Jan. 10, 2025

Mountain Meadows Massacre

Mountain Meadows Massacre

A discussion about the history behind the new Netflix series, American Primeval

Spreaker Apple Podcasts Spotify PocketCasts Amazon Music Overcast Audible Castro iHeartRadio Castbox Podchaser TuneIn Deezer Pandora RadioPublic Podcast Addict RSS Feed YouTube Fountain PlayerFM Goodpods Podverse Podyssey Breaker Podurama Audacy JioSaavn
Spreaker podcast player icon Spreaker Spreaker Apple Podcasts podcast player icon Apple Podcasts Apple Podcasts Spotify podcast player icon Spotify Spotify PocketCasts podcast player icon PocketCasts PocketCasts Amazon Music podcast player icon Amazon Music Amazon Music Overcast podcast player icon Overcast Overcast Audible podcast player icon Audible Audible Castro podcast player icon Castro Castro iHeartRadio podcast player icon iHeartRadio iHeartRadio Castbox podcast player icon Castbox Castbox Podchaser podcast player icon Podchaser Podchaser TuneIn podcast player icon TuneIn TuneIn Deezer podcast player icon Deezer Deezer Pandora podcast player icon Pandora Pandora RadioPublic podcast player icon RadioPublic RadioPublic Podcast Addict podcast player icon Podcast Addict Podcast Addict RSS Feed podcast player icon RSS Feed RSS Feed YouTube podcast player icon YouTube YouTube Fountain podcast player icon Fountain Fountain PlayerFM podcast player icon PlayerFM PlayerFM Goodpods podcast player icon Goodpods Goodpods Podverse podcast player icon Podverse Podverse Podyssey podcast player icon Podyssey Podyssey Breaker podcast player icon Breaker Breaker Podurama podcast player icon Podurama Podurama Audacy podcast player icon Audacy Audacy JioSaavn podcast player icon JioSaavn JioSaavn

A discussion about the history behind the new Netflix series, American Primeval

WEBVTT

1
00:00:02.439 --> 00:00:06.160
Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is

2
00:00:06.200 --> 00:00:13.720
the Theology Central podcast making Theology Central. Good afternoon everyone.

3
00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:19.679
It is Friday, January the tenth, twenty twenty five. It

4
00:00:19.760 --> 00:00:23.440
is currently twelve eight pm Central time, and I am

5
00:00:23.440 --> 00:00:27.519
coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located

6
00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:31.719
right here in Abilene, Texas. I'm sorry, I'm a little distracted.

7
00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:36.079
I was trying to make sure my iPad was looking

8
00:00:36.119 --> 00:00:38.399
like it was about to delete all of my notes,

9
00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:41.280
and I've got so many notes here, so I'm sitting

10
00:00:41.280 --> 00:00:43.679
here trying to give you the date. Good afternoon everyone,

11
00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:45.600
it is Friday. And then all of a sudden, like

12
00:00:45.640 --> 00:00:47.920
whoa wha wait wait wait, wait wait, my iPad's about

13
00:00:47.960 --> 00:00:50.000
to delete all of my notes. Stop stop all right,

14
00:00:50.079 --> 00:00:55.079
so let's do that again. Good afternoon everyone. It is Friday,

15
00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:59.759
January the tenth, twenty twenty five. It is now twelve

16
00:01:00.280 --> 00:01:02.960
nine pm Central time, and I am still coming to

17
00:01:03.039 --> 00:01:07.719
you live from the Theology Central studio located right here

18
00:01:07.959 --> 00:01:11.120
in Abilene, Texas. So, if you have a notebook, if

19
00:01:11.159 --> 00:01:12.959
you have something you can take notes, I want you

20
00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:16.760
to write down two separate things. Are you ready. The

21
00:01:16.799 --> 00:01:19.200
first thing I want you to write down. Is this

22
00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:28.400
American Prime Evil. American Prime Evil. That's American. I'm pretty

23
00:01:28.400 --> 00:01:30.640
sure you can figure out how to spell that Prime evil.

24
00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:36.840
P R I M E VA L. American Prime Evil.

25
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.599
I want you to write that down, right. The other

26
00:01:41.640 --> 00:01:44.000
thing I want you to write down is the Mountain

27
00:01:44.799 --> 00:01:50.159
Meadows Massacre. So the first thing is American Prime Evil.

28
00:01:50.400 --> 00:01:58.560
The second thing is Mountain Meadows massacre. All right, one

29
00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:02.040
more time, American Prime Evil. Write that down. The second

30
00:02:02.040 --> 00:02:10.240
thing Mountain Meadows massacre, the Mountains Meadows massacre. Now, the

31
00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:12.879
first thing I gave you American Primeval. That is a

32
00:02:12.960 --> 00:02:15.479
new show on Netflix. Now, let me just say this

33
00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:20.439
right from the beginning. It is violent. It is brutal.

34
00:02:20.840 --> 00:02:23.360
It is a show that many will not want to watch,

35
00:02:23.560 --> 00:02:26.159
may even have a hard time even trying to watch it.

36
00:02:26.479 --> 00:02:30.159
By no means, is this like a show that you're, hey,

37
00:02:30.400 --> 00:02:32.479
this is a show we should watch in church. It

38
00:02:32.599 --> 00:02:36.560
is adult, It is violent, it is explicit. It is

39
00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:40.319
somewhat disturbing. Effect. It is very disturbing. But it may

40
00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:43.719
be disturbing. It may be more disturbing for me for

41
00:02:43.800 --> 00:02:47.400
a different reason than maybe it's disturbing to you. Some

42
00:02:47.439 --> 00:02:51.639
of you will find the violence, the language, You may

43
00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:56.039
find the brutality. You may find that disturbing. I find

44
00:02:56.080 --> 00:03:00.680
it disturbing for a whole different reason because America Primeval

45
00:03:00.680 --> 00:03:04.439
to show on Netflix that made its debut yesterday, January

46
00:03:04.479 --> 00:03:08.919
the ninth, I've watched two episodes of it so far. Well,

47
00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:13.639
what disturbs me is that it is showing, at least

48
00:03:13.639 --> 00:03:18.879
in a fictionalized way, something that actually happened in history,

49
00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:24.840
which is the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Now, American Primeval is

50
00:03:24.879 --> 00:03:30.039
a fictionalized story, right. It has characters, it has things

51
00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:33.360
going on in their life, so that's fictionalized, but the

52
00:03:33.400 --> 00:03:36.800
backdrop of it is historical fact, at least in these

53
00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:40.120
first two episodes, and that is the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

54
00:03:41.280 --> 00:03:44.159
And the Mountain Meadows Massacre. If you've ever read about it,

55
00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:47.319
if you've ever studied it, it should bother you, it

56
00:03:47.360 --> 00:03:50.919
should disturb you, and most importantly, we should learn something

57
00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:52.960
from it. So what I'm going to do is, I'm

58
00:03:52.960 --> 00:03:56.159
gonna give you a little background of the American Primeval show,

59
00:03:57.520 --> 00:04:00.520
kind of lead us into the history of the Mountain

60
00:04:00.560 --> 00:04:04.560
Meadows Massacre. Then we're gonna look at well some lessons

61
00:04:04.599 --> 00:04:08.080
that I think should be taken from all of this.

62
00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:11.280
Now again, I am not telling you to go watch

63
00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:14.400
American Primeval. I'm not telling you to watch it. If

64
00:04:14.400 --> 00:04:17.480
you do, you probably definitely don't want your children anyone

65
00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:21.920
where around it. And if you're easily offended or you

66
00:04:21.920 --> 00:04:25.759
don't want to see something brutal, violent and explicit, then

67
00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:28.279
by all means, do not watch it. Once you start

68
00:04:28.319 --> 00:04:30.759
the show, right up in the top left hand corner,

69
00:04:30.920 --> 00:04:33.800
Netflix usually kind of gives you a little warning about

70
00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:36.160
all of its the content in it. You're gonna see

71
00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:38.199
a list of things and you're gonna be like, Okay,

72
00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:40.519
maybe not. And it's perfectly okay if you don't want

73
00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:44.279
to watch it. But because it's connected to the Mountain

74
00:04:44.319 --> 00:04:47.480
Meadows massacre, I think you need to know about it

75
00:04:47.519 --> 00:04:50.600
for this reason. If you know anything about the Mountain

76
00:04:50.639 --> 00:04:56.920
Meadows massacre, you know that's connected to Mormonism. So then

77
00:04:56.920 --> 00:05:05.120
therefore it's connected to religion, to scripture, to God, and

78
00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:07.639
so therefore we definitely need to talk about it on

79
00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:11.240
a podcast called Theology Central. All right, so are you ready?

80
00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:16.120
Here's a little bit about the show Netflix New Some

81
00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:20.439
would refer to it as a Western show Netflix New drama.

82
00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:23.759
However you would like to classify it, I'm going to

83
00:05:23.839 --> 00:05:26.879
be I'm borrowing from two news articles. I saw two

84
00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:32.040
news articles this morning about American Primeval and the connection

85
00:05:32.199 --> 00:05:35.000
it has with the Mountain Meadows massacre. I was waiting

86
00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:38.800
for some article to connect it to the historical fact.

87
00:05:39.040 --> 00:05:42.120
The first articles I saw was just reviewing the show

88
00:05:42.480 --> 00:05:45.279
and most many of them did not mention the historical

89
00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:48.240
fact behind this. But here we go. Netflix new show

90
00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:55.439
American Primeval takes place in eighteen fifty seven Utah Territory,

91
00:05:56.839 --> 00:06:01.680
eighteen fifty seven. The Utah Territory. Now at the time

92
00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:04.720
eighteen fifty seven, we're still four years out from the

93
00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:07.720
American Civil War and it won't be another forty two

94
00:06:07.879 --> 00:06:13.439
years until Utah officially becomes a state. And this lawless land,

95
00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:19.120
tensions don't just run high between the white colonizers and

96
00:06:19.199 --> 00:06:24.959
the Native Americans, but between various rival indigenous tribes, the

97
00:06:25.160 --> 00:06:30.800
US Army, and the Mormon churches ruthless, which I think

98
00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:34.240
the best way to pronounce it would be the Novu legion.

99
00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:38.519
All right, So let me go through this again. And

100
00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:42.759
this Netflix show, which is American Primeval. It takes place

101
00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:47.199
in eighteen fifty seven in the Utah territory. Now, once

102
00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:49.560
you go back to that time and we try to

103
00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:52.319
look at what's going on, and from a historical perspective,

104
00:06:52.519 --> 00:06:55.040
we're still four years away from the American Civil War.

105
00:06:55.560 --> 00:06:58.279
It will not be another WI. It won't be will

106
00:06:58.439 --> 00:07:02.360
It will be another forty two years until Utah officially

107
00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:06.720
becomes a state. Now, at that time in eighteen fifty seven,

108
00:07:07.319 --> 00:07:11.480
it's a lawless land, and tensions don't just run high

109
00:07:11.480 --> 00:07:16.439
between the white colonizers, those white pioneers coming across to

110
00:07:16.480 --> 00:07:21.360
find a new place to live, right, And you obviously

111
00:07:21.399 --> 00:07:24.079
have the Native American tribes who are not so happy

112
00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:28.439
of seeing wagon trains coming their way into their land.

113
00:07:29.160 --> 00:07:32.560
That would make obviously sense. But you also have rival

114
00:07:32.920 --> 00:07:38.160
You have some tensions, You have some aggression happening between

115
00:07:38.240 --> 00:07:44.240
various rival indigenous tribes. So some different tribes are fighting

116
00:07:44.279 --> 00:07:48.519
each other for probably land or whatever they're fighting over.

117
00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:51.720
But then you add into that the US Army, and

118
00:07:51.800 --> 00:07:55.319
then you add into that the Mormon Church, and they

119
00:07:55.439 --> 00:08:02.399
have a ruthless group known as the Nauvoo Legion. I

120
00:08:02.399 --> 00:08:05.399
think the Novu, I think is probably the right way

121
00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:13.000
it is spelled in a U voo. The Novu Novu Legion,

122
00:08:13.480 --> 00:08:16.000
now you may never even heard of them. I am

123
00:08:16.079 --> 00:08:18.920
not super familiar with them. I am super familiar with

124
00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:23.079
the history of this time because I love history. I'm

125
00:08:23.079 --> 00:08:28.959
not super familiar with the Novu Legion. Now the first episode, now,

126
00:08:29.120 --> 00:08:31.680
so there's a little bit of the historical context. Now

127
00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:34.279
let's step back out. Let's go back to the Netflix show.

128
00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:39.879
In the first episode of American Primeval, it is directed

129
00:08:40.360 --> 00:08:44.639
and executively produced by Peter Berg. This now, I'm going

130
00:08:44.679 --> 00:08:46.039
to give you a little bit of the story here.

131
00:08:46.039 --> 00:08:48.440
So I'm going to try not to give too many spoilers.

132
00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:51.200
I already cut some things out of how the news

133
00:08:51.279 --> 00:08:54.320
article describes this to try to protect the story. I'll

134
00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:57.240
try to be somewhat vague because I don't want to

135
00:08:57.320 --> 00:08:59.519
ruin it, just in case someone would like to see it.

136
00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:05.039
In the first episode, we pick up this story of

137
00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:09.559
a single mother. Her first name is Sarah, and her

138
00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:13.279
and her son Devin. They attempt to make their way

139
00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:17.639
from Fort Bridger to California. So you have a single mom,

140
00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:20.200
you have her son. They want to get out of

141
00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:23.080
Fort Bridger and they want to go to California, but

142
00:09:23.159 --> 00:09:25.200
for some reason, they can't hire a guide. It's not

143
00:09:25.320 --> 00:09:28.879
working out, so they team up with a wagon train

144
00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:35.080
of settlers from Arkansas and kindly Mormons making their way

145
00:09:35.159 --> 00:09:38.559
further west, so they can't she can't find anyone else.

146
00:09:38.600 --> 00:09:41.279
She finds a group of Mormons. She asks basically, hey,

147
00:09:41.399 --> 00:09:43.440
come on, let me and my son join you. We

148
00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:45.799
got to get out of here. We gotta get we

149
00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.840
we want to leave. We got to get out of here, right.

150
00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:53.600
I won't give you any backstory or anything there. However,

151
00:09:54.440 --> 00:09:59.919
before the end of American Primeval episode one, tensions erun

152
00:10:00.399 --> 00:10:05.440
between the pioneers briefly camping in Utah Territory, and the

153
00:10:05.559 --> 00:10:11.919
local Mormon militia. Now, this is where the show now enters,

154
00:10:12.240 --> 00:10:16.879
leaves a little bit of the fiction and enters into fact. Now,

155
00:10:16.919 --> 00:10:20.240
the line does blurred. It's historical fiction, so obviously not

156
00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:24.519
everything is accurately described, but it gets us now from

157
00:10:25.039 --> 00:10:30.559
American Primeval to the Mountain Meadows Massacre, which you need

158
00:10:30.600 --> 00:10:34.960
to know about, you really do. If you're a religious

159
00:10:35.039 --> 00:10:39.399
quote unquote a Christian, and I reject Mormonism already. I

160
00:10:39.399 --> 00:10:44.360
believe that's completely fraudulent, heretical, completely, But what happens here

161
00:10:44.840 --> 00:10:52.000
is so disturbing. So here's what happens. What follows that

162
00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:54.879
set up right there right because tensions are up between

163
00:10:54.879 --> 00:10:57.960
the pioneers briefly camping in Utah Territory and the local

164
00:10:57.960 --> 00:11:05.960
Mormon militia. What follows is a grotesque massacre in which

165
00:11:06.000 --> 00:11:12.440
the Novu legion mask and dei disguise themselves as one

166
00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:19.480
of the local tribes. They murder the nonviolent settlers as

167
00:11:19.519 --> 00:11:23.480
they camp for the night. Men are scalped, women and

168
00:11:23.679 --> 00:11:27.440
children are slaughtered, and not even the Mormons amongst the

169
00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:35.519
group are spared. They slaughter everyone. These this Mormon militia,

170
00:11:36.000 --> 00:11:39.240
they disguise himself as one of the native tribes. They

171
00:11:39.279 --> 00:11:47.360
come in and slaughter everyone. Now the question is, did

172
00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:54.799
this horrific massacre really happen? Is American Primeval based on

173
00:11:54.879 --> 00:11:57.720
a true story or is it all just a figment

174
00:11:57.840 --> 00:12:04.279
of their imagination? Well, American Prime Evil? Is it based

175
00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:07.639
on a true story? Well, yes, and no, American Prime

176
00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:10.960
Evil is a work of historical fiction. However, the backdrop

177
00:12:11.000 --> 00:12:16.720
of American Prime Evil is based on reality. In eighteen

178
00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:24.600
fifty seven, Mormons disguise as Pawut that would be the

179
00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.720
name of the Native Americans, and I'm hoping I'm trying

180
00:12:28.759 --> 00:12:30.960
to be very respectful. I do not want to mispronounce

181
00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:35.320
their names. But the Pawut they disguise themselves as being

182
00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:39.559
a part of this tribe. They did massacre a group

183
00:12:39.559 --> 00:12:44.440
of settlers and a tragedy known as the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

184
00:12:45.480 --> 00:12:49.440
Fort Bridger did exist, and people did run a foul

185
00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:54.519
of Brigham Young and his ambitions for the Young Mormon faith.

186
00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:58.440
Brigham Young is kind of a central figure here. Now

187
00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:01.440
historically we can get into what is known or not known.

188
00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:05.200
There's some debate here, but there's no question the massacre occurred,

189
00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.679
and there's no question that this no Voo legion, this

190
00:13:09.799 --> 00:13:13.320
Mormon militia was very was very much behind it, and

191
00:13:13.360 --> 00:13:18.919
they did disguise, disguise themselves as the pout Native American tribe,

192
00:13:19.840 --> 00:13:23.639
which then would put the focus on them, on all

193
00:13:23.720 --> 00:13:26.879
the Native American tribes. It you can this is so

194
00:13:27.000 --> 00:13:31.440
twisted in the way they did this. Now in the show,

195
00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:37.600
the massacre is violent and brutal and explicit. It is

196
00:13:38.200 --> 00:13:41.679
man it is It is powerful to watch it unfold.

197
00:13:41.759 --> 00:13:44.879
It's somewhat disturbing to watch it unfold. And what was

198
00:13:44.919 --> 00:13:47.440
disturbing to me. Is not just because the show was violent,

199
00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:51.840
and it was because I this is historical fact. Now,

200
00:13:52.000 --> 00:13:55.679
how they describe what happened, you know, I think in

201
00:13:55.759 --> 00:13:59.240
the show it was daytime. I think in reality it

202
00:13:59.279 --> 00:14:02.200
was nighttime. I mean the obviously they take some some

203
00:14:02.399 --> 00:14:06.759
artistic license with it. But here's now a more of

204
00:14:06.799 --> 00:14:10.759
a breakdown. Now, now we're leaving the Netflix show all right,

205
00:14:10.799 --> 00:14:12.360
So we're gonna go ahead. I don't want to give

206
00:14:12.399 --> 00:14:15.279
any more information about the Netflix show American Primeval. Open

207
00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:17.840
up your Netflix app or subscribe to Netflix. You'll see

208
00:14:17.840 --> 00:14:19.919
it probably right there. It'll probably be in the top

209
00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:24.279
ten shows today, may even be up to number one

210
00:14:23.919 --> 00:14:27.879
by Friday. By today, so you can go look for it.

211
00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:30.120
You can decide, you can make your own choice whether

212
00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:32.480
you want to watch it or not. Just remember it's

213
00:14:32.600 --> 00:14:35.679
not a Christian show. It is violent and it is explicit.

214
00:14:35.720 --> 00:14:39.039
I cannot state that enough. But here's a little breakdown

215
00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:47.039
now about the historical reality. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was

216
00:14:47.080 --> 00:14:52.240
a tragic and controversial event in American history that occurred

217
00:14:52.960 --> 00:15:01.440
on September the eleventh, eighteen fifty seven and southern Utah.

218
00:15:02.320 --> 00:15:06.919
Why a wagon train of immigrants from Arkansas, known as

219
00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:11.039
the Baker Fancier Party, was traveling to California when it

220
00:15:11.080 --> 00:15:14.200
was attacked by a group of Mormon settlers and members

221
00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:21.399
of the local Pout tribe. Now this is where you

222
00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.480
get just make sure you understand this. Was it Mormons

223
00:15:24.519 --> 00:15:29.480
disguised as members of the tribe or did they utilize

224
00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:32.320
some of the tribe to assist them in the massacre?

225
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:37.480
All right, Now, remember we have two things going on here.

226
00:15:37.759 --> 00:15:43.159
The article from the news article about the show described

227
00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:48.480
them as disguising themselves as members of the Poute tribe. However,

228
00:15:48.840 --> 00:15:51.480
other sources and this in fact, that paragraph right there

229
00:15:51.519 --> 00:15:56.600
comes from artificial intelligence, it says it utilized some of

230
00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:59.919
the local Pout tribe. They weren't just disguising themselves, so

231
00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:03.159
some of them were there. The show on Netflix seems

232
00:16:03.200 --> 00:16:06.600
to show there was the way the Mormon militia disguised

233
00:16:06.600 --> 00:16:11.440
themselves really was wearing masks, and that the tribe was

234
00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.080
actually the members of the Piot tribe. So we could

235
00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.399
get into some history trying to figure that out. The

236
00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.279
news article says they disguise themselves. AI doesn't go with

237
00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:25.480
that approach. Just so that you can see sometimes when

238
00:16:25.480 --> 00:16:28.240
we're dealing with history, there's going to be sometimes a

239
00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:31.440
little difference in how the story is told. Here are

240
00:16:31.440 --> 00:16:35.279
some of the key to details context. Tensions were high

241
00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:39.320
between the US government and the Mormon community in Utah,

242
00:16:39.639 --> 00:16:42.320
led by Brigham Young, who was both the governor of

243
00:16:42.399 --> 00:16:45.679
the Utah Territory and the leader of the Church of

244
00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:48.480
Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. Now, I'm going to

245
00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:51.080
say this, I've said it a million times. I think

246
00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:53.840
there's one historical fact everyone should be able to agree on.

247
00:16:55.240 --> 00:17:01.759
Whenever church, whenever religion merges with state, when the state

248
00:17:01.960 --> 00:17:05.119
and the church merge. When there's a merging between the

249
00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:12.240
government and religion, the end result people will always die.

250
00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:16.359
That's how it has happened throughout church history. You merge

251
00:17:16.480 --> 00:17:20.480
church and state, people die. That's why I can't That's

252
00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.599
why I'm so opposed to Christian nationalism. I want the

253
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:27.200
separation of church and state to be as separated as possible,

254
00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:30.960
because once the two merge, bad things start happening, right,

255
00:17:31.119 --> 00:17:34.160
because then the church says, well, this is wrong, and

256
00:17:34.279 --> 00:17:36.519
this is wrong, and this is wrong. Then the state

257
00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:40.200
will utilize its power to punish. So then well that

258
00:17:40.359 --> 00:17:42.799
sounds great if your church is in charge. But guess

259
00:17:42.839 --> 00:17:46.240
what if the Presbyterians take over or merge with the state,

260
00:17:46.519 --> 00:17:49.160
then Baptists who won't baptize babies and believe it's wrong,

261
00:17:49.319 --> 00:17:52.319
we're gonna get punished. And we see this throughout church history.

262
00:17:52.559 --> 00:17:55.079
Or if the Catholics take over, the Protestants get. If

263
00:17:55.079 --> 00:17:58.200
the Protestants take over, the Catholics get, that's what starts happening.

264
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:01.319
People get punished, people get murdered, people get killed, people

265
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:05.240
get punished. Church and state merging is the worst thing

266
00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:09.680
that can ever happen. And what happens here? Who's in charge?

267
00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:12.839
Bring him young? What is he in charge of a

268
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:17.960
church and he's the governor of the territory? No, no

269
00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:23.160
conflict of interest there. The Mormon community was in a

270
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:26.759
defensive posture due to the Utah War, a conflict between

271
00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:31.039
federal troops and Mormon settlers. Rumors circulated that the immigrants

272
00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:33.759
were hostile to the Mormons and had ties to anti

273
00:18:33.799 --> 00:18:39.000
Mormon groups. The Baker Fancher party was besieged by attackers

274
00:18:39.000 --> 00:18:44.519
for several days at Mountain Meadows, a valley along their route.

275
00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:51.319
Now please note the Netflix show shows it happening one time.

276
00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:56.039
Many of the articles describe it as a one time event. However,

277
00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:01.640
AI classifies it and describes it as there were multiple attacks.

278
00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:05.920
That wasn't just one all right, So just so that

279
00:19:05.960 --> 00:19:09.799
you know that the immigrants initially defended themselves but eventually

280
00:19:09.839 --> 00:19:13.720
surrendered under a promise of safe passage. Now, the Netflix

281
00:19:13.759 --> 00:19:17.759
show does not show this happening, right, so ultimately they surrender,

282
00:19:17.960 --> 00:19:23.039
like hey, hey, hey, okay, we're sorry. Stop stop. This

283
00:19:23.079 --> 00:19:26.119
is where the history gets really, in some ways more disturbing.

284
00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:31.680
After surrendering, the immigrants were led away from their camp,

285
00:19:32.839 --> 00:19:41.119
separated into smaller groups, and killed. Yeah, that maybe even

286
00:19:41.119 --> 00:19:46.640
more disturbing than what the Netflix show demonstrated. Now, approximately

287
00:19:46.759 --> 00:19:52.319
one hundred and twenty men, women, and children were killed.

288
00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:58.519
Seventeen children, all under the age of seven, were spared

289
00:19:58.720 --> 00:20:03.319
and later returned to relative So seventeen children under the

290
00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:07.279
age of seven were spared and only seventeen. There were

291
00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:10.720
more children there than that, but seventeen were spared and

292
00:20:11.359 --> 00:20:13.920
under the age of seven, So that's good that they

293
00:20:13.960 --> 00:20:16.920
were spared at least that's a good thing. But one

294
00:20:17.039 --> 00:20:23.319
hundred and twenty people, men, women, and children were slaughtered.

295
00:20:26.839 --> 00:20:31.200
Now Here we go. The massacre was initially blamed on

296
00:20:31.319 --> 00:20:37.319
the Pout tribe see, but evidence pointed to significant involvement

297
00:20:37.880 --> 00:20:43.279
by Mormon settlers. Brigham Young denied prior knowledge of the attack,

298
00:20:43.519 --> 00:20:48.799
and the LDS Church has since condemned the massacre. John D. Lee,

299
00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:53.160
a Mormon leader involved in the attack, was eventually tried, convicted,

300
00:20:53.359 --> 00:20:57.160
and executed in eighteen seventy seven for his role in

301
00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:02.839
the massacre. The Meadows Massacre remains a dark chapter in

302
00:21:02.920 --> 00:21:07.640
American and Mormon history. The LDS Church has expressed regret

303
00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:11.960
for the event and has participated in efforts to memorialize

304
00:21:12.000 --> 00:21:15.640
the victims. Hey, we're so sorry this happens, and we're

305
00:21:15.680 --> 00:21:20.160
gonna do everything we can to memorialize the victims. I mean,

306
00:21:20.319 --> 00:21:25.559
we want you to remember that, well Mormons had slaughtered them. Okay,

307
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:31.119
that's I mean. The whole thing is just horrible. And

308
00:21:31.200 --> 00:21:33.240
let me make it very clear, all right. I don't

309
00:21:33.240 --> 00:21:36.039
want anyone to think that I'm misrepresenting history. What did

310
00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:39.400
I say? Whenever church and state merge, people die. Look,

311
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:43.839
the Church history is filled with people being killed, murdered,

312
00:21:43.880 --> 00:21:53.279
and dying because of well, the involvement of religion. Now,

313
00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:58.839
the site of The massacre is now a National Historic Landmark.

314
00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:01.960
So if you ever in Utah and can you want

315
00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:04.640
to find the National Historic Landmark, or if you're close

316
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:07.640
to Utah, maybe something you want to go do take

317
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.839
your children to and you can possibly explain to them

318
00:22:12.480 --> 00:22:16.799
how bad it is when church and state merge. Now,

319
00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:18.519
I know some people may not say that that's a

320
00:22:18.680 --> 00:22:21.160
major lesson from it, but I think it is. The

321
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:24.920
massacre continues to be the subject of historical research and debate,

322
00:22:25.319 --> 00:22:30.559
particularly regarding the extent of Brigham Young's involvement and the

323
00:22:30.599 --> 00:22:33.640
motivations of those who carried out the attack. There's lots

324
00:22:33.640 --> 00:22:36.920
of debate about that. Many scholars like Brigham Young had

325
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:40.279
no idea he was not involved, Others think maybe he did.

326
00:22:40.599 --> 00:22:45.359
The debate will rage on exactly what were the motivations,

327
00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:48.119
why did they do this? What led to this? These

328
00:22:48.119 --> 00:22:56.559
are important questions, but from a philological perspective, here's what

329
00:22:56.759 --> 00:22:59.799
destroys the attack and the killing of human beings of

330
00:23:00.440 --> 00:23:04.200
is the most disturbing part of the story. The second

331
00:23:04.200 --> 00:23:06.839
most important, or the most disturbing part of the story

332
00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:14.920
is that scripture and God were used by some involved

333
00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:25.039
in the massacre to justify their actions, which is probably

334
00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:28.759
one of the at least a second or third most

335
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:31.759
troubling aspect of this event. I want you to hear

336
00:23:31.799 --> 00:23:36.599
that they utilize scripture that utilize God to justify a massacre,

337
00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:49.720
a slaughter, the misuse of religion, the misuse of religious belief.

338
00:23:52.000 --> 00:23:59.119
It really serves as an example and how scripture and

339
00:23:59.240 --> 00:24:09.880
theology can be twisted to support violence, to support fear,

340
00:24:11.319 --> 00:24:18.720
to support prejudice, bigotry, hatred, to support and to really

341
00:24:19.240 --> 00:24:24.079
serve as kind of a prop for your political motivations.

342
00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:32.079
And in many cases those political motivations, those personal bias

343
00:24:32.119 --> 00:24:35.759
and prejudice that you're using scripture to justify. Ultimately, those

344
00:24:35.839 --> 00:24:42.319
things take precedent over genuine faith, over a genuine concern

345
00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:47.680
for trying to understand the scriptures. And we can't deny

346
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:51.079
that reality. We're all capable of going to the scriptures

347
00:24:51.079 --> 00:24:53.119
and twisting them to say what we want them to say,

348
00:24:53.200 --> 00:24:59.960
to justify ourselves or to condemn someone we don't like. Now,

349
00:24:59.680 --> 00:25:03.759
how with scripture and God used, Well, the first way

350
00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:08.720
it was used is the Mormons had a perceived divine mandate.

351
00:25:09.160 --> 00:25:13.160
Oh oh boy, Christians love to do this. We have

352
00:25:13.200 --> 00:25:15.599
a divine mandate. We're just supposed to do this. We

353
00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:19.960
have a divine mandate. We have a divine mandate to

354
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:22.279
take over. We have a divine mandate to do this.

355
00:25:24.000 --> 00:25:27.519
We have a divine mandate from God to take over America.

356
00:25:28.039 --> 00:25:30.759
I mean, how did that work out? Maybe in history

357
00:25:32.559 --> 00:25:35.240
God has given us America. I'm sorry Native Americans that

358
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:42.160
you're here. You've got to go or you have to die. Oh.

359
00:25:42.279 --> 00:25:45.359
Whenever people perceive they have a divine mandate, Oh, that's

360
00:25:45.400 --> 00:25:50.359
always a troubling concept that can arise. Some of the

361
00:25:50.400 --> 00:25:54.200
Mormon settlers believe they were acting under a divine mandate

362
00:25:54.440 --> 00:25:58.720
to protect their community and faith. The Mormons at the

363
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:01.960
time felt undersea due to the Utah War and years

364
00:26:02.000 --> 00:26:05.559
of persecution, leading to a siege mentality. They may have

365
00:26:05.640 --> 00:26:09.880
interpreted the immigrants as a threat to their survival and

366
00:26:10.319 --> 00:26:16.519
God's work. We have a divine mandate. Nothing can stop us.

367
00:26:16.599 --> 00:26:20.839
We have to defend it. We Oh, and people love

368
00:26:20.960 --> 00:26:24.200
to say God is telling me to do this. God

369
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:26.920
is telling me, God is leading me to do this.

370
00:26:28.599 --> 00:26:32.440
I've always said the psychological manipulation that leads to It's

371
00:26:32.440 --> 00:26:35.000
the same thing when a pastor said God gave me

372
00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:37.759
this sermon. Well, then I can't criticize the sermon. God

373
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:39.880
told me to do this. Well, I can't say you're wrong.

374
00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:44.359
If you want a divine mandate, you open the Bible

375
00:26:44.359 --> 00:26:48.039
and what the Bible says. There's your divine mandate. God

376
00:26:48.119 --> 00:26:50.240
is not speaking to you outside of the scriptures. He's

377
00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:52.599
not leading you with some still small voice. It's not

378
00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:56.480
a feeling, it's not a it's not anything happening in

379
00:26:56.519 --> 00:27:04.720
your body. That's why I cannot stand charismatic theology where

380
00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:07.920
God is leading and guiding and speaking outside of the Bible,

381
00:27:08.599 --> 00:27:16.000
which leads to craziness. So they had to perceived divine mandate.

382
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:20.000
Number two. Old Testament justification. The use of Old Testament

383
00:27:20.079 --> 00:27:22.200
narratives such as God's commanding theirs or all liights to

384
00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:26.599
destroy their enemies, Joshua and the conquest of Canaan may

385
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.640
have been cited or implied to justify violence. The selective

386
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.920
application of scripture can be dangerous, especially when used to

387
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:38.240
frame violence as obedience to God. Now let me make

388
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:42.960
it very clear it may have been used. I don't

389
00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:48.759
know if we have any definitive historical documentation that they

390
00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.839
utilized Old Testament, but a lot of times Old Testament

391
00:27:53.160 --> 00:27:56.720
passages are utilized for well people to call for other

392
00:27:56.720 --> 00:27:59.319
people to be killed. How many times have you heard

393
00:27:59.319 --> 00:28:02.759
pastors call for homosexuals to be executed and killed because

394
00:28:02.799 --> 00:28:09.920
they cite an Old Testament scripture. Yeah, people will use

395
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:19.559
the Old Testament to kill anyone they want killed. Number

396
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:28.839
three doctrine of blood atonement. Some leaders within the LDS

397
00:28:29.000 --> 00:28:33.960
Church at that time had taught the controversial and now

398
00:28:34.200 --> 00:28:40.319
disavowed concept of blood atonement, which suggested that certain sins

399
00:28:40.880 --> 00:28:48.480
required the shedding of blood for forgiveness. Hey, someone has

400
00:28:48.519 --> 00:28:51.519
to die. Someone's blood has to be shed if there's

401
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:54.519
going to be forgiveness. And we believe the Son of

402
00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:57.640
God his shed blood brings forgiveness. But we don't believe

403
00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:00.519
someone else has to die in order to make atonement.

404
00:29:01.000 --> 00:29:06.559
Like no, Jesus made the atonement. Now, this blood, this

405
00:29:06.640 --> 00:29:10.640
doctrine of blood atonement, as taught by by some. Let

406
00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:13.200
me make it very clear some in the LDS Church,

407
00:29:13.319 --> 00:29:19.160
not all, just some. This is very important. We may

408
00:29:19.160 --> 00:29:23.559
not have any direct evidence that this doctrine directly motivated

409
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.559
the massacre. So we again, once again, we may have

410
00:29:26.680 --> 00:29:32.680
we don't have maybe some specific historical document that states it. However,

411
00:29:32.799 --> 00:29:36.480
many would say the existence of this doctrine may have

412
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:42.200
contributed at least in part to an environment where violence

413
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:47.759
was seen as justifiable and under certain circumstances. So this,

414
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:51.640
at least the existence of this doctrine could have possibly

415
00:29:51.720 --> 00:29:56.720
given some a justification to say violence is justifiable in

416
00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:08.279
these circumstances. Religious loyalty and obedience. The settlers involved in

417
00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:12.319
the massacre were influenced by a sense of religious duty

418
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:21.240
and obedience to the church or church leaders. John D. Lee,

419
00:30:21.319 --> 00:30:24.599
a prominent Mormon leader and key participant in the massacre,

420
00:30:24.920 --> 00:30:30.680
claimed he was acting under orders from higher church authorities,

421
00:30:31.279 --> 00:30:35.880
though this remains debated. So at least one of the

422
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:39.839
individuals claim, hey, I was acting on you know, orders

423
00:30:39.880 --> 00:30:43.480
from church authorities, and those church authorities obviously denied it.

424
00:30:43.559 --> 00:30:46.319
And you know, well you can. How did it play out?

425
00:30:46.519 --> 00:30:49.319
No one, No one's going to know. But once again,

426
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:53.079
when people become law this when you become loyal to

427
00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:56.039
a church, when you become loyal to a leader, when

428
00:30:56.079 --> 00:31:02.480
you become loyal to a thiological system, truth gets sacrificed

429
00:31:03.359 --> 00:31:07.079
and crazy things can take place. And we've seen that.

430
00:31:08.720 --> 00:31:11.359
If you ever watch, if you ever read the Roy's report.

431
00:31:11.519 --> 00:31:15.119
Whenever if she reports something negative, say about John MacArthur,

432
00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:19.240
the MacArthur supporters come out like they pull out their swords,

433
00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:22.000
and I'm not talking the Bible. They pull out their

434
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:25.359
physical swords, Okay, okay, metaphorically speaking, they pull out their

435
00:31:25.880 --> 00:31:28.799
verbal swords. How about that? And they start fighting back,

436
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:31.079
and they started attacking, calling him you're a woman, you

437
00:31:31.119 --> 00:31:34.319
shouldn't be saying anything, and you just hate MacArthur and

438
00:31:34.359 --> 00:31:37.680
you're ungodly and what about your past Julie Roy's, I

439
00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:40.720
bet you've done that. And then nobody wants to actually

440
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.920
listen because they're so loyal to a man, they're so

441
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:49.039
loyal to a church, they're so loyal to a theology,

442
00:31:49.720 --> 00:31:52.200
we can't and that happens. It doesn't matter if it's

443
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:55.400
a charismatic leader. The charismatics come out support the leader.

444
00:31:55.519 --> 00:31:57.519
If it doesn't matter if it's MacArthur, It doesn't matter

445
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:01.359
whom it is. You choose your son, you choose your leaders,

446
00:32:02.359 --> 00:32:05.640
and then people show a loyalty to it. And that's

447
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:11.079
not the way it's supposed to work. Now, what are

448
00:32:11.119 --> 00:32:15.240
the problems with these justifications? Well, then the misuse of scripture.

449
00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:18.200
They use scripture to justify violence and ignore the broader

450
00:32:18.240 --> 00:32:23.000
biblical themes of love, mercy, justice for Christians, especially for Christians,

451
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:25.680
the teachings of Jesus love your enemy, pray for those

452
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:30.960
who persecute you directly contradicts their actions. But how many

453
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:33.559
times have you say love your enemy turned the other cheek? Well,

454
00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:36.799
it doesn't actually mean that. Well, in this case I

455
00:32:36.839 --> 00:32:39.799
can kill someone. Well, in this case, I can kill someone,

456
00:32:41.480 --> 00:32:46.000
resist not evil, Well, submit yourself to governmental authorities. Well,

457
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:48.599
in this case it doesn't count. In this case, I

458
00:32:48.599 --> 00:32:51.519
don't have to. And we always love to have our

459
00:32:52.000 --> 00:32:56.440
you know, exception or get out of free gel card, right.

460
00:32:56.519 --> 00:33:02.039
I mean, so, the first problem was the misuse of scripture. Second,

461
00:33:02.079 --> 00:33:06.720
the twisting of God's character. Depicting God as endorsing indiscriminate

462
00:33:06.880 --> 00:33:10.440
violence misrepresents his character as reveiled in scripture. While the

463
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.480
Bible contains accounts of divine judgment, these are specific and

464
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:16.039
not a blanket endorsement for human violence. I think the

465
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.880
issue here here is that it's not so much of

466
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:22.000
twisting God's character. I think in many cases what they

467
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:24.480
do is they take a passage that is descriptive and

468
00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:27.680
make it prescriptive. Which we've talked about so many times.

469
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:34.720
A third possible problem, Now some may agree, some may

470
00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:40.440
disagree with this is maybe this demonstrates and ignoring of

471
00:33:41.759 --> 00:33:49.759
personal responsibility. See, if you claim divine justification for violent actions,

472
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:55.200
you shift the blame from a human decision to God,

473
00:33:57.920 --> 00:34:04.599
undermining personal conduct, personal accountability, and any responsibility to discern

474
00:34:04.680 --> 00:34:07.279
right and wrong. If you say, well, God told me,

475
00:34:07.440 --> 00:34:12.199
God said, now, what are some lessons we can take

476
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:15.119
from this? Well, we need to have critical We need

477
00:34:15.159 --> 00:34:20.880
to be critical and critically examine any religious claims. Believers

478
00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:24.400
must critically examine claims that invoke God or scripture to

479
00:34:24.639 --> 00:34:28.960
justify any type of action. We've got to we've got

480
00:34:28.960 --> 00:34:30.159
to say, wait a minute, wait a minute, what do

481
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:32.519
you say? And the sermon that we reviewed last night,

482
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:36.239
the man made all kinds of accusations, accusations about lost people,

483
00:34:36.679 --> 00:34:40.119
and many cases he just was factually in error. He

484
00:34:40.239 --> 00:34:52.000
bore false witness. Pastors, sermons, religious leaders make all kinds

485
00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:56.320
of claims that make all kinds of accusations, They condemn people,

486
00:34:56.360 --> 00:35:00.320
they say all kinds of things. Those claims have to

487
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:13.760
be clearly looked at and examined. Maybe we have to

488
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:20.679
avoid extremism. The Mountain Meadows massacre. Maybe it serves as

489
00:35:20.719 --> 00:35:30.920
a warning against allowing fear isolation to foster religious extremism. Now,

490
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:33.199
it's always difficult to know when you have entered into

491
00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:36.880
some form of extremism, some type of religious extremism. It's

492
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:39.280
sometimes difficult to see because you'll be convinced that, no,

493
00:35:39.719 --> 00:35:42.719
I'm being more faithful to scripture, I'm being more committed

494
00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:45.760
to God, I'm being the right I have God on

495
00:35:45.800 --> 00:35:47.920
my side. And you may have just slid over into

496
00:35:47.960 --> 00:35:50.920
some weird extremism and you've left God behind, but you

497
00:35:51.320 --> 00:36:03.360
think God is justifying what you're doing. How about love

498
00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:09.039
and peace? Maybe as Christians we could possibly try to

499
00:36:09.079 --> 00:36:15.079
emphasize the teachings of love, peace, and reconciliation and try

500
00:36:15.079 --> 00:36:26.039
to ensure that we're interpreting scripture correctly. Ai summarized it

501
00:36:26.079 --> 00:36:34.599
this way. The Mountain Meadows massacre is a tragic example

502
00:36:35.800 --> 00:36:45.519
of how religion can be misused to justify violence. It

503
00:36:45.599 --> 00:36:50.559
underscores the importance of approaching scripture with humility, a commitment

504
00:36:50.599 --> 00:37:06.760
to context, and a heart aligned with God's justice and mercy.

505
00:37:07.559 --> 00:37:10.760
So I asked Ai this, I said, Hey, can you

506
00:37:10.800 --> 00:37:16.159
give me some just general principles and lessons that we

507
00:37:16.199 --> 00:37:19.280
can take away from the Mountain Meadows massacre. What are

508
00:37:19.280 --> 00:37:22.840
some general This is what AI gave me. Number one,

509
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:27.719
the danger of groupthink and blind obedience. I can't stand

510
00:37:27.719 --> 00:37:33.800
group think. I cannot stand blind obedience. I cannot. Now

511
00:37:33.920 --> 00:37:37.519
I may go the opposite direction. If the group thinks A,

512
00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:42.239
I'm going with B, I'm going different. I'm going the

513
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:45.320
opposite direction. And I can't stand group think. And I

514
00:37:45.320 --> 00:37:50.480
think group think is very common in Christianity. When individuals

515
00:37:50.519 --> 00:37:56.119
prioritize loyalty to a group leader, they may commit or

516
00:37:56.239 --> 00:37:58.519
justify atrocities. Now I'm not saying it's always going to

517
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:00.960
go that far, but many Christians, like we all have

518
00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:03.400
to think this way. We almost look at it this way,

519
00:38:03.559 --> 00:38:06.159
we almost do it. And it's like if anyone says, no, no, no,

520
00:38:06.280 --> 00:38:08.599
not gonna go that way, gonna think differently, you you're

521
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:11.800
immediately like you're you're you're thrown out of the group. It's,

522
00:38:11.880 --> 00:38:14.639
you know, quoting the famous lyric you know, conformer, be

523
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:22.480
cast out. Christianity is all about group think. And if

524
00:38:22.480 --> 00:38:24.639
you come up, if you if you're a Christian, and

525
00:38:24.840 --> 00:38:27.599
let's say you're you don't support Trump or you don't

526
00:38:27.599 --> 00:38:30.639
support Republicans. Uh, oh, you're possibly in trouble if you're

527
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:32.559
a Christian and you're like, well, wait a minute, wait

528
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:35.360
a minute, I think the text could do you start

529
00:38:35.480 --> 00:38:39.320
challenging maybe certain interpretations. You're in trouble. You gotta you

530
00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:41.719
got to pick a team. You gotta wear the colors

531
00:38:41.719 --> 00:38:43.800
of that team, and you gotta you gotta, you gotta

532
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:47.760
color within the lines. And there is no room, there's

533
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:50.760
nothing allowed for you to possibly, I don't know think.

534
00:38:55.440 --> 00:38:58.679
A second lesson Ai pointed out is the consequences of

535
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:03.360
fear and prejudice. Fear and prejudice can lead to dehumanization.

536
00:39:06.320 --> 00:39:09.559
You begin to dehumanize people. And I point this out

537
00:39:09.599 --> 00:39:12.559
in sermons. Sometimes it's always them them them they they

538
00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:16.239
they they they the lost, this they they They're all

539
00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:21.119
the bad people. Be worry about them, fear them, and

540
00:39:21.159 --> 00:39:24.079
that we almost dehumanize them, and we create almost some

541
00:39:24.239 --> 00:39:28.559
kind of you know, image of the lost people being

542
00:39:28.599 --> 00:39:33.440
this way, but we're all the good guys. Well, you

543
00:39:33.480 --> 00:39:36.039
begin to dehumanize them, and you begin to justify your

544
00:39:36.480 --> 00:39:43.519
judgmental condemning bearing false witness. We have to avoid making

545
00:39:43.559 --> 00:39:48.159
assumptions about other people based on rumors or stereotypes. How

546
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:51.239
about we seek understanding? How about I don't know. I

547
00:39:51.320 --> 00:39:53.320
know now, there was a time a couple of years

548
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:56.280
ago where Christians were debating this, how about we have empathy.

549
00:39:56.320 --> 00:39:58.960
I know we were being told that empathy is sinful,

550
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:01.519
But I think I'm going to go with understanding and

551
00:40:01.559 --> 00:40:05.880
empathy even in times of conflict. Now, I'll be fair

552
00:40:05.920 --> 00:40:09.920
with I'll be honest with you. I sometimes do much

553
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:13.960
better and seeking understanding and empathy for the world for

554
00:40:14.039 --> 00:40:18.480
the lost. My problem is I sometimes don't have much

555
00:40:18.480 --> 00:40:22.079
empathy or seek understanding amongst Christians that I think sometimes

556
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:24.039
are whacked out of their minds, and they say some

557
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:26.519
of the most ridiculous things, and I get very frustrated

558
00:40:26.559 --> 00:40:30.559
with it. I need to seek understanding and empathy with everyone.

559
00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:38.320
So the danger of groupthink and blind obedience Number two.

560
00:40:38.480 --> 00:40:44.320
The consequences of fear and prejudice. Number three the corruption

561
00:40:44.599 --> 00:40:49.679
of power. When religious or political leaders hold unchecked power,

562
00:40:49.840 --> 00:40:53.760
it can lead to abuses, including the manipulation of followers.

563
00:40:55.159 --> 00:40:57.679
Power must be held accountable, and no leaders should be

564
00:40:57.719 --> 00:41:03.039
above scrutiny or criticism. Now, Christians love to talk about

565
00:41:03.159 --> 00:41:06.599
we need accountability. We need a and it's always funny

566
00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:10.320
we need They always want to assign accountability to that person,

567
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:14.559
but that with the leaders that they love and adore,

568
00:41:14.719 --> 00:41:17.480
they don't care. They'll say that there's accountability there, But

569
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:19.519
in many cases you can demonstrate is there really any

570
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:24.920
accountability there. I think the main lesson is not about accountability.

571
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:27.239
I think the main lesson is it's about the corruption

572
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:35.239
of power, power, position, political influence. When we get we

573
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:50.760
crave power, we crave position, we crave control. I'm going

574
00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:53.840
to skip some AI gives me like fifteen things here,

575
00:41:54.039 --> 00:41:57.199
I'm going to skip down to this one. The importance

576
00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:02.360
of historical reflection. Understand and acknowledging past wrongs helps prevent

577
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:06.320
repeating them in the future. We should study history with

578
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:08.840
humility and a willingness to learn, even when it reveals

579
00:42:08.920 --> 00:42:12.880
uncomfortable truth. That's when we study church history. We should

580
00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:14.960
not just try to study church history to find people

581
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:16.840
who seem to agree with us so that we can

582
00:42:16.880 --> 00:42:20.119
tell everyone, Hey, the early church thought. In many cases

583
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:23.000
we just misrepresent the early Church. How about we study

584
00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:27.280
church history and acknowledge the problems, the failures, the sin

585
00:42:27.880 --> 00:42:30.000
so that we can learn from and that we can

586
00:42:30.039 --> 00:42:33.920
see our own failure and our own sin. We should

587
00:42:33.960 --> 00:42:38.639
study the things like the Mountain Meadows massacre. Know what happened,

588
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:43.840
remember the people who died, and be bothered by it.

589
00:42:48.920 --> 00:42:52.440
See by reflecting on the Mountain Meadows massacre, if we

590
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:58.280
reflect on it, we can be reminded of the importance

591
00:42:58.320 --> 00:43:02.159
of vigilance against the force is a fear, prejudice, and

592
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:07.599
power that tends to lead to such tragedies. These principles

593
00:43:07.719 --> 00:43:12.119
challenge us to foster justice, compassion, and accountability and our

594
00:43:12.119 --> 00:43:17.000
communities and within institutions. And the Mountain Meadows massacre, as

595
00:43:17.000 --> 00:43:19.960
horrible as it was, I can't help, but it reminds

596
00:43:20.039 --> 00:43:24.599
me of what happened in Salem. Fear prejudice, group think

597
00:43:26.480 --> 00:43:30.719
lose all form of rationality, use utilizing God, utilizing scripture

598
00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:37.960
to kill innocent people, falsely accuse people, bear false witness. Oh,

599
00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:45.079
because Satan is out to get us. So on Netflix

600
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:52.400
right now you can look up American Primeval. First two

601
00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:57.400
episodes are intense, they're brutal, they're violent, they're explicit. By

602
00:43:57.400 --> 00:43:59.039
no means am I telling you should watch it, but

603
00:43:59.079 --> 00:44:01.320
you can look it up if you so desire to.

604
00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:05.239
As you watched the first two episodes especially, I think

605
00:44:05.239 --> 00:44:09.719
it's episode one you're going to see at least their

606
00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:14.800
depiction of the Mountains Meadows massacre. It's not completely accurate.

607
00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:18.840
The way it went down. There was a series of attacks,

608
00:44:19.079 --> 00:44:22.639
finally they surrender, and then they're led off and killed.

609
00:44:25.000 --> 00:44:27.800
That's not exactly the way it goes down in the

610
00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:29.880
Netflix show, but it doesn't. The Netflix show is not

611
00:44:30.039 --> 00:44:33.639
purporting to be historically accurate. I am grateful that the

612
00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:37.280
show brings to mind to light in twenty twenty five

613
00:44:37.760 --> 00:44:43.400
what happened in the Mountains Mountain Meadows massacre because we

614
00:44:43.480 --> 00:44:48.840
can learn from it and be bothered by it and

615
00:44:48.880 --> 00:44:51.599
consider many of the lessons that should come from it.

616
00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:57.440
All right, I'll stop right there. Thanks to listening. Everyone,

617
00:44:57.719 --> 00:45:01.119
have a great day. Godless,