NAR and Seven Mountains

0:02 Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is the Theology Central podcast, making Theology Central. Good afternoon, everyone. It is Friday, April eighteenth, twenty twenty five. It is currently five twenty five pm Central Time, and I'm coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located right here in Abilene, Texas. Now, when it comes to false doctrine, false teachers, I always struggle, like, how much time do I really focus on false teaching and false doctrine in this way? Right, because you can go out there and find the you know, the theology the teachers that are just so abhorrent, so crazy, so insane that I mean, it's easy. You can just go find one horrible, messed up, crazy outlandish thing after another. You can episode after episode exposing this person, exposing this teaching, exposing this doctrine, exposing this theology, and you can kind of become the discernment person, right, and you go listen and you already know how bad it is, and then you review it, you already know how bad it is, so in some ways it's almost like it's rehearsed and you're just kind of the discernment guy, and you tear this apart, and you tear this apart, and you tear this apart, and you tear this apart, and you're warning everyone about all of these extremely heretical movements in theology.

1:34 And I'm not saying there's not a place for that, But after a while it just seems like, I don't know, I mean, do you need to be warned about some of the craziness out there, some of the extreme just heresy out there. There's a part of me says, anybody should be able to figure this out. It's not that I mean, it's not that difficult to see when something is so abhorrent. However, obviously there is room to do that, because well, there is so much abhorrent theology that not only has its supporters, they tend to do very well. They tend to bring in lots and lots of money, and they find themselves and positions of great power and influence.

2:16 Even when it comes to I don't know, our government, the president, well, then it even becomes even more concerning, like how can any rational people listen to this stuff? But over and over it's there, so I know there's a place for it. But for me, this is my own thought, my own thought, maybe just hear me out. Maybe the reason so many people are drawn into this craziness and this insanity and this heresy and just I don't even know what you call it. It's just so whacked out. Is that a good technical term. It's so whacked out, it's so cuckoo for cocoa puffs, it's so insane, it's so ridiculous. Maybe people are are vulnerable to being brought into it or being influenced by it because the average church that may not be heretical, that may not be you know, teaching heresy is just so vague and shallow and a little bit of spirituality, but they don't really care about hermaneutics, they don't really care about theology, that they leave the people vulnerable. Maybe that's the bigger issue.

3:30 So for me, instead of going out looking for the heretical teaching, I just like to grab sermons from churches that, for the most part, would appear to be okay, would appear to be all right, and review those sermons without knowing what's going on, going into them actually blind. At one that's more fun because it's not rehearsed, it's more organic, But it really gives us a sense of what's going on and the so called good churches, right, because if what's going on in the so called good churches is hermeneutically questionable, it's vague, it's messed up, it's it's blurring the lines between law and gospel. I mean, we can go through all the possible problems of just things we've discovered.

4:15 Well doesn't doesn't that then explain why these other movements can be so enticing because the people are vulnerable? Is that a am I formulating a hypotheses here? So for me, I instead of going out there going oh, you know, what is what is this? What is Bethel doing? What is this crazy church doing? What is this crazy? I mean a large portion of Christianity already brands these people heretics, So why go spend all of my time going after them. I'm more worried about all the people who are calling those people heretics when they themselves there's a million problems. I guess what. There are certain forms of Christianity, and we state it this way. There's sudden certain forms of Christianity like anything in the charismatic world. Anything in the charismatic world. I mean, I don't. I just see that as insane. I see that it's just like, who could ever buy into anything in the charismatic world. It's so ridiculous.

5:10 So I don't even consider I'll just be honest, most of the charismatic theology and charismatic Christianity, I don't even consider it christian. I just think it's insanity. I think it's I hate to say it. I almost see it sometimes as a mental disorder. I don't understand it in any way, shape or form. So why am I gonna go waste my time about that? Because I don't see how anybody could ever even consider it. What bothers me is all of the Christians who are pointing at them, saying heretic, heretic, heretic. I think we typically have enough issues of our own to deal with, right, It's to me judgment begins in the house of the Lord. Well, those charismatic, crazy heretics, I don't even consider them a part of the house. I don't even see them in the same neighborhood. I don't see them in the same state, I don't see them in the same country. I don't even see them on the same planet. I don't even see them in the same universe. So am I gonna spend my time worrying about that. I'm over here with all the people who, oh they appear to be we're quote unquote on the same side. What I find out is the people that I think I'm on the same side with, I don't even agree with them. Okay, So I guess that's where I tend to focus, right, not just spending my time going after the supposed you know, being a heresy hunter. I'm more worried about just what's going on in Christianity in general, because I think that's what makes it vulnerable. I know, I'm kind of formulating a hypothesis, but my whole point is this. You don't

6:43 hear me do a lot of these kind of programs about the craziness, But in this particular case, we're gonna go right into the middle of the craziness. We're gonna walk, we're gonna drive right into the middle of the craziness. And trust me, it wasn't my idea, right, I was minding my own business. But remember I have fifteen different podcast apps. I get notification after notification after notification, and all of a sudden, I'm minding my own business and I get a notification that reads climbing the Seven Mountains, and I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, someone's talking about the seven Mountain mandate. Oh man, I know because it was a Christian podcast, you could say, well, how do you how did you know it wasn't about climbing actual mountains because it was a Christian podcast. And if they're talking about the seven Mountains, I know where this is going. And I'm like, oh, we're going to have the New Apostolic Reformation. And then what's connected to the NAAR is seven mountains and of course naar seven mountains.

7:45 Just look at the Trump administration, I mean all day long, okay, and guess what many of those Christians who would condemn the heretics of the Charismatic Movement, the NAR movement, the seven mountain Ment, well, seven mountain mandate, which its weird. The seven Mountain mandate I think in many cases has an influence upon the Christians who condemn the NAR and the Charismatic movement, which is really strange to me. But many of these Christians are like pro Trump, pro Trump, pro Trump. The Trump administration is greatly influenced by nar and the Seven Mountain Mandate, and I think that should be concerning. But of course if I say that, then I'm going to be well, then everyone's going to be mad at me. But I think there's a lot of truth to it. So here's what we're gonna do. I grab the audio and we're going to start listening to it, start talking about it. Just I don't know how long we're going to go, and then I'll challenge you to go listen to the podcast. The podcast that you need to find is Understanding the Times. I've told you like a million times to download and subscribed to their podcast Understanding the Times, which Jen Markel. I don't agree with everything she says. Sometimes she clearly wanders off into conspiracy land and craziness and drives me crazy. By there's other times she's doing really good job at exposing some of the craziness inside the Christian Church. So Jan Markel, I think it's Jen Did I say Jen Jan Markel? It's it's j A n Yeah, it's not j e En Jan Markel Understanding the Times. And I'm gonna play their

9:19 intro and everything so that you can hear them identify everything you should subscribe to it, and you should listen to the latest episode, which is Climbing the Seven Mountains. It was released today. All right, that's why I saw the notification today. So go listen to it. But we'll we'll review at least part of it. We'll talk a little bit about the NAAR Seven Mountain Mandate, and maybe we'll talk a little bit about how this well, the Trump administration has this nonsense. Put it this way, It's fingerprints on the NAR and the Seven Mountain Mandate has its fingerprints all over the true administration. Is that a good way to describe it, and that should be concerning to all of us. All right, So here we go.

10:07 Let me lower the volume here because I amplified it and it's way too loud right now. But here we go. We're going to go into this the latest episode of Understanding the Times podcast. The episode is called Climbing the Seven Mountains. Buckle in. This stuff is crazy. Here we go. Why do they call it the New Apostolic Reformation or NAR when nothing they represent is new. We'll talk about it. I am speaking prophetically by the Holy Spirit, and you are to sew a three thousand dollars seat when you obey the voice of the Lord, and you do what God's telling you to do.

10:49 You need to send in thirty five thousand. You need to send in that one hundred thousand dollars check. I'm telling you. And God has mandated if you do not write that po box and you do not call that toll free number, and you do not become a ministry of sustainer, you will never see sustainment in your life. Welcome to Understanding the Times Radio with Jan Markel. Now you just listen to that. I don't know if you know that voice. That's Paula White. We've already talked about her recently. She's Trump's spiritual advisor. Yeah, and well you can hear the one thing that describes her money money, money, money, money, money, And of course the way it works, you give her money and well then you get things, you get blessings.

11:29 And we talked about some of the things she was doing as it was approaching Easter, and we talked about some of that. There was a little bit of controversy about it. Some people say it was misunderstood. We talked about it. We played the clip, just all kinds of craziness. But yeah, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, money, Whether anyone wants to believe this, whether anyone's ever going to acknowledge this Christianity. You can say, well, we'll call it Churchianity, but we'll say Christianity as it is manifested in the world right now. I'm not talking the teachings of Christianity, like the deity of Christ, substitutionary atonement. I'm not talking about that. But I'm saying Christianity as it's played out in the world. There's no way that I mean, you've got to acknowledge this. It's a business. It's straight up a business. You have a product you sell. That product is Jesus, that product is salvation, that product is the Bible. You sell it. People pay you money to get it, people pay you money to receive it. It's a business. It's a transaction. And in some cases it's like oh no, no, no. If you want to be blessed, if you want this, if you want this, give them money, give them money, give them money, and then you get which.

12:41 All of this is nothing more than selfishness and fleshliness. You can try to describe it all day about being spiritual. You're giving money because you're hoping to get something. It's just a it's oh, the whole thing. And we've talked about how much money it takes to operate a church, what people actually get out of a church for the money they put into it. How much money goes into for ministries to operate. It's insanity. It's money, money, money, money, money, money. Just to keep a church operating for one year. The amount of money, it's just nuts. But I'm not supposed to criticize that. Just find it interesting that all of those opening clips are all about money. Won't you want to hear him again. Let's hear him again. Let's hear him again. Here we go.

13:26 Why do they call it the New Apostolic Reformation or NAR when nothing they represent is new. We'll talk about it. I am speaking prophetically by the Holy Spirit, and you are to sew a three thousand dollars seat. When you obey the voice of the Lord and you do what God's telling you to. Do, you need to send in thirty five thousand. You need to send in that one hundred thousand dollars check. I'm telling you, And God has mandated if you do not write that po box and you do not call that toll free number, and you do not become a ministry of sustain or you will never see sustatement in your life. Welcome. Do you think that would work for me? Hey, guys, you the Holy Spirit has spoken. You are to sew into the Theology Central podcast one hundred thousand dollars? Do you think I could convince anyone out there or a group of people to come up with one hundred thousand dollars?

14:21 I've told before one hundred thousand dollars would be all I would ever need. That's all I would ever need. One hundred thousand dollars. I mean that pays off my house, That takes care of everything, I mean literally everything. That's all I would ever Now, I wouldn't meet another dime. And I could broadcast five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten hours a day if need be one hundred dollars. But do I tell everyone God, God, God is telling me. God is speaking now. See, I don't know how anyone buys into that, But it works. How many ministries has this worked for? Over and over and over and over and over again. It never stops. It's working. You think at something, people are like, wait a minute, there's something wrong. No, no, no, no, it works. So the way to get money is to convince everyone God is telling you to tell them that they have to give money. I don't but okay, but that's that's just right. There's just stack it just as it blows my mind. And Paul White's still doing it.

15:21 I don't know how old those clips are. We just heard the recent thing about getting all these special blessings. If you give a big gift, you know, leading up to Passover in Easter, leading up to all of that, you can get a special all these special blessings if you give them a special amount of money. It's just it never. Stops to understanding. The Times Radio with Jan Markel Radio for the Remnants, brought to you by Olive Tree Ministries. In part one of our program, Jan Markel talks to Holly Pivoc about the troubling Signs and Wonders movement called the New Apostolic Reformation. This is harming many good churches and denominations with end time spiritual deception. Then can Michael and Josh Schwartz talk to Nathan Jones, They consider things to come. Here is today's program.

16:19 Now, I've got to disagree with something. I don't know how the Naar seven Mountain movement can harm a good church, because if you're a good church, how does this stuff even get through the front door? How? How? I don't understand. Anyone who holds to the nar Or seven Mountain mandate would not last and would not stay in my church for more than thirty seconds. Okay, they would leave Immediately'd be like, okay, clearly this church is not in line with this stuff. They wouldn't even listen to this podcast for thirty seconds. Okay, So I like, I don't know, but all right, you know, well we can have a long discussion. Right there just raises lots of questions.

17:01 You can accept somebody and they say, God's getting ready to give me access. Victory, victory, fixtory, victory, victory. Man strike and strike and strike and strike and strike and strike. Wherever I go, God rules. When I walk on white House grounds, God walks the White House ground. The Lord couse it is done, the Lord, because it is done, the Lord, because it is done. And she starts going around and around and around with a man. All send take satanic frequencies to miscarry. Right now, we declare that anything has been conceived and satanic. Wonts the little fist carry Africa right now? In Africa, right now, Africa, right now. I had every ride in authority to declare the White House as holy ground.

17:44 Welcome to the program. I know that's a little unnerving. We're going to get into my program I and explain more about what you just heard, which was the voice of the White House Faith Advisor paul White. So I have worked with my guest for this segment. I just want you to hear that all that that, all that crazy stuff that Paula White was saying. I mean, that is the White House Spiritual Advisor. It's insanity, that's it. And everything she's saying is just crazy talk. It's just like how who who? Here's that? And goes m okay now again, I will I will just remind everyone I know. I always say, look, I don't understand it. I don't, okay. So this is one of those things I try to be transparent here and not try to say, oh I understand, and because I don't, this is just one of the there are things in my life. There's sins and things that I fall and struggle with that you would not understand. And I just don't understand how anybody in their right mind could ever get caught up in the charismatic movement. I just say that because I truly just don't understand. I know people, can I know people? Do? I know that? I just don't in my mind. Like I became a Christian, and as soon as I begin exposed to the chars my I'm like, this is the most whacked out stuff I've ever seen in my life. Who could buy into this insanity? Now, if you're born and raised and brought up in it, then it looks normal to you, So I can't understand that.

19:11 But from the outside, I'm like, what is this insanity? This is crazy? And then you start hearing the stories about how they fake this and how this was a lie and this wasn't true and this information was false, and then you just start going no, thank you, no, thank you, no, no, no, I'm I'm just gonna walk away. I'm just gonna come over here. You're crazy, You're crazy. Now. I defended people who were in it, not their theology. I defended them because I went to school with a lot of girls who were Pentecostal and they got picked on. So I'd always go to their defense, not their theology. You're just like, look, that's the way they if that's the way they want to dress. I didn't know that's the way they had to dress. But if that's the way they want to dress, everyone back off. Who cares?

19:55 Who cares? Just leave alone? Right? So? But man, anytime we would have any words about theology, I'm like, Hey, that's it. Hey, look, I'll defend you if people pick on you, but just stop your nonsense because you're out of your ever living minds. Okay, but I will defend you. Nobody can pick on you. But if you talk, I'm going to tell you you're crazy. Okay. So and well, and then one of them who I was in class with, class ends schools out, She gets in her car, she tries to drop home. Boom, she gets hit by a semi and she dies. And well, none of the Pentecostals are able to raise her from the dead, even though they're teaching. Seems to teach that I wonder, I wonder what happened? Say, there's just another piece of evidence that says, See, your whole system is fraudulent.

20:43 But I do know good people can be pulled into it. I just don't understand it. And when I say and do crazy things, you're like, I just don't understand that that's the way life works. But I don't want to sit here and pretend and give you some like, oh, I'm so understanding, because I just don't. I don't get it. But all right, let's see where this goes. Holly Pebbock a number of years now, and we've carried several of her outstanding books over the years. I've asked Holly to join me for just a few minutes today because many of us in the evangelical Christian community are not happy with one of President Trump's leadership picks, and that would be the head of the White House Faith Office, Paula White, otherwise known as Paula White Kine. This woman represents aberrant theology, and that's an understatement. We'll focus on that in the next minute or two. Here she represents I think we could sum it up with word of faith theology. There's some dominion theology, prosperity theology, and more.

21:42 And you heard in that introductory clip representing just some of so many aberrations. Honestly, we'd need several hours. I have featured as I said. Polly's books on air in the past, and you can learn a lot more about her. We'll say more about her podcasts a little bit later, but all info found at hollypivoc dot com. So Holly, welcome back to the program. Thank you so much. Jan, It's always a pleasure of talking with you. Give us just quickly because I think you would put Paula White into the NAAR, which stands for New Apostolic Reformation. Give us a definition, and then why is it dangerous? The New Apostolic Reformation movement is a global movement. It's a very popular movement. The people who are in this movement believe that their leaders are authoritative apostles and prophets.

22:32 They believe these apostles and prophets have extraordinary authority that their followers need to follow them so that they can receive the new revelations. These apostles and prophets claim that they're giving so that all Christians can develop miraculous powers and rise up as this end time miracle working army to take dominion of society and bring God's Kingdom to earth. They depend on these apostles and prophets the wage spiritual warfare against high ranking demons they believe are ruling over cities and nations, and we believe these apostles and prophets have blessings and miraculous powers that these believers need to come under their authority and submit to them so that they can be blessed, so they can have miraculous powers and prosperity and be heald of sicknesses and things like that.

23:14 And the teachings of this movement may sound extreme to your listeners who haven't heard of it before, but they're really making inroads into many, many churches. And that's a lot through the teachings of Bethel Church and Writing California, which is the most influential church probably right now in this movement. Bethel music and all the nur music that's coming out of the nar churches like Kill Song and Bethel Church and Jesus Culture is just the most popular music being used in churches today, even churches that aren't part of this movement. So it's a very popular movement that's really sneaky and deceptive, and it's making inroads into a lot of churches. So many people know that. Paula White Kine is a tella evangelist and a prosperity Gospel teacher. But what many people have not been aware of is that she's part of this AR or NAR movement and actually is an apostle in this movement. So that's concerning because this movement the theology is so aberant, as you have said, it's dangerous. There's been so much spiritual abuse, in division in churches and families, and just terrible fallout from the harmful teachings in this movement.

24:20 I am gonna correct something because I disagree. I don't think it's that deceptive. I don't think it's sneaky. I don't think there's anything sneaki or deceptive about it in the sense of it's right there in your face. It's insanity. I mean, it's not like they come across all nice and normal. They come across this absolutely out of their ever living minds. When they the things they say, the things they claim, the things they do, You're just like, what is this. It's it's blatantly abhorrent. It's blatantly in your face. So I don't see it as being sneaky and deceptive others may I just I just like you can you see it's it's basically as soon as you come across naar prosperity seven amountain mandate any I'll just said, I just throw it all in this umbrella, this kind of a pot of charismatic mess right. However they want to draw a little distinction, it's to me, it's just a punch in the face. You getting near. It punches you in the face and like, hey, we're here and we're different than you because we believe in this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this, and immediately God tells them this, and God speaks to them. Okay, well already it's abhorred because that destroys solo Scriptrah. God is speaking to them outside of the Bible. Then they claim authority. If you hear that that they are an apostle, you already know that's out there. Like when they start claiming that healing is guaranteed. I mean you could just it only it should only take you a couple of seconds to go, Okay, well, we're not in Kansas anymore. So I don't see it

25:53 being sneaky. It's and I don't even see it it being deceptive in the sense of it tells you what it is. I don't see them sneaking in undercover, Okay, let's sound like everyone else. And then when the moment is right, well, jump out of the closet and scare everybody. I know, they come walking in. They come walking in with the hockey mask and the sword, but carrying their you know, serial killer theology. I don't know how else to describe it. I mean, you know, the monster is there, you know, the evil villain is present. The music follows it, okay, and that's nothing about their music. I'm just saying using a kind of a movie, you know, when the bad guy is on the screen. All right, So I don't know, I don't see it being that sneaky. To me, it's pretty blatant. I mean, how long do you have to listen to Paula White to know she's out of her mind?

26:46 How long do you have to listen to Bethel and no, this is insanity? How long do you have to know? I mean how long? Now, maybe there's some cherchers out there who try to play you know that, maybe they're moving in that direction and they're not letting everyone know. But to me, it almost always becomes pretty clear pretty fast. I think there's some churches who don't want to go all in with it, they don't want to be all out against it, and they're in the middle. So maybe those churches can be a little bit more deceptive. Maybe I've heard you separated from today's Pentecostal movement, even you've separated it from today's charismatic movement, and you put it in almost a third category that would be NAAR New Apostolic Reformation. Am I right there?

27:31 Yes, I'm glad you're pointing that out. These teachings and then our movement are not standard historic Pentecostal or charismatic teachings. This is where I disagree. You can try to separate it from charismatic theology all day. You go ahead, I know everyone does. You don't get to NAR without the charismatic. You don't get there. You know, it's like you call it a you know, the argument always is, well, marijuana is the gateway drug. If you smoke marijuana and next thing you know, you're gonna be shooting heroin, you're gonna be smoking crack, You're gonna you know, it's the gateway drug. It's the gateway drug. Okay, well, then charismatic is Charismatic theology is the gateway drug. You don't get You're not gonna get to NAR without going through charismatic land. Okay, You're not gonna get there. So I don't like the destroying the distinction. Here's the thing. Stay away from anything charismatic.

28:24 Stay if it even sounds charismatic, run for your ever living life. Just get in the car and dry. It would be better to just take your car drive off a cliff than get anywhere near charismatic. Don't get near charismatic, you don't get near NAR. I don't like separating it. Maybe from a technical standpoint, whether there's some charismatics who's not NAR, there's still charismatics there. That's still insanity. It's still what are some of the key foundations of charismatic God guarantees healing the You get extra power by getting the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is sub sequent to your salvation. Let me say, oh, God speaks to you and and visions or dreams or two tongues, I mean it's you. You're You're walking right into NAR territory.

29:12 So I I don't I don't see it. I don't see it that way anyway at all. I don't see it. I don't see it anyway at all. I'm sorry getting my daughter's calling me. She always calls me when I'm live on the air, So I know you you can separate it if it makes you feel good, and you need to make a chart. How can we say it charismatic, the Charismatic movement, the Charismatic theology is the mother and the NAR is. It's it's evil child, it's the evil offspring of the Charismatic movement. I don't I'm not gonna separate it out no way, no no, no, no, no no no no no no. I again, maybe historically you can, but maybe maybe I will challenge myself and say, say, you can make an argument to me, but I'm just going I will always push back and just say, well, you can try to draw a distinction, but guess what, if you're not near charismatic world, you don't get anywhere near NAR.

30:18 Very extreme, and many Pentecostals and Charismatics are very concerned about this movement because the teachings are so extreme, and they've actually come into many Pentecostal and Charismatic churches and repavoc and cause church splits, and so many of the people who support the work that my co author Doug Givan and I have done on this movement are Pentecostals and Charismatics and pastors of Pentecostal and Charismatic churches. Because this movement has been so destructive. I see, I would not be able to tolerate that for five seconds. If you're charismatic griping about the NAR, I would be The problem is your entire philological system. You're complaining about the NAR. Your entire cares Sthmatic theological system is a fraud. Your entire charismatic system is a mess.

31:05 Stop worrying about NAR. Looking in your own house, Okay, give me look at all the things that have been a part of the charismatic movement since the beginning of the charismatic movement. You just look at all the crazy things that has arisen. Why do all these crazy things come out of the charismatic movement. Why Because the charismatic movement is the poison. The Charismatic movement is the cancer. You could say, well, this is a different kind of cancer, it's still a cancer, and the cancer is the Charismatic movement. What do you say to those who might say, look, President Trump, he's listening to a Christian. Why do we even care what the theology is. Why can't we be happy that a Christian represents us in the White House?

31:54 Why worry about some of the details and some of the details you've just given us, but there still setting that aside and say, let's just be grateful at least she believes as an evangelical and that we all must be born again. Christians need to be more discerning. They need to realize that not everyone who claims to represent biblical Christianity does actually represent biblical Christianity, and that's very important. So many people will think, like you said, Jan that we should just celebrate that there's a Christian in the White House working on our behalf. But the problem is, just because she professes to be a biblical Christian does not mean that that's what she's actually representing.

32:35 And she's bringing along with her many leaders. In this movement into the White House and to President Trump's circles to advise him. So it's important. Doctrine matters, theology matters. It has implications because as I've mentioned, there's been so much spiritual abuse, so much division, people walking away from their faith because of the terrible teachings in this movement. So what you blieve matters. Just going to play a SoundBite here, folks. I think the Bible is pretty clear. One reference would be one Timothy chapter six, where nobody has seen God, nobody has the privilege of seeing his face, and paul was clear about that. Maybe there's chapter in verse where the exception is paul A White because she has gone to the throne room of God and seen him, if not face to face, she has certainly been right in his presence.

33:30 And I literally went to the throne room of God. I won't say much, but I'll say something that's important for me to teach you here today. So in that divine encounter, I don't know how long I was there. I just know that kind of power is almost impossible for a natural body to contain. It. As I went to the throne room of God, first I saw there was a mist that was coming off the water. And I went to the Throne of God. And I didn't see God's face clearly, but I saw the face of God. It wasn't a clear not like I could see your face clearly. But I knew it was the face of God.

34:12 And as God begin, he put a mantle on me, and it was a very distinct mantle. I had no idea. That Apostle had prophesied. I think you said that there was a mantle that was coming upon me, that there was a new mantle coming upon me. And there was a mantle, and I saw it very distinctly. The color was like a goldish, but it was a yellowish goldish, a little bit different than your scarf, a little bit brighter than your scarf there. And then I saw the earth for a moment, and he brought me back, and he put me in certain places, one being the White House. If you just joined me, you are listening to understanding the time.

34:55 Now, See when I hear that, I don't hear NAR. I hear charismatic. I've been hearing that kind of craziness since I became a Christian, all through the eighties, the nineties, the two thousands, way before the NAR was it. That's just normal, crazy, crazy, crazy charismatic stories about seeing God and being brought here and shown this and shown that and shown I mean, it's to me, it's charismatic. One oh one, Why are we drawing a distinction? See, the problem is the NAR I guess went to extreme, went to extreme. But every time Christians try to fight the extremes within the charismatic world, they never want to go to the root of the problem, which is charismatic theology at its very basis. Stut. We always want to go, oh, the Vineyard movement went too far, or this went too far, or this went too far. It's because it all comes from the same poison, the charismatic movement. That what you hear that, You're like, oh, that's nar. No, that's called charismatic theo theology speaking teaching. And it's been going on well as long as I've been a Christian, I've heard it.

36:05 Over All you had to do is just turn on Christian television and see the charismatic televangelists. And they all had these same kind of crazy stories. It's not literally nothing new. You could get Charisma magazine and look at the stories in there about who I was taken to the throne room of God and I saw this, and I saw that, and God told me this, and God told me that, and this is going to happen, and this is going to happen it's there's literally nothing unique about that at all in the charismatic world. I'm the radio I'm jan Mark Hill have on the line here from Alaska Hollypiviic. Learn more at hollypiviic dot com. Look into her brand new podcast on all the podcast platforms. Holly, give me your thoughts on what you just heard.

36:49 Yes, So, it's very common for people who claim to be apostles in this New Epistolic Reformation movement to claim that they went to the throne room of Heaven, or were visited by Jesus Christ personally, or had all these type of encounters. And that's because in the eyes of their followers, that affirms that they are indeed an apostle. So these type of claims are very common. You made a comment three four minutes ago, and I think you made a reference to Bethel Church that's ready in California, and that's the organizations that's spearheading this NAAR New Apostolic Reformation movement. And Holly, I've done programming and you've interviewed people, because this movement is infiltrating churches at a phenomenal rate, as scary type of rate. They have global influence, and you would be one of the first to you've written about the global influence that they have the modern day apostles and prophets. But again, this infiltration of churches, And again do you think that the infiltration is happening because there's just a death of discernment and the churches some anyway are letting almost anything in.

38:00 That is the case that there is a huge lack of discernment among Christians today. That's one reason I started my podcast was to equip Christians to learn how to become more discerning. People don't have biblical knowledge, so they can't detect when these teachings are not biblical. Sadly, people don't know how to read the Bible in context, and so when the apostles and profits in this movement take a Bible verse and rip it out of context and claim it supports one of their Avran teachings, many people, unfortunately can't even see how the Bible is being misused. And I think, see, now this goes Sorry, my microphone got messed up there. See now, this is exactly what I was talking about at the beginning. See, going after all this abhorrent theology she's talking about they take a verse, they take it out of context. People don't how to read the Bible in context. What do I constantly review sermons from churches that would be considered good churches, And what do we see over and over and over ripping verses context, making Isaiah forty through fifty five say things that hasn't it's not even saying, taking things like the Jesus in a storm and making the storm about your life and my life and all of these things. It happens so frequently. Forget the crazy churches, we can't get the Bible right, and the so called good churches, there's no understanding of herman nutics. There's no understanding of how to do exo Jesus anywhere close there's is of Jesus turning passages into allegory, ripping them out of context, making them about us, forgetting the original recipients. This is every

39:34 sermon I review, we find the same problems. And we're not even in the crazy world. We're in the normal, supposed good churches who've all signed a statement saying they agree with the statement of faiths say on sermonaudio, which is against the charismatic movement. So they're opposed to the charismatic movement. They're opposed to that entire world. But there it's the problem is Hermaeutics has been drug out back, We've shot at fifty seven times, has bled out. It's dead, and the church plays these weird, little loose games with scripture later being everyone vulnerable. So if this pastor can rip scriptures out of context, make it say things or not, then how far of a step is it that these people go even a step further and make us say these verses out of context, say whatever they want. The point is Bible hermoneutics in the modern church, as everyone does what is right in their own eyes. There's no rules, there's no nothing governing it. Nobody can agree on anything.

40:28 We can't seem to figure out one verse. Everyone thinks they know what it means. Everyone thinks they're an expert. It's just anarchy. So that's how you get to the NAAR. That's how you get to the charismatic movement. I'm not gonna blame the charismatic movement. I'm gonna blame the good churches who can't seem to figure out how to handle scripture. The good churches can't even under we can't even agree on what baptism is or is and who's it for, what it's not for? Is it by immersions, by sprinklings, for babies or for only believers? Good churches can't even figure that out. Is repent it's a change of mind? Or is a change behavior? We can't even figure that out. We can't even figure out the proper distinction between long and gospel. We cannot figure out if salvation is truly proven and base, Oh what Jesus did? Or I have to do something. We can't figure out literally anything, And we want to yell at the charismatics as being whacked out.

41:17 Start with the good churches who can't figure out anything, Then well how far of a drive If you're like, well, none of these people can figure anything out. They can't agree. The Baptists disagree with the presby, Presbyterians disagree with the Lutherans disagree with it. The reform disagree with the non reform. Nobody can agree. Everyone argues everyone thinks they're right. Okay, well, then at least the charismatics they got maybe they got better music, better worship. It seems more fun. They seem to have more zeal, They seem to have more passion, want to just go there. I can see, at least from that vantage point, how you can be. I mean, if everyone's doing what is right in their own eyes, then what's wrong with this movement? The problem is the church killed hermeneutics. We killed it.

42:01 We killed it. And all you gotta do is listen to all the sermon reviews we do. We spent all of twenty twenty four, all of twenty twenty four doing sermon reviews on the sermon's two point oh app. I challenge you people to listen to one sermon per day from that app. That app every broadcaster on that app has signed a statement of faith, and it would and if you saw that statement of faith, you'd be like, Oh, that's a good church. That's a good church rejects the charismatic movement believes in the sufficiency of scripture solo scripture. All of the things that's on there, you would be like, that's a good church. And then listen to the breaching and listen to what happens. Listen to all of the disagreement on the app that this person disagrees with this, and this one interprets it this way, and this one interprets it this way, it's just a free for all. Even though there's a statement of faith govering it, meaning even within a certain agreed upon theology, it's still chaotic when it comes to hermeneutics.

42:58 To me, what we did in twenty twenty four. Well, and then look, well, these people in the curagement in the nar they take verses out of context. Welcome to Christianity. So many of us really appreciate the many things that President Trump is doing. So this segment is not necessarily beat up on Donald Trump. We're disappointed in his discernment in this particular case here as it concerns the selection of again she is head of the faith based office in the White House. Again, this would be Paul white Kine. And I think my listeners feel a little bit helpless. I mean, they can send emails, probably not going to make any difference whatsoever, But is there anything that you are advising your followers to do as it concerns and quite frankly, this was the case in his first term as well. I believe she was head of it at that time as well. But here we are now heading way way into twenty twenty five, and this is one of the most troubling things that we're looking at.

43:56 I would think the believers need to all grow in discernment can recognize when people are being put forth like Paula White Kane, who do not represent biblical Christianity. Of course, prayer is huge. We need to pray that President Trump will bring into the Faith Office and surround himself with those of biblically sound faith. And that's one thing President Trump needs to realize is when he puts people like Paula White Kine into the White House Faith Office, then sadly he's going to lose the support of many sound Christians. So he needs to choose biblically sound Christians for those roles if he wants to maintain the support of many of those people. And I think President Trump, and I think you would agree with me, has placed some importance on wealth himself.

44:41 And he's a very successful man. Let's not take that away from him. But I wonder if he didn't transfer some of that funness for wealth onto a supposed pasture here, Paul. Is that the only problem with President Trump his fondness to wealth. Do we need to go through? Okay, you expect Trump to have discernment and just see, this is what the messed up thing about Christianity and politics. Well, they need to get people who are sound, or he may lose support of those Christians who are sound in their theology. And then he puts someone who's sound in their theology, he'll lose support from all the people who supposedly aren't sound in theology. And who gets determined who's sound in theology. Okay, it just turns into chaos. And you know, that's where the whole political thing or whatever.

45:25 So they still want to be like, you know, they're still pro Trump, but they're just like just you know, maybe he just kind of got a little confused here. Whatever. Okay, that's frightening that anyone. It's just frightening to me. It's frightening whenever Christianity begins to have an influence on politics, leading it to possible some down the road towards Christian nationalism and some craziness like that. I want the church and politics as separate as possible for many countless reasons. But okay, let's let them go a little bit further. And then I'll go through some of the issues with nar and see, because we're almost out of time. We'll just see we can go a little bit further here.

46:05 Well, White, who's all about money? I could play a dozen clips to emphasize that I won't because our time is so limited. Yeah. Paula White Kine has said that President Trump called her out of the blue back in twenty fifteen. He had apparently listened to some of her messages and really liked what she had to say, and that's when he first reached out to her. Then she served as his spiritual advisor during both terms. I imagine what really resonated with him was her prosperity gospel message that the emphasis on health and success and wealth and all of these things would be very appealing given what we know of the things that President Trump really prioritizes. And here's what I think concerns me. Give me your feedback.

46:48 But it's what's known as the seven Mountain mandate. Now in the NAR, in the New Apostolic Reformation, there are seven categories that members of that movement feel they must dominate, and they would be politics, business, media, faith, family, arts, and education. I'll say that again, politics, business, media, faith, family, arts, and education. That would be the seven Mountain mandate. So they would like to dominate politics as well. I don't know if this plays in, but it would fit in with the seven Mountain mandate of taking dominion over all of these categories, starting with politics. The leaders and then our movement absolutely have viewed President Trump as a means of enacting their seven Mountain mandate.

47:35 Many profits in the New Apostolic Reformation have prophesied. They've said that God has revealed that the way the Church is supposed to take dominion of the earth under the leadership of the apostles and prophets is by taking control of those seven major societal institutions that you named, and the prize of all the mounds, the emphasis is the politics, the government Mountain, and of all nations in the earth. The emphasis is the US government and getting to the top of that the role of president, because that is seen as the most powerful office in all of the earth. Many people like at Bethel Church and Reading. You can see pictures of them with President Trump and the White House praying with him at prayer gathering. And Bethel Church and Reading is one of the churches that is pursuing this seven Mountain mandate and teaches this, and so they absolutely see President Trump as they're hoping that he's a means to fulfill that mandate.

48:26 Well, they're also hoping to bring Heaven to earth, and that's called dominion theology, that we can in fact make earth almost I guess, in perfection of heaven. They do believe very strongly in a coming revival. I think they feel that is at the door. My Bible says that happens during the seven year tribulation, that rather the Church is in the stage of Laodicea as we speak, or apostasy, not headed for revival. And Holly, I know you would confirm that again. Dominion and then a coming revival are two big factors in the movement. And our leaders teach that it's the task of the Church to take dominion of the earth. And they believe that there will be something called a billion soul harvests that their prophets have prophesied that over a billion people will convert to Christianity. But that will be because the apostles and prophets are doing all these amazing miracles that will shock in awe everyone. They'll be televised and under the leadership of the apostles and prophets this global revival will occur that will allow the church to then take dominion.

49:29 And again this billion man, billion person revival, harvest of souls. I've been hearing about this what forever in the charismatic world. So again, there's not anything they said that makes me go ooh. In ar is so different than charismatic. It's the it's the same poison. I don't know how else to drive that home. If you want to fix, if you want to if you're going to stop worrying about all these offshoots of insanity, go to the root of the insanity. It's charismatic theology. It is poison, it is evil, it is messed up. Run for your ever living life, folks.

50:11 There's so much in this movement that I think you need to learn about. And I'm going to drive you once again to Holly's website hollypivoc that's spelled pivc hollypivoc dot com or tap into her new podcast on the podcast platforms, but her books and her website you can learn about this movement. I'm sorry to be blunt here trying to take over not just a church, but the world. And again, our concern is that one of the leading spokeswomen for the movement, Paula White Kine, is not just a member of the Faith Based Office, but the head of President Trump's Faith based Office. So again, these are things to be concerned about, to pray about. And when you think of some of the other options that could be in that position, from Jack Kibbs to Gary Hamrick to so many more that we could name, we just find it a tragedy that.

51:03 Jack Hibbs insane. So no, see, even right there, Jack Kibbs, I mean we remember, that's the one the only time I've ever reviewed a sermon that in the middle, I said, that's it, I'm done, And I said I would never review another sermon by him, and wouldn't stop listening to him because that's how bad. So even right there, I don't even agree with them, because see crazy, the cops are coming here, the sirens in the background, they're coming here. They're like, that guy's going to lose his mind, right, all right, So let's do this. Let's do this again. You can go understanding the Times, Jan Markel, you should go listen to it. You can listen to the rest of it. I'm going to go through this relatively quick so if you're taking notes, you need to write fast. Here's some of the key issues that we need to be concerned with. Number one right, Here are some of the key issues ready Biblical error. The NAR New Apostolic Reformation adds new revelation and apostles beyond scripture and undermines solo scriptor. The charismatic movement has been doing this. Forget the NAR. The charismatic movement's been doing this. They've added new revelation. God said this to me, and just let it be known. That's not just in the charismatic world.

52:09 In churches that claim not to be charismatic, you can listen to sermons on sermonaudio. God said this to me. God told me this. God said this. God told me this. God said this. God told me this. God said this. Unless the next words out of your mouth this scripture. God did not say anything to you. You're hearing things, you're imagining things. You're taking your thoughts to be God's thoughts, and your thoughts are not God's thoughts. That's why we have a written revelation outside of ourselves. The only way to hear from God is to read his word. The end the canon is closed. Revelation has seized, all right, So that's a problem throughout the church, all right. Now the apostles may be a step further, but the New Revelation, it's the constant in the charismatic world, and even in most evangelical church, they constantly claim God told him this, God told him this, God showed them this. Right, So there's the biblical error. They add New Revelation the philological error.

53:06 It teaches dominionism, claiming Christians must rule earthly systems before Christ returns. Well, even people who don't hold to dominionism, even if their eschatology may hold to a different system. Christians have been trying to dominate things forever. They don't they want They wanted MTV removed from the air. They wanted to ban certain music. They want books taken out, they want books burned, they want the Christians are always trying to dominate society, to make society be more Christian friendly. They want people to be forced to live like Christians who are not Christians. Christians have been doing that. Forget Charismatics, forget the n R. Christians in general want some to dominate society. They want to take over. They want they almost want some form of theocracy. They want some form of Christian nationalism, and Christians have been doing that going all the way back to the eighties to Great Satanic Panic, all the things Christians have tried to do. I've watched it over and over and over and over and over again.

54:05 So there's nothing even unique really about the NAR about that, or even the Seven Mountain mandate. So there's a biblical error, there's a philological error, hermeneutical error. The Seven Mountain teaching is based on severe misinterpretation and misapplication of scripture. Well, Christians in general have hermeneutical errors of great significance, and we talk about them all the time. So there's nothing unique about the Charismatic movement or the NAR when it comes to hermoneutical error. That's just in general and Christianity. Nobody wants to really care about how to get to the text. Logical error. It confuses descriptive Biblical text with prescriptive mandates. The Charismatics do it all the time. NAR does it all the time. Your church probably does it.

54:51 Takes passages that are descriptive and they treat them as being prescriptive. These are the errors that are true throughout Christianity and throughout the world adds basically extra revelation teaches dominionism in some way, shape or form. And there's hermeneutical errors where you miss interpret scripture and then they just confused descriptive passages with prescriptive and this presents that false cause and effect between cultural control and spiritual transformation. Those are just some of the key issues. Now, if we want to go outline some of these errors biblical errors, restoration of apostles and prophets. God is restoring the offices of apostles and prophets with authority equal to that of the early Church apostles. Now, this may be the one unique thing about NAR. There's been many other charismatics that have done the same thing. Back when I was in the military, I worked with two men who claimed to be apostles, and I was like, you guys are out of your ever living mind. Okay, you're crazy. And then I told you the story about how they told a woman she was going to be healed to cancer. Of course she died, and of course they went and hid because they were liars. Okay, but don't even get me started.

55:59 So that's kind of a major claim in this world, and this in the na world and some pentecostal or in charismatic world. All right, so we could talk about that problem, the new revelation problem. We've talked about it, and then the Seven Mountain theology. So really, if we want to kind of break these errors down, you got the restoration of apostles and prophets. You got the new revelation claim. God gives ongoing authoritative revelation through the prophets and apostles. But to be fair, the charismatics believe that God is speaking to anyone and everyone, so everyone has ongoing revelation, and they all believe their revelation is authoritative. So whatever they may believe, the revelation through the apostles and their prophets is more authoritative. But they all claim to hear from God and God speaks to them, all right, And so it basically destroys Sola script Torah, the Seven Mountain theology. It's based on Isaiah two to two and Revelation seventeen nine. Christians must conquer seven mountains. Religion, family, education, government, media, arts, entertainment, business.

57:01 Both passages are misapplied Allegorically, neither teaches cultural dominion. Mountains and revelation refer to kingdoms of the beasts, not spheres or Christian conquest. Right then we talked about dominionism. I could just go through all of these issues. We talked about the hermeneutical errors. Some of the things they do with spiritualize Old Testament texts like Isaiah two. They ignore historical grammatical context, audience, and redemptive timeline. They pull verses out of context to support dominionism. All nations shall flow to it as a call for Christian takeover of society. There's kind of the abuse the text with their typology.

57:43 I could go through all of these things. I could go through all of these things. The Nar and seven Mountain Mandate represents a significant departure from historic Christianity and both theology and practice. It replaces scriptural sufficiency with modern revelation, supplies the Kingdom of God to political and cultural conquest. It turns the gospel from good news about Christ's work into a program of human effort to redeem culture. It fails to distinguish law and gospel, leading to legalism, confusion, and false hope and earthly success. A faithful Biblical response is to return to a Christ's centered teaching, embrace the already not yet nature of the kingdom and recognize the call to be faithful witnesses, not political conquerors, and a fallen world. All right, And then if you want to talk about how this movement has infiltrated the Trump administration, Oh, I could go all the way idea, I could cover lots of things here. Naar dominionism taught that Christians must take back the Seven Mountains of culture, especially government and media, which aligned perfectly with Trump's message about draining the swamp and fighting the deep state, giving some kind of prophetic legitimacy.

58:57 Many NAR leaders prophesied Trump's psidency. Before twenty sixteen, Christian nationalism synergy. NAR teachings merged with Christian nationalism rhetoric, fueling the belief that America has a divine destiny and that Trump was key to its restoration. Some of the key figures here, what's his name, Lance? I always forget his last name, Lance. What is it? Let me look here, Lance wall Now? I think is how you say his name? Lance Wallnow is a leading proponent of the Seven Mountain mandate. He declared Trump is God's chaos candidate, compared him to Cyrus, and Isaiah forty five wrote God's Chaos Candidate, which promoted Trump as chosen by God to reclaim America. Paula White, Trump's spiritual advisor, Dutch Sheets, an Naar apostotic leader who held prayer events and prophetic declarations supporting Trump's presidency. Then you've got Cindy Jacobs, Chuck Pierce, other high profile apostles prophets in the an Naar movement who actively prophesied Trump's rise and reelection, some even after the twenty twenty defeat.

1:00:08 So yeah, they're all over the Trump administration. All right, they're all over it. So I'll just say this, The New Apostolic Reformation and the Seven Mountain Men date had a tangible and ongoing troubling influence on the Trump administration, fusing spiritual warfare with political strategy, elevating prophecy over scripture, and encouraging a dominionist vision of governance rather than serving assault and light in the world. NAR influenced Christians sought to rule the world through a theocratic vision of power and prophetic endorsement. The result were deeply confused. The results were a deeply confused witness fractured theology and a politicized gospel that strayed far away from the cross. That's how Ai describes the influence of NAR and Seven Mountain Mandate on the Trump administration. And obviously it does not give it a a positive review. It gives it a negative one.

1:01:19 So there you go. We didn't get far, we didn't get more into it. But what I want you to see is we've got the charismatic world that's already fraudulent. You can see these offspring nar right, they gave birth to these, you know, evil theologies. To me, it's just same old charismatic. But if you want to just repackage it, call it something different so you can draw some kind of thilological distinction to make you feel better, go ahead. It's the same stuff, just dressed up with a little bit of different language. It's just maybe an evolution of just your normal charismatic nonsense. It's there, Okay, I've been condemning it forever. To me, there's nothing new or unique about it. Everyone like it's so new unique. I think it's the same old stuff. What is dangerous, though, is it's influencing our government and its Seven Mountain Mandate this dominionism, this merging of Christianity with politics, this Christian nationalism, all of that craziness that is now going into other churches and into the minds of many Christians who hold in to these ideas. And well, that's why the church has been so politically hijacked. So was the church politically hijacked or was it philologically hijacked which made it vulnerable to the political hijacking? Is it the seven Mountain mandate, dominionism, nationalism,

1:02:49 all of this stuff corrupted the church, making the church vulnerable for the political hijacking. Did we just go there and open the door and welcome in all in, not really worrying about where some of the theological origins of some of these ideas are. Because many Christians are very they sound very like seven Mountain mandate, They sound very dominionism, They sound very like a lot of this stuff, even though they are in churches that don't believe it. When it comes to politics, they talk like it. And that is the troubling part. The other part is just your normal historical charismatic nonsense. This other stuff is the political hijacking of the American church. That's the problem. And maybe we have the heretical hijacking of the American government. That is troubling. I don't want the government to be hijacked by heresy, and I don't want the church to be hijacked by politics. All right, go listen to Understanding the Times.

1:04:03 Get the name of the person being interviewed. Check out her website, her podcast, If she wrote books, you can check those out. And you say, well, what should we. Be looking for? I wouldn't be. I'm not so much looking out for NAR seven mountain mandate within the Christian world. What I'm looking for is how this gets merged with politics, the political thinking of American Christians, how they've replaced Christianity with this political It's a political spiritual hybrid. It's a mutation. And you may not be able to classify theologically saying that's nar that's charismatic, but it's such a political merging of Christianity with political ideology that to me is the issue.

1:04:51 All Right, I'll stop there. Thanks for listening. Everyone, have a great Friday evening, a great weekend. Godless,