Feb. 19, 2025

Prevenient Grace

Prevenient Grace

A discussion about the theological concept of prevenient grace

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A discussion about the theological concept of prevenient grace

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Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is

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the Theology Central podcast making Theology Central. I want you

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to take just a few minutes, and I want you

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to think back a long, long time ago when you

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first became a Christian. For some of you, that was

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a long time ago. It's like ancient history. Not to

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you know, criticize or make fun of your age, but

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it was a long time ago ago. For some of you.

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You were raised in Christianity. You don't ever really know

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anything different others of you. Maybe it was only ten

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years ago, fifteen years ago. You can still remember it

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to some level. But think back to the early stages

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of your Christian life. Do you remember. Do you remember it?

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Maybe it was exciting. Maybe you have great memories from

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that time. Remember how easy it felt and how simple

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it and understanding things. And every time you opened your

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Bible you were like excited because it was something new,

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it was something interesting, and and you would listen to

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a sermon or you would read something in a Christian

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book and you just like, oh, this is the way

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it is right. Everything seemed clear. You felt like you

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had found the answers right. You found like everyone else

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is stumbling around in the dark. But I have found

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the answers. I now see the light. It's I understand.

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I have clarity. And you would open your Bible and

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you would read something like Ephesians chapter two, verse eight.

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For by grace are ye saved through faith? And that

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not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not

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of works, lest any man should boast, and you're like, oh,

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I'm saved by grace through faith. Oh, this is awesome.

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And then maybe maybe I don't know how long it took.

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Someone was like, well, wait a minute, so what is

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the gift. Is the gift the grace or is the

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gift the faith or is the gift both grace and faith?

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And you were like, well, uh, I don't know, maybe

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it's both. Oh, you believe faith is a gift, so

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you can't believe on your own. God has to give

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you faith? Well does he give faith to everyone? Well?

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I mean uh? And all of a sudden you started

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realizing what are you talking about? And then you start

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realizing not everyone agrees on how to interpret Ephesians two eight,

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and you're like, well, that's not good. And so then

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you start realizing people don't agree on grace, So disgrace

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does this, Does Grace do this? Disgrace does that? And

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you start realizing, wait a minute, maybe this is more complicated.

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And then the longer you become a Christian, you realize

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nobody agrees on grace, nobody agrees on faith, nobody agrees

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on repentance, no one agrees on baptism, no one agrees

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on the Lord's Supper, no one agrees on this, no

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one agrees on that. And then you start realizing nobody

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agrees on anything. Now, maybe what you start doing is

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you're like, but, but, but but my group, we've got

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the truth. This just shows that false teaching a spread

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everywhere and all of those people are wrong and we

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are right. Maybe you took that approach, but the bottom

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line is this, at some point you had to turn

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around and remember, man, I have moved so far away

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from those simple days of being a Christian where it

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was exciting and you didn't realize that there was disagreements

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about everything, and there was just like you're learning, you're believing,

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you're excited, you believe in God, you believe in Jesus.

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The Bible is the word of God, and it's just

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there was a simplicity to it. There was almost a

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beauty in its simplicity, and if you were paying any attention,

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it's only become more complicated and more complicated and more complicated,

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and maybe at that point it starts becoming less fun,

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less beautiful, very frustrating, very discouraging, and very depressing. Has

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anyone had a similar experience? Or am I just talking

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and You're like, I don't know what he's talking about.

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I've never experienced anything like this. Well, if you've never

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experienced anything like it, congratulations, I think, for at least

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for me, that's my Christian life started so simple. It

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was so exciting. It was like, oh, I'm learning this,

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I'm learning, and then it didn't take long to start realizing,

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wait a minute, you disagree, you disagree, They disagree, and

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they disagree and they disagree, and so then it was like, Okay,

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they're all wrong and I'm right. But then over time

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it's become like I don't I don't even know how

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I process this. Now I'm going to talk. The reason

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I'm talking about all of that is because we're about

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to discuss well, one word, grace, and we're gonna discover

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I know this is shocking. Not everyone agrees even on

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the subject of grace for crying out loud. We don't

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even agree within Christianity on the subject of race. And

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we're going to talk about that right after I say

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good morning everyone. It is Wednesday, February the nineteenth, twenty

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twenty five. It is currently eleven forty nine am Central time,

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and I'm coming to you live from the Theology Central

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Studio located right here in Abilene, Texas. Now, if you

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will look, one of the past episodes I just did

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was on does Grace in Abel? Does Grace in Abel?

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Because I was listening to a chapel service. Now, I

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didn't see anybody at chapel service today. Where were all

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of you? Did anyone go to chapel service today? Where? Now,

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to be fair, I wasn't there either, Okay, I was distracted.

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I didn't get anywhere near chapel service. It's not my fault.

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Blame the things that distracted me. It's not my fault.

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I did not make it to chapel service today, Okay,

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I'm sorry I did not. Yeah, I think it was yesterday.

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It may have been yesterday that I snuck out. I

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think it was yesterday that I snuck out of Chapel service.

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All the days together, I don't remember anything anymore, Okay,

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but it was the other day that I snuck out

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of Chapel's service to talk to you about Grace because

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we were hearing in Chapel Service that grace enables. See,

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when you get the grace of God, it enables you

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to well, then you just start listing all the things

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that enables you to do. It enables you to obey,

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it enables you to fulfill the law of God. It

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enables you. And I'm like, ah, if it enables us, well,

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then that just raises all those questions. You can go

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back to listen to that entire episode, right, But we

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started talking about Grace, and immediately we begin to realize,

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guess what. Some people believe this about Grace. Others believe

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this about Grace. There is not agreement. Right, So I

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thought I was done with the episode. I moved on

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until nine fourteen a m. This morning, and someone emailed

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me because I didn't mention a certain view of Grace.

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And so now, well, ladies and gentlemen, we've got to

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talk about another view of Grace. Look all the other

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different views of Grace those. We've got even another one

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that we did not talk about, And no, I did

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not talk about it. I probably should have, but at

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that point I was just trying to contrast between two

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basic understandings. So this is what we're going to be

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talking about. Have you ever heard of this word? Have

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you ever? Have you ever been in church and heard

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someone mention this word? Are you ready? Preveniant? Preveniant, preveniant, preveniant,

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preveniant grace, preveniant grace. Have you ever heard that word? Preveniant, preveniant?

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I should say it. Preveniant is how I should say it. Okay,

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For some reason, I always want to spell it p

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e R, But it's p r E preveniant grace. I

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don't know why I want to say pe r provenyan.

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It's proveniant grace. Right. If I look at the word,

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it makes sense, right, preveniant grace, provenian grace. Have you

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ever heard of that term? Again? If I slip in

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and say it p e r, that's just that's just

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my it's my mistake. I know it's provenian grace. I

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know it's not preveniant, it's preveniant. Okay, I don't know

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why I want to say it the other way. So

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if I do that, that's on me. That's on me.

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It's just that's just me. For some weird reason. If

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if I was on a spelling test, I would not

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spell it p r E. That would just be on

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that on me, it's proveniant grace. So if I said

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it incorrectly, I apologize. Proveniant grace. P r E v

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E n I E n T preveniant grace. Write that

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phrase down, prevenian grace. Put it on the refrigerator, and

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when anyone gets ready to get something, I'll go, hey, guys, guys,

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look at the refrigerator and they're like, what's that proveniate grace?

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And they'll say it correctly. They'll say, I know how

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to say it. I heard that guy you were listening

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to who doesn't. Okay, So they're going to say it correctly.

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And then you can ask everyone what is prevenance grace,

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And if they cannot answer what provenian grace is, tell

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them they cannot get anything out of the refrigerator. That

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has to be the rule in your home today. If

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they cannot define provenian grace, they cannot get anything out

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of the refrigerator. Put it on the microwave. Anywhere there's

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food and the cabinets and they have to define it

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and then they'll probably tell you this is the dumbest

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game I've ever heard in my life. Stop listening to

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that stupid podcast. Right, But we need to understand proveniant grace. Now,

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on one hand, I'm excited to discuss proveniant grace. On

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the other hand, it falls into my frustration with Christianity

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in general, Like, for crying out loud, is there anything

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we can agree on? Anything? Do you think there's anything

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we could agree on? Literally? Anything? Can we not even

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agree on this thing called grace? Grace is this thing

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we should be celebrating, We should love it, it should

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be amazing, But we don't agree. We don't agree on

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Faith's faith something you can do is faith something that

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is given? Is it given to everyone? And then we

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get into predestination, we get into Calvinism, we get into Augustinianism, plage.

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Oh wait, we're gonna get into all of those same

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issues when we talk about Prevenian grace. But we're gonna

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be talking about it. So at first I'm going to

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go to the email. So first, to the original emailer,

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thank you for emailing. I'm gonna do my very best

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to be fair and accurate just for full transparency. I

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obviously don't hold to Prevenian grace. I obviously don't hold

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to that theologically, right, I don't. So if I did,

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then I would be a part of a group that

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would hold to that. I would be I would be

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far more Armenian in my in my belief system, right,

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or i'd be Catholic okay in many cases. Okay, And

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we can get into Thomas Aquinas and his understanding of

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Prevenian grace, right, but we'll go we'll go through the

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history and everything there. So obviously I don't hold to that,

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so I may come across very critical. But let me

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make this very clear, most likely before this EP episode

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is over, I'm gonna tick off the reform people. I'm

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gonna tick off the non reform people. I'm gonna tick

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off everyone in between, because, as I've said it before,

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I don't care about philological loyalty. I don't care. Theology

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should not determine what I believe. Hopefully scripture determines my theology,

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so I don't. I'm not loyal to a team. So

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in some cases people say, oh, well, you're a reform

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some people you're not reformed enough, and some people like

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you're this, you're and everybody wants to always label me

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and put me in a little box. And that's a

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problem because I don't want to fit into your I

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don't have to wear your team's jersey. So to the

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person who sit the email, they're probably not gonna like

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what I have to say. To the people who strongly

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disagree with his email, they're probably gonna disagree with me.

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I always find myself in the minority of the minority

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of the minority. But there's got to be at least

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one podcast that's not beholden to everyone's little philological systems, right,

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I think there has to be a voice for that.

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So here is the subject line, subject thoughts on your

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recent podcast, missing Piece, Preveniant Grace. So they're going to

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share their thoughts on my recent podcast, and they're going

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to talk about the missing piece, and the missing piece

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is preveniant Grace, and they they're they're right. If I

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was now, if the goal there was to do an

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extensive look at Grace, then you're absolutely right. You cannot

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ignore proveniant Grace. So let's let's let's let's just do

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this let's just make this very clear. The emailer is right.

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If I if the goal of that episode was to

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do a detailed view of grace, right, a detailed study

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of grace. If you leave out proveniant grace, then I

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mean you're leaving out a significant theological understanding within church history.

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Preveniant grace. The concepts have been around to and some

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and some capacity in some shape or form. It's been

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around throughout church history to some level. Now when it

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really takes shape, you can say, well, that's a little

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late to show up to the party. But remember, I

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don't like going with that argument. Well, which was earliest,

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which was first? Earliest and first does not necessarily mean correct. Okay,

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the issue is what what do we believe the Bible

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leads us to? And in some cases some of these

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issues really come down to more logical questions, but we'll

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get into that hopefully soon. So they're right, and that

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conversation we did not mention prevenant grace. If you were

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if you're a part of a church and they're discussing grace, faith,

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or any of these issues, then they have to talk

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about all the various different understandings. So we're going to

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do this so the person says, HI, begins with I

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hope this message finds you well. No, it finds me

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in the middle of a winter apocalypse here in West Texas.

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So but I won't grap about the Okay, I hope

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this message finds you well. I just finished listening to

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your latest podcast, and as always, I truly appreciate your

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insightful exploration on theological concepts. All right, So I appreciate

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that they start nice. I like when people start nice, right,

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I love that, right, That's always that always makes me

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feel good because whenever I see an email, I'm like,

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oh no, oh, no, oh no, because there's a good

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chance I'm gonna get an email like you are an

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idiot burn in hell. Okay, all right, maybe die die

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die die. I'm like, okay, all right, I get it.

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You don't like me, Okay, move on. I think in

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twenty twenty five, twenty twenty four, many of the people

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who hate me have moved on. I don't get a

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lot of that anymore, which is so good because there's

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so many different things to choose from. People can just

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move on. They don't really have to spend their time complaining.

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But it's always nice to get an encouraging one. All right,

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so that's good, says I truly appreciated your I truly

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appreciated your insightful exploration of theological concepts, specifically your discussion

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on imputed and infused righteousness. I love how you broke

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down the complexities of each view, making it accessible and

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thought provoking. Whoa, Okay, we're gonna stop right there, ladies

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and gentlemen. Someone has said that I am thought provoking.

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That's the end. I retire, Thank you, good night. That's

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the end of the Theology Central podcast. I have reached

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thought provoking level. I'm done. That's all I've ever wanted

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to do was be thought provoking. So I've accomplished that. Okay,

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good so so far, I'm feeling good about mysel I'm like, wow, yeah,

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thought provoking. Yeah, I did it. I did it. That's

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the level I wanted to get to. Thought provoking. All right,

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next paragraph, however, uh oh uh oh, you get the

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however now that's almost like but which kind of negates

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everything that comes before. However, uh uh oh transition however, coma,

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oh boy, here we go as someone who finds deep

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meaning and Prevenian grace and I'm like, oh no, why

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did you do that? Why did you tell me that?

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Because this is someone who finds deep meaning in this

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theological concept. Do you see. It's like someone just laid

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down the mines they put they put hidden minds all

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over the field and said, walk across that field, don't

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step on the mind and and blow yourself up. Because

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this is like, if you find deep meaning in it,

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then there's a high probability if I don't agree with it,

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that I may say things that doesn't seem to take

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into consideration the deep meaning you find in it. It's

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like if someone is a charismatic and they email me

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and like, I've heard that you don't like charismatic theology,

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but I find deep meaning in it. Oh no, what

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am I going to do? Because if I start talking

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about charismatic theology, I'm going to a fi someone who

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finds deep meaning in it, right, So I don't want

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to do that, but I mean that right there just

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makes me like, oh boy, what am I going to do.

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I gotta be careful here, I gotta be careful, but

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I'm not always good at being careful. So let me

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make this very clear to the original emailer, I appreciate.

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I understand finding deep meaning and a particular theological belief

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or a theological system. I truly understand that I, by

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no means want to unnecessarily offend. I don't want to,

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in any way, shape or form say anything that would

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be offensive. I don't want to, all right, but I

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will say this. I would at least, and I know

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this is not what you mean, but I will at

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least want to challenge us. What we need to do

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is try to find deep meaning and truth, not in

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a theological system, because rarely does truth fit in nicely

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to any one theolological system. Now, I'm not saying you're

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not you don't find deep meaning in truth. I'm not

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saying you don't. I'm just saying that MY focus is

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finding deep meaning and truth, whether that offends or doesn't offend,

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whether it offends friend or foe, like not, I have

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no loyal I don't want to have loyalty to a

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thiological system, is what I'm trying to say. But I

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understand finding deep meaning in it, right, because there's probably

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theological beliefs that I find deep meaning in, and if

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someone goes after those, then I could become very defensive.

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And get very upset. So I don't want to necessarily

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say anything that's just going to be like trying to

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be offensive. But when we get into some of this

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discussion about Grace, as you heard in the last episode,

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I have strong feelings about what some people claim about Grace,

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I get very bothered by. And I get bothered not

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because they make the claim or they have the belief.

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I always get bothered by the implications of So let

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me explain. Why do I hate charismatic theology because they

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make certain theological claims. No, I hate charismatic theology because

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of the implications of those claims. Because if you tell everyone,

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when Jesus died on the cross, by his stripes, you

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were healed, and so physical healing is guaranteed in the

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here and now, well, now the implications is you should

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be healed, and when people aren't healed, then you get

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blamed because you don't have enough faith. Okay, now I'm

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tipped off. Now I want to scream. Now I want

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to throw things. Not because you have some philological belief

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that I disagree with, because of the implications of that.

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When you claim that you heard directly from God and

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God told you this well, now I'm going to get

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frustrated because now I can't even disagree with you because

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you claim you got your understanding directly from the throne

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room of heaven. So then there's no way to even

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argue with you. That's frustrating. So it's not the belief necessarily,

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it's the it's the the implications of said belief. It's

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what it leads to. It can lead to people becoming

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if you tell people now that you're saved, you've been

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enabled to do abcdefg. Well, now you're telling people this

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and when they can't do it, and when they it

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doesn't work that way, you then tell them you were

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never saved. That the implications of that that hurts people.

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That does damage to people. So if we talk about

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Provenian grace, depending on what you say that grace does

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or makes available to people, that's where I may get frustrated.

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If that makes sense, all right, But it goes on

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to say I could not help or I couldn't help.

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But notice that this perspective was absent from the conversation.

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It was, to be honest, it was I don't really

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give much thought about Provenian grace. I'm not a part

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of that system, and I don't think I've ever even

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I've been in probably systems that probably kind of lean

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that direction, but I never, I never. I kind of

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always just moved past it. But let's see where they

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go here. And my view, preveniate grace beautifully bridges the

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gap between imputed and infused righteousness. Now I don't know

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exactly how they mean that, because to me, we don't

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bridge the gap between infused and imputed righteousness. That's not

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a gap to be bridged. That's the bridge we blow up,

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so that the two sides can never come close to

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each other because they're diametrically opposed to one another. I

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don't want a bridge where infused righteousness can get closer

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to imputed righteousness, or imputed righteousness can get closer to

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infuse righteousness. I want to blow that bridge up, and

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if I can, I'm going to dig out the canyon

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to even be further and further and further and further

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and further and further and further apart, where the two

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shall never meet. I don't want to shake hands. I

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don't want to be on the same side, because if

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I'm gonna get anywhere close to infused righteousness, I'm just

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going back to the Roman Catholic Church. I'm just going

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to Catholicism. It's been around forever, it's got a structure.

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If I get anywhere near infused righteousness, I'm not going

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to your little, you know, Protestant church where you claim

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to be Protestant, but in reality you're just more Catholic

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than you even admit. I'm just going to go straight

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to Catholicism and just call it a day, right, just

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call it a day. So I don't Now, I don't know.

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I don't think that's what they mean. But I don't

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want to bridge the gap, all right. I believe infused

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and imputed. That's the whole Protestant Reformation. The two cannot coexist.

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There are opposite sides. Now what does he mean by this, Well,

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he continues, prevenient grace beautifully bridges the gap between imputed

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and infused righteousness. Again, I'm not saying he meant it

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the way I hear it in my mind. I don't

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want to bridge the gap. I know he doesn't mean

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it that way, but that's okay. He goes on to

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say it beautifully bridges the gap between imputed and infused righteousness.

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Emphasizing God's grace that enables us to respond in faith

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while still preserving our free will. Oh man, I got

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so that. That's like this, that open. I don't even

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know where to stop. I don't even know where to start. Okay,

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that just oh, oh my goodness. So let's first go

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on with the idea of free will. Let's just go

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with the concept of free will, all right. Immediately. I

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hear Pelagianism, semi Pelagianism all day long. All right, so

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let me make it very clear. Already I have a problem.

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The minute you bring the words in free will, I

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I got nothing but problems. And here's the reason. And

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this is where I would agree with Pelagius. We if

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you go listen to my discussions on the eighteen points

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of Pelagianism, you'll know that if like Pelagia, I admire

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Pelagius for just being so straightforward and being honest and

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not pretending. If people have free will, if they have

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free will to any capacity, then that free will should

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be able to choose to be perfect, to be holy,

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and to keep the law of God. Because it's free,

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it can do and if there's anything restraining it, anything

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holding it back. So it cannot get to perfection. Logically,

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that's not free. So if we believe in free will,

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then people can freely choose to be perfect. Now I

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know Proveniate Grace is going to say, well, you've got

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to have proveniate grace to experience this freedom to some level.

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And this is where it'll get a little bit kind

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of complicated, and we'll try to walk through it. So

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I know at this point it may sound like I

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don't understand Provenate grace. Let me just make it clear.

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If at any point someone's will becomes free at any point,

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then that freedom can get can can at least make

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possible that someone could then freely choose to obey God's

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law perfectly because the will would be free. The will

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isn't free. How do I know that? Because no one

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can freely choose to be perfect, because no one ever has.

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So I've got the entire history of humanity other than

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Jesus Christ, which of course is different than us because

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he was the incarnate, eternal son of God without a

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sinful nature, right, But the entire history of humanity is

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sins and sin sin, sin, sin, sin, s failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure,

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And therefore we cannot obey the law, we cannot keep

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the law. That's why Jesus Christ came to save us

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by grace through faith, because we cannot save ourselves. And

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that so the entire history of humanity proves that we

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do not have a free will, because if we have

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a free will, we could freely choose to be perfect.

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Now what some people say, Well, you're free in this way,

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but you're not free in this way. That's not free.

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That's limited. That's like you're giving the ability to do this,

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but not this. That's not total freedom, that's partial freedom.

447
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That's semi freedom. That's not true freedom. And again, if

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I can't do certain things, then I'm not truly free.

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Hey you're free. Oh I'm gonna do this. Well, no,

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you can't do that. You can't do that, and you

451
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can't do that. But I'm free. Well no, you're not free. Okay,

452
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we'll see. Then now we have a problem. So I

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believe free will are already have a problem with this.

454
00:26:36.640 --> 00:26:42.519
All right, but please note that preveniant grace emphasizes God's

455
00:26:42.519 --> 00:26:47.000
grace that enables us. There's the enabling part to respond

456
00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:50.160
in faith while still preserving our free will. Now, what

457
00:26:50.200 --> 00:26:53.279
they mean by this is that prevenient grace now gives

458
00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:57.480
you the ability to believe, but it doesn't force you

459
00:26:57.559 --> 00:27:01.519
to believe. So your will is free in order to believe,

460
00:27:03.079 --> 00:27:06.279
but you don't have to believe. It's not gonna make

461
00:27:06.319 --> 00:27:09.880
you believe. Where Like in a reform view, I'm granted faith.

462
00:27:10.079 --> 00:27:12.319
God gives me the faith to believe. It's not that

463
00:27:12.519 --> 00:27:15.400
I mean I have faith, I believe. It's not like, well,

464
00:27:15.400 --> 00:27:17.319
he gives me the faith and I could or couldn't.

465
00:27:17.480 --> 00:27:19.720
He gives me the faith and I believe. He gives

466
00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:22.160
me the repentance and I change my mind. Those are

467
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:25.400
divine gifts given to us by God. Efhesians two eight.

468
00:27:25.759 --> 00:27:28.640
Grace and faith are gifts given to us by God.

469
00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:32.599
My faith is given to me and preventing it grace,

470
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:36.599
it's faith. You're just given the ability to believe. You

471
00:27:36.759 --> 00:27:39.599
may believe or you may not believe. You're just given

472
00:27:39.640 --> 00:27:43.240
the ability to believe. It's not that you're necessarily given faith.

473
00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:47.720
You're just given the ability to have faith. I think

474
00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:49.440
that's a Now, now some people are gonna say I'm

475
00:27:49.480 --> 00:27:51.640
not being accurate. There we'll get into it, maybe a

476
00:27:51.680 --> 00:27:56.480
more technical definition. All right, now again, now that's that. Now, Now,

477
00:27:56.519 --> 00:27:59.599
once the will becomes free, is it only free to believe?

478
00:28:00.359 --> 00:28:02.400
Or and then does the freedom go away? Do you

479
00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:06.359
get a temporary freedom or maybe it's a permanent freedom.

480
00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:09.880
You get a permanent freedom to believe. But that's it.

481
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:15.079
The freedom is limited only to faith in salvation. After that,

482
00:28:15.400 --> 00:28:18.440
you're not given any you don't have the freedom. So

483
00:28:18.480 --> 00:28:21.400
then is it like a kind of free will only

484
00:28:21.799 --> 00:28:25.039
in the ability to believe, not freedom in anywhere else?

485
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:29.640
Now you get into this mixture of Palagianism semipalagianism, and

486
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:32.200
now we get into all the different views throughout Church history.

487
00:28:34.240 --> 00:28:38.279
It acknowledges that God's grace is present before salvation, drawing

488
00:28:38.359 --> 00:28:41.000
us to Him without compromising our choice. So they want

489
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:44.400
to they want to protect two things. God. You need God.

490
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:46.720
You got to have God doing a work. He gives

491
00:28:46.759 --> 00:28:49.480
you the grace, He gives you the ability to believe.

492
00:28:49.960 --> 00:28:52.480
He may draw you but but, but but but you

493
00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:56.920
have the choice to refuse. Well, what's what where's the

494
00:28:57.079 --> 00:28:59.920
choice to refuse? Come? What would make me want to refuse?

495
00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:02.960
Where is that coming from? Where is that something arising

496
00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:05.200
in me going I don't want God's grace. I don't

497
00:29:05.240 --> 00:29:07.359
want God's faith. I don't want to go to heaven.

498
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:10.240
I want to go to hell. What is causing that

499
00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:14.240
to push back against it? Oh? That would be my

500
00:29:14.319 --> 00:29:17.119
sinful nature. But if I have a sinful nature, then

501
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:19.559
how is my will? Is my will set free from

502
00:29:19.559 --> 00:29:22.240
the sinful nature? Or is it only set free in

503
00:29:22.359 --> 00:29:25.119
order so that I can believe? But if I can believe,

504
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:28.480
but I have something in me that doesn't want to believe, well,

505
00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:31.079
then am I really free to believe? Oh? See, now

506
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:34.519
we're getting really complicated, right, But that's a good question. Hey,

507
00:29:34.799 --> 00:29:38.119
previnia grace gives you the ability to believe? Well, then

508
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:40.039
why do I not want to believe? Where is the

509
00:29:40.160 --> 00:29:43.039
not wanting to believe coming from? Where is that? I

510
00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:46.039
don't want God, I don't want Jesus, I don't want heaven.

511
00:29:46.319 --> 00:29:50.640
I want my sin. Where is that coming from? Oh,

512
00:29:50.680 --> 00:29:52.640
that's coming from my sinful nature. If I have a

513
00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:55.839
sinful nature, then the will is not actually free, because

514
00:29:55.880 --> 00:29:58.799
now there's something impacting the will. See if you say that,

515
00:29:58.880 --> 00:30:02.359
I'm enabled to believe, but there's something impacting my desire

516
00:30:02.440 --> 00:30:05.160
to believe, then my will is not actually free. So

517
00:30:05.319 --> 00:30:07.519
is it free or is it not free? If it's free,

518
00:30:07.640 --> 00:30:10.799
then that means you've eradicated this sinful nature completely and

519
00:30:10.880 --> 00:30:14.240
now the will is completely neutral and so so well,

520
00:30:14.319 --> 00:30:16.359
now we're kind of going back to a Pelagian view.

521
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:20.359
Oh now, see, remember when Christianity was so easy and

522
00:30:20.359 --> 00:30:23.759
you didn't know any of this stuff. See, the more

523
00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:27.359
theology you learn, the more complicated it becomes. That's why

524
00:30:27.400 --> 00:30:30.640
some people don't like theology. They hate it because it

525
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:34.000
is a mess. And trust me, go to multiple schools.

526
00:30:34.960 --> 00:30:36.920
But I got a degree from this school. I got

527
00:30:36.960 --> 00:30:39.000
a degree from this school. And guess what, they don't

528
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:41.759
agree on anything. Okay, I got a degree from this school.

529
00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:43.279
And sometimes by the time it's over, you just like

530
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.119
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. What did you

531
00:30:46.240 --> 00:30:49.000
learn in all of your life is studying theology? No

532
00:30:49.160 --> 00:30:57.000
one agrees on anything, all right. He goes on to say,

533
00:30:57.240 --> 00:30:59.599
I'd be thrilled to hear your thoughts on how prevenient

534
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:02.319
grace fits into the broader discussion of righteousness and grace.

535
00:31:02.880 --> 00:31:05.680
Have you considered exploring it in a future episode? I

536
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:09.759
believe it would add another layer to an already rich conversation. Well,

537
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:12.920
now by this point he's probably like, well, that guy's

538
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:15.279
an idiot. Why did I email him? I can understand,

539
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:17.759
I totally. I tried to be careful here. But at

540
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:19.359
the same time, I have to raise all of these

541
00:31:19.400 --> 00:31:23.519
theological questions, because that's the thing with theology. See, you

542
00:31:23.680 --> 00:31:26.920
ask one question, you put forth one idea, there's like

543
00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:32.240
thirty seven other contrary ideas and questions. It's never simple,

544
00:31:32.480 --> 00:31:35.960
it's never a straight line. It's theology is like a

545
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:39.640
ball of yarn. It's just all wrapped together. You say

546
00:31:39.720 --> 00:31:42.079
one thing, Well, then what about this? You talk about

547
00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:44.480
free will? Well, what about a sinful nature? You get

548
00:31:44.519 --> 00:31:46.200
rid of the sinful nature, then the will is free.

549
00:31:46.240 --> 00:31:47.720
If the will is free, then it can do. Well

550
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:49.759
what about this? And what about that? And what about

551
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:52.559
this and all? And you've got to just kind of

552
00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:55.519
pull like one string from the ball of yarn and go, okay,

553
00:31:55.559 --> 00:31:57.759
well I got one string. Now what some people do.

554
00:31:57.880 --> 00:31:59.799
They'll pull out one string from the ball of yarn,

555
00:32:00.039 --> 00:32:02.200
lay it down and go see it simple, Yeah, because

556
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:04.359
you pull that from the rest of the bawl of yarn.

557
00:32:04.400 --> 00:32:08.839
But it's all interconnected, and it becomes convoluted and complicated.

558
00:32:08.839 --> 00:32:11.000
I'm not seeing the emailer is doing that. I'm saying

559
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:14.480
this is the way it happens. The emailer goes on

560
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:16.839
to say thank you for the work you do. I

561
00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:20.400
always look forward to your podcast, keep inspiring and chilling

562
00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:24.720
us to think deeper, looking forward to your next episode.

563
00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:27.640
And what I love about this emailer they give their

564
00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:30.680
first name, they give their last name, they even give

565
00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:33.519
their phone number. I do love that. I love that.

566
00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:38.599
Typically the people who attack you no name, no phone number.

567
00:32:38.839 --> 00:32:41.680
In many cases, when you reply to the email, that

568
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:45.440
email has been closed. They created a temporary email account

569
00:32:45.480 --> 00:32:47.680
to attack you, and then they disappear. Oh I can't

570
00:32:47.720 --> 00:32:50.039
stand that. So I do appreciate that. And again, let

571
00:32:50.119 --> 00:32:52.799
me make it very clear, this is not about the person.

572
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:54.960
This is about me trying to take this concept of

573
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:57.920
proveniate grace. Anything I say is not directed towards the

574
00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:00.759
person that per I don't know everything the person believes

575
00:33:00.759 --> 00:33:03.720
about prevenient grace. So this is not in any way

576
00:33:03.799 --> 00:33:06.400
an attack upon a person. It's not even an attack

577
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:09.640
upon their belief. It's just like we've got this I take.

578
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:13.000
When it comes to theology, it's not personal. Right, it's

579
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:16.599
not personal. If I get into a debate about theology

580
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:19.640
what you have. Now, sometimes I'm not I don't always

581
00:33:19.720 --> 00:33:22.079
do it well, but I try to remember. No, let's

582
00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:25.200
just step away from persons. It's not you me. We

583
00:33:25.359 --> 00:33:28.200
have this theological idea, we debate about the theological idea,

584
00:33:28.440 --> 00:33:31.359
and then we go back. It's not a personal thing.

585
00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:34.400
I don't want to define you by that theology, and

586
00:33:34.480 --> 00:33:36.640
I don't want you to define me by my theology,

587
00:33:36.839 --> 00:33:39.599
because we're more than just a theological belief that's just

588
00:33:39.720 --> 00:33:42.000
a part of us. Does that make sense? Okay, so

589
00:33:42.599 --> 00:33:45.680
let's do some work here. Let's do some work here

590
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:49.319
in prevenient grace. I got pages of notes here going

591
00:33:49.400 --> 00:33:52.200
all the way back to kind of the things we discussed.

592
00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:55.519
All right, but let's so let's try to consider this.

593
00:33:55.839 --> 00:33:58.079
We're just going to do this in a general sense. First,

594
00:33:58.359 --> 00:34:02.599
let's try to figure out and our broader discussion about

595
00:34:02.680 --> 00:34:08.079
grace enabling, because that's how this all started. Is Ambassador

596
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:14.960
Baptist College chapel service was like grace enables you, And

597
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:17.800
I'm like, I believe it was Ambassador Baptist College if

598
00:34:17.800 --> 00:34:20.119
I remember correctly, And I was like, way what so,

599
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:23.079
how would then the concept of prevene it grace. See

600
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:24.880
when I look at the word, say how good I've done?

601
00:34:24.920 --> 00:34:29.320
Really good? Everyone applaud I haven't said pervinia. I've said

602
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:32.800
preveny it grace every single time. Right, come on, Okay,

603
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:36.079
nobody's impressed. Okay, I'm impressed. Or right, proveniate grace? How

604
00:34:36.159 --> 00:34:39.199
does that concept? I'm having a little bit of fun here, people,

605
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:44.559
when you're dealing with something so academic and technical, I

606
00:34:44.639 --> 00:34:46.280
got to break it up a little bit, right, And

607
00:34:46.320 --> 00:34:49.079
if I can make a little fun of myself and

608
00:34:49.199 --> 00:34:51.519
how I may say a word, then I'm trying to

609
00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:54.639
just add a little levity. Okay, all right, some people

610
00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:57.199
miss the whole point with my whole joking about how

611
00:34:57.239 --> 00:35:01.079
to say And also sometimes when I stress I say

612
00:35:01.079 --> 00:35:03.320
it one way, they say it the other way. It

613
00:35:03.760 --> 00:35:07.119
hopefully then just places it in your brain and you'll

614
00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:10.159
never forget it. Okay, are so prevenian grace? How does

615
00:35:10.199 --> 00:35:15.519
Provenian grace fit into this discussion? All right? Now? If

616
00:35:15.559 --> 00:35:21.159
we take Provenian grace as understood in our many in theology,

617
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:23.320
right now, I only want to approach it and how

618
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:26.440
it's understood within our many a theology because it shows

619
00:35:26.559 --> 00:35:29.000
up in other places if we if we ignore that,

620
00:35:29.119 --> 00:35:32.599
then we don't know church history. Right. The idea of

621
00:35:32.679 --> 00:35:36.639
preveniate grace is that it's a grace that goes before.

622
00:35:37.480 --> 00:35:41.159
It goes before. That's the key. It goes before and

623
00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:47.159
it enables a person to respond to God's call to salvation.

624
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:52.239
It enables you, So it goes before. You're not saved,

625
00:35:52.519 --> 00:35:56.119
but prevenian grace now shows up and enables you to

626
00:35:56.280 --> 00:35:59.400
respond to the Gospel, and it gives you the ability

627
00:35:59.519 --> 00:36:03.159
to respond on Now, this is very important. It is

628
00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:09.360
not saving in itself. It doesn't save you. But this

629
00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:12.800
is how it's typically understood. It typically is understood that

630
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:18.840
it removes the effects of total depravity enough so that

631
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:21.880
a person can choose to believe the gospel. Now, this

632
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:26.679
is where it gets very convoluted. It doesn't remove all

633
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:31.440
of total depravity, but it removes enough of total depravity

634
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:36.239
so that now you can believe. You can. But again,

635
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:39.480
if there's still something holding you back, if there's still

636
00:36:39.559 --> 00:36:42.000
that sinful nature, that's going to be like, you don't

637
00:36:42.039 --> 00:36:44.119
want God, you want to serve yourself, you want to

638
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:47.760
love your sin. If that's still in you, well then

639
00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:50.920
how much freedom? Like then it becomes like, how do

640
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:54.559
you even measure this? You have now the freedom to believe,

641
00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:57.639
but you have this other part in you saying don't believe.

642
00:36:58.119 --> 00:37:01.599
So how free then is decision to believe? If you

643
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:04.559
also have something inside of you fighting against your desire

644
00:37:04.639 --> 00:37:09.559
to even believe, then how free? Now? I don't even

645
00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:13.360
know how you measure it or quantify it, all right,

646
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:17.679
but it just removes the effects of total depravity enough,

647
00:37:18.159 --> 00:37:22.239
not in total, so now you're not totally depraved. Now

648
00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:25.760
you're only fifty percent depraved or forty percent. I don't

649
00:37:25.760 --> 00:37:28.760
even know what the measurement is now. Please note this

650
00:37:28.960 --> 00:37:33.719
is very different than reform theology, where grace is effectual

651
00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:38.719
and irresistibly applied to the elect Now please note within

652
00:37:38.840 --> 00:37:40.480
the reform war, we've got to make sure we're very

653
00:37:40.519 --> 00:37:43.400
careful to understand this. There is kind of a common grace,

654
00:37:43.920 --> 00:37:47.559
and then there will be effectual grace. Common grace is

655
00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:50.800
resisted by everyone. Common grace can be resisted, it is

656
00:37:50.920 --> 00:37:55.559
resisted effectual grace, right and well, sometimes we could call

657
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:59.719
it the general call, the effectual call. I'm summarizing reform

658
00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:01.880
of the I'm not going to get into grace, a call,

659
00:38:02.760 --> 00:38:05.239
and all of it. So make sure I'm oversimplifying reform

660
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:07.840
theology here, right, But there's this idea that there's there's

661
00:38:07.840 --> 00:38:12.599
a part we can resist until it becomes irresistible, until

662
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:17.400
we receive the effectual call. Then at that point we

663
00:38:17.559 --> 00:38:21.039
will believe. That's in reform theology. Right, So there is

664
00:38:21.079 --> 00:38:25.320
an aspect of resisting until the call becomes there's the

665
00:38:25.519 --> 00:38:28.840
general call that well, I said, O, casing common grace

666
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:31.920
will go with, Well, you'll use general call and effectual

667
00:38:31.960 --> 00:38:35.840
call because that's more more thiologically precise language. The general

668
00:38:35.920 --> 00:38:39.079
call goes to everyone. The gospel is preach, people share

669
00:38:39.159 --> 00:38:42.920
the gospel, and everyone can resist the general call. It's

670
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:45.599
going to be resisted because we are totally depraved. The

671
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:49.519
effectual call is when then God calls the elect and

672
00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:53.239
he gives them faith. He literally gives them faith, He

673
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:56.840
changes their mind so then they will believe. So there's

674
00:38:56.880 --> 00:39:00.599
a slight prevenient grace doesn't save you, gives you the

675
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:03.800
ability now to choose to be saved because it removes

676
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:12.320
part of your total depravity. All right, So I asked AI,

677
00:39:12.599 --> 00:39:15.440
so does how does this kind of fit into the

678
00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:19.559
broader discussion and AI said, Well, if someone defines grace

679
00:39:19.639 --> 00:39:23.599
as enabling in the sense of Prevenian grace, it would

680
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:26.320
mean that grace gives a person the ability to obey,

681
00:39:27.079 --> 00:39:30.400
but obedience is still contingent upon their choice. Now, this

682
00:39:30.519 --> 00:39:35.320
gets really confusing. So in some ways, Provenian grace would say, yes,

683
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:40.199
this gives you the ability to obey, but it's dependent

684
00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:43.960
upon your choice. Okay, so I have the ability to obey,

685
00:39:45.039 --> 00:39:47.960
but I have the choice to disobey. What would motivate

686
00:39:48.039 --> 00:39:53.000
the choice to disobey? What would cause me not to obey?

687
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:57.519
What would cause me not to want to obey? If

688
00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:02.000
if that's my sinful nature, Well then I'm not completely free,

689
00:40:02.119 --> 00:40:05.599
am I? Because there's something inside holding me back? And

690
00:40:06.199 --> 00:40:09.119
if I have any ability to obey, how far does

691
00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:13.679
that go? Do I have the ability to obey perfectly? No,

692
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:16.519
Well then I'm not free to obey. If there's anything

693
00:40:16.599 --> 00:40:27.880
limiting my obedience, then I'm not free in this framework

694
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:31.519
of preventing it grace, this is AI, Grace is necessary,

695
00:40:32.559 --> 00:40:36.079
but it is not sufficient cause of obedience. Humans must

696
00:40:36.159 --> 00:40:39.719
cooperate with it. So this is kind of like a cooper.

697
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:42.920
God gives you now ability, but you've got to cooperate

698
00:40:43.000 --> 00:40:46.239
with it. Well, that sounds very infused righteous. That sounds

699
00:40:46.519 --> 00:40:50.480
very infused righteousness. Where righteousnes if you read Catholicism, I

700
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:52.599
should pull up the Catholic Catechism. I've got it a

701
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:55.679
run her somewhere. It's infused in you, and you have

702
00:40:55.760 --> 00:40:58.840
to cooperate with it. So you're given an ability, but

703
00:40:58.920 --> 00:41:02.719
you've got to cooperate with the ability. That sounds so

704
00:41:02.960 --> 00:41:08.079
Roman Catholic it's not even funny. All right. Now, AI

705
00:41:08.239 --> 00:41:11.039
wants to go back to the Ambassador Baptist College and

706
00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:15.519
wants to talk about that, all right, So I'm not

707
00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:19.400
gonna get into all of that, okay, because Ai Ai

708
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:22.639
Ai had some major issues with the Ambassador Baptist College

709
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:26.119
message a A I was still Ai wants to continue

710
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:28.159
to talk about it, all right. So then so I

711
00:41:29.199 --> 00:41:31.280
finally had to kind of say, hey, Ai, okay, I

712
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:33.639
get it. You didn't you didn't like the chapel message,

713
00:41:33.880 --> 00:41:36.320
but I need you to answer this question. How does

714
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:39.159
Prevenan grace fit into this discussion. I need you to

715
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:43.039
focus on this. Stop worrying about Ambassador Baptist College. So

716
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:46.880
AI said, Well, if Prevenyan grace is emphasized, then The

717
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:51.960
issue is whether grace merely allows obedience or actually produces obedience.

718
00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:55.920
So if preveniate grace is emphasized, then you have to

719
00:41:55.960 --> 00:41:59.880
figure out does it only allow or does it produce?

720
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:03.079
If it only allows obedience, then of course my question

721
00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:05.480
is this is not AI. Well, then what is the

722
00:42:05.559 --> 00:42:09.320
thing going against that I'm allowed to do it, but

723
00:42:09.400 --> 00:42:11.800
there's something pulling me not to do it. Well, then

724
00:42:13.480 --> 00:42:16.360
it's kind of freedom, but not freedom. Hey you're free,

725
00:42:16.920 --> 00:42:18.920
but you still have this thing inside of you that's

726
00:42:18.960 --> 00:42:21.280
going to go against everything that your freedom wants to do. Well,

727
00:42:21.320 --> 00:42:30.119
then now I'm how does that work? Now, that's preveniate grace.

728
00:42:30.320 --> 00:42:33.960
So that but now AI goes on to say, if

729
00:42:34.239 --> 00:42:39.119
enabling grace is emphasized post conversion, then we risk blurring

730
00:42:39.159 --> 00:42:43.320
the line between justification and sanctification and moving towards confused righteousness. Now,

731
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:48.599
if preveny it grace, that's kind of before, right, and

732
00:42:48.679 --> 00:42:51.320
so now we still have this convoluted part here. But

733
00:42:51.440 --> 00:42:56.400
if that proveniate grace is applied post conversion, well, now

734
00:42:56.559 --> 00:43:01.280
ladies and gentlemen, now we're right back to Hey, you're

735
00:43:01.320 --> 00:43:04.320
infused with this power, you have this ability, and so

736
00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:12.159
now it's all basically infused righteousness. So then AI starts

737
00:43:12.199 --> 00:43:16.159
asking questions or starts making statements. If grace is truly

738
00:43:16.320 --> 00:43:21.440
an enabling force and the way at least some speak, well,

739
00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:24.360
then why do believers still struggle so much with sin?

740
00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:27.239
If you're enabled? Why is there a struggle? If I

741
00:43:27.320 --> 00:43:30.320
am enabled? Well, then where is the struggle with sin

742
00:43:30.400 --> 00:43:34.840
coming from? Even AI recognizes this is a problem, right sin?

743
00:43:34.960 --> 00:43:38.000
There is sin not there? Does it remove completely the

744
00:43:38.360 --> 00:43:41.400
impact of total depravity? Or does it not? What is

745
00:43:41.519 --> 00:43:47.159
going on? All? Right? AI says, why don't we see

746
00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:50.519
tangible evidence of this enabling leading to greater victory over sin?

747
00:43:50.599 --> 00:43:54.840
And all believers? Wouldn't truly an enabling grace eventually lead

748
00:43:54.920 --> 00:43:58.519
to some reaching near sinless? States? Those are questions put

749
00:43:58.599 --> 00:44:02.119
forth by AI. That's not my questions. AI is asking

750
00:44:02.199 --> 00:44:05.639
that question. Let me read that entire paragraph. If grace

751
00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:09.199
is truly an enabling force in the way some suggest,

752
00:44:09.559 --> 00:44:11.800
then why do believers still struggle so much with sin?

753
00:44:12.480 --> 00:44:15.559
Why don't we see tangible evidence of this enabling lead

754
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:18.719
this enabling leading to greater victory over sin? And all

755
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:24.559
believers wouldn't truly wouldn't a truly enabling grace eventually leads

756
00:44:24.679 --> 00:44:30.159
some to reaching near sinless states, and I'm like, well yes,

757
00:44:30.400 --> 00:44:32.119
And then a ashler is asking me all kinds of

758
00:44:32.159 --> 00:44:34.440
other questions because AI is like, do you think that

759
00:44:34.519 --> 00:44:37.679
this is what is happening in Christianity? Do you think

760
00:44:37.719 --> 00:44:40.159
this is I'm like, yeah, I think Christianity has lost

761
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:44.519
his ever living mind and this enabling it. See, everybody

762
00:44:44.599 --> 00:44:49.400
wants to have some kind of enabling somewhere, post pre somewhere.

763
00:44:50.480 --> 00:44:54.079
But once you say grace enables, now you've got to

764
00:44:54.079 --> 00:44:57.119
either you've got to cut it off. Hey, Provenian Now

765
00:44:57.280 --> 00:44:59.719
some in Provinian grace may say, well, it just allows

766
00:44:59.760 --> 00:45:02.599
you to believe, and then after that you do no

767
00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:05.719
longer have an enabling power. It's only enabling to get

768
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:09.000
you to faith. But then wait a minute, a lot

769
00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:12.159
of people don't believe, So why do people? Why do

770
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:16.440
the people? Why do some people not believe? What's causing it?

771
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:20.039
What's causing some not to believe? Well it would be

772
00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:23.000
internal depravity. Well, if you still have an internal depravity,

773
00:45:23.400 --> 00:45:28.559
then are you truly free? Because because well that person

774
00:45:28.719 --> 00:45:32.400
chose and that person don't, Well, then guess what God enabled?

775
00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:35.000
But you were smarter than that person. So you're gonna

776
00:45:35.000 --> 00:45:37.679
get some of the credit for this. See, you, you

777
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:40.199
were given the power to believe. They were given the

778
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:42.840
power to believe. I'm sorry, you were given the ability

779
00:45:42.920 --> 00:45:45.280
to believe. They were given the ability to believe. But

780
00:45:45.519 --> 00:45:49.599
you were able to overcome all of that sin nature

781
00:45:49.679 --> 00:45:51.800
inside of you and say I'm not gonna listen to

782
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:54.760
my sin I'm gonna listen to God. Well, congratulations, you

783
00:45:54.920 --> 00:45:57.480
get the glory. That person over there, well, they were

784
00:45:57.559 --> 00:46:00.639
a complete moron. They were complete any I said of

785
00:46:00.840 --> 00:46:04.719
using this enabling power. They kept giving in to their

786
00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:08.159
sinful nature and they refused to believe. They're an idiot.

787
00:46:08.519 --> 00:46:11.920
You're smart. So who gets glory? You do? Don't tell

788
00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:14.440
me God gets the glory. You get the glory. God

789
00:46:14.599 --> 00:46:16.800
just said here, I'm gonna give you the ability, but

790
00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:19.039
it's up to you. Well, then, now, if it's up

791
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:23.039
to you, you get the glory. You did the choosing you.

792
00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:26.639
You fought against your sinful nature. You did not let

793
00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:29.519
it stop you from keeping you from believing. But the

794
00:46:29.599 --> 00:46:34.480
person over there, they weren't as successful as you. They

795
00:46:34.559 --> 00:46:36.960
weren't as strong as you. And then wait, maybe the

796
00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:39.760
reason this person wasn't strong as you is I don't know.

797
00:46:40.159 --> 00:46:42.400
Maybe you were raised in a Christian home and you

798
00:46:42.480 --> 00:46:45.280
were around Christianity and you were taught all the benefits

799
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:47.199
of it, and you were given all the benefits. And

800
00:46:47.280 --> 00:46:51.000
this person was raised being molested, beaten, and their lives

801
00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:54.440
absolutely were horrible, and so they never were able to

802
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:57.079
really believe because they had a hard time believing because

803
00:46:57.079 --> 00:46:59.480
of the things that that happened to them. Forget the

804
00:46:59.559 --> 00:47:03.119
deprivate the inside of them. Wait, so, but you still

805
00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:06.760
get the credit because you chose. God didn't give you

806
00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.199
the faith, He just gave you the ability to believe.

807
00:47:09.239 --> 00:47:12.719
And everyone gets the equal ability. But we don't take

808
00:47:12.760 --> 00:47:16.079
any to consideration the external circumstances that may change that,

809
00:47:16.400 --> 00:47:20.719
or how different people may fight against the internal depravity.

810
00:47:20.920 --> 00:47:24.199
And how are you fighting against the internal depravity when

811
00:47:24.239 --> 00:47:27.440
you're not even saved. Well, you're fighting against the internal

812
00:47:27.679 --> 00:47:30.280
depravity because God now has freed you from some aspects

813
00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:32.199
of it, but he didn't free you from all aspects

814
00:47:32.239 --> 00:47:41.320
of it. See, this becomes more complicated. So I was like, Okay,

815
00:47:41.519 --> 00:47:43.199
now I could ask all of these questions. I'm like,

816
00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:45.039
but let's let's take a step back. Let's take a

817
00:47:45.079 --> 00:47:47.280
step back Oh man, we're at forty seven minutes. We're

818
00:47:47.320 --> 00:47:49.000
not even getting any We're close, but we're going to

819
00:47:49.119 --> 00:47:50.599
try to go through this. I'm like, you know what,

820
00:47:51.559 --> 00:47:53.920
what I want to demonstrate here is just how convoluted

821
00:47:54.000 --> 00:47:57.000
and confusing this all can get. But let's dig into

822
00:47:57.079 --> 00:47:59.199
the history here, and it may even get a little

823
00:47:59.239 --> 00:48:02.280
bit more confusion. First, let's start with a definition. Let's

824
00:48:02.320 --> 00:48:04.639
try to at least define proveniate grace. We didn't really

825
00:48:04.679 --> 00:48:07.800
define it too much. Let's try to define it. Typically,

826
00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:10.840
proveniate grace refers to the grace that goes before. We

827
00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:15.079
did say that it is the grace of God that

828
00:48:15.320 --> 00:48:20.679
precedes human decision and inables fallen individuals to respond to

829
00:48:20.719 --> 00:48:24.639
the Gospel. The doctrine is most associated with our mini

830
00:48:24.679 --> 00:48:27.840
in theology, and it is a response to the reformed

831
00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:34.079
doctrine of total depravity and irresistible grace. Preveniate grace does

832
00:48:34.199 --> 00:48:38.239
not regenerate, So when it comes to preveniate grace, you're

833
00:48:38.280 --> 00:48:43.559
not being regenerated. Okay, it does not save you, but

834
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:49.000
it counter acts the effects of original sin just enough

835
00:48:49.360 --> 00:48:52.679
to allow you to freely choose or reject God. So

836
00:48:53.159 --> 00:48:57.280
you've got original sin, but somehow it freely allows you

837
00:48:57.400 --> 00:48:59.760
to do so. So does everyone have the same level

838
00:48:59.800 --> 00:49:04.320
of freedom? And if someone doesn't believe, is that simply

839
00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:07.920
the will is completely neutral and it's not being impacted

840
00:49:08.000 --> 00:49:10.880
by any form of the inward sin. But some people

841
00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:14.840
don't believe. It's got to be coming from somewhere unless

842
00:49:14.840 --> 00:49:17.559
you're gonna blame it all on external circumstances. Oh, this

843
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:24.519
gets all confusing at this point. It is resistible, meaning

844
00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:27.840
individuals can refuse this grace and remain in their sinful state.

845
00:49:27.880 --> 00:49:30.920
Now wait a minute, so you can refuse it, but

846
00:49:31.039 --> 00:49:33.199
what is causing you to refuse it? And says then

847
00:49:33.199 --> 00:49:35.159
you can remain in your sinful state. So do you

848
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:37.920
stop being in your sinful state for a period of

849
00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:42.360
time prevenient grace shows up, you're not in a sinful state,

850
00:49:42.760 --> 00:49:46.599
Then you're completely morally neutral. Then you choose, don't choose.

851
00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:48.480
Once you make your choice, then you go back to

852
00:49:48.559 --> 00:49:52.599
your sinful nature. Is that like a pro probation period?

853
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:56.599
And I'm not saying this to be sarcastic. Whenever we

854
00:49:56.719 --> 00:49:59.920
make these psyllological claims, it doesn't matter any side reform

855
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:03.400
non reform. There's always a million questions that come along

856
00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:05.079
with it, and you know what you're gonna find. No

857
00:50:05.360 --> 00:50:10.480
system can answer the system the questions clean cleanly reforms can't.

858
00:50:10.559 --> 00:50:18.559
Non reform nobody can because it gets messy. So if

859
00:50:18.599 --> 00:50:21.920
we try to summarize the doctrine, prevenient grace as universal,

860
00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:26.480
it's given to all people, not just the elect. It enables,

861
00:50:27.320 --> 00:50:31.800
but it does not ensure a faith response. Unlike irresistible grace.

862
00:50:32.320 --> 00:50:34.599
It does not guarantee that a person will believe. So

863
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:38.480
it just enables. There's the enabling part. It enables, but

864
00:50:38.599 --> 00:50:42.519
it doesn't guarantee. Again, why so who gets the credit?

865
00:50:43.239 --> 00:50:45.239
You get the credit because you chose and the other

866
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:49.199
person didn't choose. Or is the reason some choose and

867
00:50:49.239 --> 00:50:51.760
don't choose. It's because of the internal depravity. But you've

868
00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:53.639
been freed from at least part of it, Like I

869
00:50:53.719 --> 00:50:56.679
don't know, in some way, somehow a human being is

870
00:50:56.719 --> 00:50:59.880
going to get credit. Okay, it restores limited free when

871
00:51:00.079 --> 00:51:02.559
please note that. Now this is where it gets maybe

872
00:51:02.599 --> 00:51:08.920
even more complicated. It's restored limited free will. Humanity has

873
00:51:09.039 --> 00:51:12.599
fallen and unable to choose God apart from grace. Proveniant

874
00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:16.119
grace restores a person's ability to respond to the Gospel.

875
00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:18.840
So In some cases, proveniate grace will be like, no, no,

876
00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:22.920
it's just temporary, it's limited. It only allows you to

877
00:51:23.000 --> 00:51:27.079
respond to the gospel. That's it. It only frees you

878
00:51:27.199 --> 00:51:31.239
to do that. But again, then is it freeing me

879
00:51:31.639 --> 00:51:34.519
completely from my depravity so that I can choose freely?

880
00:51:36.440 --> 00:51:39.079
But if someone doesn't believe, what's causing them not to believe?

881
00:51:39.320 --> 00:51:41.519
What is the thing causing them not to believe? If

882
00:51:41.559 --> 00:51:44.760
you point to anything internally, then you're not being truly

883
00:51:44.840 --> 00:51:52.920
freed from your original sin. It's resistible. Unlike the reform

884
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:55.519
view of grace, a person can reject proveniant grace and

885
00:51:55.599 --> 00:51:59.000
remain in their sinful state. It precedes salvation, but does

886
00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:02.559
not save. It allows people to believe, but salvation will

887
00:52:02.599 --> 00:52:06.039
depend on their faith response. Please note that what does

888
00:52:06.079 --> 00:52:13.519
salvation depend on your faith response? Your faith response meaning

889
00:52:13.920 --> 00:52:18.599
you get the credit. You are the one who believed,

890
00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:21.559
they chose not to believe. You get the credit. So

891
00:52:21.719 --> 00:52:24.119
there is some glory and what you did. And if

892
00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:26.920
you see the call to faith as a command, then

893
00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:29.199
you've been given the ability to obey the command and

894
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:34.239
you obeyed it on your own. Well, now, now is

895
00:52:34.280 --> 00:52:36.440
that a state? Is that salvation by works, and now

896
00:52:36.480 --> 00:52:41.679
we get into all kinds of issues. Now, what is

897
00:52:41.760 --> 00:52:45.559
the origins of this, Well, the early Church. The roots

898
00:52:45.599 --> 00:52:48.519
of prevenient grace can be seen in early Church discussions

899
00:52:48.519 --> 00:52:51.519
about grace and free will. If we go to Augustine,

900
00:52:52.719 --> 00:52:56.639
what three point fifty four four thirty eighty somewhere around now,

901
00:52:56.679 --> 00:53:01.400
three fifty four thirty, three fifty four thirty two, somewhere

902
00:53:01.400 --> 00:53:04.320
around that time. I think it's three fifty four to

903
00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:09.519
four thirty, he strongly emphasized the necessity of grace for salvation,

904
00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:13.159
which laid the foundation for the debates. Augustine was like, Hey,

905
00:53:13.400 --> 00:53:16.639
you've got to have grace for salvation. You got to

906
00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:19.039
have it, and that begins to lay the debates, right

907
00:53:19.199 --> 00:53:21.000
lays the French. Oh we have to have grace. Oh

908
00:53:21.039 --> 00:53:23.159
we have to have grace. So how does this grace work?

909
00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:26.960
Does this grace? Is it proveniate grace? Is it irresistible grace? Like? What?

910
00:53:27.239 --> 00:53:32.320
How do we understand it? Then we know Pelagius comes along, right,

911
00:53:32.440 --> 00:53:37.280
Pelagius comes along, he's what three fifty four four eighteen, he's,

912
00:53:37.360 --> 00:53:41.199
you know, basically the same same timeframe as Augustine. That's

913
00:53:41.239 --> 00:53:45.360
where you get into the Augustinian Pelagian debate here rejected.

914
00:53:45.480 --> 00:53:50.599
Pelagius just completely rejected the necessity of divine grace, arguing

915
00:53:50.639 --> 00:53:53.800
that humans could obey God without supernatural aid. Pelagius is

916
00:53:53.840 --> 00:53:57.000
like none, you don't need grace. You can just choose

917
00:53:57.079 --> 00:53:59.840
to do it because your will is completely free because

918
00:53:59.880 --> 00:54:05.000
you did not inherit a sinful nature from Adam Pelagia.

919
00:54:05.440 --> 00:54:08.000
I look, I admit I admire Pelagius. He doesn't play

920
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:10.000
this game. Well, you have a sinful nature, but you

921
00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:12.400
don't have a sinful nature. Well you can't, but you can't,

922
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:15.000
you could, you should. No, Pelagians is just straight up,

923
00:54:15.079 --> 00:54:17.800
you don't have a sinful nature. Stop blaming it on Adam.

924
00:54:18.199 --> 00:54:21.960
Just too good. I'm second tired of this weak Christianity

925
00:54:22.159 --> 00:54:25.440
that makes excuses for their sin. You don't have any excuse.

926
00:54:25.639 --> 00:54:28.440
You're free. You can do it, so just obey and

927
00:54:28.599 --> 00:54:32.920
stop pretending that you can't. You gotta kind of admire Pelagias. Well,

928
00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:34.639
the rest of us is like, well, I can, but

929
00:54:34.760 --> 00:54:37.159
a can, A could, but a should? Maybe I can.

930
00:54:37.440 --> 00:54:38.920
Well I can do this, but I can't do that.

931
00:54:39.239 --> 00:54:41.239
Maybe I'm free here, but I'm not free here. It

932
00:54:41.360 --> 00:54:47.639
gets all convoluted at least Pelagias picked aside. Okay, semi Pallagianism.

933
00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:51.239
Now now we're up to like the fifth century. They

934
00:54:51.400 --> 00:54:54.159
hold that humans take the first step towards God and

935
00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:57.400
then grace aids them. So you you're the one who

936
00:54:57.440 --> 00:54:59.280
takes the first step and then grace steps in and

937
00:54:59.360 --> 00:55:04.199
kind of helps. Right, So now we get to medieval theology.

938
00:55:04.800 --> 00:55:07.000
We jump to the Council of Orange, which is around

939
00:55:07.159 --> 00:55:10.199
five twenty nine a D. Remember I told you everybody

940
00:55:10.280 --> 00:55:13.960
needs to study the ecumenical councils and the different councils.

941
00:55:14.199 --> 00:55:18.239
Now we're five twenty nine AD. Now they reject Council

942
00:55:18.280 --> 00:55:22.119
of Orange completely rejects Pallagianism. They affirm that grace is

943
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:25.559
necessary for salvation, but they didn't go as far as

944
00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:30.480
embracing full Augustinian predestination. So they say, yes, you need

945
00:55:30.599 --> 00:55:33.159
grace now the minute, see the minute you say grace

946
00:55:33.320 --> 00:55:36.480
is necessary. That's where you're going to get into preveniant grace. Well,

947
00:55:36.519 --> 00:55:39.400
grace is necessary, but how does it work? Now? See

948
00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:42.119
the issue with preveniant grace and say reform people is

949
00:55:42.199 --> 00:55:46.039
both sides say grace is necessary. Now how does it work?

950
00:55:46.440 --> 00:55:48.719
Not only does how does it work. Now, how do

951
00:55:48.800 --> 00:55:52.079
you understand me? Us? Am I free? Am I not free?

952
00:55:52.400 --> 00:55:54.400
Do I have a sinful nature? Have I been freed

953
00:55:54.480 --> 00:55:56.880
from that sinful nature? Now you get into some very

954
00:55:56.960 --> 00:56:02.119
specific questions. Now and jump to the twelve hundreds, twelve

955
00:56:02.199 --> 00:56:06.320
twenty five to twelve seventy four. Thomas Aquinas shows up

956
00:56:06.360 --> 00:56:12.039
on the stage. Now, Thomas Aquinas develops a concept of

957
00:56:12.119 --> 00:56:17.519
Provenian grace. He develops a system of Provenian grace. Oh wait,

958
00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:25.119
within Catholicism, Prevenia grace and Catholicism are much more in

959
00:56:25.239 --> 00:56:27.559
line than anybody wants to admit. And see, this is

960
00:56:27.599 --> 00:56:29.679
where my problem would get because anything that's going to

961
00:56:29.760 --> 00:56:31.840
lead me back to Catholicism, why am I going to

962
00:56:31.880 --> 00:56:34.880
play around with kind of catholic That's why I get

963
00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:37.000
frustrated with some of the lordship and some of the

964
00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:41.400
other forms of Protestantism that almost puts forth an infused

965
00:56:41.480 --> 00:56:44.400
righteous idea. The minute you're gonna lead me back to Catholicism,

966
00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:46.760
Why am I gonna pretend with you guys that you're

967
00:56:46.840 --> 00:56:50.719
the cool non Catholics when reality you are more Catholics

968
00:56:50.760 --> 00:56:52.880
than Catholics. Want to just go back and go all

969
00:56:52.920 --> 00:56:55.960
the way to go go home, as Catholics would say,

970
00:56:56.039 --> 00:57:00.800
let's just got stop pretending well. Provenian grace. Thomas Aquanas

971
00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:05.079
shows up. Now he's gonna he's gonna shape Prevenian grace

972
00:57:05.239 --> 00:57:11.559
within a Catholic framework, but it's there. Now we go

973
00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:14.000
from the twelve hundreds and we jump to the fifteen hundreds,

974
00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:16.960
and now we're during the Reformation. Calvin shows up on

975
00:57:17.039 --> 00:57:20.400
the scene what fifteen oh nine, fifteen sixty four. He

976
00:57:20.719 --> 00:57:25.519
rejects proveniant grace and he emphasizes total depravity and then

977
00:57:25.599 --> 00:57:28.599
what is known as irresistible grace. Now understand, irresistible grace

978
00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:33.000
doesn't mean it's always it's always irresistible. We resist until

979
00:57:33.679 --> 00:57:35.599
the saving work of God begins. Okay, so just make

980
00:57:35.639 --> 00:57:38.440
sure you understand that, because that can be a misunderstood

981
00:57:38.440 --> 00:57:40.559
as well. And I'm not saying that's easy to understand.

982
00:57:40.679 --> 00:57:42.840
There's questions that could be asked there. But we are

983
00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:46.599
discussing proveniant grace in this episode. Now, Martin Luther comes

984
00:57:46.639 --> 00:57:50.599
on the scene. Actually he comes on the scene before

985
00:57:50.920 --> 00:57:53.880
Calvin because he's born before Calvin. Calvin's what fifteen oh

986
00:57:54.039 --> 00:57:58.840
nine and Luther's what fourteen something, fourteen fourteen eighty three,

987
00:57:58.920 --> 00:58:02.079
I think is somewhere along those lines. Luther is born.

988
00:58:02.119 --> 00:58:04.239
So Luther. Actually I should have put Luther before Calvin

989
00:58:04.239 --> 00:58:07.760
if I'm going in chronological order. But Luther shows up

990
00:58:07.800 --> 00:58:10.760
now his view is more in line with Calvin, emphasizing

991
00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:15.840
human inability to respond to God without divine intervention. Now,

992
00:58:16.039 --> 00:58:19.000
please note proveniate grace. And many of the reformers are

993
00:58:19.079 --> 00:58:22.880
in agreement that we need grace, we need divine intervention

994
00:58:23.239 --> 00:58:25.840
or we will not respond. That is one thing that

995
00:58:25.920 --> 00:58:32.440
we do have agreement on. Right, we cannot respond without

996
00:58:32.519 --> 00:58:35.599
God intervening. We have to have divine intervention. I am

997
00:58:35.679 --> 00:58:40.400
complete agreement with that. Now, of course, Jacob Arminius shows

998
00:58:40.440 --> 00:58:43.159
up on the scene fifteen sixty to sixteen oh nine.

999
00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:47.800
Here we go. Now, Jacob Arminius is where it all

1000
00:58:47.880 --> 00:58:52.199
really starts. He develops Provenian grace as a response to Calvinism.

1001
00:58:52.400 --> 00:58:56.960
He does not like Calvinism, and so he creates preveniate

1002
00:58:57.079 --> 00:59:00.559
grace because he in some cases he may agree with

1003
00:59:00.639 --> 00:59:03.079
the idea that God needs to intervene, but he doesn't

1004
00:59:03.320 --> 00:59:05.840
like the way the Calvinists describes it. So he's got

1005
00:59:05.920 --> 00:59:07.840
to find this kind of a middle of the road. Well,

1006
00:59:07.880 --> 00:59:10.280
God's got to intervene, but we're not going to go

1007
00:59:10.320 --> 00:59:12.039
all the way the way the Calvinists go, so we

1008
00:59:12.159 --> 00:59:13.639
have to have this kind of middle of the road.

1009
00:59:13.960 --> 00:59:18.119
So he argues that humans are totally depraved, God extends

1010
00:59:18.199 --> 00:59:23.760
proveniate grace to everyone, making faith possible. So now God

1011
00:59:23.880 --> 00:59:26.840
just gives you, the everyone the ability to believe. Now,

1012
00:59:26.920 --> 00:59:31.119
the way this was taught to me and my first

1013
00:59:31.239 --> 00:59:34.320
independent fundamental Baptist school that I went to, a Twin

1014
00:59:34.440 --> 00:59:38.000
Cities Bible Institute in Papilion, Nebraska. The first one I

1015
00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:40.199
went to, they were like, okay, think of it this

1016
00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:44.159
way we have. We're totally depraved, but inside of us

1017
00:59:44.320 --> 00:59:48.920
is our will, and our will is insulated. It's protected.

1018
00:59:49.079 --> 00:59:51.280
It has like a shield around it, it has a

1019
00:59:51.440 --> 00:59:54.440
wall around it, and that depravity does not impact our will.

1020
00:59:54.639 --> 00:59:58.320
So our will is completely free to choose to believe. Now.

1021
00:59:58.400 --> 01:00:00.800
The only problem with that they didn't necessarily call it

1022
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:03.239
preveniate grace, but they wanted the will to be free,

1023
01:00:03.320 --> 01:00:04.639
So then I would be like, well, if the will

1024
01:00:04.719 --> 01:00:07.159
is free, then guess what. I don't need grace then

1025
01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:11.519
to obey God because the will is free. So if

1026
01:00:11.599 --> 01:00:14.800
the will is free, is the will free only to

1027
01:00:14.840 --> 01:00:16.800
believe in God, or is the will then to be

1028
01:00:16.840 --> 01:00:21.920
able to obey God now prevenient grace, and some try

1029
01:00:21.960 --> 01:00:24.559
to limit it. Well, so it only is free in

1030
01:00:24.679 --> 01:00:28.559
this one minuscule area, I mean a significant area, So

1031
01:00:28.639 --> 01:00:32.880
I don't want to say minuscule, this one area, say

1032
01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:39.280
that gets all confusing. So then that's that's the Reformation period.

1033
01:00:39.400 --> 01:00:42.320
Now we jump to the Wesleyans and and kind of

1034
01:00:42.480 --> 01:00:46.000
and modern Arminianism. Wesley shows up with seventeen oh three

1035
01:00:46.079 --> 01:00:49.639
seventeen ninety one. He develops even more this idea of

1036
01:00:49.679 --> 01:00:54.320
preveniate grace, making it central to Methodist theology. He emphasizes

1037
01:00:54.360 --> 01:00:57.280
that God's grace is given to all, enabling them to

1038
01:00:57.400 --> 01:01:00.719
accept or reject salvation. Really it's the same, it's the

1039
01:01:00.840 --> 01:01:04.000
modern idea of Provenian grace. Really, Jacob Arminius and John

1040
01:01:04.039 --> 01:01:06.079
Wesley are very much in the same page. I mean,

1041
01:01:06.119 --> 01:01:08.880
I could probably try to fall find distinctions, but you

1042
01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:12.960
get the idea. Then that goes to modern Armenianism. Prevenian

1043
01:01:13.039 --> 01:01:18.760
grace remains a formal or foundational doctrine and Methodist free will,

1044
01:01:18.840 --> 01:01:23.119
Baptists and other Armenian theological traditions well as everyone knows

1045
01:01:23.320 --> 01:01:26.239
I'm not a Methodist, definitely not a free will Baptist,

1046
01:01:26.800 --> 01:01:30.559
definitely not an Armenian. So I then obviously don't fit

1047
01:01:30.599 --> 01:01:33.239
in anywhere. Now I could compare all of these views,

1048
01:01:34.920 --> 01:01:38.480
but I got a little chart here. Had AI build

1049
01:01:38.519 --> 01:01:44.519
me a chart, And it gives me Calvinism, Armenianism, semi Pallagianism, Pallagianism,

1050
01:01:44.840 --> 01:01:47.039
the view of grace, the effects on human will, the

1051
01:01:47.159 --> 01:01:50.679
role in salvation. All right, it gives me the key differences.

1052
01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:55.360
Now gives me criticisms of preveniant grace, all right. Now,

1053
01:01:55.800 --> 01:02:00.119
from a Calvinistic perspective, Provenian grace is seen as unbiblical. Well,

1054
01:02:00.400 --> 01:02:03.679
it's an unbiblical compromise that fails to acknowledge the radical

1055
01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:07.159
effects of total depravity. They argue that Scripture presents grace

1056
01:02:07.239 --> 01:02:12.039
as effectual and saving, not merely enabling. Catholics. Proveniate grace,

1057
01:02:13.000 --> 01:02:16.280
has understood in Arminianism, is not far enough from the

1058
01:02:16.360 --> 01:02:21.239
reform view. Catholic theology maintains a more sacramental approach to grace.

1059
01:02:21.599 --> 01:02:25.360
So the Catholics have provenient grace. But when you take

1060
01:02:25.480 --> 01:02:28.559
Jacob Arminius and Wesley, they're like, you don't go far enough.

1061
01:02:28.800 --> 01:02:31.639
You're trying to find this some happy medium, and Catholics

1062
01:02:31.679 --> 01:02:33.039
are like, you just need to just come on the

1063
01:02:33.079 --> 01:02:36.880
way back over to well, Thomas aquinas understand, have proveniate grace,

1064
01:02:36.920 --> 01:02:40.239
which precedes you, guys by a long time, right, so

1065
01:02:41.119 --> 01:02:44.159
because they bring in the sacraments, all right, and then

1066
01:02:44.239 --> 01:02:46.719
of course if you get into Plagianism, well then well

1067
01:02:46.920 --> 01:02:51.280
everything else is there, all right. So now this is

1068
01:02:51.320 --> 01:02:53.000
where I want to end. I know we're already at

1069
01:02:53.039 --> 01:02:55.679
an hour all right, Now, this is where it can

1070
01:02:55.760 --> 01:03:00.880
get confusing. But listen carefully and some aspects of our

1071
01:03:00.920 --> 01:03:09.079
many in theology, preveniant grace functions primarily before salvation, enabling

1072
01:03:09.119 --> 01:03:12.840
a person to respond to the Gospel. However, after salvation,

1073
01:03:13.679 --> 01:03:17.559
the role of grace shifts. They no longer call it

1074
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:21.360
prevenian grace. They would refer to it as sanctifying grace,

1075
01:03:21.920 --> 01:03:26.639
which is believed to help believers grow in holiness. The

1076
01:03:26.800 --> 01:03:31.440
key question, then, is does preveniate grace leave believers in

1077
01:03:31.519 --> 01:03:35.039
a state where they can freely choose to obey all

1078
01:03:35.079 --> 01:03:40.119
of God's law? Does proveniate grace leave you and this

1079
01:03:40.639 --> 01:03:43.840
ability to choose, or does it put you back in

1080
01:03:43.960 --> 01:03:48.079
the disability to choose or do you get a different

1081
01:03:48.159 --> 01:03:53.199
kind of grace? All right? Now, post salvation role of

1082
01:03:53.280 --> 01:03:58.280
grace and Arminianism. Once a person is saved, Provenian grace

1083
01:03:58.400 --> 01:04:01.159
is no longer necessary in the same way because the

1084
01:04:01.239 --> 01:04:05.159
believer has already responded to God God's call at that point,

1085
01:04:05.320 --> 01:04:07.960
grace continues in the believer's life and the form of

1086
01:04:08.039 --> 01:04:11.840
what they would say is three forms of grace. So

1087
01:04:11.960 --> 01:04:14.400
you have prevenied. You say, how confusing this can all get.

1088
01:04:14.519 --> 01:04:17.000
You're gonna need a charge. Someone needs to make a chart.

1089
01:04:17.079 --> 01:04:19.159
All right. So you got grace. So you got this

1090
01:04:19.280 --> 01:04:20.719
kind of grace, and this kind of grace and this

1091
01:04:20.840 --> 01:04:24.239
kind of grace. This is where Christianity can become maddening.

1092
01:04:25.079 --> 01:04:27.280
Some will refer to the first kind of sanctifying grace,

1093
01:04:27.400 --> 01:04:30.199
God's ongoing work and a believer helping them grow in holiness.

1094
01:04:30.599 --> 01:04:32.559
It's okay, no, So God is the one helping me

1095
01:04:32.639 --> 01:04:34.800
grow in holiness? All right? Well, if God is the

1096
01:04:34.840 --> 01:04:37.880
one helping me grow in holiness, you think God could

1097
01:04:37.920 --> 01:04:41.639
help me, I don't know, be holy and if I'm

1098
01:04:41.679 --> 01:04:44.559
not holy, which I'm never going to be holy because

1099
01:04:44.599 --> 01:04:48.440
holy is perfection. If God is helping me but I'm

1100
01:04:48.519 --> 01:04:50.960
not there. Then my lack of being there would be

1101
01:04:51.039 --> 01:04:53.039
because of the lack of God's help, because God didn't

1102
01:04:53.039 --> 01:04:54.679
help me get all the way there. But we don't

1103
01:04:54.760 --> 01:04:56.639
ever want to blame God. So I don't know how

1104
01:04:56.719 --> 01:05:00.280
that's supposed to work. Some would then say the second

1105
01:05:00.320 --> 01:05:03.599
kind is an enabling grace. The ideas that believers now

1106
01:05:03.639 --> 01:05:06.159
have the power to choose obedience, now a lot. This

1107
01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:08.519
is the majority of it. Now, this is where reformed

1108
01:05:08.679 --> 01:05:12.559
and the Armenians will come together and almost agree. Yes,

1109
01:05:13.119 --> 01:05:16.880
now that you're saved, you have the power to choose obedience.

1110
01:05:17.239 --> 01:05:21.079
Oh so I can choose to be perfect? Well no, wait,

1111
01:05:21.400 --> 01:05:22.880
I thought you just said I did. Well, you do,

1112
01:05:23.039 --> 01:05:26.360
but you don't. If I don't have the power to

1113
01:05:26.480 --> 01:05:29.599
choose perfect obedience, then I don't have the power to

1114
01:05:29.679 --> 01:05:32.159
choose obedience. And if you say I only have the

1115
01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:35.360
power to choose some obedience, that makes no sense. Because

1116
01:05:35.360 --> 01:05:37.280
of a violation at one point of the law, I'm

1117
01:05:37.280 --> 01:05:42.199
guilty of all. And if I never reach holiness, which

1118
01:05:42.320 --> 01:05:45.079
is the command, well then I'm in a perpetual state

1119
01:05:45.159 --> 01:05:47.159
of sin. So then how do I ever measure any

1120
01:05:47.199 --> 01:05:50.679
form of obedience? Then the whole thing becomes convoluted again,

1121
01:05:51.199 --> 01:05:57.360
and this miss resistible grace. This is the third kind

1122
01:05:57.400 --> 01:06:01.599
of grace, unlike Calvinism, where grace and sures perseverance and

1123
01:06:01.719 --> 01:06:04.440
I believe. And this is where I disagree with Calvinist.

1124
01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:08.960
I don't believe it. It ensures perseverance and me persevering

1125
01:06:09.400 --> 01:06:13.079
and basically living above sin. It just means that I

1126
01:06:13.239 --> 01:06:16.800
will believe till the end, all right, I will have faith.

1127
01:06:17.039 --> 01:06:19.719
God gave me faith, So if the faith given to

1128
01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:22.079
me by God comes from God, then I will never

1129
01:06:22.199 --> 01:06:24.719
lose said faith because it's a faith. It doesn't mean

1130
01:06:24.719 --> 01:06:27.079
I'm going to persevere over sin. It depends on how

1131
01:06:27.119 --> 01:06:31.719
some people describe perseverance. Armenians believe believers can resist grace

1132
01:06:31.960 --> 01:06:35.159
and potentially fall away apostasy. This is where they believe

1133
01:06:35.199 --> 01:06:38.360
you can lose your salvation. So within the Armenian camp

1134
01:06:38.440 --> 01:06:42.119
it gets even more convoluted. God frees you from total

1135
01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:47.079
depravity only so that you can choose to believe, but

1136
01:06:47.280 --> 01:06:49.239
you can choose not to believe. We don't know really

1137
01:06:49.239 --> 01:06:52.119
where that comes from. There's all this other grace, possibly

1138
01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:56.119
working sanctifying and ably. However, you literally can say no

1139
01:06:56.280 --> 01:06:59.280
to it all and go to hell. So then the

1140
01:06:59.360 --> 01:07:02.960
grace really you're in control of it all. So really

1141
01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:06.719
you get all the credit. You get the credit for believing,

1142
01:07:07.000 --> 01:07:09.000
you get the credit for everything you do in your

1143
01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:11.119
Christian life, and you get the credit if you make

1144
01:07:11.159 --> 01:07:13.960
it to heaven because you kept choosing to believe it's

1145
01:07:14.039 --> 01:07:16.119
all you and just say no, it's God. No, no, no,

1146
01:07:16.239 --> 01:07:19.480
it's you. God only makes it able. You do all

1147
01:07:19.559 --> 01:07:26.599
the choosing. So this raises the question does this mean

1148
01:07:26.639 --> 01:07:29.679
believers can now obey all of God's law? Now? I

1149
01:07:29.719 --> 01:07:33.760
asked Ai this. Ai said, well, if Prevenian grace enables

1150
01:07:33.920 --> 01:07:38.679
choice pre salvation, then in our many in theology, post

1151
01:07:38.960 --> 01:07:42.320
salvation grace should give believers the ability to obey all

1152
01:07:42.360 --> 01:07:45.880
of God's law, at least in theory. So it says

1153
01:07:45.960 --> 01:07:49.480
like prevenia grace primarily is before but typically within these

1154
01:07:49.639 --> 01:07:52.159
camps that hold the Provenian grace. I'm not gonna say

1155
01:07:52.239 --> 01:07:54.840
every single person because they may want to have the

1156
01:07:55.159 --> 01:07:59.840
you know, the switch is flipped. Oh now you have.

1157
01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:02.719
Now you have freedom believe or don't believe. Oh now

1158
01:08:03.079 --> 01:08:05.159
you believed. Now the switch is turned off. Now you've

1159
01:08:05.239 --> 01:08:08.519
lost the ability. You can try to play that game.

1160
01:08:08.880 --> 01:08:11.000
But in most of them they're going to continue on

1161
01:08:11.159 --> 01:08:13.320
with some kind of ability. Well, then this raises some

1162
01:08:13.440 --> 01:08:17.039
key problems, right, because if in theory you have the

1163
01:08:17.119 --> 01:08:19.439
ability to obey all of God's law, here's some of

1164
01:08:19.479 --> 01:08:21.640
the problems. Hey, this is not me, this is AI

1165
01:08:21.760 --> 01:08:25.840
pointing out these problems. Number one, if grace inables but

1166
01:08:25.960 --> 01:08:30.199
does not ensure obedience. If grace enables but does not

1167
01:08:30.520 --> 01:08:34.880
ensure obedience, why does sin persist? If every believer has

1168
01:08:34.920 --> 01:08:38.640
the ability to choose obedience freely, then some should, in theory,

1169
01:08:38.760 --> 01:08:44.760
achieve near perfect obedience, but no one does. This raises

1170
01:08:44.840 --> 01:08:49.680
the question, if grace enables obedience, is failure to obey

1171
01:08:49.800 --> 01:08:53.359
due to a lack of grace or to human resistance?

1172
01:08:54.119 --> 01:08:56.840
And if it's coming from human resistance, where does the

1173
01:08:56.920 --> 01:09:02.039
human resistance come from? Now that last part I added,

1174
01:09:02.119 --> 01:09:04.760
that wasn't AI? A lot of times when I'm using

1175
01:09:04.760 --> 01:09:06.199
the words of AI, I try to tell you when

1176
01:09:06.239 --> 01:09:07.920
I am, But most of the time it's a mixture

1177
01:09:07.960 --> 01:09:10.680
of mine and theirs. But I try to, you know,

1178
01:09:11.079 --> 01:09:14.159
do I try to draw a distinction? AI then ask

1179
01:09:14.279 --> 01:09:17.079
a second question, does this not lead to a semi

1180
01:09:17.159 --> 01:09:22.279
Pallagian framework? If post salvation grace simply makes obedience possible

1181
01:09:22.560 --> 01:09:25.640
but does not guarantee it. Then it applies that obedience

1182
01:09:25.720 --> 01:09:33.199
ultimately depends on human effort. Oh, no way, This makes

1183
01:09:33.239 --> 01:09:36.840
grace sound more like assistance rather than something that truly transforms.

1184
01:09:38.279 --> 01:09:41.840
This would be a more Pelagian concept. How does this

1185
01:09:41.920 --> 01:09:45.359
fit in with total depravity? Are minions affirm that sin

1186
01:09:45.479 --> 01:09:48.560
still affects believers? But if prevenient grace restores free will

1187
01:09:48.640 --> 01:09:52.000
before salvation, does this mean believers post salvation are no

1188
01:09:52.119 --> 01:09:55.359
longer depraved in any significant way. If believers can now

1189
01:09:55.439 --> 01:09:59.159
fully obey, then sanctification becomes a matter of willpower rather

1190
01:09:59.239 --> 01:10:06.960
than a reliance God's grace. So then Ai said basically said,

1191
01:10:07.000 --> 01:10:08.720
do you want a chart? And it gives me a chart,

1192
01:10:09.079 --> 01:10:13.199
it gives me Calvinism or Minianism, Wesleyanism, which is Christian

1193
01:10:13.239 --> 01:10:17.560
perfectionism semi Pelagianism, and it talks about so in Calvinism,

1194
01:10:18.159 --> 01:10:21.520
can a believer fully obey? No? Believers remain in a

1195
01:10:21.560 --> 01:10:26.600
struggle with sin our Minianism or Provenean grace. Theoretically a

1196
01:10:26.680 --> 01:10:30.039
believer can fully obey, but in reality believers still sin.

1197
01:10:30.880 --> 01:10:34.399
Within the Wesleyan view, can a believer fully obey will

1198
01:10:34.479 --> 01:10:37.840
some claim to achieve perfect love, but not absolute perfection.

1199
01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:43.159
And in semi pelagianism and principle, yes a believer can

1200
01:10:43.199 --> 01:10:46.159
fully obey, but failure is due to human weakness. So

1201
01:10:46.279 --> 01:10:49.760
guess what all these people who even say you're free,

1202
01:10:49.880 --> 01:10:52.640
you're kind of free, you're enabled, you're not enabled, they

1203
01:10:52.800 --> 01:10:55.279
all ultimately will back off and say, well, nobody can

1204
01:10:55.359 --> 01:10:57.960
be perfect. Well, then you're not free, and then clearly

1205
01:10:58.119 --> 01:11:02.039
you're not enabled. And if you're then it becomes confusing.

1206
01:11:03.199 --> 01:11:05.880
So then I asked Ai, so what's the problem here?

1207
01:11:06.039 --> 01:11:10.039
Here's what Ai said. The big problem is the reality

1208
01:11:10.079 --> 01:11:13.720
of sin. If grace makes obedience fully possible, then some

1209
01:11:13.880 --> 01:11:16.640
believers should be able to fully obey, yet no one does.

1210
01:11:17.520 --> 01:11:19.199
Failure to obey would seem to be due to a

1211
01:11:19.239 --> 01:11:22.479
personal choice, yet even the most devoted believers still struggle.

1212
01:11:23.479 --> 01:11:27.119
It creates a works based sanctification. I think it creates

1213
01:11:27.159 --> 01:11:31.159
a works based everything. If the only thing stopping obedience

1214
01:11:31.279 --> 01:11:34.600
is simply your will power, then grace is not even necessary.

1215
01:11:36.439 --> 01:11:39.239
If it's just you who chooses to be saved, then

1216
01:11:39.319 --> 01:11:42.800
it's just you who can choose not to sin, unless

1217
01:11:42.840 --> 01:11:45.399
you say preveniant, Grace is turned off the minute you believe,

1218
01:11:45.600 --> 01:11:47.720
and then now you go back to not having free will.

1219
01:11:49.039 --> 01:11:50.760
So do you have free will or do you not

1220
01:11:50.880 --> 01:11:53.199
have free will? If you have free will, then look,

1221
01:11:53.279 --> 01:11:55.800
our argument is not about prevenient grace. Our argument is

1222
01:11:55.840 --> 01:11:58.920
not about reform theology. It's simple. If you have free will,

1223
01:11:59.560 --> 01:12:04.800
don't are argue with me. Go be perfect and then

1224
01:12:04.880 --> 01:12:08.000
write a book about how perfect you are. Now you

1225
01:12:08.079 --> 01:12:09.800
want to make You may want to make sure you

1226
01:12:09.920 --> 01:12:14.119
move away from everyone. You may want to declare to everyone, Hey, everyone,

1227
01:12:14.479 --> 01:12:18.159
today I have become perfect. I'm leaving. Then go go

1228
01:12:18.399 --> 01:12:21.079
move somewhere into a mountain where no one can find you.

1229
01:12:21.399 --> 01:12:24.119
No one can, no one has your Internet history, no

1230
01:12:24.199 --> 01:12:26.479
one knows your thought life. You can, and then you

1231
01:12:26.560 --> 01:12:28.560
can write a book telling everyone how perfect you are,

1232
01:12:28.720 --> 01:12:30.760
because then you'll have a very good chance of not

1233
01:12:30.880 --> 01:12:33.840
being found out. But if you're anywhere near people, they

1234
01:12:33.920 --> 01:12:36.319
know you're not perfect. They know you don't love your enemy,

1235
01:12:36.479 --> 01:12:39.760
they know you'd worry, complain, have anxiety, you get angry,

1236
01:12:39.920 --> 01:12:43.399
you frustrated, you lie, you deceee. They know you. So

1237
01:12:43.760 --> 01:12:46.439
if you're gonna claim free will, then don't argue with

1238
01:12:46.520 --> 01:12:48.039
me about free will. And I'm not saying this to

1239
01:12:48.119 --> 01:12:50.159
the email or I'm just saying this in general when

1240
01:12:50.199 --> 01:12:52.279
people argue about free will, I'm like, no, no, stop,

1241
01:12:52.479 --> 01:12:55.720
let's not get into all of this prevented it, irresistible

1242
01:12:55.880 --> 01:12:58.199
this this, No, no, no, it's not even about that.

1243
01:12:58.720 --> 01:13:04.439
The minute we mention free will, then just go be perfect,

1244
01:13:05.960 --> 01:13:09.239
and if you can't, that means there's something holding you back.

1245
01:13:09.520 --> 01:13:12.159
I will say this to the reform people who say, oh,

1246
01:13:12.359 --> 01:13:14.720
now that we're are saved, we are given the power

1247
01:13:14.800 --> 01:13:18.079
of God and we can obey his law. Okay, okay,

1248
01:13:18.520 --> 01:13:21.479
let's not argue. Just go do it. But the minute

1249
01:13:21.520 --> 01:13:25.600
you say, well I can't get the perfect hmm, well

1250
01:13:25.640 --> 01:13:28.640
then you're not free. And if he can't get the perfect,

1251
01:13:29.039 --> 01:13:31.840
then obviously there's something wrong with the power that's been

1252
01:13:31.880 --> 01:13:35.880
given to you. There's a limit on the power. They

1253
01:13:35.960 --> 01:13:38.079
put a governor like on the car keeping you from

1254
01:13:38.119 --> 01:13:41.880
being able to go too fast. What God's giving you power,

1255
01:13:41.960 --> 01:13:43.680
but he's limited his power that you only get the

1256
01:13:43.760 --> 01:13:46.359
fifty percent obedience or sixty percent obedience. And how do

1257
01:13:46.439 --> 01:13:49.079
you define obedience when the Bible says if you break

1258
01:13:49.159 --> 01:13:50.960
one point of the law, you're guilty of all of it.

1259
01:13:51.239 --> 01:13:53.439
And if the standard is be holy as God is

1260
01:13:53.520 --> 01:13:56.800
holy every second of every day. That you're not perfectly holy,

1261
01:13:57.000 --> 01:13:58.840
you're in a perpetual state of sin. So if you're

1262
01:13:58.840 --> 01:14:00.720
in a perpetual state of sin, how do you even

1263
01:14:00.800 --> 01:14:03.239
define that you have any ability to do anything other

1264
01:14:03.359 --> 01:14:10.760
than sin? Now, I do understand why you want Provenian grace.

1265
01:14:11.800 --> 01:14:14.479
You want Provenian grace because you're trying to maintain free

1266
01:14:14.520 --> 01:14:19.840
will because the idea of no free will scares everyone

1267
01:14:19.920 --> 01:14:23.640
to death. And I understand that. But the minute you

1268
01:14:23.720 --> 01:14:29.479
say free will, if proveniant grace is what opens free

1269
01:14:29.560 --> 01:14:31.920
will or turns it on, does it only turn it

1270
01:14:32.000 --> 01:14:33.720
on for a few minutes and then turns it off?

1271
01:14:33.960 --> 01:14:36.439
And even if it turns it on, why does some resist?

1272
01:14:37.600 --> 01:14:40.680
What is it inside people that doesn't want salvation? Who

1273
01:14:40.760 --> 01:14:43.119
in their right mind will say I want hell, I

1274
01:14:43.239 --> 01:14:45.800
want my sin, I don't want God, I want to

1275
01:14:45.880 --> 01:14:48.279
do my own thing. That's got to be something inside

1276
01:14:48.359 --> 01:14:52.119
of us. Well, then if that is preventing someone from believing,

1277
01:14:54.359 --> 01:14:57.720
then that means their will is impacted by sin, So

1278
01:14:57.840 --> 01:15:01.479
then they're not freely free. You would have to say no,

1279
01:15:01.880 --> 01:15:04.239
the sin no longer impacts them, They no longer have

1280
01:15:04.359 --> 01:15:06.640
a desire to sin. They no longer had to desire

1281
01:15:06.720 --> 01:15:09.439
anything because Previnia Grace took it all away. They now,

1282
01:15:09.880 --> 01:15:13.319
and so it's all external forces. Well, then why does

1283
01:15:13.399 --> 01:15:17.079
God put some people in horrible external situations and some

1284
01:15:17.159 --> 01:15:20.920
people in very good external situations? Right? Why does some

1285
01:15:21.000 --> 01:15:24.279
people put raised in a nice little home? There's there's

1286
01:15:24.560 --> 01:15:28.560
you know, mister Rogers and missus Rogers. Hey son, come here.

1287
01:15:29.079 --> 01:15:32.239
We've got you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with

1288
01:15:32.319 --> 01:15:34.640
the crust cut off. Sit down, and here's a glass

1289
01:15:34.760 --> 01:15:37.960
of milk. Mommy and Daddy loves you. We're gonna have

1290
01:15:38.039 --> 01:15:40.479
devotionals now, and then we're gonna go to church, and

1291
01:15:40.560 --> 01:15:42.560
then we're gonna get on the boat and go fishing.

1292
01:15:44.960 --> 01:15:46.840
And then the other kid comes home. What are you

1293
01:15:46.920 --> 01:15:49.239
doing home? I don't want you here, I hate you.

1294
01:15:49.439 --> 01:15:51.600
I wish you were never born. Puts you in the face,

1295
01:15:51.760 --> 01:15:54.119
burn you with a cigarette, whip you with an electric cord,

1296
01:15:54.239 --> 01:15:55.920
tie you up in the closet, bitch you with a

1297
01:15:55.960 --> 01:15:58.640
baseball bat and say I wish you were dead, or

1298
01:15:58.920 --> 01:16:01.039
call you into the room, take a gun, stick it

1299
01:16:01.079 --> 01:16:03.640
to their head and say I'm gonna kill myself because

1300
01:16:03.680 --> 01:16:09.119
of you. Oh wow. Oh, and none of those stories

1301
01:16:09.159 --> 01:16:10.920
I just said about how bad things are, Trust me,

1302
01:16:11.079 --> 01:16:18.600
those aren't made up stories. Well wait, so if it's

1303
01:16:18.640 --> 01:16:21.319
the external situations that keep people from believing, then why

1304
01:16:21.359 --> 01:16:24.680
does God put people and some people in very bad circumstances?

1305
01:16:24.800 --> 01:16:28.159
Or maybe God's not in control. See, there's no end

1306
01:16:28.239 --> 01:16:32.159
to these questions. Even if you free people from the

1307
01:16:32.279 --> 01:16:35.600
internal part, the external part's gonna have massive impact on

1308
01:16:35.640 --> 01:16:41.880
whether someone may believe or not believe. So then are

1309
01:16:41.920 --> 01:16:44.800
they truly free if you've got such external forces working

1310
01:16:44.920 --> 01:16:50.800
against your supposed freedom? What is freedom anyway? Like? What

1311
01:16:50.880 --> 01:16:53.199
does that even mean? To be free? With me? You're

1312
01:16:53.239 --> 01:17:02.920
free from all external and internal forces. Now again, I'm

1313
01:17:03.319 --> 01:17:05.439
none of this is about the individual who wrote. It's

1314
01:17:05.680 --> 01:17:07.920
not about make it very people were gonna go, oh,

1315
01:17:08.039 --> 01:17:09.920
he was mean. I'm not being mean to the individual.

1316
01:17:10.399 --> 01:17:12.239
I don't even know what the individual believes about all

1317
01:17:12.279 --> 01:17:15.199
of these issues. I'm saying. When you bring up Prevenian grace,

1318
01:17:15.359 --> 01:17:19.880
when you bring up anything, when you bring up faith, grace, repentance, baptism,

1319
01:17:20.079 --> 01:17:24.359
Lord's Supper, every theological issue there, it's a ball of yarn.

1320
01:17:24.439 --> 01:17:26.960
I'm just trying to pull off each different strand of

1321
01:17:27.119 --> 01:17:30.119
yarn in that ball of yarn that's all grouped together,

1322
01:17:30.239 --> 01:17:32.279
and say, look at this piece, what about this piece?

1323
01:17:32.399 --> 01:17:35.119
What about this? What about this? What? I'm just causing

1324
01:17:35.159 --> 01:17:37.960
you to question at all, because that's what I try

1325
01:17:38.039 --> 01:17:40.159
to do. You say, well, what's the easy answer. I

1326
01:17:40.239 --> 01:17:45.800
don't have an easy answer. The one thing I do know,

1327
01:17:47.039 --> 01:17:50.239
and I will be dogmatic about this. We are depraved

1328
01:17:50.319 --> 01:17:55.239
sinners before salvation. We are depraved sinners and salvation because

1329
01:17:55.319 --> 01:17:58.840
nobody can be perfect, so the sinful nature is still there. Therefore,

1330
01:17:58.880 --> 01:18:01.399
the will is not free because if the will was free,

1331
01:18:03.399 --> 01:18:06.119
you would choose to be perfect. And if you don't

1332
01:18:06.199 --> 01:18:08.720
choose to be perfect, there's something keeping you from choosing

1333
01:18:08.800 --> 01:18:11.439
to be perfect. Whatever keeps you from perfection is still

1334
01:18:11.520 --> 01:18:14.439
in charge and still in power. Oh that would be

1335
01:18:14.760 --> 01:18:17.800
I don't know sin. So then how am I saved?

1336
01:18:18.039 --> 01:18:23.880
Purely by grace through faith, not apart apart from works,

1337
01:18:24.000 --> 01:18:26.640
apart from myself. I get no credit because I play

1338
01:18:26.760 --> 01:18:29.960
no part of my salvation. God, by his grace has

1339
01:18:30.079 --> 01:18:33.119
to grant me, the faith, has to grant me the repentance,

1340
01:18:33.239 --> 01:18:35.880
and he saves me not based on anything I could do,

1341
01:18:36.039 --> 01:18:38.520
would do, should do and the proof of my salvation

1342
01:18:38.680 --> 01:18:41.920
is not anything I will do. Everything is based on

1343
01:18:42.079 --> 01:18:47.239
what Christ did by an imputed righteousness. Nothing is infused,

1344
01:18:47.840 --> 01:18:53.800
nothing like that occurs. Now I will be dogmatic about

1345
01:18:53.840 --> 01:18:59.920
that because life proves that because of art ongoing sin.

1346
01:19:00.119 --> 01:19:03.039
Now maybe maybe I can. If you've figured out perfection,

1347
01:19:03.239 --> 01:19:05.880
then by man, write a book. Don't even argue with me.

1348
01:19:06.239 --> 01:19:11.520
Write the book. Go go start a conference how to

1349
01:19:11.640 --> 01:19:15.199
be perfect in seven steps. I proved it. I proved

1350
01:19:15.199 --> 01:19:17.439
that the will is completely free. Go write a book,

1351
01:19:17.479 --> 01:19:20.840
Go show everyone. But I'm telling you be careful because

1352
01:19:20.880 --> 01:19:24.079
sooner or later your imperfection's going to be seen. Sooner

1353
01:19:24.239 --> 01:19:26.640
or later, it's going to be seen. And when then

1354
01:19:26.640 --> 01:19:29.880
you're going to be exposed as a fraud. Not unless

1355
01:19:30.000 --> 01:19:32.199
you can convince. I mean, you know, Trump convinces everyone

1356
01:19:32.279 --> 01:19:34.520
is perfect. I'm making a joke. Don't want to tick

1357
01:19:34.560 --> 01:19:41.760
off all the Trump supporters. All right, seventy nine minutes.

1358
01:19:42.640 --> 01:19:45.479
So when sent me an email, you got seventy nine minutes.

1359
01:19:46.039 --> 01:19:48.319
And if you listen to my last broadcast, guess what

1360
01:19:49.399 --> 01:19:54.760
that didn't cost you one cent where in church? Seventy

1361
01:19:54.840 --> 01:19:59.720
nine minutes. That'd be like what thousand dollars for teaching hour,

1362
01:20:00.000 --> 01:20:03.920
and that why we came up with five hundred dollars

1363
01:20:04.000 --> 01:20:06.760
teaching hour. I should be charging for the I'm joking.

1364
01:20:06.800 --> 01:20:08.800
I'm joking, all right, thank you, I hope I went

1365
01:20:08.840 --> 01:20:13.880
through that quickly. Again to everyone I offended, I'm not trying.

1366
01:20:14.199 --> 01:20:18.239
It's just I don't care about your theological team. Right, So,

1367
01:20:18.359 --> 01:20:20.279
if you're preveniant Grace, I ticked you off. If you're

1368
01:20:20.319 --> 01:20:23.479
not preveniant Grace, I probably ticked you off. I ticked

1369
01:20:23.479 --> 01:20:25.880
off the Armenians, I ticked off the Calvinists, I ticked

1370
01:20:25.880 --> 01:20:30.840
off the Pallagians. I ticked off everyone. And the guiding

1371
01:20:30.960 --> 01:20:34.520
part and all of that, really, if you really be honest,

1372
01:20:34.560 --> 01:20:37.199
the guiding part and all of that is just the

1373
01:20:37.319 --> 01:20:41.279
reality of sin and the reality that nobody can be perfect.

1374
01:20:42.279 --> 01:20:45.239
Whatever theological system I come up with, I have to

1375
01:20:45.359 --> 01:20:51.800
acknowledge nobody can be perfect. So what do I do

1376
01:20:51.920 --> 01:20:55.960
with that? Well, that fits in with total depravity, and

1377
01:20:56.079 --> 01:20:59.720
that clearly demonstrates logically that the will is not free

1378
01:21:02.760 --> 01:21:09.840
and not everyone believes. So either you say, well, not

1379
01:21:09.880 --> 01:21:11.840
everyone believes because they choose not to believe. But what's

1380
01:21:11.880 --> 01:21:14.319
causing them choose not to believe. If it's sin, well

1381
01:21:14.359 --> 01:21:16.920
then they're not free. You see, that's where it gets confusing. Now,

1382
01:21:16.960 --> 01:21:19.640
at least in Calvinism, it may not be easy to accept,

1383
01:21:19.680 --> 01:21:21.439
but at least it says, well, the reason these people

1384
01:21:21.520 --> 01:21:23.520
believe is because God granted them faith, and God didn't

1385
01:21:23.520 --> 01:21:25.079
grant them faith. You say, well, that's not fair and

1386
01:21:25.119 --> 01:21:27.600
that's not right. I can understand that argument. I'm not

1387
01:21:27.640 --> 01:21:30.319
saying that's easy either. Everyone has to explain why some

1388
01:21:30.439 --> 01:21:32.720
believe in some don't believe. Everyone's got to have an

1389
01:21:32.760 --> 01:21:40.000
answer for it. But to say someone is free, then

1390
01:21:40.039 --> 01:21:42.720
that means then they don't have a depraved nature. So

1391
01:21:42.800 --> 01:21:44.920
then you've got to explain what's motivating them. Not so

1392
01:21:45.039 --> 01:21:48.119
then it's either internal or external factors. Well, if it's

1393
01:21:48.159 --> 01:21:50.840
external factors, in it convenient how that plays out that

1394
01:21:51.000 --> 01:21:54.239
some people have every external factor working for them and

1395
01:21:54.359 --> 01:21:57.560
some have every external factor working against them. So that's

1396
01:21:57.640 --> 01:22:00.720
not fair, even in a practical way. So it all

1397
01:22:00.840 --> 01:22:03.760
becomes convoluted. All right, I'll stop right there. That's probably

1398
01:22:03.800 --> 01:22:06.439
gonna just I'm probably gonna lose about one thousand listeners.

1399
01:22:06.920 --> 01:22:11.039
You watch, I guarantee you after this episode you watch.

1400
01:22:11.439 --> 01:22:16.279
My numbers are going to go down, down, down, down

1401
01:22:16.840 --> 01:22:21.159
down for probably the rest of February. You watch, there's

1402
01:22:21.159 --> 01:22:24.359
gonna be a dramatic decrease. Probably will even see less

1403
01:22:24.399 --> 01:22:27.079
people even supporting because you can't you can't win. When

1404
01:22:27.079 --> 01:22:30.880
you talk about theology, you're going to offend someone. Whatever

1405
01:22:31.079 --> 01:22:35.039
theological sides you take, you're gonna tick off someone. That's

1406
01:22:35.279 --> 01:22:38.199
that's one of the hardest things about doing a theology podcast.

1407
01:22:39.079 --> 01:22:43.000
Whatever subject I talk about, someone is going to disagree.

1408
01:22:43.359 --> 01:22:47.800
I'm just good at making everyone disagree. So thanks for listening. Everyone,

1409
01:22:47.880 --> 01:22:50.800
have a great day. Remember, put it on the refrigerator.

1410
01:22:50.880 --> 01:22:55.640
What are we gonna call it? Pervinia great? No prevenant, Grace,

1411
01:22:55.920 --> 01:22:58.000
put it on the referra. I'm not joking. Put it

1412
01:22:58.079 --> 01:23:02.720
on the refrigerator. How a good family discussion, Guys, today's

1413
01:23:02.800 --> 01:23:07.600
topic prevene it, Grace. Go And when they say, they're

1414
01:23:07.600 --> 01:23:09.880
going to look at you and say, stop listening to

1415
01:23:10.039 --> 01:23:14.600
that stupid podcast. It's ruining my life. And I'm like,

1416
01:23:14.680 --> 01:23:17.439
I know, I from what I can tell, it's ruining

1417
01:23:17.520 --> 01:23:19.159
the life of the guy who does it. So yeah,

1418
01:23:19.239 --> 01:23:20.880
so we're on the stand, so let's talk about it

1419
01:23:20.960 --> 01:23:23.359
all right. Thanks everyone, have a great day. God, bless,