defense

988
00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:24.280
without coming out saying, dude, do you know who you're interviewing?

989
00:54:24.440 --> 00:54:28.679
Because I mean, look at the church's website. It looks

990
00:54:28.719 --> 00:54:32.880
like a concert. The lights are dark, all the lights

991
00:54:32.920 --> 00:54:38.480
on the stage are bright. If that's not worship tayment,

992
00:54:38.599 --> 00:54:39.679
I don't know what it is.

993
00:54:42.039 --> 00:54:44.880
The throne room of heaven. And there was like all

994
00:54:44.920 --> 00:54:48.360
of these colors. There was this smoke or haze. There

995
00:54:48.360 --> 00:54:50.559
were the you know, laying down their crowns, singing, Holy,

996
00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:53.519
Holy Holy. It doesn't necessarily seem so much like a

997
00:54:53.960 --> 00:54:55.800
like a liturgical kind of moment, not one.

998
00:54:57.519 --> 00:55:04.360
He's trying to use Versus from Revelation to defend smoke

999
00:55:04.480 --> 00:55:17.000
machines in worship. But he he's not like other megachurch pastors.

1000
00:55:17.400 --> 00:55:23.920
He give me, give me a break. Okay, all right,

1001
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:26.360
I've heard everything. We're gonna use the Book of Revelation.

1002
00:55:26.679 --> 00:55:29.679
Did I say revelations? I apologize the Book of Revelation

1003
00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:36.559
to justify, justify smoke machines. That's the most ridiculous. Hey,

1004
00:55:36.719 --> 00:55:38.519
how about we give us that text and we go,

1005
00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:41.320
I don't know, try to expound it. Okay, I'm sure

1006
00:55:41.320 --> 00:55:43.960
that's what the Book of Revelation was trying bright lights,

1007
00:55:44.320 --> 00:55:47.360
smoke machines. It comes from the worship and the Book

1008
00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:52.719
of Revelation. Okay, come on, you know nobody else is laughing.

1009
00:55:54.840 --> 00:55:57.519
I'm gonna overread that. I will say this. If we're

1010
00:55:57.559 --> 00:55:58.639
talking about like.

1011
00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:02.559
John No, I agree, he's I don't want to overread this.

1012
00:56:03.239 --> 00:56:06.360
But you just did.

1013
00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:08.760
One's glimpse in into the throne room? Could it quite

1014
00:56:09.039 --> 00:56:11.719
possibly be? Because everybody in culture, regardless if they've acknowledged

1015
00:56:11.719 --> 00:56:13.320
God or not, has been made in the image of God.

1016
00:56:13.719 --> 00:56:17.719
So that that actually what's happening at rock concerts is

1017
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:20.880
they're trying to unknowingly mimicking what's going on in Revelation

1018
00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:24.400
for and so I would.

1019
00:56:24.639 --> 00:56:32.400
Wait, So, so what happens in rock concerts is they

1020
00:56:32.480 --> 00:56:38.519
unknowingly are basically mimicking or doing what's in Revelation Chapter four,

1021
00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:41.679
Ladies and Jail, this is what that's the kind of

1022
00:56:41.920 --> 00:56:46.559
You should go to this church because this pastor he

1023
00:56:47.559 --> 00:56:52.320
ok man alive, so he's head. I'm telling you. The

1024
00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:56.800
interviewer obviously has never been to the website. The website

1025
00:56:56.880 --> 00:57:00.800
is it's full blown worship tainment. Now I'm going to

1026
00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:03.880
have to go find video. If they're actually worship services,

1027
00:57:04.360 --> 00:57:08.800
you can go look for them TPCC dot org TPCC

1028
00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:13.320
dot org. And again, remember, my whole issue is the

1029
00:57:13.360 --> 00:57:16.440
pastors say all the right words. He said all the

1030
00:57:16.559 --> 00:57:19.159
right words at the beginning. It's about glorifying God. We

1031
00:57:19.199 --> 00:57:21.360
don't want to just feed people chicken nuggets. We want

1032
00:57:21.400 --> 00:57:23.480
to expound scripture. Well, I want to read it, I

1033
00:57:23.519 --> 00:57:26.079
want to explain it, I want to all the words

1034
00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:28.599
sounded so good. And the next thing, you know, we

1035
00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:31.800
get fraudulent information about amazing grace and we now have

1036
00:57:32.239 --> 00:57:37.360
Revelation four used to justify smoke machines and bright lights

1037
00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:40.360
and a stage when you're supposedly trying to have church.

1038
00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:52.880
Oh man, I'd say that it's not always because we're

1039
00:57:52.880 --> 00:57:55.760
trying to mimic the culture. We're trying to get vertical

1040
00:57:56.079 --> 00:57:59.679
the glorification of God in this moment. I'm not against

1041
00:58:00.360 --> 00:58:03.840
I'm not against liturgy. The catechisms I think are great. Obviously,

1042
00:58:03.960 --> 00:58:06.920
that's that's a tool of discipleship to try to help people.

1043
00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:09.599
So yes, I think right now, in a lot of

1044
00:58:09.639 --> 00:58:10.320
the conversations.

1045
00:58:11.920 --> 00:58:15.239
Catechisms are great. I wonder which catechisms your church uses.

1046
00:58:16.960 --> 00:58:19.239
So far, looking at your website, I haven't found them.

1047
00:58:19.639 --> 00:58:22.719
Maybe they do. Maybe you have a class on when

1048
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:29.920
we say catechisms, Which catechism Westminster Shorter, Larger Luther, Luther's Catechism.

1049
00:58:30.079 --> 00:58:34.320
Which catechism are you referring to Puritan catechism? Which one?

1050
00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:36.760
I'm just curious which one do you promote? Which one

1051
00:58:36.760 --> 00:58:38.840
do you if it's a discipleship, you're not a Are

1052
00:58:38.880 --> 00:58:41.079
you just saying you're not against them? They're great in theory,

1053
00:58:41.119 --> 00:58:43.360
but you don't use it. See he's trying to say.

1054
00:58:43.400 --> 00:58:46.679
He keeps saying all the right words, but you can

1055
00:58:46.719 --> 00:58:50.400
see the pushback there. I got to defend the model

1056
00:58:50.480 --> 00:58:53.719
we use, because well, they're the model they use. That's

1057
00:58:53.760 --> 00:59:01.639
the thing. The model is not matching these wordsation.

1058
00:58:59.079 --> 00:59:02.320
Is is that we want to not entertain anybody. We

1059
00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:06.199
do want to engage those who may have some church baggage,

1060
00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:10.639
some church hurt, some resistance to some things done well

1061
00:59:11.239 --> 00:59:13.800
to try to engage them vertically with the presence and

1062
00:59:13.880 --> 00:59:17.519
power of God, not water anything down, and then at

1063
00:59:17.519 --> 00:59:21.639
the same time bring in and we will sing a hymn,

1064
00:59:22.559 --> 00:59:26.360
we will take communion together. We have baptisms as a

1065
00:59:26.360 --> 00:59:29.960
part of our celebration quite frequently. And so I think

1066
00:59:29.960 --> 00:59:32.679
that there's a way for you. And I talked about

1067
00:59:32.679 --> 00:59:35.639
this a little bit, is that you know, in every

1068
00:59:36.920 --> 00:59:40.000
cultural era of the expression of the Bride of Christ

1069
00:59:40.119 --> 00:59:42.880
the Church, it's got to always be We've got to

1070
00:59:42.920 --> 00:59:46.000
always be examining it. Hey, have we lost our way?

1071
00:59:46.360 --> 00:59:48.840
Have gone? Have we veered in any way? God? Is

1072
00:59:48.880 --> 00:59:50.639
this still glorifying you as is still doing what you

1073
00:59:50.719 --> 00:59:53.440
called it to do? And if not, reform and redeem it,

1074
00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:56.599
not burn it to the ground, not forsake it, not deconstruct,

1075
00:59:56.639 --> 00:59:59.119
not walk away. But how do we reform and kind

1076
00:59:59.119 --> 01:00:00.599
of continue to bring this back? And I think that

1077
01:00:00.599 --> 01:00:04.559
that's happening in all the pastor's circles. Obviously not with everybody,

1078
01:00:04.880 --> 01:00:07.400
but the vast majority pastors that I know are going, Man,

1079
01:00:07.440 --> 01:00:09.880
how do we make sure that we continue to stay

1080
01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:13.840
focused upon God and what it is that He's called

1081
01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:16.719
us to do in this cultural moment to reach people

1082
01:00:16.800 --> 01:00:19.280
that are really far from God, Introduce them to Jesus,

1083
01:00:19.320 --> 01:00:22.320
grow them up in Jesus, send them out.

1084
01:00:24.039 --> 01:00:26.119
Now, there you have it. There's the interview. Now, first,

1085
01:00:26.239 --> 01:00:28.559
did you notice he did not even bother to correct

1086
01:00:28.599 --> 01:00:31.440
a sacramental language. He didn't even bother to correct it.

1087
01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:33.960
He didn't even bother to go, whoa, when you say sacrament,

1088
01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:36.880
what do you mean by sacrament? What is your definition

1089
01:00:36.920 --> 01:00:40.440
of a sacrament? Now? Look, I've had people I've known

1090
01:00:40.519 --> 01:00:42.920
who talk about their church doing sacraments, and I'm like,

1091
01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:47.440
your church is not sacramental. Why are you using a

1092
01:00:47.440 --> 01:00:51.119
theological term like sacrament that's a visible means of grace?

1093
01:00:51.199 --> 01:00:54.159
What are you talking about? Okay, So, once again it

1094
01:00:54.320 --> 01:00:57.559
just shows theological illiteracy in the American church. He is

1095
01:00:57.599 --> 01:00:59.719
a pastor if his church is not going to feed

1096
01:00:59.719 --> 01:01:02.639
people chicken nuggets and he's gonna glorify God and all

1097
01:01:02.719 --> 01:01:04.960
the things. That sounded so good. You could start by

1098
01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:06.960
I don't know whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. We've got a

1099
01:01:07.119 --> 01:01:09.760
we've got a disagreement here, because what do you mean

1100
01:01:09.800 --> 01:01:12.960
by sacraments? But but you did you see he pushed

1101
01:01:13.039 --> 01:01:17.360
back strong on, Hey don't know, let's not talk about

1102
01:01:17.360 --> 01:01:20.519
worship tainment because and because I don't know who that

1103
01:01:20.519 --> 01:01:22.800
that person was interviewing. They clearly have never been to

1104
01:01:22.840 --> 01:01:24.760
the church. Website again. I want you to go here

1105
01:01:26.159 --> 01:01:32.079
TPCC dot o r G TPCC dot o RG. Now

1106
01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:34.880
we're gonna dig into a little bit more about this church.

1107
01:01:35.800 --> 01:01:38.679
That the review went much longer than I wanted it to. Okay,

1108
01:01:38.760 --> 01:01:41.000
I should have known that the review went much longer

1109
01:01:41.199 --> 01:01:43.719
because we're we're almost at an hour already. What I'm

1110
01:01:43.760 --> 01:01:45.960
going to do is just give you a little preview

1111
01:01:46.400 --> 01:01:48.920
of the sermon. So I'm gonna go over here, I'm

1112
01:01:48.920 --> 01:01:52.599
gonna I'm gonna get the sermon. All right, I'm gonna

1113
01:01:52.679 --> 01:01:55.119
upload the sermon. Here we go. Now, the sermon was

1114
01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:58.280
preached this year. I went to the beginning of the year,

1115
01:01:58.840 --> 01:02:02.199
and uh, well, look, we're gonna hear the beginning of it,

1116
01:02:02.400 --> 01:02:05.280
and you just tell me what you think. Remember, he's

1117
01:02:05.440 --> 01:02:12.960
all about not Ted talks, not motivational speeches, but expository preaching.

1118
01:02:13.760 --> 01:02:16.159
He doesn't want to give people chicken nuggets. He doesn't

1119
01:02:16.159 --> 01:02:17.960
want to just be. He wants to give them the

1120
01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:20.719
Word of God. I mean, it all sounded so good.

1121
01:02:21.239 --> 01:02:23.400
Well how does the sermon begin? Let's find out?

1122
01:02:25.840 --> 01:02:27.840
Well, good to be with everybody today as we get

1123
01:02:27.840 --> 01:02:32.559
ready to weather the great Snowstorm of twenty twenty five. Hey,

1124
01:02:32.599 --> 01:02:35.159
it wouldn't be January in Indiana with that one, So

1125
01:02:35.320 --> 01:02:36.960
I don't know. It kind of feels like par for

1126
01:02:37.000 --> 01:02:39.280
the course. But I'm glad you guys are here. I

1127
01:02:39.320 --> 01:02:42.360
want to welcome everybody across all of our locations in online.

1128
01:02:42.480 --> 01:02:48.079
Today's message is just gonna be an extremely extremely practical

1129
01:02:48.119 --> 01:02:50.760
message to kick off the brand new year. And at

1130
01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:53.159
the end of today's message, we're gonna take communion together

1131
01:02:53.199 --> 01:02:55.440
across all of our locations. So just right now, I

1132
01:02:55.440 --> 01:02:57.119
just want to encourage you to, if you don't have

1133
01:02:57.199 --> 01:03:01.280
that already, grab a communion cup to be to participate

1134
01:03:01.320 --> 01:03:03.159
with us here in just a few moments.

1135
01:03:03.199 --> 01:03:07.519
But okay, so the church is in Indiana. If you

1136
01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:11.800
didn't catch on Indianapolis, Indiana, they're gonna all take communion

1137
01:03:12.119 --> 01:03:16.039
multiple campuses, all right, So multiple campus I mean, just

1138
01:03:16.039 --> 01:03:18.119
just the minute. When you hear the sound the sound

1139
01:03:18.199 --> 01:03:21.119
of the music there fading out, him him coming in,

1140
01:03:21.679 --> 01:03:24.440
I mean, this is Mega Church one oh one. It's

1141
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:27.320
like there's nothing here that's unique at all. There's nothing

1142
01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:31.719
here unique. Everything here sounds like Mega Church one oh one. Now,

1143
01:03:31.760 --> 01:03:34.559
the interview made it sound like some that he's different

1144
01:03:34.599 --> 01:03:37.880
than all the megachurch pastors there that his church is different.

1145
01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:40.119
You look at the website, it looks like every other

1146
01:03:40.199 --> 01:03:43.920
megachurch website. There's nothing different about this. But it sounded

1147
01:03:44.000 --> 01:03:46.679
so good. And that's that's the point. I'm gonna really

1148
01:03:46.679 --> 01:03:48.480
try to drive home. So here's what we're gonna do.

1149
01:03:48.519 --> 01:03:49.960
I'm just gonna listen to a little bit of this,

1150
01:03:50.039 --> 01:03:52.800
all right, and and oh we're gonna have to do

1151
01:03:52.840 --> 01:03:55.760
a second episode where we dig into the sermon. But

1152
01:03:55.840 --> 01:03:58.400
that's okay, that's okay, because but I want you to

1153
01:03:58.599 --> 01:04:01.960
just go to you can go to TPCC dot org.

1154
01:04:02.199 --> 01:04:04.960
Look around, look around, and just tell me. You're gonna

1155
01:04:04.960 --> 01:04:07.880
see all the same small groups, gonna have small groups.

1156
01:04:08.320 --> 01:04:10.480
I know how much their budget is. I know how

1157
01:04:10.519 --> 01:04:13.280
much the budget is for this church. If you're if

1158
01:04:13.320 --> 01:04:16.519
you're curious the budget for this church? Are you ready?

1159
01:04:17.360 --> 01:04:20.039
Are you ready for the budget? The budget for this

1160
01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:24.719
church is. I've got the exact numbers to see here.

1161
01:04:24.880 --> 01:04:31.480
The budget is thirty million, two hundred and fifty two thousand,

1162
01:04:32.079 --> 01:04:38.840
two hundred and fifteen dollars, thirty million dollars. Ladies and gentlemen,

1163
01:04:39.079 --> 01:04:41.400
all right, well there they're I'm sorry, don't make me

1164
01:04:41.400 --> 01:04:45.000
get the numbers correct. The expense. The expenses to keep

1165
01:04:45.000 --> 01:04:49.079
the church operating each year is twenty five million, three

1166
01:04:49.159 --> 01:04:52.159
hundred and eight thousand, three hundred and ninety four. They

1167
01:04:52.239 --> 01:04:55.880
brought in thirty million dollars, so I have a surplus

1168
01:04:55.920 --> 01:04:58.199
of four million, nine hundred and forty three dollars eight

1169
01:04:58.320 --> 01:05:00.480
hundred and twenty one. They have a surplus a four

1170
01:05:00.599 --> 01:05:07.199
million dollars twenty five million dollars for this church operate

1171
01:05:07.639 --> 01:05:14.159
twenty five million dollars. For twenty five million dollars, I

1172
01:05:14.280 --> 01:05:17.480
better get the greatest sermon that I have ever heard

1173
01:05:17.760 --> 01:05:25.199
in the history of humankind for twenty five million dollars.

1174
01:05:26.000 --> 01:05:26.559
Here we go.

1175
01:05:28.480 --> 01:05:31.199
It's hard to believe that it's twenty twenty five. Can

1176
01:05:31.199 --> 01:05:35.480
anybody else believe that we are officially a quarter of

1177
01:05:35.519 --> 01:05:37.480
a way through this century? That's one way to think

1178
01:05:37.480 --> 01:05:40.199
about it, which makes me feel really old. And I

1179
01:05:40.239 --> 01:05:42.519
don't know how you're feeling about a new year. I

1180
01:05:42.519 --> 01:05:44.800
don't know if you're kind of like the bandwagon like

1181
01:05:44.920 --> 01:05:48.000
New Year's resolutions, goal setting, like you're super super excited

1182
01:05:48.000 --> 01:05:51.519
about it, or if maybe you're a little bit cynical

1183
01:05:51.559 --> 01:05:54.079
and you've got some doubts and you're just totally like

1184
01:05:54.239 --> 01:05:56.440
not a New Year's resolution person.

1185
01:05:56.480 --> 01:05:58.559
I can kind of understand that as well.

1186
01:05:58.599 --> 01:06:00.639
But what I want to invite you into is to

1187
01:06:00.679 --> 01:06:05.159
do a little bit of e valuation as to what

1188
01:06:05.199 --> 01:06:06.920
we just came out of the last twelve months and

1189
01:06:06.920 --> 01:06:09.239
then what we're kind of entering into. I typically do

1190
01:06:09.320 --> 01:06:13.400
that between Christmas and New Year's those five to seven days,

1191
01:06:13.880 --> 01:06:17.400
I'll just spend a little bit of time reflecting upon

1192
01:06:17.639 --> 01:06:20.320
the previous year and then getting my heart ready for

1193
01:06:20.360 --> 01:06:20.960
the year to come.

1194
01:06:23.000 --> 01:06:24.840
Just no, we haven't even gotten to the text yet.

1195
01:06:24.880 --> 01:06:25.639
And it's all.

1196
01:06:25.480 --> 01:06:33.599
About whom us. It's all about us. It's always about us.

1197
01:06:34.000 --> 01:06:37.639
Everything the church does it's about us. Even though we

1198
01:06:37.679 --> 01:06:41.480
say it's about God, it's really all about us. We

1199
01:06:41.519 --> 01:06:44.039
open up the Word of God not to see God

1200
01:06:44.119 --> 01:06:45.679
and hear what God has to say to the people

1201
01:06:45.760 --> 01:06:46.400
he was origination.

1202
01:06:46.599 --> 01:06:50.719
It's going to be about us, right do you think? Well,

1203
01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:52.840
let's see, is the sermon going to be about us?

1204
01:06:52.880 --> 01:06:54.599
What do you think? What do you think? Because remember

1205
01:06:54.800 --> 01:06:59.920
he's all about expository preaching, teaching the text right, not ted,

1206
01:07:00.920 --> 01:07:03.440
not watering it down, not just motivational speaking.

1207
01:07:05.920 --> 01:07:07.719
And as I was doing that, this last week.

1208
01:07:08.000 --> 01:07:10.400
One of the things that I just really began think

1209
01:07:10.440 --> 01:07:14.079
through was overall, like twenty twenty four, I would just

1210
01:07:14.119 --> 01:07:16.519
put that as like a really really good year, like

1211
01:07:16.559 --> 01:07:21.599
for me personally, but not without some adversity. And one

1212
01:07:21.599 --> 01:07:24.960
of the things that I just was reflecting upon is

1213
01:07:24.960 --> 01:07:25.440
that there were.

1214
01:07:25.360 --> 01:07:27.719
Some high highs and there were some low lows, maybe

1215
01:07:27.760 --> 01:07:28.280
for you too.

1216
01:07:28.960 --> 01:07:31.559
And here's the thing that the two had in common

1217
01:07:32.039 --> 01:07:36.119
is that I didn't see the highs coming and I

1218
01:07:36.119 --> 01:07:38.880
didn't necessarily anticipate.

1219
01:07:38.559 --> 01:07:40.239
The lows or didn't see them coming.

1220
01:07:40.840 --> 01:07:42.599
In fact, there were many things that happened, and I'm

1221
01:07:42.639 --> 01:07:43.960
just like, man, those are such blessings.

1222
01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:45.039
I don't know that I deserve it.

1223
01:07:45.199 --> 01:07:47.559
And then there are some bad things, some really discouraging

1224
01:07:47.599 --> 01:07:50.039
things that happened that I didn't see coming as well.

1225
01:07:50.320 --> 01:07:52.719
Now here's what it initially did to me. And I'm

1226
01:07:52.719 --> 01:07:55.159
just being confessional with you, and I'm trusting that some

1227
01:07:55.199 --> 01:07:57.239
of you will be able to relate to me. Because

1228
01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:01.320
of that, I found myself kind of gingerly inching into

1229
01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:04.079
this year like, well, you know, if that was true

1230
01:08:04.239 --> 01:08:06.239
in the past twelve months, and actually that was true

1231
01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:08.639
in twenty twenty three and twenty twenty two and twenty

1232
01:08:08.679 --> 01:08:11.480
twenty one, they're probably in twenty twenty five. There's going

1233
01:08:11.519 --> 01:08:15.280
to be some unexpected blessing, some high highs, and some

1234
01:08:15.440 --> 01:08:17.600
unexpected challenges, some low lows.

1235
01:08:17.800 --> 01:08:19.119
And so I found myself.

1236
01:08:18.840 --> 01:08:22.319
Kind of like posturing, like almost like red like trying

1237
01:08:22.319 --> 01:08:24.640
to like figure out how can I enter into the

1238
01:08:24.720 --> 01:08:28.399
year to try to maximize the good and minimize the

1239
01:08:28.439 --> 01:08:30.239
bad so I can net an overall good year at

1240
01:08:30.279 --> 01:08:33.239
the end of the year. And really what that spelling

1241
01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:38.199
is control, if I'm being honest, and a lack of

1242
01:08:38.319 --> 01:08:42.960
trust in the sovereignty of God, because there isn't anything

1243
01:08:43.000 --> 01:08:46.119
that really like, there's so many circumstances that are outside

1244
01:08:46.119 --> 01:08:48.359
of our control, both the good and the bad. And

1245
01:08:48.439 --> 01:08:50.920
really what I want to do is I don't want

1246
01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:55.279
to try to live my life in the absence of adversity.

1247
01:08:56.239 --> 01:08:58.520
I want to try to live my life so that

1248
01:08:58.560 --> 01:09:01.960
I can face adversity you well, And so I want

1249
01:09:01.960 --> 01:09:05.199
to be like surefooted and recognized that good or bad,

1250
01:09:05.199 --> 01:09:07.840
whatever may come, I'm going to trust, like the sovereignty

1251
01:09:07.880 --> 01:09:08.399
of God in that.

1252
01:09:08.600 --> 01:09:10.920
And it's an unfortunate truth, but.

1253
01:09:10.920 --> 01:09:13.840
It is true that when I look back at my life,

1254
01:09:14.199 --> 01:09:17.199
the times when I've grown the most spiritually and emotionally

1255
01:09:18.039 --> 01:09:21.159
and even in other ways, like physically, has been through adversity,

1256
01:09:21.199 --> 01:09:25.159
not around it. And so actually adversity, when you're surefooted,

1257
01:09:25.399 --> 01:09:27.840
can become a blessing. And so what I want to

1258
01:09:27.920 --> 01:09:31.159
encourage you with is just simply these truths right here,

1259
01:09:31.560 --> 01:09:33.199
is that God wants you to meditate.

1260
01:09:33.399 --> 01:09:34.560
Satan wants you to ruminate.

1261
01:09:35.119 --> 01:09:37.399
So God wants you to meditate on what it is

1262
01:09:37.399 --> 01:09:39.560
that you've been through and kind of where things are headed,

1263
01:09:39.760 --> 01:09:41.479
and Satan wants you to ruminate. Well, what's the difference

1264
01:09:41.520 --> 01:09:44.399
between the two. Well, one keeps you spinning on circumstances

1265
01:09:44.439 --> 01:09:48.560
you can't change, and the other one gets you reminded

1266
01:09:48.760 --> 01:09:53.000
of the truths of God's word and an unchanging God.

1267
01:09:53.640 --> 01:09:56.439
One turns the attention upon you, the other turns the

1268
01:09:56.479 --> 01:10:00.800
attention upon the only one ultimately powerful and sovereign enough

1269
01:10:00.800 --> 01:10:03.279
to bring about real change. So, at the beginning of

1270
01:10:03.279 --> 01:10:06.319
a brand new year, let these words of Saint Augustine

1271
01:10:06.520 --> 01:10:07.079
encourage you.

1272
01:10:07.319 --> 01:10:08.159
I love how he writes this.

1273
01:10:08.279 --> 01:10:11.760
He says, trust the past to God's mercy, because you

1274
01:10:11.760 --> 01:10:13.680
can't do anything to change it now it's in the past.

1275
01:10:14.439 --> 01:10:19.319
Trust the present to God's love that the present moment

1276
01:10:19.359 --> 01:10:21.640
that you are in, be fully present in that moment

1277
01:10:21.800 --> 01:10:24.079
and recognize the gift that it is, that it's God's

1278
01:10:24.520 --> 01:10:27.640
mercy and love and grace upon you, and then trust.

1279
01:10:27.279 --> 01:10:29.760
The future to God's providence.

1280
01:10:30.600 --> 01:10:33.359
And when it comes to the primary things that matter

1281
01:10:33.439 --> 01:10:36.039
the most in your life and in my life, I

1282
01:10:36.039 --> 01:10:38.560
would just kind of narrow it down to these four buckets.

1283
01:10:38.560 --> 01:10:40.560
If you're taking notes, you can jot these things down.

1284
01:10:40.960 --> 01:10:43.399
Your spiritual growth, like your walk with God. That should

1285
01:10:43.399 --> 01:10:47.000
be the most important thing. Number two, your relationships, everything

1286
01:10:47.000 --> 01:10:51.279
that would fit into that category, dating, marriage, kids, family.

1287
01:10:51.039 --> 01:10:52.359
Co workers, your community.

1288
01:10:52.880 --> 01:10:56.439
Number three your physical and emotional health. Those are important

1289
01:10:56.439 --> 01:10:58.479
things because we are holistic beings. And the number four

1290
01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:02.399
your financial health because as scripture says that wherever your

1291
01:11:02.399 --> 01:11:05.159
treasure is, your heart will follow. Those four things when

1292
01:11:05.199 --> 01:11:10.119
it comes to spiritual growth, relationships, physical and emotional health,

1293
01:11:10.560 --> 01:11:11.520
and your finances.

1294
01:11:11.880 --> 01:11:12.720
Now, I think that.

1295
01:11:12.840 --> 01:11:16.079
For many of us, if we're being honest in those

1296
01:11:16.119 --> 01:11:23.079
four categories, we would say that too many times our strategy.

1297
01:11:24.199 --> 01:11:26.960
Okay, now one second here, I'm going to go back

1298
01:11:27.000 --> 01:11:32.800
to the quote from a Augustine. What would he say here? Okay,

1299
01:11:32.800 --> 01:11:34.439
we're going to have to wrap this up. We're going

1300
01:11:34.479 --> 01:11:38.520
to go back here the quote from Augustine. Now this again,

1301
01:11:38.800 --> 01:11:41.079
I mean, I remember he's expository preaching. He doesn't want

1302
01:11:41.079 --> 01:11:42.520
it just to be a ted talk or sound like

1303
01:11:42.520 --> 01:11:45.520
a life coach and you draw your own conclusions. All right,

1304
01:11:46.039 --> 01:11:48.119
let's go from the quote from Augustine. I don't think

1305
01:11:48.119 --> 01:11:51.119
he gives a source for it.

1306
01:11:51.199 --> 01:11:54.199
The times when I've grown the most spiritually and emotionally

1307
01:11:55.079 --> 01:11:58.159
and even in other ways, like physically, has been through adversity,

1308
01:11:58.239 --> 01:12:02.560
not around it. And actually adversity when you're surefooted, can

1309
01:12:02.600 --> 01:12:03.479
become a blessing.

1310
01:12:04.119 --> 01:12:06.800
And so what I want to encourage you with is just.

1311
01:12:06.760 --> 01:12:09.439
Simply these truths right here, is that God wants you

1312
01:12:09.479 --> 01:12:10.199
to meditate.

1313
01:12:10.399 --> 01:12:11.560
Satan wants you to ruminate.

1314
01:12:12.119 --> 01:12:14.399
So God wants you to meditate on what it is

1315
01:12:14.439 --> 01:12:16.560
that you've been through and kind of where things are headed,

1316
01:12:16.800 --> 01:12:17.920
and Satan wants you to ruminate.

1317
01:12:17.920 --> 01:12:19.119
Well, what's the difference between the two.

1318
01:12:19.239 --> 01:12:22.960
Well, one keeps you spinning on circumstances you can't change,

1319
01:12:23.000 --> 01:12:27.079
and the other one gets you reminded of the truths

1320
01:12:27.119 --> 01:12:31.359
of God's word and an unchanging God. One turns the

1321
01:12:31.399 --> 01:12:34.640
attention upon you. The other turns the attention upon the

1322
01:12:34.680 --> 01:12:38.319
only one ultimately powerful and sovereign enough to bring about

1323
01:12:38.359 --> 01:12:41.359
real change. So at the beginning of a brand new year,

1324
01:12:41.520 --> 01:12:44.079
let these words of Saint Augustine encourage you.

1325
01:12:44.359 --> 01:12:45.239
I love how he writes this.

1326
01:12:45.279 --> 01:12:48.760
He says, trust the past to God's mercy, because you

1327
01:12:48.800 --> 01:12:49.960
can't do anything to change it now.

1328
01:12:50.000 --> 01:12:50.680
It's in the past.

1329
01:12:51.479 --> 01:12:56.319
Trust the present to God's love. That the present moment

1330
01:12:56.359 --> 01:12:58.640
that you are in, be fully present in that moment

1331
01:12:58.800 --> 01:13:01.079
and recognize the gift that it is, that it's God's

1332
01:13:01.520 --> 01:13:03.359
mercy and love and grace upon you.

1333
01:13:03.640 --> 01:13:06.800
And then trust the future to God's providence.

1334
01:13:07.640 --> 01:13:10.359
And when it comes to the primary things that matter

1335
01:13:10.439 --> 01:13:13.039
the most in your life and in my life, I

1336
01:13:13.039 --> 01:13:15.560
would just kind of narrow it down to these four buckets.

1337
01:13:15.560 --> 01:13:17.000
If you're taking notes, you can drop.

1338
01:13:16.800 --> 01:13:22.880
These, okay. So it appears that in this January fifth,

1339
01:13:22.920 --> 01:13:26.680
twenty twenty five sermon the pastor attribute a quote to Augustine.

1340
01:13:26.760 --> 01:13:29.039
Trust the past to the mercy of God, the present

1341
01:13:29.079 --> 01:13:33.239
to his love, and the future to his providence. There

1342
01:13:33.319 --> 01:13:36.520
is no known source in Augustine's works that contains the

1343
01:13:36.640 --> 01:13:40.119
exact quote. It's often cited online and devotionals are from

1344
01:13:40.199 --> 01:13:42.760
Christian speakers as a quote from Augustine, but it does

1345
01:13:42.800 --> 01:13:46.399
not appear in any verified Latin or English translation of

1346
01:13:46.439 --> 01:13:49.439
the Confession City of God on Grace and free Will,

1347
01:13:49.520 --> 01:13:53.039
letters homilies. It's possibly the quote as a modern summary

1348
01:13:53.159 --> 01:13:57.119
or paraphrase inspired by general themes in Augustine's writings, but

1349
01:13:57.159 --> 01:14:01.039
the wording itself doesn't appear to be found. Augustine did

1350
01:14:01.079 --> 01:14:04.479
write deeply about time, memory, and God's sovereignty and confessions.

1351
01:14:05.159 --> 01:14:08.399
He absolutely spoke of God's mercy, love, and providence, but

1352
01:14:08.520 --> 01:14:11.039
not in the tidy three part slogan format that the

1353
01:14:11.119 --> 01:14:13.920
quote presents. The quote is often used to bring comfort

1354
01:14:13.920 --> 01:14:17.039
and clarity, and while it while it may not be heretical,

1355
01:14:17.279 --> 01:14:20.399
it presents a cleaned up version of Augustine's complex theology

1356
01:14:20.520 --> 01:14:24.279
that lacks nuance. It also unintentionally suggests a therapeutic framing

1357
01:14:24.319 --> 01:14:26.880
of God mercy for your regret, love for you now,

1358
01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:30.199
providence for your plans. This is most likely a modern

1359
01:14:30.199 --> 01:14:41.399
devotional sentiment than patristic theology. That's so we have he

1360
01:14:42.640 --> 01:14:45.880
was wrong about amazing grace. He seems to be wrong

1361
01:14:45.960 --> 01:14:48.239
about this quote from Augustine. I said, he seems we

1362
01:14:48.319 --> 01:14:50.920
have to do more research. But all right, this comes across.

1363
01:14:51.000 --> 01:14:53.720
This is coming across like a motivational ted talk. That's

1364
01:14:53.720 --> 01:14:56.039
what is coming across as at some point that we're

1365
01:14:56.039 --> 01:14:57.800
going to get to Isaiah fifty in all of this.

1366
01:14:59.399 --> 01:15:02.720
So what happened all those things that was said in

1367
01:15:02.760 --> 01:15:07.479
the interview falling completely and utterly apart. There's a disconnect

1368
01:15:07.479 --> 01:15:10.680
between what churches claim, what churches say, and what they

1369
01:15:10.720 --> 01:15:14.600
actually do and what they actually preach. That's the point

1370
01:15:14.640 --> 01:15:16.640
I want you to get. That's what I want you

1371
01:15:16.760 --> 01:15:20.079
to see. Now we can't go any further, and I apologize.

1372
01:15:20.119 --> 01:15:22.800
We had a number of things go wrong in this episode.

1373
01:15:22.960 --> 01:15:26.760
You guys don't even realize it. My entire studio software

1374
01:15:26.800 --> 01:15:29.560
completely crash. I didn't mention that, meaning the entire recording

1375
01:15:29.640 --> 01:15:33.720
is gone. It's just gone. I'm hoping that the because

1376
01:15:33.760 --> 01:15:36.920
we're also broadcasting on Church one and Sermon Audio platform,

1377
01:15:37.239 --> 01:15:40.720
that I'll be able to take it from the Hopefully

1378
01:15:40.760 --> 01:15:44.239
the once I'm done, will it saves a copy of it,

1379
01:15:44.359 --> 01:15:45.960
so I'll be able to go and edit out the

1380
01:15:46.479 --> 01:15:49.199
pre show and edit out that and hopefully be able

1381
01:15:49.199 --> 01:15:51.000
to upload it from there, then download it from there,

1382
01:15:51.000 --> 01:15:53.399
and then upload it to all the other podcasting apps.

1383
01:15:53.720 --> 01:15:56.960
So yeah, the whole thing crash. I almost panicked, almost

1384
01:15:57.000 --> 01:16:00.880
started crying, but yeah, it completely crashed. The interview want

1385
01:16:00.960 --> 01:16:03.000
much longer than I wanted it to go. So the

1386
01:16:03.039 --> 01:16:06.039
goal was to look at the interview, to give the introduction,

1387
01:16:06.439 --> 01:16:10.960
give the interview, then go explore the website to look

1388
01:16:11.000 --> 01:16:13.319
at some does a website contradict what was said in

1389
01:16:13.359 --> 01:16:15.359
the interview? I think I start it does there's a

1390
01:16:15.399 --> 01:16:17.760
lot of issues there. Then go to the sermon and

1391
01:16:17.800 --> 01:16:21.560
then wrap it up. So next well, we'll summarize the interview,

1392
01:16:22.279 --> 01:16:26.239
We'll explore the website, then we'll take apart the sermon,

1393
01:16:26.279 --> 01:16:28.640
and then we'll try to get into the actual lessons

1394
01:16:28.640 --> 01:16:30.920
I want to be taught here. But this is all

1395
01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:34.680
about when words and methods don't match. This is about

1396
01:16:35.640 --> 01:16:38.920
someone who's in an interview about the church starving its

1397
01:16:38.920 --> 01:16:41.800
own people. And I think the church that it was

1398
01:16:41.840 --> 01:16:46.079
talking about was the one of the pastor who's being interviewed.

1399
01:16:47.640 --> 01:16:50.159
So and again, this is just I'm just this is

1400
01:16:50.319 --> 01:16:52.840
this is not about this particular church. This is just

1401
01:16:53.159 --> 01:16:55.439
the church. Only reason why I'm using this church is

1402
01:16:55.439 --> 01:16:58.199
because the interview led me to the church. I didn't

1403
01:16:58.239 --> 01:17:00.720
even know this church even existed on til the interview.

1404
01:17:00.760 --> 01:17:02.800
The interview led me there, and I'm like, oh, this

1405
01:17:02.880 --> 01:17:04.880
sounds like a good church because he said all that,

1406
01:17:05.000 --> 01:17:06.640
and then as soon as I looked at the church website,

1407
01:17:06.680 --> 01:17:09.159
I'm like, this is the typical mega church. He's supposedly

1408
01:17:09.199 --> 01:17:12.840
not the typical megachurch pastor. He but immediately in the

1409
01:17:12.479 --> 01:17:15.359
in the interview, you get you get the whole story

1410
01:17:15.399 --> 01:17:20.640
about amazing grace. Wrong looked. And then already he gives

1411
01:17:20.640 --> 01:17:22.920
a quote from Augustin. As soon as I heard the quote,

1412
01:17:22.920 --> 01:17:32.239
I'm like, that doesn't sound like Augustin at all. Yeah,

1413
01:17:32.279 --> 01:17:34.960
but we're not gonna feed people chicken nuggets. No, no, no, no, no,

1414
01:17:34.960 --> 01:17:38.439
we're gonna give them meat. We're gonna I guess you're

1415
01:17:38.439 --> 01:17:42.479
gonna give him fraudulent historical information. So we're already not

1416
01:17:42.600 --> 01:17:45.159
doing so well and it already sounding like a Ted talk.

1417
01:17:45.279 --> 01:17:48.199
Oh and and uh, it's all about me. But somehow

1418
01:17:49.039 --> 01:17:51.920
Isaiah fifty's gonna come into play. Yeah, well, we're gonna

1419
01:17:51.960 --> 01:17:54.399
definitely see how that goes. All right until next time,

1420
01:17:56.479 --> 01:17:59.399
just well, go look at the website. The church website,

1421
01:17:59.520 --> 01:18:01.640
not mine, not for me, to by no means not

1422
01:18:01.720 --> 01:18:07.239
for me. It's TPCC dot org TPCC dot org. Hey,

1423
01:18:07.399 --> 01:18:09.399
you may want to give them a little bit of money.

1424
01:18:09.479 --> 01:18:11.640
You may want to donate while you're there, because you know,

1425
01:18:12.239 --> 01:18:17.079
it takes twenty five million dollars to operate their church.

1426
01:18:17.399 --> 01:18:19.760
They only brought in thirty million, so they got about

1427
01:18:19.760 --> 01:18:23.279
a four million dollar. You know, they're they're doing pretty good.

1428
01:18:23.279 --> 01:18:26.159
They got a four million dollars in reserve. Go ahead

1429
01:18:26.159 --> 01:18:28.079
and give them a little bit more because they probably

1430
01:18:28.079 --> 01:18:30.119
need a little bit more, because you know, that's the

1431
01:18:30.199 --> 01:18:32.520
thing that gets brings in twenty five million dollars. We

1432
01:18:32.640 --> 01:18:35.600
will bring in twenty five million dollars. Are you know

1433
01:18:35.920 --> 01:18:39.960
pastors who give completely fraudulent historical information a misattributed quote

1434
01:18:40.000 --> 01:18:43.079
to Augustine and it's what's starting to sound like a

1435
01:18:43.119 --> 01:18:45.920
life coach and a ted talk. But hey, hey, that

1436
01:18:45.960 --> 01:18:51.039
brings in twenty five million dollars. So go give them

1437
01:18:51.039 --> 01:18:52.560
some more money. They probably need it. I mean it,

1438
01:18:52.600 --> 01:18:55.800
go give them, go give them a million dollars and

1439
01:18:55.840 --> 01:18:59.520
then you can get some more good teaching from them.

1440
01:18:59.720 --> 01:19:01.800
Ye Am, I a little sarcastic. I do get a

1441
01:19:01.800 --> 01:19:05.640
little sarcastic, But I'm just frustrated that the interview either

1442
01:19:05.640 --> 01:19:09.479
really thought whoa, this sounds good up till part of

1443
01:19:09.479 --> 01:19:12.920
the interview started falling apart. But there you go. Thanks

1444
01:19:12.920 --> 01:19:13.920
for listening, God bless