New Reformation: Reject The Trinity

0:02 Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is the Theology Central podcast, making Theology Central, ladies and gentlemen. I had such an easy plan. It was simple. I was going to simply walk up the steps to the studio, come around here to this chair, sit down, hit the button to start the live stream, and tell everyone, Hey, yesterday at Victory Baptist Church, we were discussing Isaiah chapter forty two, and we came up with a completely unique way of interpreting Isaiah forty two that would probably put us outside of the majority of everything. Nobody's going to agree, and we need to talk a little bit about this.

0:50 I'm going to I'm going to talk to you about how artificial intelligence analyzed and critiqued my interpretation, our interpretation of Isaiah forty two. Because it was kind of a it was a collaborative thing. Someone in the congregation actually came up with the idea and how to interpret Isaiah forty two this way, and then I took it and ran with it. So that's what I wanted to do. I wanted to talk about Isaiah forty two and talk about this new way of interpreting Isaiah forty two and what AI had to say about it, and just kind of add more to that discussion. However, I made a bad mistake. I made a fatal mistake when I walked up the stairs to the studio and sat down instead of just immediately turning on the microphone, hitting the button to start the live stream and say, ladies and gentlemen, we're going to talk about Isaiah forty two. I opened up a Christian website. I opened up a Christian website, and I was immediately slapped in the face with this headline, most American Christians don't believe in the Trinity. Most American Christians don't believe in the Trinity. And I'm like, WHOA, what is going on here? What is happening? Because I'm already confused. If you reject the Trinity, can you be considered a Christian because you're then believing in a completely

2:21 different God. Either God is a trinity or God is not. Either there is one God coexisting three distinct persons who are coequal and co eternal, right, or if you reject the trinity, then you have a God that is not a trinitarian God. To state it that way, well, then is that the same God? So can you even be considered a Christian? What is going on? So I read the article, and within about three minutes of reading the article, I was no longer worried about most American Christians, no longer believing in the Trinity. I was then concerned with, wait a minute, this article is pointing out what I have been screaming about for twenty five years. Oh, I've got to talk about it. So that's what we're going to be talking about. I guess we're experiencing a new reformation, and this new reformation is reject the Trinity and accept Well, I'm going to tell you about it right after I say good morning everyone. It is Monday, March the thirty first, twenty twenty five. It is currently eleven forty one am Central time, and I'm coming to you live from the Theology Central Studio located right here in Abilene, Texas. So are you ready to discuss this? Are you ready to hear what's going on? First, if you want the article that has sparked this discussion, you can go to the

3:51 Christianpost dot com. Look for the headline most American Christians don't believe in the Trinity survey right, So you can check that out. I know immediately some people say, well, I don't believe this, or I don't believe the statistics, or I don't believe that. I don't like the way they did that. Everyone typically will explain away when surveys say really negative things about Christianity, surveys will people will always say, I don't believe the surveys, I don't accept the way they ask the questions. And look, I'm not saying that there aren't valid concerns with surveys, and I'm not saying it's not right to question surveys. But sometimes I get kind of a little tired of that because if any survey or if any study seems to show anything negative about Christianity, Christians just want to immediately want to immediately reject it. And I think, look, we may not agree completely with the surveys or completely agree with the methodology, but I think it's always important for us to stop and go, wait, what is going on here?

4:52 We should at least be a little bit concerned. And when I see if anything is indicating that most Christians are now rejecting the Trinity, then should be extremely concerned. And I will argue that what I have seen throughout my Christian life, listening to sermon after sermon after sermon after sermon after sermon after sermon, and even talking to professing Christians, I will argue that practically speaking, functionally speaking, most Christians do reject the Trinity, and they reject the Trinity in many cases simply because they don't even know what the proper definition of the Trinity is a lot of times Christians will define the Trinity as one God who manifests himself in three different ways. Well, that's not trinitarian doctrine theology. That's modalism, that's Abelianism, that's an actual ancient heresy. I mean, I've told the story a thousand times, but I tell it again. I finally become a pastor.

5:49 It's my first church, the middle of nowhere, Texas. I preach that Sunday morning. It's Sunday night of my first Sunday being a pastor. I stand behind the pulpit. Well, it wasn't even really a pulpit at that time, Okay, but this broken down building in the middle of nowhere, Texas, and I ask everyone, define the Trinity. Here's my new congregation. Everyone in the church tries to answer, and they all give me absolute heretical definition of their not a heretical definition of the Trinity. Not one person gets it right, not one person. These are all people who've been going to church for ten fifteen years, and it's all like one God manifesting himself or revealing himself. And I'm like, what are you talking about? No, it's and now at that point I didn't say anything. I just kind of like, Okay, I just remember getting in the car driving home, going what has happened? I have a church filled with people who functionally, practically speaking, are complete heretics. They believe in sibelia, they believe in modalism. They don't even know how to define the Trinity. And they've been going to church for fifteen, twenty twenty five years. What do I do? And I was like, this is a mess. So I made it a let's just say for the next five years, I think I talked. I talked about the Trinity every Sunday

7:19 for five years. How do we define the Trinity? I think every kid at that time could tell you give you a philologically sound definition of the Trinity. It's not one God manifesting himself in three different ways. It's one God, coexisting, co eternal, three distinct persons, all right, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Over and over and over we would go. We would try to get this right. And I did a discussion about the ancient heresies related to the Trinity. But it was it was crazy. And then years later, years later, I had someone who was attending classes at Dallas Theological Seminary and for one of their class projects, they had to contact pastors in the local area and to get their definition of the Trinity. And guess what they got. Almost everyone got it wrong. These are pastors in the local area. Guess who got it right.

8:11 The only one who got it right the Catholic priest. The Catholic priest got it right. And when the Catholic priest was kind of told that all the Protestant pastors got it wrong, he basically just laughed and was like, well, I'm not surprised, and I'm like, that's embarrassing. That is absolutely embarrassing. So and then I can tell you about local churches that when they start talking about the Trinity once again almost falls into this modalistic Sibelianism type way of understanding the Trinity. I have emailed them and say, guys, this is just this is wrong. Every single time I am ignored, they will not even respond to my email.

8:54 They just ignore me. They don't care. They just don't care. And nobody in the Pew seems to care. So even if even if Christians say they believe in the Trinity, almost inevitably when they define it, they show that they don't even understand it. So then if they don't even functionally understand it, that means they don't functionally even understand God, which is I don't even know what does it even mean? Yeah, I just I don't even know. So I saw so the article. You can find it at the Christianpost dot com. And so what we're gonna do is we're gonna try to break this down. So here's what we're gonna do. I think we're gonna dive into something here that I believe, in my opinion, should stop, should bother, should concern every single Christian in some ways, it should at least stop every Christian in their tracks. Because we have this brand new survey and the numbers, I believe, or at least look, maybe we want to classify these numbers as staggering. Maybe when we want to classify these numbers as troubling. I think they these numbers are at least revealing something because one of the things that survey, this new survey that's out is revealing is that most American Christians no longer believe in the Trinity. But maybe what's even more concerning is possibly the why. See to me, the trinity issue has been going on for thirty years. For thirty years, you can just talk to it. Oh, you go to church, you've been, you're a Christian, Okay, define the Trinity. Explain

10:26 the Trinity. To me, almost inevitably, it's just a total train wreck. When they try, they don't functionally understand what even the Trinity is. They don't even understand it, and then pastors give them these ridiculous illustrations to try to understand the Trinity that almost leads to modalism and Sabelianism versus an actual Trinitarian understanding. So, to me, what's more disturbing is not the trinity issue, is the possible reason why. It turns out that for many Christians, the loudest voice shaping their theology are no longer pastors. It's no longer the Bible it's no longer even teachers, Bible teachers, or even scripture itself. What Christians are listening to and turning to is something other than sermons, other than Bible teaching, other than lectures on theology, other than the Bible itself.

11:26 And I've been mentioning this forever, and we will talk about it in greater detail. So I'm not gonna name the names right now, but we will. We will name the names. What this survey because what the survey revealed. I was just completely shocked by this. So what does this all mean for the church. What does it say about the depth or the drift of modern Christianity? What is it going to tell us about the church? What does it say about this drift of modern Christianity? Now I have been saying it for a very long time on this podcast that to me, if you look at all the money that goes into keeping churches open and for them to function, and what people are actually getting from those churches, it's a waste of money. The churches take all of this money to stay open and what the people are actually provided. Look if churches, if it costs all of this money to keep churches open, and now what we are discovering is that functionally, if not just absolutely, from an even a philological perspective, Christians no longer even believe in the Trinity. Then all that money to keep those churches open was a waste of money.

12:36 At the very least, a church cannot turn out people who believe in the Trinity, then I don't even know what are you. You're just throwing money. You're just walking to a pit, throwing money in the pit and then pouring gasoline on it and throwing on fire. You're just throwing money away. And I already believe that most of the money that goes to keep churches, and when we've talked about the statistics how much it costs to keep a church open on average, and how much of that money goes to everything other than actual teaching and discipleship material, goes to all kinds of administrative costs and salaries and all, and then you look at the amount of teaching actually provided by churches. It's a waste of money. What it takes, what it takes, and I mean this, what it takes to keep a church operating for one year. If I receive that money, that it would take and this is this is just as true what it takes to keep an average church functioning for one year. If I was to receive that money for this podcast, I would be set, not for a year, I'd be set for life. And I produce more content than any church does almost well.

13:49 I mean, there's always some that would would be would be different, but I'm saying for the majority, and it's it's just like someone's got to look at the problem here. So let's dig in. Are you ready. Let's ask ourselves what's really shapping or maybe who's really shaping the beliefs of American Christians. So we have a new survey from the Cultural Research Center at Arizona Christian University, and it has revealed a troubling trend. Now, I will argue there's been survey after survey after survey after survey that's been revealing troubling trends for the last thirty years, and for the most part, churches don't care. Pastors don't care, Christians don't care. Nobody's stinking cares. Okay, oh all right, but here's one of the troubling things they identified in this new survey. Most American Christians no longer believe in one of the most fundamental doctrines of the faith, the Trinity.

14:50 And you watch when this gets uploaded to YouTube. I almost guarantee you I'm going to get the people who reject the Trinity. Who's going to come on strong, because there's a lot of professing Christians on YouTube who obviously reject the Trinity. I mean, they don't just have a misunderstanding of the Trinity, they actively rejected. Only eleven percent of all US adults and just sixteen percent of self identified Christians affirm the traditional Christian belief that God is one being and three equal and distinct persons, coequal, coeternal Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. You hear that only sixteen percent of self identified Christians affirm the traditional belief of the Trinity, only sixteen percent that Look, I don't even I don't.

15:48 And I will argue that there are many people will say that's just not true, that's just not true. You can argue that's not true. But I'm just telling you you just listen to Christian preaching on when they try to even describe the Trinity. These are from churches who say they believe in the Trinity. They almost inevitably describe it and teach it in a way that's fraudulent. Not all, but many will do that. Okay, I'm just looking at these numbers. Right, While fifty nine percent of respondents say they believe in Jesus, only twenty nine percent believe in the Holy Spirit, and overall, belief that God is real and active in people's lives sits at just forty percent. Now, those numbers are staggering because these are numbers coming from self identified Christians. Only fifty nine percent say that they believe in Jesus. What does that even mean? Twenty nine percent believe in the Holy Spirit and only forty percent believe God is real and active in people's lives. I don't even know how we process those numbers, right, Those numbers just make absolutely no sense. They're confusing, and they're staggering.

16:55 So I'm not here to get into a debate about the numbers. There'll be other podcasters will take these numbers apart. They'll try to argue against the numbers. They'll go after the methodology of the survey. Fine, you can go debate that. So if you're gonna email me about that, I'm not That's not what this episode is about. It's about the next paragraph in my summary about this article. According to George Barna, now he's obviously the one who does all the surveys and does all the research, here's what the bigger issue is. Right, here's what the bigger issue is. This is the issue, not just the bigger issue. To me, this is the supreme issue. Are you ready? George Barna says, these findings, those statistics I just gave you, and again they don't make a lot of sense to me. They're all over the place. But okay, these findings reflect how this is. According to George Barna, how little influenced the Bible and the Church now have on shaping people's beliefs. Now, let me stop right there. How much influence does the church really have anymore on shaping people's beliefs? I think this may be the core question here when it comes to a church. Think of all the money it goes and keeping those doors open. How much influence does the church really have? Now we'll forget Catholicism. Let's just look at the non Catholic Protestant world. I will say the church has no influence because Christians will go in and as soon as they don't like what they hear. They just disagree, believe what they want, and just walk out

18:27 the door and go anywhere they want. The church has no authority. The church has no influence. It only has influence as long as the people sitting in the pew agree with it, and as soon as they disagree with it, they just believe whatever they want to believe. The church doesn't determine anything anymore. The church is irrelevant. The church is useless. The church has lost all power and authority. The church is a shadow of its former self. And I don't think that that's being too hyperbolic. Now churches can pretend, churches can make it sound good and look good. And I'm just speaking in general. I'm not speaking of every single church because someone's gonna email me go, well, not this church. There's always exceptions to this. I'm just saying the general idea. In twenty twenty five, the church has I constantly ask what are we getting from all the money going to keep these places open? But now George Barne is saying that, hey, the church no longer has has Okay, let me state this again. George Barna says, these findings reflect how little influence the Bible and the church now have shaping people's beliefs. Now, the fact that the Bible is not shaping their beliefs, Okay, that's a who's separate issue, and we'll get to that as well.

19:49 But the church. When the church becomes completely basically irrelevant, then what's the point of paying all this money to keep the thing open? Here we go, This is what George Barna says. Now, I have been saying this for forever, right, okay, And I'll tell the story of when the first became started coming to my mind that there was really two me a couple of events, and I'll kind of tell We'll do story time here in a minute, all right, But instead, George Barna says, the primary theologians for many Americans today aren't pastors. It isn't preachers, but it is cultural commentators and podcast personalities. George Barna lists one, two, three, four, five, six specific individuals by name. Six individuals would anyone like to write? Now, grab a piece of paper and write down your guests of the six names that George Barn is saying, here are the people. Here are the people who are really influencing even Christians today and Americans today.

21:12 Six names. Go ahead, go ahead, write it down on paper, take a screenshot of it, but put make sure it's got the date and time. Well, what are the six names? Come on, who do you think I'm gonna read this again? He'd give you time to write instead. Barnes says, the primary theologians for many Americans today are no longer pastors. It is not preachers, but it is cultural commentators and podcast personalities. Who do you think they are? Number One? Tucker Carlson. What Tucker Carlson used to be, you know, the big name on Fox News, then he was fired, has his own podcast, now, has his own little media group.

22:06 Now there's Tucker Carlson. Now, when when Christians are being more influenced by Tucker Carlson than they are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John When they're being more influenced by Tucker Carlson than they are preachers and Bible teachers and theology, well then you end up with a large well, most Christians now reject the Trinity because they're they're they're not really being fed Christianity. They're being fed maybe a form of a cultural conservative, politically hijacked kind of Christianity. So Tucker Carlson is the first one listed. Who do you think is number two? Everyone knows number two. Come on, Number two actually is probably number one as far as numbers, But this is just the way they're listed in the article. Joe, Oh, come on, everybody knows Rogan. Millions upon millions. Okay, now I'm pulling from my professional wrestling influence of in my life. Okay, Joe Rogan is listened to by millions and millions and millions of people. And guess what, many and many of those people are Christians. I think a lot of them are Christian men. They'll spend two, three, four hours listening to a Joe Rogan podcast. They're not going to be listening to sermons. They're not going to be listening to philological lectures. So you've got Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, Russell Brand. Oh, he started, he started becoming super influential, Russell Brand. Now

23:41 we could throw in Andrew Tate here, but we won't even get into that whole debacle. The Christian Post does have an article about all of that. That's a whole other concerning situation. But Russell Brand, Jordan Peterson, Oh, I had to deal with that. I had to deal with that, even with someone who attended my church and no longer attend my church. But they called me, what do you think about Jordan Peterson. I think he's really good. I think he's really got. I'm like, wait, you're now going to be more influenced by Jordan Peterson. Wouldn't you want to listen to someone who understands scriptures correctly, someone who's hermeneutically sound, philologically sound. But Jordan Peterson, Jordan Peterson, Jordan. I saw him on YouTube, Jordan Peterson, and I'm just thinking, and of course I did not accept it and pushed back and well, they didn't leave the church for that reason, but I mean it was one of many things that we started disagreeing with that same person as the one who also who told me how great the Chosen was, and I pushed back on that. So immediately I was like, this person's being influenced by everything other than sound biblical theology. Oh, who's the next one? Oh? Come on, if you have the serious XM app, you know this one, because she's all over it. Megan Kelly, I've got Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, Russell, Bran Peterson, Megan Kelly, and then last they have Bill Maher, which is kind of interesting. Bill Maher is an atheist.

25:06 Bill Mahers tends to be more liberal, although those others are far more obviously conservative. Now I could throw in other names here. We can talk about Fox News just in general, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Glenn Beck, Andrew Tate. Now, to me, this is not at first. I'm just shocked that an article put out in twenty twenty five it's finally acknowledging this because I've been saying this forever. I first noticed this in the nineteen nineties, right nineteen nineties, and I noticed this amongst Christian men. Now I started noticing something was wrong as a teenager, because again I've talked about it before. So I'm a teenager. I walk into church. I believe it's a Wednesday night. President Ronald Reagan had launched air strikes. I think on Beirut. I can't remember where. So he had launched air strikes. The pastor stands and says that the president of the United States had launched air strikes. I don't know if anybody had been killed. Maybe people had been killed. And the people in the church stood up and applauded, and I was sitting there as a teenager. I looked around. I'm like, we were applauding military action and possible death of human beings who have eternal soul, who probably was just sent into eternity. I don't think this is Christianity. This sounds like,

26:38 I don't know, American propaganda, American nationalism. We're not here to support America. We're not here. We're here to learn about Jesus Christ. And I got ticked off, and I got up and walked out, and I did not get along with the conversation with the pastor after that was not good because I was like, I don't get this. What is the problem with these people. I thought they come to church to learn about God and Christ, not to support the United States of America. And then started to make me go. And that's probably why we have this huge American flag right here in the sanctuary, because this is more about America than it is about God. Because Jesus is not an American. Okay, the Bible is not pro America. But I got myself in trouble immediately.

27:20 So I already started. That was in the eighties, so I already knew something that It's just like, I think Christians are more influenced by their their love for country or their political party than they are christ But I didn't know how to process this. I was a teenager. I was just like, this seems so weird to me that we're celebrating. I mean, we may be in agreement with the military strike and think it was necessary, but to celebrate it, to applaud it. I had problems with it all right, So our was already knowing something was up. In the nineteen nineties is when I really started seeing this. I would hear Christian men talk about certain issues, right, and it would be like, you know, if something's going on in the Middle East, we just need to turn it into a parking lot. I'm like, what do you mean turning into a parking lot? You know, nuke the whole place. Wait, there's human beings who live there. They'll all die. And some of the things they would say, and then they would use little little derogatory terms towards you know, maybe Democrats, and I'm like, what is going on?

28:20 And then I realized what was happening. These Christian men on their lunch hour. They were not sitting down to read Matthew, Mark Luke and John or Paul, or Leviticus or Ezra or Isaiah or the Psalms or Jeremiah. They weren't doing in depth Bible study. They weren't listening to sermons. They were listening to Rush Limbaugh. And I started noticing that the Christian men would talk like Rush Limbaugh. Now they would merge it with their Christianity and use christian and the need to justify these political ideas. And I was like, something's not right, Something's not right. So I already started noticing it in the nineties. So and then you just move forward. I over and over I've said that Christianity is being influenced by something other than Christianity. Well, now twenty twenty five, if I can give the number correctly, we now have George barn Is saying these are the people shaping Christianity, Tucker Carlson, Joe Rogan, Russell Brand, Jordan Peterson, Megan Kelly, and Bill Maher. And I'm like, what is happening?

29:33 George Barnecut continues, and he argues that even though some of these individuals express interest in religion or Christianity, their influence blend's philosophy, pop psychology, and unbiblical theology. Meanwhile, many churches are offering lightweight sermons series that don't grin ground people in core biblical doctrines, leaving Christians ill equipped to resist the cultural narratives flooding their media feeds. Many Christians are being spiritually shaped more by a daily dose of political and social commentary than by scripture. Barner warns that without a renewed commitment to biblical teaching and worldview formation, American Christianity become American Christianity risk becoming little more than a cultural label. I want you to hear that George Barnet is saying, if something does not change, American Christianity is I mean, the risk exists that American Christianity will become little more than a cultural label. Just a cultural label, doesn't have any real philological significance, just another cultural group, another cultural identity. It doesn't mean anything. It just in fact, it'll be more shaped by something other than well Jesus Christ.

30:58 So I when I was trying to process all of this and think about all of this, I started thinking, well, how did we get here? So let's obviously a massive shift is occurring now I think this shift. I already said, I can trace it all the way back to the eighties just in my own experience. But let's try to trace this the origins and kind of how we got to where we are today. Right, So let's try to consider this to try to understand where American Christianity is today. We have to look back, maybe to where the erosion began. Historically, the church was the center of philological formation. Right. I believe that there was a time the church was a center for philological formation. Now, I wanted when I first became a pastor, this is what I wanted. I wanted the church to be a place of philological formation. But I was accused, it's too much like a seminary, it's too academic. I just wanted to feel like church. And I heard it all the time, criticized, criticized, criticized for it, and that's fine. And I said, well, then go get your fun food in entertainment somewhere else. All right, this place is not for you. It's going to be a center of theological formation. And at some point we're not gonna just learn theology. We're gonna do theology. At some point we're not just gonna learn hermanutics. We're gonna do herminutics.

32:15 And if you listen to my sermon from the second hour on Sunday, you listen to a small group of people because you know the church, the Church for what it is, is basically over. It's dead. We're just waiting for the building to sell and it's no longer going to exist. But for what we still have left, you will listen to a group of people actually engaged in doing hermanutics, not just learning about them. And that's why we put forth a brand new interpretation of Isaiah forty two. All right, so you can go listen to it. But historically the church was the center of theological formation. Christians look to their pastors and the Bible as the primary sources of truth and guidance. But over the last few decades, the foundation again the crack. Now where do we go. Well, I'm going to take it to what I know. That's what I'm going to do right now. Some of you may be able to trace this back far back into church history, and I probably could from a historical perspective, but I thought it would be more interesting to trace it back to what I know, so I can speak from my own experience, and we have to go back to the nineteen eighties, because this is when I get introduced to Biblical well to Christianity. And you know what came with being introduced to Christianity. I was introduced to Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, Heaven, Hell, the Second Coming, Salvation, baptism, you know,

33:49 going to church, Sunday, school, Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, all right, And so I was getting at least a taste of that. But you know what I was also immediately thrust it into the rise of the Christian pop culture in the nineteen eighties. In the nineteen nineties, Christian media exploded. Christian music CCM, contemporary Christian music, Christian rock, Christian metal, Christian hip hop, Christian R and B, Christian punk, Christian SKA. You just named the genre. We had this Christian easy listening, Christian country, we name it. We had it all. It was everywhere, right, Christian music, Christian everything you started having, especially in the nineteen nineties, you had the rise of Christian basically a form of Christian MTV known as TVU, right, and it was they had vj's just like MTV did, and they played music videos and did countdowns of the top ten and it was like, man, it was like everything that was in culture now we had our own Christian pop culture. You had Christian music, you had conferences, you had TV Christian TV shows, you had Christian movies. Much of it was more emotional and entertaining.

35:13 It was not philological. It was more shaping how people felt more than how to think. It was about having this alternative. Hey, the culture out there is ungodly and it's messed up, and but hey, you have the Christian alternative now. And you and you would buy into the Christian alternative because it was Christian and you think you're doing something biblical. But it was more about feeling and having an alternative culture than it really was about being philologically sound. I mean, we can't ignore what happened. You had the rise of this entire pop culture. So you had all these people who became Christians and they finally they really immersed themsels more into this pop, this Christian pop culture, and they were not being philologically grounded. They may have been. They may know all the top hits on Christian radio, they may know the latest Christian video, they may know what's going on in the Christian show, Christian movie, Christian book, Christian novel. They may know about Piercing the Darkness by Frank Peretti, they may know about Left Behind, but they there was something completely lost, completely lost.

36:29 As far as sound biblical theology. I'm not saying it wasn't out there, but a lot of times you were getting maybe sound biblical theology, maybe in church, but the church even itself started pushing towards promoting this pop culture concept. So what you have the rise of pop culture, then we get the rise of seeker, sensitive and topical preaching. Churches shifted to user friendly sermons, shorter, lighter, more therapeutic. Sin doctrine and theology took a backseat to life tips and inspirational themes. The preaching began to change. And even in many sound churches, even if you had good preaching, they still had to mix in plenty of fun food and activity and programs and everything there. And when you started looking at the amount of actual even in churches that did good teaching, what was happening. Many of them started sacrificing, say Sunday night to do small groups because small groups was going to be where we really got disciples, but they became more about life groups and getting to know people and making friends and living life together and singing Kumbaya and talking about our feelings and holding hands and drinking a coke and having a smile. And we got this activity. We have a putt luck, and we have a picnic, and we have a quilting group, and the women are going on a shopping trip, and the men are going hunting so we can kill bambi. And there was activity, activity, activity, activity, activity. But even though when they did tea those churches, some of those churches

38:01 still taught good sound theology, but church still became about all of these other things. And guess what when you have all of these other things, that time is not being utilized to disciple and to teach. It's being used to build friendships, build relationships. It's about community, right, all of the buzzwords that I yelled and screamed about for thirty years. And everybody's like, you just hate people, you just hate fun. I was like, I don't need church to get me fun. I can have fun without the church. I don't need the church to help me make a friend. Okay, if I want a friend, I'll find a friend of or I don't. Maybe you don't need a friend, just leave me alone, all right. So but the point was the church started becoming all of this other stuff. Well, guess what happened. You look at the church, You look at the total amount of teaching put together within a year, and you're like, are we really getting that much for the money that's going into it. So you have the rise of Christian pop culture, and then you have seeker sensitive and topical preaching. But then this leads to the third.

39:00 Now the internet becomes a thing. The Internet begins to grow, and you get fragmented influence. Once the web opened up, so did the floodgates of influence. Christians no longer relied on their pastor or local church for spiritual input. They were being displaced by blogs, forms, and eventually podcast and YouTube. Now you've got all these other voices. You got all these other voices now, and in some ways is why would you not be looking to the other voices. Because the church is giving you more fun, food and entertainment and how to have a friend. Then they're giving you anything. I go to church to get a friend. I don't go to the church to get anything. So I'm gonna look to all these other sources because there's something there.

39:47 It's more in depth, it's more interesting, it's more real, it's more raw. I'm getting this canned presentation, but really I'm going to church for all of this other nonsense. You can see the progression here. So you have the explosion of Christian pop culture. You have the seeker sensitive topical preaching. Church turns into all things for all people, entertainment, community center. And then we have the Internet explodes, and then everything becomes fragmented. Then you have a complete and total collapse of catechises. Many churches stop teaching basic doctrine, Sunday schools faded, Midweek service has disappeared. Most Christians today haven't been taught core beliefs like the Trinity, the attributes of God are justification by faith, and if they are taught it, it's not taught in a very like real let's struggle with it, let's work with It's like, hey, everyone, here's the book we're going to be working through. Now.

40:44 Everyone go read a chapter and then we'll talk about it. Right, And you can't really dig into it or pastors. All they do is regurgitate what they were taught. Right, there's no actual doing theology. It's just like, ooh, today we're going to talk about the trinity. You're and it just someone basically walks through the points that they took from you know, grudom, systematic theology or wherever, and it's not really working or struggling through it. Now, these trends created a generation of Christians who felt spiritual. They felt spiritual. There was a lot of activity, there was a lot of sound and fury, but nothing was really deeply rooted in biblical doctrine. And this set the stage for what comes next. So we have the origins of the shift, and that really is the rise of Christian pop culture, seeker, sensitive, topical preaching. The church becomes all things to all people, becomes a community center, and the collapse of catechises. Right, that's that's kind of what what where we get to and then what happens now we get to the next phase.

41:47 The next phase I will refer to the next phase as the political hijacking and the social media corruption of American Christianity. That the political hijacking and the social media corruption of American Christianity. Let's talk about the political hijacking of the church in the two thousands and especially you get around two thy fifteen, going into twenty sixteen, someone comes down the golden escalator and his name is Donald Trump.

42:30 And whatever you want to say about what he does to American politics, to me, he came down the golden escalator and it immediately began to destroy American Christianity because in the two thousands and especially leading up to the twenty sixteen and after, politics took over the pulpit and it took over many christians hearts. Political identity became more important than phil logical identity. Christians started filtering scripture through their political views. As said of the other way around. Churches began to divide not over doctrine, but over party allegiances.

43:11 Sermons and small groups reflected culture wars more than they did gospel clarity. A growing number of Christians became more emotionally invested in what was said by politicians and pundits than by their own pastor. This opened the door for political commentators to become spiritual authorities. All of a sudden, everyone in the church was more They started sounding like Donald Trump's Twitter feed or x feed or truth social wherever he was, he was putting forth his words I'll be nice, okay, and then well, and then it started and then Christians started sounding like Alex Jones, started sounding like Tucker Carlson, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, and it's like, what is happening? And it was all like pro America, make America great again. We're maga, We're maga, and we're Trump Trump supporters, and it's like, oh my goodness, what has happened to the American church? Politics politics, politics, politics, politics, politics, politics, politics, politics, conspiracy theory, conspiracy theory, conspiracy theory, conspiracy theory, the rise of QAnon. We can go in all these crazy things that started happening because why the church had already let them down. They had been so not It's almost like they didn't think theology or Christianity really had the answer.

44:30 They Christianity needed politics to really do what I guess they wanted to. Everything was about a culture war at this point, then about biblical Christianity. So there's the political hijacking of the church, and then we know the rise and rule of social media. At the same time, social media radically changed how people consume information algorithms became disciple makers. Algorithms became the disciple makers. They delivered content designed to stir emotion and deepen tribal loyalties. TikTok, Instagram and YouTube creators began shaping people's theology, often in short, meme able content lacking depth or accountability. Algorithm becomes the new disciple maker.

45:20 You're you're on social media, and it's what's in your feed, and if you don't like something, block if you don't like something, and so you build echo chambers. So then TikTok, Instagram and YouTube creators began shaping people's theology, often and short, meme able stuff that you can easily turn into a meme. It's it's, it's, it's, it's ready to go. It's meme, ready to go. And then memes start becoming how Christians, I guess start thinking content, and this kind of content lacked any depth or accountability. Influencers who were charismatic and real became more compelling than their faithful but less flashy, flashy pastors. The people online, the people in your social media feed, well, these are more real, they're more organic, maybe they're more charismatic. They can present it in a much more flashy way. I staid of just a man standing behind a pulpit saying, today, open your bibles. We're in Romans chapter one. We're going to cover verses one through four. Booooooo boom. Now it's not that people we start booing, but in reality they're kind of like tuned out.

46:27 Oh I wonder what's going on on YouTube? Oh wait, wait, there's a new TikTok. Wait. I got a notification on the on the gram, I got, Oh, what's going on here? That's more flashy, it's more interesting, it's more real, it's more organic, or at least in part it appears to be so. Christians began following figures who offered meaning, identity, and a sense of belonging, often outside the church and sometimes outside the faith altogether. Because in many cases, these influencers, these people on social media, the YouTubers, they were reinforcing their political thoughts, right, so they because they start becoming so consumed with politics, pastors aren't. I want a pastor out talk about what's going on in the world. I want to talk about what's happening, because you want to just get drown yourself in a political cultural issue. And not just theology. And look, I I was yelling about this all how many years ago, I used to talk about this all the time, and I and look, it had a massively negative profile impact on my own spiritual life.

47:38 Look any mistakes in any sin that I've ever committed, it's only it's my fault. It's nobody else's fault. But I can see how some things had negative impact on me because here's what happened, right. I started realizing a long time ago, even on sermonadio. And I'm not going to say how it's still true to some level today. I get if I go on Sermonadio and I post a something about something going on in the culture, right, something about Trump, something about the Democrats, something about LGBTQ, something about transgender, something about if I go after the culture wars, if I go after current events and I make the title shocking or controversial, if I call out you know why the Democrats are Satan's tools Taylor Swift as a Satanist. You know, if I go after Hollywood is full of pedophiles. If I go with all this crazy, this kind of typical content, boom, the numbers will go from ten downloads twenty to five hundred to one thousand.

48:41 People want controversy. They want they want something shocking. They want something, you know, ooh, you know, pulling back the curtains and exposing people. They just want conflict, controversy, shocking. They want because they see so much content, it's got to be something that's going to get them. And you've got to be quick. You gotta be quick, man, you gotta be Oh wha, wha, wha, what the story just broke. Hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry, go go, go, go go. We're coming to you live from the Theology Central podcast. I know this news story is just breaking, but I gotta let you know that President Trump is the Antichrist. Oh get it, I'll get it. Put oh. I don't want to say that. I'd get me in trouble, but you get the ad. Obama's the Antichrist. Obama's gonna put us in FEMA camps. Oh oh, the flu vaccine is putting the mark of the beast. And I just throw out every create. Reptilians are taking over the world, you know, just go crazy, man bloom. I get the downloads, I get the streams, and people will be like, hey, let me sign up for your Patreon page.

49:36 I'll give you money. I watched it happen over and over and over. I could I could be like, Oh, I'm gonna do a I'm gonna do a daily devotional. I'm just gonna dig in. I try to do something called the Daily Manna. Way back then, I get ten downloads, twenty downloads, We're gonna go first. By the rest of the book of Levitigus, you give maybe fifty downloads. Oh, cover something controversial, Boom, five hundred one thousand. It became it became a joke. I don't even need to really talk about now. When I do those when I do those controversial programs, oh, of course, I got to read some scripture and rip it way out of context. Of course, And you can even see it on the sermon on sermon audio today. You look for the people who are going to be doing those more controversial kinds of programs, they get the numbers, so and and this all just falls into this. What would get the political hijacking. And then the rise of social media, and so algorithm becomes becomes the disciple maker. It does controversy cells and so then TikTok Instagram and YouTuber. They catch on, So you begin shaping people's theology and the short mean type content

51:06 and no depth or accountability. Christians began following figures who offered meaning, identity, and a sense of belonging, oftening outside the church and sometimes outside the faith altogether. So now that leads us to what's happening now. So we have talked about the origins of the shift. We talked about the next phase, which is the political highs, hijacking and the rise of social media. Now let's talk about what's happening now. Well, what is the result? Well, we just got to study today. The latest study by the Christian Research Center at Arizona Christian University says only eleven percent of all US adults and just sixteen percent of self identified Christians affirm the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. That's not a minor doctrinal detail. That's one of the pillars of historic Christianity. Even more telling, George Barna, the lead researcher, says that the most influential theologians for American Christians today are not pastors. They are podcasts and broadcast personalities. Trucker Carlson Joe Rogan, Russell Brand and Jordan Peterson, Megan Kelly and Bill Maher. Some of these voices are openly spiritually, spiritual, or respectful of Christianity. Others are skeptical or even hostile, but they all offer answers to life's big questions identity, purpose, suffering, and morality. Many Christians now spend more time listening to these voices than they do to scripture or their pastors.

52:20 Philological formation is happening, but it's happening somewhere else, because the church is not. It's it. I don't even know what the church does anymore other than get a lot of money to keep buildings operating and pay salaries. So that's where we are today. You can now put you can put the names in. Look at the latest podcast charts, that's what you do. Look at how many downloads of Joe Rogan gets or a Megan Kelly gets, or Jordan Peterson or a Russell Brand or an Andrew Tate, look at look at look at the are an Alex Jones.

53:07 And then when you do, look at the top of the of the Christian podcast. Look at how shallow they are, look at how how how little, look at when you listen to the to the Top Christian podcast. Listen, look at how overly produced they are, how manufactured here, how generic they are, how shallow they are. They're not real, They're not raw. Now I'm not saying there aren't any, but so many of them. It's just like, oh, my goodness, this, what is this? I'm not getting anything from that. There's nothing of depth. Now, there are some who have who have fought back and have done a good job, and they should be applied. Whether I agree or disagree, at least they're offering something of substance. So what what what it means for the church? Well, this shift carries deep consequences for the future of Christianity. Doctrinal collapse. If the belief in the Trinity is fading, then the belief in Christ's divinity, salvation, sin, and the resurrection, well, if they haven't already collapsed, they're not far behind. And again, I've talked about it so many times. You start even talking about justification based off an imputed righteousness, not an infused righteousness, and you listen to sermon after sermon after sermon, at least functionally, at least practically practically, they all deny justification by an imputed righteousness. Righteousness over and over and over.

54:32 We've identified that a million times, and listen to how the text are handled over and over and over, so we have a complete doc. We're in the midst of a complete doctrinal collapse. Next, cultural Christianity reinforced, more people will wear the Christian label while rejecting Christian beliefs. More and more people will claim Christianity, but they were actually not Christian in any functional way. They're Christian, they just use Christianity to support Trump or their politics or putin killing everyone in Ukraine or whatever they're going to use Christianity to justify today. Christianity is just something. It's just a cultural label that they utilize to justify their culture wars and their political leanings. Biblical illiteracy is the norm.

55:23 Without deep teaching, Christians can't tell biblical truth from cultural ideology. And biblical illiteracy has been a problem that goes all the way back to when I was in Bible college and seminary in the nineties. I was being told, man, look, whenever new freshmen come in, we have to start over with the basics because they're coming from churches and they don't know anything. I'm like, you know why they don't know anything? Because the church is a stinking joke. It's pizza parties, it's fun food. It's very little preaching and teaching of anything in depth. Or it's holding hands, sitting in a semi circle talking about what you think to text me. I was yelling and screaming about it in the nineties, but nobody was stinking listening. Biblical literacy has been a problem forever, and there's been study after study after study saying biblical literacy, biblical literacy. Now, I do blame the churches for it, but I'm done blaming churches right because I used to blame church. Now churches are just I don't even know. Did we just throw money.

56:25 That's just a place to give money to to keep buildings open so that we can all feel like we're doing something for God. To me, it's a waste of absolute time. But now I no longer blame churches. Any Christian who's biblically illiterate, it's no one's fault but your own. You've got more tools available to you than any Christian has in the entire history of Christianity. You've got billions of sermons available to you, philological every theological work you can imagine, you've got. I mean we could go on and on. Just again, just take one app the sermon audio app over six about between five to six thousand sermons are at every single week. You've got an entire seminary education waiting you twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. And if you don't want it, it's because you would rather listen to Joe Rogan and rather yelling and watch Fox News and tell everyone how great Trump is. Then you care about actually doing any serious theological work. That's on you. I'm sick and tired. I used to blame the church. Done blaming the church. Just know it's the people sitting in the pew. You don't care, you don't want to know. It's on you. Stop whining about anybody. So nobody taught me because you didn't care to learn. And I used to say, well, if you just create a church that will offer in depth teaching, people will flood to it. No they won't. They come into it, and then they go, I really want this, and I want this, and I want this and I want this. Well, then go to your stinking little playtime and be happy. I used to be blamed the church.

57:55 Now I'm tired of that, tired of blaming the church people sitting in the pew. What you want, then just stop pretending you want fun, food, fellowship and activities, because as soon as you get into a place that's going to actually challenge biblical literacy and do theology and do hermaniitics, you get offended and you get mad and you walk away. Churches are losing their authority. If voices like Rogan or Brand are more trusted than local pastors, the church becomes sidelined, even to its own members. The church is beyond sideline. The church has been. The church is just a it's a it's an it's a it's an antiquated leftover. I don't even know what it's to say. It's just a relic.

58:41 It's a relic of a time gone by. But yet we're still spending money and money and money propping up buildings, but nothing is happening in them. The people sitting in those those pews are being more influenced by everything other than what's going on inside that building, because much of what's going on in that building is not enough substance to really make an influence. Christianity becomes more of a vibe. It's less of a system of revealed truth. It's more flexible. It's a spiritualized framework that blends self help, political ideology, and personal experience. That's what Christianity is today. So how do we correct it? I don't know. I don't know how to correct it. I don't. I really don't. I could sit here and offer a million. I look, everything I've tried to do has been a failure. It's just that.

59:44 I mean, I can give you example after example of things I try to do to get people into I mean, I try to start create a church that was all about this, and I watch what happened. People would come in, Oh, I'm so tired of church as usual. And then next thing, you know, where do they all got? Oh they go to a church. It's just like the churches they said that they were tired of. That's what people want. And you try to do theology, do harmoneutics. People get offended, they get mad, they leave. It's just I mean, it's an exercise in futility. I can sit here and put out fifteen thousand hours of content on Bible study exercise. I could even try to provide digital curriculum available to everybody.

1:00:25 I watch it. Why those numbers to those programs are low, low, low, low low. I can do one program about something controversial, and boom, I can triple the numbers of trying to do actual Bible teaching. Now, I'm going to continue to try to do my best at doing Bible teaching. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying I understand the futility in it. I mean, we try to provide, you know, digital curriculum for everyone. We tried how many people actually used it? How many people were even willing to support the offering of it. We were giving, we were paying money to try to make it all available. People wouldn't even support it. We tried to do giveaways of giving people, you know, books and reference tools. Were people willing to help give money to support that. No, it's like it's just oh man, it's so it's so maddening where the things are, and and just I can just think about how things have gone in my own experience as a pastor.

1:01:32 The different thing I'm reaching back trying. I gotta plug in my iPad because it's about to die here, and that's where I have all my notes. So I'm sorry. I had to lean way, way way away from the microphone. There we go, because also I get that warning on my iPad you've got like three five percent left of your battery. Your iPad's about to die. So but yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I've got a list of things here putting down on my notes of things we could try to do. But to me, it's a waste of time. People have been trying to say what to do since the nineteen nineties. I can remember when when in the nineties there used to be a magazine that came out called the Discipleship Journal. Oh. I used to love getting that. I would go to Divine Truth and Papilia, Nebraska and get my copy every every I think I think it was ever quarter of Discipleship Journal.

1:02:23 I would get that magazine. Oh, I'd tear that thing apart. Now, it was really designed for the explosion of small groups. But it was like giving you these things to study and giving you things to read. And I love that. And that thing it fell apart, went away and I could just you could just see that Christians didn't really care to dig in and then as a pastor man all the things we tried to do, do I even have it here. I got it laying right out feature the Daily Bible Study Guide. I told every I've told everyone even on this podcast, how to get a subscription to feature a daily Bible Study Guide really cheap for a year. I think it's like twelve dollars for a year. The thing is a really good devotional. It's like, at least from a devotional perspective, the best you're gonna get.

1:03:08 I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's best gonna get because a lot of times it tends to be exegetical. Well, we try to give those away to everyone in the church. We would have like a hundred of them just to hand to people, right, and then we try a thing where we did, Hey, you go do the devotional each day. You'll come to Sunday school and we'll do a test on the devotional readings for that week. That was a failure. That was a failure. We used to give away at the beginning of every year, we would try to give everyone two books. Here are the two books. You have an entire year to read these two books, and these books are going to influence. Nobody would read the books we tried to do study guide nobody. Half the people wouldn't use them over and over in a failure fail your fail, your fail, your fail, your fail, your fail your failure, and you're just kind of like, man, what do you look? The church can do everything, but it's the people in the pew have to decide what they want.

1:04:02 And I understand the people in the pew are somewhat overwhelmed. I will give them that they are bombarded twenty four seven with their phone and their social media and this content and this content and this content and this content and this content and this content. At some point that they have to stop and go, well, where what am I doing? Spiritually? And then the people in the pew are politically hijacked, I mean beyond that. But I can say I do believe this. We are witnessing a reformation, only this one is not being driven by Bibles, by counsels, not by the ninety five pieces nailed to a door.

1:04:50 If that's historically accurate. I know that's called into question whether he actually nailed them to a door, but he did publish them. But this reformation is not being a influenced by any of those things, but it's being influenced by influencers, by algorithms, by cultural celebrities. The question now is will the church reclaim its role as the source of truth or will it stand by wile others rewrite what Christianity means. I think the church is I don't know.

1:05:34 I don't know what to say. I've been saying it for years now again, I'm just when you start digging into the numbers, how much money does it take to keep a church just just functioning, just to keep the doors open, And you look at that amount of money and you're like, okay, so it takes this much money to keep a church open. Then you go look up and say a church website, and you're like, that's how many sermons you gave me in a year. That's it. I could get better teaching from anything. Well, then the church becomes more and more irrelevant. But the problem is, even if you're a Christian podcaster is trying to put out all the Christian all the Bible teaching in the world, the people still are more much more drone to drawn to sensationalism. And I was watching this the other day.

1:06:22 I've seen a number of YouTube videos now and Christian the Christian YouTube world. A lot of YouTubers are like, you know what, guys, I've kind of had it. I'm thinking about quitting because this is what I realize. I can do a YouTube video where I'm trying to offer biblical teaching and I'll get fifty downloads, right, But if I do one with a thumbnail sketch of me with a shocked expression on my face. Oh, and you'll see this all the time on YouTube. Oh shocking. And you give a shocking headline, you know, this pastor exposed his teaching shown to be satanic or the Satanic influence on Taylor Swift or whatever. Just shocking, sensational boom. You get downloads, downloads, downloads, streams, stream streams, and comment comment, comment, comment, comment, comment, fighting and arguing. If you deal with a cultural issue, a political issue, you get all. Everett, that's what everybody wants.

1:07:18 Nobody wants you just to do well, We're gonna spend six weeks doing a systematic teaching on the doctrine of the Trinity and all the trinitarian heresies that have been present within church history. People are like, oh no, now they may act like excited for fifteen seconds, but then they're gonna go, oh, look over there, Oh look over there, that's exciting, that's controversial. That So even on Christian YouTube, many of them are like, I'm either going to just keep putting out this kind of content or there's no point in even doing this anymore. And when you get Christian YouTuber starting to realize, look, if I want to make money on this, I got to be mister controversial sensational I gotta make sure I'm quick. I gotta pick up the algorithm. The algorithm controls everything. Same thing with me.

1:08:05 I when I if I, I have to look at what do I want to accomplis do I want to do I want to broadcast what I want to broadcast? Do I want to broadcast maybe what is needed? But the people may not want it. And if the people don't want what I think is needed, well then they're not going to listen. So then it doesn't really matter how many hours I sit here in this room producing content. Do I listen to what everyone tells me they want and try to provide that or do I just say, you know what people really want? Is sensationalism controversy well, I can try to give people what they want, maybe even grow the podcast and may even actually get support.

1:08:47 Not gonna help this problem. We're gonna become more and more biblically illiterate and more and more philologically corrupted. All right, that's my positive, uplifting message for today. There is a new reformation that's taking place, and it's not a good one. And it's been going on for quite a while. I tried to take you through the history of it. Thanks for listening. Everyone, have a great day. God bless