Calvinism

0:02 Looking at our world from a theological perspective. This is the Theology Central podcast making Theology Central. Good afternoon everyone. It is Wednesday, November thirteenth, twenty twenty four. It is currently one forty two pm Central Time, and I am coming to you live from the Theology Central studio located right here in Albilene, Texas. Now, let me speak directly to you who are a church member, those of you who are church members, right, those of you who attend church. You are a church member, or maybe you're not a member of a church, but you attend church on a regular basis, or you're just a Christian. I don't know what your connection is with a church or not with a church, but you are a Christian. In other words, I'm going to speak to all Christians church member, non church member, church attender, non church attender, all Christians who are not pastors, who are not your You're not a seminary professor, you're not a teacher, you're not you just go to church. You're just a believer, all right. I want to speak to you directly, and I want to ask you some questions or question. I don't know how many I may ask here. I may just take the same question or rephrase it a number of different ways as a Christian, as not a pastor, not a seminary professor, just as someone who goes to church attends church, a member of a church, as a Christian as a lay person, maybe we use that term. I want to make sure I can try to find every category I can mention

1:32 so that no one feels left out. All right, I want to make sure everyone knows I'm asking you this question when it comes to philological and doctrinal disputes that have been going on for two thousand years in Christianity and no one can agree. How do you handle it as just an everyday lay person? What do you do? How do you handle it? You do you hear? Well? I listened to this side. I listen to this side. Or here's the millennialist, here's the dispensationalist. Okay, wait, here's the Calvinists, Here's the non Calvinists, here's the here's the people for pro infant baptism. Here's the people against infant baptism. Here's people who believe sprinkling is okay. Here's the people who believe immersion is okay. Here's people who believe in open communion. Here's people who believe in close communion. Here's people who believed in closed communion. Here's people who believe you could lose your salvation. Here's people who believe you can't lose your salvation. Here's lordship salvation, Here's non lordship salvation.

2:24 Here's easy believism. Here's free grace. Oh oh, And it goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. What do you do? Do you just kind of just pick your own just kind of say, well, you know what, I'm gonna go with this side. I'm gonna go with this side. Do you do you decide, Okay, I'm gonna dig in to every part of this poological debate, and I'm gonna read all the books on this side, and I'm going to read all the books on this side. Do you just decide to dig in and do extensive, you know, six month long studies in the Bible alone, trying to figure out which one is true and which one is false? You at some point you just throw up your hands and go, you know what, it doesn't really matter because nobody agrees. How do you handle all of it? How do you handle it? What do you do? How do you find any peace? Does it bother you of the never ending debates and disagreements? Does it drive you crazy that there's this group, in this group, and this and every group thinks they're right. Everyone thinks they're right. The Presbyterian thinks they're right. The Baptist thinks they're right, the Lutheran thinks they're right, The Greek Orthodox thinks they're right, the Episcopalian thinks they're right. You just go on and on, the Methodist, the Church of Christ. Everyone thinks they're right.

3:40 And everyone will hold up a Bible and say that we believe in the inerrancy that the Word of God is infallible, it is preserved, it's God's word, it is there are authority, it is the soul authority, and we base all of our teaching on the Word of God. And while everyone says that, for some weird reason, everyone comes to radically different opinions and conclusions, and they believe those conclusions are not just their opinion, they believe that those conclusions are right. They are dogmatic, and if you disagree with them, you may be labled a heretic All of that happens continually within Christendom, day in day out. This is the right teaching, No, this is the right teaching. Well, and everyone will say the scriptures are the final authority, the sole authority, the inerrant and followable Word of God is the authority. And then like du Well, this group says that. This group says that. So everyone says the Word of God is the final authority, but nobody agrees and what that authority actually says or what it teaches?

4:40 Are you just happy to say this is what I believe and just leave it at that. Just leave it at that. And if you hear something that contradicts what you believe, you ask your pastor you ask someone who already agrees with you to recommend some books that will help prove your point and disprove their point. Do you listen to the other side? Do you consider the other side? Do you realize at some point it's just you're never gonna come to an answer? What do you do? Like? How do you approach it? Does it drive you insane? Well?

5:22 The reason I'm asking that kind of basically one question over and over and over in different ways is because someone emailed me and asking me a question about a very debated and controversial subject that directly relates to well the subject of soteriology or well, just to make it simple, salvation, How we are saved? Who is saved? Why are these people saved? Those people are not? Why is that individual saved and that individual not saved? So it's a doctrinal issue, It's a doctrinal dispute. It's a philological controversy. So what can I do to help this individual? I don't even know?

6:10 Should my desire be to help them come to a conclusion? Now, my approach on this has dramatically changed over the years. When I was younger, then I'm like, okay, I'm on, here's my theological team, all right. If someone emails me, I'm going to answer that question. According to my theological team, I'm going to do everything I can to explain it, to defend it, and to explain why the other side is wrong. I really very much in a kind of a debate mode, a fight mode, a defend mode. But over the years I've kind of taken a different approach because a lot of theological issues. I still may believe this side is right and this side is wrong. But a lot of times I like to step back and going to wait, before we get into a fight, what exactly are we debating here? Like, when you really boil it down, what are we really debating? What are we really fighting? Because there's got to be something that you know, does it? How much does this dispute really matter? Now?

7:11 Sometimes the dispute matters far more than it may appear. Like there are times where what may seem insignificant is really far more significant because it has profound impact on Bible hermeneutics and how you interpret the scriptures. And if you go with that idea here, it's going to have a massive impact on how you interpret the rest of the Bible. So sometimes what may seem insignificant is very significant. And sometimes what seems, oh, there's this huge divide, we're never going to agree, let's fight, fight, fight, Sometimes when you step back and go but what are you really fighting? What where are you going to actually end up? And so sometimes I like to step back and kind of look at it in a bigger from a kind of a bigger perspective. Hopefully maybe maybe I can do that.

8:01 So here is what the email is about. I'll just go ahead and tell you the email is about the subject of Calvinism. Now, I cannot stand really the word Calvinism because that reduces an entire doctrinal system to John Calvin, one man and Calvinism. It's not about John Calvin, it's not about Luther, it's not about you name any of the reformers. It's not about Augustin so early, about the scriptures. It's really about what do the scriptures say in regards to salvation. Now, specific men have systematized or a doctrinal system becomes connected to them because of their teaching on it. But the issue isn't what that man says. The issue isn't what a certain individual says. It's what the Word of God says. And here's the frustrating part, though, here's the frustrating part. No matter what doctrinal system, lordship salvation, non lordship salvation, a millennialism, Arminianism, Lvinism, dispensationalism, you name it, pre trib, post trib, mid trip, it doesn't matter. I mean, we can just I'm just throwing out all kinds of views.

9:08 Infant baptism, non infant baptism. You just go through all the philological issues. Here's what's frustrating. Even if we disregard all the teachings of men and all of their arguments and all of their systems, even if we get rid of all of that and we get to scripture, here's what happens. Every side has their scriptures. Everyone every side. I don't know. We can remove anyone who would reject the sole authority of scripture. We can reject that because they would be relying on something else, right, But when it comes to most Christians, they're going to hold up their Bible saying this is the final authority, this is the final authority for all doctrine, for all theology. We base our doctrine and theology on the Word of God alone, solo scriptorra scripture alone. It is infallible, it is in errant.

10:00 So everyone will say that, and they'll give you and you can ask them their question. No, here's the scriptures that prove my point. And then they'll come along. No, no, no, no, here's the scriptures that prove my point. And then if you're just again the people I'm addressing, just a lay person, non church member, church member, church attender, whatever the case may be, you're like Okay, So which side do I go with? Do I go with this side or do I go with this side? They've got their scriptures, but they got their scriptures. Which scriptures? Which scriptures prove their point? Because you've got very obviously educated and godly people on both sides claiming the scriptures teach their perspective. Now you can come along and go. They got all their scriptures wrong.

10:46 These are the right scriptures. You can do that. But again, sometimes it is so maddening. So here's what we're going to do. We're going to take a little journey through a lot of death. I'm gonna go a little bit of my past where I am, and I'm just gonna try to kind of challenge this, maybe in a way that most people would not answer it. Okay, So here's the email. Here is the email. I received this at eight twenty eight am today, eight twenty eight am today. It begins this way. I have listened to you for a while now and agree with a lot that you say. Wait, you don't agree with everything. What in the world. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I do not answer emails to people who don't agree with me in everything. I only answer emails with people who agree with me in everything, or who send me one thousand dollars that I'm joking. I'm joking.

11:40 I'm joking. I'm always shocked that people don't agree with me. I don't know how how can you not agree with me in everything? My logic is flawless, my reasoning is impeccable, my genius. Okay, now I'm just I'm being facetious. I'm just being sarcastic. Some people are gonna click that and say, look at the man. He's an egomaniac, He's an Okay, I'm just joking, all right, serious z illological issue. We can have a little bit of fun here, all right. So unfortunately this person is wrong, because anytime someone disagrees with me, they are wrong, all right, But they go on to say I too, this is the email are speaking now? Have struggled with lordship salvation and I've appreciated your podcast on those. Okay, well, good, all right, we are an agreement there. And just for anyone who's new listening, I used to be a big supporter of the lordship position because when I became a Christian, lordship's salvation was just was kind of being introduced, right, as far as maybe the title that idea being labeled that way. MacArthur's book The Gospel according to Jesus had just been released, and I felt I thought that was just Christianity. I didn't really think, oh, lordship salvation versus non. I just thought, oh, this is Christianity, and anything that disagrees with this isn't Christianity.

12:58 I didn't have any fuel logical. Once again, the person sitting in the pew, the your perspective is always very interesting. Then maybe someone with a lot of the philological education, but for me, I just thought that it was. And then over time, of course we could go through my journey of well beginning to question lordship salvation. Right, They go on to say, and I also understand and also understanding law and gospel passages are imperative to understanding Christianity. Okay, yes, law and gospel. Understanding the distinction between law and gospel is absolutely their their keywords or their words they use, and perative to understanding Christianity. We are so much in agreement on that. The subje just the email continues the subject I also struggle with that I haven't really heard you talk much about. Is Calvinism all right, well, well Finnich, I want to just jump in right there, but okay, we'll continue unless I've missed those podcasts. I see what the past, I see what the passages that seem to support a lot of tulips say, but struggle, especially with God predestinating some to salvation and others to damnation. I don't consider myself a Calvinist, but I do question that doctrine, especially for that reason. If you can discuss this on a podcast at some point, I would greatly appreciate it

14:28 and will be listening. Thank you. Now. The good thing about this email is underneath it is says sent from my iPhone. Well, the fact that they're using an iPhone and Apple device immediately says you, Well, you are one of the predestined. You are one of the elect because you're using an iPhone, which demonstrates that you are godly spiritual, probably completely sanctified, and probably ready for heaven because you're not using one of those evil Android devices. And those people are demonic, satanic and well actually kind of scary and you don't really want to have anything to do with Okay, I'm joking again. I'm joking again. All right, So they struggle with the idea, and in fact their words are let me see here, I struggle, especially with God predestinating some to salvation. All right, so let's stop, let's kind of go back. I'm gonna bring you through my journey, and then I'm gonna probably handle this in a way that nobody else would handle it, because typically if you email someone like this, if they're a Calvinist, they're gonna come in and you're like, I'm going to defend Calvinism and explain to you why it's true. And if they're a non Calvinist, I'm going to come to you and explain to you why it's why. I'm gonna explain why the non Calvinist view is right and Calvinism is wrong. The Calvinist is gonna say, I'm gonna explain to you why Calvinism is right and the non Calvinism perspective is wrong. And they have their agenda, they have their team, and if you've been listening to me, you know I hate pill Lodge teams. Right, So I'm going

16:01 to approach this in a way that may not be helpful, but it's it's going to be at least unique. So, all right, hopefully maybe it'll be somewhat unique. All right, so are you ready? Let's start with my journey. I was saved in a Southern Baptist church here in the middle of nowhere, Texas, First Baptist Church of Tuscola, Texas Fall Revival. It was an it was October. It was a revival service. I don't remember anything that was preached. I just knew I'm a sinner, I deserve to go to Hell, and Jesus Christ paid for my sins. That's about all I understood. I believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, and I was saved. It was a very non Calvinistic church.

16:47 It was an Armenian church, believed in free will. I wouldn't They would have probably not stated that they were Pelagian or semi Pallagian because they didn't really get into any serious theology. They didn't really mention calvin of non Calvinism. The only thing they really mentioned was Church of Christ because it's West Texas and there was a Church of Christ church almost in the same property of as the Baptist church or they were literally right next to one another. It was kind of funny, but right next to one another. So they would talk about church Christ about the idea of losing your salvation or baptismal regeneration. But the Southern Baptist Church was not a theologically minded church. It was more about you know, revival and evangelism and and you know, don't drink, don't listen to rock and roll, don't dance, you know, don't have you know, sex before marriage. It was that kind of a moralistic, revivalistic, you know, very much about you know, holy living kind of thing, piet Pietism, that type of thing. That's kind of what it was.

17:50 And but I, after becoming safe, I had theological question after theological question, after theological question, after theological question, after theological question after theological question, and finally I'm like, I give up. You guys won't give me anything. So I did a lot of my study theological studies, was buying books, libraries at Christian universities, just reading, reading, reading, and the more questions I have, I wasn't getting anywhere because the Southern Baptist Church was just like, you know, their answers were I don't even know. There was no there was no depth to them. There was there was just like there was none there was I was going to try to give you a measurement for the depth of the answers, but there literally was no depth to be found. So I found myself in a Lutheran church. Now, the first Lutheran church I found, I was like, what in the world is this. It was the Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.

18:44 It was liberal, and it was I didn't quite understand what was going on there. So then I found myself in a Missouri syned Lutheran church, philological, rooted in church history, doctrinal and oh. Then the next you know, I'm going to classes, you know, with the Catechism, classes with Luther's Catechism and the Augsburg Confessions, and I'm oh, I'm learning doctrine, I'm learning theology, and man, this is awesome and and everything is going great. And then this is the first time I was confronted with this calvinistic idea of predestination. I'm sitting in the driveway of my house. One of the he was in his twenties. I was a teenager.

19:28 I think he was in his twenties, young adult who attended the Lutheran Church. We would go to movies together, do things together, and he was bringing me home one evening and we got into a theological discussion, because I was always having theological discussions, and he started kind of putting forth this calvinistic idea, and I was kind of looking at him like, I think you're out of your mind, right. It didn't make any sense to me. It didn't make any sense to me at all. I was somewhat perplexed and conf used. It didn't make a lot of sense to me what he was trying to say. Because he was trying to say I think a lot of it would have been the way, you know, he was a lay person. He wasn't, you know, in ministry or anything.

20:11 And I think the way he was trying to articulate it just seemed like it seemed all confusing. But I do remember this as my time as a Lutheran, I begin to be much more understand that I'm born a sinner, that I am born depraved, that I'm a depraved sinner, that I am born dead in my trespasses and sins. I was really starting to understand that. So, sitting in the parking lot of my Lutheran church, I was having conversations with basically my best friend at the time, he still attended the Southern Baptist Church. I left the Southern Baptist Church. He was still there. So we were having a conversation and his explanation of human beings were in fact, do I have one here? Lean? I mean, I'm gonna reach down and grab this. I'm gonna grab a notebook here.

21:05 I'm gonna go to the back of the notebook. I'm gonna go to the very back. I'm gonna rip out this paper. Right, I'm gonna rip this out if I can. I'm gonna rip out this paper. All right, there's a blank sheet of paper. It's all nice straight. Well. He this is my Baptist friend at the Southern Baptist Church I left. Right. We're sitting in the parking lot of Our Savior Lutheran Church, Missouri, centered on South Seventh Street now Bailene, Texas. You can look it up. It's a cool looking round building right right. And I've always said when when my if my church goes away, and you know, I probably I'm gonna go back to a Lutheran church, even though I may not ever become a member. There's no other church I think I can attend. I think Lutheranism at least has the law and gospel distinction. I can't stand their view on infant baptism, but okay, all right, but I digress. So my friend's sitting there and he's like, well, when a person is born, they're born like this piece of paper. He held up a piece of paper. It's nice, it's pure, it's innocent. And then we come along and we crumble it all up with our sin and our disobedience.

22:18 And then God comes along and he straightens the paper back out. And I looked at my friend and I was like, well, that's why I'm not a part of that church anymore. That's the most ridiculous thing. So then I said, no, no, no, no, no, no, we are born. We're born like this. Now I didn't realize at the time what he just gave to me was a Pelagian view. Hey, we're basically we our will is free because we don't have a sinful nature. Right. He basically gave me a full blown Polyagian view. He didn't even give me a Semipleagian view. He basically like, we come out pure, we come out innocent. And I'm like, no, no, no, we're born like this piece of paper all crumbled up up.

23:00 We're messed up. We have a sinful nature. We are corrupt from the inside. If anything from the inside is corrupt by us. Now, at the time, I had no idea that this would be setting me up for Calvinism. But this is really the distinction, right, because if you believe man has complete free will, well then you've got to around you. You got to somehow keep the will away from the depravity. If depravity is there and it impacts the will, then the will is not free because it is influenced limited by that corruption, that sinfulness inside of us. Right. That means the sinful nature is going to impact the will. If the will is completely free, it can't be impacted by anything, Right. So I was like, no, we're all we're like this, We're born like this. We're completely corrupted and there's nothing we can do. God has to do it because we're sinners. So that was kind of like and then I kind of left everything there.

23:55 And then the next thing you know, I'm in the United States military. I find myself in Germany and then I meet a Southern Baptist and we have this back and forth debate over baptism and then that's when I'm like, man, I just you're right. I can't support infant baptism with scripture alone. I can't do it. So when I get back to the States, instead of going to a Southern Baptist church, I find myself and an independent fundamental Baptist church. Now what I am taught is I am a sinner. I'm depraved, but my will inside of me is somehow isolated from that depravity, so that the will remains free.

24:37 You are totally depraved, but your will is isolated, separated from that depravity, so your will is completely free, all right, So that's kind of what they taught me. Well that's the first school. Well, yeah, that's the first school I think. I think I started Grace University in Omaha, Nebraska. Before I started the Bible, I was going to like three schools at the same time. I was going to Grace Universe City, I was going to Twin Cities Baptist Bible Institute, and I was a student at Harold Camping if you know anything about Hero Camping Family Radio School, the Bible. Three schools, and I was in the military full time a right, So three schools taking full classes, full everything. Yeah, it was. It was. I don't know how I did any of this, but so what happened is at Greace University, I wasn't having any classes really about soteiology. I was taking classes on world religion, classes on uh, I think church history, on Genesis, so I really wasn't getting into a lot of soteriological issues. And then our Genesis class just fell into this never ending debate over the philosophy.

25:42 At time, it was it was, it was insane, Okay. So the Bible Institute was teaching me this kind of it's not a kind of not fully a Pelagian. If you're kind of a semi Pelagian, well you're free, but you're not free. I mean, you're will Is free, but you're a sinner. And it was really kind of idea. But they definitely told me Calvinism bad. Calvinism bad. Okay, Calvinism bad to me. If you're a Calvinist, you're basically you're you're lost, Basically you're going to hell. It's a false religion, okay, And I'm like, whoa, Okay, this is pretty serious. At the same time, a family radio School of the Bible with Carold Camping. This is before he lost his mind before nineteen ninety four in the church was coming to an end and leave your church. Before all of that, he was just basically, you know, reformed, right.

26:27 And so I started learning about quote unquote Calvinism. Again, I don't like the term, but I was learning about God's sovereign grace and salvation. And it was my daughter's first birthday. I think it's her first birthday or second birthday. There's a big party at our house. There's video of this, and there's video like all the women are in the kitchen and there's a lot of the little kids and you know, la la lah, And then the camera kind of goes through and you see the living room. You see me surrounded by stacks of books because I always had books. And there's some men of the church and we're discussing Calvinism and I'm approaching it like, well, hey, what about I mean, I know, if we're sinners, don't doesn't impact our nature And if our nature is not free, then God's going to have to do it. We can't do it our own. Are we just free to have faith?

27:20 And does God predestinate us? Does God choose us? And they didn't really do much arguing. They did just more listening, and I wasn't necessarily arguing for Calvinism. It was more like, Hey, this is what I'm studying in school, So what about this? What about this? What about this? What about this? So the party's over, It's all good. I get a phone call from the pastor from the Independent Fundamental Baptist Church where I'm a student in their Bible Institute, and I'm like, you need to come to the church. We need to have a meeting. And I'm like, about what he would not tell me? So I get in the car, drive completely unprepared, walk through the front door of the church, go into the pastor's office. And when I walk into the office, guess who is sitting in the office. The men who were at the birthday party. And they went straight to the pastor and reported me as being a Calvinist.

28:14 And the next thing you know, I was kicked out of the Bible Institute. And well then it's a long story of everything that happened. But what was frustrating in that meeting is every time the pastor started talking about Calvinism, he demonstrated he didn't actually understand it, he was misrepresenting it. I kept trying to correct his misrepresentation, which only then made it look like I was defending Calvinism, which I really wasn't defending Calvinism. I was defending his misrepresentation of it. Like I, whether you believe it or don't believe it, talk about it correctly, right. So then, so then I finally could get back in the Bible Institute if I agreed to this really ridiculous statement, God elects according to foreknowledge, Okay, I will agree. So I agreed, I graduated, I got ordained.

29:00 I ended up leaving that church and was ordained in another church. But that's a long story how that all went down. But which is just a ridiculous statement, because what they really mean is God chooses according to foreseen faith. In other words, God looks through time you are going to choose him, so then he chooses you, which doesn't even make any sense. If I'm choosing him, why is he choosing me? The whole thing is just it just just it just becomes maddening. So all of that now, by this point, now I'm a committed Calvinist, the whole tulip. I agree with all of it. Everything, I'm right there with it. I'm right there with every all all the letters of the tulip I am committed. And now I'm like an on fire Calvinist. Calvinism is true and everything else is wrong, and like and I'm only going to go to a church that's Calvinistic and man so Calvinism.

29:51 I was very very very very very very much committed to it. And then I was very much evolved in the kind of the young refine formed restless movement and the resurgence of reform theology, and I was going to fight a hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith and their view on soutariology, obviously, which would be Calvinistic. And then yes, I mean my church was. I mean I moved it from I mean the people at the time didn't know what reform theology was, didn't know what calvin they didn't know anything. So I just slowly led them to the understanding of Calvinism without ever mentioning Calvinism. We just did a verse by verse study of the Gospel of John. We spent what four years in the Gospel of John, and by the time it was over, I'm like, Okay, here's this thing called Calvinism, and they're like, well we agree with that. Well, okay, yeah, now you do, because we've gone through scripture to try to demonstrate it.

30:41 But I never mentioned Calvinism. I just taught the idea of, well, we're totally depraved, we cannot do anything, and God sovereignly chooses us because we would never choose him, because we're dead in our trespasses. It's I taught about Pelagianism and semi Paalagianism and how I believe that those were erroneous, heretical views of mankind and that we're totally depraved and therefore God's gonna salvation is a work of God. Faith is a gift given to us, et cetera, et cetera, which led to a Calvinistic view. So that was kind of my where how I got there. Now what happened is over the years, I just started watching all of the never ending fights Calvinists, non Calvinists, Calvinists, nonunt fight, fight, fight, fight, fight, are argue, church splits, church splits, fight, fight, fight, deceptive things where a pastor comes in, doesn't tell the church that he's actually a Calvinist, and then manipulates move Sunday school teachers out of positions so that they can take over the church and make it. Some just saw a lot of stuff, and finally I was like, oh man, that that's when I became more disillusioned with a team, and a theological team. I'm a kid. A lot of this is just drives me mad. So here's what I want to do. Here's what I want to do. I want to step back, and I want to approach this in kind of a different light. Now to the emailer, by all means you can go by. You can get the Calvinist books, you can get the non Calvinist books.

32:13 You can look at all the scriptures that seem to support Calvinistic understanding of soutariology, and you can find all the scriptures that seem to argue against the Calvinistic understanding of soteriology. I don't know if you're where you're ever going to end up, but here's what I want you to do. I want you to take a deep breath and step back, and here's what I want you to consider. Whether you hold to Calvinism, whether you hold to non Calvinism, this is where you're going to end up. A person is saved by putting faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. A person is not saved who does not put their faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ. So, in a Calvinistic system or in a non Calvinistic system, salvation is depend on putting faith in Jesus Christ. That's what it is. That person is lost they haven't put their faith in Jesus Christ. That person is saved, they put their faith in Jesus Christ. You can fight Calvinism all day, but the end result, who is saved those who believe, who's not saved? Those who don't believe. You can argue Calvinism all day, but whether you're a Calvinist or not a Calvinist, everyone agrees. Who is saved, ladies and gentlemen, those who believe, who's not saved? Those who don't believe. So when it comes down to it, then what's the job of the Calvinist or the non Calvinists to take the Gospel to those who don't believe and call them to faith in Jesus Christ. It doesn't matter if you're a Calvinist or non Calvinist. Who's saved those

33:45 who believe, who's not saved those who don't believe? What is the job of the Calvinist and the non Calvinists take the Gospel to everyone and call them to believe the end. Now, the rest of the debate is, wait a minute, then, what's the process in and how someone becomes saved? Who's responsible for them becoming saved? And why is someone not saved? Like now, you get into these questions, but at the end, no matter how you add, no matter how you answer these questions, you can argue all day, well, it's God, No, it's man, it's God. God did it? Man did it? Predestination non predestination. You can argue all day. Guess what when it comes down to the end, who is saved those who believe? Who is not saved? Those who don't believe? So what should you do? Worry about those who don't believe. Now you can debate all the other things. Obviously, I love theology, so I'm all for having those conversations, But when it comes down to it, when it's over, you're gonna end up in the same place.

34:45 At the core, at the very core, Calvinist and non Calvinists agree that salvation is through faith in Jesus Christ, and both views those who genuinely believe in Christ are considered save and those who reject him remain lost. The key difference lies in how they interpret the process by which a person comes to believe, whether by God's sovereign choice and what's labeled sometimes as irresistible grace. Right, and again that doesn't mean it's irresistible grace. Is we can get into some people say you can resist it. You can resist it until the effectual calling versus the general calling.

35:30 We could get into all of the distinction, but you get the idea. So basically, the key difference lies in how they interpret the process by which a person comes to believe, whether by God's sovereign choice and irresistible grace Calvinism, or by human free will to accept or reject God's offer of grace, which is the non Calvinistic perspective. So in the Calvinistic perspective, God is the one who does the saving and the not in the calvinistic view, God is the one doing the saving, and the non calvinistic I know they would never say this, they would never say it's me doing the saving. But in the calvinistic view, God is the one who does everything he's got to, you know, regenerate, you resurrect you, grant you faith, grant you the change of mind. God, it's all God. In the non Calvinistic view, the message is preached and the person changes their mind. The person believes. See. In the Calvinistic view, the change of mind and the faith is God giving that to them. It's God's gift. And the non Calvinistic view you do it on your own, which then leads you to well, then his man depraved or not depraved. That's why typically in the non Calvinistic view you end up with some form of Pallagianism, which I completely reject. See there's all these different layers to it. Now, despite these differences, the conclusion is the same. Faith in christis essential for salvation and rejecting of him. Rejection of

37:03 Him results in being lost. That's what I want you to see. You can argue about how no, it's God, No, it's Man. He did it. God did it. You can argue all about it, but in the end, who's saved those who believe? Who's lost those who don't believe? So you can see, sometimes you have to ask yourself all the debating, where do you end up? Well, guess where you end up? Who saved? Those who believe, who isn't saved those who don't believe. Now, the reason the non Calvinist wants to kind of remove God from the equation, at least to some level, is because they feel like it turns God. It makes God look evil. It looks like, no, God wants everyone to be saved. God desires everyone to be saved. Now, of course they're quoting from Peter, which we could look at the verse, but okay, that their view is. Wait, if you say that God doesn't want everyone saved, that makes God evil, and that makes God mean, and that makes we've got to get God off the hook. Right, So, hey, no, the problem is you your free will. It's not God, it's your free will. And the Calvinist says, no, no, no, no, you want the credit for it. You're trying to take credit for your salvation. God gets the credit for the salvation.

38:15 So in a roundabout way, both sides are in a sense trying to protect God, right right, Hey, no, no, no, don't blame God for people being lost. It's man's free will. Get God off the hook. The calvinisty is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, how dare you steal God's glory. How dare you take credit? It's God who did it. Both sides are trying to protect God. But in the end, who saved those who believed in those who are not saved. But let me make it very clear. All the attempts to try to somehow protect God, they all ultimately fall apart. Because I want you to think about this, whether in a Calvinistic system, whether in a non Calvinistic system, go all the way back to the beginning. See, my struggle is not with Calvinism and non Calvinism. My struggle is with Genesis one.

39:22 One genus is one one which reads in the beginning God. And that's where all of my philosophical problems begin. That's where my mind begins to unravel in the beginning God. So let's go all the way back, and I want you to show you that non Calvinist are trying to get God off the hook. You can't get God off the hook, ladies and gentlemen, because in the beginning God. So in the beginning there is God. He's already there. What do we know about the God who's already there. He's omniscient, he knows everything from the beginning to the end. Oh, now now we got a problem. Oh, and he's omnipotent.

40:05 He's all powerful, he's omniscient, he's omnipotent. But what happens. God creates a being referenced as Lucifer or Satan. He creates this angelic being, knowing that angelic being is going to rebel. That angelic being rebels. God is omnipotent. He could destroy him, kill him and just wipe him away, get rid of any rebellious angels and just stop everything right there, it's stop it, just stop it. He could contain it, stop it and eliminate it. But no, no, no, no, no, no no, he does not do that. He allows this fallen angelic being to come to Earth to go after Adam and Eve, whom God created, knowing that Adam and Eve was going to rebel and going to sin. But what does he do? Does he stop it? Does he prevent the very thing that's going to bring the temptation into the garden. No, he opens up the door and says, come on in, Satan, And Satan comes in using the form of a serpent, and teep and tips Eve and they sin. Adam and Eve both sin. Now at that point God knew that was going to happen even before he created them. Yet he created them. Now Satan has sinned, Adam is sin, Eve is sin. At every point, he's omnipotent.

41:19 He's just he's holy. He could destroy it all. Stop, he could contain the disease, he could stop it from spreading. The end, stop it all right here, Satan, you're gone, Adam, you're gone, Eve, You're gone. It's all done. And don't tell me he needed something, because God is perfect in himself. He didn't need anything. There's perfect fellowship amongst the Trinity. He's good to go. But what does he do? Oh no, no, no, no no. He lets them leave the garden. He's like, take this new contagion that you are infected with, and just walk out of the garden. And now here the world is impacted by the fall, everything creation, everything now is impacted. And they bring their contagion of sin and to the world. They have two children, Cain and Abel.

42:03 What happens murder? Why does murder happen? Well, because they are sinners. Oh wait, and then Satan he just lets him leave the garden and the serpent is punished. Satan can just go do wherever he wants. Satan is roaming about. He doesn't get rid of satan. He doesn't get rid of sin, and he lets it continue and it spreads, and it spreads and it gets so bad, and it gets so bad he wipes everyone off the earth except for the people in the ark. But guess what. The people in the ark have the same contagion sin and they get off the ark and boom, next thing you know, people are drunk, no clothes, and then boom sins and sins and sins and sin, sins. God knew it was going to happen. So you can say, well, man's free will, man's free will. Well who gave free will? God? Who knew what was going to happen to free will? God?

42:50 God knew how many people would reject, how many people would die, how many people would go to hell, and he did nothing to stop it. So even if you hold free will, it still goes back to God. So either you have a God who decrees everything to happen, or you have a God who's just sitting back going I didn't decree any of this that happened, but I'm not going to do anything to stop it. I'm just going to let it happen. No matter what you do, you can't get God off the hook. You can't get God off the hook. There is a significant theological tension that both Calvinist and non Calvinists face. Regardless of the view one holds, both ultimately wrestle with the fact that God, who is omniscient and omnipotent, created a world where he knew sin would enter humanity. He knew sin would enter, He knew humanity would fall, and that some would reject him and be lost. He knew it from the beginning.

43:49 These people are going to be saved. These people are going to be lost. Sin is going to enter into the world. He knew from the beginning what was going to happen. Non Calvinists may emphasize human responsibility and free will and rejecting or accepting God's offer of salvation, but this does not eliminate God's foreknowledge of every individual's ultimate decision or his choice to create a world where these outcomes would unfold. Calvinist, on the other hand, see God's sovereignty in a more direct way, believing that everything, including who would believe or not, unfolds according to his eternal decrees at the very core Both perspectives acknowledged that God allowed or ordained a reality where sin, rebellion, and the potential for eternal separation from Him would exist and does exist.

44:41 This means that at the very least, God knowingly created a world in which these tragic possibilities were real. Whether God merely permitted the events to unfold are directly decreed them. Both views affirm that none of it occurs outside of His knowledge or allowance, and other words, neither side Calvinist or non Calvinists can escape the thiological implication that God created a world with a specific outcome in mind, even if he provided humanity with real agency, or if he determined every event in advance, no matter which way you go, free will non free will, God is the one who allowed it, created it, knowing exactly what was going to happen.

45:27 He knew it. This shared foundation often brings both Calvinists and non Calvinists perspectives to a similar conclusion. God's purpose in creation and redemption remains mysterious and complex, balancing his sovereignty with human responsibility or accountability. The bottom line is, if you're like I don't like predestination because you want to get God off the hook. But you can't get God off the hook. God's on. There's no way to remove God from this. He knew everything in the beginning. God, he's there, and then the next word created. Well, the minute he creates, he knows exactly what he's creating. He knows exactly what's going to happen. He knows exactly how many people are dying, going to go to hell. And he does either he and if you say, well, he gave free will, he's the one who gave free will knowing that this many people are gonna die and burn in hell. And he said, well, he didn't want robots.

46:27 Why not. It's not like he needed robots or non robots. He didn't need anything. Well, he wanted people to love him on their own. What does it even mean. He doesn't need anybody's love. He's perfect in himself. So his need for love is your explanation for why millions upon millions of people burn in hell. I mean, like, that's that's the most God needs my love freely. That's why he makes it so all these people can go to hell. That's that's I don't think that helps their answers any problem. See the bottom line, is when it comes to Calvinism, predestination, non predestination, you're gonna end up with the same thing.

47:14 Who saved those who believed, who's not saved those who don't believe? What of both? Whether you're a Calvinist or a non Calvinist, What does the world need. They need to hear the Gospel. They need to hear that they're a sinner and that their only hope is in the finished work of Jesus Christ, and by faith alone, his imputed righteousness is accredited to their account, and they stand before God holy not because of what they do, but because of what He does. That's what we can agree on. You can get into all these little debates no no, no free will. No free will. Now, just remember if you get into the free will argument, because if you reject Calvinism, you're going to the free will argument. Just remember, for the will to be free either, there is no depravity in man. So you go with full bloom Pallagianism, go with some weird idea that the will is actually free from the depravity. And if the will is free from the depravity, that means people freely can choose to be perfect. If the will is completely free. Then everyone could freely choose to be perfect and to keep God's law with or without God, because the will is free.

48:19 If the will is free before salvation, then the will is free after salvation. That means people who have a free will can freely choose to be perfect and keep God's law perfectly. No one's ever accomplished. That would put forth great argument that no one has free will, because if you have free will, you could freely just choose to obey God. If you can't obey God, what's keeping you from doing so? Well, then you're not free. See, the non Calvinist view requires a free will. Understanding what the will is. I can test the will being free, okay, just keep God's law perfectly. You can't whether then your will is not free the end But to me, we can get into all of these arguments, but the end result is Calvinist, non Calvinist. Who's saved? Those who believe?

49:05 Who's not saved? Those who don't believe? What do they need the gospel? Now it'll get into like, but why bring the gospel to the person they may not be the elect? And why bring the gospel to that person they may not believe it's just who can just bring the Gospel to everyone and who believes believes? If you want to get into these never ending disputes, you just get nowhere. See people worry about God's predestination and soteriology, right, that's where everybody gets worried about. Well wait a minute, forget God's predestination and soteriology. God created a world knowing all this was going to happen. So if his knowledge proceeds it happening, isn't it then has to happen according to his knowledge. Well that's a that's a deep question.

49:57 But the point is he knew it was going to happen and allows it to happen. And then you either God is not controlling it or God is controlling it. And these have deeper issues than salvation. This is how everything else happens in the world. Now, Yeah, are there scriptures that mention this concept? Well, we have this. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord, Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with spiritual blessings and heavenly places in Christ, according as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame. Before him in love, having predestinated us onto the adoption of children. But then other people would say, for you know, go to other scriptures. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believed on him should not perish by to have everlasting life. God desires all to repent and believe. And of course that's ripping that versal very much out of context, but you get the idea. So everyone will go to their scriptures and they'll debate, and they'll debate. But guess where it ends. As I stated now multiple times, who saved those who believed? Who's not saved those who don't believe? What do the people who don't believe need the gospel? This issue of God's sovereignty and his predestination and his knowledge, this goes all the way back to Genesis one. And listen, both sides are trying to protect God. Right. The non Calvinists is saying, look, look, I'm not going to blame God for one of these

51:27 people don't believe, or why some people believe in some people don't. No, no, no, that's horrible. So I got to get God off the hook. And then the Calvinists is like, how dare you steal from God's glory? God gets the glory. You're not going to take any credit. Will Both sides try to protect God. I understand that desire. But ladies and gentlemen, you go all the way back to Genesis one. One. There's no getting God off the hook. There's nine, there's nine. The gospel is to be offered to everyone. It's to be preached everywhere to everyone. Those who believe are saved, those who reject are not. Now we can get into a lengthy discussion about well, why why do they believe?

52:24 Why did they not believe? Now? My personal belief, yeah, I hold to a calvinistic view. I hold to a calvinistic view because I reject Pallagianism. I believe that the will is not completely free. The will is not free because if the will was free, I could just choose to be holy. Even as a saved person. My will is not free, or I could just choose to be holy. There's something still impacting my will. It's my sinful nature. Well, because my sinful nature is there, then I know I need God to do the saving. God has to choose me. God has to save me. God has to grant me faith. God has to grant me the change of mind. Now, I know that's not a perfect answer. You said, well, which one should you believe? I'm not telling you which one to believe. I'm just telling you that when you It's like with limited atonement, people can get an argument.

53:21 Did Christ die for everyone? Or did he only die for the elefe No, he died for every single person. No, he only died for the elect. Would everyone calm down? Who saved those who believe? Who? Is Christ's death sufficient for everyone who believes? Yes, for everyone believes Christ died paid for their sins? Okay, if Christ died for the sins of everyone in the world, are they all saved? Well, no, only those who believe. So we can argue about did Christ die for everyone? Or did Christ only die for the elect? You can have that argument all day. But the end result, who saved those who believe? Who's not saved those who don't believe? There's no sug Well that person believes, Well, Jesus didn't die for them. Nobody would say that for everyone who believes he died for But no, he died for everyone in the world. You can say that but he died and paid for the sins of everyone in the world. Is everyone saved? No, okay, So then him dying for everyone in the world doesn't accomplish anything.

54:24 It only makes salvation. I guess you could say possible. But the point is is anyone who believes can be saved, everyone believes that, Calvinist or non Calvinists. Anyone who believes it will be saved, not can be, will be. And if they are saved, then obviously Christ paid for their sins and died for their sins. So you get into these deep questions when you really boil it down, what does it come down to that person believes, well, praise God, he saved. Christ died for him. His sins have been removed as far as the ess from the west, his sins have been forgiven, has been covered in the blood of Jesus Christ. Righteousness has been imputed to his account. He stands before God holy, imperfect, even though in practical, everyday life he's still a sinner. So I think a lot of the disputes just distract us. Now, as a good Bible student, whenever you're studying the Bible and you come across passages that seem to go one way or the other. Yeah, then you have to deal with the issue.

55:33 You have to deal with the issue as far as the text is concerned. But just note, no matter how you can deal with the text, however you deal with it, there's going to be another side that's going to disagree with you using the exact same text, which can be maddening. Now, am I saying ignore all theological disputes. I'm not saying that. Sometimes you just got to step back and reduce it and go Okay, no matter which way I go on this debate, where do I end up? Let me repeat it now, for like the five hundredth time, in this debate, where do you end up? Who's saved those who believe, who's not saved those who don't believe? What do those who don't believe need the gospel? What happens if they believe they will be saved? Who's the elect who's the chosen those who believe? Who are those not chosen? Or elect those who don't believe? Well, that's not fair. Well, guess what's going to be the end result, Whether they're chosen not chosen, whether it's free will or not free will?

56:51 That they're going to go to the same hell. Now you may make you feel better that God gets off the hook, but again, God's the one who gave the free will, knowing that that person was going to use the free will not to believe and burn in hell, yet allow them to be born and be created. I mean, no matter how you look at it, God still involved in it. He either knew it was going to happen, or he decreed it to happen. Unless you go with open theism, and now God doesn't know, and now you begin to systematically destroy God as being God, which you end up to a different problem. The email question is great, My answer to it is not so great because it kind of leaves you with, well, so what's the right answer I think in this particular case. I mean, you know, I'm obviously a Calvinist. I hold that that view right, But it goes more to I reject Pelagianism semi plagianism because I can I can tangibly prove that a will is not free. I can prove that right. If you tell me the will is free, then I'll just say, well, then be be holy as God is holy, and keep all of his commandments. Well I know you're not gonna do that. You can't do that, so you're going to fail.

58:06 So then your will is not free the end. Okay, So all right, I can already disprove that. Now that then leads me to the idea of total depravity. And if I'm totally depraved, then I cannot save myself. Then faith is and faith is a gift from God. Okay, then I'm gonna lead to a more calvinistic viewpoint. But the bottom of line is whether you're a Calvinist or not a Calvinist. I'm gonna say it again, where do we end up. Who's saved, the person who believes, who's not saved, the person who rejects. What does the person reject need the gospel? Who should the Gospel go to every single person? And whosoever believes shall be saved. The Calvinists will say that person believes because God guarranted them the faith. The non Calvinists will say that person believed because they chose to believe on their own free will.

58:57 But the bottom line is the person is saying by belief. Now, there may be times when we come to a certain text where I think to reject the calvinistic understanding, you know, creates other problems. But there's probably times that we come to a certain text non Calvinists would say, well, if you interpret that in a Calvinistic way, that creates other biblical interpretive problems. Every side's going to claim that. So there you go fifty nine minutes. I don't know if that was helpful. I don't know if it was beneficial.

59:43 I know it's probably not the answer you wanted. But I wasn't going to come here with a full like I'm going to defend Calvinism or or I'm going to argue against Calvinism. I just want you to show that when you boil it down, you kind of end up in the same place. And no matter how much you want to get God off the hook, there's no getting God off the hook none. Because he was there in the beginning, knowing exactly what was going to happen, and having the power to stop it or allow it. That's a million miles away from even getting to whether he decreed it and guiding it and controlling it. Just the fact that he has the power to stop it and knew it was going to happen and set everything in motion and did nothing to stop it. That's the thing that should keep you up at night, because I don't know that I'll never truly understand that. All right, I hope this is beneficial to some. I know the Calvinists are going to be mad at me, the non Calvinists are going to be mad at me. Everyone's going to be mad at me. That's great. But the end result, ladies and gentlemen, is who's saved those who believe, who's not saved those who don't believe? Who did Christ die for those who are saved? Okay? Because Christ's death for those who are not saved is of no value to them because they're going to go to hell even though that he died for. So whether you believe in limited or unlimited atonement, you still end up with these same issues.

1:01:04 So all right, thanks for listening. Everyone, have a great night. God bless