Prayer, Tragedy, and Sovereignty Pt 2

0:01 All right for this hour. I know if you look at most church websites, the way they promote their church is that this is a friendly place, or this is a place you come for encouragement, this is a place you come to be uplifted, This is a place all those types of marketing campaigns that the church is supposed to be place for encouragement, to be uplifted. It's a positive thing. What drives me crazy about that is that if anyone is even honest with the Bible or theology, it's not always uplifting. It's definitely not always positive, and it's definitely not always encouraging. Fact sometimes it's downright troubling and disturbing. But nobody ever wants to face those situations. So that is what we're doing today. We're facing something that's very uncomfortable, not very pleasant, not going to be very uplifting. And so you know, you can leave here until everyone how messed up your church is. But this is just what we have to do. So, as everyone knows, we have been working on Psalm eighty three now for a very long time, and we're taking a slight detour today to deal with something that everyone who reads p Ssaw eighty three should be confronted with. If you'll look at Ssaw eighty three, I'm just gonna go through this quickly to try to get everyone here in the second hour caught up from the first hour. But if you look at ssawn eighty three, if you'll look at verse one, if you look at verse nine, and you look at verse thirteen, Saw eighty three one,

1:34 Psalm eighty three, verse nine, Psalm eighty three, verse thirteen, you'll notice something is happening. And Psalm eighty three, verse one, the Ssamis writes, do not keep silent, Oh God, do not hold your peace, and do not be still, Oh God. And verse nine he says, deal with them. He's obviously speaking to someone to deal with someone else. And verse thirteen he says, oh my God, and three verses. It's very clear that the psalmist is crying out to God, or we would use the term praying to God. Now anyone who sees that, though, and reads the rest of the Psalm should at least stop and consider, hmn something makes absolutely no sense. And what is that that makes no sense?

2:25 About the prayer in Psalm eighty three. Now, the people here in the first hour cannot say, everyone else can say, what is the problem with this prayer? In Psalm eighty three, it's the problem with every prayer. When tragedy happens, pain happens, suffering happens, everyone wants God, everyone calls for prayer, to pray to God. But which God are you praying to? You're praying to the God who knew the tragedy, the difficult, the pain you're praying about, was going to happen, and did absolutely nothing to stop it. And that is at the minimum, at the most.

3:13 He did far more than that. So we're dealing with how prayer should supposedly work because there's a big part of it that makes absolutely no sense, and people not look. People are all throughout the country are constantly bringing this up and confronting Christians with this nonsensical problem that Christians don't want to hear, and they get offended and they get defensive, but they got to be confronted with it. So in the first hour I presented as we've been going through saw maybe three, I've been giving you these points that we believe in a God and whom we cannot see as we're surrounded by circumstances which we can see, which calls into question the existence of the God whom we can see. I've been given statements like that. Well in the first hour, I gave a brand new one. This one's on the long but you should try to write it down or at least remember it as much as possible. Everybody ready, nobody's going to like this. Don't share this with anyone outside of this church, or they will go, what is going on in your church? But the reason they're going to say that is because nobody in church has ever confronted with this reality. Everybody ready, As Christians, we pray to a God in whom we cannot see, to act in some way to help with circumstances we can see. All right, let me say that part again. As Christians, we pray to a God in whom we cannot see, to act

4:48 in some way to help with circumstances that we very much can see. Even though the God whom we are p to, at the very minimum, knew those circumstances would happen before he even created the world, and he allowed those circumstances to happen and did absolutely nothing to stop them. And at the very most, he decreed everything that happened, and he guided and directed them to happen. Right, everybody got that. As Christians, we pray to a God in whom we cannot see to act in some way to help with circumstances we can see. Even though the God we are praying to, right at a very minimum, knew those circumstances would happen before he created the world, and he allowed those circumstances to happen. And he did absolutely nothing. And at the very most, God did what he decreed them and guided and directed them to happen. Now, if you got the Trinity Hymnal. Everyone grabbed the Trinity Hymnal, the Trinity Hymnal and turned to page eight hundred and fifty.

6:27 We're going to go through this quickly. I'm not reviewing. Typically I would review a lot about PSAWMITI three, but this morning I don't have time to do that because morning will be afternoon before we know it, and then you'll want to go home, all right, So here we go, Chapter three, Paragraph one of the London or the Westminster Confession of Faith. It's the same as the London Baptist Confession of Faith. We read this very disturbing paragraph. All right, and everyone should be bothered by this anytime you read it? All right? Are you ready? Everybody there? Okay, all right, here we go, God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will freely. And what's that next word?

7:13 Everyone read it on their paper. Unchangeably or unchangeable? Right? Ordain? Next word, whatsoever comes to pass? God from all eternity unchangeably ordains whatsoever comes to pass God from all eternity, or dains whatsoever comes to past, and it is unchangeable. Do you see now the contradiction in prayer? What am I praying about? If God's will is unchangeable and if God ordains whatsoever comes to pass? Because whenever we pray about whatsoever comes to past, what do we inevitably pray for four for God to change whatsoever comes to past?

8:05 Well, if I'm praying for God to change whats whoever comes to past? Am I not asking him to change his unchangeable will? That seems kind of ridiculous, does it not? Not only that it means that there's a high probability that we have all spent most of our life doing what praying against God's will. You see the problem. Go to chapter five of the London or Westminster Confession of Faith. Paragraph one. This is on God's providence. Everybody see this. Here we go. Paragraph one. God, the great creator of all things, doth look at the things he does. Number one upholds, number two, directs, number three, disposes number four. Now look what he governs? Are you ready for? What? He governs? All creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, according to his infallible fore knowledge and the free And what's that next word, immutable, which means unchangeable right counsel of his own will. So whatsoever comes to pass, God is doing what with whatever comes to pass. He's upholding it, he's directing it, he's disposing it. He is governing the creatures involved, the actions involved, and

9:41 the things from the greatest even to the least. Is anybody getting just a little bit bothered at this point? I'm getting really bothered. Yeah, that's troubling, is it not? So? At the very least, whatever circumstance we see, we're like someone will say, hey, hey, please pray for this, and I'm okay, I'll pray for it. What do you want me to pray? Wow, I want God to do this and this and this. Well wait a minute, so we're gonna pray to the very God because they'll be like a horrible traffic accident. Hey, please pray for so and so. They were involved in a horrible traffic accident. So you want me to pray to the very God who knew before the foundations of the world that that traffic accident would occur and did absolutely nothing to stop it.

10:28 Or number two, you want me to pray to the God who not only knew it and did nothing to stop it, he decreed it, guided directed it according to his unchangeable will. So now, what do I want God to do? Why would I pray to that God to do something about that circumstance if he knew it and did nothing to stop it, because it would seem to imply that he wants that situation to have occurred. Do you see where that can raise some questions? Now, Christians don't like to talk about this in church, but trust me, over the last week or so, there's been lots of people raising these questions because of how Christians have acted over the assassination temp of Donald Trump and the prayers supposedly offered up, which and again people are like, that makes no sense. So you want me to pray for whom? Pray for Donald Trump? How about the guy that God didn't save, who died trying to save his family. His first name is Corey, even though nobody ever talks about him, he died. Well, God was supposedly saving Trump. He couldn't save Corey. See, Christians don't want to hear that, but the world's asking those questions. The fire that started at First Baptist First Baptist in Dallas, Texas and burnt the roof collapse of the historic sanctuary that was built in what eighteen ninety, Well they're like, oh, praise God for this, and we're praying for this and praying for what The guy who knew the fire was going to start did nothing to stop the fire, or even more, he did what decreed it and guided it. Do you understand why this can raise some questions? Well, plenty

12:01 in the world are raising the questions. And guess how church Christians respond. They get defensive, they get argumentative, they start yelling, well, you're just not a believer, or they make five hundred excuses that make absolutely no logical sense. So what we're doing is trying to understand then this question, because at the conclusion of that thing I've read out for you, as Christians, we pray to a God in whom we cannot see, to act in some way to help with circumstances we can see, even though the God we cannot see, at minimum knew the circumstances would happen before he even created the world, and allowed those circumstances to happen, and did absolutely nothing to stop them, and at the most God decreed them and guided and directed them.

12:43 Then here's what I put, What then are we praying for? What are we praying for? Or I think Robert stated this in the first hour, How then should we even pray? What are we praying for? How should we pray? So guess what we're doing in the first hour we have started. We're going through church history to see, well, how then should we pray? And how you pray should be guided by what? Okay, now I'm gonna state this again, how you pray should be guided by your theology, But inevitably, throughout two thousand years of church history, how we pray is typically guided by what our emotions and our feelings. Almost no one is ever consistent and their prayer life with their theology. Life. Prayer and theology are constantly in contradiction, constantly and contradiction. Okay, if you are in our manion right and you reject God's sovereignty of salvation, then why are you asking me to pray for someone's salvation? Because you always well, God, have God draw them or how God break? Why am I praying for their salvation? You believe what in the absolute libertarian free will? You believe in free will, so God can't do anything to their free will? Why am I even bothering to pray for someone's salvation? As a Calvinist, you may

14:15 say, well, we need to pray about this, so this, Why am I praying about? This? Says God decreed everything to come to pass and he governed it, and his will is unchangeable. Then what am I praying for? Meaning that our prayers should sound very different based off what our theology. So I am going through church history to see how people in church history have tried to address this, even though nobody in church ever talks about it. Because if we talked about this in church. You know what would happen if you go to a church that talks about these kinds of things, do you know what happens? It looks like this church people are not going to stick around for this. I would get fired in most churches by the end of this. In fact, most likely I would probably someone would stop me from preaching this in most churches because nobody I mean, I know how to get kicked off Christian radio because I've been kicked off Christian radio, so I know how to get in trouble with the Christian world. But that nobody wants to talk about it, Well, you can try to not talk about it. People all over the world are talking about it. There's all over the last couple of events that's happened. There are lots of people, well, where was God for this? And why did you want to pray?

15:28 To other? Very God? Who did that? And Christians don't have any other than just yell argue And it's just randomly quote scripture that they don't even have any idea how to even interpret. It's just it's just maddy. And you know why they can't handle it because their church doesn't want to deal with it. You know why their church doesn't want to deal with it because their pastor would be fired. But this is the ugly world of Christianity. And I've said it a million times. What is the most troubling verse in the entire Bible? In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. You know why it is most troubling verse in the Bible because I know everything that happened after He created the world. So when I get ready to read it and I say in the beginning, God, I'm like, stop right there, don't do the next thing, because as soon as you do the next thing, we all know how it's going to play out, including the one who did it. And nobody saying, well, Satan. Everyone wants to say, Satan, Satan? Satan? Who created Satan? Who knew he was gonna fall? Who could have destroyed him after he fell? Who could have kept him out of the garden after Adam and Eve fell? What could he have done? Killed Adam and Eve? He said, well, that would be mean, really killing two. How many people have died since Adam and Eve? In human history? How many people have died innumerable?

16:52 So wouldn't it have been better just to get rid of them because he told them if they ate, they would die. He would have been just simply doing what he said. That would be the end of it. And then we'd been They said, well, God needed He didn't need anyone, because if he needed someone, he wouldn't be God right, he wouldn't be perfect. So does any of that make sense? Okay? If anyone says it makes sense, you're lying. Now. See now, people who hear this online, they'll start getting defensive and they'll want you don't know what you're talking about. You just don't believe in God. You're an atheist. That's all. That's all Christians can do is accuse you of being an atheist. If being an atheist is asking hard questions, then sign me up. I'm an atheist. But Christians should be the ones asking the hard questions because we're the ones who supposedly read the Bible. Well, if you read Some eighty three, you know what the first question you should have had, Why are you bothering asking God to do something he'd a creed it happen? Oh? I know nobody asked that question when they read Some mayby three? Did they?

17:53 But they should have. So we're gonna try to figure out how this should work. So in the first hour we started, I went through church history and we started with the Reformation. And the reason we went to the Reformation is obvious. What hymn book are we using in our church, the Trinity Hymnal. What confession of faith is at the end of that? The Westminster what's our confession of faith for this church, London Baptist. So because our confession is Calvinistic, because it believes in the sovereignty of God, I wanted to go to the Reformation to see how did those in the Reformation try to handle this problem. You're not going to like their solution, all right. The first hour we talked about it. I'm going to go through it quickly, all right? Are you ready? The Reform perspective before they pray, before prayer, Like if someone said, hey, I need you to pray about this situation, you start your prayer before you say a word by acknowledging this. Are you ready? This is what a Calvinist would acknowledge before they pray. God has decreed all events, including tragedy, for his purpose.

19:02 That's where you start with. Now that's gonna be all right. Do you see how difficult that may be to pray. So Sarah gets home, something bad happens, she said. She calls me and says, hey, I need you to pray about this situation. Okay, just now. I wouldn't say it to her, but in my mind, what I'm not gonna think? Okay, well God decreed that to happen. God, God had it and directed it through his providence. All right, but I'll pray about it. I don't know exactly how what you want me to pray, but I'll pray about I'm not gonna say that to her. I'll be like, I'll pray, but I'm gonna be when I hang up, I'm gonna be like, so what do I do here? She wants me, obviously, to pray to do what to change it? But I'm starting off with the premise that God decreed it. So why would I pray God to change that which he decreed? Does your brain start hurting? So? What is the purpose of prayer? From the reformed perspective? All right? Are you ready?

20:08 In the reformed perspective, prayer serves primarily as a means for believers to align themselves with God's sovereign will. Calvinists believe that God's will is immutable and that his plan is perfect and comprehensive. Therefore, prayer is not a way to change God's mind or alter his plans. So from a Calvinistic perspective, what are you not doing? You don't pray for God to change or alter anything.

20:48 You're praying so that you can do what submit to His will. You are in prayer acknowledging his sovereignty, and you're submitting two SAIDs sovereignty. And you may express your pain and frustration because you can. And Saw eighty three, it's a lament. If we understand Psalm eighty three is a lament, then what does a lament do? What does a lament do? Express his emotion? So Saw maighty three of the Saumus is expressing the emotions and the desires of the people. You can express your emotion in prayer. You can express your desire in prayer. But ultimately what you are saying is God. Then I know your sovereign, I know you have decreed this to happen.

21:30 I know you're guiding it in your providence, and I simply come to you to do what to express that I don't like what you're doing. I'm bothered by what you're doing. I want you to change what you're doing. But ultimately I know that your will is unchangeable, and so I submit to your will because it's not my will, but your will be done. Basically, that's what you're doing in prayer. Now, you don't like that, do you? If you want if someone to pray for you, you want God to do what change? That's why you go find fifteen people to pray, right? Why do people say, oh, call this person and call this person because you want fifteen people to gather. Because what do we always say?

22:11 Most probably every church you've ever been to, prayer changes things because that's what we want to happen. But the reality is it should be not me praying for you. You should be praying for you yourself, saying God, I acknowledge that you're supreme, You're a sovereign. Your will is unchangeable. I submit to your will. But Lord, here's my emotions about it. I hate it. I don't like it. It's garbage, it's trash. I don't like anything about it. But ultimately I will submit to it. That's the calvinistic perspective. It's not to change it. So I didn't know what to do with that. I was like, well, what is a prayer sound like? What is a prayer sound like that? So I asked Ai to write a prayer because I'm like, hey, I can't find any human examples of pray like this, because I don't think anyone actually prays like this? Can I? And I knew AI would have a A would be somewhat successful. You know why I thought AI would be successful because it could pray theiologically and not pray emotionally. So guess you want to hear AI pray?

23:25 Right? I could have recorded the audio of it, but here is the text of it. Right, Heavenly Father, we come before you and our time of sorrow and distress. Acknowledging your sovereign hand over all things. We confess that we do not fully understand the reasons for the pain and suffering we are experiencing, but we trust in your perfect wisdom and goodness. Lord. We ask for your comfort and strength in the midst of our trials. Help us find peace and the knowledge that you are in control and that nothing happens outside of your divine will. Grant us the grace to an or this hardship with faith, knowing that you will work all things for the good to those who love you and are called according to your purpose. Father, we pray that you would use this time of suffering to draw us closer to you, to deepen our dependence on your provision, and to refine our character to be more like Christ. Help us see your hand at work even in our pain, and to trust that you are accomplishing your purpose in us and through us. We also ask that you would be glorified through our response to this tragedy. May our faith and hope in you be a testimony to others of your unchanging love and faithfulness. Use our suffering to bring others to a saving knowledge of Christ. And all things we submit to your will, knowing that you are a loving, a compassionate God who is always with us. We pray this in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Amen.

24:48 That's a really good prayer, very theologically sound. And what does that prayer not one time ask God to do change anything? Now, that's not the prayer we want now. Ai wrote that prayer for what purpose? To correspond to a thiological perspective. I told which theological perspective to write the prayer from, and it wrote the prayer, and the prayer never asked God to change anything. We don't pray that way. This is what AI told me. This prayer reflects the Reformed emphasis on God's sovereignty, the purpose of suffering in the believer's life, and the ultimate aim of glorifying God through all circumstances.

25:34 Now, that is the way we should pray. So in the reformed world and the reformed mind. If you hold to that form of theology, then what is the purpose of prayer? To submit to God's will, to align yourself with God's well and the reform world? Is what is prayer not? For it's not about asking God to change anything. Now you go tell your Christian friends that they will, they will lose their mind on you. But I'm sorry now, because what's the ultimate question then, is God's will changeable or unchangeable? And if God and what is God's will? Whatsoever comes to past? If you say that God's will is unchangeable, and if you say God's will is whatsoever comes the past, You've got problems, do you know? I? All right, there's the reform perspective. We covered that in the first hour. I know, we just spent a lot of time covering it again, but that's okay, all right. Now that brings us to the next perspective. What is the next perspective, the Armenian perspective, The Armenian perspective? All right, okay, Now, when for a Calvinist you start off with what is your foundational truth? You start off with before you ever utter a prayer, God's sovereignty and him decreeing everything that comes to

27:07 pass. What is the Armenian's foundational principle when they start, before they start to pray, they would call it God's permissive will, God's permissive will, and this is where God allows human free will and natural processes to play out, which can result in suffering. So they would say, God has his like ultimate will, but then he has a permissive will. So you can start, Oh, so this suffering is a God a part of God's permissive will. Now, obviously, what's the kind of the idea that it's the permissive will? It almost inevitably carries the concept that what it can be changed?

27:59 Okay, or now you got to be careful here, say now to me, there's a logical gap. There's a logical problem here, right, because if I connect it with God's will and say it can be changed, then that seems to call into question the unchangeability or immutability of God's will. Right, But they kind of give this separate category, what's the permissive will so it can be changed? I wouldn't really call that then God's will of any kind, right, I would say this would be like, well, God has his ultimate plan, here's his ultimate plan, and then he allows all of this to happen freely. He doesn't really get involved. And if he doesn't get involved, this would seem to infer there's no point in praying for it because God's not involved in it. Well, if he goes against his will, then obviously he would not. He's not gonna change it anyway.

28:56 But I'm just saying like, if you say, well, God just allows all all of this to happen freely, well, then that means God is not what guiding or directing it. Well, if God is not guiding and directing it, if I pray for him to get involved, then he's not freely allowing it to occur. Right, It's not freely In other words, the minute you bring God into it, then it's not God just simply freely allowing things to freely play out. He's now involved in So God couldn't by definition he couldn't get involved in it. Does that make sense? They say, this is his permissive will and he just allows natural processes and man's free will to work freely, Well, then God can never get involved in it. So there'd be no point in praying for God to do anything because he can't. This logically begins to fall apart. Does everyone understand what I'm saying? Right? If God is say, okay, look all of that, that's my permissive will and I just let it freely play out, well, then I can't come to God and tell him to get involved because a minute he gets involved, it's not freely taking place. He's now involved in, guiding, directing, or changing. And not only that. If it's if you say it's his whip or will of any kind, but God can change his will, then that destroys the immutability of God. So either way you run into logical problems. Do you say, what this one kind of falls apart? So, but so, what is the purpose of prayer?

30:22 From the Armenian perspective, prayer is away for believers to seek God's intervention, guidance and comfort. So in the Armenian perspective, what are you asking God to do to literally intervene? Well, yeah, well if he intervenes, then he's not freely letting it happen, right, And how does how do I have God? Like? If God intervenes, is he not then impacting someone's free will? Like if you say, well, I was praying for Donald Trump and God and he stepped in and stopped him from being killed, Well he stopped he stopped someone's free will, right, because someone wanted Trump to die, and you took away that man's right to have his will accomplished and you had the man killed. Well, that doesn't seem very good.

31:18 Or you just have to say God did what he did nothing? Well, if he did nothing in order to maintain the freedom, well then there's no point of praying for God to do anything. You see, and either you want God to act in a sovereign way, but then you don't want to believe in God, like you either have to accept his sovereignty or you have to reject his sovereignty. If you reject his sovereignty, then all of this is happening and God. They say, well, God is sovereign, he's just choosing not to get involved. Then you can't pray for him to get involved. This one has a major logical issues with it. All right, oh, they go on, uh, this is uh. Jacobus Arminius emphasize that prayer can change outcomes and that God, in his foreknowledge, responds to human needs and petitions. So, according to Arminius, what can God prayer can actually do? What change things? Now? What is it changing?

32:19 So that what's the question, what is it changing? So by this, if it's changing something, then you're you're what are you clearly denying God's eternal decree? Because God's eternal decree is unchangeable, you're clearly if it can be changed, you are clearly denying God's providence and guiding directing. So then God is not involved. All right? Okay, great, in some ways that makes it sound better, right, Okay, God's not involved. So things are happening, this is happening, this is happening. I can go through my life. Okay, I was beaten with an electric cord, burn with a curling iron, all the horrible things that happened to me. But God didn't have anything to do with it all? Right, In some ways that's good. I feel that that's a little us here to handle, right, But don't tell me then God can intervene. Because if God can intervene, then what would be the question why when I was why would when I spent the night at First Baptist Church Tuscola begging that my mom wouldn't die as a young person, why did she die? Well, wasn't God's will? Oh so it wasn't God's will that my mom didn't live, but everyone else's mom lived? Well? What was up with that trash? And if God, if prayer can change things, why couldn't my prayer change God? Andevitably, what does this almost always lead to Your prayer didn't change God because you didn't

33:54 either have enough faith or you didn't pray right. Somehow it comes down almost the blame come on you? Now? That makes some people feel better, right, because who gets off the hook? God? God's off the hook? Who makes me feel better? Well, until it's you that's getting blamed. Now, I'm not saying dr Mini in you always leads to that, but there's got to be some explanation, right, Either God can get involved or he can't get involved. Well, on one hand, you say, well, he's not involved in any of this, it's his permissive will. Well, then God. If God and his permissive will just allows it to happen and it's freely operating, then the minute he gets in, he destroys the entire system because now God just inevitably changed everything. He changes one thing, he changes everything. What would my life have looked like if my mom would have survived. I don't know what my life would have looked like my mom would have survived, because remember I was what three days three days that I was supposed to go to the house and have dinner with her to see if there could be any reconciliation. I there was never any reconciliation. And if she wouldn't have died, I probably wouldn't have tried to kill myself and spend eight weeks in a psychiatric hospital. What would my life would have looked like if I didn't spend eight weeks in a psychiatric I have no idea.

35:14 If Texas Instruments didn't close down and move away and all the things that happened with me at Texas Instruments, I probably would never would have joined the military. So if I let God saved my job, if we would have saved my job, I would have never been in the military. Well, if I never been in the military, I would have never had the situation with anthrax which almost killed me. Then now gives me neurological problems and a seizure disorder. But if God wouldn't have given me that, I probably would have been deployed and I'd have been able to be a pastor during this. So like I, with one intervention would change everything. So then can God is God? Then you can't. Then once God changes one thing, then in a sense God has then guiding and directing everything. So this one kind of falls apart. But I didn't ask Ai to write a prayer from an Armenian prayer because you know our mini and prayers, because you've all been praying like an Armenian your entire Christian life. Because you pray for what God? Do this? God? Change this God? Do this? God? Change this God? Do this God? Change this God? Do this God? Do this? Do this? Do this. Whenever you ask for a prayer, you want God to do something. And I understand why you want God to do something. I understand it I got, I can, I can.

36:30 I could give you my prayer list right now, the things I want God to change for me, right, I mean, don't you have your list now? The reform way, I'm supposed to simply say your will be done. Now you do what now. I didn't go into this in the second hour, but just do know the calvinistic one can be very troubling as well. Just make sure it's got its own problems, right, because in the Holtvinistic way, you're like, well, God's will is whatever comes to pass. It's unchangeable. So my child is sick, well I'm not going to get medical attention because it's God's will that they're sick, and so I'll just trust God. Well, trust me. That's happened way too many times in history and kids have died as a result of it. So that one's got its own major implications. Does everybody understand that that's got major problems now?

37:24 In the armeny and it would make perfect sense. Will natural processes happened, the child gets sick, I pray for God to do something, and then I do whatever I need to do to get the kid better, because this is a part of God's permissive will. He may not even be involved in the situation, but I'm going to ask him to get involved. The problem is asking God to get involved. Is where now the armeny inside falls apart, right, Because I can't really ask God to get involved because if God gets involved, then it's not natural processes. He's involved now, it's being supernaturally driven. Does that make sense, right? What's the third view? Open theism? The Dazzlers can tell you all about open theism because they had an elder at their church start teaching open theism who is then removed or kind of excommunicated, and then the next week he went to another church to teach open theism, so and he's an oultar there. So you see a church discipline really is a waste of time. But that's a whole different subject.

38:25 Okay, what is open theism? Well, basically God is in a dynamic relationship with his creation and the future is not fully determined and open theism God basically doesn't know everything that's going to happen, and he is not sovereignly declaring everything to happen. There's an openness in God, I think is the way they like to use the phrase an openness. In God, he doesn't know all things. He's not determining all things, he's not decreeing all things all right. Now, in open theism, you start off with God as in a dynamic relationship with his creation, and the future is not fully determined.

39:15 So in open theism, if someone comes to me with prayer, I start off with going, well, the future is not determined, so let's go to God, right, And so what is the purpose of prayer and open theism. It is a genuine interaction with God who can and that God can be moved by human petitions and can respond to bring about different outcomes. They can bring about a different outcome because the outcome is not already determined, and it's not only is it not determined, it's not known. Now why is that critical? Well, in there are many in view. They may believe God knows it, right, But here's the thing. If God knows what's going to happen prior to it happening, what then must happen what he knows, which means it's predetermined. The Armenians play this weird game where that well, he knows it, but then it could work this way. That makes no sense. That's where open theism ultimately arises. It's like, well, God can't know it, because if he knows it, it has to happen.

40:20 It's already predetermined. God's knowledge can't change. But if he doesn't know, then there's real possibility for what really a different outcome. The only problem is that kind of so we have a God who what it doesn't know. It's not all knowing and and so right, he's not soffering, but you can see why some people want open theism. That makes a lot more sense. Right, that's a real conversation like that would make prayer a much more a very real conversation, would it not, Hey, because I'm talking to God who doesn't know, and he's like, oh, this is happening, and I'm kin leading yes, And then all I have to do is convince God, Hey, God, here's the reason you need to do so.

41:06 And then God will be like, you know what, let's do that because he doesn't know the future. So it's like a real conversation with someone, but you're almost talking to someone who's very much on your level, which is kind of problematic, right, yes, all right, all right. One example of this kind of view would teach that God's knowledge of potential decisions includes knowing how believers prayers fit into his overall plan, but he doesn't really know a lot in that particular. Oh, I'm sorry. The example an open theist, I'm sorry, I'm reading a different view. They would prayer that prayer is a powerful means of influencing the future and experiencing God's empathy and partnership.

41:50 So in the open theistic way, basically, prayers a way to change things. Prayers a way to change things. So in the our many in view, prayers a way to change things. In the open view, clearly as a way to change things. The Calvinistic view, prayer doesn't change anything. Nobody likes to hear that. All right, So what have we got so far? We got reformed Armenian open theism. What's next? I'll spell it. I'll see who who has ever heard of this? You're ready? M O L I N I S T. Molinist the Molinist perspective. How many are familiar with the Molinist perspective? Okay, all right, think of Molinist perspective. Some we refer to this as middle knowledge. God knows all possible outcomes based on human free will. So God knows all the possible outcomes, but based on human free will. So your will is free and God kind of knows all the possible outcomes that could play out. That's kind of where you start, all right, Now, Prayer in this case aligns believers

43:21 with God's will and can be a part of God's plan based on his middle knowledge of how free agents would act. So you're kind of aligning yourself with God's will and you but you can and trying to make yourself a part of God's plan, and He's gonna do so based on how he know and how he knows how free agents from people who are free will act. It's very it's very almost in some ways that doesn't really help anything, right, Okay, So God knows all the possible outcomes, and then I pray, and then God's gonna work somehow based on all of his knowledge of all the possible outcomes. But it almost kind of carries the idea that God is gonna kind of look and see what all the possible outcomes are and then choose the best possible outcome somehow based on your prayers. That's all. I don't I don't know. There's probably a reason this one was created. I'm just having a hard time trying to understand what this really solves. Does this make sense all?

44:20 Right? This is basically teaches that God's knowledge of potential decisions includes knowing how believers prayers fit into his overall plan. So it's like, well, God just knows everything, and then he's I guess he's just gonna choose based on him knowing all the possible outcomes, which outcome, I guess you're praying for that. I don't even know what to do. I don't even have enough argument to argue against it, right, I should have asked AI to write a Molinist prayer, but I didn't. I will have to do that to see if even it, because I would like to know what it sounds like. But I think it's clearly gonna go with the idea ultimately of doing what trying to to have God choose the best possible outcome based on him knowing all the best possible outcomes. So it's still trying to get God to change something. So ultimately, when every system seeks what to change God except for the reformed, even though reform people ask God to change things all the time, which means they're not really reformed. If I say that, people will get mad. All right, Okay, here's some tensions that we will have to address quickly. I'm just going to go through these quickly. You don't have to write any of this down. The problem of suffering in God's role in it is a profound mystery. Many theologians acknowledge that human understanding is limited, and that faith involves trusting God's wisdom and goodness despite not fully comprehending his ways. I think we can clearly dogmatically assert that when it comes to God,

45:53 what can we just assume we don't understand? Just go ahead and write that down dogmatically. I don't understand. I don't understand why I'm supposed to pray to the very God who decreed something to happen and cause something to happen, or at the very least, did nothing to stop it from happening. Why would I come to that God now to do anything like? I will never understand. That makes absolutely no sense. But with the Bible itself says God's ways are not our ways, and his thoughts and our thoughts, it makes absolutely no sense to me, makes absolutely no sense to me. In fact, it really kind of If I'm just being honest, it ticks me off. Why would I pray to a God to help me and my abuse when he's the one who decreed my abuse is the way he didn't decree it.

46:42 Well, you can try to get him the whole secondary cause thing, but then the minute you say God didn't decree this or God didn't decree that, then then God's not in charge. So then you begin and inevitably it falls apart. And I understand this leads to it. The reform view leads to a really big one that we nobody wants to address. Right, if God decrees, all things come to pass. I know that how we reform people try to get around it. But then what about your sin and my sin? Well, did he know my sin was going to take place? Yes? Does he do anything to stop it? Well, we know even from the Bible, there's times he does nothing. Like there are situations where God seems to step in in David's life. You have clear times where God seems to intervene. When God when David walked up and lied to the priest, it's like, hey, I'm on a mission from God, right, And he straight up lied and they gave him provision, and then the king comes in. They're like, you lied to me. What does the king do? Kill eighty of the priests and then puts the entire town to sword, meaning man, women and children, children died because David lied and God didn't intervene at all. And the very story where God intervened with David to kill Goliath, but he couldn't intervene to save a city from being slaughtered.

48:04 When David numbered the people, how many people died seventy thousand? Oh, when David had a woman's husband killed, does God step in? No? Forget stopping David from committing adultery. He could have stopped that just like that. I mean, anything could have happened. No, he now he lets him commit adultery. He lets David kill the husband, and David gets the woman. Oh and other women because you know he's a Oh, and the baby dies. Well, all throughout that story of David, isn't God stepping in here or God revealing this, or God doing this or God doing this?

48:55 But no, in that case, it's just no big deal. God could intervene and part the Red Sea. But when Moses gets ready to strike the rock, God couldn't just say, don't strike the rock. But he strikes the rock, and then what happens to Moses? I'm sorry, you don't get to go to the Promised Land. I've intervened a million different ways, but h hey, hey, did he not speak directly to Moses? He couldn't spoke directly to Moses right when he lifted up and he went stop? Okay, no, does that not bother you? Like? That's trash?

49:37 Okay, that's not they got. You can step in and all of these situations, but you can't step in to stop sin. Oh well, sometimes he can, because when Sarah was handed over, what did he do both times intervene to stop Sarah from being defiled or used? Oh? He didn't step in to help Hagar? Did he? Oh? God can send angels in to Sodom, But when Lot's daughters are getting him drunk to commit incest, I don't know. God couldn't step in and go. I think maybe this is not a good idea utterly maddening, is it not? Like the more you read the bibble warmark, I don't understand. So can we just dogmatically assert when it comes to all of this, we don't understand.

50:35 And you know what we don't do when we don't understand. We don't go with these foolish, silly I'll try to be nice, ignorant, dumb church answers that seems to make all the church people so happy and comfortable. Where their a little fake religion. I don't want a Hallmark religion. I don't want a Disney religion. If you want that, there's plenty of churches sell you that trash. But guess what they're not selling you, not anything dealing with reality. Reality is ugly? Is it not ugly? Again? If you don't believe me, look up the numbers of how many children have been sexually molested inside churches since nineteen seventy you'll probably throw up. I mean again, the situation. Everyone's talking about it. In Dallas, Robert Morris came out, you know, sexual in morality. I'm like, oh no, that's bad. Sexual morality with a twelve year old, that's really bad.

51:36 Where was God? I'm not excusing his sin, everybody understand It bothers me that God wouldn't stop him from sinning. Really bothers me that God wouldn't stop the twelve year old from being abused. So then the question is what's the purpose of prayer? Well, if we go from the reform perspective, it's simply to do what to align ourselves with God's will. I don't necessarily understand it in a sense. Reform view sees prayer as aligning with God's sovereign plan and finding comfort in his purpose. Our Minianism used prayer as a means of seeking God's compassionate intervention. Open Theism emphasizes the dynamic and empathetic relationship between God and believers, and Molanism incorporates prayer into God's wise governance based on his middle knowledge. I don't have any other answers other than that. I mean, we could get into how I could go through the history of how Christians have tried to understand God's you know, his eternal decrees and his providence, and in some place we'll track that down. It's very difficult. I don't have any easy answer. Or is that? Can everyone say amen, it's uncomfortable?

53:04 Yeah? Amen? Can we say that this is what we want to hear. But you know why we have to be the ones to face it is because we're the ones running around shoving in everyone's place. God exists, and if you don't believe, you'll burn a hell. Well, if we're gonna be yelling that, I think we we have to have some willingness to do what we got to confront the consequences of believing in a god. The minutes you say you believe Genesis one to one, all of these problems are your problems. They're not the problems of the atheist or the agnostic. They're the person sitting in the pew. You're telling that atheist there is a God who created the heavens and the earth, who's all powerful, all knowing, and who will put you in hell. Well, then I got questions.

53:49 If God can put people in hell, then God should be able to do something here to fix the hell that exists on earth. And guess what, that's a reasonable question to ask, is it not? And what's the answer? Come on, what's the answer? We don't know. That's the only answer I've got. And this carries out everything I said about psaw eighty three. Saw many three is another example of people who live who believe in a god in whom they cannot see, confronted by realities that we very much can see. That calls into question the God in whom we cannot see. All of the things we've talked about is inevitable with that, But we have to deal with this reality. When you come to me and say pray, you're asking me to pray to the very God that, at the very minimum did what knew what happened and allowed it to happen. And at the very most he decreed it, guided it, directed it, and his will is immutable.

55:08 So the best prayer that we can pray is a prayer that comes from artificial intelligence. And why can artificial intelligence pray so well no emotion? Like I can read that prayer from AI and go, man, you're you pray so good, but you're a piece of garbage because if you had ever suffered, you would never be able to pray that way. Now I can pray that way. If Sarah is facing some horrible calamity, I can pray, Dear Lord, let Sarah accept his sorry, like I can pray. I won't pray that prayer in front of her because she'd slap me in the face and go, what's your problem? I need I need something to happen, and that would make sense, right, But in private, I can just be like, well, okay, you decreted, you're sovereign. I don't know what else to do. I don't know why those really she wants me to say to you right now, but other than your will be done.

56:05 And it's a very quick prayer. I don't like it, you don't like nobody likes it? Right? Can we all agree? But those are the ways now, so you say, so, which way do you think is the best way to approach it? I look, I can't go with open theism. Mollinism makes no sense, and the Armenian view really doesn't make any sense either if you just think about it. Because the minute I ask God to get involved. If this is if I was going to go with the Armenian view, this is the view I would go with. God created the world and he has an ultimate plan, right I knew heaven, new Earth. He's going to make all things right. And then in the meantime salvation has been offered by Christ. But everything else that takes place, God has decided to do. What Now if I go with that view, then what's the point of praying? There's no point because because God's not doing anything.

57:00 Hey God, I can tell God what's going on. I can convoice my complaint, but God, You're not gonna get involved because the minute he gets involved, the armeni in you begins to fall apart. Right, if God's getting involved, if he changes one thing, what happens. I mean, if you've ever watched movies about time travel or anything like that, they constantly always demonstrate this, Right, if you go back and change one thing, So then I can't get God involved in any way, shape or form. So in some ways I almost feel more comfortable with just saying, Okay, I know there's a God, I know salvation is real, but as far as what he's doing now. But then at the same time, I have trouble with that because God intervened a million times in the pages of this so then I have to believe God is intervening. All right, Well then now, so what do I do? If God is intervening? Then the only place I can find, and I'm not saying it brings comfort, is just somehow God is sovereignly controlling, guiding and directing, and I don't understand it.

58:04 So you say, well, what do you do when you face the circumstance? Well, trust God as sovereign submit to it, say your will, not my will, be done right A voice my pleasure, displeasure, my frustration, my aggravation, my anger. Because we see that interesting when you read job. Job never really asks God to change anything. He just voices his displeasure and confusion to God. Joseph, we never seem to find him praying for God to change his circumstances. But they both acknowledge God is involved in the circumstances, and yet they continue to act in the midst of those circumstances. Right, So my thing is, I'm going to trust God as sovereign. I'm going to submit to his will. But then as I'm living out my life, I'm going to act and do according to what I think is best as long as I'm not violating scripture. I'm going to act and then believe this somehow all of that will work in accordance with God's will and how the two works together. Guess what I end up with. I don't have any clue, but I know that ultimately what will be done God's will. Now does that kind of bother me? Say? It kind of bothers me because I'm like God, if you're sovereign and you're guiding and controlling and directing. Could you just stop me from sinning ever again? Wouldn't it be great? All right? I wish I had better answers, But the

59:36 world's talking about it, okay, Bill Maher on his Real Time with Bill Maher. I mean he went off on Christians about all of this. I mean, here's some strong language. He went off on Christians about how utterly foolish we are in regards to this and other people even on the Christian Post even comments have been about the assassination of Donald Trump and the fire at First Baptist in Dallas. Many of them have it out. You Christians say the dumbest things. God, this God, this God, that your God is the one allow it all to happen and did nothing to stop it. Now you want me to pray to that very same God, Well, guess what. If the world can raise those questions, then guess who should be at the forefront of addressing those questions? The Church? And guess what. We don't address those questions by just simply dismissing them as saying they're unbelievers, so they're dumb, because in many cases they're smarter than we are. Because they can see the problem, where in many cases we can't see the problem because in some cases Christianity is the very thing that will actually stop the brain from working, which it should never be the case. If we're Christians, we should believe the brain should be working over time, because we believe God gave us a brain and we should be good stewards of it. So well, in there, well, God, we come before you this afternoon. Lord.

1:01:00 All we can acknowledge, probably after two hours, is that you're God. We are not. And we don't understand. And we asked this in Jesus name, and God's people said