Isaiah 43: Blame John Bunyan

0:02 Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is the Theology Central podcast, making Theology Central. Okay, remember the last few broadcasts I said that what was needed before you could listen is you needed a stopwatch. You needed a timer, right, and then we timed how long it took before pastors inserted us into Isaiah forty three. Well, today you can just throw away your timer. You can throw away your stopwatch. What you need and you need to start building it really quick. You need a time machine. Yes, you need to build a time machine right now, because we need to go all the way back to the year sixteen seventy eight, sixteen seventy eight, and we've got to go to Bedford Jail. There's a prisoner there in sixteen seventy eight and he's beginning to write a book, and we need to break into the jail. No, we don't need to break out. We need to break into the jail and we need to knock the book and take the pap We need to take the paper the pencil away from the prisoner who was in Bedford jail in sixteen seventy eight. And we're like, no, you're not writing this book because you're going to cause all kinds of problems. And one of the things you're gonna do is mess up Isaiah forty No, give me the paper.

1:21 Get give me the paper. You stay in prison, you stay here, you're not writing anything. And then let's take the paper and let's go burn it. What is everybody with me? All right? Our mission? Build a time machine. Go to Bedford Jail sixteen seventy eight. Break in when you see the person writing a book, take the paper, and then leave. Burn the paper, and then get back in your time machine and come back to twenty twenty four. All right, that's your mission, right, I don't care if you choose to accept it. It's your mission. Start building right now. Build the time machine, get it done, Get to sixteen seventy eight, stop him from writing the book. Well is that a pretty good opening? Do I have your attention? Well? I hope. So welcome everyone. It is Friday, October the twenty fifth, twenty twenty four. It is currently one nineteen pm Central time, and I am coming to you live from the Theology Central Studio located right here in Abilene, Texas. Now, Isaiah forty three has really become a focal point and a lot of broadcast recently, right, Isaiah forty three, Isaiah forty three, Isaiah forty three. And what we have discovered is, for some weird reason, pastors who say they're going to preach on Isaiah forty three, that's the text for their sermon, it only takes them a very short amount of time in some cases less than forty seconds in some cases, well even in their title,

2:54 so zero seconds to take Isaiah forty three and insert us into the text, which has gotten us, which has led to discussions about Bible interpretation, hermeneutics, interpretive methods, hermeneutical principles. And I hope all of that has been beneficial. It has caused me to do a lot of work. So what I think I'm going to do, I don't know. If I'm going to do it for the podcast. I don't know if I'm going to do it at church. I know in church I need to get back. I mean, well, unless something is just completely messed up, Sunday is going to be Romans chapter four. It was supposed to be Romans Chapter four this past Sunday, which it didn't be. Well, there's a lot of reasons for that, but hopefully this Sunday, it'll be Romans four, and I know we need to continue working on the Dividic Covenant for the first hour, but at some point meant maybe here on the podcast, I don't know where we're going to. We are going to just do I think an extensive amount of work and study on Isaiah chapter forty to Isaiah chapter fifty five, forty to fifty five. Now, obviously in that section is Isaiah forty three, but I think we're gonna just go back and look at the entire section, because this is sometimes referred to as the Book of Comfort or the Comfort section of Isaiah. And obviously if we are inserted in Isaiah forty three, if we're just inserted there, well then it almost not only does that frustrate me, and

4:26 it's easy for me to turn on a microphone and just find sermon after sermon after sermon after sermon after sermon that just absolutely does weird things to Isaiah forty three. Obviously, there is no end of material. I could turn this into the Isaiah forty three podcast and just play wacky sermons on Isaiah forty three and never run out of material, it seems, but I don't like whenever my reviews become critical, I always feel bad, right because the reviews are never really meant to be negative. They're meant to be Hey, this is their their interpretation, here's my interpretation. But sometimes things just go so just weird. Like sometimes I'm like, I don't even know, I don't even know what world they're coming from. It's so bizarre. But I can just criticize it, but you know, I don't like to. So what I like to do is like, Okay, instead of criticizing, let's build this into something. Right, we did this was it p ssaw eighty three? We did that so many times, Like it starts with a criticism and then it turns into a full blown study so that no one can accuse me of just all you do is criticize, no whatever I may disagree with, then I go do the work on So I think we need to do an extensive and maybe turn it into a series on Isaiah forty to fifty five. I know it could be very difficult and tedious. Maybe not trying, I don't know. Maybe we break it into sections. I don't know. I just feel like there's some hermeneutics go crazy here. So that's

6:00 what I'm thinking about doing. But for this episode, I'm still trying to figure out why in twenty twenty four, Why over the last twenty or thirty years, it seems I mean, I don't know for how long it's been going on, but if you listen to modern sermons and I'll just say sermons from the last you know, say, twenty to thirty years, it seems that it's just you go to Isaiah forty three and boom it just make it about us, just forget who it's about, make it about us, and it's like, how did we get here? Now? I cannot demonstrate historically that this is the starting point, but I think what happened in a prison cell in sixteen seventy eight definitely needs to be discussed and light of what people not only do with Isaiah, but what they do with a lot of Old Testament passages. Are you ready? Now here's what happened. I was sitting here going, you know, what what should I do? What should I do?

7:02 What should I do? I need to get to the fourth secret of the sixth Secrets of the Christian Life. But there's a part of me that says, there's no real reason going into it because we've already kind of exhausted that topic. I've not heard a lot of emails. But then there's another part of me like, you started it, You've got to bring it to a conclusion. So I know I need to do that. But I'm like, ah, well, you know what, let me just do a search for Isaiah forty three. So I did a search for Isaiah forty three, and the very first thing that popped up today was River of Death. I'm like, whoa, what a title? River of Death? And then I'm like, wait, wait, wait, river of Death. Wait this is Isaiah forty three. And I'm like, oh no, no, no, no, so reaching down.

7:47 If you have your Bible, I know you're building a time machine right now. But Isaiah forty three, I remember, Oh wait, Isaiah forty three, verse two, when thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee and through the rivers they shall not overflow thee. Oh is this the river of death? So is this? Uh? Oh, what's happening here? And then I noticed river of Death and then I'm like, oh, no, you gotta be kidding me. I know I know this name, I know what this is referencing. And then I'm like, oh, boy, I wonder if this explains how we get to the spiritualizing and allegorizing of this text. So I hit play and I'm like, oh, here we go. So I'm going to play what I heard. It's only five minutes and twelve seconds long. It's only five minutes and twelve seconds long.

8:40 Trying to interrupt this is going to be somewhat difficult, but I have to somewhat interrupt it to try to offer analysis and critique, or it's not fair use. I don't know if it's copyrighted. I'm assuming the book is in the public domain, but the recording of it probably isn't in public domain. So for fair use, I have to offer analysis critique. It has to be trends formative or then I don't want to violate any form of copyright. So I will be interrupting this, even though it's going to be awkward to interrupt it, but I need to do that to just make sure I'm doing everything, you know, accurately and fairly and not you know, I don't want to be breaking any rules. So but as soon as you hear this, you're going to be like, oh, I know what this is right, I know what this. You're going to know immediately what this is. All right, So are you ready? So we're going to listen to this again.

9:27 And what we're about to hear is like an audio dramatized version of what was written in that prison cell in sixteen seventy eight. And I think what was written in that prison cell in sixteen seventy eight has had a massive impact on how Christians handle passages of scripture, and especially how preachers do so because what was written in that prison cell in sixteen seventy eight by many Christians is treated as one of the greatest works in the history of Christian And everyone saw, you need to read this, you need to read this, you need to read this. Well, what has it got to do with Isaiah forty three? Are you ready? Here we go. It's all going to make sense. Here we go.

10:19 Now. I further saw that betwixt them and the gate was a river, but there was no bridge to go over. The river was very deep at the site. Therefore of this river, the pilgrims were much stunned. But the men that went in with them said, you must go through, or you cannot come. At the gate Pilgrims then began to inquire if there was no other way to the gate, to which they answered yes, but. There have not any say two to with Enoch and Elijah then permitted to tread that path since the foundation of the world, nor shall until the last trumpet shall sound.

11:01 All right, So obviously you're getting the idea what this is, right. This is the dramatized version of one section of Pilgrim's Progress, the famous book by John Bunyan. Right, everyone know Pilgrim's Progress, right everyone? I mean, I am most of my Christian life. You've got to read Pilgrim's Progress. You've got to read Pilgrim's Progress outside of the Bible. It's one of the greatest things ever written. It will revolutionize your devotional life. It will make the Bible come alive. It's amazing. It's amazing. It's this Christian allegory. You have to read it. You have to read it. It's great, and you're never, never, never, never to criticize it. If you criticize it anathema, I mean, yeah, it's like it. Basically, if you criticize Pilgrim's Progress, or if you criticize Lord of the Rings, you basically are an atheist. Okay, you're not allowed to criticize it, but you'll notice how this story sets up. There's a river and they're like, wait, is there any other way? Well, the only other way to go around it basically is to die. Then you'll get to the gate, you'll get to heaven. But if you want to get to heaven, now, well you have to go across the river. You have to go through the river. Well, most believe that what John Bunyan was doing here. In fact, it is basically understood that the pilgrim's progress, the scene known as the River of Death is interpreting as being drawn from Isaiah chapter forty three, particularly verse two. So he built a part of this allegory on Isaiah forty three too. Oh boy,

12:37 so you can immediately see that in sixteen seventy eight, the allegorizing the spiritualizing of Isaiah forty three to two was about to go well, not at that very moment, but it was not going to take a wall that it was about to become mainstream, we could say epic. It was going to become legendary, it was going to become all Christians must read this well, talk about the influence and the impact not only of the book, but ofvon John Bunyan's approach to scripture, which has influenced preachers all the way to this day. So I'm going to back this up again. Just note the pilgrims. Those are the Christians. They're trying to get to the gate. They're trying to get to the heavenly City. They're trying to get to heaven. And they see a river and it doesn't look good, and like, well, is there any other way around? Well, if you die, basically you can make it.

13:24 But until then you got to go through. You got to go through it. You've got to go through it. Let's see, let's back this up, and well we'll talk about this entire section and what John Bunyan is doing. Are you ready? Here we go. Now. I further saw that betwixt them and the gate was a river, but there was no bridge to go over. The river was very deep at the site Therefore of this river, the pilgrims were much stunned. But the men that went in with them said, you must go through or you cannot come at The eight pilgrims then began to inquire if there was no other way to the gate, to which they answered.

14:06 Yes, but there have not any say two to with Enoch and Elijah then permitted to tread that path since the foundation of the world, nor shall until the last trumpet shall sound the pilgrims. Then, okay, let me stop there, because I did I misspoke, all right, Innoch and Elijah. The idea is I said, well, you have to go across this river unless you die. Okay, I take that back the way this is being explained, and I apologize that I completely mess this up, and now I feel now I want to kick myself, but that's okay. The point was, now you have to go through this river unless you're just taken to heaven like Enoch and Elisha. Unless you're just taken to heaven, unless you're just taken to heaven, you're going to have to go through the river, meaning the river then represents death.

14:58 The only way to get there is unless Christ comes back, or Christ or God just you're walking with God and he just takes you to heaven without death. You have to go through the river, meaning the river represents death. Okay, that's why it's called the river of death, right right, Okay, I don't know why I was messing up the allegory so much and messing it all up. So, no, you have to go through Is there any other way? No, you have to go through it unless you're taken to heaven. Right, and then the examples that were given, you have to go through it. So the river represents death? All right? There? Does that make sense? All right? So now I'll play this again, we'll put it all back together. I do apologize for that because I'm was like, no, you have to go through this river unless you die. That that makes no sense. Okay, Hello, Okay, I'm completely messing up the metaphor. I'm completely messing up the allegory all right.

15:51 Now. Of course, again, if it's an allegory and it's spiritualizing, I mean I can make it say whatever I want. Okay, So in some ways I can use my mess up as well. Why what I can make it? I can say anything I want? Right So, But obviously then Isaiah forty three two, if it's being utilized, then the river here represents dying and you have to go through the river. You have to die. But what is going to happen when you pass through the water death? I will be with thee and through the rivers they shall not overflow thee. You have to go through death, but God will be with us and we will not be consumed by it, because death is just a transition into eternal life. All right, that is the way it's being utilized. Okay, So I apologize that I messed it up, but again you can just start making it. Say whatever you want, obviously, but let's play this again and then you'll hear all right, here we go.

16:45 Now. I further saw that betwixt them and the gate was a river, but there was no bridge to go over. The river was very deep at the site Therefore of this river, the pilgrims were much stunned, But the men that in with him said, you must go through, or you cannot come at the gates. Pilgrims then began to inquire if there was no other way to the gates, to which they answered, yes. But there have not any say two to with Enoch and Elijah. Then permitted to tread that path. Since the foundation of the world. See only Enoch and Elijah, I think, I said, Elishah.

17:25 But Innoch and Elijah, those are the only two. Unless God takes you up right you're walking with God, you were no more because God just took you, or you're in a you know, God takes you at a flaming chariot, like unless he just does some miraculous way to bring you to heaven or some may refer to the rapture or what however, you're depending on your eschatology. Unless he just comes back and takes us. We have to go through the river. The river represents death. So what Isaiah forty three to two if he's borrowing from there, which most everyone believes that he is. In fact, even the message on some two point oh app for the text has Isaiah forty three to two, then that's being represented that, Hey, when thou passes through the waters meaning death, I will be with THEE and through the rivers rivers meaning death, they shall not overflow thee. So they are interpreting this that the rivers represent death, and so we have to go through death to ultimately get to heaven. But when we go through death, we're not alone. We're not going to be consumed by it. God will be with us, we will not be We will not be overflown or overcome by it. All right, sounds good, right, sounds wonderful.

18:37 And you say that, and you preach it that way, people will be like, Oh, that's so comforting, that's so beautiful. But is Isaiah forty three too having Is is it even anywhere close to saying that is that shouldn't even be utilized for this in any way, shape or form. See this is where now the Bible you can just go and go, well, I think this pictures this, or I think this pictures this, And then this is where we turn into all of the problem. They see what else Bunyan John Bunyan did. Here, nor shall until the last trumpet shall sound. The pilgrims, then, especially Christian, began to despond in their minds and look this way and that that no way could be found by them by which they might escape the river. Then they asked the men if the waters were all of a death. They said no, yet they could not help them in that case. Or you shall find it deeper or shallower as you believe in the King of the place. Then they had rested themselves to the water, entering, Christian began to sink and, crying out to his good friend Hopeful, said, I think I think.

19:54 Over my head, good cheer my God, I the bottom, and it is good I shall not see the land of clothing and honey. With that, a great darkness and horror fell upon Christian, so that he could.

20:36 Not see before him. Also here he in great measure lost his senses, so that he could neither remember nor orderly talk of any of those sweet refreshments that he had met with in the way of his privilege. All the words that he spake still tended to discover that he had a horror of mind and heart, fears that he should die in the river, and never obtained infancy into the gates. Here, also, as they had stood by, perceived he was much in troublesome thoughts of sins that he had committed, both since and before he began to be afforded. He's also observed that he was troubled with abolition to com doctum and evil spirits for ever and anon he would be to make so much by words hope. They therefore here had much ado to keep his brother's head above water yeat.

21:24 Sometimes he would be quite calmed down. Then ere a while he would rise up again, half dead, hopeful, also would endeavor to comforting, saying, brother, I. See the gate and then standing by to receive us. Didn't you you they wait or early? You've been all clever since I knew and and so have you. Ah brother, surly, surely if he was right, you would now arrive to help me. But for my.

22:05 Kids did dropped me into the scenario and has left me. My brother, you quite forgot the text where it is said of the wicked, there are no fans in their death, but their strends is spurred. They are not in trouble as other men. Neither are they plagued like other Again, how these troubles they're distressed, that can folk through these waters are no sign that God has mistaken you, but are said to try you. Whether you have called to mind that was here before, you have received of his goodness and live upon me of an your distress. Then I saw in my dream that Christian was as in amusable. I'm also hopeful, added Discord.

22:53 Be a be share Jesus Christ, they get me all. As you have. Christian breakout a mild voice. I see him again, and he tells me when they'll, I will be with you. They shall not overflow here. Then they both took her out, and the enemy was after that as still as a stone until they were gone over. Christian therefore presently found ground to stand upon it. So it follows that the rest of the river was but shallow. Thus they got over you.

23:43 Hear the quote literal quote from Isaiah forty three too, when you pass through the waters, I will be with you, and though the rivers they shall not overwhelm you or overflow you, depending on the tech I'm depending on the translation. So clearly there now and aroundabout way, if you kind of listen to the metaphor and listen to the allegory, even there may be a little inconsistent because it was like, hey, how do we get around this? Well, the only way you're going to get around this is if you don't die. Right, if you are inoch or Elijah and you're taken to Heaven or the Last Trump and you're just taking you have to go through the river. So it's called the river of death. So many would be like, well, no, this represents death, so you have to die. But when you die, well, God is going to be with you and you're not going to be overwhelmed by death because death is just a transition. You walk through the shadow of the valley of the shadow of death and you just pass right through. But then it kind of transitioned into not really being death. It's trials, and it's difficulty, and it's shame and it's guilt. But at all of this he's going to be with you through it. So now it's not really death, it's really trials. And so is it death or is it this? What does it actually represent? But it's all an allegory. No, you want to ride an allegory, great, but see when you start using scripture, then it would becomes the problem because Isaiah forty three to two has nothing to do with this allegory and he literally quoted it. So you need to get back to sixteen seventy eight, knock the pencil out of his hand, and say put the pencil down, because

25:14 you're about to influence how Christians interpret Isaiah forty three to two for years and years and years and years to come. So you're ready to do a little bit of work on this, And I do apologize that that. I was like, no, you have to die to get away from the No, you have to not die to escape the river, because the river seems to be representing death. But well, it could also represent I guess, I guess. It could represent whatever you want it to represent. Right, So here's a little bit of discussion on this text. In the allegory, Christian and Hopeful must cross the river of death to reach the celestial city, symbolizing heaven. Banyan Uzia uses the crossing to represent the final journey through death that believers must take. For Christian, the water are turbulent and frightening, symbolizing the fear and struggle that can accompany death. However, or Hopefully Hopeful I'm sorry, however, crosses more peacefully, showing the assurance some believers feel and their final moments. So it seems that many do understand the river to be death represents. It doesn't represent trials and tribulations.

26:20 It represents actual death. We have to go through the. Death. We have to go through death, whatever however you want to describe it. And so that's what is going through. Some are going to be fearful and afraid. Others may be more peaceful, but everyone has to go through it unless your inoch Elijah or Christ returns. Right, So you can't turn it into trials and tribulations. No, it's death. That's what it represents, or at least that's how most understand it. Bunyan does indeed allegorize the promises and Isaiah forty three two. In the original context, Isaiah forty three speaks of God's presence with Israel through their trials, specifically as he promises to bring them through the Babylonian exile and return them to their land. For Israel, the promise that they will not be overwhelmed by the water or fire was a literal assurance of God's protection through their national hardships. God is saying, I am not going to let you be overwhelmed. I'm not going to let you be destroyed. I will keep be with you and preserve you through this. But it was literal promises to a literal nation and a literal historical context. Bunyan, I don't care how spiritual you may think he is. I don't care how wonderful you think the pilgrim's progress may be.

27:47 He had no right zero to take Isaiah forty three to two and turn it into some allegory. That's the problem. Now they'll look. There is plenty of times in my Christian life where only recommended Pilgrim's Progress because I thought, well, it's just an allegory. We can read it as an allegory and we can have a discussion about the Christian life. But now since I've seen how much people take this allegorizing concept and bring it to the scriptures, that's where I have a problem. If he would have just left scripture out of it, Okay, then okay, hey, I'm gonna tell you this story, and I think this represents this, This represents this, this represents this. But I'm gonna leave scripture alone because scripture was not written for me to turn it into spiritualizing and allegorizing, because it was written to be interpreted by the way it was intended to be interpreted. That's where my problem is. Younger, I did not catch on to the hermoneutical implications.

28:47 We'll see. When I was younger, I'm just like, oh, here's this famous book. It's an allegory. Okay, I like to interpret things. This is fun, this is great. I didn't understand the hermeneutical implications. Now I'm much more bothered it because of the hermeneutical implications. So what is Isaiah forty three two about its promises? To literal Israel and their little historical setting, which is Babylonian exile, Babylonian captivity, and God promises that He will not leave them and they will not be overwhelmed and destroyed through this very difficult time. Bunyan, however, reinterprets these promises as an allegory for the Christian's journey through death. He takes the imagery of passing through waters and applies it to spiritual experience of death, suggesting that God's presence will protect the believer through life's final trial. Thus, he fully allegorizes Isaiah forty three, adapting it to communicate the hope of eternal life rather than Israel's historical deliverance. So, now, what did Bunyan do in sixteen seventy eight? He kicked Israel out of the text, and he inserted you and I into the text. He was doing it in sixteen seventy eight, and it hasn't stopped since. Bunyans application. I don't even like to refer to it as an application.

30:05 Bunyan's complete allegorizing, a spiritualizing, That's how I would word it. Of Isaiah forty three in the River of Death, scene is a spiritualized adaptation. It meant to encourage readers by illustrating how just as God promised to be with Israel in their trials, so He is with believers as they face death. It reflects Bunyan Bunyan's Puritan theology, which often look to the Old Testament for spiritual application to the Christian life and final perseverance. Well, I don't care if the I don't care if it comes from his Puritan theology. I don't care where it came from. I could care less. The issue is how do you handle Isaiah forty three?

30:46 Now. I know people are going to like I found such great spiritual comfort in that. It's a beautiful picture. I love it. It's made my Christian life so much better. Look, I don't care if it's made your life better. I don't care if it's brought you comfort. I don't care if it's brought you peace. I don't care how well meaning all the people who've handled the text this way are. It's not what the text is about. It's not it was meant to bring Israel comfort, not you. It's not you. Now you wait now if you want to again, there are there some applications. We've tried to draw some applications, but you've got to be very careful how you draw these applications. You can't just go in and spiritualize and allegorize the text. Bunyan does fully allegorize Isaiah forty three and the River of Death scene, transforming Israel's literal assurance of protection into a spiritual metaphor for the believer's passage through death into eternal life. This creative adaptation provided readers with a vivid, hope filled picture of God's presence with them and their final moments. Again, what Bunyan meant to do with this, as this represents death. I know that that quote some scriptures that it sounds more like trial, but I guess what they're basically saying is death is that final trial. Okay, yes, if you go it that way, but that's how it's pictured by Bunyan. Is the only way to escape this river is to God to take us apart from dying. Right, You're not gonna Alijah or the last trump sounds unless that happens. We're going through

32:18 the river, which is death, and we're going to experience some may peacefully, some may with great fear. But God promises that he will not allow the death to overwhelm you, overflow you, and He will be with you. That sounds great. It preaches good. Everyone will love the sermon. Everybody will say amen, and they will thank you for it. But I'm here to say no, no, now. So there's a little bit, And there's all kinds of study guides, there's all kinds of books on the Pilgrim's Progress. I encouraged my church to read it. Look, I would encourage you to read Pilgrim's Progress. Everyone should read it. It's a very famous work. So I'm not telling you not to read.

33:00 I'm saying when he quotes scripture, your job is to say, I don't care how Bunyan's quoting it, what does the scripture actually say? So I was curious did this greatly impact the way Christians have handled the text since he wrote the book? And according to what I can discover, John Bunyan's allegorical use of Isaiah forty three in The Pilgrim's Progress has significantly influenced the way Christians interpret and apply passages like Isaiah forty three to two, especially in spiritualizing the promises of God's presence through trials by using Isaiah forty three to illustrate the believer's journey through death.

33:45 Bunyan set a precedent for interpreting Old Testament promises as spiritual metaphors for the Christian life, particularly for the assurance of God's presence through life's ultimate trial death. I want you to know, Banyan set a precedent, a precedent. Hey, you can go here and you can just do this, and you can make this this, and you can make this this, and you can make this this. Well, once you set the precedent, where does it stop? How far can you go? Where are the rules? Who puts up the rules at that point and say no, no, no, no, that out? You got the allegory wrong. I mean, I mean I messed up the allegory right. I was like, no, no, no, no, no no. The only way to get away from this river, right, the only way to get away from this river is you have to die, right, So you have to die to escape this river. Other than that, you've got to go through the river. And so I was going to say, the river represents all the pain and suffering and confusion in life. And you've got to go through it unless you die. Unless you die, you can skip the river.

34:49 But if you don't die, you have to go through the river. Well, no, that's not how he was using it. He was using it. No, the river is death and the only way to get around it is to well God to take you. I COMPLA was messing up the metaphor. I was completely changing it. But I mean, why can't I change it? Right? Why can't I say, Look, there's this river in front of us, and it's called life, and it's filled with pain and sin and failure and doubt and depression, and it's not good. It's filled with so much suffering. It could be disease, it can be everything. And you've got to go through that river. Unless you die, you're going through it. But here's the thing. God promises you that when you go through it, He's going to be with you and you're not going to be overwhelmed by it. So the river actually represents life. I mean, why can't I make it that way? Right? I mean, I mean, come on, I mean we can do whatever we want. I mean EXAIA forty three or two. I can make the river be anything. I can turn there.

35:44 I can make the river represent anything. So even though I messed up and I'm misinterpreted, I was misspeaking about how John Bunyan was handling it, and a roundabout way, it just demonstrates we can just write our own You can make anything an allegory. You could write fifteen allegory and everyone could use Isaiah forty three to two and probably make it fit. Because once you take the text, it turns into Plato and you can be like, well, this represents this, and this represents this, and this represents this. Now, obviously I was foolish to interpret it that way because the text the audio literally said Enoch and Elijah, even though I said elisha if I even messed that up. But the point was my brain was trying to go through all of this, and well, once you start getting into the metaphor, it's just where is the end?

36:36 The end? Now? What has the impact been on this book on interpretation and application spiritualized and allegorical applications. Bunyan's in interpretation led to a common Christian approach of spiritualizing Old Testament promises that were initially given to Isra. I want you to hear this again. John Bunyan's interpretation led to a common Christian approach to spiritualize Old Testament promises that were initially given to Israel. What was happening in that prison cell was not a good thing. Ultimately. I know people are gonna get mad at me for saying this, but I know it was a bad thing because what did it lead to. It's led to this idea of spiritualizing Old Testament promises that were given to Israel and making them about us. In sixteen seventy eight, he opened the door, like, you can just insert us wherever you want, and you can just spiritualize it and make it whatever you want to make the river death, make the river death, you want to make the river trials, make it trials. If you want to make the river dating, make it dating.

37:46 Whatever you want to make it marriage, make just make it whatever you wanted to make it. For example, promises of God's presence through water and fire, as in Isaiah forty three, have been reinterpreted to address spiritual trials or death for believers. This approach became a popular way to read many Old Testament texts, applying them directly to individual spiritual experiences rather than Israel's historical situation Israel gets moved out, we get moved in. Or, as I've liked to say, what do we do? We become narcissistic textual hijackers. Right, it's about us. We hijacked the plane, we hijacked the text, and we make it about us, and then we fly the plane to wherever we want it to go. So what was the impact of John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress. It led to a spiritualized and allegorical application Number two, Comfort and facing death and trials. The River of Death allegory helped shape a tradition of applying Isaiah forty three too, specifically to the experience of dying and to facing life's greatest fears. Christians have often drawn on this passage for comfort in times of death, suffering, and loss, believing it assures them of God's constant presence and protection not just for Israel, but for themselves individually. Now here's the thing.

39:17 If you find great comfort and a text that is being misinterpreted and misimplied, is that real comfort or is it fake? What's more important to you? Comfort, peace or textual accuracy? I mean, come on, honestly, what's more important to you? Peace, comfort, encouragement, your life feels better, or textual accuracy which is more important to you. I will argue the average person sitting in the pew could care less about textual accuracy. They want a sermon that uplifts them, gives them a sense of space, sir rituality makes him feel like that church was practical and good, and they don't care about how accurate the text was handled only until they get ticked off. Then they'll say they care about the text being accurate. Oh, if they don't like what they said, then they want accuracy as long as they like it. They could care less how accurate the text is being handled as long as they're out by noon.

40:26 So it did bring comfort, but again comfort for whom the comfort. Look if you go to Isaiah forty, this entire section Isaiah forty to fifty five, Look how it begins. Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Who is he going to comfort there? Well, we just come in and say me number three. So what was the impact of this book? It led to usiritualized and allegorical application. It did bring comfort. Number three had encourage an already not yet interpretation. Bunyan Jews of Isaiah forty three in The Pilgrim's Progress helped advance and already not yet view of biblical promises, where Old Testament assurance to Israel are seen as foreshadowing the spiritual assurance given to Christians under the New Covenant. This interpretation aligns with how some Christians view Old Testament promises as spiritually fulfilled in the Church today in a way that anticipates ultimate fulfillment in God's eternal kingdom. So they're like, hey, yeah, this was for Israel, but but bu buh buh buh. But but but it's it's also for us. It's also for the church. So you can say, well, it was kind of partially fulfilled, but it's ultimately be fulfilled in us. But again, you're just basically making you You may give a little bit of nod, some acknowledgment that it was to Israel, but you immediately kick them out of the text. I'm like, sorry, guys, we're moving in. We're taking over the plane. And number four,

42:02 it's influence on Christian literature and sermons. Bunyan's allegories set a pattern for sermons, hymns, and Christian literature that follow a similar approach interpreting Old Testament promises as metaphors for the spiritual life. Many hymns and devotionals echo Bunyan's adaptation of Isaiah forty three, speaking of God's presence through life of trials or final waters as metaphors for suffering and death. So it began to influence how pastors handle things. This also serves as a cautionary influence on interpretation. While Bunyan's approach has provided comfort and encouragement, it has led to some theological challenges. Number one, the over spiritualization. Some readers may overlook the original context of Old Testament passages, applying promises given to Israel directly to themselves without considering the historical and covenantal background, a potential for misinterpretation. Allegorizing texts can sometimes obscure the literal meaning or primary audience of a passage, leading to interpretations that may not align with the author's original intent. Bunyan's interpretation of Isaiah forty three as a promise of God's presence through the river of death has had a lasting impact on Christian thought, shaping how many believers understand and apply Old Testament promises. By Adapting Isaiah forty three in The Pilgrim's Progress, he provided a framework for spiritualizing Biblical texts to fit the Christian experience of trial, at suffering, and death, a practice that has profoundly influenced devotional literature, preaching, and hymns ever since

43:35 that day. While this approach has offered significant comfort, it serves as a reminder to balance spiritual application with the respect for the original context. Now they are being way too nice. What happened in sixteen seventy eight had an absolutely profoundly negative and destructive influence on devotionals, commentaries, and sermons and hymns. Where we can just go to the Bible and do whatever we want with it. When you come to Isaiah forty three and this entire section starting in forty, it's about comfort, but it's comfort to a specific people, and that specific people would be those in Babylonian exile, those in Babylonian captivity. If you want to divide, if you want to use Israel and well, if you want to use a more specific term, a more technical term, this would be for Judah and the Southern Kingdom, who's in Babylonian exile. You want to use Israel just in a general sense. It's for Israel, and it has an immediate context. The immediate context is coming out of Babylonian exile.

44:49 I think it has a context that fits eschatology. Israel is always going to be in some form of exile. Basically, they're always going to be. I mean, look what happened, even though when they came out of Babylonian exile. What ultimately happens when you read your Bible, you open up the Bible to the New Testament, where is Israel under the Hill of Rome. What happens in seventy eight d they wipped off the face of the earth. They're scattered all over the place. Finally in nineteen forty eight they kind of come back to their land, but they're not all there, and they still face war, attack and everything else. But there is coming a time, as promised in the Bible, that God will bring Israel into the land that will finally have the land, and then He's going to completely transform them where there's no more idolatry, no more sin. He will be their God, they will be his people, and everything will be fulfilled as fulfilled. So there's a future fulfillment as well. If you say, well, where do we fit in? Well, where do we fit in? We fit in in the same sense as Israel. We are in exile. We are in this world, but we're not of it where Pilgrims were strangers here. And there will come a time that God. And this is I don't need to go to Isaiah forty three to do any of this, because I could got New Testament passages that would speak about us. There's coming a time that God will then call us up to his heaven where he will be with him. And then what will happen. We will be transformed and there will be no more a body of sin, well if a glorified body, and there'll be no more pay no more suffering, and no more death.

46:07 And He will be our God and we will be his people. So there is a parallel, but that's not what these passages in Isaiah are primarily about their comfort for Israel within their covenantal relationship with God, where he is promising he will, he will. He will in a sense partially fulfill these promises, but the ultimate promise will be fulfilled in a future time. What Bunyan did is just say forget Israel. It's about you. It's about your Christian life. Your Christian life is a metaphor, it's an allegory. And you can go to the Bible and find any passage you want and make it about your Christian life. You can write your own Pilgrim's progress. You can make the story of David and Goliath about you. You can make this about you.

46:52 You can make this story about you. You can make it. You can make you every story in the Bible about you. And so what does that create? It creates little narcissistic textual hijackers who run around and make the text all about us while we throw Israel out. So for clarification, Bunyan's approach to Isaiah forty three to two was that the river and the water represents death. You're gonna see it, and you're gonna want to go around it. You're want to be able to avoid it. God says, the only way around is you have to be an Enoch or in Elijah, where he takes you apart from death right, you don't die, He just takes shit to heaven. Or you have to wait for the last trumpet. Unless that happens. You were going through the river the river represents death, but God promises to be with you in death, and you're not gonna be overwhelmed.

47:48 You're not gonna be drowned, because you're gonna come out the other side. It's just a doorway, it's just a shadow of death. You're going to pass right through and you're going to be in heaven. That sounds wonderful, it sounds spiritual. You could even say it's syllologically sound. You could say it's a wonderful truth. The only problem is Isaiah forty three two has nothing to say about any of that. Isaiah forty three two are literal promises to a literal nation Judah or we go with Judah the Southern Kingdom, or a Babylonian exile, and he is promising them that He's going to be with them, and they are not going to be overwhelmed and destroyed through what they are suffering. But God will bring them through. And what Bunyan did in sixteen seventy eight, he set the precedent.

48:40 And now if you go to Sermon's two point oh happen, look up sermons on Isaiah forty three you hear the echoes of his legacy. Now even if we go get our time machine built, and even if we get back to sixteen seventy eight, and even if we break into the prison, and even if we take his paper and pencil away from him. Right, and now that I'm thinking about it, there's no way he used pencil because he had to be using pen, because there's no way if he using pencil, of course, everything he wrote would have been right and godly and correct. He's using pen That's why it was all messed up. I guarantee it was written in pen. That it's proof. It's proof that writing in pen is evil. Okay, So I'm joking. I'm joking.

49:21 The point is being serious. Even if we went back and pulled it out of his hands, takes his writing instrument pen away from him, and we go burn it all, get back on our time machine and come back to twenty twenty four. You know what we will find when we arrive in twenty twenty four, Probably the same allogorizing and spiritualizing of the text, because that's what we do. We always are going to insert ourself. We're always going to want to see ourself. We always want it to be about ourselves, and we will find and comfort even in a misapplication and misinterpretation of the text, because it makes us feel better now, even though I think if we removed it from Bunyan, we still would end up in the same location. We can't just negate the legacy.

50:20 He had a profound influence on everything that happened afterwards with this text. All right, I'll stop there. I'm conflicted. I know I messed up, but maybe my mess up does demonstrate that technically I could do anything I want. With Isaiah forty three, someone could say the river represents death. I'll say, no, it doesn't represent death. It represents trials and life and trying to get around it. Is you want to be able to escape, You want to be able to have a life without all the pain, suffering and death. Well, the only way to make that our pain suffering, The only way to get around it would be, well you just have to die now, or because you're going to go through it if you're alive. I know that's not what Bunyan was saying, and I misinterpreted it, but I'm just what I want to demonstrate from that is literally we could you could just kind of write any allegory you want. If you're just and you can make that. You can make the river and the waters represent literally anything. You can make the rivers and water represent one thing and the fire a separate thing. I mean, we really we could just start going to town. You could just start writing yours, I could start writing mine.

51:33 There would be no end to it, and we would all be using Isaiah forty three. Or we could say, maybe Isaiah forty three had an original audience with the original purpose. So my mess up hopefully will only help illustrate the danger here, but hopefully we'll also reinforce what Bunyan was actually trying to do. Because I completely misrepresented Bunyan, and I did not have any intention to do that, because I don't everyone to misrepresent any body. I don't care who it is. I don't care if it's Satanists, Muslims, Mormons, Catholics, I don't care. You don't want to misrepresent. You always want to make sure you don't bear false witness. But I think I corrected it, so obviously you can tell what bothered me the most by this, But I am bothered by the legacy of it, and in some ways I kind of kick myself because I didn't catch on.

52:19 I told everyone read Pilgrim's Progress. Everyone read it. Everyone read it. Everyone read it. Everyone read it, everyone read it, everyone read it. Because I just got caught up in oh, this represents this represent I love analyzing. I love allegory in a sense. I love doing film analysis, like, oh, why did they take the camera shot from this way and see the lighting? And this represents this? And this represents this. I love that stuff. Right, So, just from a pure oh, read it and figure out the allegory. That's like a puzzle. That's awesome. I never in my brain ever registered wait a minute, this is this is going to have an impact on the text and how people interpret the text. I didn't see the correlation. I still don't resent having people read it. I still think everyone should read it just because of its place in church history. But I think as you read it now, you should read it with a much more critical eye.

53:12 You're like, wait a minute, he's using what scripture? Did he just reference there? What did he do? Wait? Wait that script whoa, what's happening here? That's not what we need to do. Now. You won't be well received in doing that, because it'll be almost viewed as blasphemy, because how dare you offer criticism, but you know the book can be criticized. I don't know if we realize this, but Bunyan was not, you know, divinely inspired when he wrote Pilgrim's Progress. All right, thanks for listening. We'll see if my desire to go from Isaiah forty to Isaiah fifty five pans out, and if it does, if it proves to be beneficial. But it's proving to me that we may it may be necess just to show you how bad this section of scripture has been handled throughout church history. So all right, we'll see. Thanks for listening.

54:08 Everyone have a great day, and God bless