Sept. 18, 2024

Small Groups 2024

Small Groups 2024

A look at a recent article about small groups

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A look at a recent article about small groups

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Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is

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the Theology Central podcast, making Theology Central. Good afternoon everyone.

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It is Wednesday, September the eighteenth, twenty twenty four. It

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is currently four forty five pm Central Time, and I

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am coming to you live from the Theology Central studio

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located right here in Abilene, Texas. Now. Earlier today, from

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this studio, I was on the air for about ninety minutes, right,

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it was well over an hour, and it wasn't It

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wasn't very good, ladies and gentlemen. It was kind of

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a disaster. It was kind of a dumpster fire. It

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was kind of trash, right, And I know I know

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why it was because I have this philosophy, Right, I

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have a philosophy when it comes to doing reviews. Right,

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if I'm going to review something, I don't listen to

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it first, I grab it, and then I'm like, Okay,

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let's listen to this podcast, let's listen to this sermon,

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let's listen to this lecture, whatever it may be. And

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then I analyze, I critique, I offer my own perspective

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and so but it's happening in real time, right, My

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reactions are real they're not rehearsed. I'm not sitting there

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going ooh okay. Here comes the part that I really

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want to emphasize this, and no, it's happening in real time.

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Now I like that, right, because it's not me going

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to listen to something, take notes, and then come listen

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to it again as now I then offer the reaction

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the second time. That's just to me, no fun. It's

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much more fun. I want to listen to this. Let's

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listen to it live and react in real time. And

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now I have no safety net because I don't know

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what's going to happen. I don't know what's going to

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be said. So sometimes i'm you know, trying in real

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time to look something up or go well what about

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this or what about that? Or formulating my ideas in

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real time. So it's much more interesting for me. Hopefully

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it's more interesting for you. But there are times, because

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I have adopted this philosophy, that something negative is going

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to happen. We start listening to something and then all

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of a sudden we're like, well, wait a minute. They

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spent like thirty five minutes before they ever actually got

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to the topic. They spent twenty minutes radially, you know,

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listing all these prayer requests. They spent fifteen minutes with

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you know, playing music whatever, and we and I had

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no idea that was going to occur. So but at

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the same time, I know that's the philosophy I'm going with.

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So there are chances that's going to occur. But you

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have but I have to be honest, right when when

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the program just doesn't go the way you think it

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should have, you don't feel like you really did a

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good job. I don't think it was very beneficial. I

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don't know if it was very helpful. It may have

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been an actual waste of about ninety minutes. I have

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to face that and be willing to acknowledge that, right,

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we have to be willing to acknowledge that. I mean,

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that's I think that's kind of a key principle of Christianity,

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is being able to face yourself and acknowledge your own sin,

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your own failure, your own weakness, being able to see

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yourself accurately. I think that's a key element in Christianity.

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And so and I think the church, now this is

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where I'm transitioning, that the church has to be willing

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to look at itself and sometimes face some very uncomfortable truths,

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and sometimes the church at large doesn't want to hear

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anything that forces them to look at themselves. But on

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this broadcast, I try to be very honest about my

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own failures. Like my last broadcast, I see that as

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a failure. In fact, I almost did not upload it.

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I came very close to deleting it. I thought it

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was a mess, that was a train wreck, and it

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did not go very well. And I know the very

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reason why it happened because I've adopted a philosophy, an

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idea of doing reviews a very certain way. If I

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changed the way I did reviews, I could avoid that.

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But I'm unwilling to change that for the reasons I've

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already stated. I don't want my reviews to come across

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as rehearsed, as if they're produced, as if someone said, oh,

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you just went and found something that you just want

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to complain about. No, when we start a review, I

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have no idea where it's going, just like you, So

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no one can accuse me of having some agenda. All right,

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So there are reasons for my philosophy, But my philosophy

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leads to some of those very negative consequences, all right,

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But I'm willing to admit that. I have to be

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willing to admit that, and I think the church sometimes

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has to be willing to admit certain things. And on

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this program, I have raised questions about the church over

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and over and over again, and many people don't like

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my questions but constantly talk about and I'll just go

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and I'm not going to go through all the different

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things I've said. But here's a certain thing that has

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been brought up on this program countless times. Look at

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your church and ask yourself how much money it takes

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for that church to operate each year? What is the

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yearly cost to keep a church operating? And then ask yourself,

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so figure out the yearly cost, and then ask yourself,

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what are you getting for all of that money that

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it takes to keep it operating. And I have put

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forth the argument, the hypothesis that in most cases you

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are not getting anywhere anything close to the amount of

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money it takes to keep a church operating. What you're

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getting is not worth it. It's not worth the money.

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It's not worth This is just from a very purely

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I know you can say fleshly perspective, but I think

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I think that is very accurate to say. And I've

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done some things on this broad giving people the opportunity

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to tell me, hey, when it comes to your spiritual growth,

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when it comes to your discipleship, when it comes to

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the things that have helped you and have taught you

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the most, is it your local church or is it

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something else? And inevitably, over and over and again, over

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and over and again, when I asked this question, the

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response always is it was this broadcast, or it was

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this Now it may it may that broadcast, or those

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sermons may originate from a church, but it's not their

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local church. So there are countless people out there who

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they are being disciple taught and it's not coming from

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their local church. And I've talked about my own Christian life.

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So you look at the amount of money it takes

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uh local churches to operate, and then the people are

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actually being discipled, being taught, being fed by something other

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than their local church. That that should everyone should go.

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What's the problem. Let me let me just let me

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just give you an example, all right. The cost for

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an average sized church to operate annually can vary widely

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depending on several factors. Such as location, denomination, size of

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the congregation, and specific ministry needs. However, some general estimates

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can be provided based on common expenses, all right. So

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what I try to do is gather information, trying to

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get a basic an average. Now, it's not going to

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be anywhere perfect, and there's going to be wild differences

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depending Your church may fit into what this this estimate.

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Your church may be above this estimate, may be below it.

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But we're just trying to give a basic idea, all right,

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So here we go. Are you ready? Facilities cost? So

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the first thing is is the building itself, all right?

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Rent or mortgage somewhere between fifty thousand dollars to one

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hundred thousand dollars a year fifty thousand to one hundred

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thousand per year to keep a church building, all right. Now,

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it could be higher or it could be lower, depending

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on location. All right, So somewhere between fifty thousand to

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one hundred thousand. Somewhere between fifty thousand. I don't know

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why my voice is cracking. I'm hitting puberty. Between fifty

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thousand and one hundred thousand a year just to keep

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the building. That's just the building, Ladies and gentlemen, just

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if it's Wednesday, if you're getting ready to go to church,

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you're gonna get ready, you're gonna get a car, you're

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gonna drive. And that building, just that building you're getting

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ready to walk into, is costing somewhere between fifty to

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one hundred thousand. Now again sometimes lower, sometimes more. Now,

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just think about that fifty to one hundred thousand. What

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are you getting out of it? What are you really

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gaining from it? Utilities, electricity, water, et cetera. Between ten

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ten thousand to thirty thousand dollars a year, So you

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have between fifty thousand and one hundred thousand for the building.

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And then we had add utilities, water, et cetera. Somewhere

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between ten thousand to thirty thousand dollars a year for

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the building just to have electricity and have water and

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all the other types of things utilities that would fit

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within that category. Maintenance and repairs somewhere between five thousand

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and twenty thousand dollars per year. If you want, you

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can start adding all of this up between fifty to

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one hundred thousand for mortgage or rent, right between ten

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thousand to thirty thousand dollars a year for utilities and

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somewhere between five thousand and twenty thousand dollars per year

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simply for maintenance and repairs, Salaries and benefits somewhere between

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fifty thousand and seventy five thousand dollars a year. Now,

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this may vary based on experience and church size, but

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somewhere between fifty thousand and seventy five thousand dollars a year.

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Do you see all the money it takes just to

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keep the building, just to have someone, you know, someone's

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past This is just the pastor salary. Now, if you

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want additional staff, say a music director, youth pastor office staff,

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this is going to cost another thirty thousand to one

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hundred thousand dollars. Are you adding all of this up?

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Between fifty thousand to one hundred thousand for the rent mortgage,

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between ten to thirty thousand a year for utilities, between

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five thousand and twenty thousand for maintenance and repairs. For

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the pastor's salary, somewhere between fifty thousand to seventy five thousand.

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For additional staff music director, youth pastor office staff somewhere

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between thirty thousand and one hundred thousand, and benefits health,

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insurance or retirement between twenty thousand and fifty thousand. Now,

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ministry and outreach program costumes. You's got you get to

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have all of these programs, right, you gotta have programs well,

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youth and adult education between ten thousand to thirty thousand

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dollars a year for children's ministry, youth ministry and adult

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education if you want to do outreach somewhere between five

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thousand to twenty thousand. Operational expenses, office supplies, technology software

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between five thousand to fifteen thousand, insurance between five thousand

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to fifteen thousand, Legal accounting services between two thousand to

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ten thousand. Now, those are all things, and I could

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probably throw in other expenses as well. Right, So that's

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that's just really you're not that's not all. That's just

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describing is just the cost to keep the building open

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and operating. Now, what are the estimated total annual cost

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on the low end, on the very low end, it

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costs your church on the very low end. If your

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church is on the low end, between one hundred and

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fifty thousand and two hundred thousand dollars a year to

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stay open between one hundred and fifty thousand to two

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hundred thousand dollars a year to stay open. Try to

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wrap your mind around that. Just for the bill, we're

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we're not even talking about what's happening in the building,

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what people are actually getting, what people actually remember, how

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much they're learning, how much they're not learning. We're just

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talking to keep the building open. Basically, one hundred and

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fifty thousand to two hundred thousand dollars a year. Now,

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I want you to think, just write down one hundred,

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just right down, one hundred and fifty thousand dollars per year,

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and then ask yourself how much how many hours of

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teaching does your church produce annually? Just right down the

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hours of teaching your church produces annually, And then ask yourself,

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is that worth one hundred and fifty to two hundred

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thousand dollars a year? And that's on the low end,

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and how much of and again, what do you get

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from that teaching base on? Where are you getting most

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of your spiritual food? Now, the mid range if your

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church is in the mid range between two hundred and

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fifty thousand to three hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year.

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If your church is on the high end between four

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hundred thousand and five hundred thousand dollars a year. So

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from the low end, it's it's going to cost a

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church about one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year

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to stay open, and from the high end it's going

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to go all the way up to five one hundred

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thousand dollars a year. I just want you to ask yourself,

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what are you getting out of that? How many hours

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of teaching are they producing? Come on? What some of that?

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When you look at that, how much money, how much

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it costs, and you figure out what you're getting. And

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if you look at it, a lot of times your

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Sunday school is not even being taught by anyone who's paid.

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A lot of times your Sunday school teacher is not

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even unpaid staff. So then your pastor may only be

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only giving you maybe an hour if you're lucky, two

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hours period a week. It's costing almost two hundred thousand

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dollars for the church to operate, and you may get

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two hours of actual teaching a week from someone on

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paid staff. And a lot of times if you do

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small groups, which we're going to be talking about again,

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it's not in anyone on the paid staff. So a

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lot of the teaching is not even from people on

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the paid staff, but yet it's costing this much money.

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What are you getting now? Why am I talking about that? Why?

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Because just a few minutes ago I came up to

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the studio, sat down and said, Okay, the last broadcast

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was trash. I kind of want to go on and

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do maybe a part two and try to finish up

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and get some more out of that review. So we

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can I can say we accomplish something. But I don't

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want to take that risk. So what should I do?

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So I sat down and I was thinking. I was thinking.

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So I opened up my iPad, went to the Roy's

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Report and I saw a thing about small groups and

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I was like, oh boy, here we go, small groups

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in twenty twenty four. All right, and if you know

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anything about my frustration with small groups, let me try

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to explain some of my frustration about small groups. So right,

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not in every church, but in many churches I have

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watched this take place. The small groups do not occur

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inside the building that is costing somewhere between one hundred

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and fifty to five hundred thousand dollars a year to stay,

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to keep open, right, So you have small groups, they're

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not even meeting inside the building that you're paying all

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this money for. They're meeting in people's homes. So in

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many cases, I've literally saw this happen. So the church

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may have like some kind of you know, nursery, daycare

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kind of thing going so that people can drive to

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the church to drop off their kids, then they can

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drive to a house to go to the small group

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so that they can drive back to the church. I'm like,

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that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in my life.

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If you're going to do small groups, and you're already

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coming to the church to drop off the kids for

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some type of daycare or youth program, then just do

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the small groups within the building, right, Because you're paying

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between one hundred and fifty to five hundred thousand dollars

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to keep the building open. If you're not going to

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use the stink buildings, sell the property and just break

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everything into small groups, it makes no sense. So that's

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my already my frustration. My second frustration is that over

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and over and over what I hear is you there

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cannot be real discipleship if people really are going to grow,

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if they're really going to learn, they need small groups.

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So then I'm always like, well, then what in the

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world is going on inside the building. If small groups

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is the key to my spiritual growth, if small groups

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is the key to discipleship, if small groups is the

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answer to everything, then shut the building down, get rid

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of the stink in building. Stop spending five hundred thousand

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dollars or one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year

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to keep a building open. When you're telling me what

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happens in the building is not really doing the job.

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What's really doing the job is small groups. And I've

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heard pastors say that, well, I can't really do that

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kind of teaching. We can't really go that in depth

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from the pulpit. We do that in the small groups. Well,

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then I know people who go to small groups and

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I'm like, what did you do in small group? That

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was your great lesson? That's the great in depth doctrinal teaching.

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It sounds like you had a little bit of food,

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had some snacks, talked about the weather, sung a few songs,

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and had a devotional. So I've always been somewhat critical

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of everybody's like small group, small groups, small groups, small grip.

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I've heard that since the nineteen ninetyes. Small groups is

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the answer, Small groups is the answer. Small groups, And

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I want to scream, If small groups is a stinking answer,

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then get rid of the stinking church. Just become a

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small group. Oh but we got to have this building,

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we got to have this building. Well, why are you

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gonna pay between one hundred and fifty thousand, five hundred

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thousand dollars a year when you're telling me that the

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real where the real work happens, where the real teaching happens,

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where the real discipleship happens, is not inside the church.

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It's someone's living room. No sense. And if that's where

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all the teaching is, then why do you record your

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stinking sermons and put them online? Record the small group teaching?

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Because supposedly the small group teaching is where it's all at.

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So if it costs between one hundred and fifty thousand

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to five hundred thousand dollars a year to keep a

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church operating, then what are we getting from it? I've

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been asking that question over and over. Well, here we go.

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Here's the headline. It was published September seventeenth, twenty twenty four.

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At seven twenty am Central Time, So yesterday morning this

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was published headline survey small groups remain the key aspect

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of churches discipleship ministry. So what's the key aspect of

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a church's discipleship? Small groups? Small groups, not the pulpit,

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small groups. What in the world is the pulpit doing?

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Isn't the pulpit where Christians are to be equipped? So

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they're no longer children tossed to and fro with every

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wind of doctrine. If you're not doing the work from

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the pulpit, and you're doing it in small groups, and

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that's the key, then get rid of the stinking church.

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I don't understand it. So let's spend a little time

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exploring this article. Are you ready? Here we go. So

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they start a story about someone visiting a friend in

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England in the late seventeen hundreds. His name was Robert.

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I'm gonna say, Rakes are aik ees. If I'm mispronouncing that,

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I apologize. I did not look up to listen to

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how to state it correctly. But Robert Rakes he encountered

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children cursing, gambling and fighting in the streets. He was horrified,

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but a local woman told him it was even worse

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on Sundays, the children's one day off each week from

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the factory. Determining to help the children in that situation

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learn to read and learn about God who loved them,

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he founded the first Sunday school in seventeen eighty. So

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the first Sunday school seventeen eighty, seventeen hundred years after

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the beginning of Christianity, is the first Sunday school. I wonder, like,

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how do how does that impact you at all? Like

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what we've got to have Sunday school? We got to

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do things a certain way, but the first one doesn't

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show up to seventeen eighty does that act? Like? So wait,

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so how should we actually be doing things? All? Right? Well,

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much has changed in the past two hundred and fifty years.

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Churches are still using some form of small group discipleship

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to help children and adults grow in their faith, and

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most churches still use the term Sunday school to describe

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at least part of their ministry. Okay, so typically when

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I hear the term small groups, I don't think Sunday

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school because small groups what I have seen there are

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things that happen on whatever or not. Maybe you get

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rid of your Sunday evening services and you go to

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small groups, or you get rid of your Wednesday evening

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services and you go to small groups. And the small

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groups happen outside of the church, and whoever is leading

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the small group is almost never paid staff. They're not

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getting a salary. So you you so, all the money

365
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has cost to hire that pastor, he's not even doing

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the teaching. It's given to someone in the group. Now,

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this is this is my So I separate small groups

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from Sunday School. But let's start with Sunday School. Let's

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start with Sunday School. All right, My, this is me

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my experience in Sunday School in churches other than one church.

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One church was different, and that one church impacts the

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way I decided to do Sunday School when I became

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a pastor, all right, and I'm so glad of that church,

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even though things kind of went bad, I am very

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grateful for what I learned there. And I'll explain, right, so,

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and my estimation what I found. And this started off

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as a teenager, right, So, when I became saved. As

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a teenager, I walked into the youth group and I'm like,

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this is an absolute, complete and total joke. I'm not

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going to spend any time here. I could sit at

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home and hit myself in the head with a baseball

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bat and it'd be more productive than going to the

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stinking youth Department Sundays. What is this? This is a joke.

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It's ridiculous. It's no, I'm not going to go there.

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And now you can say you you were arrogant and condescending.

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Maybe I was, but I was a brand new Christian

387
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and it was a joke. I wasn't going to learn

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anything there. It was about being I don't know what

389
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it was. It was. It was ridiculous. So I volunteered

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myself to go to the adult Sunday school class. So

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I went to the adult Sunday school class. The adult

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Sunday School class had I've got one here. What would

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we call the Sunday School Quarterly. We would get these

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quarterly booklets, right, and they would give you know, the

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session one, session two, give this scriptures. And so I

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got one. I took that thing home. Man, I went

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through that thing like I was studying for my finals, right.

398
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I went through. I had highlighters, I had marks, I

399
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was writing cross references. I was looking up every scripture.

400
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I tore through that thing all week, like everything we

401
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were gonna be studying. I came to Sunday School and

402
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I'm like, okay, I'm with the adults now, man, all right,

403
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I'm not with those ridiculous teenagers. Even though I was

404
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a teenager. I'm not with those foolish, ignorant teenagers who

405
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don't care about anything. And they, I mean, it's ridiculous.

406
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Now I'm with the adults. We're gonna talk doctrine, we're

407
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gonna talk theology, we're gonna dig into scripture. Oh, this

408
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is gonna be great. And I come running in and

409
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it was an absolute total joke. The Sunday School teacher

410
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was not prepared. The whole thing was useless. It was

411
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a waste of time. And now I've told the story

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a million times. I was an arrogant, condescending jerk, and

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so I basically mocked the Sunday School teacher for being clueless,

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not being prepared, and obviously I hadn't even read that

415
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week's less and I was like, you're basically a joke,

416
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and this is a waste of my stinking time. I

417
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could sit at home and listen to sermons on Christian

418
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radio and get more than I'm getting from this ridiculous

419
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Sunday school class. I'm not here to hold hand seen

420
00:25:12.519 --> 00:25:16.079
kumbaya and hear about the weather or about your job

421
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or whatever you want to talk about. I thought we

422
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were coming to study. I thought the Bible was this

423
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great thing to see inspired word of God. Oh yeah,

424
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it's so important. And then I get here and it's

425
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like this is a joke. There's a waste of time,

426
00:25:29.960 --> 00:25:34.920
people in and out, getting coffee and donuts, and it's

427
00:25:35.000 --> 00:25:37.039
just like, I don't even know what the point was.

428
00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:40.440
It was like a waste of time. Now I know

429
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I was very negative, very negative. So I leave that.

430
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:48.799
Now I go to a Lutheran church. The Lutheran Church

431
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on Sundays. Did we even have a Sunday school. I

432
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think we had a Sunday school. We had a Sunday school,

433
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and I guess it was pretty good. I think the

434
00:25:55.559 --> 00:25:58.599
pastor actually taught the Sunday school class. It was pretty good.

435
00:25:58.759 --> 00:26:01.480
It was much better than the Baptist one. It was

436
00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:04.640
only doctrinal. At least you could tell someone was somewhat prepared.

437
00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:07.720
It was. It was okay. I don't remember anything from it.

438
00:26:07.720 --> 00:26:10.440
It wasn't anything great, but I did. I was very

439
00:26:10.519 --> 00:26:13.000
I was. I was better off when I first became

440
00:26:13.039 --> 00:26:18.079
a Lutheran. I think during uh maybe maybe it was Wednesdays,

441
00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:21.680
there was some day of the week they had basically catechises.

442
00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:25.400
We're going through LU Luther's Catechism, and so there there,

443
00:26:25.440 --> 00:26:28.279
I did benefit greatly from that, all right. So, but

444
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:31.160
I don't really remember much about Sunday School. I mean,

445
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:33.440
basically all you had really is the Sunday morning service.

446
00:26:33.480 --> 00:26:36.039
You had nothing on Sunday night. I think Wednesday night

447
00:26:36.079 --> 00:26:38.079
you did kind of a little Bible study. There wasn't

448
00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:40.640
really much offered during the week, and that was one

449
00:26:40.680 --> 00:26:44.079
of my frustrations with Lutheranism. I'm like, once again, how

450
00:26:44.119 --> 00:26:46.079
much are we paying to keep this building going? I mean,

451
00:26:46.079 --> 00:26:48.799
the building is beautiful, the building is nice, the sanctuary

452
00:26:49.160 --> 00:26:51.559
is gorgeous. How much money is it costing to keep

453
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:54.200
this building open for basically one hour a week of

454
00:26:54.240 --> 00:26:57.119
teaching and the sermon was about twenty minutes. I'm like,

455
00:26:57.359 --> 00:26:59.839
so even there, I was. I was I remember I

456
00:27:00.160 --> 00:27:02.440
was still a teenager and I was calling like every

457
00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:05.079
Lutheran church within fifty miles, going, do you have anything

458
00:27:05.119 --> 00:27:09.079
going on, anything, anything, anything. I'll take anything. I don't

459
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:12.119
care what it is. Give me something that nobody had anything.

460
00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:13.640
It was, it was. It was such a it was

461
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:18.200
such a joke. So then I joined the military and

462
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:22.160
I end up in Belleview, Nebraska. Omaha, Nebraska was where

463
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:24.759
the military base was. I was living in Bellevue, Nebraska,

464
00:27:25.039 --> 00:27:27.279
and then we ultimately found myself. I won't go through

465
00:27:27.279 --> 00:27:30.119
the whole story, but at a church and Papilion, Nebraska,

466
00:27:30.240 --> 00:27:34.160
twin cities, independent Fundamental Baptist church. And this was the

467
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:36.799
first time, all of a sudden, I loved it because

468
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:41.119
Sunday school was the pastor standing behind the pulpit and

469
00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:48.680
taught for one full hour. The pastor taught, and then

470
00:27:48.920 --> 00:27:50.720
we would take a break, and then we'd go into

471
00:27:50.759 --> 00:27:54.680
morning worship and the pastor taught for one full hour,

472
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:56.599
and then we would go home, and then we would

473
00:27:56.640 --> 00:27:58.839
come back on Wednesday, and the pastor would teach for

474
00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:02.440
all about four minutes, about forty minutes, forty five minutes.

475
00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:06.480
And so we had Sunday School Sunday morning, Sunday night.

476
00:28:06.519 --> 00:28:08.680
If I forgot I think I did a failed to

477
00:28:08.720 --> 00:28:11.000
mention Sunday night, Sunday night, another full hour of teaching

478
00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:12.920
and Wednesday night and all of it was the pastor

479
00:28:13.119 --> 00:28:16.319
and he taught all of it. And that was like, Wow,

480
00:28:16.799 --> 00:28:19.920
this is the way it should be. This should be great.

481
00:28:20.400 --> 00:28:22.799
Now I end up leaving that church for a host

482
00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:25.640
of reasons, end up in another church in Bellevue, Nebraska.

483
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:28.559
Once again. Now I'm back in a Sunday school class.

484
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:35.759
And typically the Sunday School class was Hey, this for

485
00:28:35.920 --> 00:28:39.880
this quarter or whatever, we're gonna be using this book.

486
00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:42.200
We're gonna be using this. I said, you had to

487
00:28:42.200 --> 00:28:44.640
buy a book, right to be a book MacArthur or whomever,

488
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:47.160
and then you were supposed to read a chapter and

489
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:48.960
then show up to Sunday school to discuss it. Well,

490
00:28:49.000 --> 00:28:51.599
guess what I found, Over and over and over, nobody

491
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:55.039
was reading anything. Nobody was really prepared to have the discussion.

492
00:28:55.240 --> 00:29:00.519
It was an absolute waste of my time. It was

493
00:29:00.599 --> 00:29:03.599
a waste of time. I could have read the book

494
00:29:03.640 --> 00:29:06.839
and talked to myself about it. Sunday School was an

495
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:12.039
absolute waste of time. So my experiences with Sunday School

496
00:29:12.480 --> 00:29:14.960
typically was whenever and there are other times I was

497
00:29:14.960 --> 00:29:17.200
in Sunday School, but most of the time it was

498
00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:20.279
either this, everyone's sitting around in like a semi circle,

499
00:29:20.640 --> 00:29:23.200
and then everyone gets to tell what they think the

500
00:29:23.240 --> 00:29:27.000
text means. And it's just like this is it's like

501
00:29:27.039 --> 00:29:30.640
a free for all of heretical nonsense. I mean, and

502
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:33.480
it's just a free for all for hermeneutical craziness. And

503
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:36.160
it's like and I'm just sitting there going, what is happening?

504
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:39.720
What are you talking about? That's not? Oh my goodness,

505
00:29:39.720 --> 00:29:42.640
what is going on? How is it? I can't handle

506
00:29:42.720 --> 00:29:44.559
this because what do you do? Do You sit there

507
00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:46.960
and correct everyone? Well, that's not correct, So you just

508
00:29:46.960 --> 00:29:49.119
sit there and let people and you hope you're looking

509
00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:56.200
to the Sunday school teacher like uh uh uh never mind,

510
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:58.240
and so that I wouldn't correct anybody, and then I

511
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:05.119
would just leave frustrated. I experience Sunday school a disaster,

512
00:30:05.440 --> 00:30:08.119
and my and my experience. You may have better, but

513
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.960
in my case it's not. And again, and typically it's

514
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:14.160
being taught by someone who's not even on the paid staff.

515
00:30:15.240 --> 00:30:18.519
So we're paying one hundred and fifty to five hundred

516
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:21.400
thousand dollars a year for a volunteer to try to

517
00:30:21.440 --> 00:30:25.200
teach Sunday school. That in many cases is more I

518
00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:28.119
don't know what it's supposed to be, So they mentioned

519
00:30:28.119 --> 00:30:31.119
Sunday School. Now, the small groups I ever attended was

520
00:30:31.160 --> 00:30:33.480
the same kind of It was basically like Sunday School,

521
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:36.400
except it was a little bit more like casual in

522
00:30:36.440 --> 00:30:39.079
the sense that, well, you have to have snacks, maybe

523
00:30:39.079 --> 00:30:41.400
sing a song, everyone talking, you know, you do the

524
00:30:41.480 --> 00:30:44.319
ice breaker where everyone goes around answering some random question.

525
00:30:45.200 --> 00:30:47.160
And then it was a lot again of so what

526
00:30:47.200 --> 00:30:48.759
do you think? And what do you think? And what

527
00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:50.359
do you think? And what do you think? And what

528
00:30:50.359 --> 00:30:52.759
do you think? And you get fifteen ideas of what

529
00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:55.400
everyone thinks, but in many cases you don't really get

530
00:30:55.400 --> 00:30:58.079
an idea of what the text actually says. And it

531
00:30:58.160 --> 00:31:00.400
was shallow and not very in depth. Whether you call

532
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:03.599
it Sunday school or small groups, I've got a problem.

533
00:31:03.599 --> 00:31:08.599
But this is saying, hey, hey, this is according to them,

534
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:12.680
small groups is the key aspect of a church discipleship ministry.

535
00:31:12.680 --> 00:31:16.599
So here's what they go on to provide. Right. According

536
00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:20.039
to LifeWay Research study of US Protestant churches with ongoing

537
00:31:20.039 --> 00:31:23.599
adult Bible study groups, fifty six percent says the label

538
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:26.960
Sunday school describes at least part of their groups ministry.

539
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:30.319
Almost three and four seventy two percent say they're comfortable

540
00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:33.000
with others referring to their groups as adult Bible studies.

541
00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:36.079
Around two and five thirty nine percent say small groups.

542
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:39.720
So they go through the different titles they have for it, right,

543
00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:43.599
so there's different terminology has changed, right, But to me,

544
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:46.640
if it's Sunday morning and it's at church, it's Sunday School,

545
00:31:46.799 --> 00:31:49.960
And if it's a small group outside of church, then

546
00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:53.319
it's a small group. That's typically the way I identify them.

547
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:55.799
And when I read books about small groups. When I

548
00:31:55.799 --> 00:31:58.319
first started learning about the concept, it was the idea

549
00:31:58.359 --> 00:32:00.759
of doing it outside a church, doing it side of church,

550
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:03.359
and it was more for evangelism than it was supposed

551
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:08.000
to be discipleship. But I digress, all right. When it

552
00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:10.759
comes to Bible study groups, it's less about the name

553
00:32:10.839 --> 00:32:13.119
we give the ministry and more about what the groups

554
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:17.319
actually do, said Ken Braddy, director of Sunday School and

555
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:22.039
Network Partnership at LifeWay. Now please note LifeWay has a

556
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:26.599
vested interest in promoting small groups and Sunday School because

557
00:32:26.680 --> 00:32:34.440
LifeWay I have right here sell a ton of their

558
00:32:34.519 --> 00:32:39.200
quarterly study guides. They make their money off these I

559
00:32:39.200 --> 00:32:42.400
look right here, LifeWay adults, this is Bible Studies for

560
00:32:42.480 --> 00:32:48.359
Life Personal Study Guide, Fall twenty twenty three. They do

561
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:50.920
you know the amount of money churches pay for these

562
00:32:50.960 --> 00:32:55.079
things that nobody typically really does much with. So LifeWay

563
00:32:55.160 --> 00:32:58.640
wants to. Obviously they're going to promote it because that's

564
00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:03.599
their business model. Hey, churches, get your curriculum, buy it now,

565
00:33:03.960 --> 00:33:07.079
and curriculum costs are saying. Look, the next time you're

566
00:33:07.079 --> 00:33:09.440
at church, just ask your church how much money is

567
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:14.240
spent annually on curriculum. How much money is and then

568
00:33:14.279 --> 00:33:16.759
ask yourself all that money and then walk around the

569
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:18.960
church and ask people what they do with that curriculum,

570
00:33:19.240 --> 00:33:22.200
what they're learning from it. Do they get a study guide?

571
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.079
Do they even know where their study guide is for

572
00:33:24.119 --> 00:33:27.039
that quarter? Have they read it? Have they used it?

573
00:33:27.119 --> 00:33:30.200
What you'll find is most of that money spent on curriculum.

574
00:33:31.400 --> 00:33:33.680
You would have a I know this is going to

575
00:33:33.720 --> 00:33:36.920
be self serving, but I'm being somewhat sarcastic here. Churches

576
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:43.319
would be better off sending me the money because you're

577
00:33:43.359 --> 00:33:45.880
just buying study guys that nobody actually uses. And I

578
00:33:45.960 --> 00:33:48.680
went through that same frustration in my little church trying

579
00:33:48.720 --> 00:33:51.359
to put devotional and study guides in people's hands, and

580
00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:55.359
then you realize nobody's using them, nobody's looking at them.

581
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:59.039
Why are we spending the stinking money? Forget it? I

582
00:33:59.079 --> 00:34:01.039
almost sometimes I wanted to get a weird taking, like,

583
00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:02.839
look if nobody's going to spend the money on the

584
00:34:02.839 --> 00:34:05.079
things we're using. Not only did I stop getting them,

585
00:34:05.160 --> 00:34:07.279
I wanted to say, then just give me a pay

586
00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:09.719
raise for crying out loud, right, give me a couple

587
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:12.400
one hundred dollars a month. Right, I'll just use it

588
00:34:12.440 --> 00:34:21.760
for whatever I want to use it for. All right, So,

589
00:34:21.760 --> 00:34:25.559
so what these groups? What? When these groups gather, leaders

590
00:34:25.559 --> 00:34:27.920
are most likely to say they want the primary focus

591
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:32.239
to be on studying scripture. Almost half forty six percent

592
00:34:32.280 --> 00:34:36.039
of adult Bible study group ministries leaders say Bible study

593
00:34:36.320 --> 00:34:39.519
is the highest objective for the groups. Now that is

594
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:45.039
absolutely frightening. Only forty Now the article is presenting it

595
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:47.880
in a positive way. I think that's frightening. So you

596
00:34:47.960 --> 00:34:51.960
take all the churches for only forty six percent of

597
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:57.199
the leaders say the primary focus is studying scripture. Less

598
00:34:57.239 --> 00:35:01.000
than half say the primary focus of a small group

599
00:35:01.159 --> 00:35:04.719
is to study scripture. Then don't tell me the small

600
00:35:04.800 --> 00:35:07.760
groups are the key to learning and the create key

601
00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:10.960
to discipleship. When less than fifty percent of the leaders

602
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:17.599
say that's the key aspect of it, it means the

603
00:35:17.639 --> 00:35:22.320
whole thing's a fraud. Whole thing's a scam. If not

604
00:35:22.400 --> 00:35:25.280
even half we'll say that the key element is studying

605
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:28.480
the Bible, then the small group is a social function.

606
00:35:28.840 --> 00:35:32.840
It's to meet friends, hold hands and talk about life.

607
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:35.480
And that's great if that's what you need, but don't

608
00:35:35.480 --> 00:35:37.960
make it a ministry of the church. Say hey, I'm

609
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:40.079
gonna get I'm gonna have get togethers at my house

610
00:35:40.119 --> 00:35:42.039
so that we can come over and talk about life

611
00:35:42.039 --> 00:35:45.079
and do life together and share our problems and concerns

612
00:35:45.239 --> 00:35:47.320
and talk about the fun things, the good things that

613
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:49.280
we can cry together and life together, and we can

614
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.239
play some games, eat some food, and do whatever great

615
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.480
go do it. It's not the part of the church.

616
00:35:55.800 --> 00:35:58.000
The church is to be equipping saints. And if only

617
00:35:58.679 --> 00:36:01.920
forty six percent of small group leaders say that the

618
00:36:02.039 --> 00:36:05.079
key as in fact, you use their exact words, that

619
00:36:05.159 --> 00:36:08.400
the primary focus is studying scripture, then the whole small

620
00:36:08.400 --> 00:36:11.239
group concept has all gone off the rails and the

621
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:18.199
whole thing's a fraud. So forty six percent of adult

622
00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:21.239
Bible study group leaders say Bible study is the highest objective.

623
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:26.079
Fewers say the primary purpose is intentional discipleship making or equipping.

624
00:36:26.360 --> 00:36:32.159
So only sixteen percent say that it's about discipleship or equipping.

625
00:36:32.639 --> 00:36:36.800
Only sixteen percent. So but wait a minute, remember the

626
00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:40.280
headline of the article, Hey, small groups are still the

627
00:36:40.360 --> 00:36:43.119
key to discipleship. Well not when only sixteen percent of

628
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:46.280
the small group leaders say it's about discipleship or equipping.

629
00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:53.480
Fourteen percent say worship relationship and community fellowship is twelve percent,

630
00:36:54.000 --> 00:36:57.679
ministry service is seven percent, and an outreach in evangelism

631
00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:01.840
only five percent. Now, I was in the nineties, even

632
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:05.880
at Grace University, we had a special week long thing

633
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:10.280
about small groups and it was like evangelism. Evangelism. Some

634
00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:12.800
people feel uncomfortable coming to a church, but if you'll

635
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:14.920
have a study in your home, you'll be more likely

636
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.679
to come there. Well, only five percent say evangelism is

637
00:37:17.679 --> 00:37:24.480
the key, so all of that was a lie as well.

638
00:37:25.159 --> 00:37:30.920
All right, Now, churches are most likely to rank Bible

639
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:33.280
study as the top priority for groups, But again it's

640
00:37:33.320 --> 00:37:38.880
only forty six percent on average, churches have seven ongoing

641
00:37:38.920 --> 00:37:41.920
Bible study groups for adults, with an average of sixty

642
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:47.159
nine weekly participants in a three month period. Average churches

643
00:37:47.199 --> 00:37:49.880
see ninety one individuals connect with a small group Bible

644
00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:53.840
study at least once. Around two and five worship attendees

645
00:37:54.840 --> 00:37:58.320
at the church, forty four percent also typically participate in

646
00:37:58.320 --> 00:38:01.280
small groups. A third of churches, thirty three percent say

647
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:03.880
at most a quarter of their worship service attendants involved

648
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:07.920
in an ongoing Bible study. Another third thirty four percent,

649
00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:10.199
say they are more than a quarter, but no more

650
00:38:10.239 --> 00:38:12.480
than half. The final thirty three percent have at least

651
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:15.719
half of their worship attendees involved in a small group ministry.

652
00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:18.480
Fourteen percent who say more than three and four attend

653
00:38:18.559 --> 00:38:21.119
both the worship service and small group. So what you

654
00:38:21.239 --> 00:38:23.280
have is you have some who will attend the worship

655
00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:25.400
service but won't attend the small group, and you have

656
00:38:25.480 --> 00:38:27.840
some who attend the small groups but then don't attend

657
00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:30.320
the worship service. So what do you I don't even

658
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:33.239
understand that then the concept? So are you just dividing

659
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:37.639
the church into the worship attenders versus the small group attenders?

660
00:38:38.840 --> 00:38:40.599
Why don't you just have people come to church I mean,

661
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:42.840
you're paying between one hundred and fifty thousand to five

662
00:38:42.920 --> 00:38:45.760
hundred thousand dollars a year for the building. Why don't

663
00:38:45.760 --> 00:38:47.639
you to have people there? Now, in some cases they're

664
00:38:47.639 --> 00:38:52.760
identifying people as small group as a Sunday School. Well,

665
00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:54.679
I do know that lots of people do not show

666
00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:57.159
up for Sunday School, but will show up for church.

667
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:00.199
And then it's like, well, then why are we doing?

668
00:39:02.679 --> 00:39:08.519
Why are we even doing Sunday School. I mean, I've

669
00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:11.280
watched that over my Christian life. I've always been baffled

670
00:39:11.280 --> 00:39:14.800
by that. Sunday School starts, attend the morning worship at eleven,

671
00:39:15.199 --> 00:39:17.760
and then you'll see Sunday School. Fifty percent of the

672
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:22.000
church is missing. Oh I'm sorry, you can't be bothered

673
00:39:22.000 --> 00:39:24.239
to come to Sunday School. I'm sorry, Just I know,

674
00:39:24.440 --> 00:39:26.880
I know the requirement is just way too much. Now,

675
00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:28.840
I understand for health reasons some people may not be

676
00:39:28.880 --> 00:39:32.360
able to attend, but in some cases it's just absolutely maddening.

677
00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:40.159
Involvement in worship and small groups are not in competition.

678
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:44.360
Studies have shown participating in ongoing Bible study boasters worship attendance.

679
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:47.280
So see, that's the key. If you have a small group.

680
00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:50.639
Then the key is it will ultimately translate into getting

681
00:39:50.679 --> 00:39:54.000
them into the worship service. Right, That's always been the strategy,

682
00:39:54.159 --> 00:40:02.960
all right. Almost every church leader ninety three percent says

683
00:40:02.960 --> 00:40:06.079
their ongoing groups are meeting at least weekly, including eighty

684
00:40:06.119 --> 00:40:08.119
five percent who say once a week in eight and

685
00:40:08.199 --> 00:40:10.480
eight percent more than once a week. Fewer say they

686
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:13.159
gather every two weeks five percent or or or once

687
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:16.519
a month. So basically almost ninety three percent say they

688
00:40:16.559 --> 00:40:18.880
happen at least once a week, and some more than

689
00:40:18.920 --> 00:40:22.239
once a week. All right, so they happen weekly For

690
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:26.960
around three quarters seventy three percent, these gatherings happen basically

691
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:29.960
all year long. Almost half forty seven percent say they

692
00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:32.280
meet all year one another twenty six percent say they

693
00:40:32.280 --> 00:40:34.760
meet all year except a few holidays. One in five

694
00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:38.440
nineteen percent take the summers off but otherwise meet the

695
00:40:38.440 --> 00:40:40.880
rest of the year. Fewer groups ministry leaders say they

696
00:40:40.960 --> 00:40:43.760
meet for two semesters of two to three months or

697
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:47.679
three similar link periods, so basically they go basically. The

698
00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:50.920
majority go around all year, so all year small groups

699
00:40:50.920 --> 00:40:55.760
are occurring, right. More than nine to ten leaders have

700
00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:59.960
groups gathering at the church building or whatever location of

701
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:03.639
congregation meets in, all right, So that's so that's that's

702
00:41:03.639 --> 00:41:07.440
a positive now seeing my experience, they happen outside the church.

703
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:12.880
The statistics say that my perception is wrong, that most

704
00:41:12.960 --> 00:41:16.079
happen inside the church. But I think the reason why

705
00:41:16.239 --> 00:41:19.679
is that they're classifying Sunday School as a small group,

706
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:23.320
so that this is where you get into statistics. So

707
00:41:23.840 --> 00:41:26.280
my mind, small groups was always done outside the church

708
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:28.679
because that was not a Sunday School, was not considered

709
00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:31.400
a small group. It was considered Sunday School. But they've

710
00:41:31.519 --> 00:41:35.159
changed that. So these statistics may be giving kind of

711
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:39.119
a not the picture that I am seeing because I

712
00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:43.599
don't I don't call Sunday School a small group, all right,

713
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:47.039
Fewer than one in three, say, at least some group

714
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:51.920
meets in homes, others use various off campus locations. On average,

715
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:56.119
four and five groups meet at the church. So that's good.

716
00:41:56.199 --> 00:41:59.239
That's a good thing, right, I will look if you're

717
00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:03.280
using that now, well I can't applaud yet. If you're

718
00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:05.840
calling Sunday School the small group, well then of course

719
00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:08.679
it's going to meet at church, so great. But if

720
00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:11.280
you have small groups not meeting at church, well then

721
00:42:11.280 --> 00:42:13.199
that's where I would be like, well, why are we

722
00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:18.599
paying for the building? All right? Three and ten say

723
00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:22.679
their groups exclusively meet before or after their weekly worship service. See,

724
00:42:22.719 --> 00:42:25.760
so that's why they're happening at the church. Another thirty

725
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:27.960
five percent of the church meets in any day or

726
00:42:28.039 --> 00:42:30.559
night of the week other than when they regularly gather

727
00:42:30.599 --> 00:42:34.440
at worship. A similar percentage say they have group gatherings

728
00:42:34.440 --> 00:42:38.119
before or after the service and other times during the week.

729
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:42.599
All right, So again they have it's an interesting evolution

730
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.599
of terms because they are basically referring to small group

731
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:54.679
here as Sunday school as Sunday school. They've got so

732
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:59.719
many statistics here, all right, Well, they just kind of

733
00:42:59.719 --> 00:43:02.239
give a all of that breakdown. Remember the headline was

734
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:06.440
small groups remain key aspect of church discipleship ministry. So

735
00:43:06.679 --> 00:43:09.679
let's break this down. Let's break this down. Let's break

736
00:43:09.679 --> 00:43:13.719
this down. Average cost for a church to operate is

737
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:15.719
between one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year to

738
00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:21.000
five hundred thousand dollars a year, all right, which is insane,

739
00:43:21.519 --> 00:43:26.800
right crazy. Now, once you have that, what are you

740
00:43:26.840 --> 00:43:30.119
getting from it? What are you getting from it? Now?

741
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:35.639
First you start with the preaching. How many sermons do

742
00:43:35.719 --> 00:43:38.400
you get for one hundred and fifty to five hundred

743
00:43:38.400 --> 00:43:42.199
thousand dollars a year? How many sermons? How many sermons?

744
00:43:43.280 --> 00:43:47.519
Many churches cancel services for all kinds of things. Holidays,

745
00:43:47.840 --> 00:43:50.440
they may get rid of a service for summer. They

746
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:54.000
may have to cancel sometimes for weather, they may all So,

747
00:43:54.440 --> 00:43:56.039
are you already going to you're not gonna get a

748
00:43:56.079 --> 00:43:58.920
sermon every week because many churches are. There's gonna be

749
00:43:58.960 --> 00:44:00.960
weeks that there's not going to be a sermon, all right,

750
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:02.960
So you already know you're not gonna get one sermon

751
00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:05.360
per week, so you're already gonna be less than that. Now,

752
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:08.679
in some churches you do get Sunday school, Sunday morning,

753
00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:12.000
Sunday night, and Wednesday from the pastor himself. So you're

754
00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:16.239
basically getting you know, you're getting three you're getting four

755
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:20.079
hours per week of in depth, hopefully in depth teaching. Okay, Now,

756
00:44:20.119 --> 00:44:22.800
that's gonna make that one hundred and fifty to five

757
00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:28.519
hundred thousand seem a lot more a lot. It's gonna

758
00:44:28.519 --> 00:44:31.199
at least be appear to be more worth it, if

759
00:44:31.280 --> 00:44:33.440
that makes some sense. But you've got plenty of churches.

760
00:44:33.440 --> 00:44:37.199
When I moved back to Texas from Nebraska, I was shocked.

761
00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:40.840
I was shocked because we couldn't find churches that would

762
00:44:40.840 --> 00:44:46.039
have a Sunday night service, and We're like, what in

763
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:48.440
the world? So we get Sunday morning night, and then

764
00:44:48.480 --> 00:44:50.880
Wednesday night in many cases was really not much. Now,

765
00:44:50.920 --> 00:44:53.280
some would offer some kind of small group right that

766
00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:55.800
was a meeting in someone's house that when you would attend,

767
00:44:55.800 --> 00:44:58.480
you would be like, I don't want anything to do

768
00:44:58.599 --> 00:45:01.199
with this is nonsense. And so in many cases the

769
00:45:01.239 --> 00:45:03.760
Sunday school wasn't from the pastor it was just whatever

770
00:45:04.199 --> 00:45:06.840
and then and then no Sunday night or Wednesday. And

771
00:45:06.880 --> 00:45:10.559
I'd be like, well, basically, what this church is telling

772
00:45:10.599 --> 00:45:12.440
me that if I'm going to do any if I'm

773
00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:15.960
actually going to guide my family spiritually, I'm going to

774
00:45:15.960 --> 00:45:17.880
be doing most of the teaching at home. So I

775
00:45:17.880 --> 00:45:20.519
don't know what's the point of going to church, and

776
00:45:20.760 --> 00:45:23.719
so I don't know. You know, you could break it down,

777
00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:26.239
maybe we could do some research and discover but most

778
00:45:26.360 --> 00:45:31.239
churches don't have a sermon Sunday morning, Sunday night and

779
00:45:31.239 --> 00:45:33.840
Wednesday night. Many do not. They have some other kind

780
00:45:33.880 --> 00:45:36.400
of program going on, So what are you really getting

781
00:45:36.400 --> 00:45:38.400
for one hundred and fifty to five hundred thousand dollars

782
00:45:38.440 --> 00:45:42.760
a year? Many will refer to their small groups as

783
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:46.199
Sunday School. What are you getting from Sunday School? What

784
00:45:46.239 --> 00:45:54.679
are you actually getting? What are you actually getting? Some

785
00:45:54.960 --> 00:45:57.360
have small groups that meet during the week outside of

786
00:45:57.360 --> 00:45:59.480
the building. Well, if they're not meeting at the building,

787
00:45:59.559 --> 00:46:01.320
then again, why are you paying for the building? And

788
00:46:01.400 --> 00:46:05.239
why are you actually getting into small groups? We have

789
00:46:05.280 --> 00:46:08.599
a survey where only forty six percent of leaders say

790
00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:12.440
that the Bible study is the key is that's only

791
00:46:12.480 --> 00:46:17.480
forty six percent and even smaller number very small. What

792
00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:19.079
was it that was thinking? Was like less than ten

793
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:23.800
percent say that by that discipleship and equipping was a

794
00:46:23.840 --> 00:46:27.559
part of it. It was some small number. Well, then

795
00:46:27.599 --> 00:46:29.400
what in the world is going on in small groups?

796
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:33.920
And guess what? Those small groups typically have some kind

797
00:46:33.960 --> 00:46:36.039
of curriculum or some kind of book the church is

798
00:46:36.039 --> 00:46:40.119
typically paying for, which again goes to the cost. What

799
00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:49.199
are you getting for it? Now? One I do not

800
00:46:49.440 --> 00:46:53.679
I can't stand when church is basically a state that

801
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:57.639
it's not the it's not the pulpits job to really

802
00:46:57.679 --> 00:47:00.480
disciple or to go in depth that has to be done,

803
00:47:00.960 --> 00:47:04.400
and well, small groups. I can't stand that when they

804
00:47:05.199 --> 00:47:08.840
basically excuse their responsibility and push it over to a

805
00:47:08.880 --> 00:47:13.119
small group, that that absolutely makes me lose my mind personally.

806
00:47:13.159 --> 00:47:17.280
Any church that says that I wouldn't attend because you're

807
00:47:17.320 --> 00:47:19.280
telling me immediately that the pulpit really is not the

808
00:47:19.280 --> 00:47:20.920
place to go in depth, well then I don't know

809
00:47:20.960 --> 00:47:23.280
why I'm even showing up for some shallow three point

810
00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:30.400
nonsense instead of actually digging in. But here's where, and

811
00:47:30.480 --> 00:47:33.239
I know churches don't want to hear this, but this

812
00:47:33.320 --> 00:47:40.840
is where I can get frustrated. For one hundred and

813
00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:44.079
fifty thousand, let's go one hundred thousand dollars a year.

814
00:47:44.679 --> 00:47:46.880
Let's just go one hundred thousand dollars a year. One

815
00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:51.519
hundred thousand, right, So that's lower than the lowest estimate

816
00:47:52.079 --> 00:47:56.239
for one hundred thousand dollars a year. For one hundred

817
00:47:56.239 --> 00:48:06.440
thousand dollars a year, I could provide probably five hours

818
00:48:06.480 --> 00:48:12.079
of some type of teaching Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

819
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:16.159
If I was to bring in one hundred thousand dollars

820
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:19.639
a year for a podcast, I could broadcast probably five

821
00:48:19.760 --> 00:48:24.119
hours a day without too much difficulty. Oh, it may fluctuate.

822
00:48:24.199 --> 00:48:27.039
Maybe some days you only get three three hours. Maybe

823
00:48:27.039 --> 00:48:29.199
some days you only get two hours. Maybe some days

824
00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:31.320
you only get four hours. Maybe some days you get

825
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:33.880
six or seven. But I could bry because it would

826
00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:37.400
be like one hundred thousand dollars. We're going all in,

827
00:48:37.480 --> 00:48:41.079
We're going for one hundred thousand, and for one hundred

828
00:48:41.079 --> 00:48:43.559
thousand dollars a year, I could do this, and I

829
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:45.800
mean this, for one hundred thousand dollars a year, I

830
00:48:45.840 --> 00:48:49.320
could broadcast about five hours a day. I could also

831
00:48:49.480 --> 00:48:53.079
provide digital curriculum for anyone who wants it. We could

832
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:56.840
do guided Bible studies using the curriculum. We could do

833
00:48:56.920 --> 00:49:01.079
Bible study exercises. We could do we could do for

834
00:49:01.079 --> 00:49:03.119
for one hundred thousand dollars a year. We could basically

835
00:49:03.159 --> 00:49:07.199
do I mean, I can do one hundred thousand times

836
00:49:07.239 --> 00:49:13.400
more than any church. And I'm just I'm not saying

837
00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:16.000
just me. Anyone could anyone with a microphone, anyone with

838
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:19.400
a microphone, for one hundred thousand dollars a year. So

839
00:49:19.440 --> 00:49:21.199
it's going to cost between one hundred and fifty to

840
00:49:21.239 --> 00:49:23.719
five hundred thousand dollars to keep a church open, and

841
00:49:23.800 --> 00:49:26.480
a lot of them they are regulating a lot of

842
00:49:26.519 --> 00:49:28.840
what I think is the responsibility of the pulpit to

843
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:31.400
these so called small groups. And even the small groups,

844
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:33.599
we don't really know what their focus is because only

845
00:49:33.639 --> 00:49:35.960
forty six percent of the leaders even say Bible study

846
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:41.199
is the key focus. This is why so many people

847
00:49:41.239 --> 00:49:44.960
in the church is not getting their discipleship and equipping

848
00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:47.199
from the church. They're getting it now. They me getting

849
00:49:47.239 --> 00:49:51.039
it from a church, but not their local church. So

850
00:49:51.159 --> 00:50:00.079
then what is their local church doing for that much money,

851
00:50:01.559 --> 00:50:10.000
I mean, for a hundred thousand dollars a year for

852
00:50:10.199 --> 00:50:30.800
crying out loud, Like just a podcast could provide anything.

853
00:50:31.159 --> 00:50:34.679
It could provide curriculum, it could probably give away books.

854
00:50:34.800 --> 00:50:38.960
It could I mean, you could just broadcast hour after

855
00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:43.440
hour after hour after hour, and yet you'll have churches

856
00:50:43.480 --> 00:50:53.599
who I don't. I don't, I don't get it. So

857
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:57.079
we learned this. It sounds like small groups. Now the

858
00:50:57.199 --> 00:51:01.400
term refers to Sunday School, which now use the statistics

859
00:51:01.440 --> 00:51:04.239
about where they take place. So if you refer to

860
00:51:04.239 --> 00:51:06.519
Sunday School as a small group, well, then the majority

861
00:51:06.519 --> 00:51:08.679
of them are happening in the building. That's I guess

862
00:51:08.679 --> 00:51:11.199
that's a positive. But if for those churches that have

863
00:51:11.239 --> 00:51:13.760
small groups that meet outside of the building, again, then

864
00:51:13.760 --> 00:51:16.079
you have to ask the question why are you paying

865
00:51:16.119 --> 00:51:20.079
the money for the building? And then what is actually

866
00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:23.360
being what is actually happening in Sunday school? Walk around

867
00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:26.519
your church. Who are the Sunday school teachers? Who are

868
00:51:26.519 --> 00:51:29.360
the Sunday school teachers in your church? Come and walk

869
00:51:29.400 --> 00:51:31.559
around and ask who's the Sunday school teachers? And then

870
00:51:31.599 --> 00:51:35.760
ask yourself, ask this, are there any requirements for those

871
00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:40.599
Sunday school teachers? Do they have to pass a theology test?

872
00:51:41.559 --> 00:51:43.719
Ask some of your Sunday school teachers in your church,

873
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:46.119
Come on, tell me, give me what's the Bible study

874
00:51:46.159 --> 00:51:48.239
method you use? Do you even have a Bible study method?

875
00:51:48.239 --> 00:51:50.239
Do you know the Bible study methods? Many cases, they

876
00:51:50.280 --> 00:51:53.360
don't have a clue. So you have then a whole

877
00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:56.039
group of people who in many cases never been to

878
00:51:56.039 --> 00:51:59.159
Bible college, never been to seminary, and they're not paid staff.

879
00:51:59.599 --> 00:52:02.760
Who are may who are in charge of all of

880
00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:05.800
these so called small groups are Sunday school classrooms? The

881
00:52:05.920 --> 00:52:08.639
church is spending all of this money to provide them curriculum.

882
00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:11.599
Many cases, the people who go aren't even using the curriculum.

883
00:52:11.880 --> 00:52:15.559
And then what's actually transpiring in those Sunday school classrooms.

884
00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:21.800
Just think of all the money goes to keep those

885
00:52:22.039 --> 00:52:26.599
classrooms operating, all the money that goes. I've heard estimates

886
00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:29.480
of how much money it costs for the curriculum. Sometimes

887
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:31.880
I am utterly baffled and blown away. I'm like, that

888
00:52:32.000 --> 00:52:34.679
much money. Why can't the Sunday school teachers take a

889
00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:39.239
bible go home just by one, like one one book

890
00:52:39.280 --> 00:52:42.079
of the curriculum for each Sunday school teacher. Then the

891
00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:45.840
Sunday school teacher takes that curriculum and then with their

892
00:52:45.920 --> 00:52:49.280
own study works out a lesson and teach the lesson.

893
00:52:50.280 --> 00:52:53.280
Why spend money to give everyone a study guide when

894
00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:56.400
I think, I think statistics would prove nobody is using it.

895
00:52:56.719 --> 00:52:59.280
Why spend all of that money? And why do do

896
00:52:59.320 --> 00:53:02.000
the teachers need book? Why can't the teachers formulate their

897
00:53:02.039 --> 00:53:07.559
own lessons? And if they need something, they need some assistance,

898
00:53:07.559 --> 00:53:10.239
and they need some help. Say, okay, each Sunday school teacher,

899
00:53:10.400 --> 00:53:14.920
you have this much money per year for you not

900
00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:17.440
to buy curriculum for the class Because in many cases

901
00:53:17.480 --> 00:53:19.840
that goes to waste. It's a waste of time and money.

902
00:53:20.079 --> 00:53:24.400
And then if the teacher needs something or needs some

903
00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:27.280
kind of guided curriculum, they have it for themselves so

904
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:29.559
that they can look at it, read it, process it,

905
00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:39.800
and then turn it into a lesson. So what what

906
00:53:39.920 --> 00:53:44.559
what is really happening? What is happening? Why is small

907
00:53:44.960 --> 00:53:49.719
I'm just that's that. That article blows my mind because

908
00:53:49.719 --> 00:53:52.760
the article makes the argument that small groups is the

909
00:53:52.840 --> 00:53:57.639
key to disciple making, but yet the leaders themselves only

910
00:53:57.719 --> 00:54:00.480
forty six percent says Bible study is the key. Folks, Well,

911
00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:02.639
then I don't understand what in the world is going on?

912
00:54:09.039 --> 00:54:12.039
So what do you think about all of it? Now?

913
00:54:12.079 --> 00:54:14.280
I know, let me just go ahead and get this

914
00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:16.360
out of the way. A lot of people will say,

915
00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:19.119
you have a very that's you look at it from

916
00:54:19.119 --> 00:54:21.840
a very pragmatic perspective. You're looking at it from a

917
00:54:21.960 --> 00:54:25.880
very fleshly perspective, and that I look, I'm aware of that.

918
00:54:26.599 --> 00:54:29.599
But what I'm trying to say is that churches, you

919
00:54:29.800 --> 00:54:32.920
have to use money, you have to spend money, right,

920
00:54:33.400 --> 00:54:35.679
so you have to take the moment to at least

921
00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:38.519
look at it to some level. From that perspective, right,

922
00:54:38.679 --> 00:54:40.880
just like Look, I know, on one hand, when I

923
00:54:40.920 --> 00:54:43.199
do a podcast episode like the last one that I

924
00:54:43.239 --> 00:54:45.679
started by acknowledging just did not go well and it

925
00:54:45.719 --> 00:54:47.920
was a train wreck. And I understand the reason was

926
00:54:47.960 --> 00:54:50.480
because of the philosophy I've adopted and how to do

927
00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:53.159
reviews can lead to this. I think churches have to

928
00:54:53.199 --> 00:54:55.800
also go, well, wait a minute, we have adopted a

929
00:54:55.800 --> 00:54:59.440
certain philosophy or a certain tradition about what your churches need.

930
00:54:59.639 --> 00:55:01.679
When we need so called small groups, we need so

931
00:55:01.760 --> 00:55:04.840
called Sunday school, we need these things, we need a building,

932
00:55:05.199 --> 00:55:09.960
We've adopted a certain philosophy. Well, with that philosophy comes

933
00:55:10.159 --> 00:55:13.119
some negative, unintended consequences. And I think some of the

934
00:55:13.159 --> 00:55:16.880
negative unintended consequences is a church is spending between one

935
00:55:16.960 --> 00:55:19.239
hundred and fifty and five hundred thousand dollars a year

936
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:22.559
to maintain a building, and when you see what actually

937
00:55:22.639 --> 00:55:25.440
people are gaining from that building, in many cases, I

938
00:55:25.480 --> 00:55:27.239
don't think it's worth one hundred and fifty and five

939
00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:30.199
hundred thousand. I know that's a fleshly perspective, but it

940
00:55:30.280 --> 00:55:33.039
has to least be considered so that we can say, well,

941
00:55:33.039 --> 00:55:36.599
what can we do to get more out of this building.

942
00:55:36.840 --> 00:55:40.079
What can we do so that we are accomplishing something

943
00:55:40.199 --> 00:55:42.960
far greater than the amount of money going in. Because

944
00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:45.480
then what happens is you fall into a cycle, which

945
00:55:45.559 --> 00:55:48.280
is I've got to continue to bring in this many people,

946
00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:50.400
and they need to give this much money so that

947
00:55:50.440 --> 00:55:53.159
we can keep the building operating and we can keep funding.

948
00:55:53.280 --> 00:55:56.159
So in some cases, evangelism is not so much about

949
00:55:56.159 --> 00:55:58.039
people coming to faith in Christ so they can go

950
00:55:58.079 --> 00:56:00.840
to heaven. Evangelism is about in suing, you have enough

951
00:56:00.880 --> 00:56:05.440
people in the pew giving money to keep the machine operating.

952
00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:09.639
Without it, the machine falls apart. We don't have money

953
00:56:09.639 --> 00:56:11.119
for this, we don't have money for this, And then

954
00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:13.519
financial fights begin to break out in the church, and

955
00:56:13.559 --> 00:56:15.400
the next thing you know, you went are in trouble.

956
00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:16.679
And then you have to say, well, we got to

957
00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:18.119
get rid of this. We can't do this, we can't

958
00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:19.639
do this, we can't do this, we can't do this,

959
00:56:19.840 --> 00:56:21.480
we can't and then the next thing you know, the

960
00:56:21.559 --> 00:56:26.320
church ceases to exist. And for all the money that

961
00:56:26.360 --> 00:56:28.880
went in to keep that church operating, I hate to

962
00:56:28.920 --> 00:56:31.800
say it, one person sitting somewhere with a laptop and

963
00:56:31.840 --> 00:56:35.199
a microphone in an internet connection could have provided more

964
00:56:35.239 --> 00:56:38.639
teaching than the church provided in five years, and they

965
00:56:38.639 --> 00:56:51.880
did it in six months. All I'm saying is that

966
00:56:51.960 --> 00:56:56.960
has to at least be considered. Now we've talked about

967
00:56:56.960 --> 00:57:02.480
this countless times on this PODCAS. We call it what

968
00:57:02.559 --> 00:57:07.000
a cost benefit analysis. We talked about what is the

969
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:10.960
benefit one is gaining from the cost that it takes

970
00:57:11.000 --> 00:57:14.519
to provide said benefit? What is the worth of that benefit?

971
00:57:18.800 --> 00:57:21.360
And so when I try not to look at it

972
00:57:21.400 --> 00:57:23.599
from a pragmatic stempoint, I just asked people, so come on,

973
00:57:23.760 --> 00:57:26.119
tell me about your Christian life. Where did you learn,

974
00:57:26.360 --> 00:57:28.880
where did you grow? Where did you get fed? And

975
00:57:28.920 --> 00:57:31.400
it'll be like, well from this radio program or from

976
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:33.639
this or from this. I'm like, so did you go

977
00:57:33.719 --> 00:57:36.119
to church? Well, yeah, well then why were you being fed?

978
00:57:36.360 --> 00:57:39.079
Because the local church, even though it cost all that money,

979
00:57:39.400 --> 00:57:45.320
wasn't actually feeding the people who go there. Now, some

980
00:57:45.360 --> 00:57:47.960
people will ask, so then if I'm not being fed there,

981
00:57:48.000 --> 00:57:50.559
then what should I do? Well, one could argue, you

982
00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:54.280
give the money to whoever's feeding you. Now, the only

983
00:57:54.320 --> 00:57:56.639
problem is some will say, well that's wrong because the

984
00:57:56.719 --> 00:57:59.440
tithe or well, whether you get into it believing in

985
00:57:59.440 --> 00:58:01.559
a tithe they're not the gift should go to the church.

986
00:58:02.920 --> 00:58:04.760
But then you could argue, do you go with a

987
00:58:04.840 --> 00:58:07.079
universal church idea, Well, any ministry is a part of

988
00:58:07.119 --> 00:58:09.559
the universal church. Like you could then start playing little

989
00:58:09.599 --> 00:58:11.559
games and you know, we can get into a big fight.

990
00:58:11.719 --> 00:58:14.920
But the thing is is if if you're listening to

991
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:17.679
five hours a week of a program and I'm not

992
00:58:17.719 --> 00:58:21.280
saying mine, so please don't think I'm any of any

993
00:58:21.360 --> 00:58:25.000
of them. This is where you're getting your food. You're

994
00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:28.960
getting your discipleship and your church. You're not getting You're

995
00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:31.280
you're walking out going well, you know, all right whatever,

996
00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:35.079
I don't even know. Well, then should the money go

997
00:58:35.119 --> 00:58:38.280
to continue to maintain that building so you're not being fed. Now,

998
00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:40.000
I'm not saying you should sit there and complain and

999
00:58:40.039 --> 00:58:42.400
throw a fit and act a full and cause trouble,

1000
00:58:42.440 --> 00:58:44.519
because that's of no value, because in any cases, the

1001
00:58:44.599 --> 00:58:47.760
church is structured that it has to do what will

1002
00:58:47.760 --> 00:58:50.079
please the greatest number of people so that you can

1003
00:58:50.119 --> 00:58:53.239
maintain a number of people in order to maintain the building.

1004
00:58:53.519 --> 00:58:57.639
Everything is about everything is about keeping the gears turning.

1005
00:59:02.039 --> 00:59:05.760
It's an it's it's a it's a machine. It's a mechanism.

1006
00:59:05.800 --> 00:59:07.920
It's a it's an industry, and you've got to keep

1007
00:59:07.960 --> 00:59:10.440
it funded and you've got to keep it flowing. So

1008
00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:11.599
what do you got to do? You got to keep

1009
00:59:11.599 --> 00:59:13.119
people happy? Well, what do you do? You got to

1010
00:59:13.119 --> 00:59:16.079
do to keep people happy? You need programs, you need activities,

1011
00:59:16.280 --> 00:59:18.440
you need facilities. You got to do this, and you

1012
00:59:18.559 --> 00:59:19.880
got to do this, and you got to do that

1013
00:59:20.000 --> 00:59:29.000
because it's expected. I've often said, churches have buildings. I've

1014
00:59:29.039 --> 00:59:32.159
always been just blown away up by this. Churches have buildings,

1015
00:59:32.639 --> 00:59:38.400
all these buildings with all these rooms, right, and you've

1016
00:59:38.400 --> 00:59:43.159
got ministerial staff who's supposed to be, you know, equipped

1017
00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:47.760
and ready and desire to teach, hunger to teach. I'm like,

1018
00:59:47.760 --> 00:59:51.920
why aren't those classrooms being used Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday,

1019
00:59:51.920 --> 00:59:54.360
Sunday with people like Okay, For the next two hours,

1020
00:59:54.400 --> 00:59:56.239
I'm going to be broadcasting and I'm going to be

1021
00:59:56.239 --> 00:59:58.800
working on the Book of Job. Coming up in about

1022
00:59:58.840 --> 01:00:01.840
four hours, Robert's gonna come in. He's going to be

1023
01:00:01.840 --> 01:00:05.000
working on the Book of Limitations and coming up over

1024
01:00:05.239 --> 01:00:08.480
overnight from midnight to three, we're gonna have tim He's

1025
01:00:08.480 --> 01:00:11.159
going to be teaching on the book, Amlaki, because we

1026
01:00:11.199 --> 01:00:13.480
got all these rooms, all we need is a microphone

1027
01:00:13.480 --> 01:00:16.280
put in each room and a laptop and an internet connection.

1028
01:00:16.519 --> 01:00:24.400
You got the ministerial staff, why don't you just teach teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach, teach.

1029
01:00:26.039 --> 01:00:29.119
You've got the facilities, you're spending, but all this money

1030
01:00:29.159 --> 01:00:31.840
to maintain them, do something with them, and like, no,

1031
01:00:32.159 --> 01:00:37.159
the building's lock down, nobody's using the building until Sunday

1032
01:00:39.079 --> 01:00:40.880
or unless you're using it for just you know, a

1033
01:00:40.880 --> 01:00:46.559
lot of other activities. But if you got the ministerial

1034
01:00:46.639 --> 01:00:50.119
staff and they're supposed to be ready to teach in

1035
01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:53.519
season and out of season, they should. They should be

1036
01:00:53.559 --> 01:00:55.559
wanting and hungry, and the Word of God should be

1037
01:00:55.639 --> 01:00:59.119
like a fire, then why are they just not like, Okay,

1038
01:00:59.360 --> 01:01:01.280
all right, Hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna be

1039
01:01:01.280 --> 01:01:04.639
broadcasting for an hour, Robert, you want to broadcast later today? Yeah, okay,

1040
01:01:04.840 --> 01:01:08.559
you got an idea, right, Hey, Hey, remember that curriculum

1041
01:01:08.599 --> 01:01:10.880
we use. Hey, grab one of the one of the

1042
01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:13.519
books and look and build something out of that. Okay,

1043
01:01:13.519 --> 01:01:15.920
you go work on that. I'll go our boom gone.

1044
01:01:16.039 --> 01:01:18.440
I mean because I mean, if you're if you're paying

1045
01:01:18.480 --> 01:01:21.320
a staff to be there, why, like, that's the way

1046
01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:26.239
I envision it. So then the just teaching is flowing

1047
01:01:26.280 --> 01:01:29.199
from that building, hour after hour, a week after week,

1048
01:01:29.599 --> 01:01:33.480
boom boom, and so then you can say, hey, your

1049
01:01:33.559 --> 01:01:40.559
money is producing all of this. I can't even imagine

1050
01:01:41.079 --> 01:01:44.480
as a as a podcaster, one hundred thousand dollars a

1051
01:01:44.559 --> 01:01:48.480
year that would go. That wouldn't that wouldn't be to

1052
01:01:48.519 --> 01:01:51.440
maintain a building, that would just go for the broadcast.

1053
01:01:56.559 --> 01:01:58.119
I guess I could. I could take some of it

1054
01:01:58.159 --> 01:02:00.440
as a quote unquote salary, I guess if you wanted

1055
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:02.199
to break it down. But even if I took even

1056
01:02:02.199 --> 01:02:05.119
if I took twenty five thousand, took twenty five thousand

1057
01:02:05.280 --> 01:02:07.760
from it for my yearly salary of twenty five thousand,

1058
01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:10.119
and the rest went to the broadcast, that would be

1059
01:02:10.159 --> 01:02:12.159
I mean, like you could do anything you want with

1060
01:02:12.199 --> 01:02:14.920
the broadcat And again, I could produce five hours of

1061
01:02:14.960 --> 01:02:20.920
teaching a day, which is more than almost any church anywhere.

1062
01:02:21.440 --> 01:02:23.440
You know how many I'm not good at math, but

1063
01:02:23.599 --> 01:02:26.920
five hours a day, seven days a week, how many

1064
01:02:26.960 --> 01:02:29.320
hours a week would that be of teaching, what is

1065
01:02:29.360 --> 01:02:31.559
your church producing for the amount of money it costs

1066
01:02:31.639 --> 01:02:35.840
to keep it going. And if the church is saying

1067
01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:39.159
that we can't do these discipleship and really equipping people

1068
01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:41.199
from the pulpits so we need small groups. And then

1069
01:02:41.199 --> 01:02:43.159
if the small groups are not meeting in the building,

1070
01:02:43.480 --> 01:02:50.800
well then what is the building really there for now.

1071
01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:54.360
I know I'm throwing out a hypotheses that is probably

1072
01:02:54.519 --> 01:02:58.320
very controversial, and people will say you're trying to undermine

1073
01:02:58.360 --> 01:03:01.239
the church and you're no, I'm not. I'm just saying

1074
01:03:01.719 --> 01:03:04.280
you have to consider, like, like, somebody has to at

1075
01:03:04.320 --> 01:03:09.760
least think this through. I've said it so many times.

1076
01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:12.480
I'll drive by churches and I'll be like, man, that's

1077
01:03:12.519 --> 01:03:18.519
a nice building and there's nothing that all the lights

1078
01:03:18.519 --> 01:03:21.440
are off and nobody's own and I'm like, that's a nice,

1079
01:03:21.480 --> 01:03:24.199
big building. And so you'll look up their website and

1080
01:03:24.199 --> 01:03:26.679
you're kind of like one. In some cases, I don't

1081
01:03:26.719 --> 01:03:29.000
even have their sermons online, so I'm like, Okay, well

1082
01:03:29.000 --> 01:03:32.519
that's wonderful, right. Or two, you'll listen to their sermons,

1083
01:03:32.599 --> 01:03:38.920
You'll like that's what it Probably three hundred thousand dollars

1084
01:03:38.960 --> 01:03:40.920
a year to keep that building going and that's what

1085
01:03:40.960 --> 01:03:43.840
people are getting growing there, that's what they're getting. And

1086
01:03:43.880 --> 01:03:46.079
it's not about whether I agree with the theology or

1087
01:03:46.119 --> 01:03:49.840
disagree with the theology. See people are misunderstanding. It's about

1088
01:03:49.880 --> 01:03:53.760
just how deep it is, the quality of it. What

1089
01:03:54.119 --> 01:03:57.159
can I can completely disagree with something like whoa they

1090
01:03:57.199 --> 01:03:59.440
went in that was good in depth teaching. I think

1091
01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:02.800
it's completely wrong, but at least I can appreciate the

1092
01:04:02.840 --> 01:04:05.239
work that went into it. And sometimes I'm just kind

1093
01:04:05.239 --> 01:04:07.800
of like, I think they took their whole sermon from

1094
01:04:07.840 --> 01:04:16.920
a you know, our Daily Bread devotional And then we

1095
01:04:17.000 --> 01:04:20.320
find that many and then remember the plagiarism controversy, and

1096
01:04:20.320 --> 01:04:22.440
then we found out that there's these services where a

1097
01:04:22.480 --> 01:04:25.880
pastor pays money to have their sermon basically given to them.

1098
01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:29.360
Remember we did the Sermon in a Box miniseries where

1099
01:04:29.400 --> 01:04:31.840
we bought a sermon, and then we listened to actual

1100
01:04:31.920 --> 01:04:35.159
churches that had bought that same box and we could

1101
01:04:35.199 --> 01:04:37.159
hear that they were basically reading it word for word.

1102
01:04:37.320 --> 01:04:39.119
So now you're paying all this money for the church

1103
01:04:39.400 --> 01:04:42.840
and the pastor is buying a sermons from some subscription service.

1104
01:04:47.400 --> 01:04:50.559
The people in the building could buy the sermon themselves

1105
01:04:50.719 --> 01:04:56.719
and just read it at home. Now you say, well,

1106
01:04:56.719 --> 01:05:00.239
you've got a low view of the church. Well, if

1107
01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:02.440
you're sacramental, then yeah, you've got to go to the

1108
01:05:02.519 --> 01:05:08.719
church for the sacraments, right because there are means of grace.

1109
01:05:09.400 --> 01:05:11.760
If you're not sacramental, it's going to be very much

1110
01:05:11.760 --> 01:05:13.519
easier to kind of go, what are we doing here?

1111
01:05:13.559 --> 01:05:18.119
I think sacramental and the church. The church has the sacraments,

1112
01:05:18.199 --> 01:05:20.000
and they're the ones who can give them. Then you

1113
01:05:20.039 --> 01:05:22.360
don't care how much it costs for the building because

1114
01:05:22.440 --> 01:05:24.639
you go there to get the sacraments. You go there

1115
01:05:24.880 --> 01:05:28.239
to have those sacraments, which are a means of grace. Okay,

1116
01:05:28.239 --> 01:05:30.519
well you can see then there would be a different approach.

1117
01:05:33.079 --> 01:05:38.519
So according to the articles, the headline's very misleading. Small

1118
01:05:38.519 --> 01:05:41.480
groups are the key. However, the statistics don't seem to

1119
01:05:41.480 --> 01:05:45.360
support the headline, so I'm a little perplexed by that.

1120
01:05:46.320 --> 01:05:48.920
The one thing I did discover is small groups now

1121
01:05:49.039 --> 01:05:52.280
doesn't mean small groups outside the church. It means it now.

1122
01:05:52.320 --> 01:05:55.400
You may be going, well, duh, everyone knew this ten

1123
01:05:55.480 --> 01:05:58.760
years ago. I didn't know it because I've never had

1124
01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:01.440
small groups in my church. I'm like, we come to

1125
01:06:01.559 --> 01:06:04.000
church to study. We're not going to now people. There

1126
01:06:04.000 --> 01:06:06.440
have been people who argued for having small groups outside

1127
01:06:06.480 --> 01:06:08.880
of the church. There are people who argued for that,

1128
01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:11.639
and they wanted that, and they fought me. I'm like,

1129
01:06:11.679 --> 01:06:14.280
we're already a small church. Just show up here and

1130
01:06:14.360 --> 01:06:16.760
learn and stop wanting about it, you know, like it was,

1131
01:06:16.920 --> 01:06:19.559
it was so frustrated, like why why how many more?

1132
01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:22.320
I'm giving you all these hours there and then I'm

1133
01:06:22.320 --> 01:06:24.280
coming home and spending hour after hour in front of

1134
01:06:24.320 --> 01:06:26.440
a microphone. But yet you want a small group, and

1135
01:06:26.440 --> 01:06:28.239
what you'd really and when you really wanted to know

1136
01:06:28.239 --> 01:06:30.559
what they wanted. They just wanted to hang out with

1137
01:06:30.599 --> 01:06:34.960
people and get to know people. They needed, They needed friendship, companionship.

1138
01:06:35.000 --> 01:06:38.280
I'm like, well, then just invite people over to your house.

1139
01:06:38.679 --> 01:06:40.840
They don't need the church to structure it. Invite people

1140
01:06:40.880 --> 01:06:49.119
over to your house and hang out. All right, there

1141
01:06:49.199 --> 01:06:51.840
we go. I thought that was interesting. You can tell

1142
01:06:51.880 --> 01:06:53.480
me what you think. It kind of fits some of

1143
01:06:53.519 --> 01:06:56.920
our discussion we had the discussion about AI and how

1144
01:06:56.920 --> 01:07:01.239
technology impacts the church, and again, technological advances. I was

1145
01:07:01.280 --> 01:07:05.599
more those technological advances allowed me to be taught, learn

1146
01:07:05.760 --> 01:07:08.760
and grow and again it was outside of the local church,

1147
01:07:09.039 --> 01:07:19.880
and so maybe my experience has really greatly developed or

1148
01:07:19.920 --> 01:07:23.480
greatly shaped my perspective here, and you may have a

1149
01:07:23.519 --> 01:07:25.880
completely different one. I always give people the opportunity to

1150
01:07:25.920 --> 01:07:28.079
let me know what they think, but again, over and

1151
01:07:28.119 --> 01:07:30.639
over and over, people like, well, if I'm really being honest,

1152
01:07:31.239 --> 01:07:33.639
this is where I learned, this is where I was discipled,

1153
01:07:33.679 --> 01:07:36.079
and it wasn't their church. Every once in a while

1154
01:07:36.079 --> 01:07:39.519
I'll get someone say it was my local church, and

1155
01:07:39.599 --> 01:07:41.719
always like, okay, give me the name of that church

1156
01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:44.400
and let me go listen to what you was discipling

1157
01:07:44.440 --> 01:07:46.280
you so much. A lot of times nobody will provide

1158
01:07:46.320 --> 01:07:48.280
me the name, because a lot of times I want

1159
01:07:48.280 --> 01:07:50.000
to really go, wow, I want to hear what was

1160
01:07:50.079 --> 01:07:52.719
going on in your church, right, because it sounds like

1161
01:07:52.760 --> 01:07:56.079
it was amazing. Now I'm not saying it's not true.

1162
01:07:56.119 --> 01:07:58.199
It's just sometimes though, when you go you're kind of like, well,

1163
01:07:58.199 --> 01:08:00.320
wait a minute, that's where you were getting your disay diciples.

1164
01:08:00.639 --> 01:08:02.760
Like sometimes you just kind of like, I'm not really

1165
01:08:02.840 --> 01:08:06.079
getting what was the what was that all about? But

1166
01:08:06.199 --> 01:08:08.719
in some cases I may be blown away, But most

1167
01:08:08.840 --> 01:08:11.639
so far everyone points to something other than their local church,

1168
01:08:11.679 --> 01:08:20.479
which that only supports my you can say, twisted hypotheses,

1169
01:08:20.520 --> 01:08:22.439
but there we go. Thanks for listening everyone, have a

1170
01:08:22.479 --> 01:08:29.279
great evening. Just think, just today, just today, from this

1171
01:08:29.359 --> 01:08:35.960
podcast alone, we have now been on the air for well,

1172
01:08:36.000 --> 01:08:38.279
I think about two and a half hours, almost three hours,

1173
01:08:38.479 --> 01:08:41.920
just this broadcast alone, this podcast alone, I've been on

1174
01:08:41.960 --> 01:08:50.000
the air almost three hours. And it doesn't cost while

1175
01:08:50.159 --> 01:08:52.319
between one hundred and fifty thousand to five hundred thousand

1176
01:08:52.359 --> 01:08:59.399
dollars a year to operate. Maybe that's what has maybe

1177
01:08:59.439 --> 01:09:02.319
negatively impacted my view. All right, thanks for listening. God

1178
01:09:02.319 --> 01:09:05.399
bless