The Church, Sin, and AI

0:02 Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is the Theology Central podcast, making Theology Central. Conspicuous, conspicuous, conspicuous, conspicuous. Right, that's how you say the word right. Well, if you listen to my last episode, you heard me read the wrong and the read the word wrong incorrectly multiple times. You heard me read it incorrectly. You heard me read it wrong and correctly. You heard you heard. See. I can't even speak correctly. I can't sometimes say words correctly conspicuous. I said it some other weird way. I just misspoke right there.

0:45 Yeah? Have you ever misspoke? Have you ever read a word incorrectly? Have you ever mispronounced a word? Have you ever made any mistakes in communicating? You felled in your punctuation? You did not you didn't use subject for verse was in the subject, verb, was not in agreement? You used a double negative, You didn't punctuate correctly. Do you ever make any mistakes in your speaking, in your writing, in your communicating? Do you make any mistakes at all in that area? Okay? Maybe maybe you're really good in that area? Okay? Are there any other areas in your life where you just mess up? You just make mistakes any other areas in your life, I think you're going to have to acknowledge. Yeah, I mess up here, I kind of mess up here.

1:34 I've done this, I've gotten this wrong. I made this assumption and I was wrong, and I got this. We can all say we get things wrong, and that's just looking at life from a very human perspective. What happens when we look at our lives. From a well, I don't know, a biblical perspective, a philological perspective, from the perspective of God's law, Well, saying the word conspicuous correctly or incorrectly, speaking correctly or incorrectly. Will be At that point, that's not even an issue. The minute we look at our lives and light of God's law and God's standard, oh, those other problems disappear because we realize we have a bigger problem.

2:26 And that problem, well, we're going. To discuss it well right after I say good afternoon everyone. It is Friday, February twenty first, twenty twenty five. It is currently four forty eight pm Central time, and I'm coming to you live from the Theology Central Studio located right here in Abilene, Texas, and US I mean, I say this not all the time. I should say it all the time, but I mention it frequently that I'm just a degenerate with a microphone. I'm a center with a microphone trying to figure out the Christian life. But for me, I kind of operate with a very specific belief, a foundational belief that I think is missing from much of Christianity from a practical perspective. And I'm going to challenge it today. I'm going to spend this afternoon going into early evening and I'm going to challenge this. And I'm challenge challenging this on this basic concept that Hey, just like we get all kinds of things wrong from a human perspective, we get everything wrong from a divine perspective, right, So.

3:39 I hope that we can. All hopefully come to a better understanding of something because I think it's very, very important. So how did this all start? Well? I was listening to the Bob Jones Chapel. Service on the sermon's two point zero app and within that sermon, the pastor old everyone there at Bob Jones University that in his thirty five years of ministry he has never seen a church that obeys First Timothy chapter five versus nineteen through twenty. He has never seen one church that obeys One Timothy five nineteen through twenty.

4:21 That passage reads again. Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses them that sin rebuke them before all that others. Also may fear. According to this speaker at Bob Jones University, he has never seen a church and thirty five years of ministry that obeys that correctly. And I'm like, wow, that's that's pretty significant. So then I thought, well, let's consider First Timothy chapter five seventeen through twenty five. I'll utilize artificial intelligence, So asked artificial intelligence, looking throughout all of church history all the way into the modern church, how many of these things in One Timothy five seventeen through twenty five do churches struggle with? Do they fell at do they mess up and kind of rank them that kind of moderately mess up, or this is really insignificant, or there's a high problem in churches.

5:23 And what we found is that in every single one of these. Areas AI was basically the church has falled over and over and over again throughout chur church history all the way into the modern era. Now that means the Church at large, time and time again is disobeying clear scripture found right here in the Bible. Now, on one end, we shouldn't be shocked by that, because the Church is made up of what sinners, and because sinners sin, well, the Church sins because that's what we do. But there is a part of Christianity that we don't really want to acknowledge that. We acknowledge it. We acknowledge the sinfulness of Christians. We acknowledge that Christians aren't perfect theoretically, but in a practical way we almost preach a message that is almost and it's antithetical to that.

6:11 It's completely opposite of that, because the Church's message. Over and over and over and over and over and over. Again is when you become saved, you become a new creature. All things are passed away, all things have become new. That has preached as. Being true practically that basically you've been set free. Now you can obey God, you can say no toe sin. You can do this, you can do that, you can do this, you can do this, you can do that. You can do it. Now. They may throw in just a little bit in the small print and say, well, you can't do it perfectly, But the implication is that basically you can be close to perfect, and you should. Your life should just be marked by obedience, obedience, obedience, obedience, obedience, And the only time something really becomes an issue is is if you commit a big sin. Because there's a lot of sin that nobody really wants to talk about, all right, So what I want to do is.

7:03 Talk about this. The Church's whole issue here when it comes to sin. I don't think the Church has a good understanding of sin, and I don't think it handles it from a practical point of view. So after listening to that sermon from Bob Jones University, doing a broadcast about One Timothy chapter five, seventeen through twenty five, mispronouncing conspicuous over and over and over and over again. Right after doing all of. That, I still couldn't stop thinking about not my speaking of you, saying conspicuous incorrectly. But I thought that was a great illustration, just as I messed up there, just as I messed up in my intro not saying things completely grammatically correct saying things maybe in a way that's not.

7:50 I could ref I could formulate it a little different, I could try to make it a little perfect, but there's still going to be some error, and it's still not going to be perfect. All of that simply is used as an illustration to demonstrate just how flawed we are in so many ways. Nobody is perfect. We on one hand, we will say that, but on the other hand, I think the church literally does not practically operate from that perspective. So and even in the. Sermon, I mean, if the sermon is saying that thirty five years, no church follows that. There's the things the scripture says about divorce and marriage and remarriage, and well, who's then classified as an adulterer? Well, then how come they're not actually treated as adulterers in the church. And we can go on and on and on. I remember Bible College, I can remember a Bible institute where I basically was told, Hey, go to this passage about marriage divorce.

8:44 You just will rip it out of your Bible. Because even though we may believe this in a theoretical way, nobody practices it in the church. Or you basically would empty out half of your church because your church is going to be made up of about I don't know, about fifty percent of the people are going to have been married, divorced, and remarried. And if you go with a certain understanding here, then those people are living in adult tree. But you're not going to treat them as they're living in adult tree. You're still going to serve them the Lord's Supper. They're still going to be able to do this. There's not going to be any church discipline when they're literally living in adult tree Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. But you're not going to do anything about it. And it's like, Okay, well what does that mean? Well, I think it means that sin really complicates matters.

9:24 And I think the church are you ready for this? I think the church tends to operate from a pragmatic approach, not a philological approach. Oh, I know everyone's going to disagree. I know everyone's going to disagree. So, but there's what happened. After listening to the Bob Jones University, struggling with this, struggling with first Timothy five, struggling with how to say conspicuous, all of those, all of those struggles, me and AI got into a heartfelt conversation. Okay, maybe not so heartfelt, but we got into a conversation. And so what I'm going to do is share the conversation I had with Ai. You can tell me whether you agree or disagree, But basically I had artificial intelligence, artificial intelligence, and I basically approached it this way, Hey, artificial intelligence. Look at how the church handles basically sin how it does things. And then you tell me is this logical? Is it philological?

10:23 Is it biblical? What is going on in the church? And AI basically said, well, the church operates pragmatically, not philologically. AI was just very emphatic, like, the church doesn't operate philologically, it operates an opposition to the very theology that it teaches. And I'm like, well, that's kind of offensive. Ai, Okay, come on now. And then AI said, well, I can say conspicuous correctly and you can't, so what do you know? And then I'm like, okay, okay, okay, you're right right. It didn't actually say that, but are you ready. So here's one of the things I said to AI as we were kind of easing into this conversation in trying to kind of begin. To discuss this. I said, all right, here's the deal. AI.

11:06 I struggle with how the church deals with sin within the congregation and with those in leadership. The absolute, theiological and biblical reality of everyone in the church, from the member to the leader, is everyone is perpetually in sin. Twenty four seven, three sixty five. That's how I approached AI. I was like, look, I have a problem here. The church operates and deals with sin with basically ignoring this reality. And here's the foundational principle. I want you to get down.

11:47 Here's the foundational principle. I believe everything that the church does, everything the church teaches, must arise, must be built on this basic philological foundation. Everyone in the church, everyone in the pew, everyone in the classroom, everyone everywhere in the church, behind the pulpit, behind the piano. I don't care what I don't care what is going in the sound booth, and it doesn't matter anywhere in the church. Every single person in the church, from the one preaching, to the one teaching, to the. One listening, to the one singing, to the one leading to the.

12:29 One following, everyone is perpetually in sin. Twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. Three hundred and sixty five days a year. We are perpetually in sin twenty four seven, three sixty five. There is no way to get around that. It is a fact. It is a fact. Now many will immediately argue with me, say no, no, no, no, yes, yes yes. See. The problem is if you denying that you're perpetually in sin, then that just shows me that the Church is so biblically illiterate that. We don't even understand what sin is. If we say sin, it is any lack of conformity to God's standard, whether in thought, whether in word, whether in deed, whether in desire internally or externally, then I'm sorry.

13:21 You're perpetually in a. State of sin. You're gonna have to redefine what sin is. But God says, be holy as He is holy. There's the command, there's the standard. You never will be holy as God is holy. Therefore you're in a perpetual state of sin. He says love. The Bible says love God with all y'all heart, mind, body, and soul. You never do it. You're in perpetual state of sin. Love your neighbor, love your enemy, turn the other cheek, resist not evil, Do all things without complaining and grumbling. I can go on and meditate on God's word day and night, pray without seizing, rejoicing every more. I can go for command to command to command. Put others before yourself, Be humble, do not be proud, on and on script after scripture, No, no bitterness. Forgive others as crisis forgiving you love this, I mean, I can just scripture after scripture to scripture. You do not follow them. You're in a perpetual state of disobedience. Every single person in the church is. This is a foundational principle.

14:17 Everyone in the church is. So I handed my my basically, my hypotheses, my my concern to the church to Ai. AI says this, this is a crucial point and it expresses a major inconsistency in how churches deal with sin and leadership versus the congregation. If everyone in the church is in a state of perpetual sin, which is the biblical and philological reality. Oh did you hear that?

14:59 Ai says, It is is a biblical and philological reality that everyone is in perpetual sin. I'm like, I know that to be the case, right, This is what Ai goes on to say. Then, if that is true, which it is, how do you determine when church discipline rebuke or removal is appropriate if everyone is in perpetual sin, Well we discipline. Wait wait now now we rebuke, Now we remove, Now we do this. Wait, everyone is in perpetual sin. So how do you then decide? Wait? Wait, wait wait wait now now you've been in perpetual sin. You've been in this church for five years. You've been in perpetual sin twenty four seven three.

15:40 Sixty five for five years. But now but now you've done it. So AI says that that this is not me, this is AI. It says the inconsistency in church discipline. All right, here, this is what AI. This is what AI states about the church. Sin is universal, discipline is selective. Mh oh man.

16:20 So AI is the church is inconsistent because here's how the church operates. Sin is universal, but discipline is selective. Okay, well what makes it selective? Here's what AI goes on to say. Every pastor. And every single church member sins consistently. Yet some sins result in discipline while the majority are ignored. Now that's a fact. Oh, I'm gonna I'm gonna make some people very angry here, I'm getting ready to tick off some people. All right, but but.

17:00 But we can't discuss this without stepping up. Look, I'm gonna step on my toes. I'm gonna step on your toes. Let's just be honest with this, Okay. So you can be in a church, you have some people in your church. In fact, in any cases, the church, your church is made up of a lot of people who were married, got divorced, and got remarrieds. Most churches have a lot of people like that, right, a lot of people. Some churches may have fifty percent of their congregation or in that place, some may have less, some may have more. Now, in some of those cases, even if you allow for even if you believe what some. Call the exception clause, Okay, all right, you got divorce, but was it for this reason? Yeah, okay, well then it's okay. And then they so some people will say there's an exception clause allowing for divorce. And then some people will say the exception clause also allows not just the divorce, for you to get remarried. Now, there are some who will believe it allowing it for divorce. But then you have to remain single. Look, there's no agreement in Christianity about it. I know we could go all day on how this works, all right, But even for those who believe there's an exception clause, almost inevitably you're still going to have people in church unless Now sometimes they will just try to tell you that's the way it was, and I feel like it meets the exception clause. But in most cases, you have people in your church who don't meet the exception clause for a divorce and for remarriage, meaning then according to the Bible, they are living in adultery. Now, if you go to the Catholicism, Catholicism says they have to remain celibate. Okay, well, nobody in the Protestant world's

18:33 going to follow that, all right. They're not going to remain celibate. They're going to engage in physical intimacy, meaning every single time they do that, they're committing adultery. Now they're in the church, they receive the Lord's Supper, they do this, they do that, they do this, they do that, they do this, they do all kinds of things. Some churches, they may even be in positions of leadership. Nobody says a word. Nobody cares. Everybody's like, well, what are they supposed to do? Make a million and may a million excuses. Here comes someone else. They walk into the church and they confess to everyone, Look, I have physical desires and physical attraction of someone of the same sex. I am a homosexual, I am a lesbian. I struggle with that.

19:23 I have no desire for anyone of the opposite sex. Immediately people like ooh. First of all, they may immediately begin to call their their salvation into question. How you can't have these opposite the same sex desires and be safe. You're probably not even saved. Immediately, Now, you may have some teenagers in the back of the church who are filled with lust with someone of the opposite sex. They're good to go. But if someone has desires for someone of the same sex, they're finished, they're done, they're not even saved. And immediately people like, okay, well, you may have that desire, you may do it, but you can't do this, and you can't do this, and you can't do this, and if you do this, you're gonna be e You're. Gonna be excommunicated. We can't even let you be a. In the church, and it's just going to be a million things going after that person while those other blatant sins in the church, those people are literally living in adultery.

20:10 That's okay. Now, if anyone else in the church commits adultery, they'll be excommunicator. Like, wait a minute, you're gonna excommunicate me for committing adultery. Well, you got three you got five families in the church where they're divorced that were married, divorced and remarried, and at least maybe three of them, even if you go with the exception clause, they're living in adultery. So this person gets excommunicated for adultery. Well, you got three three marriages where they're living in adultery. How did you choose to get rid of this one? And the other ones are good to go? Well the other things. And some people say, well, this happened before they they were saved. Well it may have happened before they were saved, but they're still in an adulterous. Relationship if you even if you accept the. Exception clause in some cases, well, and it becomes all this kind of very selective thing. So some sins result in discipline, Some sins result in open rebuke and maybe people being shunned, but others shit, it's okay. Ai says, what makes one sin worthy of rebuke and another one to be overlooked?

21:21 Often? Are you ready? Here's what Ai accuses the church of. In most cases, the answer is that the church is operating from church culture bias, public exposure, not scripture. They're operating not based anything on scripture. Well, they may be trying to find a verse and use it. They may be trying to weaponize the scripture the scriptures to go after certain people, but they're not going to turn it on them or turning on them. It's still very selective. And what is it based off of your own personal bias? You don't like that sin, you hate that sin, so we're gonna go after that. Well this one, well, you know, I mean, we got we can't, we got we gotta work around this one. It's just culture. Sometimes it's a cultural thing.

22:10 It's not a scriptural thing. So sin is universal, but discipline in the church is selective. Ai goes on to say churches apply discipline inconsistently. A church might remove a pastor for a moral failure, but will one thousand percent ignored, pride, greed, or arrogance, sins that are just as serious. A pastor can commit five thousand sins, but there's a few that that's it. That's the end. Get the rocks, get the nails, get the hammers. We're gonna have a stoning, a crucifixion. Oh, get the get the wood and the torches, and we're gonna burn that.

22:51 We're gonna hang them, burn them, crucify them. We're gonna we're gonna use everything we can't because that's too far. Well, wait a minute, what about this sin and that? Well, those sins don't matter, or we just excuse it, We don't even we don't even want to refer to it as a sin. Ai goes on to say congregation members are sometimes held to a different standard than leadership. Some sins, sexual and morality, financial scandal brings swift judgment, while others gossip, favoritism, power abuse are tolerated. And definitely so.

23:35 Ai says, Look, sin is universal, church discipline is selective, and that church is applied discipline in an inconsistent way. That's Ai saying, you're just inconsistent. Now I know what we're going to be like no, we're not. I just doesn't. But AI's looking at it from a purely like a logical perspective, like this happens, but this doesn't happen. And I've just given you examples all the time. I can give you a hundred examples where that happens. Even if you go back to Mark Driscoll and all of his issues at mars Hill, all the things that came out right even when they were going to church discipline him, and then he supposedly heard from God and that it was they were setting a trap. So he left and he basically didn't go through the process and then went to Arizona and started another church. Okay, but even if I remember correctly, mars Hill puts put out a letter and they accuse Mark Driscoll of many things, and many of those things are listed right there in one Timothy chapter three that he violated. But then what did they say, Well, but we don't feel like he completely disqualified himself from ministry, Well because he didn't commit certain If he would have committed certain sins, oh, then he'd have been done. But he committed many of the sins listed, and I cannot now other people will say no, he's disqualified.

24:45 Others will say he's not disqualified. And we don't even agree on who's disqualified or not disqualified or what makes one disqualified, because once again, why if there's no agreement on any of this, you know what that seems to say, then who's really making the final determination? Don't tell me scripture. You're making the final determination based on your perspective. And that's why. Some sins in church get treated way different than others. And then we'll try to use, well, the scriptures make this sin more serious than this sin. You can try to play that game and create your scale of which one's more serious than the other. But by all means, go ahead and do that. I just know this. God says, be holy. None of you are holy, So you're in a perpetual state of sin. If you want to start then measuring which sin is greater, which sin is less, and a system where everyone is in a perpetual state of sin. Okay, if you want to try to create which sins are worse and which sins are less, and a system that says if you violate one point of the law, you're guilty of all the law, meaning we're all perpetual lawbreakers of all the law, because we all are always breaking at least one point of the law. Well, then I don't know how you measure which one is worse and which one is not. So Ai says sin is universal, but discipline is selective. Churches apply discipline inconsistency consistently.

26:07 And then AI says repentance versus perpetual sin. If every Christian is in a constant state of sin, what does it mean to say an elder persist in sin and one Timothy five twenty. Now AI is relying on a different translation we talked about. The King James doesn't say. Persistent sin, but I think most people believe it refers to persisting in sin. Well, so to persist in sin, Hey, you're persisting in that sin. But we're all persisting in some sin. Because let me state it this way. You can say, well, you're persisting in that sin, and they could turn around and say, but you're persisting in sin. We're all persisting in some sin. So how can you then get mad at me for persisting and this sin?

26:49 If you're persisting in sin, we're all persisting in sin. You just don't like the sin I'm persisting in but maybe I don't like the sin you're persisting in. How do we even define that? So AI even brings up does persistent mean habitual, unrepentant sinn? Then AI asked this question, but if we never truly stop sinning, isn't every Christian persisting in some way? Even AI calls us out on this. So then this is what AI says. Churches define persisting in sin pragmatically, usually by what becomes public, rather than by consistent philological reasoning.

27:38 Oh you can, you're that sin. You're persisting in sin. Something has to be done. But we're not going to really talk about how everyone in the congregation persist in sin. It's almost like, hey, anyone here without sin pick up the rock? And so what everyone say, Well, I may not be perfect, but I'm not committing that sin. I mean, I don't do that. But you're still picking up the rock with sin in your life. I'm picking up the rock with sin in my life. So then AI, so that was all under one major heading, the inconsistency in church discipline. According to AI, sin is universal, but discipline is selective. Churches apply discipline inconsistently and then repentance versus perpetual sin. AI leaves us there just going like man, the church is a mess.

28:27 Here. Then AI says, well, how should churches handle sin and a lot of universal depravity? This is what AI says, Number one, recognize the reality of ongoing sin in everyone. If we start with the premise that every leader and member is sinful all the time, then discipline shouldn't be based on some false expectation of some type of moral perfection. Like we got to start right there. Everyone is in sin all the time. So it can't be like, well, you didn't reach this standard. You didn't because nobody reaches the standard. What is the standard? Be holy as God is holy, Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. Love God with all your heart, mind, body, And so I can go on and on and you're not gonna do it. Nobody's going to do that. So we get whatever we're whatever we're going to do with supposedly discipline, are rebuking, are correcting.

29:17 It must start with the premise as well, we're all messed up. Now. AI does bring up this distinguishing between ongoing sin and disqualifying sin. Now, I was kind of fascinated that Ai would use this word but it says, since all sin continues, we need a clear biblical framework from when sin disqualifies. Someonet Paul's qualifications for elders one Timothy three Titus one focuses on overall character rather than sin lessness. So AI's like, okay, well, even the scriptures that are used for qualified, well they're not talking about sinlessness, So that means you can be sinful, you can commit sin, but yet you can meet the qualification.

30:10 It's just speaking about the overall character. So the overall character has to be it's not going to be sin less, so there's going to be sin, but it's got to reach something like now, it becomes very subjective. AI goes on to say, avoid favoritism and discipline. One Timothy five twenty one warns against prejudging or showing partiality, but churches often handle discipline based on power and influence or church politics. If a small group leader sins, they may be removed. If a senior pastor sins in the same way, they may be they may quietly resign. So in other words, there's sometimes favoritism, partiality, and there's different ways that it is handled. AI goes on to say, rebuke sin, but do so knowing every single one is guilty. Publicly rebuked one Timothy five point twenty should not be about humiliating someone, but warning the church of serious issues. But if we only rebuke leaders while tolerating major sins and the congregation, we create hypocrisy. Hey, we're gonna go after him because he committed this sin. Now, everyone in the congregation who's all met at this guy, Well, we're not going to talk about your sins.

31:26 I can't. Again, it kind of comes down to, hey, those of you without sin cast the first stone. So this is what Ai says to me. Now, AI now kind of starts talking to me directly, and it says this, you are recognizing a deep tension in church practice. If sin is inescapable and constant, then church discipline should not function as if some people are sinless while others are guilty, And said discipline should be consistent, applied to all, not just when it's convenient. Okay, well, nobody's going to do that. If it's applied to all. In a consistent basis, they're not going to be anybody left right philologically sound acknowledging that all sin is ongoing, but some sins break trust humble, recognizing that every leader and church member needs grace. So then AI asked me some questions here. But then I wanted to go to because it uses the word disqualifying. So I wanted to go back to AI.

32:25 And kind of mention this. So I said to AI, the idea of disqualifying seems problematic from a logical perspective. The list of qualifications. Never says the one who fails in one of these is disqualified. Also, does anyone ever meet all these qualifications internally and externally since everyone is in perpetual sin. Also, we do have a test, we do have a text about restoring. We don't have any explaining or even listing disqualification and how it works. So I kind of presented a bunch of questions and comments to Ai. AI said, well, you're raising an important logical and theological issue. If sin is constant, no one meets the qualifications perfectly, how can we say someone is disqualified for ministry? And if restoration is mentioned in scripture Galatian six to one, but formal disqualification is not fully explained, our church is mishandling the concept because we do have a scripture that specifically speaks of restoration Galatian six. We don't have any that clearly outlines well, if you do this, you're disqualified.

33:40 Now, so what people do? They do crazy things? Well, look at David. David messed up and he wasn't allowed to build the temple. And what did God say, Hey, you're not going to build a temple your son. Well, I've got something better for you. I'm gonna set my entire dividic covenant upon you with you. Wait a minute, wait, da, it was disqualified from building the temple. Yeah, and the one who built the temple was involved in far more sexual sin than David ever. Was, So that doesn't even make any sense. And even though Debbie committed that's great sin, God still established the dividic covenant with him. So so the whole thing becomes just convoluted. When when wait, but people have to find scriptures to somehow.

34:26 Well, well, Moses didn't go. You had to go into the promised life. See that proves it. Well, so you're going to take a descriptive pass and make it prescriptive, but you don't even really know how to be prescriptive. What are you going to say? People don't get to go to heaven. That don't get to move to Texas because this is the promised life, Like, what does that even mean? So this is what AI says. The Bible lists qualifications but never explicitly states disqualification. The standard passages on elder qualifications of one, Timothy three one through seven, and Titus one five nine. These lists describe positive characteristics rather than a set of criteria for disqualification. Nowhere does it say if an elder fells in any of these.

35:11 He is disqualified. Yet churches often use these lists negatively, as if they are automatic disqualifications rather than a standard to strive for. Then AI asked me this question. Does elders? Does any elder ever fully meet these standards? That's a good question, So AI then says, remember, an elder is supposed to be blameless above reproach, not quarrelsome self controlled in all things. It just pulled those things blameless above, reproach, not quarrelsome self controlled. AI then says, logically, no one qualifies, because all humans fail in these areas daily.

35:53 If we acknowledge that every Christian sins constantly, then either all are disqualified, which is impossible because there would be no one could ever be a pastor or qualification must mean something other than moral perfection. So then immediately once you set that up, okay, well you don't have to be perfect, all right, Well, then that means there is a level of imperfection which people can meet and still be qualified. Now, if that's the case, then obviously there's a level of imperfection that people can meet within the congregation without ever having to worry about discipline. So how much imperfection can be in the congregation, how much imperfection can be behind the pulpit, and no one then gets church disciplined or rebuked or anything like that happens, Well, then guess what. Now it becomes subjective and it becomes up to I guess whatever standard you want to impose.

36:51 AI goes on to ask does persisting and send meaning mean anything if everyone sends constantly? I asked the question, does persisting in sin mean anything if everyone sins constantly? One Timothy five point twenty says, as for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. But if everyone sins constantly, then every elder persist in sin at least in some way, and then this is what AI says. Churches tend to define persisting in sin pragmatically rather than biblically. If sin is exposed, it may be called persistent. If sin remains hidden or tolerated pride, greed, gossip, unforgiveness, bitterness, it may not be seen as persistent. This creates an arbitrary standard where some sins count as disqualifying and others are ignored. That's the second or third time that AI is basically said, it's all pragmat it's just a pragmatic approach.

38:02 It's arbitrary, it's subjective. AI goes on to say. Restoration is mentioned, but disqualification is not fully explained. Galatian six Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you, who are spiritual, should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. This passage implies that restoration should. Be the goal, not immediate disqualification, but churches often operate as if number one some sins permanently disqualify a pastor number two others can be forgiven if they don't cause public scandal. Three, the restoration process is unclear, if even practice at all. So it says when most church is.

38:47 What it comes down to is, well, if you do this, you're done. Others could be forgiven. Well if it does, if other people don't know about it, or three, the restoration process not is not even really clear and in many cases it's not even really practiced. So AI says, if restoration is biblical, but permanent disqualification is never explicitly explicitly stated, then churches may be handling this incorrectly. We have a clear text on restoration, we don't have any clarity on disqualification. But churches just assume this is the way it is because we are bringing human morality, human reasoning, human logic that is very subjective and pragmatic, our own biases, our own preferences to.

39:31 This and this, it doesn't matter. We're not even This is not even just about pastors. This is about the entire church and how we deal with sin within the church. And let me tell you there is sin in every church twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, three hundred and sixty five days a year. If you think any differently than you do not understand sin. That's why we started asserted so strongly with that concept that we. All are messing up. So then Ai jumps to church history and human and the human factor. This is what again, listen, AI continues to return to this. Historically, churches have used pragmatic rather than biblical reasoning for disqualification. So once again, when it comes to the church and sin, AI says, now this is like number three or number four. Churches think pragmatically.

40:21 They do not think biblically or piologically. Some sins. Sex, financial scandal will result in removal, while others anger favoritism, arrogance, no no problem. In some cases, powerful pastors are protected while others are removed for lesser offenses. This suggests that the disqualification is often based on church politics, public perception, are cultural expectation rather than an objective biblical framework. So I said, okay, AI, talk to me here, how do we understand this?

41:07 This is what AI says. We need or there is a need for rethinking at least disqualification. So AI says that what I have brought up my concerns is absolutely valid. Here's what AI says. This is how it summarizes it. The Bible gives qualifications, but it never says failing in one area permanently disqualifies someone. Number two if one, if no one meets the qualifications perfectly, then the concept of disqualification needs serious stillological examination. No one meets the qualifications. Even when you hear pastors preach on the qualifications that it will say, well, no one will do these perfectly. I mean, this is what you're supposed to be striving to do. It's not perfection. It's just like this, and they will they will frame it in a way there that tries to make it like somewhat manageable, like you can do it, because you've got to try to make it manageable, because no one can. But then you're already offering that there is no one's going to do these perfectly, and that doesn't disqualify you. But if you don't do them, if you're fail and won in a certain way, then you are disqualified. Wait, so I can be breaking them all to some level and that's okay, But if I break one to a certain level, then I'm disqualified. It becomes very subjective. Same thing happens in the congregation.

42:29 People committing sins and sin sin say oh oh oh, we got a problem. Now we got to do something. Wait a minute, that person's been living in sin twenty four to seven three sixty five since they've been here. Yep, But now they're in perfection, reached the level of imperfection that we cannot tolerate. But what about their imperfection over here? How about the people who sit across the pew from them? What about the well that's different? Well, what about that that's different? Well what about well that's different? Okay, Well, it must be. Nice that we get to just arbitrary decide. Right. So AI goes on to say, again, I'm going back through these. The Bible gives qualifications, but it never says failing in one area permanently qualifies another. AI goes on to say, if no one meets the qualifications perfectly, then the concept of disqualification needs serious theological examination.

43:22 Next. Restoration is explicitly mentioned in scripture, but no detailed disqualification process is given. Next. Churches often apply disqualification arbitrarily, influenced by culture, political factors, rather than biblical consistency. All right, So then AI asked me about I don't know ten questions here, and I'm like, well, hang on, And so then it basically asked me, well, what do you think, and so I said, basically, AI. Was wanting my input. It was wanting my input. So I said, I think the church operates pragmatically as if people can obey the law and be basically perfect or very close. This leads to problems across the board.

44:03 So my issue is, let's not even get into disqualification. No disqualification, church discipline, no discipline. I think the problem is the church operates pragmatically, not theologically, not theoretically, but pragmatically on this basis you're a Christian, you can basically be perfect, you can obey the law, you can say yes to God, you can say noticein that's the way it's supposed to work. So AI said, that's a powerful critique, and I think you're right. Many churches functionally operate under the assumption that people can keep the law or at least get close. This creates serious problems and multiple areas of church life, especially in how sin, leadership, and discipline are handled.

44:54 So then AI decides just to start. It just goes okay. At that point, I don't even ask it another question. AI just keeps going. Now, now AI's got a lot to say. So AI says, Number one, the church often operates as if near perfection is possible, And then it says philological reality, no one keeps the law perfectly. Even the most devoted, devout Christian sins constantly and thought word and deed. That's what AI says. That's not me. AI says, Look, we all sin constantly and thought word indeed. Then AI says practical church expectation, leaders and members are often held to an unstated but implied standard of near perfection.

45:42 AI that says, what is the result. Churches function as if people should be able to meet all biblical standards, which leads to confusion, ready for it and hypocrisy because we've got to pretend to be something we are not. And it leads to confusion to those who keep looking around, going, well, I know I'm a sinner, Am I the only one? I know? I struggle with this. I know I struggle with this, and I know that they struggle. I know that their marriage is in trouble, and I know he has a problem with porn, and I know those two teenagers are probably sleeping together. And I know this, and I know that, and I know this, and sh.

46:25 No, no, no, no, no no no, we can all do it. We've been given the power of God. We can all obey the law. So just pretend that we all are. But that person is bitter and there's unforgiveness. This church is split three times, okay, and that person hates that person in this part, and that person is can't wait till the pastor is out of here, and that person talks about the pastor behind his back, gossip slanders him all the stinking time. I know none of you are right, oh ssh. I mean, nobody's perfect, but hey, we're new creatures in Christ. All things will pass away. All things have become new, but you're not new because you're all acting like you. Okay, I don't know what so, either confusion or hypocrisy. So then AI says, well, then how does this affect church discipline? If churches assume that real Christians should be able to obey, that it should be able to obey, then failure is treated as shocking instead of expected.

47:27 AI says, this is what you end up with sin now, only some sin now. Even AI, though, has a hard time explaining this, because in the church there's some sin that's just kind of you. It is expected. Nobody gets upset, nobody is shocked. It's okay, gossip, slander, backstabbing. I mean nobody. People may condemn it, but everybody kind of there's not going to be a big issue. But then some sins, everybody's like, oh, can you believe it? No, no Christian could do that. That's horrible. How did this happen? What happened? No? No, no, no no no no no no no no no no no ah. And then it's it's chaos. It's like AI's like the church.

48:07 Because the church assumes that basically everyone can keep the law, then failure basically becomes shocking instead of expected. Now nobody wants to say it should be expected, but it's expected. Ladies and gentlemen. Everyone in your church is going to sin. They are sinning right now. They've been a perpetual state of sin all week. That we're being a perpetual state on sin on Sunday. That includes everyone in your church, including your pastor. So AI said this because the churches kind of think this way. This leads to harsh discipline for some sense, while others are ignored. Extreme discipline here, but we're not going to do anything about these other situations.

48:54 Ai said. It leads to unrealistic standards. It set standards for leaders and members, no body's meeting, and it really creates legalism where behavior, rather than grace, defines someone's spiritual status. What defines your spiritual status? That you're saved by grace alone, through faith alone, and that the imputed righteousness of Christ is accredited to your account. Does that define your spiritual status? Or is your spiritual status defined by how much you read, how much you study, how much you give, how many church services you attend. You do this, you do this, you do this, you homeschool, you don't send your kids to public school. You do this, you do this, you do that.

49:41 So Ai then says this thinking creates a crisis when sin is exposed. Since churches assume that leaders and members should basically be able to keep the law, failure becomes catastrophic. Instead of responding biblically to sin, church is often won. Height it sh. Harshly punish it to prove that we take sins seriously. Here see that church over there, They don't take it serious, but we take it serious. In many cases, it's to prove a point. And again, you're gonna go after one and while everyone else in the congregation, I guess, washes their hands as if somehow they're clean. Ai goes on to say a third thing. This leads some churches to do.

50:31 They pick and choose which sins matter. It's pragmatic discipline. It's pragmatic. Everyone in the church is in perpetual sin twenty four seven three sixty five. But now you, I'm sorry, you're in perpetual sin. But now your perpetual sin went to an area when nobody else's perpetual sin went. So now you've got to go. You've got to be ashamed, you've got to be destroyed. We've got to ruin your life. But the rest of us are good to go. Are you sure? Are you sure? Are your hands clean? Are your hands really clean? Now? Your hands may be clean externally because you may wash them a lot, but internal inside you may wash the outside of that cup, you may wash the outside of that tombstone. Inside you're rotten, filthy, degenerate, no matter how much you want to pretend to be all misrighteous, are mister righteous? Ai says, well, why this leads to theological problems.

51:39 If law demands perfection but no one meets it, then law always condemns that's true, we're always condemned. Right. Yet even though this is the case, law demands perfection, no one meets it, So we're always condemned. Yet many churches do not functionally operate under grace. They treat the Christian life as though people be able to obey if they are truly saved. What does this resultant? Number one a double standard. Leaders are expected to be above reproach, but no one actually defines what that means, and a world where sin is constant. Number two, it gives a false view of sanctification where people believe they can reach a state of obedience that prevents moral failure, which is not the case. So then AI's like, do you want a solution. I'm like, yeah, give me a solution. Come on, AI, help me out. So AI says we need a biblical view of sin, grace, and leadership. To fix this, the church must do the following things. Number one, Acknowledge that every single Christian, every single pastor, every single teacher, every single volunteer sins constantly.

52:44 Number two. Stop acting as if some sins permanently disqualify while others are just simply ignored. Number three, Recognize that discipline is about protecting the flock, not maintaining an illusion of purity. Four emphasize grace in both salvation and sanctification, not just for new believers, but for everyone. The Gospel. Grace is for those who are being saved and for those who've been saved fifty years. You need to still hear the same news. Christ died for you by faith. His righteousness is imputed to you. In Him, you are perfect, righteous, holy.

53:24 There is no sin in Christ. You are a new creature. Old is gone, everything is new, that is true. And you need to hear that message Sunday after Sunday after Sunday, that be reminded of grace and the Gospel. Because you are in a perpetual state of sin. You need that grace, You need that mercy. You need to rest in that imputed righteousness because you're in sin. Twenty four to seven. So then AI says, you have identified a foundational issue. Churches say that people are sinners, but they function as if they should be able to obey the law. This contradiction affects every single aspect of church life. So then AI asked me some more questions, and I go.

54:12 On and say this. I say frequently on my podcast that I'm just a sinner with a microphone, or that I'm a degenerate with a microphone, and that the only thing I know. This is why I told Ai. The only thing I know is that I sin. That I sin in thought, I sin in word, I sin indeed, I sin in my desire. I sin internally, I sin externally twenty four seven three sixty five. That's all I know. I know that to be a fact. I don't care what anybody else says about themselves. Congratulations, you're better than me. I sin twenty four seven three sixty five, internally, externally, thought, word, deed, desire.

54:54 I go on to say, I believe the law demands absolute perfection internally and externally, and no one obeys that, so everyone is in san twenty four to seven, three sixty five. That to me, this is what I tell Ai is the foundation. The Bible, theology and human experience proves this. Now, how we operate with that as the foundation is the difficult part, and I don't think anyone has ever or will ever be able to figure it out. That's what I said to Ai. Ai then responded to me, this way, that's a brutally honest and theologically sound foundation.

55:38 I'm like, thank you. AI says, the law demands absolute perfection, and no one will meet it. That's not just a thiological assertion, it's the reality of scripture, human experience, and history. AI says that what I'm saying is not just a theological assertion. It's a reality of scripture. It's a reality of human experience. It's a reality of history. AI says that my foundation is rock solid. The law requires perfection. James two ten, Matthew five forty eight. All have sin and continue to sin Romans three ten through twelve, and twenty three. Sin is internal and external, and it is constant Mark seven twenty through twenty three, Romans seven, fifteen through twenty five.

56:25 If sin is a twenty. Four to seven three sixty five reality, then there's no category of good people and bad people. There are only sinners. And those sinners either number one, they are trusting in Christ righteousness are number two, they are trusting in their own righteousness, and they deceive themselves. If my foundation is true, there's only two kinds of people. They're not good people, bad people. Stronger Christian weaker Christian. You know what it is. You either are trusting in Christ righteousness or you're trying to trust in your own righteousness and you are deceiving yourself. The Church has no functional way to operate with this reality. This is what AI says. The Church has no functional way to operate with the reality that I believe, Scripture, history, everything.

57:12 Proves AI's like. The Church has no way to functionally, has no functional. Way to operate with this reality. The Church doesn't know how to operate with this reality. The church claims to believe what I say about that nobody is perfect. The law condemns at least some do. But practically this is what it does. This is what the church practically does. It sets up a system where people are expected to obey the. Law as if they could. It disciplines sin as if it's as. If it's shocking, when it's actually universal, common, and constant number three. It creates a false dichotomy of faithful versus unfaithful. Instead of recognizing every single person in the church is a lawbreaker, the church sets up this dicotomy faithful, unfaithful, sinners holy. Now, if you want to talk about our position, well, if I'm in Christ, then we are all holy, we're all perfect in our practical life.

58:14 We are all law breakers. So Ai says, this is why no one has ever figured out how to function with this reality. If we discipline sin, where do we draw the line? If we don't discipline sin, does the church become lawless? If leaders are expected to be above reproach? But no one ever truly is how does that work? So then AI's like, what's the answer? Ask me what's the answer? And I'm like, why are you asking me what's the answer? I don't know. You tell me. Humans have been trying to figure this out for two thousand years and we've made a mess of it. So Ai says, I love this. Ai is like, I don't think there's a perfect answer. I don't think a perfect answer exists, but I can give you some guiding realities.

59:05 I'm like okay. So Ais like I can't answer this. This is even beyond AI's capability. So Ai says this number one and well it breaks it in letters. A law always condemns grace is the only way to function. The law cannot be used as a standard of who deserves to lead or be disciplplined because it condemns everyone. If the law is the basis for evaluating people. All are disqualified from everything. B discipline should be about protection, not moral superiority. Church discipline should not function as a way to purify the church, because the church is always impure. Instead, it should focus on harm prevention and protection and protecting others public sin that causes spiritual or physical damage see no one has the right to stand above others. The idea of a higher standard for leaders is functionally impossible if all are sinning twenty four to seven, three sixty five, and said leadership should be understood as a stewardship of the word, not moral hierarchy, because no one is morally above you. I'm not morally above you. Your pastor's not morally above you. No one is morally above you, and you're not morally above anybody else, because no matter what sinner you look like, and you can stand on the hill and lift up your eyes to have it is that I think the God that I'm not like this, and I'm not like this, and I'm not like this, and I'm not like this. You convince yourself you're not like this, but internally you are in sin twenty four to seven

1:00:37 three sixty five. Even though you may not be committing the sins you listen. You may say, I think the God that I'm not the homosexual, I think the God that I'm not transgender. I think the God that I'm not a drug addict. Well, congratulations, but you are a sinner twenty four to seven three sixty five. You just are not committing those sins. And the reason you like to point out those sense is it makes you feel good about yourself, which is simply spiritual pride and arrogance. Why no one will ever fully figure it out? Now, AI doubles down. This is why no one is ever going to figure this out. Humans love control. Humans want clear rules, but the reality of constant sin destroys all clean cut categories. Now, I love how AI. A lot of times AI will use like we us, almost kind of including itself. At this point, AI separates itself. You guys, you human beings. Y'all love control.

1:01:45 You want clear rules, but the reality is within a theological system that believes that God's law is the standard. Well, constant sin destroys all clean cut category. There is no clean cut category. The only clean cut category is you're in Christ and you the imputed righteousness of Christ has been accredited to you. Are You're left in your own righteousness, deceiving your own self. AI goes on to say this, the moment a church tries to implement a functional system, they either become too strict, legalistic, or too loose Antinomian. Every historical model, Catholicism, Protestantism, fundamentalism, seeker sensitive has failed to resolve this tension. Every system of church has failed. Ai categorically just says every church has failed the n You just can't, don't you guys cannot figure it out because you can't. You can't functionally operate in a system that says every single one of you is in sand twenty four to seven three sixty five.

1:02:56 And the only way to fix that is then to say we're not all in sand to twenty four seven three sixty five. And you got to somehow lower the standard and say, when God says be holy as he. Is holy, he didn't really mean it. And when he said be perfect, says your heavenly Father's perfect, he didn't really mean it, I guess you. And then you can define what sin is and what sin is it in your own system, But it still can't function what it can only function within your system based on your definition. But then if your definition is not God's definition, it doesn't really matter how you function because you're at odds with God. So that doesn't work either. So AI says this the only possible way for it, and AI puts a question mark there, like, I can't say for sure this is the only way forward, but this is the best I can come up with. Admit the impossibility of resolving the tension.

1:03:45 Just admit it. You can't resolve it. It's impossible. You're just gonna have to admit it. Operate with transparency, Acknowledge that all church leaders and members are lawbreakers. We have to just all I'm a lawbreaker. We all need to start church. Good morning everyone. My name is and I'm a lawbreaker. Good morning everyone. My name is and I am a sinner. Twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, three three hundred and sixty five days a year. That's how every church service should begin. Every you know the pastor should begin. Good morning everyone. My name is and I'm a sinner. I'm a lawbreaker, and I send twenty four hours a day, seven days a week, three hundred and sixty five days a year, three hundred and seventy, three hundred and ninety days.

1:04:33 It doesn't matter how many days in a year, how few days in a year. I'm just it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how many hours. It doesn't matter how many days you can you can create more, you can create less. Guess what, I'm still going to be a sinner because I'm in a perpetual status in That's how everyone should greet each other at church. Good morning, Yes, my name is so, and so I'm a sinner. Good morning, my name is so. I'm a sinner. I'm a sinner. Everyone should just everyone should. That should be the way church. Everyone should greet each other at church. Not how are you doing, Oh, I'm blessed, doing great now. I don't care about how the kids are. No, don't ask, no, Just everyone greet each other good morning. I'm a sinner. And then when sin happens, nobody should be shocked because it's expected. Why because everyone just told you they are a sinner. Make grace, not legalistic morality. The Foundation recognize discipline as protective. It's not about achieving a pure church, because the church will never be pure until we are glorified, and he said no.

1:05:36 But we can purify it. You can attempt purifying movements to try to purify the church. But what No matter how pure you tried. To make it, Inevitably, it's impure because everyone still are sinners. Unless you can get rid of the sinful nature, you can clean up. You may be able to come in and purify the external actions of some to either make them hide in it, try to pretend they've changed it. But the reality is the sin will still be there, and it will still manifest itself over and over and over again. So I asked Ai, So what's your final thought here? Right? So Ai then talks to me personally.

1:06:21 AI says, your approach of owning the reality of sin and not pretending otherwise is rare because it destroys all human control mechanisms. This is why people do not like my perspective. AI is like, Hey, you're destroying every human control mechanism because I just straight up tell you I am a sinner with a microphone, I am a degenerate. I'm a degenerate. I sin all the time. When Paul says he's. The chief of sinners, buddy, you don't hold my coffee. I don't drink coffee, but hold it. Let me show you what sin really is. You got nothing on me.

1:07:11 And because my way of approach, basically, I own a reality, I don't pretend, and I destroy all human control mechanisms. Ai says, this is why churches operate pragmatically rather than biblically, because pragmatism makes people feel like they have control. But you are right, no one will ever figure this out. The only way we can do is acknowledge it, keep wrestling with it, and refuse to settle for false answers. And then Ai asked me about thirty questions. Hey, I was like, what about this? And about talk to me more?

1:07:53 And I'm like, okay, look, I got a life. I gotta go do something else. But notice Ai said what six times? Seven times? The church operates pragmatically. The church operates pragmatically, does not operate philologically, does not operate logically, does not operate consistently. But the foundation is that we Good morning everyone, Good evening everyone. I'm a sinner. Good morning everyone. I'm a sinner. I have sinned. I have sinned before being in ministry. I have sinned in ministry. I have failed I have let people down. I have hurt people. I have messed over, messed over things.

1:08:39 I have failed as a husband, as a father, as. A as a. Co worker, as a neighbor, as a podcaster, as a driver. I mean, you just put me whatever category you put me in. I have failed and and and there and I and that's it's just the reality. And especially in the minute I convinced myself, well, I'm doing better than that person, or I'm doing when I look at the Roy's report and sees all these reports about Wow, sexual abuse in the church, child molestation in the church, and this and this, and I can be like, wow, I've never done that, So I can feel morally superior because I haven't done that. The point is, I have sinned.

1:09:21 Maybe I haven't done that, and I thank God I haven't done that. But I've sinned and thought word deed desire. I have. I am, I will, I have sinned. I'm in the state of sin right now, and I will sin. I will sin this weekend, I will sin next week. I will send next weekend. I will sin as long as I'm alive. I will die in perpetual sin, but I will die in Christ. So positionally, I will die with the imputed righteousness credited to my account, and I will be perceived by God as being perfect, holy, and righteous because of what Christ has done for me. Then in glorification, all of this body and sinful flesh will be glorified changed.

1:10:14 Then I will be in a place will be no more pain, no more suffering, no more death, no more sin, no more tears. And how that works in a practical way within the church, there's no easy answers, but we have to return to that foundation. Everyone in your church is a sinner twenty four seven three sixty five. They are all law breakers, including those in leadership and those in the pew, those in the classroom for those seventy and over, and those in the classroom who are fourteen through twenty, those in the single class, those in the divorce class, those in the marriage class, those it doesn't matter teenager, It doesn't matter what the classroom is, doesn't matter where the people are. We all are sinners. I don't know if anybody can pick up a rock.

1:11:18 God bless