Small Groups 2024

0:02 Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is the Theology Central podcast, making Theology Central. Good afternoon everyone. It is Wednesday, September the eighteenth, twenty twenty four. It is currently four forty five pm Central Time, and I am coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located right here in Abilene, Texas. Now. Earlier today, from this studio, I was on the air for about ninety minutes, right, it was well over an hour, and it wasn't It wasn't very good, ladies and gentlemen. It was kind of a disaster. It was kind of a dumpster fire. It was kind of trash, right, And I know I know why it was because I have this philosophy, Right, I have a philosophy when it comes to doing reviews. Right, if I'm going to review something, I don't listen to it first, I grab it, and then I'm like, Okay, let's listen to this podcast, let's listen to this sermon, let's listen to this lecture, whatever it may be. And then I analyze, I critique, I offer my own perspective and so but it's happening in real time, right, My reactions are real they're not rehearsed. I'm not sitting there going ooh okay. Here comes the part that I really want to emphasize this, and no, it's happening in real time.

1:30 Now I like that, right, because it's not me going to listen to something, take notes, and then come listen to it again as now I then offer the reaction the second time. That's just to me, no fun. It's much more fun. I want to listen to this. Let's listen to it live and react in real time. And now I have no safety net because I don't know what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to be said. So sometimes i'm you know, trying in real time to look something up or go well what about this or what about that? Or formulating my ideas in real time. So it's much more interesting for me. Hopefully it's more interesting for you. But there are times, because I have adopted this philosophy, that something negative is going to happen. We start listening to something and then all of a sudden we're like, well, wait a minute. They spent like thirty five minutes before they ever actually got to the topic. They spent twenty minutes radially, you know, listing all these prayer requests. They spent fifteen minutes with you know, playing music whatever, and we and I had no idea that was going to occur. So but at the same time, I know that's the philosophy I'm going with.

2:38 So there are chances that's going to occur. But you have but I have to be honest, right when when the program just doesn't go the way you think it should have, you don't feel like you really did a good job. I don't think it was very beneficial. I don't know if it was very helpful. It may have been an actual waste of about ninety minutes. I have to face that and be willing to acknowledge that, right, we have to be willing to acknowledge that. I mean, that's I think that's kind of a key principle of Christianity, is being able to face yourself and acknowledge your own sin, your own failure, your own weakness, being able to see yourself accurately. I think that's a key element in Christianity.

3:21 And so and I think the church, now this is where I'm transitioning, that the church has to be willing to look at itself and sometimes face some very uncomfortable truths, and sometimes the church at large doesn't want to hear anything that forces them to look at themselves. But on this broadcast, I try to be very honest about my own failures. Like my last broadcast, I see that as a failure. In fact, I almost did not upload it. I came very close to deleting it. I thought it was a mess, that was a train wreck, and it did not go very well. And I know the very reason why it happened because I've adopted a philosophy, an idea of doing reviews a very certain way. If I changed the way I did reviews, I could avoid that.

4:09 But I'm unwilling to change that for the reasons I've already stated. I don't want my reviews to come across as rehearsed, as if they're produced, as if someone said, oh, you just went and found something that you just want to complain about. No, when we start a review, I have no idea where it's going, just like you, So no one can accuse me of having some agenda. All right, So there are reasons for my philosophy, But my philosophy leads to some of those very negative consequences, all right, But I'm willing to admit that. I have to be willing to admit that, and I think the church sometimes has to be willing to admit certain things. And on this program, I have raised questions about the church over and over and over again, and many people don't like my questions but constantly talk about and I'll just go and I'm not going to go through all the different things I've said. But here's a certain thing that has been brought up on this program countless times. Look at your church and ask yourself how much money it takes for that church to operate each year? What is the yearly cost to keep a church operating? And then ask yourself, so figure out the yearly cost, and then ask yourself, what are you getting for all of that money that it takes to keep it operating. And I have put forth the argument, the hypothesis that in most cases you

5:40 are not getting anywhere anything close to the amount of money it takes to keep a church operating. What you're getting is not worth it. It's not worth the money. It's not worth This is just from a very purely I know you can say fleshly perspective, but I think I think that is very accurate to say. And I've done some things on this broad giving people the opportunity to tell me, hey, when it comes to your spiritual growth, when it comes to your discipleship, when it comes to the things that have helped you and have taught you the most, is it your local church or is it something else? And inevitably, over and over and again, over and over and again, when I asked this question, the response always is it was this broadcast, or it was this Now it may it may that broadcast, or those sermons may originate from a church, but it's not their local church. So there are countless people out there who they are being disciple taught and it's not coming from their local church. And I've talked about my own Christian life.

6:41 So you look at the amount of money it takes uh local churches to operate, and then the people are actually being discipled, being taught, being fed by something other than their local church. That that should everyone should go. What's the problem. Let me let me just let me just give you an example, all right. The cost for an average sized church to operate annually can vary widely depending on several factors. Such as location, denomination, size of the congregation, and specific ministry needs. However, some general estimates can be provided based on common expenses, all right. So what I try to do is gather information, trying to get a basic an average. Now, it's not going to be anywhere perfect, and there's going to be wild differences depending Your church may fit into what this this estimate.

7:38 Your church may be above this estimate, may be below it. But we're just trying to give a basic idea, all right, So here we go. Are you ready? Facilities cost? So the first thing is is the building itself, all right? Rent or mortgage somewhere between fifty thousand dollars to one hundred thousand dollars a year fifty thousand to one hundred thousand per year to keep a church building, all right. Now, it could be higher or it could be lower, depending on location. All right, So somewhere between fifty thousand to one hundred thousand. Somewhere between fifty thousand. I don't know why my voice is cracking. I'm hitting puberty. Between fifty thousand and one hundred thousand a year just to keep the building. That's just the building, Ladies and gentlemen, just if it's Wednesday, if you're getting ready to go to church, you're gonna get ready, you're gonna get a car, you're gonna drive. And that building, just that building you're getting ready to walk into, is costing somewhere between fifty to one hundred thousand. Now again sometimes lower, sometimes more. Now, just think about that fifty to one hundred thousand. What are you getting out of it? What are you really gaining from it? Utilities, electricity, water, et cetera. Between ten ten thousand to thirty thousand dollars a year, So you have between fifty thousand and one hundred thousand for the building.

9:10 And then we had add utilities, water, et cetera. Somewhere between ten thousand to thirty thousand dollars a year for the building just to have electricity and have water and all the other types of things utilities that would fit within that category. Maintenance and repairs somewhere between five thousand and twenty thousand dollars per year. If you want, you can start adding all of this up between fifty to one hundred thousand for mortgage or rent, right between ten thousand to thirty thousand dollars a year for utilities and somewhere between five thousand and twenty thousand dollars per year simply for maintenance and repairs, Salaries and benefits somewhere between fifty thousand and seventy five thousand dollars a year. Now, this may vary based on experience and church size, but somewhere between fifty thousand and seventy five thousand dollars a year.

10:10 Do you see all the money it takes just to keep the building, just to have someone, you know, someone's past This is just the pastor salary. Now, if you want additional staff, say a music director, youth pastor office staff, this is going to cost another thirty thousand to one hundred thousand dollars. Are you adding all of this up? Between fifty thousand to one hundred thousand for the rent mortgage, between ten to thirty thousand a year for utilities, between five thousand and twenty thousand for maintenance and repairs. For the pastor's salary, somewhere between fifty thousand to seventy five thousand.

10:51 For additional staff music director, youth pastor office staff somewhere between thirty thousand and one hundred thousand, and benefits health, insurance or retirement between twenty thousand and fifty thousand. Now, ministry and outreach program costumes. You's got you get to have all of these programs, right, you gotta have programs well, youth and adult education between ten thousand to thirty thousand dollars a year for children's ministry, youth ministry and adult education if you want to do outreach somewhere between five thousand to twenty thousand. Operational expenses, office supplies, technology software between five thousand to fifteen thousand, insurance between five thousand to fifteen thousand, Legal accounting services between two thousand to ten thousand. Now, those are all things, and I could probably throw in other expenses as well. Right, So that's that's just really you're not that's not all. That's just describing is just the cost to keep the building open and operating. Now, what are the estimated total annual cost on the low end, on the very low end, it costs your church on the very low end. If your church is on the low end, between one hundred and fifty thousand and two hundred thousand dollars a year to stay open between one hundred and fifty thousand to two

12:24 hundred thousand dollars a year to stay open. Try to wrap your mind around that. Just for the bill, we're we're not even talking about what's happening in the building, what people are actually getting, what people actually remember, how much they're learning, how much they're not learning. We're just talking to keep the building open. Basically, one hundred and fifty thousand to two hundred thousand dollars a year. Now, I want you to think, just write down one hundred, just right down, one hundred and fifty thousand dollars per year, and then ask yourself how much how many hours of teaching does your church produce annually? Just right down the hours of teaching your church produces annually, And then ask yourself, is that worth one hundred and fifty to two hundred thousand dollars a year? And that's on the low end, and how much of and again, what do you get from that teaching base on? Where are you getting most of your spiritual food? Now, the mid range if your church is in the mid range between two hundred and fifty thousand to three hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year.

13:44 If your church is on the high end between four hundred thousand and five hundred thousand dollars a year. So from the low end, it's it's going to cost a church about one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to stay open, and from the high end it's going to go all the way up to five one hundred thousand dollars a year. I just want you to ask yourself, what are you getting out of that? How many hours of teaching are they producing? Come on? What some of that? When you look at that, how much money, how much it costs, and you figure out what you're getting. And if you look at it, a lot of times your Sunday school is not even being taught by anyone who's paid.

14:33 A lot of times your Sunday school teacher is not even unpaid staff. So then your pastor may only be only giving you maybe an hour if you're lucky, two hours period a week. It's costing almost two hundred thousand dollars for the church to operate, and you may get two hours of actual teaching a week from someone on paid staff. And a lot of times if you do small groups, which we're going to be talking about again, it's not in anyone on the paid staff. So a lot of the teaching is not even from people on the paid staff, but yet it's costing this much money. What are you getting now? Why am I talking about that? Why?

15:17 Because just a few minutes ago I came up to the studio, sat down and said, Okay, the last broadcast was trash. I kind of want to go on and do maybe a part two and try to finish up and get some more out of that review. So we can I can say we accomplish something. But I don't want to take that risk. So what should I do? So I sat down and I was thinking. I was thinking. So I opened up my iPad, went to the Roy's Report and I saw a thing about small groups and I was like, oh boy, here we go, small groups in twenty twenty four. All right, and if you know anything about my frustration with small groups, let me try to explain some of my frustration about small groups. So right, not in every church, but in many churches I have watched this take place. The small groups do not occur inside the building that is costing somewhere between one hundred and fifty to five hundred thousand dollars a year to stay, to keep open, right, So you have small groups, they're not even meeting inside the building that you're paying all this money for. They're meeting in people's homes. So in many cases, I've literally saw this happen. So the church may have like some kind of you know, nursery, daycare kind of thing going so that people can drive to the church to drop off their kids, then they can drive to a house to go to the small group so that they can drive back to the church. I'm like, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in my life.

16:41 If you're going to do small groups, and you're already coming to the church to drop off the kids for some type of daycare or youth program, then just do the small groups within the building, right, Because you're paying between one hundred and fifty to five hundred thousand dollars to keep the building open. If you're not going to use the stink buildings, sell the property and just break everything into small groups, it makes no sense. So that's my already my frustration. My second frustration is that over and over and over what I hear is you there cannot be real discipleship if people really are going to grow, if they're really going to learn, they need small groups.

17:22 So then I'm always like, well, then what in the world is going on inside the building. If small groups is the key to my spiritual growth, if small groups is the key to discipleship, if small groups is the answer to everything, then shut the building down, get rid of the stink in building. Stop spending five hundred thousand dollars or one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to keep a building open. When you're telling me what happens in the building is not really doing the job. What's really doing the job is small groups. And I've heard pastors say that, well, I can't really do that kind of teaching. We can't really go that in depth from the pulpit. We do that in the small groups. Well, then I know people who go to small groups and I'm like, what did you do in small group? That was your great lesson? That's the great in depth doctrinal teaching.

18:07 It sounds like you had a little bit of food, had some snacks, talked about the weather, sung a few songs, and had a devotional. So I've always been somewhat critical of everybody's like small group, small groups, small groups, small grip. I've heard that since the nineteen ninetyes. Small groups is the answer, Small groups is the answer. Small groups, And I want to scream, If small groups is a stinking answer, then get rid of the stinking church. Just become a small group. Oh but we got to have this building, we got to have this building. Well, why are you gonna pay between one hundred and fifty thousand, five hundred thousand dollars a year when you're telling me that the real where the real work happens, where the real teaching happens, where the real discipleship happens, is not inside the church.

18:52 It's someone's living room. No sense. And if that's where all the teaching is, then why do you record your stinking sermons and put them online? Record the small group teaching? Because supposedly the small group teaching is where it's all at. So if it costs between one hundred and fifty thousand to five hundred thousand dollars a year to keep a church operating, then what are we getting from it? I've been asking that question over and over. Well, here we go. Here's the headline. It was published September seventeenth, twenty twenty four.

19:33 At seven twenty am Central Time, So yesterday morning this was published headline survey small groups remain the key aspect of churches discipleship ministry. So what's the key aspect of a church's discipleship? Small groups? Small groups, not the pulpit, small groups. What in the world is the pulpit doing? Isn't the pulpit where Christians are to be equipped? So they're no longer children tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine. If you're not doing the work from the pulpit, and you're doing it in small groups, and that's the key, then get rid of the stinking church.

20:15 I don't understand it. So let's spend a little time exploring this article. Are you ready? Here we go. So they start a story about someone visiting a friend in England in the late seventeen hundreds. His name was Robert. I'm gonna say, Rakes are aik ees. If I'm mispronouncing that, I apologize. I did not look up to listen to how to state it correctly. But Robert Rakes he encountered children cursing, gambling and fighting in the streets. He was horrified, but a local woman told him it was even worse on Sundays, the children's one day off each week from the factory. Determining to help the children in that situation learn to read and learn about God who loved them, he founded the first Sunday school in seventeen eighty. So the first Sunday school seventeen eighty, seventeen hundred years after the beginning of Christianity, is the first Sunday school. I wonder, like, how do how does that impact you at all? Like what we've got to have Sunday school? We got to do things a certain way, but the first one doesn't show up to seventeen eighty does that act? Like? So wait, so how should we actually be doing things? All? Right? Well, much has changed in the past two hundred and fifty years.

21:39 Churches are still using some form of small group discipleship to help children and adults grow in their faith, and most churches still use the term Sunday school to describe at least part of their ministry. Okay, so typically when I hear the term small groups, I don't think Sunday school because small groups what I have seen there are things that happen on whatever or not. Maybe you get rid of your Sunday evening services and you go to small groups, or you get rid of your Wednesday evening services and you go to small groups. And the small groups happen outside of the church, and whoever is leading the small group is almost never paid staff. They're not getting a salary. So you you so, all the money has cost to hire that pastor, he's not even doing the teaching. It's given to someone in the group. Now, this is this is my So I separate small groups from Sunday School. But let's start with Sunday School. Let's start with Sunday School. All right, My, this is me my experience in Sunday School in churches other than one church.

22:45 One church was different, and that one church impacts the way I decided to do Sunday School when I became a pastor, all right, and I'm so glad of that church, even though things kind of went bad, I am very grateful for what I learned there. And I'll explain, right, so, and my estimation what I found. And this started off as a teenager, right, So, when I became saved. As a teenager, I walked into the youth group and I'm like, this is an absolute, complete and total joke. I'm not going to spend any time here. I could sit at home and hit myself in the head with a baseball bat and it'd be more productive than going to the stinking youth Department Sundays. What is this? This is a joke. It's ridiculous. It's no, I'm not going to go there.

23:25 And now you can say you you were arrogant and condescending. Maybe I was, but I was a brand new Christian and it was a joke. I wasn't going to learn anything there. It was about being I don't know what it was. It was. It was ridiculous. So I volunteered myself to go to the adult Sunday school class. So I went to the adult Sunday school class. The adult Sunday School class had I've got one here. What would we call the Sunday School Quarterly. We would get these quarterly booklets, right, and they would give you know, the session one, session two, give this scriptures. And so I got one. I took that thing home. Man, I went through that thing like I was studying for my finals, right.

24:06 I went through. I had highlighters, I had marks, I was writing cross references. I was looking up every scripture. I tore through that thing all week, like everything we were gonna be studying. I came to Sunday School and I'm like, okay, I'm with the adults now, man, all right, I'm not with those ridiculous teenagers. Even though I was a teenager. I'm not with those foolish, ignorant teenagers who don't care about anything. And they, I mean, it's ridiculous. Now I'm with the adults. We're gonna talk doctrine, we're gonna talk theology, we're gonna dig into scripture. Oh, this is gonna be great. And I come running in and it was an absolute total joke. The Sunday School teacher was not prepared. The whole thing was useless. It was a waste of time. And now I've told the story a million times. I was an arrogant, condescending jerk, and so I basically mocked the Sunday School teacher for being clueless, not being prepared, and obviously I hadn't even read that week's less and I was like, you're basically a joke, and this is a waste of my stinking time. I could sit at home and listen to sermons on Christian radio and get more than I'm getting from this ridiculous Sunday school class. I'm not here to hold hand seen kumbaya and hear about the weather or about your job or whatever you want to talk about. I thought we were coming to study. I thought the Bible was this great thing to see inspired word of God. Oh yeah, it's so important. And then I get here and it's like this is a joke. There's a waste of time, people in and out, getting coffee and donuts, and it's just like, I don't even know what the point was.

25:37 It was like a waste of time. Now I know I was very negative, very negative. So I leave that. Now I go to a Lutheran church. The Lutheran Church on Sundays. Did we even have a Sunday school. I think we had a Sunday school. We had a Sunday school, and I guess it was pretty good. I think the pastor actually taught the Sunday school class. It was pretty good. It was much better than the Baptist one. It was only doctrinal. At least you could tell someone was somewhat prepared. It was. It was okay. I don't remember anything from it. It wasn't anything great, but I did. I was very I was. I was better off when I first became a Lutheran. I think during uh maybe maybe it was Wednesdays, there was some day of the week they had basically catechises.

26:22 We're going through LU Luther's Catechism, and so there there, I did benefit greatly from that, all right. So, but I don't really remember much about Sunday School. I mean, basically all you had really is the Sunday morning service. You had nothing on Sunday night. I think Wednesday night you did kind of a little Bible study. There wasn't really much offered during the week, and that was one of my frustrations with Lutheranism. I'm like, once again, how much are we paying to keep this building going? I mean, the building is beautiful, the building is nice, the sanctuary is gorgeous. How much money is it costing to keep this building open for basically one hour a week of teaching and the sermon was about twenty minutes. I'm like, so even there, I was. I was I remember I was still a teenager and I was calling like every Lutheran church within fifty miles, going, do you have anything going on, anything, anything, anything. I'll take anything. I don't care what it is. Give me something that nobody had anything.

27:12 It was, it was. It was such a it was such a joke. So then I joined the military and I end up in Belleview, Nebraska. Omaha, Nebraska was where the military base was. I was living in Bellevue, Nebraska, and then we ultimately found myself. I won't go through the whole story, but at a church and Papilion, Nebraska, twin cities, independent Fundamental Baptist church. And this was the first time, all of a sudden, I loved it because Sunday school was the pastor standing behind the pulpit and taught for one full hour. The pastor taught, and then we would take a break, and then we'd go into morning worship and the pastor taught for one full hour, and then we would go home, and then we would come back on Wednesday, and the pastor would teach for all about four minutes, about forty minutes, forty five minutes.

28:03 And so we had Sunday School Sunday morning, Sunday night. If I forgot I think I did a failed to mention Sunday night, Sunday night, another full hour of teaching and Wednesday night and all of it was the pastor and he taught all of it. And that was like, Wow, this is the way it should be. This should be great. Now I end up leaving that church for a host of reasons, end up in another church in Bellevue, Nebraska. Once again. Now I'm back in a Sunday school class. And typically the Sunday School class was Hey, this for this quarter or whatever, we're gonna be using this book. We're gonna be using this. I said, you had to buy a book, right to be a book MacArthur or whomever, and then you were supposed to read a chapter and then show up to Sunday school to discuss it. Well, guess what I found, Over and over and over, nobody was reading anything. Nobody was really prepared to have the discussion.

28:55 It was an absolute waste of my time. It was a waste of time. I could have read the book and talked to myself about it. Sunday School was an absolute waste of time. So my experiences with Sunday School typically was whenever and there are other times I was in Sunday School, but most of the time it was either this, everyone's sitting around in like a semi circle, and then everyone gets to tell what they think the text means. And it's just like this is it's like a free for all of heretical nonsense. I mean, and it's just a free for all for hermeneutical craziness. And it's like and I'm just sitting there going, what is happening?

29:36 What are you talking about? That's not? Oh my goodness, what is going on? How is it? I can't handle this because what do you do? Do You sit there and correct everyone? Well, that's not correct, So you just sit there and let people and you hope you're looking to the Sunday school teacher like uh uh uh never mind, and so that I wouldn't correct anybody, and then I would just leave frustrated. I experience Sunday school a disaster, and my and my experience. You may have better, but in my case it's not. And again, and typically it's being taught by someone who's not even on the paid staff. So we're paying one hundred and fifty to five hundred thousand dollars a year for a volunteer to try to teach Sunday school. That in many cases is more I don't know what it's supposed to be, So they mentioned Sunday School. Now, the small groups I ever attended was the same kind of It was basically like Sunday School, except it was a little bit more like casual in the sense that, well, you have to have snacks, maybe sing a song, everyone talking, you know, you do the ice breaker where everyone goes around answering some random question.

30:45 And then it was a lot again of so what do you think? And what do you think? And what do you think? And what do you think? And what do you think? And you get fifteen ideas of what everyone thinks, but in many cases you don't really get an idea of what the text actually says. And it was shallow and not very in depth. Whether you call it Sunday school or small groups, I've got a problem. But this is saying, hey, hey, this is according to them, small groups is the key aspect of a church discipleship ministry. So here's what they go on to provide. Right. According to LifeWay Research study of US Protestant churches with ongoing adult Bible study groups, fifty six percent says the label Sunday school describes at least part of their groups ministry.

31:27 Almost three and four seventy two percent say they're comfortable with others referring to their groups as adult Bible studies. Around two and five thirty nine percent say small groups. So they go through the different titles they have for it, right, so there's different terminology has changed, right, But to me, if it's Sunday morning and it's at church, it's Sunday School, And if it's a small group outside of church, then it's a small group. That's typically the way I identify them. And when I read books about small groups. When I first started learning about the concept, it was the idea of doing it outside a church, doing it side of church, and it was more for evangelism than it was supposed to be discipleship. But I digress, all right. When it comes to Bible study groups, it's less about the name we give the ministry and more about what the groups actually do, said Ken Braddy, director of Sunday School and Network Partnership at LifeWay. Now please note LifeWay has a vested interest in promoting small groups and Sunday School because LifeWay I have right here sell a ton of their quarterly study guides. They make their money off these I look right here, LifeWay adults, this is Bible Studies for Life Personal Study Guide, Fall twenty twenty three. They do you know the amount of money churches pay for these things that nobody typically really does much with. So LifeWay wants to. Obviously they're going to promote it because that's

32:58 their business model. Hey, churches, get your curriculum, buy it now, and curriculum costs are saying. Look, the next time you're at church, just ask your church how much money is spent annually on curriculum. How much money is and then ask yourself all that money and then walk around the church and ask people what they do with that curriculum, what they're learning from it. Do they get a study guide? Do they even know where their study guide is for that quarter? Have they read it? Have they used it? What you'll find is most of that money spent on curriculum. You would have a I know this is going to be self serving, but I'm being somewhat sarcastic here. Churches would be better off sending me the money because you're just buying study guys that nobody actually uses. And I went through that same frustration in my little church trying to put devotional and study guides in people's hands, and then you realize nobody's using them, nobody's looking at them.

33:55 Why are we spending the stinking money? Forget it? I almost sometimes I wanted to get a weird taking, like, look if nobody's going to spend the money on the things we're using. Not only did I stop getting them, I wanted to say, then just give me a pay raise for crying out loud, right, give me a couple one hundred dollars a month. Right, I'll just use it for whatever I want to use it for. All right, So, so what these groups? What? When these groups gather, leaders are most likely to say they want the primary focus to be on studying scripture. Almost half forty six percent of adult Bible study group ministries leaders say Bible study is the highest objective for the groups. Now that is absolutely frightening. Only forty Now the article is presenting it in a positive way. I think that's frightening. So you take all the churches for only forty six percent of the leaders say the primary focus is studying scripture. Less than half say the primary focus of a small group is to study scripture. Then don't tell me the small groups are the key to learning and the create key to discipleship. When less than fifty percent of the leaders say that's the key aspect of it, it means the whole thing's a fraud. Whole thing's a scam. If not even half we'll say that the key element is studying the Bible, then the small group is a social function.

35:28 It's to meet friends, hold hands and talk about life. And that's great if that's what you need, but don't make it a ministry of the church. Say hey, I'm gonna get I'm gonna have get togethers at my house so that we can come over and talk about life and do life together and share our problems and concerns and talk about the fun things, the good things that we can cry together and life together, and we can play some games, eat some food, and do whatever great go do it. It's not the part of the church. The church is to be equipping saints. And if only forty six percent of small group leaders say that the key as in fact, you use their exact words, that the primary focus is studying scripture, then the whole small group concept has all gone off the rails and the whole thing's a fraud. So forty six percent of adult Bible study group leaders say Bible study is the highest objective.

36:21 Fewers say the primary purpose is intentional discipleship making or equipping. So only sixteen percent say that it's about discipleship or equipping. Only sixteen percent. So but wait a minute, remember the headline of the article, Hey, small groups are still the key to discipleship. Well not when only sixteen percent of the small group leaders say it's about discipleship or equipping. Fourteen percent say worship relationship and community fellowship is twelve percent, ministry service is seven percent, and an outreach in evangelism only five percent. Now, I was in the nineties, even at Grace University, we had a special week long thing about small groups and it was like evangelism. Evangelism. Some people feel uncomfortable coming to a church, but if you'll have a study in your home, you'll be more likely to come there. Well, only five percent say evangelism is the key, so all of that was a lie as well.

37:25 All right, Now, churches are most likely to rank Bible study as the top priority for groups, But again it's only forty six percent on average, churches have seven ongoing Bible study groups for adults, with an average of sixty nine weekly participants in a three month period. Average churches see ninety one individuals connect with a small group Bible study at least once. Around two and five worship attendees at the church, forty four percent also typically participate in small groups. A third of churches, thirty three percent say at most a quarter of their worship service attendants involved in an ongoing Bible study. Another third thirty four percent, say they are more than a quarter, but no more than half. The final thirty three percent have at least half of their worship attendees involved in a small group ministry.

38:16 Fourteen percent who say more than three and four attend both the worship service and small group. So what you have is you have some who will attend the worship service but won't attend the small group, and you have some who attend the small groups but then don't attend the worship service. So what do you I don't even understand that then the concept? So are you just dividing the church into the worship attenders versus the small group attenders? Why don't you just have people come to church I mean, you're paying between one hundred and fifty thousand to five hundred thousand dollars a year for the building. Why don't you to have people there? Now, in some cases they're identifying people as small group as a Sunday School. Well, I do know that lots of people do not show up for Sunday School, but will show up for church.

38:58 And then it's like, well, then why are we doing? Why are we even doing Sunday School. I mean, I've watched that over my Christian life. I've always been baffled by that. Sunday School starts, attend the morning worship at eleven, and then you'll see Sunday School. Fifty percent of the church is missing. Oh I'm sorry, you can't be bothered to come to Sunday School. I'm sorry, Just I know, I know the requirement is just way too much. Now, I understand for health reasons some people may not be able to attend, but in some cases it's just absolutely maddening. Involvement in worship and small groups are not in competition.

39:40 Studies have shown participating in ongoing Bible study boasters worship attendance. So see, that's the key. If you have a small group. Then the key is it will ultimately translate into getting them into the worship service. Right, That's always been the strategy, all right. Almost every church leader ninety three percent says their ongoing groups are meeting at least weekly, including eighty five percent who say once a week in eight and eight percent more than once a week. Fewer say they gather every two weeks five percent or or or once a month. So basically almost ninety three percent say they happen at least once a week, and some more than once a week. All right, so they happen weekly For around three quarters seventy three percent, these gatherings happen basically all year long. Almost half forty seven percent say they meet all year one another twenty six percent say they meet all year except a few holidays. One in five nineteen percent take the summers off but otherwise meet the rest of the year. Fewer groups ministry leaders say they meet for two semesters of two to three months or three similar link periods, so basically they go basically. The majority go around all year, so all year small groups are occurring, right. More than nine to ten leaders have groups gathering at the church building or whatever location of congregation meets in, all right, So that's so that's that's a positive now seeing my experience, they happen outside the church.

41:08 The statistics say that my perception is wrong, that most happen inside the church. But I think the reason why is that they're classifying Sunday School as a small group, so that this is where you get into statistics. So my mind, small groups was always done outside the church because that was not a Sunday School, was not considered a small group. It was considered Sunday School. But they've changed that. So these statistics may be giving kind of a not the picture that I am seeing because I don't I don't call Sunday School a small group, all right, Fewer than one in three, say, at least some group meets in homes, others use various off campus locations. On average, four and five groups meet at the church. So that's good.

41:56 That's a good thing, right, I will look if you're using that now, well I can't applaud yet. If you're calling Sunday School the small group, well then of course it's going to meet at church, so great. But if you have small groups not meeting at church, well then that's where I would be like, well, why are we paying for the building? All right? Three and ten say their groups exclusively meet before or after their weekly worship service. See, so that's why they're happening at the church. Another thirty five percent of the church meets in any day or night of the week other than when they regularly gather at worship. A similar percentage say they have group gatherings before or after the service and other times during the week.

42:38 All right, So again they have it's an interesting evolution of terms because they are basically referring to small group here as Sunday school as Sunday school. They've got so many statistics here, all right, Well, they just kind of give a all of that breakdown. Remember the headline was small groups remain key aspect of church discipleship ministry. So let's break this down. Let's break this down. Let's break this down. Average cost for a church to operate is between one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to five hundred thousand dollars a year, all right, which is insane, right crazy. Now, once you have that, what are you getting from it? What are you getting from it? Now?

43:30 First you start with the preaching. How many sermons do you get for one hundred and fifty to five hundred thousand dollars a year? How many sermons? How many sermons? Many churches cancel services for all kinds of things. Holidays, they may get rid of a service for summer. They may have to cancel sometimes for weather, they may all So, are you already going to you're not gonna get a sermon every week because many churches are. There's gonna be weeks that there's not going to be a sermon, all right, So you already know you're not gonna get one sermon per week, so you're already gonna be less than that. Now, in some churches you do get Sunday school, Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday from the pastor himself. So you're basically getting you know, you're getting three you're getting four hours per week of in depth, hopefully in depth teaching. Okay, Now, that's gonna make that one hundred and fifty to five hundred thousand seem a lot more a lot. It's gonna at least be appear to be more worth it, if that makes some sense. But you've got plenty of churches.

44:33 When I moved back to Texas from Nebraska, I was shocked. I was shocked because we couldn't find churches that would have a Sunday night service, and We're like, what in the world? So we get Sunday morning night, and then Wednesday night in many cases was really not much. Now, some would offer some kind of small group right that was a meeting in someone's house that when you would attend, you would be like, I don't want anything to do with this is nonsense. And so in many cases the Sunday school wasn't from the pastor it was just whatever and then and then no Sunday night or Wednesday. And I'd be like, well, basically, what this church is telling me that if I'm going to do any if I'm actually going to guide my family spiritually, I'm going to be doing most of the teaching at home. So I don't know what's the point of going to church, and so I don't know. You know, you could break it down, maybe we could do some research and discover but most churches don't have a sermon Sunday morning, Sunday night and Wednesday night. Many do not. They have some other kind of program going on, So what are you really getting for one hundred and fifty to five hundred thousand dollars a year? Many will refer to their small groups as Sunday School. What are you getting from Sunday School? What are you actually getting? What are you actually getting? Some have small groups that meet during the week outside of the building. Well, if they're not meeting at the building, then again, why are you paying for the building? And why are you actually getting into small groups? We have

46:05 a survey where only forty six percent of leaders say that the Bible study is the key is that's only forty six percent and even smaller number very small. What was it that was thinking? Was like less than ten percent say that by that discipleship and equipping was a part of it. It was some small number. Well, then what in the world is going on in small groups? And guess what? Those small groups typically have some kind of curriculum or some kind of book the church is typically paying for, which again goes to the cost. What are you getting for it? Now? One I do not I can't stand when church is basically a state that it's not the it's not the pulpits job to really disciple or to go in depth that has to be done, and well, small groups. I can't stand that when they basically excuse their responsibility and push it over to a small group, that that absolutely makes me lose my mind personally.

47:13 Any church that says that I wouldn't attend because you're telling me immediately that the pulpit really is not the place to go in depth, well then I don't know why I'm even showing up for some shallow three point nonsense instead of actually digging in. But here's where, and I know churches don't want to hear this, but this is where I can get frustrated. For one hundred and fifty thousand, let's go one hundred thousand dollars a year. Let's just go one hundred thousand dollars a year. One hundred thousand, right, So that's lower than the lowest estimate for one hundred thousand dollars a year. For one hundred thousand dollars a year, I could provide probably five hours of some type of teaching Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

48:13 If I was to bring in one hundred thousand dollars a year for a podcast, I could broadcast probably five hours a day without too much difficulty. Oh, it may fluctuate. Maybe some days you only get three three hours. Maybe some days you only get two hours. Maybe some days you only get four hours. Maybe some days you get six or seven. But I could bry because it would be like one hundred thousand dollars. We're going all in, We're going for one hundred thousand, and for one hundred thousand dollars a year, I could do this, and I mean this, for one hundred thousand dollars a year, I could broadcast about five hours a day. I could also provide digital curriculum for anyone who wants it. We could do guided Bible studies using the curriculum. We could do Bible study exercises. We could do we could do for for one hundred thousand dollars a year. We could basically do I mean, I can do one hundred thousand times more than any church. And I'm just I'm not saying just me. Anyone could anyone with a microphone, anyone with a microphone, for one hundred thousand dollars a year. So it's going to cost between one hundred and fifty to five hundred thousand dollars to keep a church open, and a lot of them they are regulating a lot of what I think is the responsibility of the pulpit to these so called small groups. And even the small groups, we don't really know what their focus is because only forty six percent of the leaders even say Bible study is the key focus. This is why so many people in the church is not getting their discipleship and equipping

49:45 from the church. They're getting it now. They me getting it from a church, but not their local church. So then what is their local church doing for that much money, I mean, for a hundred thousand dollars a year for crying out loud, Like just a podcast could provide anything.

50:31 It could provide curriculum, it could probably give away books. It could I mean, you could just broadcast hour after hour after hour after hour, and yet you'll have churches who I don't. I don't, I don't get it. So we learned this. It sounds like small groups. Now the term refers to Sunday School, which now use the statistics about where they take place. So if you refer to Sunday School as a small group, well, then the majority of them are happening in the building. That's I guess that's a positive. But if for those churches that have small groups that meet outside of the building, again, then you have to ask the question why are you paying the money for the building? And then what is actually being what is actually happening in Sunday school? Walk around your church. Who are the Sunday school teachers? Who are the Sunday school teachers in your church? Come and walk around and ask who's the Sunday school teachers? And then ask yourself, ask this, are there any requirements for those Sunday school teachers? Do they have to pass a theology test?

51:41 Ask some of your Sunday school teachers in your church, Come on, tell me, give me what's the Bible study method you use? Do you even have a Bible study method? Do you know the Bible study methods? Many cases, they don't have a clue. So you have then a whole group of people who in many cases never been to Bible college, never been to seminary, and they're not paid staff. Who are may who are in charge of all of these so called small groups are Sunday school classrooms? The church is spending all of this money to provide them curriculum. Many cases, the people who go aren't even using the curriculum. And then what's actually transpiring in those Sunday school classrooms. Just think of all the money goes to keep those classrooms operating, all the money that goes. I've heard estimates of how much money it costs for the curriculum. Sometimes I am utterly baffled and blown away. I'm like, that much money. Why can't the Sunday school teachers take a bible go home just by one, like one one book of the curriculum for each Sunday school teacher. Then the Sunday school teacher takes that curriculum and then with their own study works out a lesson and teach the lesson.

52:50 Why spend money to give everyone a study guide when I think, I think statistics would prove nobody is using it. Why spend all of that money? And why do do the teachers need book? Why can't the teachers formulate their own lessons? And if they need something, they need some assistance, and they need some help. Say, okay, each Sunday school teacher, you have this much money per year for you not to buy curriculum for the class Because in many cases that goes to waste. It's a waste of time and money. And then if the teacher needs something or needs some kind of guided curriculum, they have it for themselves so that they can look at it, read it, process it, and then turn it into a lesson. So what what what is really happening? What is happening? Why is small I'm just that's that. That article blows my mind because the article makes the argument that small groups is the key to disciple making, but yet the leaders themselves only forty six percent says Bible study is the key. Folks, Well, then I don't understand what in the world is going on?

54:09 So what do you think about all of it? Now? I know, let me just go ahead and get this out of the way. A lot of people will say, you have a very that's you look at it from a very pragmatic perspective. You're looking at it from a very fleshly perspective, and that I look, I'm aware of that. But what I'm trying to say is that churches, you have to use money, you have to spend money, right, so you have to take the moment to at least look at it to some level. From that perspective, right, just like Look, I know, on one hand, when I do a podcast episode like the last one that I started by acknowledging just did not go well and it was a train wreck. And I understand the reason was because of the philosophy I've adopted and how to do reviews can lead to this. I think churches have to also go, well, wait a minute, we have adopted a certain philosophy or a certain tradition about what your churches need.

54:59 When we need so called small groups, we need so called Sunday school, we need these things, we need a building, We've adopted a certain philosophy. Well, with that philosophy comes some negative, unintended consequences. And I think some of the negative unintended consequences is a church is spending between one hundred and fifty and five hundred thousand dollars a year to maintain a building, and when you see what actually people are gaining from that building, in many cases, I don't think it's worth one hundred and fifty and five hundred thousand. I know that's a fleshly perspective, but it has to least be considered so that we can say, well, what can we do to get more out of this building. What can we do so that we are accomplishing something far greater than the amount of money going in. Because then what happens is you fall into a cycle, which is I've got to continue to bring in this many people, and they need to give this much money so that we can keep the building operating and we can keep funding.

55:53 So in some cases, evangelism is not so much about people coming to faith in Christ so they can go to heaven. Evangelism is about in suing, you have enough people in the pew giving money to keep the machine operating. Without it, the machine falls apart. We don't have money for this, we don't have money for this, And then financial fights begin to break out in the church, and the next thing you know, you went are in trouble. And then you have to say, well, we got to get rid of this. We can't do this, we can't do this, we can't do this, we can't do this, we can't and then the next thing you know, the church ceases to exist. And for all the money that went in to keep that church operating, I hate to say it, one person sitting somewhere with a laptop and a microphone in an internet connection could have provided more teaching than the church provided in five years, and they did it in six months. All I'm saying is that has to at least be considered. Now we've talked about this countless times on this PODCAS. We call it what a cost benefit analysis. We talked about what is the benefit one is gaining from the cost that it takes to provide said benefit? What is the worth of that benefit?

57:18 And so when I try not to look at it from a pragmatic stempoint, I just asked people, so come on, tell me about your Christian life. Where did you learn, where did you grow? Where did you get fed? And it'll be like, well from this radio program or from this or from this. I'm like, so did you go to church? Well, yeah, well then why were you being fed? Because the local church, even though it cost all that money, wasn't actually feeding the people who go there. Now, some people will ask, so then if I'm not being fed there, then what should I do? Well, one could argue, you give the money to whoever's feeding you. Now, the only problem is some will say, well that's wrong because the tithe or well, whether you get into it believing in a tithe they're not the gift should go to the church.

58:02 But then you could argue, do you go with a universal church idea, Well, any ministry is a part of the universal church. Like you could then start playing little games and you know, we can get into a big fight. But the thing is is if if you're listening to five hours a week of a program and I'm not saying mine, so please don't think I'm any of any of them. This is where you're getting your food. You're getting your discipleship and your church. You're not getting You're you're walking out going well, you know, all right whatever, I don't even know. Well, then should the money go to continue to maintain that building so you're not being fed. Now, I'm not saying you should sit there and complain and throw a fit and act a full and cause trouble, because that's of no value, because in any cases, the church is structured that it has to do what will please the greatest number of people so that you can maintain a number of people in order to maintain the building.

58:53 Everything is about everything is about keeping the gears turning. It's an it's it's a it's a machine. It's a mechanism. It's a it's an industry, and you've got to keep it funded and you've got to keep it flowing. So what do you got to do? You got to keep people happy? Well, what do you do? You got to do to keep people happy? You need programs, you need activities, you need facilities. You got to do this, and you got to do this, and you got to do that because it's expected. I've often said, churches have buildings. I've always been just blown away up by this. Churches have buildings, all these buildings with all these rooms, right, and you've got ministerial staff who's supposed to be, you know, equipped and ready and desire to teach, hunger to teach. I'm like, why aren't those classrooms being used Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday with people like Okay, For the next two hours, I'm going to be broadcasting and I'm going to be working on the Book of Job. Coming up in about four hours, Robert's gonna come in. He's going to be working on the Book of Limitations and coming up over overnight from midnight to three, we're gonna have tim He's going to be teaching on the book, Amlaki, because we got all these rooms, all we need is a microphone put in each room and a laptop and an internet connection.

1:00:16 You got the ministerial staff, why don't you just teach teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach. You've got the facilities, you're spending, but all this money to maintain them, do something with them, and like, no, the building's lock down, nobody's using the building until Sunday or unless you're using it for just you know, a lot of other activities. But if you got the ministerial staff and they're supposed to be ready to teach in season and out of season, they should. They should be wanting and hungry, and the Word of God should be like a fire, then why are they just not like, Okay, all right, Hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna be broadcasting for an hour, Robert, you want to broadcast later today? Yeah, okay, you got an idea, right, Hey, Hey, remember that curriculum we use. Hey, grab one of the one of the books and look and build something out of that. Okay, you go work on that. I'll go our boom gone.

1:01:16 I mean because I mean, if you're if you're paying a staff to be there, why, like, that's the way I envision it. So then the just teaching is flowing from that building, hour after hour, a week after week, boom boom, and so then you can say, hey, your money is producing all of this. I can't even imagine as a as a podcaster, one hundred thousand dollars a year that would go. That wouldn't that wouldn't be to maintain a building, that would just go for the broadcast.

1:01:56 I guess I could. I could take some of it as a quote unquote salary, I guess if you wanted to break it down. But even if I took even if I took twenty five thousand, took twenty five thousand from it for my yearly salary of twenty five thousand, and the rest went to the broadcast, that would be I mean, like you could do anything you want with the broadcat And again, I could produce five hours of teaching a day, which is more than almost any church anywhere. You know how many I'm not good at math, but five hours a day, seven days a week, how many hours a week would that be of teaching, what is your church producing for the amount of money it costs to keep it going. And if the church is saying that we can't do these discipleship and really equipping people from the pulpits so we need small groups. And then if the small groups are not meeting in the building, well then what is the building really there for now.

1:02:50 I know I'm throwing out a hypotheses that is probably very controversial, and people will say you're trying to undermine the church and you're no, I'm not. I'm just saying you have to consider, like, like, somebody has to at least think this through. I've said it so many times. I'll drive by churches and I'll be like, man, that's a nice building and there's nothing that all the lights are off and nobody's own and I'm like, that's a nice, big building. And so you'll look up their website and you're kind of like one. In some cases, I don't even have their sermons online, so I'm like, Okay, well that's wonderful, right. Or two, you'll listen to their sermons, You'll like that's what it Probably three hundred thousand dollars a year to keep that building going and that's what people are getting growing there, that's what they're getting. And it's not about whether I agree with the theology or disagree with the theology. See people are misunderstanding. It's about just how deep it is, the quality of it. What can I can completely disagree with something like whoa they went in that was good in depth teaching. I think it's completely wrong, but at least I can appreciate the work that went into it. And sometimes I'm just kind of like, I think they took their whole sermon from a you know, our Daily Bread devotional And then we find that many and then remember the plagiarism controversy, and then we found out that there's these services where a

1:04:22 pastor pays money to have their sermon basically given to them. Remember we did the Sermon in a Box miniseries where we bought a sermon, and then we listened to actual churches that had bought that same box and we could hear that they were basically reading it word for word. So now you're paying all this money for the church and the pastor is buying a sermons from some subscription service. The people in the building could buy the sermon themselves and just read it at home. Now you say, well, you've got a low view of the church. Well, if you're sacramental, then yeah, you've got to go to the church for the sacraments, right because there are means of grace.

1:05:09 If you're not sacramental, it's going to be very much easier to kind of go, what are we doing here? I think sacramental and the church. The church has the sacraments, and they're the ones who can give them. Then you don't care how much it costs for the building because you go there to get the sacraments. You go there to have those sacraments, which are a means of grace. Okay, well you can see then there would be a different approach. So according to the articles, the headline's very misleading. Small groups are the key. However, the statistics don't seem to support the headline, so I'm a little perplexed by that. The one thing I did discover is small groups now doesn't mean small groups outside the church. It means it now.

1:05:52 You may be going, well, duh, everyone knew this ten years ago. I didn't know it because I've never had small groups in my church. I'm like, we come to church to study. We're not going to now people. There have been people who argued for having small groups outside of the church. There are people who argued for that, and they wanted that, and they fought me. I'm like, we're already a small church. Just show up here and learn and stop wanting about it, you know, like it was, it was so frustrated, like why why how many more? I'm giving you all these hours there and then I'm coming home and spending hour after hour in front of a microphone. But yet you want a small group, and what you'd really and when you really wanted to know what they wanted. They just wanted to hang out with people and get to know people. They needed, They needed friendship, companionship.

1:06:35 I'm like, well, then just invite people over to your house. They don't need the church to structure it. Invite people over to your house and hang out. All right, there we go. I thought that was interesting. You can tell me what you think. It kind of fits some of our discussion we had the discussion about AI and how technology impacts the church, and again, technological advances. I was more those technological advances allowed me to be taught, learn and grow and again it was outside of the local church, and so maybe my experience has really greatly developed or greatly shaped my perspective here, and you may have a completely different one. I always give people the opportunity to let me know what they think, but again, over and over and over, people like, well, if I'm really being honest, this is where I learned, this is where I was discipled, and it wasn't their church. Every once in a while I'll get someone say it was my local church, and always like, okay, give me the name of that church and let me go listen to what you was discipling you so much. A lot of times nobody will provide me the name, because a lot of times I want to really go, wow, I want to hear what was going on in your church, right, because it sounds like it was amazing. Now I'm not saying it's not true.

1:07:56 It's just sometimes though, when you go you're kind of like, well, wait a minute, that's where you were getting your disay diciples. Like sometimes you just kind of like, I'm not really getting what was the what was that all about? But in some cases I may be blown away, But most so far everyone points to something other than their local church, which that only supports my you can say, twisted hypotheses, but there we go. Thanks for listening everyone, have a great evening. Just think, just today, just today, from this podcast alone, we have now been on the air for well, I think about two and a half hours, almost three hours, just this broadcast alone, this podcast alone, I've been on the air almost three hours. And it doesn't cost while between one hundred and fifty thousand to five hundred thousand dollars a year to operate. Maybe that's what has maybe negatively impacted my view. All right, thanks for listening. God bless