Christianity and Sin Pt 1

0:01 All right. This morning, in churches all across the United States of America, when they begin their worship service, somewhere close to the beginning, they will say something similar to this. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But if we confess our sins, God, who is faithful and just, will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Most Merciful God, we confess that we are in bondage to sin and cannot free ourselves. We have sinned against you in thought, word. Indeed, by what we have done and by what we have left undone, we have not loved you with our whole heart. We have not loved our neighbor as ourselves. For the sake of your son, Jesus Christ, have mercy on us, forgive us something similar to that that has been happening in churches for pretty close to two thousand years, where the worship service begins with some type of general confession of sin. Now, the fact that that has been happening in churches for basically two thousand years, and it continues even to this very morning, that should tell us something correct. That should tell us that everyone who shows up at church still does what sin. They

1:31 continue to sin, and this reality led me last week to say the Christian life is a life of sin. The Christian life is a life of sin, even though that reality exists, even though it is confessed, especially within the non Catholic evangelical fundamentalist world. The idea is that the Christian life is not a life of sin, but the Christian life is a life of victory. It is a life of overcoming sin. It's a life of basically being holy and being godly. But it's those people out there who are the ungodly, or if you're in a more lordship world, the reason some live a life of sin is because they were never saved and their profession in Christ is false. It is not true and this and most people are just kind of comfortable with the way it is. It doesn't really bother them. They kind of shrug their shoulders, They don't give it much thought.

2:33 Pastors can say pretty much anything from the pulpit about this area, and as long as it sounds like he hates sin and he's telling us to be good people, then okay. Nobody ever really breaks it down from a logical perspective, but then something will happen, something so called scandalous or some kind of big sin. Then everyone gets up and arms and they want something done. There'll be some kind of punishment, someone will be deleted from the face of the earth, and everyone will be good with it, because, in some weird way of thinking, it doesn't really matter how many sins we commit as long as we don't want commit certain ones, because certain ones are the end of everything. So this kind of weird existence, again, it doesn't bother the average person in the pew, and it obviously doesn't bother the average person in the pulpit, but it should bother all of us. So we started talking about it last week, right, we talked about we looked at how Lordship attempts to answer it, did we not?

3:42 And that's what we did in the first hour, And in the second hour we went to the second therefore in the Book of Romans, Romans two to one, and what did that therefore tell us? Well, if we understand Romans one eighteen and following to be really a description of all of us, And that was my interpretation of Romans one eighteen and following, when it says God gave them over my argument is that God has given all of us over to the sinful nature, and we all still live with the sinful nature. Therefore we all steal sin, and as a result Romans two to one. Therefore we should not do what we should not judge, because whenever we judge, we're guilty of the same thing. And what did I try to explain? We may not be guilty of the same specific sin, but if you break sins into different categories, we are probably guilty of the very similar sin or sin in the same category. So that's kind of what we did in church. Then this week on the podcast, I have been addressing this issue over and over and over and over again, and I pointed people to a book called Six Secrets of the Christian Life.

4:58 Six Secrets of the Christian Life, and we started taking this book apart because this book is an attempt to try to explain why Christians continue to sin. And then I started acting out this little skit on the podcast over and over and over about, you know, a police officer coming to a Baptist church and finding all of these dead bodies. And then we've been working doing this over and over and over. So let me break down at least how this book put forth their solution, because if you look throughout church history, there's been supposed solutions to explaining why we continue to sin. All right, So here's how the book broke it down. Are you ready?

5:41 Number one, if you are a Christian, If you are a Christian, your body is dead. Your body is dead, all right. Everybody got that. The body is dead. And you may not understand dead in what way because my body is still moving around. Just go with me. The Christian body is dead according to this view. Everybody got that. Number two, the nature and the heart of every Christian has been completely changed and transformed on the inside. You have a new heart, you have a new nature. You are a new creature. The old is gone. All is new, and you have the spirit of God inside of you that empowers you. This is all the stuff that's supposedly going on on the inside of you, all right. So what's number one? According to this view, the body is dead.

6:47 Number two, everything inside is brand new. The call is no longer coming from inside the house. All right. God went in, took out the serial killer. He's gone, and now everything on the inside is good right now right there kind of makes you stop and go, well, wait a minute, then, how does this explain? What? Why do we continued sin? Are you ready for? Number three? The body, because it is dead, cannot respond to the new nature. So on the inside, the inside is saying what do good? Do? Good?

7:28 Do good? But the body is doing what. It's not even saying. No, it can't respond. It doesn't matter how many calls the nature gives to the body. The body is just dead to any spiritual anything. The body just there's not gonna respond. All right, well that kind of all right. That leads to some problem. Right, Well, how does this work? So what is this solution? Then? The solution is number four. So number one, the Christian body is dead. Number two, the nature and heart has completely changed. Number three, the body cannot resc to the new nature. Number four, a resurrection of the body must occur. Now, now we need a resurrection now of the body, and that resurrection is possible. This is just another solution within Christianity to this problem. All right, it's no more ridiculous than all the other ones if you really think about it. Okay, nobody has a good answer. But okay, so we need a resurrection. So then what are you left with? How do we get this resurrection? Right? How do we get this resurrection? So all of that I just outlined. That's in chapter one of the book. All right, that's all chapter one of the book, Six Secrets of the Christian Life.

8:48 The rest of the chapters, I guess, and that's secret number one. Secret number one is your body is dead. This chapters two, three, four following each give another secret that try to figure it out, and it gets confusing from that point, right. So the next secret, and you can just write this one down, is that we need a mirror. We need a mirror. A mirror will fix our problem. And this is where the book gets really contradictory, because they said that we need a resurrection, right, Well, then they say we need a mirror. Now, guess what the mirror is the Bible. So supposedly, if we take the mirror, the Bible and put it in front of our dead body, then the mirror will help. And now this is where it gets weird. They change the language from resurrection to now transformation, that somehow looking into the mirror will begin to transform us. Now, wait a minute, this is confusing, right, because if my body cannot respond to spiritual my spiritual nature. Then what is going to motivate me to do? What to pick up the Bible?

9:58 All right, so that's already confusing enough, right, but let's say an external source convinces me to pick up my Bible. Well, now, if I'm picking up my Bible, so the Bible is going to try transform the dead body, is going to somehow make the dead body come to life. Well they stopped in the next chapter. They abandon the word resurrection. So now it's like a slow transformation. Well, you said the body is dead. So do you transform a dead body or do you resurrect a dead body? And is a resurrection a partial thing? Because a resurrection would mean you would go from death to life, not part. So then it becomes more confusing. Well then, so then we got that far, and then I decided. Well, so then in my little skit that I kept doing, I was like, you know, hey, patrol, this is Patrol one. Headquarters, come in.

10:48 And then headquarters would would say to Patrol one, go ahead, I'm at first Baptist church. I found three hundred dead bodies. Okay, well let's try to put a mirror in front of it. Okay, Well that didn't really explain anything. So then I was like, well, this gets even more confusing. Let's do this, Let's do an operation. Right, So I spent an hour doing an operation and trying to figure out the makeup of what we supposedly are on the inside, because if you look at church history, nobody can really explain it. Because during all of this this week, we've been reviewing sermons, and it gets really confusing, right because you have some sermons who make it sound like we have a new heart and we have a new nature. Well, in my mind, how is the heart and the nature different? Right? So does that mean we had an old heart and an old nature we got saved. Now we have a new heart and we have a new nature, plus we have the Holy Spirit. Some try to make it sound like, well we get a new heart, but then the old nature is there, so wait, so do we have so? Wait? Wait?

11:52 Do we have a new heart? And almost inevitably, the more you try to break this down, nobody can really articulate exactly what the makeup of us on the inside is. And guests where every single sermon, every single thing I've read that talks about a new heart. Guess where every single pastor went when he says that we have a new heart. No, no, not Jeremy thirty one. But you're in the right you're thinking the right thing. Ezekiel thirty six. Every single one went to Ezequel thirty six, and every time they do that, I lose my Remember we went through Ezekuel thirty six. What did I have? You guys count how many times the word Israel was found? Because the entire chapter is about Israel. It's not about us.

12:42 So you can't go to Ezekiel thirty six and tell me that I have a new heart when Ezequel thirty six is not promising me a new heart. It's promising Israel a new heart. And what does it say, right after they get a new heart, then you will be in the land that I promised your fathers. That's not the church. Then all right, So then I'm like, so, do we have a new nature, new heart? Nobody can really articulate it. It sounds like basically the basic premise is guess what, ladies and gentlemen, Everything on the inside is completely changed and you have the power of God on the inside. Yet this is how it's described. There is the leftover influence of sin well where is the influence of sin coming from? Like, so some try to put it in the body, so then separating again the body from the nature and it becomes confusing. So then I and you remember the argument I made last week, and I said it over and over and over, and I mean, AI gotten a big argument over it because it disagrees with me, But I don't care because AI has to pull from all of Christianity, which means basically, AI told me your perspective on this is outside of Christianity.

13:56 But I don't care because Christianity is just a I had to admit Christianity is completely illogical on this perspective, but it said, ay, but Christianity would not go with my view of logic, And I'm like, well, logic destroys Christianity here, because my logic is this. If you claim that we have a new heart, new nature, and the power of God inside of me, all working to make me holy, everyone has to admit, which fact, we still sin and we can't be perfect. So what was my argument last week? Does anybody remember whatever is keeping us from perfection, whatever is keeping me from no longer sinning, by definition, would be what controlling me. It would be the greater power? Right, So then how do you explain that?

14:57 AI was like, Christianity will not allow you to basically say that Christianity will not allow that. And I'm like, I don't care what Christianity says. Facts tell what are the facts? We sin? What are the facts? We cannot be perfect? Therefore we are in a perpetual state of sin. If I'm in a perpetual state of sin, you cannot tell me that I am free. You cannot tell me that I'm no longer in bondage. And how did that confession that's from a Lutheran confession? We are still in bondage to sin. Lutherans confess that we're still in bondage to sin. Well, you know, why would they confess that we're still in bondage to sin? Because we still say, right, so, how do we process all of that? All? Right? So here's what we're going to do. Here's what we're so says everybody got the basic parts down to at least that book are what are their solution? Number one? The body is dead. Number two, everything inside is new. Number three, the body can't respond to the new. A resurrection of the body must happen. And then somehow they can't really tell me how the resurrection occurs. It's almost like the resurrection is possible, But then they revert back to and again inevitable. What does everyone say. I mean they say it in a much more unique way. But what it comes down to is you just need to read your Bible more and you just need to study more. That's what it always comes down to, right, Well, yeah, they would admit that, we still send but I mean, it

16:29 just makes no sense because if I can have a resurrection, and then if my body is alive to my nature, and if my nature is perfect, what would be the inevitable result of that? Should be perfect? But it comes down to if you'll just read and study your Bible more. Christians have been reading and studying their Bible for two thousand years. Has anyone figured it out yet? No? Okay, so reading this is what I would argue. Does reading again, I got to get myself in trouble. Does reading studying the Bible change your nature? No? It doesn't. What is reading and studying the Bible do that? It will point out what is wrong? Right? It just shows you. That's why it's a mirror, because it shows you what's wrong.

17:21 Showing you what's wrong doesn't fix what's wrong? Correct? Does everyone at least agree with that? So here's what we're gonna do. I don't know which way I want to go here? All right, let's do this. Let's which one, Which way do I want to go? Because I've got a lot of different possibilities here. Let's let's go through this, all right, Let's steal in this hour Christianity and sin. That's what we're gonna go with, Christianity and Sin. And we're just gonna look throughout the ages, throughout Church history and look at the different ways Christians have tried to address this problem. All right, We're just gonna take a journey and look at the different thilological approaches to this issue.

18:05 All right? Does that work? Then in the next hour, what we may do is go through church history and look at how the church history approaches the subject of the law, because this becomes a major issue as well. If you want to look since if you haven't been listening to the podcast, if you go to Romans chapter eight and look at verse ten. Real quick, Romans eight ten, Romans eight ten, All right, Romans eight ten. Everybody ready, and if Christ is in you. The body is dead, all right, that's where this all comes from. The body is dead because of sin, so that's why there the argument is, see, it's the body's fault, all right, but the spirit of life because of right because but the spirit is life because of righteousness. So they say, the spirit is where inside of us, and that's life. So on the inside we're spiritually alive, we're ready, we're perfect, but the body is dead. So the conflict is between these two sources, right, And so then they go on, what's the next verse? Talk about right? Continue, Okay, we'll

19:37 give life to the moral body. So the argument is, you can see where the book comes from. Hey, we just need this resurrection. Now, you can argue throughout Church history some people say that a resurrection there is not a promise of a resurrection in this life. That's a view of eschatology about the resurrection or when we have a glorified body. All right. So but the issue is we got to somehow fix the dead body part. Right. If we can fix the dead body part, then everything will be somehow good to go. But the reality is this Christianity has grappled with the tension between the idea, idea victory over sin, and the lived reality that sin continues to be a norm in the Christian life. I want, ever, want to hear that again. Everybody pay attention to that.

20:23 Everybody ready. Christianity has grappled with the tension between the ideal of victory over sin and the lived reality that sin continues to be a norm in the Christian life. All right, So Christianity has two things going on. An ideal, right, and this is what I always call the infocommercial Christianity. This is the Christianity sell and then we have the norm. Right, what is the ideal when you come to Christ? If anyone is in Christ as a new creation, all things pass away, all things have become new. That is what was sold to me from the moment I became saved.

21:11 That was one of the little green memory card packet that me and Stacy both carried. Guess what that was one of the first verses we memorized. But guess what happened. I had to struggle with the reality that my life did not look like a new creation. And I had to struggle with that, and so I went through every kind of psychological way of trying to adjust this the average person in the pew doesn't stinking care. That's just the reality. If the average people in the pew cared, Christianity would be further down the road than addressing this. Nobody cares. Everybody just pretends that there's something that they're not. But here's the thing. If that's the ideal and the reality is that Christians continue to sin, you see what this leads to, right, what is the inevitable? What is some of the things this is inevitably going to lead to this contradiction? Okay, it's gonna lead many for those some people in the view, they're just gonna live in a perpetual state of doubt, confusion, no assurance, thinking they're lost.

22:20 And usually in every church you may have one person that way, but most of the people are just they just kind of look at the other person as what what's their problem? What's their Everybody looks at them like they're the weirdo, like they should not be they should just get over it, Like what's the they're they're they're making a big deal out of this. And that's true even in church history. How many Luthers were there in church history? Not many? What was Luther constantly worried about he ain't camp saying I'm a center, I'm a center, I'm a center, I'm a center, And what was everybody else doing? Just get over it, Luther, get over it. Even if their system should have led to that, everyone talks a bit game, but most Christians just ignore the reality of their sin. So you're gonna it's gonna lead a lot of people to doubt. What else is it going to lead to? Well, it's gonna lead to you almost have to create a system where you can be like, what, all of these sins are just kind of venial and these are the mortal as long as you don't commit the mortal. We're all we've all agreed what we're okay, all right, Hey, your venal sins good to go. My video sins good to go. But you better not or I better not commit the mortal. Which is just weird, right, It's just so weird. And guess what, let's just be honest, Okay, nobody wants to admit this. This can lead to people,

23:51 you know, we call it deconstruction in twenty twenty four. It leads to people turning on their you know, video camera and creating TikTok videos that say I used to be a Christian and this this stuff is trash, it's stupid, it doesn't work, it's ridiculous. You sold this trash. It doesn't work. I continue to sin. And but if you admit that you continue to sin, then and if you're not careful then and also what does it lead to? All kinds of philological approaches to try to address it? Right, That's why, let's where lordship comes from. And then and then and then if you don't like the way anyone else views it, you accuse them of being an anti Noomian. That's just just that's what everyone goes to. And the whole thing is just ridiculous, and it just it leads to confusion. But everyone admits, what is the norm of the Christian life? Sin? Now, I know lordship people will say that is not the norm of the Christian life and all. And what do you have to tell a lordship person who says that, If I have a lordship person says the norm of the Christian life is not sin, what do you have to do? Okay, all you have to do is say everyone should know these scriptures right, and we'll be looking at them in greater detail. Are you ready? Be ye? Holy as holy? That's found in Leviticus, and that's found in what first or second? Peter? Okay, Now all I have to say is have you ever done that? The answer should be no. If not, then that means what you are in a perpetual state of

25:23 disobedience to that one law, Love God with all your heart, mind, body, and soul. Have you done that? Don't tell me I do it some or I'm trying. No, no, no, no no no. What is the law? Demand perfection? So if they do not love God with all their heart, mind, body and soul, and they're not as holy as God as holy, then they are in a perpetual state of sin, which lordship should tell you what. You're not saved, But the people who hold lordship will still say they're saved, which is just the hypocrisy. There is astounding So every one should be able to admit word a perpetual state of sin. So here are some ways Christianity has tried to address this. You're ready for number one. I don't even know how this one addresses the problem, but they will say progressive sanctification. This is always the reform people.

26:20 Progressive sanctification. I don't know how this fixes this problem. I don't know how this is even an answer, But even AI would revert to this sometimes, all right, and it drives me crazy. What do they mean by progressive sanctification? Sanctification is a progressive thing. It's a slow thing, all right, But listen for the key words. Are you ready progressive sanctification? This is the Reformed and Evangelical tradition. Sin remains a reality in the believer's life, but over time Christians are sanctified or made more are holy through the work of the Holy Spirit. Okay, now stop right there, all right, where's our first logical problem with what I just read?

27:16 What is the first logical problem with this one? Just from that very first sentence? Okay, we pay close attention. Are we ready? Here we go? Sin remains a reality in the believer's life, but over time Christians are sanctified or made more holy through the work of the Holy Spirit. Okay, okay, Well, we could say, if sin remains a reality, then why do we act? Then how do we then throw some people out for committing a sin? If sin remains a reality, then what is going to happen in every church? Sin.

27:57 So then how do some people get at communicated or thrown out or quote unquote whatever you want to use the terms. Now, logically you would think, well, biblically, the only reason anyone should get in trouble is because they refuse to acknowledge their sin or repent. Right, you can't really get in trouble for sinning because everyone sins. All right, But that's not even the one I was thinking of. But okay, there was something else there that should have just jumped out at everyone. But you are probably so ingrained in the Christian world you don't see it. Oh there we go. Now, why would that be a problem, Sarah? Okay, if it's the Holy Spirit doing the work, what should be the first question? Why is it not perfect? A second?

28:43 If it's the Spirit doing the work, then any lack of said work is the Holy Spirit's fault. So then they come along and say no, no, no, no, but we can stop it. Well, if I can stop it, then I am more powerful than the Holy Spirit. Not only that, If I am stopping the Holy Spirit because I don't want the work, where is that not wanting coming from? Because supposedly what has been changed the inside? So if the inside has changed and the Holy Spirit's living on the inside, then where is my not wanting to change coming from. Someone's going to explain where the not wanting to is coming from? And if the Holy spirit's on the inside, could he not change my not want to to want to in about two point three seconds?

29:31 That doesn't This doesn't explain anything, right, In fact, it makes me what should In fact, let's just be honest. I know it doesn't do this to the average person in the view. This should tick off every Christian and it should make us somewhat frustrated with God. Right, does God want you to be holy? Who's supposedly doing the work to make me holy? But yet I can't get to perfection? Yet God then gets mad at me for not getting to affection. But he's the one who's supposed to be making me. Okay, come on, let's be on that.

30:12 I know we're not supposed to say this in church. That's maddening. That's just pure craziness. Right. That's like a parent saying, Okay, I'm the one who's gonna give you the ability to do this, and I want you to do this, and if you don't do this, you're gonna get in trouble. But I'm the one who's gonna give you the ability to do it. But I'm for some reason not going to give you the ability to do it. Yet I'm still gonna punish you for not doing it. Well, people would look at you as a parent and say, what You're insane. If God wants me to be something, then he's supposedly empowering me to be yet he won't get me there. Yet I still remain in trouble for not getting to where he wants me to get. And he's the one supposedly giving me the power. It's confusing, And then how much power does he give me? So if Sarah is here in holiness, but I'm down here in holiness, why does God want Sarah to be up here?

31:13 And he wants me down here? And who should Sarah be met at? Can't she can't come to me and say what's your problem? Because I can say God's working on me. Back off. God just obviously is not in a hurry to give me anywhere else. Now, some people say, well, now you're blaming God. Well, then if if you tell me it's not God doing it, then it's not God doing it. And if it's me doing it. Now you see where it's gonna even get more confusing. Right, how can I do it? Not? The only way I could do it is if God completely makes me able to do it. Just what is a common teaching in the reformed world is a teaching in the reform world? You can keep the law. You've been made able to keep the law. Well, if I've been made able to keep the law, then guess what I should be able to do, because to keep the law requires what. Well, if I'm able, then I don't need God to do anything. He just made me able. I should just be able to do it.

32:23 He said, Well, you're able, but there's things about inside of you that doesn't want to. Well, then where is the thing inside of me that doesn't want to? Right? Where is that coming from? Because you tell me the spirit is inside of me empowering me. Well, if the spirit is empowering me, what would be the first thing he should do to empower me to keep the law? To remove my not want to It's just it's stupid, is what it is. Like. I'm so sick of hearing it. It's just mindless talk. And as soon as you start questioning this, Christians get ticked off at you. Christians get mad like, don't get mad at me. I didn't create the system, right, It's your responsibility to answer it, not mine.

33:05 All right, So let's let's take this apart, all right. So sin remains a reality in the believer's life, but over time Christians are sanctified or made more holy through the work of the Holy Spirit. The idea is that growth in holiness happens gradually. Though are you ready for this? What do you think is gonna be said? After that? Though? What do you think is gonna be said? Though? Perfection is never fully attained in this life? What? Okay? All right? So it's progressive, but it's progressive sanctification, meaning though I'm gonna be what let's just we can revert. You can either look at the glass half full or you're gonna look at it half empty, right right, But let's just let's look at the reality. If I'm never going to get than what is the reality of my life? Sin?

34:06 No matter how? Because and then how are you defining that I'm becoming progressively more holy? Almost inevitably? What's going to be viewed upon based off external actions? Right? Does external actions prove progressive holiness. No, there are lost people right who used to do this action, this action, this action, this action, and for whatever reason they have stopped all of those actions. Is that progressive sanctification? No, this just behavioral modification. Behavioral modification happens where everywhere in society, it does it not? So behavior can be modified with or without God. There's people of all religions who talk about I used to be this, Now I am this because I converted to Allah because of this, because I became a Mormon, or because I became a Jehovah's witness. Even false religions have behavioral modification, does it not? So that doesn't even prove anything. Sarah and I both over and over through this entire discussion in the history of this church, which verse has always bothered us, Lord Lord, did we not do these things depart meaning all of that change proved nothing that that shouldn't bother everyone should be like, well, then that doesn't even all. I thank the God that

35:36 I'm not like these people. And who went home justified? The one who wasn't changed In interesting, the one who said I'm not like all of these people wasn't justified. The one who was justified is the one who So it doesn't even fit Christianity, right, it doesn't even this doesn't even make any sense all right? Now, this is what this view is often called. And this, oh, I don't like this view the way they describe it, because AI loves to go back to this over and over and over. This view is sometimes called already but not yet, already but not yet. This is where Christians are declared righteous through Christ, but continue to struggle with Sin. I don't like that already, not yet, only because it leads to some confusion. What I like to describe everything, you know, where I like to position on practice? Right, I think, to me, there's the answer, but Ai, I mean, if I get into it, Ai, with enough discussion about this, it will kind of get there. But it uses the language of most of Christianity. But continue this view ongoing battle with Sin Paul's So there's the sactification as a process. Now, in this they would talk about the ongoing battle with Sin.

37:02 Paul's writings such as Roman seven acknowledges an ongoing struggle with Sin even after conversion. His depiction of the inner conflict where believers desire to do good but are often caught in sin. Is often used to explain why sin persists in the Christian life. That doesn't explain anything, right, Roman seven to me speaks of a reality. It doesn't explain it because Christians still don't know what to do with it. Christians, because if the reality is well Christians are going to continue to struggle with sin. Who's going to struggle with sin? Then all Christians? That would include whom pastors, Sunday school teachers, elders, deacons, secretaries, piano players, anyone and everyone in the church. Yeah, person saved the day or person serve fifty years. And so if we're going to continue to struggle with sin, what should the church then expect sin? But the church can't. The church just will not accept that, will it. It does not accept it. And so so I look, it just drives me crazy. The reality is sin and Christianity has shown a history of not. So that's the progressive revel progressive sanctification view. I don't know, I don't know what you do with that, right, How would you what would you

38:33 say about the progressive sanctification? It doesn't really explain it, right, It just what is it? More acknowledging people will see it as a progression in holiness. I just see it as a continuation of sin. That's what I say. And even and even how do you judge progressive? How do you judge it? Right? I can stop in external behavior, but it may not change anything internally. And and here's the issue. If sin still remains. Come on, what's the big question? If sin still remains, where is it coming from? That's what I want you to get to. Where is it coming from? Because almost inevitably all Christians say, what's changed the inside? Well, then where's it coming from? And remember the very reform people who teach sanctification as a process or it's progressive, will be the very ones who said that we can now keep the law. Well, if I can keep the law, then why is it progressive?

39:35 It makes no sense? All right? So that's number one. Number two, the doctrine of original sin. All right. Now, when we talk about the doctrine of original sin, who's the name we're gonna put to this. Augustine? All right, the Augustinian influence? All right, Saint Augustine or someone say Saint Augustine. Saint Augustine's doctrine of original sin has had a lasting impact on how Christianity understands the human condition. Augustine taught that all humans are born with a sinful nature, inherited from Adam. Even after salvation, are you ready for this?

40:20 Christians retain the fallen nature, making sin an ever present reality. Now, if we still retain a sinful nature, immediately, what concept can we throw out? If I still maintain a sinful nature, what can then I not do? I cannot keep the law? Now this is weird because many of the reform people who would believe in original sin right the Augustinian view, are some of the same people who say that you can now keep the law. You can't keep the law if you have a sinful nature. Why can you not keep the law? If you have a sinful nature? Right, the nature itself would mean internally you would never be able to keep the law internally, and the law demands perfection externally internally, so even if you could get the external to work, but the external is motivated by the internal.

41:28 So then you just you're just lost. I mean, you're just in no way. Now, if you believe Christians maintain a sinful nature, if you truly believe that, then what should you just one thousand percent expect in the church. You should not only expect sin, you should expect an abundance of sin, right, I mean, come on, and if we still have a sinful nature, you know what's common in the reform world and the lordship world. There are no coernal Christians. That's like a foundational it's upon lordship. Well wait a minute, if I have a sinful nature by nature, then I would be even Sometimes when you listen to lordship people who try to talk a big game that they were reformed, they're not reformed. They left the Reformation so far behind. You know what, they're reformed.

42:20 They're the reformed version of the Council of Trent, which was sometimes calmed the counter Reformation. Lordship is the counter Reformation to the Reformation. It's not Chris, it's not. It's Catholicism. I say it again. They're Catholics. They just don't want to go to the Catholic Church. That's why I've said so many times that look, if we should just all go back to Catholicism, there's no point Luther lost. Luther you were a failure, You were an idiot to fight against the Catholic Church. It could not be defeated, and it won. I guess it just changed its name from what Catholic church to Reformed church, but follicism just remained right there. And I know when I say that people lose their mind. But their view is so Catholic it's not even funny. All right. So if we have a sinful nature, then what can we not do? We cannot keep the law. We cannot keep the law, all right?

43:18 Everybody got that right? And so listen, how Christians retain the fallen nature? Making sin an ever present reality? What is an ever present reality in your life? Sin? What is an ever present reality in your life? Sin? This persistence of sin is not seen as abnormal, but as a part of human existence until glorification. Oh, man, lordship, people would lose their mind if I read that. Are you ready to let me read that again? The persistence of sin is not seen as abnormal. The persistence of sin is not seen as abnormal, but as a part of human existence until when glorification. Now, what's the danger of this? Yeah, this is gonna be very hard. It's gonna be very hard to tell me. Then you gotta fight against that sin and that sin, because what could be my argument. I'm gonna send any either way. You can't really blame someone for thinking that, right, I mean, what is your argument but your argument, but a Christian will stop sitting. No, a Christian's not gonna stop sinning, but a Christian will do better. And now that becomes a subjective measurement, right, And what do you mean by that?

44:38 Oh that I'm not gonna commit. I'm not gonna be a homosexual. That's what that means. Right, Okay, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do this or that. But then there's too many statistics to prove what Christians are doing, right, I mean I could bring in statistics all day about pastor pastors and Christian men and just pornography. Those numbers are out really staggering, but nobody wants to talk about that, right, or you have a conference to deal with it. Well, the conference and almost every case is it uses what behavioral modification techniques that are used by a twelve step program? Right, admit your problem, Admit you're powerless over your problem. Have an accountability partner, right like you know, do that. That's not what Christians shouldn't be talking that way, because it should be what you've been transformed, You're a new creature in Christ. You don't have to commit this sin. Just stop. You don't even need a conference. It should just be what stop it?

45:39 And you should be like don Dundun, I can't. The Augustinian influence would say, what when is it? When are you gonna fix it? Glorification? Yeah, glorification? All right? Right now, So the doctrine of original sin you have the Augustinian influence and the august Sian influence basically is, hey, you're a sinner and you're going to what san and your nature is still there. Now, Luther kind of comes into this tradition. Why does Luther come into this tradition? Why would Luther come in flow from the tradition of the Augustinian system. He was an Augustinian monk. Okay, So yeah, so that's that's the historical answer. I want you to say. Okay, he was in the from an Augustinian perspective, right, Martin Luther summarized this tension with a phrase that means at the same time saint and sinner, or he would say, at the same time justified and a sinner. All right, we're gonna run out of time here, But this okay.

46:57 In this view, Christians are always sinners by nature, but are declared righteous through the faith of Jesus Christ. So oh, now we have two people. We have Augustine and we have Luther, both saying that we still remain we still have what a sinful nature? Remember how I started this hour? I quoted from a Lutheran confession of sin, and how did it begin? We are in bondage to sin. We're in bondage to sin, right, Lutherans still maintain that that's that's Lutheran theology is the only one who maintains that. Almost inevitably, every Christian you know will argue, no, no, no, when you become a Christian, you're a new creature. Old pigs have passed away. They will argue that you have a new nature, you will have a new heart, and that you've been completely transformed. Almost every Christian you know who goes to church will argue that. Yet they can't, and they can't then explain why they continue to sin.

47:57 But at least we have in it good to know that there's at least something in Christianity that is willing to acknowledge what we're still a sinner, and we are sinner? What way? Practically? But then what are we? We are justified? And why are we declared righteous through faith in Christ? So then how would Luther describe it? The Christian life therefore, is a continual dependence on God's grace rather than a life of sinless victory. Did everyone hear that? Luther would say the Christian life is a continual dependence on God's grace rather than a life of sinless victory. Luther would not say, We're going to experience what in this life victory over sin? So this entire life is a lesson to do what to depend on God's grace? That's radically different, is it not? So the issue is not, hey become better.

49:04 The issue is become more dependent and rely more and more on God's grace and become more and more open and honest with how sinful we are. But we're not allowed to be that way? Are we? You're not, You're you're you're finished, You're done. There was a ministry, and the ministry there were I mean, let's just be honest. They were jerks. I mean they just attacked everyone, and they attacked everyone just it was insane, the way they attack people, call people names. Everyone's a heretic, but them, Well, the leader of that ministry, well, he's quote unquote disqualified. He embezzled money. Okay, that's definitely not a good thing, right, and then he was he got busted for a dui and he was addicted to some kind of prescription medication.

49:52 Well guess what the ministry did with him and said he's permanently disqualified. But Gus whoever is now currently in charge of said ministry, are they not the same kind of sinner? Say? That's the thing that It's just all we ever care about is what the external manifestation? Like, I just I will never understand the way Christians think about this. So let me read that again. What is the Christian life a continual dependence on God's grace rather than a life of sinless victory? All right, So we've looked at sectification as a process. We've looked at the doctrine of original sin, which gave us Augustine and Luther. Right, all right, now we're going to move forward in church history.

50:50 Are you ready? All right? We're gonna move to John Wesley. This is the Wesleyan holiness. Movement, Wesleyan holiness movement. What is this movement sometimes called Christian perfection? Now there's a little this is going to get a little confusing here, but just stay with me, all right, everybody ready? John Wesley in the Holiness movement, proposed that Christians could attain a state of entire sanctification or Christian perfection, where sin is overcome in this life. However, even in this view, perfection is understood not as sinless perfection, but as perfection and love. So even in this movement they have to modify it. Which what does that tell you that even in this movement that thinks that you can you'll be an overcomer and you can have victory, which I really would argue this movement has influenced much of Christianity more than the Augustinian or Lutheran view, which once again tells me what I know. When I say it, people get ticked off at me. Luther was a failure. The entire Reformation was a failure. It was a complete, abysmal failure.

52:18 Wesleyanism and Holiness movement has influenced Christianity because what is the standard perspective on most Christians? We can overcome, we are victory. We are victorious in Christ. We are overcomers, we're more than conquerors. I can do all things through Christ Jesus, who strengthens me. I can do it right. That's the Christian mantra. But even in this movement that started, it was like, well, well now let's be careful. Now, we can't actually get to true perfection. Isn't that a cop out? Now? That's just what is that? Well? Yeah, well possibly that's a that's a possible way of trying to work around it. Critics often see this as two idealistic as. Most Christians never reach this state. So even critics say, hey, nobody ever reaches this state. And I've known people who I worked with, people who went to these kinds of churches. I worked with them, and so whenever I would call them out on something like well you know it may be possible, but you know I haven't gotten there yet. Well how do you get there?

53:27 But even if they get there, there's still not to true perfection. Well guess what if you if you can't get to true perfection, whatever victory you're claiming, you're still what and perpetual sin? Does everyone understand that any lack of perfection. No matter how much your behavior has changed, they still say. Okay, So I got to take a step back here, just because people will get misinterpret what I'm saying. Are there not life and human benefits and societal benefits from being as good as we can be? Yes, we can all agree, right from a human perspective, don't do this, don't do this, don't do this. There's good things.

54:14 Now this becomes a little problematic though. Within christiandom right, but let's just go agree with that. But what I'm looking at from a theological perspective, no matter how good I can be, I'm still white and sin But then this becomes really think about it now, Oh, nobody's gonna like this question if we go with to me, the only view that makes sense is Augustinian and view right and even Luther, that I still have a sinful nature. If I still have a sinful nature? Oh are you ready for this? Everybody? You're not gonna like this. Can I control which sin I commit? Can I control which sins I commit? This becomes philosophically problematic, right, because if I can control with sins I commit, then that means I'm in control of the sin nature yeah, how much. See, this is where it becomes problem. How much control do I have over the nature? Does the nature drive the engine or drive the ship? Or do I drive the ship?

55:44 If I drive the ship, then I could just drive it away from what I could drive it away from what all sin I know. I'm saying, if I could drive it, then I would be in control. If I'm not in control, then can I control which sins I commit? This is This is a philosophical riddle. Does everybody understand, right, because on one hand, you don't want to say I can't.

56:24 You don't want to say it right. You don't want to say, well, you can't control which sins you commit, because then that would sound like what Well, so immediately you're going to be accused of being an hynomian, is what you're going to be accused of. But you basically are going to be like, well, wait a minute, you're saying, then you don't control anything. Well, I'm just saying if we have a sinful nature, this becomes a major problem. Right if you acknowledge that. On one hand, it makes sense to say we still have a sinful nature? Why because we sin all the time? Right, and so can I stop sinning all the time. No, so MENI I don't have control? Right, Well, now the minute I acknowledge I don't have control, do you see what follows? If I don't have control, then the sin nature has control?

57:14 So then can I control with sins? I commit? Do you see the inevitable logical situation following? And nobody wants to say that, right, I don't want to go Stephen knows doesn't want to look at Sarah, Well, you can't control with sins you commit, and she's like, well, good because I'm gonna kill you in a couple of hours, right, and I just won't be able to control it. Now, nobody wants to acknowledge. Everybody's like, that's just ridiculous. No, you can you have control because that and that gets to a more free will view, right, but then it can my will be free if I have a sinful nature then and if I have free will, then now you're back to the Pelagian view. I should be able to do what be perfect even without conversion. Oh man, do you see the inevitable difficulty this involves. There's there's no this is no way to get out out of this, all right, And we'll have to stop there. We'll have to stop there because we're ten fifty eight. All right, So what are the So let's go through this. What is the reality in the Christian life? It said everyone knows that can I get to perfection? Meaning something is keeping me from it? All right? So Christians have come up with theories and how to deal with it, right, and so we've looked at least the one view in the book Six Secrets of the Christian Life, and they make the argument that the problem is that the body is dead. Everything is changed on the inside, but the body can't respond to the inside, so the body needs a resurrection. But then they can't really tell me how to get the resurrection other than I guess I just got to read my Bible, and I guess then that will.

58:44 I don't know, they can't. It just seems that's leading me to madness. But I'm going to make it through the entire book. I may be drinking by the end of it, but I'm going to make it through the entire book. So that got me thinking, all right, then how do we look at this? So now we've took we've taken a journey the Christian life and what have we discovered, Well, we have the sanctification is a process. Does that really help us? Not really, right, because it leads us with the inevitable question of what, according to this view, the Holy Spirit's the one making me more holy? Well, if the Holy Spirit's making me more holy, why wouldn't he just make me holy? And if the Holy Spirit's the one doing it, then what is stopping the Holy Spirit from accomplishing it? You only got a couple of couple of options, right, God doesn't then want me holy?

59:34 Or I'm stopping the Holy Spirit, Which then it just gets more confusing because why when the Holy Spirit change my want to to want to? All right? All right? So that one doesn't really answer anything. The second one was the idea of original sin. We like this one much better, right? Why do we like this one much better? Because it explains the reality we still have a sin nature. Therefore, we are still going to sin, and we're gonna do so all the way till glorification. All right. Third is the Wesleyan or Holiness movement, and this says that we can reach some state of entire sanctification, but even when we reach an entire state of sanctification, we're we still all right, not truly perfect, meaning even in a situation that teaches some type of entire perfection, we still sin and that means then we're in a perpetual state of sin, which then all of this leads us to some of those additional questions that we put forth right, So we have to go through the Catholic view, the legalistic and moralistic view, the grace centered approach, the mysticism, a spirituality approach, a resolution found in eschatology, a pastoral and practical approach, and then we'll look at a conclusion. Then what we need to do is then we're going to trace church history and how Christians relate to the law, because this is very much related to it, right because you've got who believe that we can keep the law, which is very common in the evangelical reformed world and which I

1:01:08 don't understand how any reasonable person can preach that I can keep the law. And the minute you say I can't, then you go back to the inevitable reality that we're talking about right here, something is keeping me from it, What is keeping me from it, and whatever is keeping me from it has to be explained. What can we all agree upon. If God wants me holy in this life, we should already be there. So the issue then is God's law was never intended to be something that he wants me to accomplish in this life, because if he did, he would make me a to keep it. So then the law is simply designed to do what point out that I can never be it? Now? You know what?

1:02:14 Guess what if you know anyone who's lordship, just what they would immediately say to you, since I don't know, meanism, because that's the only word they have to do, or that's what reality. Every one in this room claims to be a Christian? Is anyone here reach perfection? Has anyone been holy? Why not? Well? Can we not a logically say God has not made me holy? Nobody wants to say that, right nobody? Why does no one want to say that because that sounds like we're blaming God? But can we not agree? God could do what in about two seconds? He could give me a new heart, a new nature, and remove any desire for sin, and I could just be perfect, And then the world driving past churches would be like, hey, kids, those are the perfect people.

1:03:23 Those people are better than all of us but do they drive by churches saying that they drive by self righteous, stinking hypocrites? Well, or just know us? All right? I mean, have you ever worked with Christians. I've worked with plenty of Christians. They've worked with me. Well, guess what we've seen in each other and perfection. Some of them are better at trying to hide it, but almost inevitably you find out that what they're not what they appeared to be. Well, you know what, we should expect them to be sinners.

1:04:04 And I know it's hard for us to say that. All Right, we'll stop there, We'll see how much further we can get into this, and we're going to try to come up with some answers. All right, We're gonna that Romans eight passage is where every everyone seems to go to that Romans eight ten, and I think that that's they're doing some misinterpretation of Romans eight ten. That's insane. So at some point we're gonna walk through Romans eight and we're gonna just look at the entire chapter from a law gospel perspective, because I think that's the only perspective that makes any sense. I think the I think Lutheran theology if they got anything right, they got this right. Okay, So all right this prayer, Lord God, we come before you this morning. Lord, we all everyone in this room. We confess that we are sinners, we have been, we still are, and we will be. Our only hope is not in us trying to be better, but it's in the perfection of your son, Jesus Christ. That's where our hope is, and that's where we rest. And it's in his name we pray. And God's people said