Aug. 21, 2024

Heresy of Charles Finney

Heresy of Charles Finney

A recommendation of a message about the heresy of Charles Finney

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A recommendation of a message about the heresy of Charles Finney

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Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is

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the Theology Central podcast making Theology Central. Good afternoon everyone.

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It is Tuesday, August the twentieth, twenty twenty four. It

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is currently five twenty pm Central Time, and I am

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coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located

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right here in Abilene, Texas, where it's like one hundred

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and six degrees outside. It is miserable. It is so hot,

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so hot, and well that means when I broadcast, well,

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I have to turn off the AC unit and it

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gets really warm in here. So it's going to get

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warm here relatively quick. But so I debated, do I

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do it broadcast now or do I wait? But I

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felt like I have to do this broadcast right now

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because I'm looking at something on the sermon's two point

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o app and I'm like, that's just not right. I'm

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going to do what I can to fix that, to

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improve that, because I think everyone needs to listen to it.

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So I'm going to simply the goal of this broadcast

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is to simply point you to a different broadcast so

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that you will go listen to them and give them

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another download, another stream. I'll give you all the information

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in just a second. But you know that we have

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been currently doing a series on revival, and we've been

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utilizing an article from the June seventh, twenty twenty four

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edition of the Sword of the Lord newspaper, and the

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name of the article is the Holy Spirit and Revival.

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And you've heard some of my frustration with the article, right,

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how they've quoted things from acts but skip the next verse,

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How they take things from acts and almost make it

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prescriptive instead of understanding that it's simply descriptive. Just so

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many issues, and whenever the subject of revival is talked about,

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if I'm just being honest with you, I get so

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frustrated by it. I get so frustrated by it. And

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I think the reason so much discussion about revival is

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so frustrating, so erroneous, so just confused, is because it's

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been influenced by a certain individual who is to be

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blamed for a lot a very wrong ideas that are

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very prevalent in evangelicalism and some elements of fundamentalism. He

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is very much responsible. Now, I can't tell you the

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exactly I think the first time. I could be wrong,

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but I believe the very first time I ever heard

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this man's name mentioned was in an independent Fundamental Baptist church.

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I believe it was in Papillion, Nebraska, and maybe during

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a sermon or something, they were mentioning the need for revival.

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We need a revival in America. The country is falling apart.

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We need you know that type of message. We need revival,

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we need revival, we need a revival, like during the

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time of Charles Finnie, and I was like, who's Charles Finny? Right?

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So I'm like, okay, okay. So I ended up at

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the Divine Truth Bookstore in Papilion, Nebraska and they had

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a they had this little what was it called Last

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Call for Revival, Last Call for Saving America. I can't remember.

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It was like a little comic book almost by Jack

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Chick Remember Chick tracks, remember that, And it was like

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it was like a little booklet, but it was done

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like almost as a comic book, right, and it was

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all about that, hey, we need revival. And it was

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based off the writings of Charles Finny. So I think

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that was the first time I'm like, okay, so this

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is what this is what revival, Liz, this is what

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we need for revival. And if we don't have revival,

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they're basically gonna come to our house and take our

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Bibles and we're gonna be put in prison. Okay, so

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I can't remember everything I carry. I had the book.

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I carried it with me forever because I thought, this

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is like summarizing Jack Chick was summarizing Charles Finney's view

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on revival. Well, then I started digging in and reading

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a little bit more about Finny and read and then

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I was getting a little concerned. I'm like, I don't

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know here, Finny some of his I think I read

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a systematic theology by Finny, and I'm like, whoa, some

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of this stuff is like really messed up. I don't

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know what is going on here, but this sounds really troubling,

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almost theoretical. And then I can't remember which John MacArthur

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book it was. But at the end of John MacArthur's book,

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I don't remember what book it was, he had like

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an entire section on Charles Finnie and all of the

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damage Charles Finnie brought into evangelism, and I was like, whoa. Okay,

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so wait a minute, Charles Finnie is not the good guy.

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He's not the hero Okay, so I need to start

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rethinking my understanding of revival, which I'm still unpacking. But

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so many times when I listen to messages or sort

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of the Lord read an article about revival, and there's

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so much of it, I'm just like, wrong, fraudulent, disagreed, disagree, disagree.

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Now I'm not saying all of it goes back to

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Charles Finnie, but I believe a lot of it does. Now,

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what I'm going to do is I'm going to tell

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you about a message entitled how the Heresy, How the

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Heresy of Charles Finny Shaped America? How the Heresy of

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Charles Finny Shaped America. That message was published on Monday,

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August the nineteenth, so it was just yesterday. I've been

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looking at it. It's from Reformation Baptist Church. But it

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only has ten downloads, ten streams. That's ridiculous. Anything about

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how the Heresy of Charles Finni Shaped America, whether you

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agree or disagree, you should want to listen to it,

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just because they're dealing with a historical situation that may

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be shaping Evangelicalism or Christianity today. That that is worth

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your time listening to. So everyone please look up how

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the heresy of Charles Finny shaped America by Reformation Baptist Church.

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It only has ten downloads. I will try to send

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out a link on the church one app to this

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when this broadcast is over, so that you can I

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want you to listen to it. I want you to

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download it, I want you to stream it, and I

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want you to consider it. We will review at least

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some of it, but the goal is I want them

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to get the download and streams because anyone willing to

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engage and talk about things that are well in the

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past that could be influencing the present. Because see a

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lot of times people sitting in the pew, they just think, well,

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that's the way church has always done. Like sometimes people

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in the pew just think, well, this is the way

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Christians have always thought. This is the right way, This

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is the right way to do this. This is what

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revival is. This is how we should do our revival,

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this is how we get of a revival. And they

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don't realize in many cases, no, no, no, no, no,

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people haven't always thought that way. These are ideas that

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have a direct line to well a certain individual or

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a certain period in history. And sometimes Christians think No,

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it goes back to the Bible. No, it goes back

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to in many cases, maybe a finny or you could

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just name an influential pastor to this individual or this

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individual or this individual. But a lot of Christians don't

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have that knowledge of history to be able to realize

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that what they think and how they proceed, how things

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should be. It's more influenced by someone in history than

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it is from the Bible. That happens over and over

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and over and christiandom because when you first enter into

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Christianity you don't have that context, and so everyone tells

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you this is the way. You just basically, even if

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they don't tell you, you're just like, Okay, this is the

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way we do things. This is what revival is, this

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is what it is, and this is how we do this.

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This is how we do this, this is how we

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do an altar call. We do this, we do and

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you just kind of accept this is the way things are.

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And in your mind you're like, well, that came from Jesus.

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You're like, no, no, no, that came from the eighteen hundreds.

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Nobody was doing that before the eighteen hundreds. Nobody was

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doing that before the nineteen hundreds. These are new concepts,

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new ideas. They do not relate to church history. And

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sometimes when you study church history, you're like, well, wait

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a minute. I thought everyone was a Baptist and everyone's

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saying just as I am, And all right, I thought

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everyone did an altar call. I thought everyone had a

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fall revival, and you're like, no, some of those ideas

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have nothing to do with historical Christianity at all. Zero

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They didn't even show up for like eighteen hundred years,

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and sometimes people are shocked by that. All right, So

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anytime there's a broadcaster trying to get us back to

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see maybe how the influence of someone, now, I may

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not agree with them, I may disagree with him. I

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don't know, but I want us to all to go

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listen to it. So before we review that, though, let

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me do my own little work here on Charles Finnie,

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Are you ready, Charles Finny, I believe these are correct

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years seventeen ninety two to eighteen seventy five, seventeen ninety

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two to eighteen seventy five, As always, those are dates.

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If I have them off or they're incorrect, please correct me.

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But somewhere between seventeen ninety two, and eighteen seventy five.

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He was a key figure and the Second Great Awakening,

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a period of intense religious revival in the United States

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during the nineteenth century. Charles Finnie is often called listen,

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the father of modern revivalism. Finny is often called the

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father of modern revivalism. Now, so that means a lot

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of discussion about revival or revivalism. It comes from Finny.

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It's not from the Word of God. It's from Charles Finny.

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I cannot stress that enough. Charles Finney's influence on American

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evangelicalism was profound, and his methods and theology left a

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lasting legacy. See, this is one of the things that

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drives me crazy again, and I have already mentioned it,

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but let me just I'm going to be repetitive. So

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many Christians think that their views are biblical. They think

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they came from Scripture. No, they came from the preachers

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you listen to, who was influenced by this preacher, who

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was in influenced by this And what you're being influenced

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is man's reasoning, man's philosophies, man's ideas, man's concepts. But

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you think it's coming from scripture because in many cases,

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the preacher just takes these ideas present them as if

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they're scriptural, But in many cases they have just a

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direct historical line to one individual. And that's why Christians

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have to so many times learn to get to the

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scriptures themselves. Bible study methods, Bible study methods, Bible study methods,

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where you're laying aside all these other reference tools and

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you're looking at scripture. That's why I emphasize the Bible

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study methods over and over and over again. Now, if

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you don't know anything about the Second Great Awakening, this

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was a Protestant religious revival that began in the late

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eighteenth century and continued into the early nineteenth century. It

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was marked by a shift from traditional Calvinistic doctrines to

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a more armeny in theology, emphasizing free will. Right, So

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there was a shift theologically in America. We're going to

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move away from Calvinism to the idea of a libertarian

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free will and our many in perspective, right, there was

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a shift theologically. Now many cases, when you come into

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Christianity later on, whenever you arrive in Christianity, you don't

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realize it, but you're entering into a stream of influence.

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You don't sometimes know what you're entering into. I had

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no idea when I became a Christian that I was

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really entering into this stream of what was known as

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lordship salvation that I was kind of and I didn't

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realize I was kind of like right there almost at

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the all close to the beginning of it. I wasn't

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right there at the beginning, but it was still very

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relatively it was relatively new. And then I just kind

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of like, well, that's Christianity. I was just like, lordship salvation,

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that's Christianity. It comes from the Bible, No, it has

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it's coming from a book called the Gospel according to

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Jesus by John MacArthur. Okay, but I just assume that's

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because I didn't know any different, right, I didn't know

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any difference. And I started noticing or learning a little

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bit of difference when I continued to challenge and question

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and theology, and I left being a Baptist to becoming

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a Lutheran, and then I was wanted to become a

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Lutheran pastor, and then I started learning Lutheran theology, and

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I still didn't quite understand, like I still didn't have

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enough not but I began to realize, oh, there's there's

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some different ways of looking at things. I still didn't

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quite understand because I was still bringing those lordship ideas in.

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But I was beginning to realize, wait a minute, maybe

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these ideas, that's not all the way people have always thought.

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All right, but there's the second grade awakening. Now, what

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did FINNI bring in? What did FINNI bring in to

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this period the second grade awakening? Well, Finny was known

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for his well, it depends on how you want to

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define this innovative. You can call him innovative, unique, the heretical, damaging,

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revival techniques. Finny was known for his new measures, which

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included practices such as public prayers for sinners by name,

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the use of the anxious bench, a precursor to the

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modern altar call an emotionally charged direct preaching aim eliciting

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immediate conversions. Finny broke away from traditional Calvinist views, particularly

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the idea of predestination. He believed in the ability of

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individuals to choose salvation and emphasize human responsibility in the

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process of conversion. His theology was more aligned with Arminianism,

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focusing on the power of human will and the need

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for personal holiness Beyond spiritual revival, Finny was awestly, deeply

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involved in social issues. He was an advocate for basically

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abolishing you know well he was, was he I don't

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want to hum well, I know, he was. I I

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don't want to speak on that one. Okay, I'm gonna

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set that one to the side. I was gonna. I

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was going to say it, and then I kind of

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stopped myself. He was known for temperance and for other

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social reforms, believing that true revival would lead to moral

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and social change. Right. So he was involved in a

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number of of like social issues, cultural issues. Hey, I'm

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going to look up something here. I'm going to look

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up something because I I want to make sure I'm

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one hundred correct here. I want to make sure here.

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Let's see here. Uh, let me look here. Let me

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see here.

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I want to see I want to see here if

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I'm correct. Okay, Yes, okay, I wanted to I wanted

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to verify, Okay, I had to look something up.

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Yes.

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Finny was that he was. There was a lot of

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social issues that he got in and he was very

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much involved in let me go find this one here, Yes, Okay,

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all right, I wanted to make sure. I wanted to

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make sure Charles Finney. So he was known for being

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involved in a lot of these social issues, right, a

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lot of these social issues. And one of the things

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he fought and defended and basically wanted to abolish any

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form of slavery that's a good thing, temperance, alcohol, and

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other social reforms. But here's the key. His understanding of

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revival would lead to moral and social change. He saw

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revival as a way to social change. So we talked

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about this in our last episode, where I believe revival

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should be more about a spiritual I'll refer to it

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as a revelation where you are confronted with the reality

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of God and the reality of self, and then you're

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driven to the imputed righteousness of Christ. It's not about

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moral changes, not about moral reformation, it's not about social reformation.

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It's about you being broken over the reality of who

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God is and the reality of your sin. And then

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you run to Christ and you're overwhelmed with a sense

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of gratitude and love for what Christ has done for you,

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which leads to a deepening relationship with Him and a

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more passionate pursuit of him, all right, not necessarily moral change, right,

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So he he went with the idea of that revival

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was the way to moral reformation, moral and social reformation,

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changing the culture, changing people along those lines, all right,

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So I wanted to just verify. So, yeah, he definitely

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was against slavery and again, these social things, many of

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these things that would be in complete agreement with the

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issue is I'm you know, well, we can get into

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the politics and all of those different things. Finny was

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instrumental on finding a college and which became a hotbed

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for the movement against slavery and other social reforms. And

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this is college was also notable for being one of

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the first to admit African Americans and women. So there

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was there was some good things he fought for. I

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don't think we can just overlook that, right. His abosh,

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his wanting to abolish and stand against slavery is a

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good thing. His his willingness to admit African Americans into

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his college, that's a good thing. There's a lot of

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good things Finny did. I don't think we can deny that.

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There was a lot of good things he fought for,

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and a lot of good things he challenged, I don't

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I don't agree with his theology, but I don't think

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we can we can overlook that, all right. So I

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just wanted, I'm glad. I wanted to verify things and

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make sure, all right. So his influence, Finny's methods laid

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the groundwork for modern evangelical practices, including alter call and

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revival meetings. Please note the alter call and revival meetings.

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That goes more to Finny than it goes to anything

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in scripture. Alter call and revival meetings is a Finny influence.

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I think that that's very important to see, all right.

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His emphasis on personal decision and the ability to choose

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salvation directly influence the development of evangelicalism in America. Finny

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was widely influential. He was also controversial. Some critics accused

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him of undermining traditional doctrines promoting a form of Plagianism,

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which I think he clearly did, the belief that original

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sin did not taint human nature and that humans could

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achieve salvation through their own efforts. Charles Finny's revivalistic work

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significantly shaped American Protestantism, particularly through the emphasis of individual

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choice and salvation, and his advocacy for social reforms. His

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legacy continues to influence contemporary evangelicalism. All right, So I

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apologize for getting a little just pausing there, But the

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only reason I did is I got ready to send.

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I'm like, well, let me verify this. Did he did? He? Yeah?

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And he he did stand against slavery. So I think

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that that was good to clarify. All right, So there's

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a little bit about Finny. There's a little bit about Finny.

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I just wanted to make sure. Yeah, I think I

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think that that's I think that's good.

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All right.

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I think I think that's a good overview. But just

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note his influence cannot be minimized. And what you need

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to realize is, over and over and over, so many

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things that you think and have feel about Christianity, so

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many of that comes from other sources other than the Bible,

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even though you think it does. All right. Now, with

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that said, now let's go to the message I want

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you to go find again. The name of this message

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is how the Heresy, How the Heresy of Charles Finny

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shaped America? Again. This is from Reformation Baptist Church. It

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only has ten downloads. Ladies and Gentlemen, we need to

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fix that. We need to get this to one hundred, right,

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come on, download it, stream it all right now. No,

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maybe the numbers are not working because the whole sermon

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audio platform is having all kinds of issues with numbers

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and reflecting things. But yeah, okay, I think we're good.

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So let's listen to this. I was gonna see if

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there's anything else I wanted to share about Finny, but

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I think I kind of give you my personal journey

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where I came in contact with him. I give a

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little bit about the second grade awakening, his techniques. Some

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of the things he did support that were good stood.

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Abolishing slavery were for that temperance. I'm definitely not a

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fan of alcohol, so well. Starting a college where he

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admitted African Americans, that's a great thing. Admitted women, Okay,

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that's a great thing, all right. So a lot of

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things he definitely stood for or we would we would

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be in support.

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Of, right.

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But it's theology. Mmmmmm, that's where the problems are. So

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let's see how this program again, how the heresy of

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Charles Finny shaped America Reformation Baptist Church. Let's see how

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they handle this. Are you ready here?

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We go, Charles Finny is in hell?

363
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So why do so many churches continue to use his techniques?

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Okay, well, that came in with a. They came in

365
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with both barrels blazing. Okay, let let's stop. Let's stop

366
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right there. Okay, they said, Charles Finny is in hell?

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So why do so many churches continue to use his techniques? WHOA,

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let's pump the brakes on that. All right, let's pump

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the brakes on that. Okay, let's make this very clear.

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I get really nervous when Christians look at other professing

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Christians and saying they are in hell. Salvation is not

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dependent upon how perfect your theology is. Salvation is dependent

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on if you're looking to Jesus Christ alone for your salvation.

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All right, now, I know Finny has some things that

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are maybe somewhat troubling. You're like, man, is he relying

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on works more than he is on the grace of God?

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But that's a problem with a lot of Christians. Okay,

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so they just immediately said he's in hell. He's in

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hell now unless they have a direct phone line to

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God in heaven and God is giving them information who's

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in heaven and who's in hell. We always need to

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be very very careful with that. We can say Charles

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Finny maybe was a heretic, we can say his teaching

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was heretical. But even that, I'm going to be very

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careful before I start seeing someone's in hell. Right, My

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hope is that they trusted in Christ for salvation. At

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the same time, their theology was an absolute mess. It

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was damaging, it was damning, it was heretical, and I'm

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not a fan and we need to speak against it.

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I can condemn the theology. I'm going to be very

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quick careful before I start throwing people in hell because

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that's not my place, all right, So not a fan

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necessarily of that beginning, but let's see what they have

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to say.

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Charles Finny is in hell, So why do so many

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churches continue to use his techniques? Welcome to the Conquering Truth.

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I'm Dan Horne, I'm Jake quin unto it, I'm Charles Churutchill,

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and I'm Joshua Horne.

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Charles Finnian Is systematic theology says basically, when you're saved

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that all your sin's removed, and in his autobiography he

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talks about how when he was justified that all his

402
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sin just disappeared. And then he goes on and says

403
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that that, you know, the scripture proves that the there's

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abundant grace given to people, to believers, so that all

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their sins are moved. So he's confused and he's inconsistent

406
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as teaching. But he has this underlying principle that salvation

407
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is not about God, it's about man. It's about the

408
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work of man. That man does not have a nature

409
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that is depraved, that he's not dead in his sins

410
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and trespasses. So therefore you can talk anybody into going

411
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to heaven. And so based on that, he came up

412
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with a series of techniques.

413
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It was used during the Great Awakening.

414
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All right, So they're putting forth the idea that Finny

415
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seemed it to basically teach, once you become a Christian,

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all your sins disappear, and I guess basically you don't

417
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sin anymore. I'm sorry, Charles Finni has influenced more Christians,

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and you care to admit, because Christians talk that way

419
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all the time. So I'm not even surprised by that.

420
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He holds to a Pelagian idea a more Pelagian perspective.

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We've talked about the eighteen points of Pelagianism, which, yeah, basically,

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people are not fallen in Adam and their will is

423
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completely free, and so using the right techniques, you can

424
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get them to choose God, all right. So, and of course,

425
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if you're already holding to a Pelagian view of man,

426
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then it would not be that difficult once you become

427
00:26:09.759 --> 00:26:11.960
a Christian not to sin, because you don't even have

428
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a sin nature before you're saved. So according to the

429
00:26:15.000 --> 00:26:19.440
Pelagian perspective, you could be perfect even without salvation, so

430
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obviously then you could be perfect with salvation, all right.

431
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:27.079
So okay, all right, let's see they're kind of just

432
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throwing all these accusations out. I thought maybe they would

433
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start in a little bit like, well, you know, but

434
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:34.799
maybe they're just throwing these things out and then they're

435
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:36.759
going to back up and give a little background and

436
00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:38.960
try to let's see how they approach this.

437
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For the Second Great Awakening, that were to manipulate people

438
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into accepting Christ, and the results weren't very good, but

439
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:51.440
that's what he used. And from that then you see

440
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:55.160
the church is adopting those same techniques. But I think

441
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:57.160
one of the things that we forget is just where

442
00:26:57.160 --> 00:26:59.599
those techniques led to. And I think one of the

443
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things that we want to do on this podcast is go,

444
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:05.559
you know, those ideas and those doctrines they lead to

445
00:27:05.599 --> 00:27:09.279
some really bad places, and specifically they end up with

446
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you know, we look at the drag Queen's Story Hour, Well,

447
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that really does come from Finny's theology and from Oberlin

448
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College where he was the person who set up the

449
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theological department at Oberlin. And that's actually a logical following.

450
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So how does a theological seminary end up getting us

451
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into the state where the United States is right now?

452
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Now? I don't know if you can say Finny is

453
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responsible for drag Time story drag Time story Time. I

454
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I that Ooh, that's a wild accusation. That's a wild accusation.

455
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That's a wild accusation. Finny very much was about holiness.

456
00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:55.640
I don't know if that's fair in any way, shape

457
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or form. Now you could argue that once you start

458
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saying you can use these techniques, well then where do

459
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:03.880
the technique sup I think this goes back to a

460
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more of a discussion about the regulative versus the normative principle,

461
00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:09.960
How is the church going to operate under the regulative

462
00:28:10.039 --> 00:28:12.920
or normative principle? You can only do what is clearly,

463
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:16.559
clearly toll commanded. What is you have a clear example

464
00:28:16.599 --> 00:28:18.839
of is clear commanded. If you don't have that, you

465
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:21.039
can't bring it into the church. You can't use it,

466
00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:23.200
you can't do it. That's the regulative principle. What the

467
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:26.200
normative is like, I can do anything in the church.

468
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:30.440
I can bring any technique unless it is specifically prohibited

469
00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:34.599
in scripture. Those are wildly different philosophies. I don't think

470
00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:38.720
you go to Finny to blame him for that. Blame

471
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:42.680
him for the techniques he used. Don't blame him with

472
00:28:42.720 --> 00:28:45.920
what people may have done with those techniques. Right. You

473
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:49.440
may argue, well, these techniques led people to you. You look,

474
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:52.000
I just I just think how people may use a

475
00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:55.720
technique is different than blaming the technique. Right. It's like

476
00:28:56.039 --> 00:28:59.799
people may take a theology and do damaging things to

477
00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:03.240
the theology. That doesn't make the theology wrong, It makes

478
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:06.519
what people did with the theology wrong. Right, What people

479
00:29:06.599 --> 00:29:09.559
did with the techniques may have gone way beyond what

480
00:29:09.839 --> 00:29:12.880
Finny would have ever accepted. So I think that's that's

481
00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:18.680
pretty that's that's I don't know about that. Okay, let's see,

482
00:29:18.759 --> 00:29:20.079
let's see where they're gonna go here.

483
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:24.519
Well, something that that takes quite quite a bit of time,

484
00:29:25.400 --> 00:29:27.720
you know, because you know, Finny was back in the

485
00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:31.000
early you know, nineteenth century, so you know, two hundred

486
00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:36.279
years ago, and he before he gets into his perfectionism

487
00:29:36.359 --> 00:29:39.680
like you were mentioning, he was, he was a very

488
00:29:40.519 --> 00:29:44.960
staunch Arminian and you know, he at the time there was,

489
00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:47.079
you know, in the church at least that he was in,

490
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:49.079
there was a lot of Calvinism. So it was kind

491
00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:51.319
of either there are some Armenianism out there, but there

492
00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:55.440
was a lot of Calvinism or universalism that the huge

493
00:29:55.559 --> 00:29:58.880
Armenian movement hadn't really started yet. But he's he's kind

494
00:29:58.920 --> 00:30:00.480
of one of the one of the people, you know,

495
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:05.160
revitalizes Armenianism in America where he you know, he's a

496
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.839
Presbyterian when he gets you know, converted quote unquote converted,

497
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:16.279
and he and you know, the Presbyterians were doctrinally staunch Calvinists.

498
00:30:16.680 --> 00:30:18.759
But and so he ends up going through and becoming

499
00:30:18.799 --> 00:30:23.720
a Presbyterian minister, where he says he you know, affirms

500
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.880
the Westminster Confession, obviously a Calvinistic doctrine, believing the doctrines

501
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:30.200
of Grace, and then later he says, well, I never

502
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:32.200
read that. I had no idea this, that all that

503
00:30:32.240 --> 00:30:35.400
stuff is complete garbage. And so he's someone that you

504
00:30:35.400 --> 00:30:37.519
know now he's in he's a minister in a in

505
00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:43.079
a Calvinistic denomination, and he's a very staunch, aggressive Armenian really,

506
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:46.039
you know, coming after Calvinism in a way that other

507
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.079
groups hadn't before because the Methodists were Arminian, but they

508
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:52.160
were a bit more passive about it often. But he

509
00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:54.960
was someone who was out there who would write systematic theologies,

510
00:30:55.000 --> 00:30:57.279
who would go you know, head to head, you know,

511
00:30:57.400 --> 00:31:00.799
doctrinally to argue for a minion is right.

512
00:31:00.839 --> 00:31:03.480
And I think if you look in England, the Methodists

513
00:31:03.480 --> 00:31:08.720
were very fiercely Armenian. But in the United States they

514
00:31:08.920 --> 00:31:12.240
tried and basically they were defeated, and so they were

515
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:15.119
a lot more low key about it because it wasn't

516
00:31:15.160 --> 00:31:17.440
until after people like Finni that it really starts to

517
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:20.000
take off. Because the Methodists, like you said, they were Armenian,

518
00:31:20.240 --> 00:31:22.119
and it wasn't that they weren't trying to spread it.

519
00:31:22.119 --> 00:31:24.720
It's that the Baptists wouldn't accept it, the Presbyterians wouldn't

520
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:29.359
accept it, and all the major denominations wouldn't accept their Armenianism.

521
00:31:29.799 --> 00:31:31.759
And then you have FINNI come along saying.

522
00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:33.400
Look at these huge crowds I have, Look at how

523
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:35.680
the much success I have because all these people are

524
00:31:35.680 --> 00:31:38.880
following me. That then causes the churches to follow after

525
00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:40.599
him and say, hey, this doctrine works.

526
00:31:41.200 --> 00:31:44.599
I think calling him an Emenion is showing his grace.

527
00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:48.920
It was a full bloom leading or rejecting original sin

528
00:31:49.240 --> 00:31:51.240
and the imputed rits of Christ.

529
00:31:53.279 --> 00:31:57.960
That's fair, and I think it's fair to say that

530
00:31:58.759 --> 00:32:00.680
he was a full bloom Poleage. And I think that

531
00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:05.960
that's fair. Now here's the question. You may be a Pelagian,

532
00:32:06.519 --> 00:32:11.119
maybe a semi Pelagian, maybe an Armenian, maybe a Calvinist.

533
00:32:12.359 --> 00:32:15.640
Salvation is not depend on whether you're a Pelagian, semi Pelagian,

534
00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:18.880
Armenian or a Calvinist. Salvation is dependent on you putting

535
00:32:18.880 --> 00:32:22.119
your faith in Jesus Christ and you're trusting in his

536
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:26.079
finished work and his imputed righteousness. That's what salvation is.

537
00:32:26.119 --> 00:32:29.440
So I just want to there's no there's no need

538
00:32:29.480 --> 00:32:31.759
to just immediately throw the man in hell. There's a

539
00:32:31.960 --> 00:32:34.720
there's a need to say, here's what he taught, and

540
00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:39.000
we reject it out right because this doctrine is heretical.

541
00:32:40.079 --> 00:32:41.599
I think that. I think that's important, all right, But

542
00:32:41.680 --> 00:32:42.599
let's let's see where they go.

543
00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:45.799
I mean, if you go back to this on sent

544
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:47.720
out of door, I think they would have made a

545
00:32:47.759 --> 00:32:51.440
pretty strong, somewhat of a connection between Polaguionism and and

546
00:32:51.480 --> 00:32:54.119
full blown Arminianism. I mean, there was you know, there's

547
00:32:54.160 --> 00:32:57.319
a definite language I think there that connected those two together.

548
00:32:57.960 --> 00:32:59.680
So I mean, it's it's it's only.

549
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:03.799
We've only tried created semi Plagianism and call it Armenianism.

550
00:33:03.920 --> 00:33:05.920
But how much different is it really?

551
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:05.960
Is?

552
00:33:06.119 --> 00:33:07.839
Right, we've softened our language over time.

553
00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:09.359
I mean, this is this is one of this is

554
00:33:09.359 --> 00:33:10.400
part of the problems, right.

555
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:12.160
It's one of the real problems that have gone on

556
00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:13.839
because I mean you made some really bold claims in

557
00:33:13.880 --> 00:33:16.400
the beginning talking about over in college and talking about

558
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:20.359
how that Finny has had this influence that not only

559
00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.559
has it just not only has it affected like how

560
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:27.000
we do soul winning, but the theology that he's pushed

561
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.559
and the way that he pushed it, in the way

562
00:33:28.599 --> 00:33:30.880
it was thought of that when we look at the world,

563
00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:32.319
some of the things we like, when we look at

564
00:33:32.359 --> 00:33:33.759
and we lamit, how could we get to the point

565
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.119
where we would have drag queens reading to children in libraries?

566
00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:38.720
How could we get there?

567
00:33:38.759 --> 00:33:41.319
You're saying theology there.

568
00:33:41.200 --> 00:33:44.240
Is a causal connection, right that that theology matters.

569
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:51.640
And okay, I oh see drag queen, drag Queen story time.

570
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.559
I was calling it drag time story time. Okay, drag

571
00:33:54.640 --> 00:33:57.359
queen story time. I'm sorry, trying to trying to keep

572
00:33:57.400 --> 00:33:59.960
all of this straight because they're just making so many accusations,

573
00:34:00.079 --> 00:34:02.480
so many accusations, so it's hard to keep all of

574
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:04.920
this straight. So let me just stop right here. What's

575
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.960
the I don't think it's it's it's not fair to say, well,

576
00:34:07.960 --> 00:34:12.199
there's are Finney's theology led to drag Queen story time?

577
00:34:12.280 --> 00:34:20.480
That's just no. Look, Sonomon Gomour existed before Charles Finnie. Okay, Adam,

578
00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:24.159
I mean Adam's sons, you know, Cain and Abel. There

579
00:34:24.199 --> 00:34:26.960
was murder before there was Charles Finnie. Okay, we can

580
00:34:27.000 --> 00:34:29.760
go on. There was that's called that what leads to

581
00:34:29.920 --> 00:34:35.000
many of these actions. Is human depravity not theology, right,

582
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:40.199
It's human depravity operating and conflict in many cases with theology.

583
00:34:40.400 --> 00:34:44.039
Now you can argue, well, some theology may give ry.

584
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:49.280
I just know, I think human depravity manifests itself with

585
00:34:49.480 --> 00:34:52.840
or without theology. Now, some may take the a theiological

586
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:55.920
position to justify it. But I don't see a lot

587
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:58.440
of drag Queen storytime going I'm doing this because of

588
00:34:58.480 --> 00:35:02.280
the theology of Charles Finn. I don't. I'm not seeing

589
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:05.159
the correlation there. I'm not seeing the correlation. All right,

590
00:35:06.000 --> 00:35:10.320
I'm not seeing the correlation. Let's see if they clarify

591
00:35:10.400 --> 00:35:10.800
any of this.

592
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:15.639
And he understood that. I mean like when Joshua was saying,

593
00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:17.360
I mean he wasn't. There were a lot of people

594
00:35:17.360 --> 00:35:19.119
who would go out and all they really cared about

595
00:35:19.320 --> 00:35:22.440
was just maybe either preaching or technique. He said, I

596
00:35:22.559 --> 00:35:24.800
want to teach theology. I'm going to go out and

597
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:27.400
fight with anybody. I'm going to overpower them, I'm going

598
00:35:27.440 --> 00:35:29.159
to beat them. I'm going to show that this is right.

599
00:35:29.559 --> 00:35:31.840
He wanted to change people's minds about how they thought

600
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:33.719
about God, how they thought about sin, and how they

601
00:35:33.719 --> 00:35:34.559
thought about the world.

602
00:35:34.760 --> 00:35:39.159
An his title is the Father of American Revivalism, and

603
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:41.199
so you know, he might not be a household name,

604
00:35:41.400 --> 00:35:45.440
but in evangelical churches, he you know, he can draw

605
00:35:45.440 --> 00:35:47.239
a direct line to a lot of things that go

606
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:50.320
on every Sunday morning, to the things that he was pushing.

607
00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:51.800
You know, he didn't.

608
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.679
Now that I agree there's things going on in churches

609
00:35:56.280 --> 00:36:00.119
that can be directly tied back to Finny that I

610
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:04.599
can agree with. Drag Queen's story time. Come on, now

611
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:08.000
that that's a stretch. Okay, now I do I do it. Now,

612
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:10.880
I know what they're trying to say that, But I'm

613
00:36:10.920 --> 00:36:14.280
just saying, a manifestation of many things is just a

614
00:36:14.280 --> 00:36:18.039
result of man's depravity. It doesn't require, you know, putting

615
00:36:18.119 --> 00:36:19.559
all the blame on Finny.

616
00:36:21.480 --> 00:36:24.159
Didn't come up with all of it necessarily, but he was,

617
00:36:24.440 --> 00:36:26.320
you know, one of the you know, one of right,

618
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:30.039
the most famous preacher from the second grade Awakening, and

619
00:36:30.039 --> 00:36:32.440
and he's the one who popularized these things and said,

620
00:36:32.679 --> 00:36:35.559
you know, you can cause revivals. You just need to

621
00:36:35.639 --> 00:36:37.800
use the right techniques. You need to use, you know,

622
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:41.000
the right emotional appeals, the you know, the ultra call,

623
00:36:41.400 --> 00:36:43.360
you know, all these different things and then you can

624
00:36:43.639 --> 00:36:47.400
get people to be converted. Is not God's work, it

625
00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:49.239
is our work, and we can make it happen.

626
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:52.719
And people's schedule revivals, and that comes back from I mean,

627
00:36:52.760 --> 00:36:55.920
that's that's phineasm right, when you schedule a revival, when

628
00:36:55.960 --> 00:36:59.360
you're saying man can cause a revival to happen, that

629
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:04.239
is Finny. And how many churches schedule revivals, right, you see,

630
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:06.400
and that they were going to have a tent revival. Well,

631
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:09.280
you can't do a revival if it's the work of God.

632
00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:11.400
It has to be the work of man. And that's Finny.

633
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.199
And that was what Finny was teaching. And that's you know,

634
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:17.679
Billy Graham and all his revivals, all his crusades, they

635
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:20.559
all come back to Finny as the theology that was

636
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:22.960
driving this thing that has really polluted the church.

637
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:24.800
I mean, one of the things we really want to

638
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:27.159
tie together here is I mean, I grew up in

639
00:37:27.280 --> 00:37:30.280
churches where Finny was held up. I was I was

640
00:37:30.280 --> 00:37:32.920
told that Finny was a great man of God. The

641
00:37:33.000 --> 00:37:35.719
people that said that, I don't think they had actually

642
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:38.239
read I mean, like if they had read some of

643
00:37:38.280 --> 00:37:40.760
the quotes from Finny were going to read tonight. I

644
00:37:40.800 --> 00:37:45.239
think they would have been shocked, because what's happened is

645
00:37:45.239 --> 00:37:49.199
is a lot of the churches would reject many of

646
00:37:49.239 --> 00:37:54.239
the theological things that Finny said, but they've absolutely, like

647
00:37:54.280 --> 00:37:57.679
you said, they've absolutely adopted his practices. And there's this

648
00:37:57.760 --> 00:38:00.239
part of it where the church doesn't believe that theology

649
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:04.280
causes practice. That practice and theology cannot be separated. And

650
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:06.519
that's kind of your argument with Oberlin Colleges is that

651
00:38:06.760 --> 00:38:10.559
the theology, it flows into things, It makes real changes

652
00:38:10.599 --> 00:38:13.159
in the way you approach the world, and it over

653
00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:16.079
time that affects the culture.

654
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:19.840
And Finny was very adamant about that theology has to

655
00:38:19.880 --> 00:38:22.960
be practical, it has to be applied. It has to

656
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:26.880
be that you don't just say, okay, there is no

657
00:38:27.000 --> 00:38:29.559
total depravity. What that means is that you then have

658
00:38:29.599 --> 00:38:31.679
to go and try to talk everybody into heaven. Because

659
00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:35.760
anybody can be talked into heaven. It's it's your responsibility

660
00:38:35.840 --> 00:38:39.039
now to save their soul. Because right so he was

661
00:38:39.199 --> 00:38:42.679
very much on not just I mean, there are many

662
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:45.400
churches today where they may preach sound doctrine, but they

663
00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:48.719
don't go Therefore, you have to go do this, Finny

664
00:38:48.840 --> 00:38:49.840
was very adamant.

665
00:38:49.880 --> 00:38:51.719
Therefore you have to go do this over.

666
00:38:53.559 --> 00:38:57.119
And I think I do think it's very important that

667
00:38:57.400 --> 00:39:00.719
many of the people who promoted Finny or soted Finnie.

668
00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:03.280
And I saw this in many independent Fundamental Baptist churches

669
00:39:03.280 --> 00:39:06.639
because they did this frequently. They would promote like they

670
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:09.320
would promote one minute they're promoting Finny them, next minute

671
00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:12.480
they're promoting Charles Hadd't Spurgeon. And I'm like, whoa, you

672
00:39:12.559 --> 00:39:16.199
talk about contradictory theological perspectives. But they would act like

673
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:19.719
that Spurgeon was an independent Fundamental Baptist. And I'd be like,

674
00:39:20.000 --> 00:39:22.360
and they And I've told before how much trouble I

675
00:39:22.440 --> 00:39:25.199
got into. I got kicked out of the Bible Institute,

676
00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:27.599
and I had to you know, I've talked about how

677
00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:29.920
I got back in and all the ridiculousness of it.

678
00:39:30.199 --> 00:39:33.880
But I got in trouble for supposedly studying Calvinism. Well,

679
00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:37.360
I show up, you know, you know, in the back

680
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:41.000
and forth arguments with a stack of these little pamphlets

681
00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:45.800
right of spurgeon sermons. Right, there's these little pamphlets and

682
00:39:46.039 --> 00:39:50.119
I have them all marked, right, have these all of

683
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:53.599
them marked? And I come back and I'm like, you

684
00:39:53.760 --> 00:39:57.599
have been handing out these sermons every month at the

685
00:39:57.599 --> 00:39:59.039
front of the church. You put them there on the

686
00:39:59.079 --> 00:40:02.480
altar saying, okay, hey, here's this month spurgeon sermon. Everyone

687
00:40:02.519 --> 00:40:05.239
take it. I took every single one of them, read

688
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:07.639
every single one of them, marked all of them up.

689
00:40:07.880 --> 00:40:12.360
I've got thirteen here that one hundred percent promotes and

690
00:40:12.400 --> 00:40:15.400
teaches Calvinism. But I'm being kicked out of the Bible

691
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.519
Institute for possibly being a Calvinist. You're the one who's

692
00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:21.079
promoting it and teaching it, but none of you are

693
00:40:21.079 --> 00:40:23.760
reading them. It's all great to be handing out these things,

694
00:40:23.760 --> 00:40:26.920
but nobody's reading it. But I'm actually reading it. Well,

695
00:40:27.039 --> 00:40:29.320
same thing with Finny. You promoted Finny, I went and

696
00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:31.679
bought the books, and I come back going, what in

697
00:40:31.719 --> 00:40:35.320
the world are you doing? So so many Christians love

698
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:37.599
to say, oh, this is a great book, or read this,

699
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:40.639
or read and they've never actually even read it. And

700
00:40:40.679 --> 00:40:42.719
I think a lot of times with Finny, he's just

701
00:40:42.800 --> 00:40:46.039
promoted because well, Finny, Finny revival. We need a revival

702
00:40:46.159 --> 00:40:50.039
like Finny. And they've heard stories about it, they've heard antidotes.

703
00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:52.360
But You're like, have you ever read a systematic theology?

704
00:40:52.360 --> 00:40:55.880
Have you ever gotten into his actual and you're and

705
00:40:56.280 --> 00:40:59.400
never mind? And so that that is very frustrating.

706
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:03.880
People in College, which continues to this day as being

707
00:41:03.880 --> 00:41:07.719
one of the most influential universities on the left, I

708
00:41:07.719 --> 00:41:11.480
mean like enormously influential since Finny was there in eighteen

709
00:41:11.559 --> 00:41:12.320
thirty five.

710
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:14.400
So much so.

711
00:41:14.599 --> 00:41:17.280
And it comes back to this idea that what you believe,

712
00:41:17.400 --> 00:41:19.559
you must change the world with it, and that was

713
00:41:19.599 --> 00:41:21.639
definitely Finnish few and he pushed it very hard.

714
00:41:21.920 --> 00:41:24.400
And one of the things that Finny would also say

715
00:41:24.440 --> 00:41:27.400
is that revivals are in our mini and thing that

716
00:41:27.480 --> 00:41:30.000
cowness do not have revivals. And you know, a lot

717
00:41:30.000 --> 00:41:32.159
of this discussion, you know, is kind of coming off

718
00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:35.440
of a book that the church is reading our church,

719
00:41:35.719 --> 00:41:38.239
the one no, not the one true Church, but.

720
00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:42.320
Just so Oberlin College, he kind of puts it on

721
00:41:42.360 --> 00:41:45.559
the left. But let's be honest, even if you want

722
00:41:45.599 --> 00:41:47.960
to put them on the left and somehow accuse him,

723
00:41:48.280 --> 00:41:50.079
I don't, you know, I don't know what they are today.

724
00:41:50.679 --> 00:41:55.320
But Oberlin, you know, when he was advocating for abolitionism, right,

725
00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:58.360
for the for getting rid of slavery, when he was

726
00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:03.360
when he was arguing for admitting African American students and women.

727
00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:06.719
I mean, those are social things that I think was

728
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:10.000
a good thing. A Christian college saying, hey, we can't

729
00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:13.920
be discriminating people and we can't be supporting the slavery

730
00:42:13.960 --> 00:42:17.199
of human beings. Okay, that's I think that's a good thing.

731
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:19.880
They kind of somehow make it sound like a negative thing. No,

732
00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.199
a Christian university is saying, we're going to act on

733
00:42:22.320 --> 00:42:25.719
Christian principles. We're not going to support We're gonna be

734
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:29.639
We're gonna we're gonna support abolitionism and the ending of slavery,

735
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:33.000
and we're going to admit people who are our African

736
00:42:33.039 --> 00:42:36.039
Americans to learn theology, and we're going to let women

737
00:42:36.159 --> 00:42:40.400
take classes as well. Yeah, so he wants they want

738
00:42:40.400 --> 00:42:42.679
to say, well that college now is this big it's

739
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:45.239
a big, powerful college. On the left, Well, let's talk

740
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:47.880
about the positive things the college did do. I don't

741
00:42:47.920 --> 00:42:50.360
agree with everything Finny did or believe, but let's not

742
00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:52.440
you know, overlook some of these positives.

743
00:42:54.440 --> 00:42:57.679
Our local church, you know, which is Revival and Revivalism

744
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:00.760
by Ian Murray, and in this book he you know,

745
00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:03.119
starts at the first grade Awakening and then kind of

746
00:43:03.119 --> 00:43:05.679
goes through the end of the second grade Awakening and

747
00:43:05.880 --> 00:43:09.920
shows how, you know, how originally there were these true

748
00:43:09.960 --> 00:43:13.920
revivals that were based on you know, Calvinistic doctrine, and

749
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:17.400
then how these revivalistic techniques led by you know, Finny

750
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:20.199
and people like him come in and really changed the

751
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:22.760
church for the worst and give us, you know, the

752
00:43:22.920 --> 00:43:25.960
church that we have today. And you know, he really

753
00:43:26.199 --> 00:43:29.519
you know even you know kind of uh shows how

754
00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:32.679
Finny even like in his autobiography, how he's talking about

755
00:43:32.679 --> 00:43:34.880
how that you know, he was saved and you know

756
00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:36.840
all the you know, the precher that he was under

757
00:43:36.960 --> 00:43:39.079
was just a you know, someone who had no understanding

758
00:43:39.079 --> 00:43:41.800
of salvation and and then you know, completely switched and

759
00:43:41.840 --> 00:43:43.880
convert to you know, follow Finny. And he kind of

760
00:43:44.119 --> 00:43:46.679
shows how, you know, he's he's making stuff up that

761
00:43:47.039 --> 00:43:49.400
you know, the it appears at the beginning of the

762
00:43:49.440 --> 00:43:53.119
second grade Awakening was found that on Calvinism was founded

763
00:43:53.159 --> 00:43:56.199
on sound doctrine. But then it quickly gets out of

764
00:43:56.239 --> 00:44:00.440
hand fall you know, hull, foolish practices come in, false

765
00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:03.039
oction comes in, Finny comes in and takes it to

766
00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:05.679
the next level and ends up in a bad place

767
00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:09.039
where the people who were supposedly being converted that there

768
00:44:09.079 --> 00:44:10.920
was no change in their life. And in you know,

769
00:44:11.199 --> 00:44:13.559
a few years, it was evident that they weren't actually saved,

770
00:44:14.039 --> 00:44:15.320
and you know, and.

771
00:44:15.320 --> 00:44:15.679
It was.

772
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:22.519
See what they just did there. People supposedly got to

773
00:44:22.559 --> 00:44:24.320
say it, but there was no change in their life.

774
00:44:25.360 --> 00:44:29.039
They just equated salvation with change in life. You equate

775
00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:31.920
salvation not with change in life. You equate salvation with

776
00:44:32.000 --> 00:44:35.719
faith in Jesus Christ, who keeps the law for you.

777
00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:40.400
And you're saved by an imputed righteousness, not an infused righteousness.

778
00:44:40.480 --> 00:44:43.000
If I'm saved by an infused righteousness, I look for

779
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:46.000
a change of life. If I'm saved by an imputed righteousness,

780
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:48.000
I don't look to the change in my life. I

781
00:44:48.000 --> 00:44:53.079
look to the perfection and Christ's life. So they're going

782
00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:58.280
after Finny and they just well, what is that?

783
00:44:58.559 --> 00:45:04.440
Okay, it's even evident to Finny, right, even Phinny recanized

784
00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:07.039
that the people that allegedly were saved by him, but

785
00:45:07.079 --> 00:45:09.840
then being a full blown or many interor plagion, is

786
00:45:09.880 --> 00:45:12.840
that he would say, well, they lost their salvation because.

787
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:13.400
He saved them.

788
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:17.079
It was just that they then lost they destroyed their salvation.

789
00:45:17.800 --> 00:45:18.159
And so.

790
00:45:20.119 --> 00:45:22.119
You know, with that view, that also means that you

791
00:45:22.159 --> 00:45:25.199
can say whatever you did was pragmatic and worked, and

792
00:45:25.239 --> 00:45:27.519
then it was their fault that it felt that they

793
00:45:27.559 --> 00:45:29.920
fell away, and not your fault that they weren't really

794
00:45:29.960 --> 00:45:32.719
saved in the first place. And so his techniques never

795
00:45:32.760 --> 00:45:35.360
got challenged because he came up with an excuse as

796
00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:37.119
to why his techniques couldn't be challenged.

797
00:45:37.559 --> 00:45:39.079
I mean, one of the other things the book really

798
00:45:39.119 --> 00:45:41.000
lays out, I think really clearly is that there was

799
00:45:41.039 --> 00:45:45.559
a war within within Christianity over these issues that was

800
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:48.280
going on during that time period. I mean, Finny was

801
00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:50.840
actively going to war, like we've talked about, and one

802
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:52.719
of the things that was happening was people who had

803
00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:57.320
sound doctrine were basically going, well, we know Finny loves God.

804
00:45:58.159 --> 00:46:00.159
Even though Finny was out there preaching sermons like where

805
00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:02.800
he would say create make in yourself a new heart,

806
00:46:03.199 --> 00:46:05.880
create a new heart in yourself. He will quote where

807
00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:07.599
God says, I will put a new heart in you.

808
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:09.239
I want you to take your heart of stone and

809
00:46:09.239 --> 00:46:11.079
give you a heart of flesh. And then he would

810
00:46:11.079 --> 00:46:14.519
preach making yourself a new heart, and he was saying

811
00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:16.079
things like that, and Finny was going, how can two

812
00:46:16.119 --> 00:46:18.840
walk together unless they be agreed. He was attacking the

813
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:23.000
doctrinal issues, and they were really they were refusing to

814
00:46:23.079 --> 00:46:26.199
actually go to war over doctrine. They were refusing to

815
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:28.760
call him out and say to mark him as a

816
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:30.400
man that needs to be avoided, to mark him is

817
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:33.440
someone that was evil. And that continue, Like I said,

818
00:46:33.480 --> 00:46:35.719
that continues. I mean, if you go and look online,

819
00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:37.559
there are a lot of churches that will call Finny

820
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:40.440
out today. But the practice of the church, if you

821
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:43.000
look at it, we're still we're not really calling out

822
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:43.599
that practice.

823
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:45.320
And what happened is.

824
00:46:47.519 --> 00:46:50.400
Again they're making strong accusations. Here's what I would say.

825
00:46:50.920 --> 00:46:54.119
His theology, I got no problem saying his theology was evil,

826
00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:58.320
his theology was heretical, his theology was messed up. I'm

827
00:46:58.320 --> 00:47:00.559
not going to get into did he love God? Not

828
00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:02.800
love God? I'm not going to get did he believe

829
00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:05.239
in God? Not believe in God? Was he trusting in Christ?

830
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:08.079
Not trusting in Christ? Unless I've got a clear quote

831
00:47:08.119 --> 00:47:10.760
from him saying I do not trust in Christ for

832
00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:15.599
my salvation. I reject the sacrificial, the substitutionary atonement, of

833
00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:18.199
Jesus Christ for my sins. Now, if you've got something

834
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:20.280
like that, then okay. And by no means am I

835
00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:22.199
an expert on Vinnie. So I got no problem. If

836
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:24.360
you've got that and we can look at it, I

837
00:47:24.480 --> 00:47:29.280
just oh, we can condemn the theology, we can condemn

838
00:47:29.320 --> 00:47:34.519
the practice. Maybe a man who was very confused theologically.

839
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:37.880
But what's required for salvation is simply trusting in Christ

840
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:42.159
for your salvation, acknowledging you are a sinner and you

841
00:47:42.239 --> 00:47:47.079
need Christ salvation. That's what it's about.

842
00:47:48.840 --> 00:47:51.719
Its like in eighteen thirty five when he's you know,

843
00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:54.480
Oberlin College is trying to recruit him and Hudson College

844
00:47:54.519 --> 00:47:56.280
is trying to recruit him both to be the head

845
00:47:56.280 --> 00:47:59.679
of their theology department. But Hudson College is saying, this

846
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:02.679
is a man of God, and so when we confront

847
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:07.480
him with the truth of soteriology, he will repent and

848
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:09.320
he will start to preach the truth.

849
00:48:09.480 --> 00:48:10.800
So we want to recruit him.

850
00:48:11.440 --> 00:48:13.679
Really stupid when you think about it, but this is

851
00:48:13.679 --> 00:48:14.960
what Hudson College.

852
00:48:14.639 --> 00:48:15.199
Was trying to do.

853
00:48:15.559 --> 00:48:18.320
Will recruit him to be the head of the ar

854
00:48:18.400 --> 00:48:21.119
theology department, and then we'll change his theology so that

855
00:48:21.119 --> 00:48:25.800
it's the correct biblical theology. And Oberlin College is already

856
00:48:25.840 --> 00:48:28.400
the founder of it, already believed in in you know,

857
00:48:30.119 --> 00:48:32.800
what is an entire sanctification is the term that they

858
00:48:32.920 --> 00:48:34.400
use for sinless perfectionism.

859
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:36.920
That he already believed in entire sanctification.

860
00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.719
So he's trying to recruit Finny to overland in Hudson.

861
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:43.559
He didn't want to change him at all, and Hudson's

862
00:48:43.559 --> 00:48:46.360
trying to go, look, if we got him in here,

863
00:48:46.400 --> 00:48:48.280
we know he's a man of God, so we can

864
00:48:48.360 --> 00:48:50.239
change him instead of going a.

865
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:51.079
Wolf's a wolf.

866
00:48:52.039 --> 00:48:55.239
But they couldn't see the doctrine actually makes people wolves.

867
00:48:55.320 --> 00:48:57.880
If you reject the nature of God, if you reject

868
00:48:57.880 --> 00:49:00.719
the nature of man, you are a wolf if you're

869
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:03.400
trying to lead churches, so why would you invite a

870
00:49:03.480 --> 00:49:05.320
wolf in to teach at seminary?

871
00:49:06.079 --> 00:49:09.760
And they were being forced or forcing themselves to accept

872
00:49:09.840 --> 00:49:13.000
him because the way that it had been set up

873
00:49:13.079 --> 00:49:16.719
is either you are with Finni and for revivals, or

874
00:49:16.800 --> 00:49:19.320
you're against Finny and against revivals because look at the

875
00:49:19.320 --> 00:49:22.320
great results Phinny's getting. Look at how you know people

876
00:49:22.320 --> 00:49:25.320
are having these dramatic reactions when Phinny's preaching look at

877
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:28.239
all the professions of faith he has. Do you not

878
00:49:28.360 --> 00:49:29.360
like professions of faith?

879
00:49:29.800 --> 00:49:30.360
You know, if you.

880
00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:32.360
Don't like Finny, you don't like you don't like salvation.

881
00:49:32.559 --> 00:49:36.159
And so that's how Phinny with intentionally portraying it, and

882
00:49:36.480 --> 00:49:38.920
in the people are having trouble, you know, you know,

883
00:49:39.039 --> 00:49:41.320
drawing lines in this then and saying saying no, just

884
00:49:41.360 --> 00:49:44.119
because you look you look good when you look at it,

885
00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:46.960
you know from a certain angle, just because you look

886
00:49:47.000 --> 00:49:48.280
good doesn't mean that you are good.

887
00:49:48.599 --> 00:49:51.239
And it goes back to what happens at churches today,

888
00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:54.480
which is the same Finny theology, which is, it doesn't

889
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:58.000
matter what Christ you profess, as long as you profess

890
00:49:58.119 --> 00:50:01.280
somebody who you call Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if

891
00:50:01.320 --> 00:50:04.519
he's an idol, as long as his name is Jesus Christ.

892
00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:08.000
It doesn't matter if he's the god of scripture. As

893
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:10.000
long as you name the name of.

894
00:50:10.039 --> 00:50:11.639
Jesus Christ, you will be saved.

895
00:50:12.199 --> 00:50:15.320
And so they make Jesus into an idol like Finny did.

896
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:18.719
And the response wasn't of the church? Now these people

897
00:50:18.800 --> 00:50:21.880
should really think, I mean, not that God can't save them.

898
00:50:21.920 --> 00:50:23.800
God can do what ever he wants, but these people

899
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:27.760
that are responding to Phinny should think they're responding to

900
00:50:27.800 --> 00:50:29.320
a man, not the Holy Spirit.

901
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:34.440
And then you know, with Finny we have the benefit,

902
00:50:35.760 --> 00:50:37.440
you know, of being able to look at where he

903
00:50:37.559 --> 00:50:40.639
ends up, which is in the Christian perfection, the saying

904
00:50:41.079 --> 00:50:47.159
basically that a full, complete, perfect obedience is possible in

905
00:50:47.199 --> 00:50:49.960
this life and even required in this life.

906
00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:54.320
And so here's a quote. Now they're getting ready to

907
00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:56.079
make a quote. I was going to look up some

908
00:50:56.159 --> 00:51:04.239
things here. Charles Finny's beliefs about God, Jesus, and salvation

909
00:51:04.360 --> 00:51:07.400
were controversial and diverged in several key areas from what

910
00:51:07.480 --> 00:51:11.199
is traditionally considered orthodox Christianity. Right, So here's some things.

911
00:51:11.679 --> 00:51:14.360
When it comes to Finney's view on God. In Jesus,

912
00:51:14.360 --> 00:51:19.119
Finny accepted the traditional Christian view of God as triune being, Father, Son,

913
00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:21.800
and Holy Spirit. He believed in the divinity of Jesus

914
00:51:21.880 --> 00:51:26.039
Christ and the necessity of christ atonement for sin. However,

915
00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:30.480
his understanding on how salvation was applied differed significantly from

916
00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:32.880
traditional views. So let's just make sure we understand that

917
00:51:33.000 --> 00:51:35.760
he believed in the triune God, he believed in the

918
00:51:35.760 --> 00:51:38.519
divinity of Christ, and he believed in the necessity of

919
00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:45.880
Christ's atonement for sin. Now we may disagree with everything

920
00:51:45.920 --> 00:51:49.000
after that, but I see where you got to be

921
00:51:49.000 --> 00:51:51.800
careful about throwing the man into hell. Now his views

922
00:51:51.800 --> 00:51:54.960
of salvation. He believed in human responsibility and free will,

923
00:51:55.480 --> 00:52:01.760
he believed in moral government, rejected original sin, and he

924
00:52:01.800 --> 00:52:06.480
believed in perfectionism. All right, so those things I completely

925
00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:09.079
disagree with almost everything he believes after that. But if

926
00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:11.800
he believes in the Trinity, he believes in the deity,

927
00:52:12.039 --> 00:52:15.199
and he believes in the necessary of christ atonement for sin,

928
00:52:17.039 --> 00:52:20.800
I mean, I'm saying everything else may be a complete

929
00:52:20.920 --> 00:52:26.480
train wreck, But I mean, does that not is salvation

930
00:52:26.599 --> 00:52:28.800
based off what Jesus did? Or is it based off

931
00:52:28.840 --> 00:52:32.000
what we believe about certain philological issues?

932
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:38.280
Quote from Finny's ratings where he talks about that this

933
00:52:38.480 --> 00:52:41.239
was just the revelation that I needed. I felt myself

934
00:52:41.400 --> 00:52:44.519
justified by faith, and so far as I could see,

935
00:52:44.679 --> 00:52:46.880
I was in the state in which I did not sin,

936
00:52:47.480 --> 00:52:50.400
instead of feeling that I was sinning all the time.

937
00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:53.000
My heart was so full of love that it overflowed.

938
00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:56.239
My cup ran over with blessing them with love, and

939
00:52:56.280 --> 00:52:58.760
I could not feel that I was sinning against God,

940
00:52:59.239 --> 00:53:01.519
nor could I cover the least sense of guilt for

941
00:53:01.639 --> 00:53:05.239
my past sins this experience, I said nothing that I

942
00:53:05.239 --> 00:53:08.280
could recollect at the time to anybody that is of

943
00:53:08.360 --> 00:53:11.880
this experience of justification. He's talking about, you know, his

944
00:53:12.000 --> 00:53:16.519
conversion experience, and he's saying that, you know, he has

945
00:53:16.559 --> 00:53:18.960
this feeling that he's moved to this state where he

946
00:53:19.480 --> 00:53:21.400
no longer where he's not sinning anymore.

947
00:53:23.199 --> 00:53:25.840
And let me make it very clear, his perfectionism is

948
00:53:25.880 --> 00:53:28.480
completely heretical. But I want to make it very clear.

949
00:53:29.000 --> 00:53:33.440
I've heard Christians of all philological backgrounds basically make it

950
00:53:33.480 --> 00:53:35.320
sound like when you become a Christian, now you can

951
00:53:35.320 --> 00:53:37.280
say yes to God, you can say no to sin.

952
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:42.679
And they may not teach perfectionism, but they sure at

953
00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:46.320
least imply it that you can almost become that. So

954
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:49.119
if you're going to condemn Fenny for that, we need

955
00:53:49.159 --> 00:53:52.159
to condemn a good portion of evangelicalism Christianity, even within

956
00:53:52.199 --> 00:53:53.360
any reform circles.

957
00:53:55.480 --> 00:53:57.400
And the big problem with Finny right is he is

958
00:53:57.440 --> 00:53:58.039
a liar.

959
00:53:58.719 --> 00:53:59.840
He lies all.

960
00:53:59.719 --> 00:54:03.280
The time, and so there were years where he was

961
00:54:03.320 --> 00:54:06.760
saying he sinned after he was saved, and then later

962
00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:09.840
he rewrites his history and says, no Ah, my sin

963
00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:13.440
disappeared when I was justified. So he changed his life

964
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:18.840
story to fix what he has now adopted as his doctrine,

965
00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:20.880
like he teaches in his systematic theology.

966
00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:23.039
If you read that first quote, somebody might go, well,

967
00:54:23.039 --> 00:54:26.639
he's just describing an experience. But here in a systematic theology,

968
00:54:26.679 --> 00:54:30.599
he's actually going to talk about justification in a theological manner.

969
00:54:31.519 --> 00:54:35.719
Full present obedience is a condition of justification. But again

970
00:54:35.800 --> 00:54:39.320
to the question, can man be justified while sin remains

971
00:54:39.360 --> 00:54:44.199
in him? Surely he cannot, either upon legal or Gospel principles,

972
00:54:44.599 --> 00:54:48.199
unless the law be repealed. But can he be pardoned

973
00:54:48.239 --> 00:54:52.079
and accepted and justified in the Gospel sense while sin,

974
00:54:52.679 --> 00:54:56.920
any degree of sin remains in him. Certainly not. And

975
00:54:56.960 --> 00:54:59.840
so Finny is saying there very clearly, if I believe,

976
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:03.320
if I believe that I've been justified, anytime that I

977
00:55:03.360 --> 00:55:06.480
say I've been justified, there can be no sin in

978
00:55:06.519 --> 00:55:07.000
me at all.

979
00:55:09.000 --> 00:55:11.719
Now I believe that's completely heretical. But see that to

980
00:55:11.760 --> 00:55:16.119
me is not that far removed from lordship salvation. Well,

981
00:55:16.159 --> 00:55:18.679
if you were saved, you were gonna do this, this, this,

982
00:55:18.719 --> 00:55:20.199
and this and this, and if you don't do this,

983
00:55:20.239 --> 00:55:22.360
then you were never saved. And now it may not

984
00:55:22.440 --> 00:55:26.360
be as extreme as they'll be literally no sin, but

985
00:55:26.480 --> 00:55:28.360
it's almost like, well, you're gonna do this, and you're

986
00:55:28.360 --> 00:55:29.679
gonna do this, and if you don't do this, then

987
00:55:29.719 --> 00:55:32.519
you're not saved. And even they made a reference, well,

988
00:55:32.599 --> 00:55:34.280
some of these people who made a profession of faith,

989
00:55:34.320 --> 00:55:36.760
well their lives were never changed, so they were not saved.

990
00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:40.280
So even you were acknowledging salvation requires a certain level

991
00:55:40.320 --> 00:55:42.840
of change or you're not saved. I believe both sides

992
00:55:42.880 --> 00:55:46.280
are wrong. Salvation is about the perfection of Christ, not

993
00:55:46.519 --> 00:55:51.480
any change sin, lack of sin, level of sin. In me,

994
00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:57.719
it's all in the perfection in Christ. Now, look what

995
00:55:57.920 --> 00:56:00.960
Finny is saying there, I I believe is completely heretical

996
00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:04.880
and it borderlines destroying the Gospel. I got no problem

997
00:56:04.920 --> 00:56:07.519
coming close to saying that he believes you're saved by works.

998
00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:10.719
I got no problem saying that that's very close. So

999
00:56:10.880 --> 00:56:14.920
I got no problem calling into question that, Hey, this

1000
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:19.440
theology is very very close to absolute damitable heresy. I

1001
00:56:19.480 --> 00:56:21.760
got no problem saying that. But I just see that

1002
00:56:21.800 --> 00:56:24.800
there's a lot of similarity to it. And how you

1003
00:56:24.840 --> 00:56:27.960
find in other circles that these guys would say is okay,

1004
00:56:28.360 --> 00:56:33.639
I think it's prevalent everywhere. So all right, let's continue,

1005
00:56:33.719 --> 00:56:36.119
We'll wrap this. We're going to wrap up our review part.

1006
00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:38.000
Remember the goal here was not for me to do

1007
00:56:38.079 --> 00:56:39.599
much of a review. The goal is for me for

1008
00:56:39.639 --> 00:56:41.239
you to get you to go listen to this. But

1009
00:56:41.320 --> 00:56:42.440
I'm just getting you started.

1010
00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:48.159
There can be no sin whatsoever, and I mean, he

1011
00:56:48.199 --> 00:56:50.960
says later, he says, if a Christian sins, then he

1012
00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:53.639
in that period of time is no different than an

1013
00:56:53.719 --> 00:56:57.000
unsaved man under the law, under the condemnation of the law,

1014
00:56:57.079 --> 00:56:59.000
under what is going on, he would be identical to

1015
00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:02.119
an unsaved man. And so if Finny holds that he

1016
00:57:02.239 --> 00:57:06.039
has been justified and has maintained being justified for any

1017
00:57:06.079 --> 00:57:09.480
period of time, it is by being without sin. Because

1018
00:57:09.599 --> 00:57:13.000
he's very clear, it is impossible to be justified and

1019
00:57:13.039 --> 00:57:14.119
have sin present in you.

1020
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:17.599
Because there's there's different flavors of sinless perfectionism. There's people

1021
00:57:17.599 --> 00:57:21.239
who say, well, you know it is possible, you know.

1022
00:57:21.440 --> 00:57:23.199
So there was a lady when I was growing up,

1023
00:57:23.199 --> 00:57:25.880
we would go to a nursing home to a Bible study,

1024
00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:29.079
and the lady every single time for like years, or

1025
00:57:29.119 --> 00:57:31.000
ask the question is it possible.

1026
00:57:30.559 --> 00:57:32.360
To live in?

1027
00:57:33.840 --> 00:57:35.840
Is it possible to live in this life and not sin?

1028
00:57:35.960 --> 00:57:39.480
So so she's saying is perfection possible? Not that you

1029
00:57:39.559 --> 00:57:41.760
have to have it, but is it possible when the

1030
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:44.199
answer is no, if you're wondering. But that's that's one

1031
00:57:44.199 --> 00:57:47.280
type of sinless perfectionism, that is it possible to be perfect?

1032
00:57:47.280 --> 00:57:49.360
And then there's other ones that say you know you

1033
00:57:49.559 --> 00:57:52.599
have it's expected of you, or that to be a

1034
00:57:52.679 --> 00:57:54.840
Christian you have to be perfect, and that if you're

1035
00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:57.079
not perfect, you're not a Christian. Then you also have

1036
00:57:57.079 --> 00:58:00.480
the question of well, when someone does sin, are able

1037
00:58:00.519 --> 00:58:02.559
to be saved again or is it a permanent thing?

1038
00:58:02.599 --> 00:58:05.199
You have to be permanently perfect from salvation and then

1039
00:58:05.239 --> 00:58:07.480
you can get like I mean, obviously no one's perfect,

1040
00:58:07.519 --> 00:58:09.960
So how do you get to perfection? Some people get

1041
00:58:10.000 --> 00:58:12.920
to perfection by saying you throw out the law. But

1042
00:58:13.079 --> 00:58:16.599
Finny actually was against Antiinomianism at least how he defined it.

1043
00:58:16.639 --> 00:58:18.920
He believed in God's law and said you have to

1044
00:58:19.000 --> 00:58:21.920
keep God's law to be perfect, and he said you

1045
00:58:22.000 --> 00:58:25.639
can if you sin, there is a you can repent

1046
00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:29.519
and then be saved and go to heaven. But you do,

1047
00:58:29.639 --> 00:58:31.599
you know, you have to get back to that perfect state,

1048
00:58:32.079 --> 00:58:32.679
and it's.

1049
00:58:32.519 --> 00:58:34.679
Your work that cleanses you from that sin because you

1050
00:58:34.760 --> 00:58:35.360
must repent.

1051
00:58:35.719 --> 00:58:38.920
But he still does have to redefine the law to say, like, well,

1052
00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:42.480
you can't commit adulterree, but you know the whole thing

1053
00:58:42.519 --> 00:58:46.039
about having sinful desires, about having lust and that that

1054
00:58:46.159 --> 00:58:48.639
being sin and that being adult rate, Well that doesn't

1055
00:58:48.679 --> 00:58:50.079
work to say you're perfect.

1056
00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:51.639
To be sinned for any to be sin free for

1057
00:58:51.679 --> 00:58:54.400
any period of time, even if if you say the

1058
00:58:54.480 --> 00:58:58.119
law still exists. You have to diminish the law. There's

1059
00:58:58.159 --> 00:59:00.360
no you know, or just be it just a major hitt.

1060
00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:01.960
But you have to be both.

1061
00:59:02.639 --> 00:59:06.280
But and some sometimes you just have to be really blind, right,

1062
00:59:06.320 --> 00:59:09.360
because Finny is rewriting his life story and he does

1063
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:11.360
that in his autobiography a lot, and he does that

1064
00:59:11.400 --> 00:59:15.039
throughout his life, and as his theology changes, he rewrites

1065
00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:18.400
what happened to him before. And yeah, he kind of

1066
00:59:18.440 --> 00:59:18.920
explains it.

1067
00:59:19.000 --> 00:59:21.000
Yeah, I didn't say anything to anybody.

1068
00:59:20.599 --> 00:59:23.400
But he said the opposite to people, So that meant

1069
00:59:23.440 --> 00:59:26.880
that he lied then, which means that he wasn't saved.

1070
00:59:26.880 --> 00:59:30.039
According to his own definition. And so he's in this

1071
00:59:30.119 --> 00:59:34.480
situation where he's proven to not be a believer because

1072
00:59:34.519 --> 00:59:36.559
he believes false doctrine and then he lies about the

1073
00:59:36.559 --> 00:59:39.559
doctrine that he believes, or he's so blinded by his

1074
00:59:39.639 --> 00:59:40.960
sin that he's lying about it.

1075
00:59:41.559 --> 00:59:43.239
But either way, he.

1076
00:59:45.119 --> 00:59:47.760
See what they just did. He's proven not to be

1077
00:59:47.800 --> 00:59:52.440
a believer because of his actions. Oh so he has

1078
00:59:52.480 --> 00:59:54.719
to be perfect in order to be a believer. Isn't

1079
00:59:54.760 --> 00:59:59.039
that what you're condemning Finny for believing. You're pointing out

1080
00:59:59.199 --> 01:00:03.639
that he he was involved in lying, deceit, he believed

1081
01:00:03.679 --> 01:00:05.920
in false things. I got no problem saying all of

1082
01:00:05.960 --> 01:00:09.800
that is true. But his being a believer is believing

1083
01:00:09.800 --> 01:00:12.840
in the perfection of Christ. Because you are a sinner.

1084
01:00:13.119 --> 01:00:15.960
You're saying, no, no, no, no, it's it's not about

1085
01:00:15.960 --> 01:00:18.360
being perfect being to be a believer. But then you're

1086
01:00:18.400 --> 01:00:21.519
condemning him for his lack of perfection and therefore saying

1087
01:00:21.519 --> 01:00:23.840
he's not a believer. So is it based on what

1088
01:00:23.880 --> 01:00:25.719
we do or is it not based on what we do?

1089
01:00:27.880 --> 01:00:31.440
You're literally kind of setting up the exact same system. Well,

1090
01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:33.639
you can't do this. You can't do this because if

1091
01:00:33.639 --> 01:00:37.199
you do this, you're not a believer. Well, the only

1092
01:00:37.239 --> 01:00:39.039
difference is you just say you have to reach a

1093
01:00:39.079 --> 01:00:42.440
certain level of goodness to be a believer. You're just

1094
01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:44.599
not going as far as Finny was saying you have

1095
01:00:44.639 --> 01:00:46.440
to get to perfection. You're like, well, we can't get

1096
01:00:46.440 --> 01:00:49.360
to perfection, but we have to get to a certain level,

1097
01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:52.239
or we're not a believer. I'm saying both systems are fraudulent.

1098
01:00:52.400 --> 01:00:54.679
You're a believer based on the finished work of Jesus Christ.

1099
01:00:54.880 --> 01:01:01.880
Nothing to do with what you do or don't do.

1100
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:01.760
Is not believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

1101
01:01:01.760 --> 01:01:05.239
He's not believing in the God who sent his son

1102
01:01:05.480 --> 01:01:07.119
so that the Father would be exalted.

1103
01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:12.880
Again, that's a major claim that he doesn't believe in

1104
01:01:12.920 --> 01:01:16.360
the God of the Bible. I don't know. He may

1105
01:01:16.400 --> 01:01:21.119
have some wrong ideas, but from my understanding, he believed

1106
01:01:21.119 --> 01:01:22.920
in the Trinity, believed in the deity of Christ, and

1107
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:28.199
believed in the atonement being necessary. The atonement provided by

1108
01:01:28.280 --> 01:01:32.000
Jesus was necessary for our salvation. So I don't know.

1109
01:01:32.079 --> 01:01:34.440
You can go listen to the rest. The whole goal here,

1110
01:01:34.559 --> 01:01:36.519
I know already went an hour. The goal was just

1111
01:01:36.559 --> 01:01:39.239
to say go listen to this. It's called how the

1112
01:01:39.239 --> 01:01:45.039
Heresy of Charles Finny shaped America, How the Heresy of

1113
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:48.920
Charles Finny shaped America from Reformation Baptist Church and only

1114
01:01:49.000 --> 01:01:52.159
has ten downloads. I don't know why it only has ten.

1115
01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:55.079
Those numbers are wrong, those have to be wrong. Go

1116
01:01:55.199 --> 01:01:58.880
listen to it, go download it, follow them, and give

1117
01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:03.199
them your full attention, because whether I agree or disagree,

1118
01:02:03.320 --> 01:02:06.280
it's I'm so happy to see someone dealing with such

1119
01:02:06.320 --> 01:02:09.480
an important subject. And I do apologize when I was describing.

1120
01:02:09.639 --> 01:02:11.599
Let me go back to what I was going to

1121
01:02:11.679 --> 01:02:15.079
originally read because I misread it. I corrected it, but

1122
01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:17.639
I still was. It bothered me the whole time that

1123
01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:20.719
I stumbled over it. Let me see where I found it.

1124
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:25.400
Where is it? Hang on if I can, If I

1125
01:02:25.480 --> 01:02:27.599
can find it, let me go go all the way

1126
01:02:27.599 --> 01:02:30.800
back here to the top, because I had pulled some

1127
01:02:30.960 --> 01:02:35.559
notes on Finny. Oh here it is beyond spiritual revival.

1128
01:02:35.559 --> 01:02:38.519
Phinny was also deeply involved in social issues. He was

1129
01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:42.840
an advocate for abolitionism. There we go, so I wanted to.

1130
01:02:43.280 --> 01:02:45.400
I was going to say it incorrectly. The main reason

1131
01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:47.400
I stopped myself was now because I knew I was

1132
01:02:47.440 --> 01:02:49.159
getting ready to say it incorrectly. I was going to

1133
01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:52.239
say a bowlinish abolitionism. I was going to say abolish,

1134
01:02:52.440 --> 01:02:56.119
but abolitionism. The reason I stopped myself was immediately I

1135
01:02:56.159 --> 01:02:57.760
was like, well, wait a minute, Wait a minute, wait

1136
01:02:57.800 --> 01:03:00.639
a minute, is that okay? Did he advocate for that?

1137
01:03:00.760 --> 01:03:02.199
So then I had to look up. I had to

1138
01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:08.519
check check another source. Yes, he definitely supported abolitionism. Let

1139
01:03:08.519 --> 01:03:12.519
me go back and find the rest of this quote. Abolitionism, temperance,

1140
01:03:12.719 --> 01:03:15.599
and other social reforms, believing that true revival would lead

1141
01:03:15.639 --> 01:03:18.880
to moral and social change. So I do apologize for

1142
01:03:18.920 --> 01:03:23.079
some reason, I got to abolitionism, and my I was.

1143
01:03:23.159 --> 01:03:26.639
I was first going, wait a minute, did Finny support abolitionism?

1144
01:03:26.760 --> 01:03:29.079
So there was my first thought. The second thought was

1145
01:03:29.239 --> 01:03:31.559
am I saying the word correct or not correct? So

1146
01:03:31.880 --> 01:03:33.440
because I thought I was going to be like, well,

1147
01:03:33.440 --> 01:03:38.440
wait a minute, abolitionism, wait what? And so then I

1148
01:03:38.840 --> 01:03:42.360
had to correct myself in real time. So I apologize

1149
01:03:42.360 --> 01:03:44.960
for that. I know how to say the word abolitionism, okay,

1150
01:03:45.000 --> 01:03:47.079
but I was I was just like, wait a minute,

1151
01:03:47.079 --> 01:03:50.599
did Finny, are we sure about that? I know the

1152
01:03:50.639 --> 01:03:53.440
temperance thing. I know that I know many social reforms.

1153
01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:56.079
I know that, okay, and then then I had to

1154
01:03:56.079 --> 01:03:59.320
realize Okay, Oberlin College, Okay, wait, they did first college,

1155
01:03:59.320 --> 01:04:02.559
one of the first call just to admit African American students. Okay, okay,

1156
01:04:02.599 --> 01:04:04.760
all right, so then it all started making sense. But

1157
01:04:04.840 --> 01:04:07.880
I was in real time, and I apologize for that.

1158
01:04:07.920 --> 01:04:10.119
I always like to correct my mistakes when I can,

1159
01:04:10.559 --> 01:04:13.599
and when I don't, well, I apologize, but I want

1160
01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:15.800
main thing is the goal here wasn't for me to

1161
01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:19.159
give you even that overview on Finny. My goal here

1162
01:04:19.320 --> 01:04:21.800
was to get you go listen to how the heresy

1163
01:04:21.880 --> 01:04:29.039
of Charles Finny shaped America, and it is Reformation Baptist church.

1164
01:04:29.760 --> 01:04:31.519
I'm going to hit play on this on here, I'm

1165
01:04:31.519 --> 01:04:35.320
going to see here and then hit play.

1166
01:04:35.599 --> 01:04:37.840
Choles Finny is in hell, so why do so many

1167
01:04:37.920 --> 01:04:40.559
churches continue to use his techniques?

1168
01:04:43.639 --> 01:04:46.440
Okay? Yeah, the numbers aren't working. I was like, nobody

1169
01:04:46.840 --> 01:04:49.440
since this has went and downloaded it. Okay, their numbers

1170
01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:52.920
aren't working, so maybe ten something is wrong with that.

1171
01:04:53.000 --> 01:04:55.079
But let's get that number up to well over one hundred.

1172
01:04:55.639 --> 01:04:59.159
Because I'm just grateful that those guys got together turn

1173
01:04:59.239 --> 01:05:02.559
on a microphone and covering a very important individual in

1174
01:05:02.639 --> 01:05:06.360
church history, which utterly has shaped how Probably there's a

1175
01:05:06.360 --> 01:05:09.639
lot of things your church is doing that comes from Finny.

1176
01:05:10.800 --> 01:05:13.679
There may be things you believe that come from FINNI.

1177
01:05:14.039 --> 01:05:17.800
So I'm not willing to necessarily throw him into hell,

1178
01:05:18.360 --> 01:05:21.440
because that's not my place. God is the judge. I'm not.

1179
01:05:22.320 --> 01:05:27.400
What can I judge his theology? What can I judge

1180
01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:31.400
his techniques, and I can throw them out. What I

1181
01:05:31.480 --> 01:05:35.960
can't do is necessarily throw him out of out of

1182
01:05:36.000 --> 01:05:38.440
the Kingdom of God. What I can do is says

1183
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:40.639
I got no problem even referring to him as a

1184
01:05:40.679 --> 01:05:43.000
heretical or as a heretic in some of his theology.

1185
01:05:43.360 --> 01:05:45.679
But from what we can tell, he seemed to believe

1186
01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:49.000
in the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and the necessary,

1187
01:05:49.360 --> 01:05:52.599
the necessity of the atonement of Jesus Christ for our sins.

1188
01:05:52.920 --> 01:05:56.920
So that sounds pretty straightforward. Everything after that is a

1189
01:05:56.960 --> 01:05:59.920
total and complete train wreck. It may even be contradictory

1190
01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:04.480
to those beliefs. But I mean, I have problems with

1191
01:06:04.519 --> 01:06:07.920
people's theology all over the place. So even even these guys,

1192
01:06:07.960 --> 01:06:10.119
I was like, well, wait a minute, you're saying, well,

1193
01:06:10.159 --> 01:06:12.239
these people weren't saved, and these people weren't saved because

1194
01:06:12.280 --> 01:06:14.599
their lives weren't changed. So you're kind of requiring a

1195
01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:17.280
level of perfection in them in order to prove to

1196
01:06:17.280 --> 01:06:19.519
be safe. So I feel like you're doing in some

1197
01:06:19.559 --> 01:06:23.920
ways just it's a Finny light. You're just not going

1198
01:06:23.960 --> 01:06:26.320
as far as Finny went. And I think both sides

1199
01:06:26.320 --> 01:06:28.559
are wrong. Salvation is not dependent on what I do

1200
01:06:28.639 --> 01:06:32.360
or don't do. It's dependent on what Christ did the end.

1201
01:06:32.679 --> 01:06:36.880
All right, So we'll stop right there. Thanks for listening. Everyone,

1202
01:06:36.880 --> 01:06:38.719
have a great evening. Hey, go listen to it. How

1203
01:06:38.760 --> 01:06:42.000
the heresy of Charles Finny shaped America. Go listen to it,

1204
01:06:42.239 --> 01:06:44.400
Share it with your friends and family, have a good

1205
01:06:44.400 --> 01:06:49.000
conversation about it. Give them a thousand downloads, follow them,

1206
01:06:49.320 --> 01:06:52.199
listen to everything else they did, because I want to

1207
01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:56.800
support other ministries as well, and I'm just grateful. I mean,

1208
01:06:56.880 --> 01:06:59.239
we obviously, you know, we could have a good back

1209
01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:02.159
and forth. We may not agree, we probably would agree

1210
01:07:02.199 --> 01:07:05.360
on a lot because I'm definitely much more. I mean,

1211
01:07:05.559 --> 01:07:11.960
I'm very reformed to my soteriology. But I just yeah,

1212
01:07:12.000 --> 01:07:13.840
but hey, that's where you come in. Now, you go

1213
01:07:13.920 --> 01:07:15.800
listen and tell me what you think. Everyone, have a

1214
01:07:15.800 --> 01:07:16.880
great evening, God bless