Heresy of Charles Finney

0:02 Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is the Theology Central podcast making Theology Central. Good afternoon everyone. It is Tuesday, August the twentieth, twenty twenty four. It is currently five twenty pm Central Time, and I am coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located right here in Abilene, Texas, where it's like one hundred and six degrees outside. It is miserable. It is so hot, so hot, and well that means when I broadcast, well, I have to turn off the AC unit and it gets really warm in here. So it's going to get warm here relatively quick. But so I debated, do I do it broadcast now or do I wait? But I felt like I have to do this broadcast right now because I'm looking at something on the sermon's two point o app and I'm like, that's just not right. I'm going to do what I can to fix that, to improve that, because I think everyone needs to listen to it.

1:07 So I'm going to simply the goal of this broadcast is to simply point you to a different broadcast so that you will go listen to them and give them another download, another stream. I'll give you all the information in just a second. But you know that we have been currently doing a series on revival, and we've been utilizing an article from the June seventh, twenty twenty four edition of the Sword of the Lord newspaper, and the name of the article is the Holy Spirit and Revival. And you've heard some of my frustration with the article, right, how they've quoted things from acts but skip the next verse, How they take things from acts and almost make it prescriptive instead of understanding that it's simply descriptive. Just so many issues, and whenever the subject of revival is talked about, if I'm just being honest with you, I get so frustrated by it. I get so frustrated by it. And I think the reason so much discussion about revival is so frustrating, so erroneous, so just confused, is because it's been influenced by a certain individual who is to be blamed for a lot a very wrong ideas that are very prevalent in evangelicalism and some elements of fundamentalism. He is very much responsible. Now, I can't tell you the

2:41 exactly I think the first time. I could be wrong, but I believe the very first time I ever heard this man's name mentioned was in an independent Fundamental Baptist church. I believe it was in Papillion, Nebraska, and maybe during a sermon or something, they were mentioning the need for revival. We need a revival in America. The country is falling apart. We need you know that type of message. We need revival, we need revival, we need a revival, like during the time of Charles Finnie, and I was like, who's Charles Finny? Right? So I'm like, okay, okay. So I ended up at the Divine Truth Bookstore in Papilion, Nebraska and they had a they had this little what was it called Last Call for Revival, Last Call for Saving America. I can't remember.

3:36 It was like a little comic book almost by Jack Chick Remember Chick tracks, remember that, And it was like it was like a little booklet, but it was done like almost as a comic book, right, and it was all about that, hey, we need revival. And it was based off the writings of Charles Finny. So I think that was the first time I'm like, okay, so this is what this is what revival, Liz, this is what we need for revival. And if we don't have revival, they're basically gonna come to our house and take our Bibles and we're gonna be put in prison. Okay, so I can't remember everything I carry. I had the book. I carried it with me forever because I thought, this is like summarizing Jack Chick was summarizing Charles Finney's view on revival. Well, then I started digging in and reading a little bit more about Finny and read and then I was getting a little concerned. I'm like, I don't know here, Finny some of his I think I read a systematic theology by Finny, and I'm like, whoa, some of this stuff is like really messed up. I don't know what is going on here, but this sounds really troubling, almost theoretical. And then I can't remember which John MacArthur book it was. But at the end of John MacArthur's book, I don't remember what book it was, he had like an entire section on Charles Finnie and all of the damage Charles Finnie brought into evangelism, and I was like, whoa. Okay,

5:10 so wait a minute, Charles Finnie is not the good guy. He's not the hero Okay, so I need to start rethinking my understanding of revival, which I'm still unpacking. But so many times when I listen to messages or sort of the Lord read an article about revival, and there's so much of it, I'm just like, wrong, fraudulent, disagreed, disagree, disagree. Now I'm not saying all of it goes back to Charles Finnie, but I believe a lot of it does. Now, what I'm going to do is I'm going to tell you about a message entitled how the Heresy, How the Heresy of Charles Finny Shaped America? How the Heresy of Charles Finny Shaped America. That message was published on Monday, August the nineteenth, so it was just yesterday. I've been looking at it. It's from Reformation Baptist Church. But it only has ten downloads, ten streams. That's ridiculous. Anything about how the Heresy of Charles Finni Shaped America, whether you agree or disagree, you should want to listen to it, just because they're dealing with a historical situation that may be shaping Evangelicalism or Christianity today. That that is worth your time listening to. So everyone please look up how the heresy of Charles Finny shaped America by Reformation Baptist Church.

6:41 It only has ten downloads. I will try to send out a link on the church one app to this when this broadcast is over, so that you can I want you to listen to it. I want you to download it, I want you to stream it, and I want you to consider it. We will review at least some of it, but the goal is I want them to get the download and streams because anyone willing to engage and talk about things that are well in the past that could be influencing the present. Because see a lot of times people sitting in the pew, they just think, well, that's the way church has always done. Like sometimes people in the pew just think, well, this is the way Christians have always thought. This is the right way, This is the right way to do this. This is what revival is. This is how we should do our revival, this is how we get of a revival. And they don't realize in many cases, no, no, no, no, no, people haven't always thought that way. These are ideas that have a direct line to well a certain individual or a certain period in history. And sometimes Christians think No, it goes back to the Bible. No, it goes back to in many cases, maybe a finny or you could just name an influential pastor to this individual or this individual or this individual. But a lot of Christians don't have that knowledge of history to be able to realize that what they think and how they proceed, how things should be. It's more influenced by someone in history than it is from the Bible. That happens over and over and over and christiandom because when you first enter into Christianity you don't have that context, and so everyone tells

8:13 you this is the way. You just basically, even if they don't tell you, you're just like, Okay, this is the way we do things. This is what revival is, this is what it is, and this is how we do this. This is how we do this, this is how we do an altar call. We do this, we do and you just kind of accept this is the way things are. And in your mind you're like, well, that came from Jesus. You're like, no, no, no, that came from the eighteen hundreds. Nobody was doing that before the eighteen hundreds. Nobody was doing that before the nineteen hundreds. These are new concepts, new ideas. They do not relate to church history. And sometimes when you study church history, you're like, well, wait a minute. I thought everyone was a Baptist and everyone's saying just as I am, And all right, I thought everyone did an altar call. I thought everyone had a fall revival, and you're like, no, some of those ideas have nothing to do with historical Christianity at all. Zero They didn't even show up for like eighteen hundred years, and sometimes people are shocked by that. All right, So anytime there's a broadcaster trying to get us back to see maybe how the influence of someone, now, I may not agree with them, I may disagree with him. I don't know, but I want us to all to go listen to it. So before we review that, though, let me do my own little work here on Charles Finnie, Are you ready, Charles Finny, I believe these are correct years seventeen ninety two to eighteen seventy five, seventeen ninety two to eighteen seventy five, As always, those are dates.

9:45 If I have them off or they're incorrect, please correct me. But somewhere between seventeen ninety two, and eighteen seventy five. He was a key figure and the Second Great Awakening, a period of intense religious revival in the United States during the nineteenth century. Charles Finnie is often called listen, the father of modern revivalism. Finny is often called the father of modern revivalism. Now, so that means a lot of discussion about revival or revivalism. It comes from Finny. It's not from the Word of God. It's from Charles Finny. I cannot stress that enough. Charles Finney's influence on American evangelicalism was profound, and his methods and theology left a lasting legacy. See, this is one of the things that drives me crazy again, and I have already mentioned it, but let me just I'm going to be repetitive. So many Christians think that their views are biblical. They think they came from Scripture. No, they came from the preachers you listen to, who was influenced by this preacher, who was in influenced by this And what you're being influenced is man's reasoning, man's philosophies, man's ideas, man's concepts. But you think it's coming from scripture because in many cases, the preacher just takes these ideas present them as if

11:16 they're scriptural, But in many cases they have just a direct historical line to one individual. And that's why Christians have to so many times learn to get to the scriptures themselves. Bible study methods, Bible study methods, Bible study methods, where you're laying aside all these other reference tools and you're looking at scripture. That's why I emphasize the Bible study methods over and over and over again. Now, if you don't know anything about the Second Great Awakening, this was a Protestant religious revival that began in the late eighteenth century and continued into the early nineteenth century. It was marked by a shift from traditional Calvinistic doctrines to a more armeny in theology, emphasizing free will. Right, So there was a shift theologically in America. We're going to move away from Calvinism to the idea of a libertarian free will and our many in perspective, right, there was a shift theologically. Now many cases, when you come into Christianity later on, whenever you arrive in Christianity, you don't realize it, but you're entering into a stream of influence.

12:24 You don't sometimes know what you're entering into. I had no idea when I became a Christian that I was really entering into this stream of what was known as lordship salvation that I was kind of and I didn't realize I was kind of like right there almost at the all close to the beginning of it. I wasn't right there at the beginning, but it was still very relatively it was relatively new. And then I just kind of like, well, that's Christianity. I was just like, lordship salvation, that's Christianity. It comes from the Bible, No, it has it's coming from a book called the Gospel according to Jesus by John MacArthur. Okay, but I just assume that's because I didn't know any different, right, I didn't know any difference. And I started noticing or learning a little bit of difference when I continued to challenge and question and theology, and I left being a Baptist to becoming a Lutheran, and then I was wanted to become a Lutheran pastor, and then I started learning Lutheran theology, and I still didn't quite understand, like I still didn't have enough not but I began to realize, oh, there's there's some different ways of looking at things. I still didn't quite understand because I was still bringing those lordship ideas in.

13:31 But I was beginning to realize, wait a minute, maybe these ideas, that's not all the way people have always thought. All right, but there's the second grade awakening. Now, what did FINNI bring in? What did FINNI bring in to this period the second grade awakening? Well, Finny was known for his well, it depends on how you want to define this innovative. You can call him innovative, unique, the heretical, damaging, revival techniques. Finny was known for his new measures, which included practices such as public prayers for sinners by name, the use of the anxious bench, a precursor to the modern altar call an emotionally charged direct preaching aim eliciting immediate conversions. Finny broke away from traditional Calvinist views, particularly the idea of predestination. He believed in the ability of individuals to choose salvation and emphasize human responsibility in the process of conversion. His theology was more aligned with Arminianism, focusing on the power of human will and the need for personal holiness Beyond spiritual revival, Finny was awestly, deeply involved in social issues. He was an advocate for basically abolishing you know well he was, was he I don't want to hum well, I know, he was. I I don't want to speak on that one. Okay, I'm gonna set that one to the side. I was gonna. I

15:02 was going to say it, and then I kind of stopped myself. He was known for temperance and for other social reforms, believing that true revival would lead to moral and social change. Right. So he was involved in a number of of like social issues, cultural issues. Hey, I'm going to look up something here. I'm going to look up something because I I want to make sure I'm one hundred correct here. I want to make sure here. Let's see here. Uh, let me look here. Let me see here.

15:42 I want to see I want to see here if I'm correct. Okay, Yes, okay, I wanted to I wanted to verify, Okay, I had to look something up. Yes. Finny was that he was. There was a lot of social issues that he got in and he was very much involved in let me go find this one here, Yes, Okay, all right, I wanted to make sure. I wanted to make sure Charles Finney. So he was known for being involved in a lot of these social issues, right, a lot of these social issues. And one of the things he fought and defended and basically wanted to abolish any form of slavery that's a good thing, temperance, alcohol, and other social reforms. But here's the key. His understanding of revival would lead to moral and social change. He saw revival as a way to social change. So we talked about this in our last episode, where I believe revival should be more about a spiritual I'll refer to it as a revelation where you are confronted with the reality of God and the reality of self, and then you're driven to the imputed righteousness of Christ. It's not about moral changes, not about moral reformation, it's not about social reformation.

17:08 It's about you being broken over the reality of who God is and the reality of your sin. And then you run to Christ and you're overwhelmed with a sense of gratitude and love for what Christ has done for you, which leads to a deepening relationship with Him and a more passionate pursuit of him, all right, not necessarily moral change, right, So he he went with the idea of that revival was the way to moral reformation, moral and social reformation, changing the culture, changing people along those lines, all right, So I wanted to just verify. So, yeah, he definitely was against slavery and again, these social things, many of these things that would be in complete agreement with the issue is I'm you know, well, we can get into the politics and all of those different things. Finny was instrumental on finding a college and which became a hotbed for the movement against slavery and other social reforms. And this is college was also notable for being one of the first to admit African Americans and women. So there was there was some good things he fought for. I don't think we can just overlook that, right. His abosh, his wanting to abolish and stand against slavery is a good thing. His his willingness to admit African Americans into his college, that's a good thing. There's a lot of good things Finny did. I don't think we can deny that.

18:37 There was a lot of good things he fought for, and a lot of good things he challenged, I don't I don't agree with his theology, but I don't think we can we can overlook that, all right. So I just wanted, I'm glad. I wanted to verify things and make sure, all right. So his influence, Finny's methods laid the groundwork for modern evangelical practices, including alter call and revival meetings. Please note the alter call and revival meetings. That goes more to Finny than it goes to anything in scripture. Alter call and revival meetings is a Finny influence. I think that that's very important to see, all right.

19:21 His emphasis on personal decision and the ability to choose salvation directly influence the development of evangelicalism in America. Finny was widely influential. He was also controversial. Some critics accused him of undermining traditional doctrines promoting a form of Plagianism, which I think he clearly did, the belief that original sin did not taint human nature and that humans could achieve salvation through their own efforts. Charles Finny's revivalistic work significantly shaped American Protestantism, particularly through the emphasis of individual choice and salvation, and his advocacy for social reforms. His legacy continues to influence contemporary evangelicalism. All right, So I apologize for getting a little just pausing there, But the only reason I did is I got ready to send.

20:09 I'm like, well, let me verify this. Did he did? He? Yeah? And he he did stand against slavery. So I think that that was good to clarify. All right, So there's a little bit about Finny. There's a little bit about Finny. I just wanted to make sure. Yeah, I think I think that that's I think that's good. All right. I think I think that's a good overview. But just note his influence cannot be minimized. And what you need to realize is, over and over and over, so many things that you think and have feel about Christianity, so many of that comes from other sources other than the Bible, even though you think it does. All right. Now, with that said, now let's go to the message I want you to go find again. The name of this message is how the Heresy, How the Heresy of Charles Finny shaped America? Again. This is from Reformation Baptist Church. It only has ten downloads. Ladies and Gentlemen, we need to fix that. We need to get this to one hundred, right, come on, download it, stream it all right now. No, maybe the numbers are not working because the whole sermon audio platform is having all kinds of issues with numbers and reflecting things. But yeah, okay, I think we're good.

21:29 So let's listen to this. I was gonna see if there's anything else I wanted to share about Finny, but I think I kind of give you my personal journey where I came in contact with him. I give a little bit about the second grade awakening, his techniques. Some of the things he did support that were good stood. Abolishing slavery were for that temperance. I'm definitely not a fan of alcohol, so well. Starting a college where he admitted African Americans, that's a great thing. Admitted women, Okay, that's a great thing, all right. So a lot of things he definitely stood for or we would we would be in support. Of, right. But it's theology. Mmmmmm, that's where the problems are. So let's see how this program again, how the heresy of Charles Finny shaped America Reformation Baptist Church. Let's see how they handle this. Are you ready here?

22:19 We go, Charles Finny is in hell? So why do so many churches continue to use his techniques? Okay, well, that came in with a. They came in with both barrels blazing. Okay, let let's stop. Let's stop right there. Okay, they said, Charles Finny is in hell? So why do so many churches continue to use his techniques? WHOA, let's pump the brakes on that. All right, let's pump the brakes on that. Okay, let's make this very clear. I get really nervous when Christians look at other professing Christians and saying they are in hell. Salvation is not dependent upon how perfect your theology is. Salvation is dependent on if you're looking to Jesus Christ alone for your salvation.

23:19 All right, now, I know Finny has some things that are maybe somewhat troubling. You're like, man, is he relying on works more than he is on the grace of God? But that's a problem with a lot of Christians. Okay, so they just immediately said he's in hell. He's in hell now unless they have a direct phone line to God in heaven and God is giving them information who's in heaven and who's in hell. We always need to be very very careful with that. We can say Charles Finny maybe was a heretic, we can say his teaching was heretical. But even that, I'm going to be very careful before I start seeing someone's in hell. Right, My hope is that they trusted in Christ for salvation. At the same time, their theology was an absolute mess. It was damaging, it was damning, it was heretical, and I'm not a fan and we need to speak against it.

24:08 I can condemn the theology. I'm going to be very quick careful before I start throwing people in hell because that's not my place, all right, So not a fan necessarily of that beginning, but let's see what they have to say. Charles Finny is in hell, So why do so many churches continue to use his techniques? Welcome to the Conquering Truth. I'm Dan Horne, I'm Jake quin unto it, I'm Charles Churutchill, and I'm Joshua Horne. Charles Finnian Is systematic theology says basically, when you're saved that all your sin's removed, and in his autobiography he talks about how when he was justified that all his sin just disappeared. And then he goes on and says that that, you know, the scripture proves that the there's abundant grace given to people, to believers, so that all their sins are moved. So he's confused and he's inconsistent as teaching. But he has this underlying principle that salvation is not about God, it's about man. It's about the work of man. That man does not have a nature that is depraved, that he's not dead in his sins and trespasses. So therefore you can talk anybody into going to heaven. And so based on that, he came up with a series of techniques.

25:27 It was used during the Great Awakening. All right, So they're putting forth the idea that Finny seemed it to basically teach, once you become a Christian, all your sins disappear, and I guess basically you don't sin anymore. I'm sorry, Charles Finni has influenced more Christians, and you care to admit, because Christians talk that way all the time. So I'm not even surprised by that. He holds to a Pelagian idea a more Pelagian perspective. We've talked about the eighteen points of Pelagianism, which, yeah, basically, people are not fallen in Adam and their will is completely free, and so using the right techniques, you can get them to choose God, all right. So, and of course, if you're already holding to a Pelagian view of man, then it would not be that difficult once you become a Christian not to sin, because you don't even have a sin nature before you're saved. So according to the Pelagian perspective, you could be perfect even without salvation, so obviously then you could be perfect with salvation, all right.

26:22 So okay, all right, let's see they're kind of just throwing all these accusations out. I thought maybe they would start in a little bit like, well, you know, but maybe they're just throwing these things out and then they're going to back up and give a little background and try to let's see how they approach this. For the Second Great Awakening, that were to manipulate people into accepting Christ, and the results weren't very good, but that's what he used. And from that then you see the church is adopting those same techniques. But I think one of the things that we forget is just where those techniques led to. And I think one of the things that we want to do on this podcast is go, you know, those ideas and those doctrines they lead to some really bad places, and specifically they end up with you know, we look at the drag Queen's Story Hour, Well, that really does come from Finny's theology and from Oberlin College where he was the person who set up the theological department at Oberlin. And that's actually a logical following.

27:23 So how does a theological seminary end up getting us into the state where the United States is right now? Now? I don't know if you can say Finny is responsible for drag Time story drag Time story Time. I I that Ooh, that's a wild accusation. That's a wild accusation. That's a wild accusation. Finny very much was about holiness. I don't know if that's fair in any way, shape or form. Now you could argue that once you start saying you can use these techniques, well then where do the technique sup I think this goes back to a more of a discussion about the regulative versus the normative principle, How is the church going to operate under the regulative or normative principle? You can only do what is clearly, clearly toll commanded. What is you have a clear example of is clear commanded. If you don't have that, you can't bring it into the church. You can't use it, you can't do it. That's the regulative principle. What the normative is like, I can do anything in the church.

28:26 I can bring any technique unless it is specifically prohibited in scripture. Those are wildly different philosophies. I don't think you go to Finny to blame him for that. Blame him for the techniques he used. Don't blame him with what people may have done with those techniques. Right. You may argue, well, these techniques led people to you. You look, I just I just think how people may use a technique is different than blaming the technique. Right. It's like people may take a theology and do damaging things to the theology. That doesn't make the theology wrong, It makes what people did with the theology wrong. Right, What people did with the techniques may have gone way beyond what Finny would have ever accepted. So I think that's that's pretty that's that's I don't know about that. Okay, let's see, let's see where they're gonna go here.

29:22 Well, something that that takes quite quite a bit of time, you know, because you know, Finny was back in the early you know, nineteenth century, so you know, two hundred years ago, and he before he gets into his perfectionism like you were mentioning, he was, he was a very staunch Arminian and you know, he at the time there was, you know, in the church at least that he was in, there was a lot of Calvinism. So it was kind of either there are some Armenianism out there, but there was a lot of Calvinism or universalism that the huge Armenian movement hadn't really started yet. But he's he's kind of one of the one of the people, you know, revitalizes Armenianism in America where he you know, he's a Presbyterian when he gets you know, converted quote unquote converted, and he and you know, the Presbyterians were doctrinally staunch Calvinists.

30:16 But and so he ends up going through and becoming a Presbyterian minister, where he says he you know, affirms the Westminster Confession, obviously a Calvinistic doctrine, believing the doctrines of Grace, and then later he says, well, I never read that. I had no idea this, that all that stuff is complete garbage. And so he's someone that you know now he's in he's a minister in a in a Calvinistic denomination, and he's a very staunch, aggressive Armenian really, you know, coming after Calvinism in a way that other groups hadn't before because the Methodists were Arminian, but they were a bit more passive about it often. But he was someone who was out there who would write systematic theologies, who would go you know, head to head, you know, doctrinally to argue for a minion is right.

31:00 And I think if you look in England, the Methodists were very fiercely Armenian. But in the United States they tried and basically they were defeated, and so they were a lot more low key about it because it wasn't until after people like Finni that it really starts to take off. Because the Methodists, like you said, they were Armenian, and it wasn't that they weren't trying to spread it. It's that the Baptists wouldn't accept it, the Presbyterians wouldn't accept it, and all the major denominations wouldn't accept their Armenianism. And then you have FINNI come along saying. Look at these huge crowds I have, Look at how the much success I have because all these people are following me. That then causes the churches to follow after him and say, hey, this doctrine works.

31:41 I think calling him an Emenion is showing his grace. It was a full bloom leading or rejecting original sin and the imputed rits of Christ. That's fair, and I think it's fair to say that he was a full bloom Poleage. And I think that that's fair. Now here's the question. You may be a Pelagian, maybe a semi Pelagian, maybe an Armenian, maybe a Calvinist. Salvation is not depend on whether you're a Pelagian, semi Pelagian, Armenian or a Calvinist. Salvation is dependent on you putting your faith in Jesus Christ and you're trusting in his finished work and his imputed righteousness. That's what salvation is.

32:26 So I just want to there's no there's no need to just immediately throw the man in hell. There's a there's a need to say, here's what he taught, and we reject it out right because this doctrine is heretical. I think that. I think that's important, all right, But let's let's see where they go. I mean, if you go back to this on sent out of door, I think they would have made a pretty strong, somewhat of a connection between Polaguionism and and full blown Arminianism. I mean, there was you know, there's a definite language I think there that connected those two together. So I mean, it's it's it's only. We've only tried created semi Plagianism and call it Armenianism. But how much different is it really? Is?

33:06 Right, we've softened our language over time. I mean, this is this is one of this is part of the problems, right. It's one of the real problems that have gone on because I mean you made some really bold claims in the beginning talking about over in college and talking about how that Finny has had this influence that not only has it just not only has it affected like how we do soul winning, but the theology that he's pushed and the way that he pushed it, in the way it was thought of that when we look at the world, some of the things we like, when we look at and we lamit, how could we get to the point where we would have drag queens reading to children in libraries? How could we get there? You're saying theology there. Is a causal connection, right that that theology matters. And okay, I oh see drag queen, drag Queen story time.

33:51 I was calling it drag time story time. Okay, drag queen story time. I'm sorry, trying to trying to keep all of this straight because they're just making so many accusations, so many accusations, so it's hard to keep all of this straight. So let me just stop right here. What's the I don't think it's it's it's not fair to say, well, there's are Finney's theology led to drag Queen story time? That's just no. Look, Sonomon Gomour existed before Charles Finnie. Okay, Adam, I mean Adam's sons, you know, Cain and Abel. There was murder before there was Charles Finnie. Okay, we can go on. There was that's called that what leads to many of these actions. Is human depravity not theology, right, It's human depravity operating and conflict in many cases with theology.

34:40 Now you can argue, well, some theology may give ry. I just know, I think human depravity manifests itself with or without theology. Now, some may take the a theiological position to justify it. But I don't see a lot of drag Queen storytime going I'm doing this because of the theology of Charles Finn. I don't. I'm not seeing the correlation there. I'm not seeing the correlation. All right, I'm not seeing the correlation. Let's see if they clarify any of this. And he understood that. I mean like when Joshua was saying, I mean he wasn't. There were a lot of people who would go out and all they really cared about was just maybe either preaching or technique. He said, I want to teach theology. I'm going to go out and fight with anybody. I'm going to overpower them, I'm going to beat them. I'm going to show that this is right.

35:29 He wanted to change people's minds about how they thought about God, how they thought about sin, and how they thought about the world. An his title is the Father of American Revivalism, and so you know, he might not be a household name, but in evangelical churches, he you know, he can draw a direct line to a lot of things that go on every Sunday morning, to the things that he was pushing. You know, he didn't. Now that I agree there's things going on in churches that can be directly tied back to Finny that I can agree with. Drag Queen's story time. Come on, now that that's a stretch. Okay, now I do I do it. Now, I know what they're trying to say that, But I'm just saying, a manifestation of many things is just a result of man's depravity. It doesn't require, you know, putting all the blame on Finny.

36:21 Didn't come up with all of it necessarily, but he was, you know, one of the you know, one of right, the most famous preacher from the second grade Awakening, and and he's the one who popularized these things and said, you know, you can cause revivals. You just need to use the right techniques. You need to use, you know, the right emotional appeals, the you know, the ultra call, you know, all these different things and then you can get people to be converted. Is not God's work, it is our work, and we can make it happen. And people's schedule revivals, and that comes back from I mean, that's that's phineasm right, when you schedule a revival, when you're saying man can cause a revival to happen, that is Finny. And how many churches schedule revivals, right, you see, and that they were going to have a tent revival. Well, you can't do a revival if it's the work of God.

37:09 It has to be the work of man. And that's Finny. And that was what Finny was teaching. And that's you know, Billy Graham and all his revivals, all his crusades, they all come back to Finny as the theology that was driving this thing that has really polluted the church. I mean, one of the things we really want to tie together here is I mean, I grew up in churches where Finny was held up. I was I was told that Finny was a great man of God. The people that said that, I don't think they had actually read I mean, like if they had read some of the quotes from Finny were going to read tonight. I think they would have been shocked, because what's happened is is a lot of the churches would reject many of the theological things that Finny said, but they've absolutely, like you said, they've absolutely adopted his practices. And there's this part of it where the church doesn't believe that theology causes practice. That practice and theology cannot be separated. And that's kind of your argument with Oberlin Colleges is that the theology, it flows into things, It makes real changes in the way you approach the world, and it over time that affects the culture.

38:16 And Finny was very adamant about that theology has to be practical, it has to be applied. It has to be that you don't just say, okay, there is no total depravity. What that means is that you then have to go and try to talk everybody into heaven. Because anybody can be talked into heaven. It's it's your responsibility now to save their soul. Because right so he was very much on not just I mean, there are many churches today where they may preach sound doctrine, but they don't go Therefore, you have to go do this, Finny was very adamant. Therefore you have to go do this over. And I think I do think it's very important that many of the people who promoted Finny or soted Finnie.

39:00 And I saw this in many independent Fundamental Baptist churches because they did this frequently. They would promote like they would promote one minute they're promoting Finny them, next minute they're promoting Charles Hadd't Spurgeon. And I'm like, whoa, you talk about contradictory theological perspectives. But they would act like that Spurgeon was an independent Fundamental Baptist. And I'd be like, and they And I've told before how much trouble I got into. I got kicked out of the Bible Institute, and I had to you know, I've talked about how I got back in and all the ridiculousness of it. But I got in trouble for supposedly studying Calvinism. Well, I show up, you know, you know, in the back and forth arguments with a stack of these little pamphlets right of spurgeon sermons. Right, there's these little pamphlets and I have them all marked, right, have these all of them marked? And I come back and I'm like, you have been handing out these sermons every month at the front of the church. You put them there on the altar saying, okay, hey, here's this month spurgeon sermon. Everyone take it. I took every single one of them, read every single one of them, marked all of them up.

40:07 I've got thirteen here that one hundred percent promotes and teaches Calvinism. But I'm being kicked out of the Bible Institute for possibly being a Calvinist. You're the one who's promoting it and teaching it, but none of you are reading them. It's all great to be handing out these things, but nobody's reading it. But I'm actually reading it. Well, same thing with Finny. You promoted Finny, I went and bought the books, and I come back going, what in the world are you doing? So so many Christians love to say, oh, this is a great book, or read this, or read and they've never actually even read it. And I think a lot of times with Finny, he's just promoted because well, Finny, Finny revival. We need a revival like Finny. And they've heard stories about it, they've heard antidotes.

40:50 But You're like, have you ever read a systematic theology? Have you ever gotten into his actual and you're and never mind? And so that that is very frustrating. People in College, which continues to this day as being one of the most influential universities on the left, I mean like enormously influential since Finny was there in eighteen thirty five. So much so. And it comes back to this idea that what you believe, you must change the world with it, and that was definitely Finnish few and he pushed it very hard. And one of the things that Finny would also say is that revivals are in our mini and thing that cowness do not have revivals. And you know, a lot of this discussion, you know, is kind of coming off of a book that the church is reading our church, the one no, not the one true Church, but.

41:40 Just so Oberlin College, he kind of puts it on the left. But let's be honest, even if you want to put them on the left and somehow accuse him, I don't, you know, I don't know what they are today. But Oberlin, you know, when he was advocating for abolitionism, right, for the for getting rid of slavery, when he was when he was arguing for admitting African American students and women. I mean, those are social things that I think was a good thing. A Christian college saying, hey, we can't be discriminating people and we can't be supporting the slavery of human beings. Okay, that's I think that's a good thing. They kind of somehow make it sound like a negative thing. No, a Christian university is saying, we're going to act on Christian principles. We're not going to support We're gonna be We're gonna we're gonna support abolitionism and the ending of slavery, and we're going to admit people who are our African Americans to learn theology, and we're going to let women take classes as well. Yeah, so he wants they want to say, well that college now is this big it's a big, powerful college. On the left, Well, let's talk about the positive things the college did do. I don't agree with everything Finny did or believe, but let's not you know, overlook some of these positives.

42:54 Our local church, you know, which is Revival and Revivalism by Ian Murray, and in this book he you know, starts at the first grade Awakening and then kind of goes through the end of the second grade Awakening and shows how, you know, how originally there were these true revivals that were based on you know, Calvinistic doctrine, and then how these revivalistic techniques led by you know, Finny and people like him come in and really changed the church for the worst and give us, you know, the church that we have today. And you know, he really you know even you know kind of uh shows how Finny even like in his autobiography, how he's talking about how that you know, he was saved and you know all the you know, the precher that he was under was just a you know, someone who had no understanding of salvation and and then you know, completely switched and convert to you know, follow Finny. And he kind of shows how, you know, he's he's making stuff up that you know, the it appears at the beginning of the second grade Awakening was found that on Calvinism was founded on sound doctrine. But then it quickly gets out of hand fall you know, hull, foolish practices come in, false oction comes in, Finny comes in and takes it to the next level and ends up in a bad place where the people who were supposedly being converted that there was no change in their life. And in you know, a few years, it was evident that they weren't actually saved, and you know, and.

44:15 It was. See what they just did there. People supposedly got to say it, but there was no change in their life. They just equated salvation with change in life. You equate salvation not with change in life. You equate salvation with faith in Jesus Christ, who keeps the law for you. And you're saved by an imputed righteousness, not an infused righteousness. If I'm saved by an infused righteousness, I look for a change of life. If I'm saved by an imputed righteousness, I don't look to the change in my life. I look to the perfection and Christ's life. So they're going after Finny and they just well, what is that?

44:58 Okay, it's even evident to Finny, right, even Phinny recanized that the people that allegedly were saved by him, but then being a full blown or many interor plagion, is that he would say, well, they lost their salvation because. He saved them. It was just that they then lost they destroyed their salvation. And so. You know, with that view, that also means that you can say whatever you did was pragmatic and worked, and then it was their fault that it felt that they fell away, and not your fault that they weren't really saved in the first place. And so his techniques never got challenged because he came up with an excuse as to why his techniques couldn't be challenged. I mean, one of the other things the book really lays out, I think really clearly is that there was a war within within Christianity over these issues that was going on during that time period. I mean, Finny was actively going to war, like we've talked about, and one of the things that was happening was people who had sound doctrine were basically going, well, we know Finny loves God.

45:58 Even though Finny was out there preaching sermons like where he would say create make in yourself a new heart, create a new heart in yourself. He will quote where God says, I will put a new heart in you. I want you to take your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And then he would preach making yourself a new heart, and he was saying things like that, and Finny was going, how can two walk together unless they be agreed. He was attacking the doctrinal issues, and they were really they were refusing to actually go to war over doctrine. They were refusing to call him out and say to mark him as a man that needs to be avoided, to mark him is someone that was evil. And that continue, Like I said, that continues. I mean, if you go and look online, there are a lot of churches that will call Finny out today. But the practice of the church, if you look at it, we're still we're not really calling out that practice.

46:43 And what happened is. Again they're making strong accusations. Here's what I would say. His theology, I got no problem saying his theology was evil, his theology was heretical, his theology was messed up. I'm not going to get into did he love God? Not love God? I'm not going to get did he believe in God? Not believe in God? Was he trusting in Christ? Not trusting in Christ? Unless I've got a clear quote from him saying I do not trust in Christ for my salvation. I reject the sacrificial, the substitutionary atonement, of Jesus Christ for my sins. Now, if you've got something like that, then okay. And by no means am I an expert on Vinnie. So I got no problem. If you've got that and we can look at it, I just oh, we can condemn the theology, we can condemn the practice. Maybe a man who was very confused theologically.

47:34 But what's required for salvation is simply trusting in Christ for your salvation, acknowledging you are a sinner and you need Christ salvation. That's what it's about. Its like in eighteen thirty five when he's you know, Oberlin College is trying to recruit him and Hudson College is trying to recruit him both to be the head of their theology department. But Hudson College is saying, this is a man of God, and so when we confront him with the truth of soteriology, he will repent and he will start to preach the truth. So we want to recruit him. Really stupid when you think about it, but this is what Hudson College. Was trying to do.

48:15 Will recruit him to be the head of the ar theology department, and then we'll change his theology so that it's the correct biblical theology. And Oberlin College is already the founder of it, already believed in in you know, what is an entire sanctification is the term that they use for sinless perfectionism. That he already believed in entire sanctification. So he's trying to recruit Finny to overland in Hudson. He didn't want to change him at all, and Hudson's trying to go, look, if we got him in here, we know he's a man of God, so we can change him instead of going a. Wolf's a wolf. But they couldn't see the doctrine actually makes people wolves. If you reject the nature of God, if you reject the nature of man, you are a wolf if you're trying to lead churches, so why would you invite a wolf in to teach at seminary?

49:06 And they were being forced or forcing themselves to accept him because the way that it had been set up is either you are with Finni and for revivals, or you're against Finny and against revivals because look at the great results Phinny's getting. Look at how you know people are having these dramatic reactions when Phinny's preaching look at all the professions of faith he has. Do you not like professions of faith? You know, if you. Don't like Finny, you don't like you don't like salvation. And so that's how Phinny with intentionally portraying it, and in the people are having trouble, you know, you know, drawing lines in this then and saying saying no, just because you look you look good when you look at it, you know from a certain angle, just because you look good doesn't mean that you are good.

49:48 And it goes back to what happens at churches today, which is the same Finny theology, which is, it doesn't matter what Christ you profess, as long as you profess somebody who you call Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if he's an idol, as long as his name is Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if he's the god of scripture. As long as you name the name of. Jesus Christ, you will be saved. And so they make Jesus into an idol like Finny did. And the response wasn't of the church? Now these people should really think, I mean, not that God can't save them. God can do what ever he wants, but these people that are responding to Phinny should think they're responding to a man, not the Holy Spirit.

50:30 And then you know, with Finny we have the benefit, you know, of being able to look at where he ends up, which is in the Christian perfection, the saying basically that a full, complete, perfect obedience is possible in this life and even required in this life. And so here's a quote. Now they're getting ready to make a quote. I was going to look up some things here. Charles Finny's beliefs about God, Jesus, and salvation were controversial and diverged in several key areas from what is traditionally considered orthodox Christianity. Right, So here's some things.

51:11 When it comes to Finney's view on God. In Jesus, Finny accepted the traditional Christian view of God as triune being, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. He believed in the divinity of Jesus Christ and the necessity of christ atonement for sin. However, his understanding on how salvation was applied differed significantly from traditional views. So let's just make sure we understand that he believed in the triune God, he believed in the divinity of Christ, and he believed in the necessity of Christ's atonement for sin. Now we may disagree with everything after that, but I see where you got to be careful about throwing the man into hell. Now his views of salvation. He believed in human responsibility and free will, he believed in moral government, rejected original sin, and he believed in perfectionism. All right, so those things I completely disagree with almost everything he believes after that. But if he believes in the Trinity, he believes in the deity, and he believes in the necessary of christ atonement for sin, I mean, I'm saying everything else may be a complete train wreck, But I mean, does that not is salvation based off what Jesus did? Or is it based off what we believe about certain philological issues?

52:33 Quote from Finny's ratings where he talks about that this was just the revelation that I needed. I felt myself justified by faith, and so far as I could see, I was in the state in which I did not sin, instead of feeling that I was sinning all the time. My heart was so full of love that it overflowed. My cup ran over with blessing them with love, and I could not feel that I was sinning against God, nor could I cover the least sense of guilt for my past sins this experience, I said nothing that I could recollect at the time to anybody that is of this experience of justification. He's talking about, you know, his conversion experience, and he's saying that, you know, he has this feeling that he's moved to this state where he no longer where he's not sinning anymore.

53:23 And let me make it very clear, his perfectionism is completely heretical. But I want to make it very clear. I've heard Christians of all philological backgrounds basically make it sound like when you become a Christian, now you can say yes to God, you can say no to sin. And they may not teach perfectionism, but they sure at least imply it that you can almost become that. So if you're going to condemn Fenny for that, we need to condemn a good portion of evangelicalism Christianity, even within any reform circles. And the big problem with Finny right is he is a liar. He lies all. The time, and so there were years where he was saying he sinned after he was saved, and then later he rewrites his history and says, no Ah, my sin disappeared when I was justified. So he changed his life story to fix what he has now adopted as his doctrine, like he teaches in his systematic theology.

54:21 If you read that first quote, somebody might go, well, he's just describing an experience. But here in a systematic theology, he's actually going to talk about justification in a theological manner. Full present obedience is a condition of justification. But again to the question, can man be justified while sin remains in him? Surely he cannot, either upon legal or Gospel principles, unless the law be repealed. But can he be pardoned and accepted and justified in the Gospel sense while sin, any degree of sin remains in him. Certainly not. And so Finny is saying there very clearly, if I believe, if I believe that I've been justified, anytime that I say I've been justified, there can be no sin in me at all.

55:09 Now I believe that's completely heretical. But see that to me is not that far removed from lordship salvation. Well, if you were saved, you were gonna do this, this, this, and this and this, and if you don't do this, then you were never saved. And now it may not be as extreme as they'll be literally no sin, but it's almost like, well, you're gonna do this, and you're gonna do this, and if you don't do this, then you're not saved. And even they made a reference, well, some of these people who made a profession of faith, well their lives were never changed, so they were not saved. So even you were acknowledging salvation requires a certain level of change or you're not saved. I believe both sides are wrong. Salvation is about the perfection of Christ, not any change sin, lack of sin, level of sin. In me, it's all in the perfection in Christ. Now, look what Finny is saying there, I I believe is completely heretical and it borderlines destroying the Gospel. I got no problem coming close to saying that he believes you're saved by works.

56:07 I got no problem saying that that's very close. So I got no problem calling into question that, Hey, this theology is very very close to absolute damitable heresy. I got no problem saying that. But I just see that there's a lot of similarity to it. And how you find in other circles that these guys would say is okay, I think it's prevalent everywhere. So all right, let's continue, We'll wrap this. We're going to wrap up our review part. Remember the goal here was not for me to do much of a review. The goal is for me for you to get you to go listen to this. But I'm just getting you started. There can be no sin whatsoever, and I mean, he says later, he says, if a Christian sins, then he in that period of time is no different than an unsaved man under the law, under the condemnation of the law, under what is going on, he would be identical to an unsaved man. And so if Finny holds that he has been justified and has maintained being justified for any period of time, it is by being without sin. Because he's very clear, it is impossible to be justified and have sin present in you.

57:14 Because there's there's different flavors of sinless perfectionism. There's people who say, well, you know it is possible, you know. So there was a lady when I was growing up, we would go to a nursing home to a Bible study, and the lady every single time for like years, or ask the question is it possible. To live in? Is it possible to live in this life and not sin? So so she's saying is perfection possible? Not that you have to have it, but is it possible when the answer is no, if you're wondering. But that's that's one type of sinless perfectionism, that is it possible to be perfect? And then there's other ones that say you know you have it's expected of you, or that to be a Christian you have to be perfect, and that if you're not perfect, you're not a Christian. Then you also have the question of well, when someone does sin, are able to be saved again or is it a permanent thing?

58:02 You have to be permanently perfect from salvation and then you can get like I mean, obviously no one's perfect, So how do you get to perfection? Some people get to perfection by saying you throw out the law. But Finny actually was against Antiinomianism at least how he defined it. He believed in God's law and said you have to keep God's law to be perfect, and he said you can if you sin, there is a you can repent and then be saved and go to heaven. But you do, you know, you have to get back to that perfect state, and it's. Your work that cleanses you from that sin because you must repent. But he still does have to redefine the law to say, like, well, you can't commit adulterree, but you know the whole thing about having sinful desires, about having lust and that that being sin and that being adult rate, Well that doesn't work to say you're perfect.

58:49 To be sinned for any to be sin free for any period of time, even if if you say the law still exists. You have to diminish the law. There's no you know, or just be it just a major hitt. But you have to be both. But and some sometimes you just have to be really blind, right, because Finny is rewriting his life story and he does that in his autobiography a lot, and he does that throughout his life, and as his theology changes, he rewrites what happened to him before. And yeah, he kind of explains it. Yeah, I didn't say anything to anybody. But he said the opposite to people, So that meant that he lied then, which means that he wasn't saved. According to his own definition. And so he's in this situation where he's proven to not be a believer because he believes false doctrine and then he lies about the doctrine that he believes, or he's so blinded by his sin that he's lying about it.

59:41 But either way, he. See what they just did. He's proven not to be a believer because of his actions. Oh so he has to be perfect in order to be a believer. Isn't that what you're condemning Finny for believing. You're pointing out that he he was involved in lying, deceit, he believed in false things. I got no problem saying all of that is true. But his being a believer is believing in the perfection of Christ. Because you are a sinner. You're saying, no, no, no, no, it's it's not about being perfect being to be a believer. But then you're condemning him for his lack of perfection and therefore saying he's not a believer. So is it based on what we do or is it not based on what we do?

1:00:27 You're literally kind of setting up the exact same system. Well, you can't do this. You can't do this because if you do this, you're not a believer. Well, the only difference is you just say you have to reach a certain level of goodness to be a believer. You're just not going as far as Finny was saying you have to get to perfection. You're like, well, we can't get to perfection, but we have to get to a certain level, or we're not a believer. I'm saying both systems are fraudulent. You're a believer based on the finished work of Jesus Christ. Nothing to do with what you do or don't do. Is not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible. He's not believing in the God who sent his son so that the Father would be exalted.

1:01:10 Again, that's a major claim that he doesn't believe in the God of the Bible. I don't know. He may have some wrong ideas, but from my understanding, he believed in the Trinity, believed in the deity of Christ, and believed in the atonement being necessary. The atonement provided by Jesus was necessary for our salvation. So I don't know. You can go listen to the rest. The whole goal here, I know already went an hour. The goal was just to say go listen to this. It's called how the Heresy of Charles Finny shaped America, How the Heresy of Charles Finny shaped America from Reformation Baptist Church and only has ten downloads. I don't know why it only has ten.

1:01:52 Those numbers are wrong, those have to be wrong. Go listen to it, go download it, follow them, and give them your full attention, because whether I agree or disagree, it's I'm so happy to see someone dealing with such an important subject. And I do apologize when I was describing. Let me go back to what I was going to originally read because I misread it. I corrected it, but I still was. It bothered me the whole time that I stumbled over it. Let me see where I found it. Where is it? Hang on if I can, If I can find it, let me go go all the way back here to the top, because I had pulled some notes on Finny. Oh here it is beyond spiritual revival.

1:02:35 Phinny was also deeply involved in social issues. He was an advocate for abolitionism. There we go, so I wanted to. I was going to say it incorrectly. The main reason I stopped myself was now because I knew I was getting ready to say it incorrectly. I was going to say a bowlinish abolitionism. I was going to say abolish, but abolitionism. The reason I stopped myself was immediately I was like, well, wait a minute, Wait a minute, wait a minute, is that okay? Did he advocate for that? So then I had to look up. I had to check check another source. Yes, he definitely supported abolitionism. Let me go back and find the rest of this quote. Abolitionism, temperance, and other social reforms, believing that true revival would lead to moral and social change. So I do apologize for some reason, I got to abolitionism, and my I was.

1:03:23 I was first going, wait a minute, did Finny support abolitionism? So there was my first thought. The second thought was am I saying the word correct or not correct? So because I thought I was going to be like, well, wait a minute, abolitionism, wait what? And so then I had to correct myself in real time. So I apologize for that. I know how to say the word abolitionism, okay, but I was I was just like, wait a minute, did Finny, are we sure about that? I know the temperance thing. I know that I know many social reforms. I know that, okay, and then then I had to realize Okay, Oberlin College, Okay, wait, they did first college, one of the first call just to admit African American students. Okay, okay, all right, so then it all started making sense. But I was in real time, and I apologize for that.

1:04:07 I always like to correct my mistakes when I can, and when I don't, well, I apologize, but I want main thing is the goal here wasn't for me to give you even that overview on Finny. My goal here was to get you go listen to how the heresy of Charles Finny shaped America, and it is Reformation Baptist church. I'm going to hit play on this on here, I'm going to see here and then hit play. Choles Finny is in hell, so why do so many churches continue to use his techniques? Okay? Yeah, the numbers aren't working. I was like, nobody since this has went and downloaded it. Okay, their numbers aren't working, so maybe ten something is wrong with that.

1:04:53 But let's get that number up to well over one hundred. Because I'm just grateful that those guys got together turn on a microphone and covering a very important individual in church history, which utterly has shaped how Probably there's a lot of things your church is doing that comes from Finny. There may be things you believe that come from FINNI. So I'm not willing to necessarily throw him into hell, because that's not my place. God is the judge. I'm not. What can I judge his theology? What can I judge his techniques, and I can throw them out. What I can't do is necessarily throw him out of out of the Kingdom of God. What I can do is says I got no problem even referring to him as a heretical or as a heretic in some of his theology.

1:05:43 But from what we can tell, he seemed to believe in the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and the necessary, the necessity of the atonement of Jesus Christ for our sins. So that sounds pretty straightforward. Everything after that is a total and complete train wreck. It may even be contradictory to those beliefs. But I mean, I have problems with people's theology all over the place. So even even these guys, I was like, well, wait a minute, you're saying, well, these people weren't saved, and these people weren't saved because their lives weren't changed. So you're kind of requiring a level of perfection in them in order to prove to be safe. So I feel like you're doing in some ways just it's a Finny light. You're just not going as far as Finny went. And I think both sides are wrong. Salvation is not dependent on what I do or don't do. It's dependent on what Christ did the end.

1:06:32 All right, So we'll stop right there. Thanks for listening. Everyone, have a great evening. Hey, go listen to it. How the heresy of Charles Finny shaped America. Go listen to it, Share it with your friends and family, have a good conversation about it. Give them a thousand downloads, follow them, listen to everything else they did, because I want to support other ministries as well, and I'm just grateful. I mean, we obviously, you know, we could have a good back and forth. We may not agree, we probably would agree on a lot because I'm definitely much more. I mean, I'm very reformed to my soteriology. But I just yeah, but hey, that's where you come in. Now, you go listen and tell me what you think. Everyone, have a great evening, God bless