Is God In Hell?

0:02 Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is the Theology Central podcast making Theology Central. Good morning everyone. It is Friday, July the fifth, twenty twenty four. It is currently ten oh four am Central Time, and I am coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located right here in Abilene, Texas. Well. Did you have a wonderful and happy Fourth of July? Did it go wonderful? Was it great for you? I don't know about where you live, but here in Abilene, Texas. Oh, we had, we had some fun in Abilene, Texas. Well, it didn't really happen on the fourth of July. It actually happened on the third of July. You see. There there was controversy in Abilene, Texas, lots of controversy because typically where the big city wide fireworks display occurs, it's really close to the zoo. Well this year the zoo director was like, Nope, not going to happen. Over my dead body, the fireworks.

1:08 They it traumatizes the animals. So you gotta take your fireworks display and you got to go packing. You can't do it near the zoo, all right. So so everybody with people who are like who love animals were like, yay. People who don't care were like, that's that's where it's been for fifty years. I don't care if the animal Okay, So you know, you had a little bit of controversy. So they moved the fireworks display near one of the large high schools. Not actually not very far from my house, Wiley High School, all right, not far from my house at all. I probably could be there and what five to six minutes maybe maybe seven minutes, right, not far. So they had their big fireworks display and they absolutely started a raging wildfire case exactly what happened. Now, what's funny is the city had been putting out these ridiculous videos to try to tell everyone no fireworks are to be shot off in the in the Abilene city limits because we're on a burn band, because you know, we're in West Texas.

2:12 This is when all the rain stops and it returns back to desert. Okay, I mean this is it's it's you know, one hundred and five degrees and no rain, and yeah, everything you a spark will set off a fire. So they've been telling everyone no fireworks in the city limits of Abilee, no fireworks in the city limits of Abley, do not do any fireworks, you will burn the whole state to the ground. All right, well guess what the city said that. Then they have the big city wide fireworks display and they start this massive fire. They finally get it under control. It's just, it's just it's so ridiculous because on one end, you can look at what the city of Abilene is telling you not to do, but then they're like, hey, we've got a permit, we know what we're doing, and then they almost burn the school down to the ground.

2:55 All the video and pictures of it are hilarious, and of course all the comments everyone was making was making me last. So that's how things were going here in the Abilene, Texas area. I don't know how things are going where you live, but yeah, that's why. So now it's you know, the talk of the town because i mean, you know, Abilene's not like some major city, so you know, everyone's got opinions about it, and it's just it makes me left. So people calling it the great you know Fourth of July catastrophe, Okay, well it wasn't that bad. I mean, they got it under control. It could have I mean, I think the reason people are joking so much about it is because it could have literally gotten out of control. I mean, we have a history of having some really bad fires in this area this time of year because things get so dry and you just can't You got to be extra careful and so well.

3:44 So last night, at least in my neighborhood, which typically sounds like a war zone, there was like almost no one. No. I think everyone was afraid. No one wanted to shoot off a firework, well, burn everything to the ground. Now, there were some larger you know area, there's some areas nearby where there obviously some people had large supplies of fireworks where they were going off. I think people were extra cautious last night. So it was much quieter here. What I could have actually probably done a broadcast it was. It was that quiet. Maybe here or there there were some things that when may have interfered, but for the most part it was quiet. But I know most of you were out doing whatever you were doing. So hopefully you had a great fourth. So Abilene almost burnt to the ground on the third, it was quiet on the fourth. Well, now it's July the fifth, it's time to move on. Now, remember we're currently in the middle of a challenge. And that challenge is you're supposed to be listening to live webcasts on the sermon's two point oh. App that's what you're supposed to be doing, and we are. And I already realized the mistake I made because we are seeing so many of the broadcasts, especially leading up to the fourth and even today, where it seems to be very I mean, there's no way to get around it. The the idol of patriotism is alive. And well, there's there's a live webcast going on right now.

5:04 If you go look, you'll you'll you'll definitely notice. It's the largest American flag I've ever seen behind the pulpit. I think is gigantic. Now, I don't know if that's inside a church or if it's inside a college or a high school. If it's not in a sanctuary, Okay, if that's in a sanctuary, then that is that is that is ridiculous. That is just absolutely ridiculous. But I so I wanted to listen to that, but I felt like, you know, you know, well, I felt like I got things I have to get done, right, so I feel like this is the time to broadcast. So I'm going to broadcast, but you can go. I may go back and try to listen to that sermon. I don't think the sermon was about patriotism. I don't think in any way, shape or form. It sounded like he was talking about Elijah and you know that we need a new generation of Elijah's to rise up that kind of type of thing. And then he was swirling his coat over his head.

5:55 I don't know what was going It's some kind of youth conference. So I definitely want to kind of keep up in the main reason I want to keep up with that is I always like to see what the churches think the young people of twenty twenty four need to hear. And what we typically find when we listen to these like youth conferences is it's always just moralism, moralism, moralism, moralism, moralism, moralism, moralism, instead of any actual theology. So that's always very discouraging and depressing. So we may go look at that, but you can go look at that American flag if you so desire. Now, I have a specific goal to accomplish in this broadcast, which I always do, but I'm going to take just I mean, I'm already taking a few detours. Let me take one more detour. All right, one more detour because right when I was getting ready to go alive, right when I was getting ready to go live, I got an email. Oh man, these emails. All right. I get an email and the subject line is final push to our goal, Final push to our Goal. And I'm like, oh, okay, I wonder what this is. Final push to our Goal. I know it's going to be from a ministry, and I bet you it's going to have something to do with money. I almost guarantee. So I open it up and of course it has Hi. Oh boy, here we go. I wanted to reach out to you about the Beacon of Hope matching challenge as it ends today. Pathway to Victory's mission is

7:32 to spread the light of God's word and offer hope to those in need. With your support, we can continue sharing the message of faith, love and redemption. Now. Pathway to Victory is Robert Jeffers. He's the pastor first Baptist Church in Dallas, Texas. I believe where they have like a multi I mean it's like a two hundred and fifty three hundred million dollars what they call campus. It's crazy. It made news all over the state of Texas when they were building it. Oh man, it was. It was such big news because they were like millions of dollars to build this thing downtown Dallas, all right, So that they are there to say they are a rich church would be the understatement, maybe the greatest understatement ever. They have to be one of the wealthiest churches, just because of how much money went into just building their their quote unquote campus. All right. So, and I don't even know how many people attend the thing, but it's a giant church with lots of money. But yet I get an email emailing me and guess what they want me to do. They want me to help donate because you know what they need. They need seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars so that they can broadcast. They need seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars to support their thirty minute broadcast that airs Monday through Friday. That is nothing more than edited sermons. Hey. They take their sermons, edit them down and then broadcast

9:03 them on different Christian radio stations and on the internet five days a week thirty minutes. So you give them seven they need to raise seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars so they can broadcast thirty minute edited sermon clips. Now I have a hard time with that because for seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars, ladies and gentlemen, I promise you, I guarantee you. I will broadcast five to eight hours a day. If you need it, I will broadcast at least five minimum five hours a day seven hundred fifty thousand dollars. I'll do eight hours a day. I'll broadcast eight hours a day. I'll wake up and just come in here to the studio and go, this is my job for the next eight hours, and just broadcast. Broadcast, broadcast, broadcast for seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. For seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars, I'll make We'll have curric digital curriculum available to everyone. We'll do book giveaways. We'll be broadcasting on every platform that we can possibly find. Seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. I'll create the Theology Central Radio station. We'll broadcast twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. Okay. I'll work with other ministries to see if I can use their content we'll create a radio station seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. This is what they say.

10:24 Now, remember they need the support so that they can continue to share the message of faith because they don't have enough money to share the message of faith and it costs so much to you know, broadcast on the internet. I guess all right, So he says, we have a goal of seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and your donation will make a significant impact on our ability to reach hearts and change lives. Your participation in this mission can help bring Jesus hope to many. Your gift will be matched dollar for dollar, effectively increasing the impact we can make. If you're not able to donate this time, that's okay. Your previous support is much appreciated and you can contribute in the future if you wish. But if you're willing an able to donate, you can help us reach our goal to make a difference today. Considered donating together, Let's shine the light of God's love into the darkest corners of our world. Thanks again for all you do. Gratefully, Doctor Robert Jeffris Pathway to Victory, Dallas, Texas, seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars.

11:24 Look, I have I struggle with that. I'm just going to be full transparency. I have a hard time with that, I really do. I get these emails from these ministries almost weekly that we need a million dollars, we need five hundred thousand dollars, we need seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars, we need eight hundred thousand dollars. It's never like, hey, we just need one hundred dollars. No, we need hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. And the thing is, thousands of Christians will give them the money, they will raise the money, they will reach their goal, and then within twelve months, probably within six months. I guarantee you from you watch from this ministry from the Pathway to Victory. It is July.

12:11 I will get another email within the next four to five months. I guarantee you. I'll get one probably around Thanksgiving, and I'll get another one around Christmas, and then maybe one last one. Probably I'll probably get three before the year is overall, asking for crazy amounts of money, and they will get the money. So you just have to sit there and ask like I don't get it, Like it's like I, I mean, go listen to Pathway to Victory. You go listen to it, maybe you'll maybe, and I mean this without sarcasm. You look up Pathway to Victory, find their website, find all of their content. You go listen to their messages, and you may go, well, I can see why they're asking for seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. He's one of the best speakers I've ever heard in my life. But I would give him one hundred thousand dollars just myself because he deserves it. And that's fine if you. But I listen and I'm like, that's worth seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars for you know, less than thirty minutes of an edited sermon, Like I just don't.

13:18 I just don't understand that where I know seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars, I could broadcast for fifty years for seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars, Like I just I just don't get it. But so that's what's going on. So that's already irritating, and you can make I don't know what your feelings are about it. It's always interesting. I think some people in the Pew think well, what's the problem. These ministries need support, And I understand that. From my perspective, it's just like, well, yeah, we all need support, All ministries need support, but for that much money. Like I know how much it costs a broadcast on the internet. I know.

14:00 I mean, look at all the things we had to cut, right. We used to offer digital curriculum. We could not get enough support. We had to get rid of it. We used to broadcast on numerous platforms. We had to cut some of them because we cannot raise enough support. Right, So we even talked about the end of twenty twenty three, maybe just ending everything because it's hard to get support. So I understand that every ministry needs money, but I have never asked for seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars. Okay, I mean, you know, and I mean come on, I mean seven hundred and fifty I mean yeah, okay, all right, but I digress. You can make your own determination. But we're here about another email. See that's one email, but we're here because of another email. I received an email. Let me go back to the date on this one. I received an email on July the second, at seven thirty eight pm and someone sit me in an email saying, Hey, I'm participating in your live webcast challenge. That's always encouraging. And they told me they basically they were listening to something and the person made some statement about God and his presence and hell, and the emailer was kind of like, so did I hear this right? Basically? How do I understand this? Could you review this? It's very short? Could you let me know if i'm you know, what is the correct way to understand this? And so I greatly appreciate it obviously, first the person participating. I greatly appreciate the person asking

15:35 the question, and we're going to do our very best to try to figure this out. Now, logic and wisdom would dictate that I go listen to it first, then I, you know, gather all of my thoughts, and then I email the person back. But you know, I don't necessarily like to do that, right because if I have to go watch something, if I have to go listen to something, why do I go watch and listen to it in private? Why not just watch and listen to it with everyone else and then we try to figure out the answer together. Now, to me, that's more fun. That makes this podcast much more organic, It makes it much more real, and I like that, but it also means I'm going in blind. Now. The thing that could happen is I could listen to this and then I could be like, I don't understand the problem, which that would be Then kind of that could offend the original email or so I know there's always a danger here. Or I may go, oh wait, wait, you missed the real problem. Okay, that's not the problem. So I may I may hear something completely different so to the original email, or however I respond, it's not about you, it's about I'm going to be responding to whatever I hear, Okay, and we're going to do our best to try to figure this out. But I think before we listen to this, we do need at least now now I could be making a mistake here, But since this seems to be a discussion possibly that we're going to listen to dealing with hell and God and and maybe the presence of God in hell and how all of this works, I think we need

17:07 to start with kind of just maybe some definitions of hell, or at least some basic points and things to consider when we discuss hell, because obviously the doctrine of hell is not a pleasant doctrine. I think we can all agree with that. I mean, it's a horrible concept when you from a human perspective. From a God perspective, you know it may it's going to be completely different. But from a human perspective, you have to kind of understand the way this looks. All right, from a human perspective, there's a God who's all knowing, all powerful, knew exactly what was going to happen when he created the world. But at the same time, he knew that when he created the world that there's going to be all these people who don't do quote unquote the right thing and they end up then burning for eternity.

17:56 That's hard to wrap your mind around. It's a very uncomfortable doctrine right now. Many Christians almost relish in it, right you know, Oh, you don't believe the right thing, well you're going to be sorry almost, like you know, I don't know why we we'd ever talk that way, but trust me, Christians do. And I can't stand it because the concept of hell should bother you. Like. In fact, sometimes I don't like I struggle with it because there's been times in my Christian life. I'm just gonna be honest with you. I almost reached the point a couple of times I felt like I was going to have a nervous breakdown, Like I literally thought emotionally I was not going to be able to handle it because the thought that I'm sitting here and then there's human beings who died and they're burning for eternity, that's very difficult for me to comprehend, right, And so then it's like almost like living with this like reality that people are burning. People are burning. And at the same time, from a theological perspective, some people say, well, that should motivate you to evangelize. Well, I can evangelize all day. If you believe in a free will worldview, I can only I can only evangelize. But their will has to decide. It's not my job to manipulate their will because I want them to exercise their free will.

19:15 Any force upon their free will or manipulation upon their free will is not respecting their free will. So if I truly believe in free will, then I'm not going to do anything to manipulate or do that. Even though many churches who believe in free will, the very ones who manipulate and use every psychological trick in the book to try to get someone to say a prayer. I can't. I can't stand that, right, So that's not truly respecting the doctor. In a free will, If someone has to make a free will decision, then you don't manipulate or do anything to force you. All you can do is simply present. And if you believe in a calvinistic soteriology, well then all you can do is present and then God has to do the work. And either way you're limited in what you can do. So that that's a very it's just a very difficult concept. But I think that we have certain when we talk about Hell. I think there's certain ways we describe it, right. Some refer to Hell as a place of punishment for the unrighteous, and many Biblical passages, Hell is depicted as a place of punishment for those who have rejected salvation and lived without righteousness. It describes a place of torment, suffering. And I listen to this phrase separation from God.

20:27 Separation from God. Now that's a phrase that shows up frequently when we speak of Hell. We speak of a christless or godless eternity where you are separated from God for all eternity, which would seem to indicate, well, God is not there, God is not present. Is that a philologically sound way to describe it? Is God present in Hell? Or is He not present? Another way of describing it is eternal consequence. The Bible often portrays Hell as an eternal destination for the unrepentant, where individuals face the consequences of their actions. For all eternity is described as a place of eternal punishment where there is no escape or relief. Okay, that doesn't use the separation from God concept, but all right, we definitely have a place of punishment in a place of eternity, fire and darkness Hell Hell sometimes is depicted as a place of fiery torment or outer darkness, symbolizing the intense suffering a separation from God. There's the phrase again, separation from God that awaits the ungodly.

21:33 These images convey the severity of the punishment and those who reject God's grace. So there twice now, just in two like trying to look at different ways, Hell is described two different times. Now The phrase separation from God. Separation from God separation from God. In hell, you are separated from God. In hell, you are in a christless, godless eternity. You are separated from God forever. So is God. If God's there, then am I separated from it? What do we mean by that? All right? Another one, Hell is often associated with the final judgment of all humanity, where God will separate the righteous from the unrighteous. Those consigned to Hell will face God's judgment for their sins and will be held accountable for the rejection of God's offer of salvation. Now, please note that will face God's judgment.

22:22 Now, is that God putting you there for the judgment? Or is God present in some way pouring out his judgment in wrath upon you? So is it God just puts you there, but he's separated from it? Or is God present somehow? Is some aspect of God present? These are maybe theological questions you've never considered before. That's why you know, I love getting emails, because emails may take me down a path that I had not even considered. All right, but now now listen to this one. They describe hell as at the absence of God's presence. One aspect of hell on the Bible is the absence of God's presence and grace. Those in Hell are separated from God, experiencing the full weight of their rebellion and sin without hope of reconciliation.

23:12 So over and over and over when you look up definitions of hell or descriptions of hell, no matter what philological book you may be looking in, or or you know, Bible study book, they're constantly going to refer to Hell as the absence of God's presence or separated from God. So if we describe Hell as the absence of God's presence or the separation from God, then can we say God is in Hell? Or maybe we should stop describing Hell as the absence of God's presence and we have to be more more specific, We have to be more careful in our language. We talked about this in a recent broadcast about the importance of philological language. Is Hell a place of separation from God? Or is Hell at a place where you're separated from God's mercy and grace but you experience the presence of God in his wrath and condemnation.

24:12 How do we understand this now? Supposedly what the clip that was the link that was provided in the email is going to take me to a audio clip that's about this very subject. And this aired on the Sermon's two point oh app is a live webcast. It is called in the judgment by doctor Steve J. Lawson Stephen J. Lawson. All right, in the judgment doctor Stephen J. Lawson. They broadcast early in the morning, like eight seven in the morning. Eight in the morning, I think is when their live webcast comes on the air on the Sermon's two point oh app. Sometimes I can catch it. Most of the times I probably miss it because when at that time, I'm usually trying to get focused on what I'm going to be doing for the day. But yeah, if you ever up early, you can check them out. But look, we're gonna listen to this.

25:03 It's only like thirteen minutes long, so it should go by relatively quick. Let's see what we let's see what we learn, let's see what we can I don't know where this is going to go. So the question really is how should we describe Hell. Is it a place where God is not present and you're separated forever from the presence of God? Or is God present in some way, shape or form, Because on one hand, God is omni present. He is present everywhere at all times. So can he not be present if he's not present in hell? Would that then not? Would that call into question his omnipresence. If there's a place God is not present, then he's not omnipresent. Ooh, that's that's a good theological question, right.

25:55 So you ready, let's see if we can figure this out. And we're going to listen, and we're going to start right now. Welcome to stage fast hope. I'm Steve Laws and joined as always. If I can't stay back and our contract's running out, no, it's a lifetime contract. Lifetime. You haven't read the small print, the content. You signed it. We've got you for lives now. Okay, We've thought about working out a trade with another team. I'll see you in I'll see you in pull. But uh no, you're you're stuck with us. We're stuck with you. So where it hurt? Okay, maybe they're getting ready to explain where they are. There's like all kinds of people talking in the background. I don't know their microphones are all weare? Okay, I didn't see the video of this. I'm going to back that up a little bit. Because I think he's getting ready to explain where they are. Maybe it will explain what's going on, right. So that's the first thing I caught on, is what's going on going on with our microphones? And why is there all these people talking in the background? Where are they broadcasting from? Right? So let's see if we can find out, Oh, you're stuck with us, for stuck with you? So we're at Herb's house, coffee shop, Dallas, Texas, and more, we're in some Juan Kent. Oh, they're in a coffee house. What if it's like one of those ministry related coffee houses where the ministry puts together a coffee house, so then it's like a

27:26 business, but then they make it text except okay, we can get into all the legalities of all of that. Okay, but I don't know if it is. But I don't know. That's that's a maybe it's cool setting. I don't know if I would want to do a podcast in a coffee shop, what I I guess it would be kind of cool. It would be kind of cool, I guess, right. I think maybe, I don't know. I don't know. I would be too distracted. I think i'd be like I'd be telling everyone, hey, be quiet, I'm trying to broadcast here. Okay, So I don't know, or people in the coffee house would be like, boom, you staying, go away, you're trash, You're you're a dumpster fire, get out of my face. Okay, Like I probably wouldn't get heckled by the crowd, and then I would not respond to being heckled in a very godly manner. Soon then I'd be yelling back at them your trash. And then and then you'd be like, Wow, this is such a great podcast, what a thiological podcast. This guy has got major problems. And well, I'd be the first to mit that I do. All right, but all right, let's see what's going on. Right, So we're in a coffeehouse, Dallas, Texas. See the original the first email that I read today from Dallas, Texas. Dallas is the theme today, Ladies and gentlemen, Dallas is the theme. No to be honest, Dallas. There are so many ministries in Dallas, Texas.

28:47 I mean this part of the country. I mean, like I always the joke when you first when you if you're in the military and you get stationed at diast Air Force Base, and you go to the new newcomers briefing where you get your briefings about welcome to Dallas uh Dias Air Force Base, we welcome to the Abling, Texas area. And then they you get all the things about the base and about the community. They'll say, Abling Texas the town where there's a church on every street corner, right. And of course then the young airman like wait, I got stationed on a base that has churches on every street corner. Is there anything else to do in this town other than go to church? Okay? Usually they're very very disappointed, disappointed and discourage that the military sent them to a place where there's a church on every street corner. But there are. But that's this part of the country. There's there's That's just the way it is. And some of you live in other parts of the country that are very similar. Okay, but I do know this. I can live in a city with three Christian universities.

29:41 I can live in a city where there's a church on every street corner, and guess what, there's just as much sin here as it is anywhere else, because we're still sinners. Okay, all right, I digress, All right, are you ready, Let's see, let's see, let's see where this is going to go. And we're in verse five, and Kent, I wish we weren't having to talk about what we're going to look at in this verse, but we have to, and we need the whole truth. And verse five I want to call this in the Judgment. And I think most people today just live their life without any thought of that last day of the final judgment. For them, they think the last day is their last day here on the earth in a hospital bed, and then they die in their home, and then they die and go to a better place and go to a better place, and that's it. And they never think about the fact that the last day is beyond the last day here, that the last day is a day of reckoning, a day of accounting with God and standing before him and having him go through the books and having him sort it out. And he's been keeping impeccable books, every thought, every word,

31:14 every deed, and will face the record. And so he says in verse five, just so you know, as a Christian, will face the record. But the record, whatever record that is there that would bring shame or would condemn us, we have Christ's righteousness that takes care of all of that record, because his obedience and his righteousness and his perfection has been imputed to our account by faith alone. All right. Now we can talk about a judgment of believers and the loss of reward and what that means. It doesn't mean we can get into that discussion. Just remember, even if you open the books and as a Christian you stand there and there is nothing, all your words burn up, you are still saved because you are not saved by your works. You're saved by the works of Christ. All right, So that's very important to remember. Okay, So let's see how we're gonna get from Psalm one to five to Well, it's about in the judgment, So obviously then hell is going to come up here. This is where this is going to go. Let's see, then we're going to listen. We're listening for the concept of God's presence and hell and if they're going to expand or articulate exactly what they're referring to. Therefore, the wicked will not stand in the judgment. There sinners in the assembly of the righteous, and so can't This is saying these wicked, the wicked who are like the chaff driven by

32:45 the wind. In verse four, it says there is a judgment. It says, we'll not stand in the judgment. What does that mean, Well, it doesn't mean that they will not appear in the judgment. They will appear. It means they will not stand with God's approval, and they will not stand with his acceptance. They will be driven like the chaff and blown away from the judgment into an eternity of torment and destruction. And so verse five has to be understood in light of verse four, that you will not remain in the judgments. You will be sentenced, and you will be executed, and you will be taken away. And he says, nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous. What that means is there will be a separation.

33:52 This wicked person is in the assembly of the righteous. He's in the worship service, he's in a believing family, he is surrounded by other believers. And so he's in the assembly of the righteous until that last day here on earth, and then he will be removed. And then even in the judgment, there will be a separation of an unbelieving husband from a believing wife. There will be a separation of believing grandparents from unbelieving grandchildren, and so the wicked will not stand or remain in the assembly of the righteous. Okay, Now, when I hear this, if I was like if I was if I was sitting in church and I was listening to a sermon that was saying these kinds of things, what I would want to do is right before the sermon and ended, I would want to get up and go run out to the parking lot real quick and be waiting. You know why I always tell everyone that you need to walk around the church asking the people you go to church with questions. Right. See, if I went to church with you, you would get so iert you'd be like, oh no, no, kids, kids, kids, hurry, get to the car. Here comes that strange man who's going to ask us weird theological questions. But I love asking people who attend church questions because sometimes it's very interesting to know what

35:22 the people in the pew actually think. They when people in the pew hear this idea that hey, in the end, there's going to be a separation between the wicked and the righteous, Between the wicked and the righteous, Okay, explain to me what is the difference between the wicked and the righteous. Go, what is that difference between the wicked and the righteous and that final when they're separated in the end. Why is some referred to wicked? Why is some referred to righteous? What is the difference? Many will focus on their behavior, Well, the wicked did ungodly things. Well, the righteous we don't do those ungodly things. And the minute I hear people describe it that way, I just want to start yelling and screaming and going. You miss the entire point why they are called wicked is because they stand in their own righteousness. They are called wicked because man in their righteousness is wickedness before a holy God. As no matter how righteous a wicked, no matter how righteous you are, you're going to be considered wicked when you compare that righteousness to the holiness of God. Those are called righteous because they don't stand in their righteousness. They stand in the righteousness of Christ that's been imputed to them.

36:36 The dividing point between the wicked and the righteous is that you have individuals who either stand in their own righteousness or they stand in the righteousness of Christ. To stand in your own righteousness makes you wicked. To stand in the righteousness of Christ makes you righteous. The difference is imputed righteousness, not the actions of your life. That's the dividing point, that's the division. Most Christians say, No, No, they're wicked because they do bad things, and we're righteous because we do good things. You got to be out of your ever living mind to think that way. You take all the good that you can do, you're still unrighteous. I'm sorry to tell you. You're wicked. You see, No, but I don't do this. Well, congratulations, you don't do this. But you do this and this and this and this and this, and you don't love God with all your heart, mind, body, and soul. And you're not as holy as He is holy. You are wicked. I know you don't want to hear that this morning, but you are. Now. You can be declared to be righteous by faith, not based off what you do. I mean, they are together right now. They may be holding the same hymnal right now. They may be attending the same sporting events right now to watch their chill employing.

38:00 But there's coming this time of polarization, this this this separation of one from the other. And Jesus talked about that in Matthew twenty five at his second coming, one will be taken, the other will be left and so kent. This is sobering. But it adds an element of gravitas, of gravity, of weightiness to our Christian lives. That that that we need to have. And it's a part of fostering the fear of the Lord. That that that we need, and it causes us to treasure what it is to know the Lord. Okay, we got so much going on here, and Matthew twenty five, he says some will be taken, some will be left behind, and Christ a second coming. Now I would put forth Now he does not give me a reference here. He does not give me a reference here.

39:06 So you're gonna have to bear with me here, right, because we may have We may have, ladies and gentlemen, a hermeneutical challenge just being handed to us. All right, We may have a hermeneutical challenge that was just presented to us. All right, hang on, okay, twenty five Okay, maybe twenty five will work. Okay, A twenty five may work, yeah, okay, because twenty four a large portion of twenty four has to be understood to be referencing to seventy a d twenty five. Now it moves on, all right, So I thought maybe possibly twenty five still had a connection to twenty four. But it looks like so we don't have a hermoneutical challenge here. I think we're good to go here, all right, We're good to go here. Yeah, I think twenty five we definitely could put forth towards the second coming. I think, all right, So I think we're good to go all right. I thought possibly it was a phrase that would have something more to do with seventy eighty. So we're in good shape there, all right. Secondly, all right, so the second second, so that the first challenge, we don't have a challenge. I thought maybe we had one. But that's okay, all right, we don't second challenge. I will look at it later just to make sure. But I don't think we have the challenge that I thought was being presented. Second challenge.

40:21 What produces the fear of the Lord? Does the concept of God judging the wicked, the wicked being brought down to Hell? Does that produce the fear of the Lord? What true like as Christians we've talked about in our look at proverbs, and we still need to get back to doing some work in proverbs as one of the things we've been trying to work on this summer. I know we've always got so much going on, all right, But one of the things we talked about is the fear of the Lord? What produces it? So, if you're like, God puts people in hell, therefore I should fear him, I don't. Is that because the fear of the Lord is something a believer has, well, I don't. I'm not worried about hell if I'm a believer because I know that I am eternally secure from that. So what what is the thing that should produce the fear of the Lord? Because what should what should bring about reverence and awe? Is it? Is it the idea of judgment or is it the idea of grace?

41:22 Is that the idea of God's grace and mercy and saving a sinner and declaring a sinner to be righteous even though he's not. Should that bring a greater sense of reverence and respect and fear? The right kind of fear? To me? Hell brings the wrong kind of fear? Or what do you think? What? What? What is that? What is the thing that motivates a proper reverence and respect from God. I think that's a that's a good bilological question. They're they're kind of putting forth that judgment is what produces it, the fear of judgment. I don't know. The fear of judgment just means I don't want to be punished. What gave you the greater sense of reverence and respect for your parents? Fear of being punished or was it something else? Now I may not be the right person to answer that question right because of my background. I don't think I could answer that question, So maybe you can't as a as a if you were if you grew up in a home where you had great reverence and respect for your parents, was it their punishment that produced that in you or was it something else? I'm not that's a legitimate question. I'm not even being sarcastic because I legitimately cannot answer that question because I would have no, I wouldn't have no. Yeah, I would have no way to be able to even engage in that conversation.

42:46 So you can tell me we're still waiting to get to the question here that we're that we're waiting for the point we're looking for. So let's see if we can find it, and to be in the assembly of the right righteous, but to know the Lord who we are worshiping and sitting under his word. How valuable that is, because there are many who hear the word but are not doers of the word. Okay, this to me is the most troubling part. To see, the most troubling part here is to me, it is probably not even going to be the question about hell in God's presence. This is the more troubling part. He's drawing a distinction between the wicked and the righteous is based off what they do and don't do. That is ridiculous. The separation between the wicked and the righteous is because of an imputed righteousness, not based off a practical righteousness. Because if you're going to separate the wicked from the righteous based off our actions, then everyone's going to be in the wicked category and everyone's going to hell. The ones are declared to be righteous are declared to be righteous by faith, Like that's the whole point of the of the New of the Gospel. And so first and foremost of being doing the Word would be to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.

44:07 So can't let's let's talk about this. Well, this is sobering. And again I think we've been talking about this. It is. It's very simple, lookn't it. There's judgment coming, yeah, and there's hell, and there's a heaven and a hell and payment for sin. And when you look at this verse five, could you say, therefore the wicked will not withstand, yeah, the judgment. That that's another way that will not withstand God's judgment because of their sin. One sin, sin si. Yeah, there's no covering over their sin. And this wicked is just a great person. It's just one sin. Just one sin is enough to to really condemn a sinner. If there's just one sin, you're a sinner. And then okay, that's good. That's good. If there's just one sin, you're a sinner. But I'm gonna I'm gonna tall, I'm gonna go I'm gonna to back that up a little bit. We're before we we don't even have to commit a sin. We're guilty in Adam. And even before we commit the act, we're a ciner by nature. So we are we are a center.

45:12 Before we commit an act, we're guilty in Adam, and we're a ciner by nature. All right, But so at this and he says, one get one sin. You're a sinner. Okay, Well, I say you're a center before you commit that, I think you, I think I don't think you become a sinner because I say, oh, see that, I may have a problem with this. You're not a sinner because you commit one sin. You commit one sin because you are a sinner. A center is what you are. Sin is what you do. You don't become a center by what you do. You sin. You do because of what you are. Right, you don't become what you are by what you do. You do because of what you are. We sin because of what we are. This this seems to have them. Oh that's almost say I know he would not be a semi Appellagian in any way, shape or form. No, you you you commit the sin because you are a sinner. You don't become a center by committing sin. You're a sinner. You commit sin because you are a sinner. That oh, that's Sillologically, they're they're they're speaking it backwards. But if even if you go with their almost it's almost a Pelagian understanding. Or you're a sinner if you commit a sin. No, you commit a sin because you are a sinner. But even if we throw out what I believe is a more proper understanding of sin, even if you go with his view, Okay, if you commit one sin, you're a Oh, I can't even say it that way. You commit one sin, you're a sinner. No, that is so, I can't that is that is Oh, that's going to drive me to drinking. Okay, No, you commit one sin because you are a sinner. Right, let's just make sure we just we can't back that up. But even if you go with

46:42 their way of stating it, which I would never state it that way, even if you go with their way, well, then okay. The distinction between the wicked and the righteous isn't because one commits one sin and one doesn't commit one sin. The difference between the wicked and the righteous is not because one does the word and one doesn't do the word. The difference is because the righteous are righteous by faith because of an imputed righteousness. And then this word sinners and wicked is that synonymous? Yeah, it's parallelism. And and the wicked refers to their their nature, they're what they are on the inside.

47:27 Sinner refers to the choices that they make. So these are unforgiven sinners. Yeah, without Christ, absolutely, and it's a double whammy there. Yeah, I mean there's no escaping this. So Steve, how does then? Why don't doesn't everybody? I mean, with this looming judgment of heaven and Hell, why aren't people more concerned? Why? Why does why does it water off the duck's back by so many of our love of the ones people we know, people that come to church all the time, we sit there and pray in the elders meetings for my so and so's coming. They're not saved, they think they are. Why why don't people wake up?

48:15 What's the what's the issue? I think it begins with there's so very little preaching on judgment, so little preaching on hell, so little preaching on really that last day when the books will be open and the Book of Life will be open, that there's just no preaching on it today, even in Bible preaching churches. I mean, how little we hear about it. Let me remind us of this, Kent, Jesus had more to say about hell than he did about heaven. Wow, Now, just ponder that Jesus had more to say about Hell than anyone else in the Bible. So just those two sentences, just those two statements should awaken us to the fact that we need to be preaching on this and teaching on this and thinking about this and measuring our lives by this. That's that's number one, and and I think number two. People just don't want to hear it. Even when I preach on Hell. Even people who are close to me, will will say, did you really have to, you know, preach on this, almost like I

49:47 just ruined Sunday. Now, that is an interesting point. I know this to be somewhat true from what I witnessed. Okay, I'll just I'll just try to tell the story. I've told the story many times, but it fits perfectly. So you know, as many of you know, Christian radio playing a massive part of my Christian life, right because when I became a Christian, I realized that there's a thing called Christian radio stations. Now, now, the first one I ever discovered was before I became a Christian. It was music, just a little preaching. But then I realized that there were other stations that had more, like, you know, actual teaching. So I told the story before that, you know, after I became a Christian, about three notebooks, because there were three programs that came on every day on Christian radio. Right, there was John MacArthur, there was Chuck Swindall, and there was Chuck Smith. Right, So I had a MacArthur notebook, a swind All notebook, and a Chuck Smith notebook. I always make the joke that the Chuck Smith notebook I never wrote anything in it because his preaching bored me absolutely to death. He seemed like he had no I got nothing from it. Swind All taught me all about application, application, application, MacArthur taught me all about exposition, exposition, expounding the word all right. Now, of course I was also being very much taught lordship salvation for MacArthur. We you know, we can get into all that discussion.

51:04 So Christian radio played a big part in my life. So when I joined the United States Military and ended up in Omaha, Nebraska, I immediately looked for the Christian radio stations. Right. One was Family Radio, which actually broadcasted out of Iowa, but we could pick it up in Omaha, and that was Harold Camping. I became a student of, you know, the of Harold Camping school, and then we know all the craziness that went down with Harold Camping nineteen ninety four predicted the end of the world. Okay, all the crazy stuff that went down there. Okay, but I did I did attend to school, okay, right, So all right, Then there was I think it was KG KGB. I okay, it was something like you always he always wanted the KGB. You always wanted to connect it to Russia. But I think it was like KGBI, something along those lines.

51:50 And it was a part of Grace University. Was on campus of Grace University where I was a student at Grace University. So I knew that radio station really well. And they played lots of teaching programs all right. So one of the teaching programs they had on there was Charles Stanley in Touch. Well at that time, in Touch, what you could do is you could contact in Touch and they would send you their monthly devotional magazine for free. I loved that, the fact that they did that. So I had the magazine, and the magazine corresponded with the radio program. Right. So there was a day coming up. I'm like, ooh, it's going to be on the Doctrine of Hell. All right, I got my notebook, I got my in Touch devotional guide. I'm ready for the program to begin on radio.

52:35 I know, I know, back before you could just listen to anything on the internet. Okay, so you had to be there at a specific time. I'm ready to go. What in the world it was a sermon on something completely different? So I contacted the radio station, like, well, we made the decision we didn't necessarily want to broadcast that. We felt it was a little too heavy, it was too negative. And I'm like, so a Christian radio station did not want to have broadcast a message on Hell on their radio station because it was too negative. That was in the nineteen nineties, ladies and gentlemen. So there is some truth to what they're saying that many in the church don't want to hear about the Doctrine of Hell and people don't like it. And I look, on one end, I understand why nobody likes it. Okay, Look, but if we're gonna start getting rid of we're gonna start start getting rid of doctrines or things that we don't like. Get in line. I've got a list of things I want to get rid of. All right, okay, so that is fascinating that he thinks that's the issue. We still haven't gotten to the question at hand.

53:42 We'll see, it's got to be getting close, let's see. Or I just ruined our gathering together, as if I just poured cold water on a hot fire and put out our joy and our peace. We want the good, but we don't want the rest of the story, and so books like how to Have Your Best Life Now it just totally cuts us off from the reality that there is looming on the horizon and inescapable appointment that every man has with judgment. You know, I think of two things real quick.

54:29 On an why out of time? This reminds me so much of I think it's Matthew. It's in the days of Noah. Nobody'd ever just because you've never seen it before. Nobody ever seen the flood. Yeah, yeah, so that's what If we've never seen it. It's a good thought, good picture. We've never seen it, then we don't believe it. Here's this man building an arc in the middle of the desert. He's the only one that he's miles and miles away from any body of water. But when the flood of judgment came, they believed it. So, yeah, Steve, finish up with this. Where does Hell come from? Who is in control of Hell? Why is Hell there? Yeah? Matthew twenty five forty one says that God created Hell for the devil and his angels, but it's also the final destination of every unbeliever. Now, okay Matthew twenty five forty one does say, then then yeah, Matthew twenty five forty one. Then he will also say to those on the left hand, depart from me, you cursed into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels. Now, a lot of people read that is to say Hell was only created for Satan and the fallen angels. That's all was created for. God never intended for anyone to go to Hell. That when I hear preachers say that, I sometimes and I'm not saying that's what he's saying, but I always I always just like just shake my head. I'm like, So, the all knowing God created a place called Hell, but he never intended anyone else to go

56:00 there. Before he created it, he knew who was going to be there. What do you mean, like he did he I'm gonna create this only for Satan and the fallen angels. That's it, Well, then why not put them there immediately? When they fell the second Satan and the angels rebelled, put him in hell. Into story, they cannot touch God's creation. If he doesn't want anyone else to go to Hell, then don't allow Satan to bring sin into the world, corrupt humankind so that they're all born sinners already destined for hell. To say that God never intended anyone to go to Hell, it's ridiculous because before he created the world, he knew exactly every single person who would be in Hell. You can't be like, oh, I didn't intend for all of that, and one went to Hell. I didn't intend. Oh no, No, I didn't. Oh man, I didn't intend for Oh man, I can't so many people keep going there and I didn't intend any of this. There's like a million there now and I didn't end I didn't intend one. Now there's too many. Oh man, How can I fix this problem? I can't stand that that's just saying that it was made for the Satan and the angels. I don't think that that's a statement indicating that it wasn't made for anyone else or anything else. I think it's just saying, hey, you're gonna go to the place that was designed also for these individuals, meaning this is a place of severe judgment, because even Satan and the angels are destined for this place. So I know I'm not saying that's what he's saying, but so many preachers state it that

57:31 way. It was never intended for people. God, God built something, and it's doing something he never intended it to do. Because what God lost complete control of the plot of the narrative, Like I, that just puts God like seemingly confused and a failure. And I don't think that's the way it's understood. Now. This raises lots of deep philosophical questions that are problematic. Why would God create people knowing they're gonna go to Hell? Especially then you can't say he never intended them to go If he knew they were going to go and he didn't do anything to prevent them from going. He said, well, he did do something to prevent them from going, he sent his son, But he knows those before they're created that they're not going to believe, So why didn't even let them be born? Like I mean, there's just so many Oh, we get into never ending philosophical issues here, all right, But maybe we're going to get closer now to the question that I received in the email. God is so holy that no sinner can enter into God's presence. They cannot enter in his presence, they cannot remain in his presence. I mean, Satan was once an angel in heaven, and sin was found in him pride, and he was cast out of heaven.

58:49 And so Hell is the repository for every one who is a sinner and who has sinned and has no forgiveness as their sins. And a holy God has created Hell, A flawlessly perfect God has created Hell. So there's no apology. God's punishing. God's the one inflicting the punishment. God. Okay, God created hell that I'm glad that they're stating that. Now. People may not like it, but he created it all right. Now, I'm going to back this up a little bit because I think this is where the listener heard this and God, well I'm not saying confused, but definitely their questions were a rose. I'm going to back this up a little bit. Here we go, God's the one inflicting the punishment. God is the one inflicting the punishment. It's not a place of self, you know, mutilization, self inflicted pain. And the devil is not the lord of hell. Wow.

59:50 No, we know from Revelation fourteen verses nine and ten that even Christ by his spirit, will be in in hell and be the executor of his wrath and judgment forever and ever and ever. And you would only hope that God is not in hell inflicting this wrath, but he is. He's omnipresent. There's no place where God's spirit does not dwell, whether in heaven, on earth, or under the earth in hell. And so it's a horrible place. It's a place of torment. And you should fear the one who has power to cast into hell. And so that would be true of your life. If you're not a believer in Jesus Christ, what do you have to do to go to hell? The answer is nothing. If you're not a Christian, you're already headed there. Just to just continue to live the life you're living and do not respond to the free offer of the gospel in Jesus Christ. And that's where this river of sin is flown and will take you into the pit of hell itself. And so someone needs to tell you the truth. Someone needs to look you square in the eyes and tell you you're headed to hell if you do not believe in God's son, Jesus Christ.

1:01:17 And so may God have mercy upon you. And He will have mercy upon the one who repents of his sin and turns to Jesus Christ and believes in him. May God do this in your life. If you're listening to this and you are without Christ, he has ears to hear, let him hear blessings to you, but they're all in Christ. Okay, now, so this brought up the question is God in hell? Is God in hell? And what they're what they're stating is and I've already alluded to it.

1:01:58 This is the basic concept. God is omnipresence, So he has to be present in some way, shape or form. If he's not in Hell to in Sum's capacity, then God is not omnipresent. Then you're destroying one of the major attributes of God. He is present everywhere, no matter where you go, He's there, but he is presence in Hell. Is only there in his His presence is there to inflict wrath and condemnation. He is pouring out his wrath upon those who are there. Think of it this way. At the Cross, God poured out his wrath on Christ, and Christ propitiated that wrath for all those who believe. So for all those who believe, Jesus drank the full cup of God's wrath. For me, there is no wrath left for me. I have to I don't fear God's wrath. I don't fear his condemnation. It's all been taken care of me and Christ and then Christ imputed his perfect righteousness and holiness to me. All right, But for those in hell Christ, that wrath has not been propitiated for them.

1:03:04 I don't want to get into particular redemption and get into whole discussion about that, but we can have a thiological discussion there, which would be controversial. But we won't get into that right now. But let me we'll just state it this way. In hell, the wrath of God is manifest, it's present. So God is there in a sense. His presence is there because he's omnipresent, but it's his presence of wrath of condemnation. He's not there suffering, he's there inflicting. He is in a sense, he is lord over that which he has created. He created Hell, and his presence is there not one of love or mercy. It's the presence of wrath and condemnation because he's omnipresent. That is how we understand it. I think that's that's what they're trying to say. Now, they only had, you know, fifteen minutes max, so obviously they could not get into great detail about that, but that's where they were going. I know it can sound confusing because the one hour I say, Hell is the separation of us from God.

1:04:05 Hell is a christless eternity. Well, to be fair, Hell is where you experience the presence of God's wrath and condemnation upon you. You are separated from God's love, You're separated from God's mercy, You're separated from a relationship with God, but you are very much facing the presence of God and his wrath and condemnation. I think that's a better way to explain it. So there is a separation from God, but you're not separated from his presence as far as his wrath and condemnation is concerned. I hope that makes sense. That may be a little confusing, you just remember he's omnipresent. He's got to be present everywhere at all times. He has to be, or he's not omnipresent. If there's a place he's not at, he's not omnipresent.

1:04:54 So he has to be present now. So then what does that mean. Well, he's not obviously there to save or to give mercy a grace. He is there to pour out wrath and condemnation. Hell is a place where you experience the wrath of God for all eternity because you have not put your faith in Jesus Christ. Because if you put your faith in Jesus Christ, then you're in God's presence in heaven without the wrath of God because it's all been satisfied in Christ. I hope that helps. I know it could be a little confusing, especially considery and this is why and preaching we have to be very precise in our language because we say something that people in the pew pick up on it. Oh, hell is the you know, the absence of God's presence. It's the separation from God. And then you hear on something else, you know, like, wait a minute, it seems to contradict what you said. It's when we got to be precise in our theological language, or it leads to theological confusion. Now I'm not always precise in my language. And there they are trying. They're just trying to explain his omni presence in regards to Hell. So all right, there's some other things there that would bother me a little bit. It sounds like they're they kind of clarified a little bit of what I was concerned with, but they still didn't draw that proper distinction between the wicked and the righteous. But all right, and again, let's just ma I'm going to be very precise here.

1:06:23 You do not become a sinner by committing a sin. You commit one sin because you are a sinner. Don't ever forget that, right, You don't start off not a sinner, right, I'll never forget my argument. I had sitting in a parking lot with a good one of my friends. At that time. I was a Lutheran. He was Baptist, right. I used to be Baptist. I used to go to that church with him when I was a teenager. But I had moved on to become a Lutheran because well, the Baptist wouldn't to me deal with any theological issues. So I became a Lutheran. So we're sitting in a parking lot. We're having an argument, right, So he and now he learned this from his pastor, and I learned the same thing from his pastor. He took out a sheet of paper from his notebook and we grab one. Here. I'm just gonna tear one out, right, So he tore out a sheet of paper from his notebook. Right, he held it up and see you see this paper.

1:07:21 It's clean, it's not marked up, it's nice, nice, complete piece of paper. And he said, that is how we are born. And then we come along and we we mess it all up. And I'm like, your whole understanding of humanity is completely wrong. Man. We're not born like that clean piece of paper. We're born like that crumbled up piece of paper. We're born a sinner. We're born messed up. You're giving me Palyagianism, you're giving me semi pelagian He had no clue what those things were. I'm like, your pastor's teaching you Pelagia's Plagianism. You're not born without sin, You're born a center. That is what you are. You are a sinner by nature, you're a sinner. That's who you are, and therefore your sin is a reflection of who you are. You did not become a sinner by sinning. You sin because you were You were a sinner.

1:08:16 He had no, he never He completely rejected it outright and said I was wrong and didn't agree with it. And yeah, I'm like, okay, well, then go run off for your Pallagianism. But I'm not a Pelagianism Plagian. I reject Pelagianism semi Pelagianism, and you should too, because your whole understanding of man is wrong. We don't become sinners by sinning. We sin because we're sinners. And when they made that kind of comment, you become a sinner by committing one sin. That's just completely theologically in error. I don't think they actually meant that. I think that they misspoke. I don't, I know, I'm almost I know Lawson is not a He rejects Pelagianism and semi Polagianism, so I think he just dismisspoke. I know.

1:09:01 There's just no way. There's just no way. So that jumped out more to me than the other. But hopefully that answered the question. All right, that was sixty nine minutes to answer one simple question. See that's why you always get the long answer with me. All right, News I F at yahoo dot com. News I F at Yahoo dot com. Everyone have a great, great day, a great holiday weekend. If it's that for you, hopefully you have a great time. Hopefully it's wonderful for you. And well remember your challenge. It's supposed to be listening to random live webcast on the sermon's two point oh app If you hear something, see something, email me what you're hearing seeing and what questions you may have, and I'll do my very best to answer this to the original emailer. I hope this was helpful. I feel like maybe I didn't do a great job.

1:09:53 But the problem is all everything else took so long to get to the actual question, and that by the time I got to the question, we were out of time. But I don't know what else I can say, but please email me follow up questions and I will do my very best to try to respond. Thank you for listening. Everyone, have a great day. God bless