Prevenient Grace

0:02 Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is the Theology Central podcast making Theology Central. I want you to take just a few minutes, and I want you to think back a long, long time ago when you first became a Christian. For some of you, that was a long time ago. It's like ancient history. Not to you know, criticize or make fun of your age, but it was a long time ago ago. For some of you. You were raised in Christianity. You don't ever really know anything different others of you. Maybe it was only ten years ago, fifteen years ago. You can still remember it to some level. But think back to the early stages of your Christian life. Do you remember. Do you remember it?

0:53 Maybe it was exciting. Maybe you have great memories from that time. Remember how easy it felt and how simple it and understanding things. And every time you opened your Bible you were like excited because it was something new, it was something interesting, and and you would listen to a sermon or you would read something in a Christian book and you just like, oh, this is the way it is right. Everything seemed clear. You felt like you had found the answers right. You found like everyone else is stumbling around in the dark. But I have found the answers. I now see the light. It's I understand. I have clarity. And you would open your Bible and you would read something like Ephesians chapter two, verse eight.

1:34 For by grace are ye saved through faith? And that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast, and you're like, oh, I'm saved by grace through faith. Oh, this is awesome. And then maybe maybe I don't know how long it took. Someone was like, well, wait a minute, so what is the gift. Is the gift the grace or is the gift the faith or is the gift both grace and faith? And you were like, well, uh, I don't know, maybe it's both. Oh, you believe faith is a gift, so you can't believe on your own. God has to give you faith? Well does he give faith to everyone? Well? I mean uh? And all of a sudden you started realizing what are you talking about? And then you start realizing not everyone agrees on how to interpret Ephesians two eight, and you're like, well, that's not good. And so then you start realizing people don't agree on grace, So disgrace does this, Does Grace do this? Disgrace does that? And you start realizing, wait a minute, maybe this is more complicated.

2:36 And then the longer you become a Christian, you realize nobody agrees on grace, nobody agrees on faith, nobody agrees on repentance, no one agrees on baptism, no one agrees on the Lord's Supper, no one agrees on this, no one agrees on that. And then you start realizing nobody agrees on anything. Now, maybe what you start doing is you're like, but, but, but but my group, we've got the truth. This just shows that false teaching a spread everywhere and all of those people are wrong and we are right. Maybe you took that approach, but the bottom line is this, at some point you had to turn around and remember, man, I have moved so far away from those simple days of being a Christian where it was exciting and you didn't realize that there was disagreements about everything, and there was just like you're learning, you're believing, you're excited, you believe in God, you believe in Jesus.

3:32 The Bible is the word of God, and it's just there was a simplicity to it. There was almost a beauty in its simplicity, and if you were paying any attention, it's only become more complicated and more complicated and more complicated, and maybe at that point it starts becoming less fun, less beautiful, very frustrating, very discouraging, and very depressing. Has anyone had a similar experience? Or am I just talking and You're like, I don't know what he's talking about. I've never experienced anything like this. Well, if you've never experienced anything like it, congratulations, I think, for at least for me, that's my Christian life started so simple. It was so exciting. It was like, oh, I'm learning this, I'm learning, and then it didn't take long to start realizing, wait a minute, you disagree, you disagree, They disagree, and they disagree and they disagree, and so then it was like, Okay, they're all wrong and I'm right. But then over time it's become like I don't I don't even know how I process this. Now I'm going to talk. The reason I'm talking about all of that is because we're about to discuss well, one word, grace, and we're gonna discover I know this is shocking. Not everyone agrees even on the subject of grace for crying out loud. We don't even agree within Christianity on the subject of race. And

5:02 we're going to talk about that right after I say good morning everyone. It is Wednesday, February the nineteenth, twenty twenty five. It is currently eleven forty nine am Central time, and I'm coming to you live from the Theology Central Studio located right here in Abilene, Texas. Now, if you will look, one of the past episodes I just did was on does Grace in Abel? Does Grace in Abel? Because I was listening to a chapel service. Now, I didn't see anybody at chapel service today. Where were all of you? Did anyone go to chapel service today? Where? Now, to be fair, I wasn't there either, Okay, I was distracted.

5:43 I didn't get anywhere near chapel service. It's not my fault. Blame the things that distracted me. It's not my fault. I did not make it to chapel service today, Okay, I'm sorry I did not. Yeah, I think it was yesterday. It may have been yesterday that I snuck out. I think it was yesterday that I snuck out of Chapel service. All the days together, I don't remember anything anymore, Okay, but it was the other day that I snuck out of Chapel's service to talk to you about Grace because we were hearing in Chapel Service that grace enables. See, when you get the grace of God, it enables you to well, then you just start listing all the things that enables you to do. It enables you to obey, it enables you to fulfill the law of God. It enables you. And I'm like, ah, if it enables us, well, then that just raises all those questions. You can go back to listen to that entire episode, right, But we started talking about Grace, and immediately we begin to realize, guess what. Some people believe this about Grace. Others believe this about Grace. There is not agreement. Right, So I thought I was done with the episode. I moved on until nine fourteen a m. This morning, and someone emailed me because I didn't mention a certain view of Grace.

7:01 And so now, well, ladies and gentlemen, we've got to talk about another view of Grace. Look all the other different views of Grace those. We've got even another one that we did not talk about, And no, I did not talk about it. I probably should have, but at that point I was just trying to contrast between two basic understandings. So this is what we're going to be talking about. Have you ever heard of this word? Have you ever? Have you ever been in church and heard someone mention this word? Are you ready? Preveniant? Preveniant, preveniant, preveniant, preveniant grace, preveniant grace. Have you ever heard that word? Preveniant, preveniant?

7:45 I should say it. Preveniant is how I should say it. Okay, For some reason, I always want to spell it p e R, But it's p r E preveniant grace. I don't know why I want to say pe r provenyan. It's proveniant grace. Right. If I look at the word, it makes sense, right, preveniant grace, provenian grace. Have you ever heard of that term? Again? If I slip in and say it p e r, that's just that's just my it's my mistake. I know it's provenian grace. I know it's not preveniant, it's preveniant. Okay, I don't know why I want to say it the other way. So if I do that, that's on me. That's on me. It's just that's just me. For some weird reason. If if I was on a spelling test, I would not spell it p r E. That would just be on that on me, it's proveniant grace. So if I said it incorrectly, I apologize. Proveniant grace. P r E v E n I E n T preveniant grace. Write that phrase down, prevenian grace. Put it on the refrigerator, and when anyone gets ready to get something, I'll go, hey, guys, guys, look at the refrigerator and they're like, what's that proveniate grace?

8:51 And they'll say it correctly. They'll say, I know how to say it. I heard that guy you were listening to who doesn't. Okay, So they're going to say it correctly. And then you can ask everyone what is prevenance grace, And if they cannot answer what provenian grace is, tell them they cannot get anything out of the refrigerator. That has to be the rule in your home today. If they cannot define provenian grace, they cannot get anything out of the refrigerator. Put it on the microwave. Anywhere there's food and the cabinets and they have to define it and then they'll probably tell you this is the dumbest game I've ever heard in my life. Stop listening to that stupid podcast. Right, But we need to understand proveniant grace. Now, on one hand, I'm excited to discuss proveniant grace. On the other hand, it falls into my frustration with Christianity in general, Like, for crying out loud, is there anything we can agree on? Anything? Do you think there's anything we could agree on? Literally? Anything? Can we not even agree on this thing called grace? Grace is this thing we should be celebrating, We should love it, it should be amazing, But we don't agree. We don't agree on Faith's faith something you can do is faith something that is given? Is it given to everyone? And then we get into predestination, we get into Calvinism, we get into Augustinianism, plage.

10:06 Oh wait, we're gonna get into all of those same issues when we talk about Prevenian grace. But we're gonna be talking about it. So at first I'm going to go to the email. So first, to the original emailer, thank you for emailing. I'm gonna do my very best to be fair and accurate just for full transparency. I obviously don't hold to Prevenian grace. I obviously don't hold to that theologically, right, I don't. So if I did, then I would be a part of a group that would hold to that. I would be I would be far more Armenian in my in my belief system, right, or i'd be Catholic okay in many cases. Okay, And we can get into Thomas Aquinas and his understanding of Prevenian grace, right, but we'll go we'll go through the history and everything there. So obviously I don't hold to that, so I may come across very critical. But let me make this very clear, most likely before this EP episode is over, I'm gonna tick off the reform people. I'm gonna tick off the non reform people. I'm gonna tick off everyone in between, because, as I've said it before, I don't care about philological loyalty. I don't care. Theology should not determine what I believe. Hopefully scripture determines my theology, so I don't. I'm not loyal to a team. So in some cases people say, oh, well, you're a reform some people you're not reformed enough, and some people like you're this, you're and everybody wants to always label me and put me in a little box. And that's a

11:37 problem because I don't want to fit into your I don't have to wear your team's jersey. So to the person who sit the email, they're probably not gonna like what I have to say. To the people who strongly disagree with his email, they're probably gonna disagree with me. I always find myself in the minority of the minority of the minority. But there's got to be at least one podcast that's not beholden to everyone's little philological systems, right, I think there has to be a voice for that. So here is the subject line, subject thoughts on your recent podcast, missing Piece, Preveniant Grace. So they're going to share their thoughts on my recent podcast, and they're going to talk about the missing piece, and the missing piece is preveniant Grace, and they they're they're right. If I was now, if the goal there was to do an extensive look at Grace, then you're absolutely right. You cannot ignore proveniant Grace. So let's let's let's let's just do this let's just make this very clear. The emailer is right.

12:40 If I if the goal of that episode was to do a detailed view of grace, right, a detailed study of grace. If you leave out proveniant grace, then I mean you're leaving out a significant theological understanding within church history. Preveniant grace. The concepts have been around to and some and some capacity in some shape or form. It's been around throughout church history to some level. Now when it really takes shape, you can say, well, that's a little late to show up to the party. But remember, I don't like going with that argument. Well, which was earliest, which was first? Earliest and first does not necessarily mean correct. Okay, the issue is what what do we believe the Bible leads us to? And in some cases some of these issues really come down to more logical questions, but we'll get into that hopefully soon. So they're right, and that conversation we did not mention prevenant grace. If you were if you're a part of a church and they're discussing grace, faith, or any of these issues, then they have to talk about all the various different understandings. So we're going to do this so the person says, HI, begins with I hope this message finds you well. No, it finds me in the middle of a winter apocalypse here in West Texas.

13:58 So but I won't grap about the Okay, I hope this message finds you well. I just finished listening to your latest podcast, and as always, I truly appreciate your insightful exploration on theological concepts. All right, So I appreciate that they start nice. I like when people start nice, right, I love that, right, That's always that always makes me feel good because whenever I see an email, I'm like, oh no, oh, no, oh no, because there's a good chance I'm gonna get an email like you are an idiot burn in hell. Okay, all right, maybe die die die die. I'm like, okay, all right, I get it. You don't like me, Okay, move on. I think in twenty twenty five, twenty twenty four, many of the people who hate me have moved on. I don't get a lot of that anymore, which is so good because there's so many different things to choose from. People can just move on. They don't really have to spend their time complaining.

14:48 But it's always nice to get an encouraging one. All right, so that's good, says I truly appreciated your I truly appreciated your insightful exploration of theological concepts, specifically your discussion on imputed and infused righteousness. I love how you broke down the complexities of each view, making it accessible and thought provoking. Whoa, Okay, we're gonna stop right there, ladies and gentlemen. Someone has said that I am thought provoking. That's the end. I retire, Thank you, good night. That's the end of the Theology Central podcast. I have reached thought provoking level. I'm done. That's all I've ever wanted to do was be thought provoking. So I've accomplished that. Okay, good so so far, I'm feeling good about mysel I'm like, wow, yeah, thought provoking. Yeah, I did it. I did it. That's the level I wanted to get to. Thought provoking. All right, next paragraph, however, uh oh uh oh, you get the however now that's almost like but which kind of negates everything that comes before. However, uh uh oh transition however, coma, oh boy, here we go as someone who finds deep meaning and Prevenian grace and I'm like, oh no, why did you do that? Why did you tell me that?

16:11 Because this is someone who finds deep meaning in this theological concept. Do you see. It's like someone just laid down the mines they put they put hidden minds all over the field and said, walk across that field, don't step on the mind and and blow yourself up. Because this is like, if you find deep meaning in it, then there's a high probability if I don't agree with it, that I may say things that doesn't seem to take into consideration the deep meaning you find in it. It's like if someone is a charismatic and they email me and like, I've heard that you don't like charismatic theology, but I find deep meaning in it. Oh no, what am I going to do? Because if I start talking about charismatic theology, I'm going to a fi someone who finds deep meaning in it, right, So I don't want to do that, but I mean that right there just makes me like, oh boy, what am I going to do.

17:08 I gotta be careful here, I gotta be careful, but I'm not always good at being careful. So let me make this very clear to the original emailer, I appreciate. I understand finding deep meaning and a particular theological belief or a theological system. I truly understand that I, by no means want to unnecessarily offend. I don't want to, in any way, shape or form say anything that would be offensive. I don't want to, all right, but I will say this. I would at least, and I know this is not what you mean, but I will at least want to challenge us. What we need to do is try to find deep meaning and truth, not in a theological system, because rarely does truth fit in nicely to any one theolological system. Now, I'm not saying you're not you don't find deep meaning in truth. I'm not saying you don't. I'm just saying that MY focus is finding deep meaning and truth, whether that offends or doesn't offend, whether it offends friend or foe, like not, I have no loyal I don't want to have loyalty to a thiological system, is what I'm trying to say. But I understand finding deep meaning in it, right, because there's probably theological beliefs that I find deep meaning in, and if someone goes after those, then I could become very defensive.

18:32 And get very upset. So I don't want to necessarily say anything that's just going to be like trying to be offensive. But when we get into some of this discussion about Grace, as you heard in the last episode, I have strong feelings about what some people claim about Grace, I get very bothered by. And I get bothered not because they make the claim or they have the belief. I always get bothered by the implications of So let me explain. Why do I hate charismatic theology because they make certain theological claims. No, I hate charismatic theology because of the implications of those claims. Because if you tell everyone, when Jesus died on the cross, by his stripes, you were healed, and so physical healing is guaranteed in the here and now, well, now the implications is you should be healed, and when people aren't healed, then you get blamed because you don't have enough faith. Okay, now I'm tipped off. Now I want to scream. Now I want to throw things. Not because you have some philological belief that I disagree with, because of the implications of that.

19:39 When you claim that you heard directly from God and God told you this well, now I'm going to get frustrated because now I can't even disagree with you because you claim you got your understanding directly from the throne room of heaven. So then there's no way to even argue with you. That's frustrating. So it's not the belief necessarily, it's the it's the the implications of said belief. It's what it leads to. It can lead to people becoming if you tell people now that you're saved, you've been enabled to do abcdefg. Well, now you're telling people this and when they can't do it, and when they it doesn't work that way, you then tell them you were never saved. That the implications of that that hurts people.

20:26 That does damage to people. So if we talk about Provenian grace, depending on what you say that grace does or makes available to people, that's where I may get frustrated. If that makes sense, all right, But it goes on to say I could not help or I couldn't help. But notice that this perspective was absent from the conversation. It was, to be honest, it was I don't really give much thought about Provenian grace. I'm not a part of that system, and I don't think I've ever even I've been in probably systems that probably kind of lean that direction, but I never, I never. I kind of always just moved past it. But let's see where they go here. And my view, preveniate grace beautifully bridges the gap between imputed and infused righteousness. Now I don't know exactly how they mean that, because to me, we don't bridge the gap between infused and imputed righteousness. That's not a gap to be bridged. That's the bridge we blow up, so that the two sides can never come close to each other because they're diametrically opposed to one another. I don't want a bridge where infused righteousness can get closer to imputed righteousness, or imputed righteousness can get closer to infuse righteousness. I want to blow that bridge up, and if I can, I'm going to dig out the canyon to even be further and further and further and further and further and further and further apart, where the two shall never meet. I don't want to shake hands. I

21:58 don't want to be on the same side, because if I'm gonna get anywhere close to infused righteousness, I'm just going back to the Roman Catholic Church. I'm just going to Catholicism. It's been around forever, it's got a structure. If I get anywhere near infused righteousness, I'm not going to your little, you know, Protestant church where you claim to be Protestant, but in reality you're just more Catholic than you even admit. I'm just going to go straight to Catholicism and just call it a day, right, just call it a day. So I don't Now, I don't know. I don't think that's what they mean. But I don't want to bridge the gap, all right. I believe infused and imputed. That's the whole Protestant Reformation. The two cannot coexist. There are opposite sides. Now what does he mean by this, Well, he continues, prevenient grace beautifully bridges the gap between imputed and infused righteousness. Again, I'm not saying he meant it the way I hear it in my mind. I don't want to bridge the gap. I know he doesn't mean it that way, but that's okay. He goes on to say it beautifully bridges the gap between imputed and infused righteousness.

23:01 Emphasizing God's grace that enables us to respond in faith while still preserving our free will. Oh man, I got so that. That's like this, that open. I don't even know where to stop. I don't even know where to start. Okay, that just oh, oh my goodness. So let's first go on with the idea of free will. Let's just go with the concept of free will, all right. Immediately. I hear Pelagianism, semi Pelagianism all day long. All right, so let me make it very clear. Already I have a problem. The minute you bring the words in free will, I I got nothing but problems. And here's the reason. And this is where I would agree with Pelagius. We if you go listen to my discussions on the eighteen points of Pelagianism, you'll know that if like Pelagia, I admire Pelagius for just being so straightforward and being honest and not pretending. If people have free will, if they have free will to any capacity, then that free will should be able to choose to be perfect, to be holy, and to keep the law of God. Because it's free, it can do and if there's anything restraining it, anything holding it back. So it cannot get to perfection. Logically, that's not free. So if we believe in free will, then people can freely choose to be perfect. Now I

24:32 know Proveniate Grace is going to say, well, you've got to have proveniate grace to experience this freedom to some level. And this is where it'll get a little bit kind of complicated, and we'll try to walk through it. So I know at this point it may sound like I don't understand Provenate grace. Let me just make it clear. If at any point someone's will becomes free at any point, then that freedom can get can can at least make possible that someone could then freely choose to obey God's law perfectly because the will would be free. The will isn't free. How do I know that? Because no one can freely choose to be perfect, because no one ever has.

25:12 So I've got the entire history of humanity other than Jesus Christ, which of course is different than us because he was the incarnate, eternal son of God without a sinful nature, right, But the entire history of humanity is sins and sin sin, sin, sin, sin, s failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, failure, And therefore we cannot obey the law, we cannot keep the law. That's why Jesus Christ came to save us by grace through faith, because we cannot save ourselves. And that so the entire history of humanity proves that we do not have a free will, because if we have a free will, we could freely choose to be perfect.

25:55 Now what some people say, Well, you're free in this way, but you're not free in this way. That's not free. That's limited. That's like you're giving the ability to do this, but not this. That's not total freedom, that's partial freedom. That's semi freedom. That's not true freedom. And again, if I can't do certain things, then I'm not truly free. Hey you're free. Oh I'm gonna do this. Well, no, you can't do that. You can't do that, and you can't do that. But I'm free. Well no, you're not free. Okay, we'll see. Then now we have a problem. So I believe free will are already have a problem with this.

26:36 All right, but please note that preveniant grace emphasizes God's grace that enables us. There's the enabling part to respond in faith while still preserving our free will. Now, what they mean by this is that prevenient grace now gives you the ability to believe, but it doesn't force you to believe. So your will is free in order to believe, but you don't have to believe. It's not gonna make you believe. Where Like in a reform view, I'm granted faith. God gives me the faith to believe. It's not that I mean I have faith, I believe. It's not like, well, he gives me the faith and I could or couldn't.

27:17 He gives me the faith and I believe. He gives me the repentance and I change my mind. Those are divine gifts given to us by God. Efhesians two eight. Grace and faith are gifts given to us by God. My faith is given to me and preventing it grace, it's faith. You're just given the ability to believe. You may believe or you may not believe. You're just given the ability to believe. It's not that you're necessarily given faith. You're just given the ability to have faith. I think that's a Now, now some people are gonna say I'm not being accurate. There we'll get into it, maybe a more technical definition. All right, now again, now that's that. Now, Now, once the will becomes free, is it only free to believe?

28:00 Or and then does the freedom go away? Do you get a temporary freedom or maybe it's a permanent freedom. You get a permanent freedom to believe. But that's it. The freedom is limited only to faith in salvation. After that, you're not given any you don't have the freedom. So then is it like a kind of free will only in the ability to believe, not freedom in anywhere else? Now you get into this mixture of Palagianism semipalagianism, and now we get into all the different views throughout Church history. It acknowledges that God's grace is present before salvation, drawing us to Him without compromising our choice. So they want to they want to protect two things. God. You need God.

28:44 You got to have God doing a work. He gives you the grace, He gives you the ability to believe. He may draw you but but, but but but you have the choice to refuse. Well, what's what where's the choice to refuse? Come? What would make me want to refuse? Where is that coming from? Where is that something arising in me going I don't want God's grace. I don't want God's faith. I don't want to go to heaven. I want to go to hell. What is causing that to push back against it? Oh? That would be my sinful nature. But if I have a sinful nature, then how is my will? Is my will set free from the sinful nature? Or is it only set free in order so that I can believe? But if I can believe, but I have something in me that doesn't want to believe, well, then am I really free to believe? Oh? See, now we're getting really complicated, right, But that's a good question. Hey, previnia grace gives you the ability to believe? Well, then why do I not want to believe? Where is the not wanting to believe coming from? Where is that? I don't want God, I don't want Jesus, I don't want heaven.

29:46 I want my sin. Where is that coming from? Oh, that's coming from my sinful nature. If I have a sinful nature, then the will is not actually free, because now there's something impacting the will. See if you say that, I'm enabled to believe, but there's something impacting my desire to believe, then my will is not actually free. So is it free or is it not free? If it's free, then that means you've eradicated this sinful nature completely and now the will is completely neutral and so so well, now we're kind of going back to a Pelagian view. Oh now, see, remember when Christianity was so easy and you didn't know any of this stuff. See, the more theology you learn, the more complicated it becomes. That's why some people don't like theology. They hate it because it is a mess. And trust me, go to multiple schools.

30:34 But I got a degree from this school. I got a degree from this school. And guess what, they don't agree on anything. Okay, I got a degree from this school. And sometimes by the time it's over, you just like blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. What did you learn in all of your life is studying theology? No one agrees on anything, all right. He goes on to say, I'd be thrilled to hear your thoughts on how prevenient grace fits into the broader discussion of righteousness and grace. Have you considered exploring it in a future episode? I believe it would add another layer to an already rich conversation. Well, now by this point he's probably like, well, that guy's an idiot. Why did I email him? I can understand, I totally. I tried to be careful here. But at the same time, I have to raise all of these theological questions, because that's the thing with theology. See, you ask one question, you put forth one idea, there's like thirty seven other contrary ideas and questions. It's never simple, it's never a straight line. It's theology is like a ball of yarn. It's just all wrapped together. You say one thing, Well, then what about this? You talk about free will? Well, what about a sinful nature? You get rid of the sinful nature, then the will is free.

31:46 If the will is free, then it can do. Well what about this? And what about that? And what about this and all? And you've got to just kind of pull like one string from the ball of yarn and go, okay, well I got one string. Now what some people do. They'll pull out one string from the ball of yarn, lay it down and go see it simple, Yeah, because you pull that from the rest of the bawl of yarn. But it's all interconnected, and it becomes convoluted and complicated. I'm not seeing the emailer is doing that. I'm saying this is the way it happens. The emailer goes on to say thank you for the work you do. I always look forward to your podcast, keep inspiring and chilling us to think deeper, looking forward to your next episode. And what I love about this emailer they give their first name, they give their last name, they even give their phone number. I do love that. I love that.

32:33 Typically the people who attack you no name, no phone number. In many cases, when you reply to the email, that email has been closed. They created a temporary email account to attack you, and then they disappear. Oh I can't stand that. So I do appreciate that. And again, let me make it very clear, this is not about the person. This is about me trying to take this concept of proveniate grace. Anything I say is not directed towards the person that per I don't know everything the person believes about prevenient grace. So this is not in any way an attack upon a person. It's not even an attack upon their belief. It's just like we've got this I take. When it comes to theology, it's not personal. Right, it's not personal. If I get into a debate about theology what you have. Now, sometimes I'm not I don't always do it well, but I try to remember. No, let's just step away from persons. It's not you me. We have this theological idea, we debate about the theological idea, and then we go back. It's not a personal thing.

33:31 I don't want to define you by that theology, and I don't want you to define me by my theology, because we're more than just a theological belief that's just a part of us. Does that make sense? Okay, so let's do some work here. Let's do some work here in prevenient grace. I got pages of notes here going all the way back to kind of the things we discussed. All right, but let's so let's try to consider this. We're just going to do this in a general sense. First, let's try to figure out and our broader discussion about grace enabling, because that's how this all started. Is Ambassador Baptist College chapel service was like grace enables you, And I'm like, I believe it was Ambassador Baptist College if I remember correctly, And I was like, way what so, how would then the concept of prevene it grace. See when I look at the word, say how good I've done?

34:24 Really good? Everyone applaud I haven't said pervinia. I've said preveny it grace every single time. Right, come on, Okay, nobody's impressed. Okay, I'm impressed. Or right, proveniate grace? How does that concept? I'm having a little bit of fun here, people, when you're dealing with something so academic and technical, I got to break it up a little bit, right, And if I can make a little fun of myself and how I may say a word, then I'm trying to just add a little levity. Okay, all right, some people miss the whole point with my whole joking about how to say And also sometimes when I stress I say it one way, they say it the other way. It hopefully then just places it in your brain and you'll never forget it. Okay, are so prevenian grace? How does Provenian grace fit into this discussion? All right? Now? If we take Provenian grace as understood in our many in theology, right now, I only want to approach it and how it's understood within our many a theology because it shows up in other places if we if we ignore that, then we don't know church history. Right. The idea of preveniate grace is that it's a grace that goes before.

35:37 It goes before. That's the key. It goes before and it enables a person to respond to God's call to salvation. It enables you, So it goes before. You're not saved, but prevenian grace now shows up and enables you to respond to the Gospel, and it gives you the ability to respond on Now, this is very important. It is not saving in itself. It doesn't save you. But this is how it's typically understood. It typically is understood that it removes the effects of total depravity enough so that a person can choose to believe the gospel. Now, this is where it gets very convoluted. It doesn't remove all of total depravity, but it removes enough of total depravity so that now you can believe. You can. But again, if there's still something holding you back, if there's still that sinful nature, that's going to be like, you don't want God, you want to serve yourself, you want to love your sin. If that's still in you, well then how much freedom? Like then it becomes like, how do you even measure this? You have now the freedom to believe, but you have this other part in you saying don't believe.

36:58 So how free then is decision to believe? If you also have something inside of you fighting against your desire to even believe, then how free? Now? I don't even know how you measure it or quantify it, all right, but it just removes the effects of total depravity enough, not in total, so now you're not totally depraved. Now you're only fifty percent depraved or forty percent. I don't even know what the measurement is now. Please note this is very different than reform theology, where grace is effectual and irresistibly applied to the elect Now please note within the reform war, we've got to make sure we're very careful to understand this. There is kind of a common grace, and then there will be effectual grace. Common grace is resisted by everyone. Common grace can be resisted, it is resisted effectual grace, right and well, sometimes we could call it the general call, the effectual call. I'm summarizing reform of the I'm not going to get into grace, a call, and all of it. So make sure I'm oversimplifying reform theology here, right, But there's this idea that there's there's a part we can resist until it becomes irresistible, until we receive the effectual call. Then at that point we will believe. That's in reform theology. Right, So there is an aspect of resisting until the call becomes there's the general call that well, I said, O, casing common grace

38:29 will go with, Well, you'll use general call and effectual call because that's more more thiologically precise language. The general call goes to everyone. The gospel is preach, people share the gospel, and everyone can resist the general call. It's going to be resisted because we are totally depraved. The effectual call is when then God calls the elect and he gives them faith. He literally gives them faith, He changes their mind so then they will believe. So there's a slight prevenient grace doesn't save you, gives you the ability now to choose to be saved because it removes part of your total depravity. All right, So I asked AI, so does how does this kind of fit into the broader discussion and AI said, Well, if someone defines grace as enabling in the sense of Prevenian grace, it would mean that grace gives a person the ability to obey, but obedience is still contingent upon their choice. Now, this gets really confusing. So in some ways, Provenian grace would say, yes, this gives you the ability to obey, but it's dependent upon your choice. Okay, so I have the ability to obey, but I have the choice to disobey. What would motivate the choice to disobey? What would cause me not to obey?

39:53 What would cause me not to want to obey? If if that's my sinful nature, Well then I'm not completely free, am I? Because there's something inside holding me back? And if I have any ability to obey, how far does that go? Do I have the ability to obey perfectly? No, Well then I'm not free to obey. If there's anything limiting my obedience, then I'm not free in this framework of preventing it grace, this is AI, Grace is necessary, but it is not sufficient cause of obedience. Humans must cooperate with it. So this is kind of like a cooper.

40:40 God gives you now ability, but you've got to cooperate with it. Well, that sounds very infused righteous. That sounds very infused righteousness. Where righteousnes if you read Catholicism, I should pull up the Catholic Catechism. I've got it a run her somewhere. It's infused in you, and you have to cooperate with it. So you're given an ability, but you've got to cooperate with the ability. That sounds so Roman Catholic it's not even funny. All right. Now, AI wants to go back to the Ambassador Baptist College and wants to talk about that, all right, So I'm not gonna get into all of that, okay, because Ai Ai Ai had some major issues with the Ambassador Baptist College message a A I was still Ai wants to continue to talk about it, all right. So then so I finally had to kind of say, hey, Ai, okay, I get it. You didn't you didn't like the chapel message, but I need you to answer this question. How does Prevenan grace fit into this discussion. I need you to focus on this. Stop worrying about Ambassador Baptist College. So AI said, Well, if Prevenyan grace is emphasized, then The issue is whether grace merely allows obedience or actually produces obedience.

41:53 So if preveniate grace is emphasized, then you have to figure out does it only allow or does it produce? If it only allows obedience, then of course my question is this is not AI. Well, then what is the thing going against that I'm allowed to do it, but there's something pulling me not to do it. Well, then it's kind of freedom, but not freedom. Hey you're free, but you still have this thing inside of you that's going to go against everything that your freedom wants to do. Well, then now I'm how does that work? Now, that's preveniate grace. So that but now AI goes on to say, if enabling grace is emphasized post conversion, then we risk blurring the line between justification and sanctification and moving towards confused righteousness. Now, if preveny it grace, that's kind of before, right, and so now we still have this convoluted part here. But if that proveniate grace is applied post conversion, well, now ladies and gentlemen, now we're right back to Hey, you're infused with this power, you have this ability, and so now it's all basically infused righteousness. So then AI starts asking questions or starts making statements. If grace is truly an enabling force and the way at least some speak, well, then why do believers still struggle so much with sin?

43:24 If you're enabled? Why is there a struggle? If I am enabled? Well, then where is the struggle with sin coming from? Even AI recognizes this is a problem, right sin? There is sin not there? Does it remove completely the impact of total depravity? Or does it not? What is going on? All? Right? AI says, why don't we see tangible evidence of this enabling leading to greater victory over sin? And all believers? Wouldn't truly an enabling grace eventually lead to some reaching near sinless? States? Those are questions put forth by AI. That's not my questions. AI is asking that question. Let me read that entire paragraph. If grace is truly an enabling force in the way some suggest, then why do believers still struggle so much with sin?

44:12 Why don't we see tangible evidence of this enabling lead this enabling leading to greater victory over sin? And all believers wouldn't truly wouldn't a truly enabling grace eventually leads some to reaching near sinless states, and I'm like, well yes, And then a ashler is asking me all kinds of other questions because AI is like, do you think that this is what is happening in Christianity? Do you think this is I'm like, yeah, I think Christianity has lost his ever living mind and this enabling it. See, everybody wants to have some kind of enabling somewhere, post pre somewhere. But once you say grace enables, now you've got to either you've got to cut it off. Hey, Provenian Now some in Provinian grace may say, well, it just allows you to believe, and then after that you do no longer have an enabling power. It's only enabling to get you to faith. But then wait a minute, a lot of people don't believe, So why do people? Why do the people? Why do some people not believe? What's causing it?

45:17 What's causing some not to believe? Well it would be internal depravity. Well, if you still have an internal depravity, then are you truly free? Because because well that person chose and that person don't, Well, then guess what God enabled? But you were smarter than that person. So you're gonna get some of the credit for this. See, you, you were given the power to believe. They were given the power to believe. I'm sorry, you were given the ability to believe. They were given the ability to believe. But you were able to overcome all of that sin nature inside of you and say I'm not gonna listen to my sin I'm gonna listen to God. Well, congratulations, you get the glory. That person over there, well, they were a complete moron. They were complete any I said of using this enabling power. They kept giving in to their sinful nature and they refused to believe. They're an idiot.

46:08 You're smart. So who gets glory? You do? Don't tell me God gets the glory. You get the glory. God just said here, I'm gonna give you the ability, but it's up to you. Well, then, now, if it's up to you, you get the glory. You did the choosing you. You fought against your sinful nature. You did not let it stop you from keeping you from believing. But the person over there, they weren't as successful as you. They weren't as strong as you. And then wait, maybe the reason this person wasn't strong as you is I don't know. Maybe you were raised in a Christian home and you were around Christianity and you were taught all the benefits of it, and you were given all the benefits. And this person was raised being molested, beaten, and their lives absolutely were horrible, and so they never were able to really believe because they had a hard time believing because of the things that that happened to them. Forget the deprivate the inside of them. Wait, so, but you still get the credit because you chose. God didn't give you the faith, He just gave you the ability to believe.

47:09 And everyone gets the equal ability. But we don't take any to consideration the external circumstances that may change that, or how different people may fight against the internal depravity. And how are you fighting against the internal depravity when you're not even saved. Well, you're fighting against the internal depravity because God now has freed you from some aspects of it, but he didn't free you from all aspects of it. See, this becomes more complicated. So I was like, Okay, now I could ask all of these questions. I'm like, but let's let's take a step back. Let's take a step back Oh man, we're at forty seven minutes. We're not even getting any We're close, but we're going to try to go through this. I'm like, you know what, what I want to demonstrate here is just how convoluted and confusing this all can get. But let's dig into the history here, and it may even get a little bit more confusion. First, let's start with a definition. Let's try to at least define proveniate grace. We didn't really define it too much. Let's try to define it. Typically, proveniate grace refers to the grace that goes before. We did say that it is the grace of God that precedes human decision and inables fallen individuals to respond to the Gospel. The doctrine is most associated with our mini in theology, and it is a response to the reformed doctrine of total depravity and irresistible grace. Preveniate grace does not regenerate, So when it comes to preveniate grace, you're not being regenerated. Okay, it does not save you, but

48:43 it counter acts the effects of original sin just enough to allow you to freely choose or reject God. So you've got original sin, but somehow it freely allows you to do so. So does everyone have the same level of freedom? And if someone doesn't believe, is that simply the will is completely neutral and it's not being impacted by any form of the inward sin. But some people don't believe. It's got to be coming from somewhere unless you're gonna blame it all on external circumstances. Oh, this gets all confusing at this point. It is resistible, meaning individuals can refuse this grace and remain in their sinful state.

49:27 Now wait a minute, so you can refuse it, but what is causing you to refuse it? And says then you can remain in your sinful state. So do you stop being in your sinful state for a period of time prevenient grace shows up, you're not in a sinful state, Then you're completely morally neutral. Then you choose, don't choose. Once you make your choice, then you go back to your sinful nature. Is that like a pro probation period? And I'm not saying this to be sarcastic. Whenever we make these psyllological claims, it doesn't matter any side reform non reform. There's always a million questions that come along with it, and you know what you're gonna find. No system can answer the system the questions clean cleanly reforms can't.

50:10 Non reform nobody can because it gets messy. So if we try to summarize the doctrine, prevenient grace as universal, it's given to all people, not just the elect. It enables, but it does not ensure a faith response. Unlike irresistible grace. It does not guarantee that a person will believe. So it just enables. There's the enabling part. It enables, but it doesn't guarantee. Again, why so who gets the credit? You get the credit because you chose and the other person didn't choose. Or is the reason some choose and don't choose. It's because of the internal depravity. But you've been freed from at least part of it, Like I don't know, in some way, somehow a human being is going to get credit. Okay, it restores limited free when please note that. Now this is where it gets maybe even more complicated. It's restored limited free will. Humanity has fallen and unable to choose God apart from grace. Proveniant grace restores a person's ability to respond to the Gospel.

51:16 So In some cases, proveniate grace will be like, no, no, it's just temporary, it's limited. It only allows you to respond to the gospel. That's it. It only frees you to do that. But again, then is it freeing me completely from my depravity so that I can choose freely? But if someone doesn't believe, what's causing them not to believe? What is the thing causing them not to believe? If you point to anything internally, then you're not being truly freed from your original sin. It's resistible. Unlike the reform view of grace, a person can reject proveniant grace and remain in their sinful state. It precedes salvation, but does not save. It allows people to believe, but salvation will depend on their faith response. Please note that what does salvation depend on your faith response? Your faith response meaning you get the credit. You are the one who believed, they chose not to believe. You get the credit. So there is some glory and what you did. And if you see the call to faith as a command, then you've been given the ability to obey the command and you obeyed it on your own. Well, now, now is that a state? Is that salvation by works, and now we get into all kinds of issues. Now, what is the origins of this, Well, the early Church. The roots of prevenient grace can be seen in early Church discussions

52:48 about grace and free will. If we go to Augustine, what three point fifty four four thirty eighty somewhere around now, three fifty four thirty, three fifty four thirty two, somewhere around that time. I think it's three fifty four to four thirty, he strongly emphasized the necessity of grace for salvation, which laid the foundation for the debates. Augustine was like, Hey, you've got to have grace for salvation. You got to have it, and that begins to lay the debates, right lays the French. Oh we have to have grace. Oh we have to have grace. So how does this grace work? Does this grace? Is it proveniate grace? Is it irresistible grace? Like? What? How do we understand it? Then we know Pelagius comes along, right, Pelagius comes along, he's what three fifty four four eighteen, he's, you know, basically the same same timeframe as Augustine. That's where you get into the Augustinian Pelagian debate here rejected.

53:45 Pelagius just completely rejected the necessity of divine grace, arguing that humans could obey God without supernatural aid. Pelagius is like none, you don't need grace. You can just choose to do it because your will is completely free because you did not inherit a sinful nature from Adam Pelagia. I look, I admit I admire Pelagius. He doesn't play this game. Well, you have a sinful nature, but you don't have a sinful nature. Well you can't, but you can't, you could, you should. No, Pelagians is just straight up, you don't have a sinful nature. Stop blaming it on Adam. Just too good. I'm second tired of this weak Christianity that makes excuses for their sin. You don't have any excuse.

54:25 You're free. You can do it, so just obey and stop pretending that you can't. You gotta kind of admire Pelagias. Well, the rest of us is like, well, I can, but a can, A could, but a should? Maybe I can. Well I can do this, but I can't do that. Maybe I'm free here, but I'm not free here. It gets all convoluted at least Pelagias picked aside. Okay, semi Pallagianism. Now now we're up to like the fifth century. They hold that humans take the first step towards God and then grace aids them. So you you're the one who takes the first step and then grace steps in and kind of helps. Right, So now we get to medieval theology. We jump to the Council of Orange, which is around five twenty nine a D. Remember I told you everybody needs to study the ecumenical councils and the different councils.

55:14 Now we're five twenty nine AD. Now they reject Council of Orange completely rejects Pallagianism. They affirm that grace is necessary for salvation, but they didn't go as far as embracing full Augustinian predestination. So they say, yes, you need grace now the minute, see the minute you say grace is necessary. That's where you're going to get into preveniant grace. Well, grace is necessary, but how does it work? Now? See the issue with preveniant grace and say reform people is both sides say grace is necessary. Now how does it work? Not only does how does it work. Now, how do you understand me? Us? Am I free? Am I not free? Do I have a sinful nature? Have I been freed from that sinful nature? Now you get into some very specific questions. Now and jump to the twelve hundreds, twelve twenty five to twelve seventy four. Thomas Aquinas shows up on the stage. Now, Thomas Aquinas develops a concept of Provenian grace. He develops a system of Provenian grace. Oh wait, within Catholicism, Prevenia grace and Catholicism are much more in line than anybody wants to admit. And see, this is where my problem would get because anything that's going to lead me back to Catholicism, why am I going to play around with kind of catholic That's why I get frustrated with some of the lordship and some of the other forms of Protestantism that almost puts forth an infused righteous idea. The minute you're gonna lead me back to Catholicism,

56:44 Why am I gonna pretend with you guys that you're the cool non Catholics when reality you are more Catholics than Catholics. Want to just go back and go all the way to go go home, as Catholics would say, let's just got stop pretending well. Provenian grace. Thomas Aquanas shows up. Now he's gonna he's gonna shape Prevenian grace within a Catholic framework, but it's there. Now we go from the twelve hundreds and we jump to the fifteen hundreds, and now we're during the Reformation. Calvin shows up on the scene what fifteen oh nine, fifteen sixty four. He rejects proveniant grace and he emphasizes total depravity and then what is known as irresistible grace. Now understand, irresistible grace doesn't mean it's always it's always irresistible. We resist until the saving work of God begins. Okay, so just make sure you understand that, because that can be a misunderstood as well. And I'm not saying that's easy to understand.

57:40 There's questions that could be asked there. But we are discussing proveniant grace in this episode. Now, Martin Luther comes on the scene. Actually he comes on the scene before Calvin because he's born before Calvin. Calvin's what fifteen oh nine and Luther's what fourteen something, fourteen fourteen eighty three, I think is somewhere along those lines. Luther is born. So Luther. Actually I should have put Luther before Calvin if I'm going in chronological order. But Luther shows up now his view is more in line with Calvin, emphasizing human inability to respond to God without divine intervention. Now, please note proveniate grace. And many of the reformers are in agreement that we need grace, we need divine intervention or we will not respond. That is one thing that we do have agreement on. Right, we cannot respond without God intervening. We have to have divine intervention. I am complete agreement with that. Now, of course, Jacob Arminius shows up on the scene fifteen sixty to sixteen oh nine.

58:44 Here we go. Now, Jacob Arminius is where it all really starts. He develops Provenian grace as a response to Calvinism. He does not like Calvinism, and so he creates preveniate grace because he in some cases he may agree with the idea that God needs to intervene, but he doesn't like the way the Calvinists describes it. So he's got to find this kind of a middle of the road. Well, God's got to intervene, but we're not going to go all the way the way the Calvinists go, so we have to have this kind of middle of the road. So he argues that humans are totally depraved, God extends proveniate grace to everyone, making faith possible. So now God just gives you, the everyone the ability to believe. Now, the way this was taught to me and my first independent fundamental Baptist school that I went to, a Twin Cities Bible Institute in Papilion, Nebraska. The first one I went to, they were like, okay, think of it this way we have. We're totally depraved, but inside of us is our will, and our will is insulated. It's protected.

59:49 It has like a shield around it, it has a wall around it, and that depravity does not impact our will. So our will is completely free to choose to believe. Now. The only problem with that they didn't necessarily call it preveniate grace, but they wanted the will to be free, So then I would be like, well, if the will is free, then guess what. I don't need grace then to obey God because the will is free. So if the will is free, is the will free only to believe in God, or is the will then to be able to obey God now prevenient grace, and some try to limit it. Well, so it only is free in this one minuscule area, I mean a significant area, So I don't want to say minuscule, this one area, say that gets all confusing. So then that's that's the Reformation period.

1:00:39 Now we jump to the Wesleyans and and kind of and modern Arminianism. Wesley shows up with seventeen oh three seventeen ninety one. He develops even more this idea of preveniate grace, making it central to Methodist theology. He emphasizes that God's grace is given to all, enabling them to accept or reject salvation. Really it's the same, it's the modern idea of Provenian grace. Really, Jacob Arminius and John Wesley are very much in the same page. I mean, I could probably try to fall find distinctions, but you get the idea. Then that goes to modern Armenianism. Prevenian grace remains a formal or foundational doctrine and Methodist free will, Baptists and other Armenian theological traditions well as everyone knows I'm not a Methodist, definitely not a free will Baptist, definitely not an Armenian. So I then obviously don't fit in anywhere. Now I could compare all of these views, but I got a little chart here. Had AI build me a chart, And it gives me Calvinism, Armenianism, semi Pallagianism, Pallagianism, the view of grace, the effects on human will, the role in salvation. All right, it gives me the key differences.

1:01:51 Now gives me criticisms of preveniant grace, all right. Now, from a Calvinistic perspective, Provenian grace is seen as unbiblical. Well, it's an unbiblical compromise that fails to acknowledge the radical effects of total depravity. They argue that Scripture presents grace as effectual and saving, not merely enabling. Catholics. Proveniate grace, has understood in Arminianism, is not far enough from the reform view. Catholic theology maintains a more sacramental approach to grace. So the Catholics have provenient grace. But when you take Jacob Arminius and Wesley, they're like, you don't go far enough. You're trying to find this some happy medium, and Catholics are like, you just need to just come on the way back over to well, Thomas aquinas understand, have proveniate grace, which precedes you, guys by a long time, right, so because they bring in the sacraments, all right, and then of course if you get into Plagianism, well then well everything else is there, all right. So now this is where I want to end. I know we're already at an hour all right, Now, this is where it can get confusing. But listen carefully and some aspects of our many in theology, preveniant grace functions primarily before salvation, enabling a person to respond to the Gospel. However, after salvation, the role of grace shifts. They no longer call it prevenian grace. They would refer to it as sanctifying grace,

1:03:21 which is believed to help believers grow in holiness. The key question, then, is does preveniate grace leave believers in a state where they can freely choose to obey all of God's law? Does proveniate grace leave you and this ability to choose, or does it put you back in the disability to choose or do you get a different kind of grace? All right? Now, post salvation role of grace and Arminianism. Once a person is saved, Provenian grace is no longer necessary in the same way because the believer has already responded to God God's call at that point, grace continues in the believer's life and the form of what they would say is three forms of grace. So you have prevenied. You say, how confusing this can all get.

1:04:14 You're gonna need a charge. Someone needs to make a chart. All right. So you got grace. So you got this kind of grace, and this kind of grace and this kind of grace. This is where Christianity can become maddening. Some will refer to the first kind of sanctifying grace, God's ongoing work and a believer helping them grow in holiness. It's okay, no, So God is the one helping me grow in holiness? All right? Well, if God is the one helping me grow in holiness, you think God could help me, I don't know, be holy and if I'm not holy, which I'm never going to be holy because holy is perfection. If God is helping me but I'm not there. Then my lack of being there would be because of the lack of God's help, because God didn't help me get all the way there. But we don't ever want to blame God. So I don't know how that's supposed to work. Some would then say the second kind is an enabling grace. The ideas that believers now have the power to choose obedience, now a lot. This is the majority of it. Now, this is where reformed and the Armenians will come together and almost agree. Yes, now that you're saved, you have the power to choose obedience.

1:05:17 Oh so I can choose to be perfect? Well no, wait, I thought you just said I did. Well, you do, but you don't. If I don't have the power to choose perfect obedience, then I don't have the power to choose obedience. And if you say I only have the power to choose some obedience, that makes no sense. Because of a violation at one point of the law, I'm guilty of all. And if I never reach holiness, which is the command, well then I'm in a perpetual state of sin. So then how do I ever measure any form of obedience? Then the whole thing becomes convoluted again, and this miss resistible grace. This is the third kind of grace, unlike Calvinism, where grace and sures perseverance and I believe. And this is where I disagree with Calvinist.

1:06:04 I don't believe it. It ensures perseverance and me persevering and basically living above sin. It just means that I will believe till the end, all right, I will have faith. God gave me faith, So if the faith given to me by God comes from God, then I will never lose said faith because it's a faith. It doesn't mean I'm going to persevere over sin. It depends on how some people describe perseverance. Armenians believe believers can resist grace and potentially fall away apostasy. This is where they believe you can lose your salvation. So within the Armenian camp it gets even more convoluted. God frees you from total depravity only so that you can choose to believe, but you can choose not to believe. We don't know really where that comes from. There's all this other grace, possibly working sanctifying and ably. However, you literally can say no to it all and go to hell. So then the grace really you're in control of it all. So really you get all the credit. You get the credit for believing, you get the credit for everything you do in your Christian life, and you get the credit if you make it to heaven because you kept choosing to believe it's all you and just say no, it's God. No, no, no, it's you. God only makes it able. You do all the choosing. So this raises the question does this mean believers can now obey all of God's law? Now? I asked Ai this. Ai said, well, if Prevenian grace enables choice pre salvation, then in our many in theology, post

1:07:38 salvation grace should give believers the ability to obey all of God's law, at least in theory. So it says like prevenia grace primarily is before but typically within these camps that hold the Provenian grace. I'm not gonna say every single person because they may want to have the you know, the switch is flipped. Oh now you have. Now you have freedom believe or don't believe. Oh now you believed. Now the switch is turned off. Now you've lost the ability. You can try to play that game. But in most of them they're going to continue on with some kind of ability. Well, then this raises some key problems, right, because if in theory you have the ability to obey all of God's law, here's some of the problems. Hey, this is not me, this is AI pointing out these problems. Number one, if grace inables but does not ensure obedience. If grace enables but does not ensure obedience, why does sin persist? If every believer has the ability to choose obedience freely, then some should, in theory, achieve near perfect obedience, but no one does. This raises the question, if grace enables obedience, is failure to obey due to a lack of grace or to human resistance?

1:08:54 And if it's coming from human resistance, where does the human resistance come from? Now that last part I added, that wasn't AI? A lot of times when I'm using the words of AI, I try to tell you when I am, But most of the time it's a mixture of mine and theirs. But I try to, you know, do I try to draw a distinction? AI then ask a second question, does this not lead to a semi Pallagian framework? If post salvation grace simply makes obedience possible but does not guarantee it. Then it applies that obedience ultimately depends on human effort. Oh, no way, This makes grace sound more like assistance rather than something that truly transforms.

1:09:38 This would be a more Pelagian concept. How does this fit in with total depravity? Are minions affirm that sin still affects believers? But if prevenient grace restores free will before salvation, does this mean believers post salvation are no longer depraved in any significant way. If believers can now fully obey, then sanctification becomes a matter of willpower rather than a reliance God's grace. So then Ai said basically said, do you want a chart? And it gives me a chart, it gives me Calvinism or Minianism, Wesleyanism, which is Christian perfectionism semi Pelagianism, and it talks about so in Calvinism, can a believer fully obey? No? Believers remain in a struggle with sin our Minianism or Provenean grace. Theoretically a believer can fully obey, but in reality believers still sin.

1:10:30 Within the Wesleyan view, can a believer fully obey will some claim to achieve perfect love, but not absolute perfection. And in semi pelagianism and principle, yes a believer can fully obey, but failure is due to human weakness. So guess what all these people who even say you're free, you're kind of free, you're enabled, you're not enabled, they all ultimately will back off and say, well, nobody can be perfect. Well, then you're not free, and then clearly you're not enabled. And if you're then it becomes confusing. So then I asked Ai, so what's the problem here? Here's what Ai said. The big problem is the reality of sin. If grace makes obedience fully possible, then some believers should be able to fully obey, yet no one does.

1:11:17 Failure to obey would seem to be due to a personal choice, yet even the most devoted believers still struggle. It creates a works based sanctification. I think it creates a works based everything. If the only thing stopping obedience is simply your will power, then grace is not even necessary. If it's just you who chooses to be saved, then it's just you who can choose not to sin, unless you say preveniant, Grace is turned off the minute you believe, and then now you go back to not having free will. So do you have free will or do you not have free will? If you have free will, then look, our argument is not about prevenient grace. Our argument is not about reform theology. It's simple. If you have free will, don't are argue with me. Go be perfect and then write a book about how perfect you are. Now you want to make You may want to make sure you move away from everyone. You may want to declare to everyone, Hey, everyone, today I have become perfect. I'm leaving. Then go go move somewhere into a mountain where no one can find you.

1:12:21 No one can, no one has your Internet history, no one knows your thought life. You can, and then you can write a book telling everyone how perfect you are, because then you'll have a very good chance of not being found out. But if you're anywhere near people, they know you're not perfect. They know you don't love your enemy, they know you'd worry, complain, have anxiety, you get angry, you frustrated, you lie, you deceee. They know you. So if you're gonna claim free will, then don't argue with me about free will. And I'm not saying this to the email or I'm just saying this in general when people argue about free will, I'm like, no, no, stop, let's not get into all of this prevented it, irresistible this this, No, no, no, it's not even about that. The minute we mention free will, then just go be perfect, and if you can't, that means there's something holding you back.

1:13:09 I will say this to the reform people who say, oh, now that we're are saved, we are given the power of God and we can obey his law. Okay, okay, let's not argue. Just go do it. But the minute you say, well I can't get the perfect hmm, well then you're not free. And if he can't get the perfect, then obviously there's something wrong with the power that's been given to you. There's a limit on the power. They put a governor like on the car keeping you from being able to go too fast. What God's giving you power, but he's limited his power that you only get the fifty percent obedience or sixty percent obedience. And how do you define obedience when the Bible says if you break one point of the law, you're guilty of all of it.

1:13:51 And if the standard is be holy as God is holy every second of every day. That you're not perfectly holy, you're in a perpetual state of sin. So if you're in a perpetual state of sin, how do you even define that you have any ability to do anything other than sin? Now, I do understand why you want Provenian grace. You want Provenian grace because you're trying to maintain free will because the idea of no free will scares everyone to death. And I understand that. But the minute you say free will, if proveniant grace is what opens free will or turns it on, does it only turn it on for a few minutes and then turns it off?

1:14:33 And even if it turns it on, why does some resist? What is it inside people that doesn't want salvation? Who in their right mind will say I want hell, I want my sin, I don't want God, I want to do my own thing. That's got to be something inside of us. Well, then if that is preventing someone from believing, then that means their will is impacted by sin, So then they're not freely free. You would have to say no, the sin no longer impacts them, They no longer have a desire to sin. They no longer had to desire anything because Previnia Grace took it all away. They now, and so it's all external forces. Well, then why does God put some people in horrible external situations and some people in very good external situations? Right? Why does some people put raised in a nice little home? There's there's you know, mister Rogers and missus Rogers. Hey son, come here.

1:15:29 We've got you a peanut butter and jelly sandwich with the crust cut off. Sit down, and here's a glass of milk. Mommy and Daddy loves you. We're gonna have devotionals now, and then we're gonna go to church, and then we're gonna get on the boat and go fishing. And then the other kid comes home. What are you doing home? I don't want you here, I hate you. I wish you were never born. Puts you in the face, burn you with a cigarette, whip you with an electric cord, tie you up in the closet, bitch you with a baseball bat and say I wish you were dead, or call you into the room, take a gun, stick it to their head and say I'm gonna kill myself because of you. Oh wow. Oh, and none of those stories I just said about how bad things are, Trust me, those aren't made up stories. Well wait, so if it's the external situations that keep people from believing, then why does God put people and some people in very bad circumstances?

1:16:24 Or maybe God's not in control. See, there's no end to these questions. Even if you free people from the internal part, the external part's gonna have massive impact on whether someone may believe or not believe. So then are they truly free if you've got such external forces working against your supposed freedom? What is freedom anyway? Like? What does that even mean? To be free? With me? You're free from all external and internal forces. Now again, I'm none of this is about the individual who wrote. It's not about make it very people were gonna go, oh, he was mean. I'm not being mean to the individual.

1:17:10 I don't even know what the individual believes about all of these issues. I'm saying. When you bring up Prevenian grace, when you bring up anything, when you bring up faith, grace, repentance, baptism, Lord's Supper, every theological issue there, it's a ball of yarn. I'm just trying to pull off each different strand of yarn in that ball of yarn that's all grouped together, and say, look at this piece, what about this piece? What about this? What about this? What? I'm just causing you to question at all, because that's what I try to do. You say, well, what's the easy answer. I don't have an easy answer. The one thing I do know, and I will be dogmatic about this. We are depraved sinners before salvation. We are depraved sinners and salvation because nobody can be perfect, so the sinful nature is still there. Therefore, the will is not free because if the will was free, you would choose to be perfect. And if you don't choose to be perfect, there's something keeping you from choosing to be perfect. Whatever keeps you from perfection is still in charge and still in power. Oh that would be I don't know sin. So then how am I saved?

1:18:18 Purely by grace through faith, not apart apart from works, apart from myself. I get no credit because I play no part of my salvation. God, by his grace has to grant me, the faith, has to grant me the repentance, and he saves me not based on anything I could do, would do, should do and the proof of my salvation is not anything I will do. Everything is based on what Christ did by an imputed righteousness. Nothing is infused, nothing like that occurs. Now I will be dogmatic about that because life proves that because of art ongoing sin.

1:19:00 Now maybe maybe I can. If you've figured out perfection, then by man, write a book. Don't even argue with me. Write the book. Go go start a conference how to be perfect in seven steps. I proved it. I proved that the will is completely free. Go write a book, Go show everyone. But I'm telling you be careful because sooner or later your imperfection's going to be seen. Sooner or later, it's going to be seen. And when then you're going to be exposed as a fraud. Not unless you can convince. I mean, you know, Trump convinces everyone is perfect. I'm making a joke. Don't want to tick off all the Trump supporters. All right, seventy nine minutes.

1:19:42 So when sent me an email, you got seventy nine minutes. And if you listen to my last broadcast, guess what that didn't cost you one cent where in church? Seventy nine minutes. That'd be like what thousand dollars for teaching hour, and that why we came up with five hundred dollars teaching hour. I should be charging for the I'm joking. I'm joking, all right, thank you, I hope I went through that quickly. Again to everyone I offended, I'm not trying. It's just I don't care about your theological team. Right, So, if you're preveniant Grace, I ticked you off. If you're not preveniant Grace, I probably ticked you off. I ticked off the Armenians, I ticked off the Calvinists, I ticked off the Pallagians. I ticked off everyone. And the guiding part and all of that, really, if you really be honest, the guiding part and all of that is just the reality of sin and the reality that nobody can be perfect.

1:20:42 Whatever theological system I come up with, I have to acknowledge nobody can be perfect. So what do I do with that? Well, that fits in with total depravity, and that clearly demonstrates logically that the will is not free and not everyone believes. So either you say, well, not everyone believes because they choose not to believe. But what's causing them choose not to believe. If it's sin, well then they're not free. You see, that's where it gets confusing. Now, at least in Calvinism, it may not be easy to accept, but at least it says, well, the reason these people believe is because God granted them faith, and God didn't grant them faith. You say, well, that's not fair and that's not right. I can understand that argument. I'm not saying that's easy either. Everyone has to explain why some believe in some don't believe. Everyone's got to have an answer for it. But to say someone is free, then that means then they don't have a depraved nature. So then you've got to explain what's motivating them. Not so then it's either internal or external factors. Well, if it's external factors, in it convenient how that plays out that some people have every external factor working for them and some have every external factor working against them. So that's not fair, even in a practical way. So it all becomes convoluted. All right, I'll stop right there. That's probably gonna just I'm probably gonna lose about one thousand listeners.

1:22:06 You watch, I guarantee you after this episode you watch. My numbers are going to go down, down, down, down down for probably the rest of February. You watch, there's gonna be a dramatic decrease. Probably will even see less people even supporting because you can't you can't win. When you talk about theology, you're going to offend someone. Whatever theological sides you take, you're gonna tick off someone. That's that's one of the hardest things about doing a theology podcast. Whatever subject I talk about, someone is going to disagree. I'm just good at making everyone disagree. So thanks for listening. Everyone, have a great day. Remember, put it on the refrigerator.

1:22:50 What are we gonna call it? Pervinia great? No prevenant, Grace, put it on the referra. I'm not joking. Put it on the refrigerator. How a good family discussion, Guys, today's topic prevene it, Grace. Go And when they say, they're going to look at you and say, stop listening to that stupid podcast. It's ruining my life. And I'm like, I know, I from what I can tell, it's ruining the life of the guy who does it. So yeah, so we're on the stand, so let's talk about it all right. Thanks everyone, have a great day. God, bless,