How Top Recruiters Keep Billing When Hiring Freezes

Benjamin Mena [00:00:00]:
The 30-day BD challenge kicks off February 9th in the Elite Recruiter community. This was the most awesome sales and BD summit yet, but here's the thing. Now is the time for action. We are kicking off on February 9th, a 30-day BD challenge to start putting everything into action. Whether you need a little bit of help in the BD side, or you just need the accountability, join the Elite Recruiter community. And join us for the BDD Challenge because I want 2026 to be the year that you crush it. This is your year. Own it.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:34]:
Coming up on this episode of the Elite Recruiter Podcast. Just a few years ago, you started recruiting.

Sean Rigsby [00:00:40]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:40]:
What was those first few days like?

Sean Rigsby [00:00:43]:
Pain. I remember when I went to my boss and I said, hey, I want to give my notice and I'm thinking about— want to start my own company and maybe I just explained it wrong because all of a sudden he's looking at me, he's going, what? Welcome to the Elite Recruiter Podcast with.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:59]:
Your host Benjamin Mena, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership, and placements. Admin is a massive waste of time. That's why there's Atlas, the AI-first recruitment platform built for modern agencies. It doesn't only track resumes and and calls. It remembers everything, every email, every interview, every conversation, instantly searchable, always available. And now it's entering a whole new era with Atlas 2.0. You can ask anything and it delivers.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:34]:
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Benjamin Mena [00:02:09]:
Atlas is your personal AI partner for modern recruiting. Don't miss the future of recruitment. Get started with Atlas today and unlock your exclusive listener offer at recruitwithatlas.com. I am so excited about this episode. The reason is, is because there are things outside of your control that you cannot change. But the question is, what do you do with the time, energy, and effort that you have when you deal with those things? And my guess today for this episode, we're talking about things on a national level, things that go through Congress, things that go through the Senate, things that go through the presidential desk that has a direct impact on his business. And there's a few things that he could do. He could freeze, just be like, hey, let me figure out what happens with the market.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:56]:
Let me just like stop doing it. Maybe just like, you know, pull back. Or you can figure out where you can still win. And that's what he's absolutely doing. I saw his open rec load. He has, from everything that's happening on the news level, I thought his desk was going to be like empty. No, he is busy as heck. And it's because of the work that he's doing.

Benjamin Mena [00:03:16]:
So Sean, I am so excited to have you on the podcast, buddy.

Sean Rigsby [00:03:20]:
Hey, thanks a lot, Ben. I really appreciate the chance to catch up. I've been following you for a while. Love the show.

Benjamin Mena [00:03:26]:
So real quick before we get started, like a little bit about yourself.

Sean Rigsby [00:03:31]:
Sure. Name is Sean Riggsby. I head up a firm here in Connecticut called Riggsby Search Group. Been a recruiter for 32 years. I focus on the environmental industry, you know, consulting firms and stuff. Have placed a little more than 900 consultants in my career and, you know, work pretty much nationally. Perfect.

Benjamin Mena [00:03:50]:
Awesome. So that goes in the next question. How did you end up in this wonderful world of recruiting, the land of misfit toys?

Sean Rigsby [00:03:57]:
The land of misfit toys. So I'm probably, that's a perfect segue for who I am. I came into this industry by accident, like pretty much everyone. I have an electronics background. My father had a vending machine company. So when I was in high school, I was the kid who had all the Pac-Man stuff in the garage. And I probably spent more time in the garage than doing my books. And, you know, I was taking apart circuit boards, all that kind of goofy stuff.

Sean Rigsby [00:04:21]:
And then I kind of went down that path and got into office equipment. And so I was repairing office equipment and selling supplies, and I was pretty much the world's— the worst technician in Connecticut. I couldn't fix a thing. And my wife still laughs about it because I don't— I don't fix a thing in my house. I'm like, okay, go call so-and-so because I don't have no idea what the hell I'm doing. But customers love me. Then all of a sudden, you know, like after 6, 7 years, I got laid off. You know, and I'll be honest, I'm surprised I lasted that long.

Sean Rigsby [00:04:54]:
In all honesty, guy, I would— when I say I was bad, I would leave parts on a copy or leave screws. And they're like, there's some screws on my machine. Is this okay?

Benjamin Mena [00:05:05]:
Don't worry about it. Those are extra ones I brought, right?

Sean Rigsby [00:05:07]:
Extra, extra. Don't even give it a second thought. And so then I got let go. Obviously, we're talking— this is '93 now and no internet. You know, everyone kind of looked at newspapers for stuff. And I interviewed through a couple of recruiting firms for similar jobs, had a couple of offers. Just, you know, I was burnt out. I was fairly newly married, just bought a house.

Sean Rigsby [00:05:31]:
I didn't want to travel anymore. And then I saw an ad for a recruiter and I'm like, okay, I could do better than the person I was talking to, I think, you know. And so then I interviewed at a couple of places and I got hired by a company in Hartford. They were probably one of the largest at that time, probably the largest agency, privately held agency in Connecticut. But I went through a couple of interviews and I didn't hear anything and I'm not making any money. And so all of a sudden I just go ahead and call up there and I go, hey, this is Sean Riggsby. Hi, how you doing? You interviewed me a couple of weeks ago. Wanted to see if you made a decision, blah, blah, blah.

Sean Rigsby [00:06:12]:
Oh yeah. Yeah, I was gonna give you a call. We wanna offer you the job. Now, whether or not that's the truth and, or maybe he's just like, I feel bad for this guy. But he liked the initiative that, you know, I called and he said the other thing, my first interview was a snowstorm and my wife is like, reschedule. I'm going, I'm not gonna be that guy.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:34]:
A snowstorm.

Sean Rigsby [00:06:35]:
Yeah. My first interview and I, I, I left like it was only 20 miles away, but I probably left 2 hours early so I could get up there and stuff. Wow. And, uh, yeah, they hired me and my boss wound up being like one of my best friends and biggest mentor. Unfortunately, he's no longer with us, but, uh, yeah, that's how I got hired.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:56]:
Okay. So we're looking at a few years ago, just a few years ago, you started recruiting.

Sean Rigsby [00:07:01]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:07:01]:
What was those first few days like?

Sean Rigsby [00:07:03]:
Pain. It was, so it was essentially 3 days of training, you know, probably 2 and a half days watching Tony Byrne tapes. And that's kind of how I grew up. And it was just like pounding into you, this is a phone business guy. You know, everyone was a full, back then they just trained you as a full desk. And after 2 and a half days, they send you into a desk. Okay, plan your day and let me see that. I have no freaking idea what what the hell I'm doing and stuff.

Sean Rigsby [00:07:33]:
And the guy who started with me quit the very next day. I think he went into insurance, who the hell knows. And it was, okay, does this look good, this plan? And they're like, okay. And it's just pounding the phone and minimum 50, 70 calls a day. I was typically averaging around 70, give or take. Had to be on the phone 4.5, 5 hours. That was the goal. And they told you you have to have a placement within 3 months.

Sean Rigsby [00:08:02]:
You know, we have to see something. We're, you know, tracking KPIs. And they did ongoing training, which I like, but, you know, I'm one who needs to at least have an idea what numbers I need to hit. You know, tell me what you want me to do and I'll do it. So it was good that we had KPIs, but all of a sudden I didn't make my first placement until week 12. So I'm like, oh crap, I get I was telling my wife halfway through, I'm going, I think I got to find another job because I really suck at this.

Benjamin Mena [00:08:31]:
And this is like a placement that you had to go find the customer, find the client, and also fill it yourself.

Sean Rigsby [00:08:37]:
Yeah, because the segue before that, because my background was electronics, they had me doing like light industrial or manufacturing and I just hated it. I just, you know, I don't know, maybe they sensed that I really wasn't cut out for that. And they're like, hey, there's a market that's really growing, would you be interested in doing environmental? And I'm like, sure, you know, you know, you're going to run through a wall. I didn't even know what environmental was. I couldn't even spell it.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:05]:
And wait, so they didn't even have an environmental division?

Sean Rigsby [00:09:10]:
No.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:11]:
And you haven't made a placement yet? You're still in your first like 12 weeks?

Sean Rigsby [00:09:15]:
Yes.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:15]:
And they wanted you to go start a brand new Division.

Sean Rigsby [00:09:20]:
Correct. But yeah, so I had to figure out what the hell environmental was. I had no idea what environmental companies or what an environmental person— yeah, I thought maybe I ticked someone off and they dumped me in a black hole and just wanted to get rid of me.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:37]:
I mean, that's a great way to get rid of you. It was like, hey, if you don't make a placement in 3 months, hey, you know what, we're going to put you in a brand new division, so you got to start over Again.

Sean Rigsby [00:09:48]:
Exactly. But yes, yeah, I was going to the library. There was a library near my office, so I would just go to the library and take out books on what an environmental consultant is, what's a geologist. What helped me is I found different associations that gave me a little bit of a head start. What environmental associations, geology or geologists or engineers. I, you know, asked to join those organizations or buy the directories and just started again working my way through all the way to Z.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:24]:
Okay. Real quick pause there. Were you getting a salary there?

Sean Rigsby [00:10:27]:
Ooh. Salary was, now this is Just say it's a '93. yes.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:33]:
Yeah. Don't worry about the how much.

Sean Rigsby [00:10:34]:
$12,000, $13,000.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:35]:
Okay. So you were getting a salary.

Sean Rigsby [00:10:37]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:37]:
When you saw those directories, you're like, hey, this could be the way in. Did they buy it for you? Did you have to buy it yourself?

Sean Rigsby [00:10:42]:
I think they, they bought it. Yeah, they signed me up for a subscription.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:46]:
Okay, so they at least say they.

Sean Rigsby [00:10:47]:
Helped a little bit.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:48]:
I was like, oh man, I thought they were like, let's drop you in a new division, you have to buy all your own stuff, like you're on your own. Like, we cannot wait to get rid of this Sean guy, dude.

Sean Rigsby [00:10:57]:
We can write it off.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:59]:
Tax write-off. Okay, so back into your first year. So Wait, with that, hey, here's 3 days or 2 days of watching a video, 1 day of being on the phone. They dropped you, dropped you literally in a mosh pit, you know, with the pit to like attack the phones. Did they do that with everybody else? Like how many people do you think they hired that year?

Sean Rigsby [00:11:19]:
Funny you ask. So I had a buddy of mine who started right around the same time and they used to keep a direct, you know, a book on who they hired then because we'd compute. And all of a sudden it was like the end of the year and we kind of looked, I started in March, my buddy started in May. And they hired about 100 people from the time in March to the end of the year. They hired 100 people. Me and 2 other guys were the only people that, you know, stayed. And so this doesn't sound like the.

Benjamin Mena [00:11:52]:
Greatest environment for success. Why did you stay?

Sean Rigsby [00:11:56]:
I'll tell you, even though that it sounds not great. They were a very good company and very reputable. The training was good. I developed some pretty good relationships and I was there for 19 years, Ben. Definitely liked the people. I started kind of seeing some success. I didn't know any better. So, you know how they say ignorance is bliss? So I just said, hey, let me, let me grind it out.

Sean Rigsby [00:12:20]:
And I'll tell you, that first year was a struggle. I mean, I barely made any money. Thank God my wife was working.

Benjamin Mena [00:12:27]:
So like, what was one of the biggest things that you had to overcome that first year?

Sean Rigsby [00:12:33]:
Just, I mean, the biggest thing was just trying to get people on the phone. Learning how to be a recruiter is hard enough. Learning something that is just, I never heard of, was another thing. And it was just, there were so many ups and downs. My W-2, I mean, just getting by. I had bought a house. My W-2 that first year was only $16,000. And I, you know, I was working at a liquor store.

Sean Rigsby [00:12:58]:
I was Rookie of the Year. My billings were about $60,000, I think, give or take. And I was their rookie. I was the Rookie of the Year at the company. But yeah, I, I wasn't making any money. Like I said, my wife was working. Thank God.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:11]:
Okay, let me unpack this. You were Rookie of the Year.

Sean Rigsby [00:13:13]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:14]:
Is it because you were one of the only people that lasted? After the year?

Sean Rigsby [00:13:18]:
It could have been a combo. Yeah. There were 2 other people. There were 2 other people and that was pretty much it.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:25]:
Coin flip. All right. We'll give it to Sean.

Sean Rigsby [00:13:26]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:13:28]:
But you were also working part-time at a liquor store, but you saw light at the end of the tunnel, which is why you stayed.

Sean Rigsby [00:13:37]:
Yeah, I did like the job. I knew I could be good at the job. The first year was, it was tough. And there were a couple of times I honestly, where I'd get called into the office,, you know, not that every time I got called in the office, I'm going, okay, is this the time? Is this the day, you know, where are they gonna let me go? Not, and they didn't give that impression just because I was not being very, I was not successful. I was sounding horrible. I'd never sat at a desk or did sales before I got into this. And I'll be honest, I sounded like an idiot because there were people that were pretty successful. And so I'd kind of just listen to them.

Sean Rigsby [00:14:15]:
I go, okay, I gotta sound like him. And they'd be all sounding like polished and go, hi, my name is John Smith and I'm an executive recruiter, all that kind of thing. So I'm going, okay, I gotta sound like that. And it, I just, it sounded so fake and I just, not me. And then I'm like, I just said, oh, screw it. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna be myself. I'm loud. I say stuff inappropriate half the time.

Sean Rigsby [00:14:43]:
You know, it's just, okay, you either love me or hate me. You know, and then it kind of started clicking a little bit. I, you know, I guess people found me funny or, you know, and, you know, they kind of resonated with me. I'm kind of self-deprecating, you know, so I don't know, it just clicked. And that's with that.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:02]:
Okay, so good job on Rookie of the Year. Let's like jump forward a little more in this career because you were there for a good 19 years. Like, Yeah, like, how was your growth at that agency?

Sean Rigsby [00:15:14]:
It was good. I mean, I started probably year 3, I got close to probably $100,000, you know, dollars or so, which was more money than I'd ever seen in my life. I think the most I ever did before I got into this business was maybe $25,000, give or take. And, and then things started kind of progressing, and then I was, you know, made a non-equity partner after like 10 years. And then, you know, so I wasn't a manager. I was just pretty much, you know, a seller, doer, billing recruiter. And, you know, but I thought my progression was good. I liked— I like the people I worked with.

Sean Rigsby [00:16:00]:
I mean, I don't mean to give the wrong impression. I really enjoyed it. When I left, that kind of, you know, there was a little bit of a nuclear bomb when I left, but you know, when I decided to leave, but, but everything's all good now and stuff.

Benjamin Mena [00:16:16]:
You know, you were there for 19 years. Like you could have stayed there.

Sean Rigsby [00:16:19]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:16:20]:
Maybe forever. Like what spurred, like, or even a reason to leave?

Sean Rigsby [00:16:24]:
So it was a couple of, it was a couple of things. One is I wanted more for some reason, you know, I had people coming to me, oh, why don't you just, you know, hang out your own shingle and all that. And I'm like, nah, I'm, I'm good. I'm making good money and I have no headaches and all that. And then, you know, something just kind of clicked with me and I wanted, I needed something more. And then I saw, I went to the owner of the company and I said, hey, I'm really looking for something more. I really want to buy into the company. I want to be a real partner.

Sean Rigsby [00:16:56]:
And, you know, I was willing to fork over my own cash. And he said, let me think about it. And then he got back to me and he said, you know, I'm not ready to do that now. And I go, okay, that's fine. And then I remember we hit a big recession in '08 and we saw the company go from like 40 recruiters down to like 13 or 14. And then my billings, I remember my billings went down like more than $200,000. Than what I normally billed at. And I was still Consultant of the Year, and the next closest person was like $150,000 behind me.

Sean Rigsby [00:17:35]:
It was depressing during that time. And then I just kind of started saying to myself, you look at most people who try to hang out their own shingle, oh, I don't like to keep the money. I want to, you know, I want to, you know, it'd be nice, and I want to try things my way and all that. Because also I'd go to them and, you know, try to come up with ideas and how to make my practice better or things for the company. It was like, hey, Sean, that That sounds good. You know, let me give it some thought. It never really went anywhere. So it's like, okay, I really didn't have a voice.

Sean Rigsby [00:18:03]:
And, you know, it was like, okay, as long as Sean's billing, you know, you know, okay, good. You know, that kind of thing.

Benjamin Mena [00:18:10]:
Sean the cash cow. Okay. So I'm kind of curious, like 19 years in about the time that you left, did they change how they did recruiting and hiring? Or was it still the drop them in and watch some videos?

Sean Rigsby [00:18:26]:
After I left?

Benjamin Mena [00:18:27]:
Or like before you left? Like before?

Sean Rigsby [00:18:29]:
Okay. It was still the same. It was still the same way. Everything was kind of the same way. Yeah. We had, you know, what, you know, it was like hire a group of people, see who survived, you know, who see who makes it. And, yeah, it was pretty much like that after I left. I loved my time there.

Sean Rigsby [00:18:48]:
I wish I left early. I wish I left sooner. Not because I've had this, my business now for 13 years and I'm enjoying it most days. But, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm so glad I did, did make the switch.

Benjamin Mena [00:19:01]:
So let's jump in. So you started your own firm, right? What was that first few months like? Hey, now everything is on me.

Sean Rigsby [00:19:07]:
I kept everything very, very, very close to the vest. I didn't do anything. And then I had a person who worked with me and, and talk about feeling guilty, you know, I was planning obviously how I was going to do this. And I had some mentors helping me and giving me advice. And I didn't tell anybody anything. I didn't tell any coworkers, I didn't tell any clients. I kept everything absolutely hush-hush. I didn't even tell some family members, you know, except my immediate family.

Sean Rigsby [00:19:34]:
And then all of a sudden, one of my buddies who was one of my best, you know, best friends there, he was doing civil engineering. All of a sudden he comes to me, hey, we're, you know, I called all my clients because we've been trying to get him to do more splits with me. He goes, hey, I just want to let you know, I told all my clients I'm no longer doing civil, I'm doing environmental. I'm on board with you, Sean. And this was 3 days before I was going to get my notice. And I'm going, oh no, don't do this to me, dude, please. And I'm like, Also, I remember going to my car, I call my wife and I'm almost in tears. The guy was like a brother to me.

Sean Rigsby [00:20:14]:
I, you know, I'm like, what do I do? And ultimately I decided not to say anything. And I, but I gave my notice like the next day and because I was ready to give the notice. And then I remember when I went to my boss and I said, hey, I, you know, I'm going to, I want to give my notice and I'm thinking about I want to start my own company. And maybe I just explained it wrong because all of a sudden he's looking at me and he's going, what? And like, when? I'm like, today I'm giving you my notice. And all of a sudden we were just, you know, we had, he was like shocked. And I was like, Ben, I was that guy. You just, no way in hell would you have ever thought I would've made a move. You know, I was just very loyal.

Sean Rigsby [00:20:59]:
I've been married for 36 years. I was at that company for 19 years. I'm about as boring as it gets from that standpoint. And he's like, okay, let me think about it. And we were able to— he's like, are you still doing environmental? I go, yes. And we talked about, you know, the separation, how that would work. And ultimately it worked out and all my clients followed me. I called them.

Sean Rigsby [00:21:25]:
I remember I went home, I had a beer actually when I left. I called that guy who was a good friend. I said, hey, I got to talk to you. And then I spoke to him, he gives me a hug, he goes, you should have done it sooner, you know, that kind of thing. And, and that's a good friend, that's.

Benjamin Mena [00:21:42]:
A good friend, good work friend too.

Sean Rigsby [00:21:44]:
Yeah, no, and so my boss goes, why don't you go out to lunch, you go talk with so-and-so. And, you know, went out and, you know, it was like 11:30 and I had a beer. I go, I need a beer. I'm— yeah. And so we talked about it. We had some good laughs, went back. And I knew what the thing was. Like, all my personal— most of my personal stuff was already home.

Sean Rigsby [00:22:09]:
I was kind of slowly taking my personal stuff as the week was going on because typically when they let, you know, someone quits or they let someone go, it's just, okay, pack up your stuff. We'll walk you out. And I already had most of my desk packed up, but I had to leave some stuff there. And he's like, okay, I'm gonna walk you out and you got to come back Saturday, get your stuff. And you know what they wound up doing is they had a meeting at the office. They called everyone into the conference room at like 4 o'clock and said I left because no, you know, they were like shocked, you know. And then I even offered because I had a pretty stacked timesheet, like when people quit, you know, usually, you know, their quota is up to here and they have nothing on their hot sheet. I had a pretty stacked hot sheet and I even offered, I go, I'll tell you what, I'll close out the deals.

Sean Rigsby [00:23:05]:
You don't have to pay me. And I'll close all the deals. And he's like, no, no, no. We'll have, you know, we'll have so-and-so take care of your candidates. Like, oh, okay. All the candidates were calling me. He's like, Sean, what should I do? I'm like, Well, you got to call so-and-so. He's like, no, just can I run it by you? And so essentially I closed most of the deals and I just said, don't tell them you're talking to me, you know, that kind of thing.

Sean Rigsby [00:23:33]:
But like that first day when I got home, I had, you know, I started just banging out calls to clients, letting them know what's going on. I already had an email set up and, you know, a new work email. And I took my family out to Ruth's Chris. You know, to celebrate. And then I'm going, oh crap, I have no job. Okay, eat quick. Don't get the dessert. You know that?

Benjamin Mena [00:24:01]:
Yeah, that extra dessert over there. No, we don't want it. Don't bring the menu.

Sean Rigsby [00:24:05]:
Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, please. Wine?

Benjamin Mena [00:24:08]:
House wine? Get rid of the wine list.

Sean Rigsby [00:24:12]:
Yeah, I'll— I'm drinking water. Thank you.

Benjamin Mena [00:24:16]:
So that's just awesome. Like, you know, and then I know we chatted offline that like all your clients ended up down the road following you.

Sean Rigsby [00:24:23]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:24:23]:
I mean, that goes into the power of relationships and I definitely want to talk about that later. So like you've been in the business for just a little while, just a few years, but you've seen, you've seen like the Great Recession. You've seen so many ups and downs.

Sean Rigsby [00:24:39]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:24:40]:
And it's one of those things like we're coming off of the golden era of recruiting where all you had to do was just say that you were a recruiter and you made money and things have changed like the tech market. We've had the tech bloodbath right now. You are dealing with a lot of political issues that is completely impacting your desk, your niche.

Sean Rigsby [00:24:57]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:24:58]:
Like I'll let you say it in a second, but like, I know when Doge went through my niche, like companies froze.

Sean Rigsby [00:25:04]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:06]:
These things are outside of your control, these macro issues. And how do you, first of all, you stay focused, and then we go into like what the macro issues are?

Sean Rigsby [00:25:14]:
And you know, this is probably one of my worst years. I'm not having a really great year, to be honest with you. And you know, I was reaching out to a lot of my friends. I'm a member of Pinnacle, and I'm sure we'll probably go into that later, but I was reaching out to a lot of friends for advice and guidance and all that kind of thing. But yeah, this has been through multiple things. But let's talk about, you know, how things kind of blew up. Let's, you know, with the current administration, you serve federal employees. I know you do, you know, federal work, government work that just completely blew up.

Sean Rigsby [00:25:48]:
We were doing some work in renewables, renewable energy like offshore wind, onshore wind that just, that stopped. Just stopped. And we have a client here on the East Coast, they lost, you know, essentially 25% of their backlog just disappeared, you know, where they had to do some cutbacks and all that kind of thing. Other things we were kind of going into, like we do a lot of work with like getting involved in Super Funds and which is kind of— and I know you probably don't— your audience doesn't know a lot of these terms, but you know, there are Super Fund sites which are very highly contaminated sites and that just kind of dropped. We're recruiters. We have to adapt and we have to kind of switch gears and stuff. So, you know, we kind of, kind of look at, okay, where is work going to be happening? You know, okay, we were doing this. Now we got to do this on environmental.

Sean Rigsby [00:26:43]:
And so now we're kind of, you know, switching gears and a lot of our core certs are still the same. I mean, the biggest thing I've seen too from this is confidence in hiring. We've been seeing a lot of that hiring processes dragging out. I just placed a person, you know, okay, we're talking about the heyday where companies were making 25, 30% raises to people. I just placed a project manager, plus or minus $100,000, and then they interviewed the guy 6 times. 6. And then it took 2 weeks to get the offer. And I'm like, are you kidding me? And then we had a couple of things.

Sean Rigsby [00:27:25]:
About 80% of our work is engaged now. You know, we made a switch to engaged and we could talk about that later if you like. We had Sean just hold the check. The position's on hold. Can't do anything right now. Are you good with that? You know, we didn't even start the search. And I just had a client last month send us a check for an engagement we started, and then they put it on hold. You know, like, we were recruiting for not even 2 weeks, and then they put it on hold.

Sean Rigsby [00:27:53]:
And so we're seeing wacky stuff like that. And we're lucky some of our core services that we do recruit in, money is being allocated to those areas. But it's really— everyone's kind of walking on eggshells. Particularly to hear about that big beautiful bill, that one big beautiful bill thing that I'm going to be doing. I know this is August. I don't know when you're going to be airing this, but we're setting up, we're going to be doing like a webinar and essentially I'm going to be talking about, okay, here is how this bill is going to affect people in the environmental consulting space. Here's what's going to drop. Here's where some trends are going to wing upward.

Sean Rigsby [00:28:35]:
What does that mean for you? We're actually putting that together right now. And going to do a webinar on LinkedIn about it and, you know, send out an invite and all that kind of thing. So, I mean, there's a lot— it is a wacky time from the government side. But you know what? We've seen wacky times. You know, like you said, there has been a number of ups and downs with this business and you got to just kind of— you got to kind of roll with it. You know, it's, you know, margaritas and Tums have helped me greatly this year.

Benjamin Mena [00:29:06]:
So outside of margaritas, outside of Tums, like, how are you— like, shit's hitting the fan. Like, how are you still staying focused and how are you still driving revenue?

Sean Rigsby [00:29:17]:
I'm not trying to get caught into, you know, I try not to stay watching the news because it's all bad shit. It's, you know, it's easy to fall down a rabbit hole, especially for me. Mindset is so huge in this business and You know, you try not to get sucked down that rabbit hole and go, oh crap, my world's blowing up. And trust me, I've had moments and, you know, but when you go through times like this, you gotta kind of say to yourself, and my kid works for me now, it's like, you gotta work twice as hard to get anywhere close to what you were doing previously. And if you're putting in the same effort when times suck, you know, your results are not going to be anywhere where you want them to be. And so a lot of it is kind of just grinding it out, working smart. Essentially every Monday, and then we have meetings twice a day, morning and the evening. Okay, what job are we working on? What's the quickest way to send out? Who's going to hire the quickest? And qualifying those jobs.

Sean Rigsby [00:30:28]:
And we're just focusing on that and working a lot with reach-out plans and all that kind of thing. It's still a phone business, I feel, but you know, you have to, you know, it's, but obviously it's texting now and emails, but I mean, it's just trying to work smart and getting rid of distractions. I put blockers on my computer, you know, so I don't go on Facebook or all that other kind of stuff. You know, I work in time blocks., you know, kind of keep me focused on that. It's little things like that because I get distracted so easy. I mean, it's not even funny. I'm like, hey, look at that. You know, it's, it, it's so easy for me to get distracted.

Sean Rigsby [00:31:06]:
It must be the ADHD I have.

Benjamin Mena [00:31:08]:
You know, this really is a business that attracts people with ADHD.

Sean Rigsby [00:31:15]:
Oh God. Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:31:16]:
I mean, like we talk about Pinnacle, like I know some of the Pinnacle people, squirrel. The whole room looks away.

Sean Rigsby [00:31:25]:
Exactly.

Benjamin Mena [00:31:26]:
Maybe Alan might be the only one that just like stays focused. Alan and Sharon are just like, okay.

Sean Rigsby [00:31:32]:
Yeah, good point, good point.

Benjamin Mena [00:31:34]:
Well, so anyway, so like back to being serious. So like in this stuff, like the craziness happening, going on, I want to talk about business development and I want to talk about relationship development too, because I think that's been a huge thing that you've done really well because you've had so many returning clients, this and that. And heck, when you left your job, everybody ended up following you. So like, you're doing something damn good with relationships. So like, BD and relationships, like, what the hell are you doing?

Sean Rigsby [00:31:59]:
I, I don't consider myself a sales guy. I mean, in all seriousness, not that I, I don't like the word sales, that's not the reason why I say that. I always consider myself more of a relationship person. You know, I will call clients, I'm calling clients and Hey Sean, I don't have a job order. I know it sucks right now. I know that. Just calling to see how you're doing. How are things? You know, I know my clients, I know what's important.

Sean Rigsby [00:32:24]:
We talk about kids, we talk about sports, but I don't think every call, you know, is me, me, me. It's, you know, I always try to put myself in the shoes of the person I'm talking to. You know, if I'm dealing with crap and the market sucks, I'm sure they're doing the same thing. You know, especially during a recession, you know, if someone's experienced a recession, I mean, I call clients all the time. I just spoke with someone today who I haven't worked with for a very long time and he's like, hey, and my call was, you know, hey Bob, it's Sean. What has it been like 30 years? Come on, man, let's catch up. And he called me, he's like, hey, how you doing? And we were just bullshitting for 15 minutes or so. I found, you know, and It's little things like that, you know, with clients there.

Sean Rigsby [00:33:10]:
But like in new business development, we're trying something different. I'm an old dog learning new tricks guy. I know you had your AI summit and good thing my kid works with me because the only thing I know about AI is this spelling AI. And it's everyone's on chat and all that kind of stuff. So I'm using chat where I downloaded like, trying to find new companies. And I know a lot of companies, but I'm trying to work a little bit smarter. So I kind of downloaded like my top 5 clients. Here are my top 5 clients.

Sean Rigsby [00:33:45]:
Here's their SOQ. Here's their website. Uh, here's the services they do. Find me 50 companies that are similar to these companies. It came out with a bunch of companies. A lot of them I knew. You know, but some of them I didn't know. And I said, hey, I'm more interested in these geographies.

Sean Rigsby [00:34:05]:
And it gave me a bunch of clients. And then I go, okay, here's titles I work with. Can you go on LinkedIn? I think, you know, I kind of gave the website and, you know, I threw some LinkedIn stuff. And I go, can you find me people with these titles and that work at these companies? And it gave me a slew of things and I'm gonna forward it over to my admin and I'll have her get me the contact info and all that kind of stuff. And that's how we're doing marketing right now. I've reached out to a few people. I had a company in North Carolina call me about a job. They called me and they were referred to me by a former client that I hadn't worked with in 10 years.

Sean Rigsby [00:34:51]:
That's good. And the only reason why. I stopped working with them is they won't go engaged. I kind of switched away from contingency.

Benjamin Mena [00:34:58]:
And let's dive on that real quick. So you were— how long were you contingent before you went engaged?

Sean Rigsby [00:35:03]:
Oh God, I was, uh, okay, I've had this probably 20, 25 years. Give or take 20, 25 years, all content. Why change? It happened about 10 years ago. I got into Pinnacle about 10 years ago, and so a lot of people were doing retainer and engaged. I always found that fascinating. My former company really wasn't wanted to stay contingency, so they really didn't want to go down the engaged or retainer route. And so I started talking to people who were having success and how do I even do that and learned how to do it. And then I also saw the benefits.

Sean Rigsby [00:35:36]:
You know, you're having clients, you know, with skin in the game. I can't remember where I read it, but the average search firm agency, you know, most firms work contingency, but you're only filling about less than 25% of your jobs on contingency. And all the risk is on you, the recruiter. I mean, the biggest expense we have as a company or recruiters is positions, searches that go unfulfilled. So you're working for free, which, you know, is like roulette. We all live it. But when we went Engage and we started tracking it, our fill rate went up to like 71%, 72%.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:13]:
That's huge.

Sean Rigsby [00:36:14]:
If they're giving you money, they're going to be working with you. How many times you call a client, hey, I need some feedback. And it's dead air, or your candidate, we're not going to hire Ben, he's not right. Can you tell me why? I just don't know. The manager just said wasn't good.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:31]:
Did your fees go up during that transition too?

Sean Rigsby [00:36:34]:
Our fees did go up and we made a conscious decision to do that. So what we wound up doing is it didn't go up because of Engaged. It just said I got I got tired of dealing with staff-level people who were taking offers and just going, hey, I'm going to go get a counter. And now counters happen all the time. And I'm not— and I don't fault the person. Hey, if I was in my late 20s, early 30s, I want to get as much money as possible. I get it. But I think it's a maturity thing.

Sean Rigsby [00:37:05]:
And my son had a candidate. They gave the candidate— this was during the heyday thing we were talking about. Gave the candidate like a $25,000 raise because we were preaching to them, I'm telling you, this person's going to get the living hell beat out of them with a counteroffer. You need to go big or go home. And they made a kick-ass offer. And then the company countered her. She stayed. But before she went for the counteroffer, she calls my son and says, Hey Evan, I want to thank you for getting me this offer.

Sean Rigsby [00:37:41]:
I just want to be fair to you because you've been great with me. I'm going to go to my boss with the offer letter. I'm going to ask for a counteroffer, and if they give it to me, I'm going to stay. And I want to thank you. And just like nonchalant and being polite about it. And then she did take the counter, and then she sends my son a $500 Amazon gift card. As a thank you. He sent it back.

Sean Rigsby [00:38:08]:
I told him to send it back, but that was kind of the light bulb moment where I said to myself, okay, we're not going to do this anymore. So I just made a conscious decision. The lowest position we're going to work on is $100,000, and then we're going to, we're going to market higher level people. So last year, our fees went up a little more than 80%, have gone up more than 80%, and our average Our average salary placed last year was about $173,000. Nice.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:38]:
Okay, so going back to your son, he got that $500 Amex gift card. Did he want to keep it?

Sean Rigsby [00:38:43]:
Hey, it's 20— it was 26. Of course he wanted to keep it. What do you think? Oh no, but go ahead.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:51]:
Why did you say that he should send it back?

Sean Rigsby [00:38:55]:
I think it's clients pay our fees. And it was just a thing with me, and I, I don't know, it just felt wrong.

Benjamin Mena [00:39:03]:
Okay.

Sean Rigsby [00:39:03]:
In my eyes. And I just said, I, you know, hey, thank them, but I don't think that's right to do that. And I just recommended you send it back. It was no, here's why you need to send it back, but it was just, it just felt wrong.

Benjamin Mena [00:39:18]:
Do you think that the difference in not taking advantage of that gift card, do you think that's going to turn into work down the road?

Sean Rigsby [00:39:25]:
No, no, no. Okay, but let me take that back. That girl, that candidate, did refer someone to my son that we did place. I'm sorry. Yeah, so that person did refer someone to him and he did place that person.

Benjamin Mena [00:39:41]:
Oh, there you go. That's way better than a $500 Amex gift card.

Sean Rigsby [00:39:45]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:39:46]:
Okay, so we covered a lot, and I know I definitely want to leave some time for like the quickfire questions that don't need to be quick answers, but Before we do that, is there any places that you want to go deeper on that we didn't cover enough of?

Sean Rigsby [00:39:59]:
You know, one of the things I kind of— two things I think you need to be— put yourself, you know, when you're a recruiter, yeah, we're all here to make money. We're all here to make placements. But you really have to understand the person you're talking to, whether it's the candidate or the client, and be a straight shooter. I mean, I just placed a person in upstate New York with one of my best clients. They wanted to get me an engagement for the position, and I said, let me do some research on the area and see there. And I did some research on the area, and it was a very, very soft market. There were no candidates out there where they want— it was up towards Buffalo, New York, Buffalo, Rochester, New York area. And what they were looking for, it was just You know, I told them I'm going to pass on taking an engagement because I don't think I can fill this job and that's not fair to you.

Sean Rigsby [00:40:56]:
And they said, thank you. And I really appreciated it. And I'm working on a more senior position for them. And the funny part is I'm recruiting on that senior position. I came across a person that they were looking for originally and they just hired that person, which is funny as all hell., but I wouldn't take the engagement because I didn't think we'd be successful. And if you're gonna be able to do something, let your client know. And I think that's something that resonates. I think you gotta be honest with your clients and your candidates, and you gotta ask hard questions.

Sean Rigsby [00:41:32]:
I don't think people ask hard questions, I'll be honest with you. And you know, I think people kind of stick their head in the sand and, oh, I hope, I hope, I hope. And I'd rather walk away from a deal in the beginning than get all the way to the altar where they want to make an offer and the candidate really wasn't on board. And then you got to start all that over again. I don't know if that's a light bulb moment, but I think sometimes, especially when times are tough, you know, you're just trying to make stuff happen. But I try to kind of put— because change of job sucks. I'm working with a person right now in New York City. In the mid-2s and I'm going, why do you want this job? What's the thing you got some concern on? There has to be, you know, I don't think we ask hard questions and then those things come back and, and bite us, you know, sometimes.

Sean Rigsby [00:42:24]:
And I learned that the hard way because I've lost a lot of deals early on by not doing that kind of stuff.

Benjamin Mena [00:42:31]:
And what's the hardest question that you normally have to ask within the recruiting cycle?

Sean Rigsby [00:42:38]:
With a candidate?

Benjamin Mena [00:42:39]:
Yeah, with a candidate.

Sean Rigsby [00:42:40]:
I would say probably the hardest question that is, you know, obviously we go through the interview prep and then, you know, just kind of pushing them and going, just doing qualifying questions, evaluating. We talk counter, but I mean, the hardest question is really, why do you want this job? I want to see a candidate come to me If I have to chase a candidate, it's like push-pull. If I'm going after the candidate and chasing the candidate more times than that, that's not gonna work out in a positive light. And I even said, you know, I'll say to a candidate, I don't think you're interested in this. And you know, I think we've all done it. We've had that, you know, what do we call it? The takeaway. And that's probably one of the harder ones for most people, including myself, and go, Ben, I really don't think you want this job. And that's okay.

Sean Rigsby [00:43:30]:
Let's walk away from it now. But, you know, can you tell me? No, Sean, I'm interested. Okay, why? And I hope you don't mind me being honest, but I'm just getting a sense that maybe this isn't the right thing for you. And if not, that's absolutely fine. I'll find someone for it. That's what I get paid to do. But I want to make sure, you know, I'm putting you in a position where I don't want you to say to yourself 3 months into it going, oh my God, what the hell did I do? I say that all the time to candidates. And so I guess that's probably the hardest question.

Sean Rigsby [00:44:03]:
You know, you ask me what time it is and I tell you how the watch is made. I give long-winded answers. Sorry.

Benjamin Mena [00:44:08]:
How is your watch made? No, just kidding. Jumping over to the quickfire questions, they don't need to be quick answers, but you know, you've been in this game for a while. You know, you're part of Pinnacle.

Sean Rigsby [00:44:21]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:44:21]:
You have recruiters reaching out to you probably because of your visibility online. You know, let's just say one of them hits you up and it's just like, hey, like I'm just starting my career in this world, just became a recruiter. If you could give me one piece of advice, what would it be?

Sean Rigsby [00:44:34]:
A couple of things. You know, one is, and I remember this was what was told to me, is don't get too high, don't get too low. And when the shit is hitting the fan, excuse my French, don't get too bummed out there. Learn to get on that phone and learn to pick up that phone and don't take things personally because you're going to get a lot of hangups. I work in the environmental field and I've had plenty of people drop F-bombs at me and I'd call them back and go, you're having a really tough day. Maybe you shouldn't be talking to me. I like reading books too. And this is one quote I like is this guy Darren Hardy I follow, and he did a book called The Compound Effect.

Sean Rigsby [00:45:15]:
And one of the things he was talking about, he was a sales guy. And he was talking about, you know, he was bitching and moaning, someone, you know, a deal blew up and stuff. And he was complaining to his mentor and he was like, and all of a sudden his, his mentor goes, are you done? And he's like, okay. And he asked him, he goes, would that person cry at your funeral? And he's like, what? I'm not dead. He goes, would the person cry at your funeral? No, of course not. So the only people you should care about are the people that would cry at your funeral. So don't worry if someone hangs up the phone on you. Don't worry if someone says, leave me the hell alone.

Sean Rigsby [00:45:49]:
Their loss. And that kind of stuck with me. That thing kind of always stuck with me. We're calling strangers. If, you know, they tell you pound sand or whatever, okay, their loss next. You know, that kind of thing. Don't take things personally if you're a new recruiter, because you're going to make so many mess-ups and you're going to put your foot in your mouth. And so you're going to get more crappy calls and good calls.

Benjamin Mena [00:46:15]:
So you've been part of Pinnacle for like, what you said, uh, 10 years now?

Sean Rigsby [00:46:18]:
10 years.

Benjamin Mena [00:46:19]:
What does Pinnacle mean to you?

Sean Rigsby [00:46:22]:
Oh God, it's, it's more than I could ever imagine. It's 80 recruiters who are just very, very good at what they do. Everyone's excellent, but everyone wants to see you be successful, and we get together twice a year for meetings and we just talk about how to get better. You know, we talk about our problems, we talk about our industry, we share information. You've been to a couple of the meetings, right, Ben? Yeah. Yeah. Some of these people have become some great friends of mine. And like I tell you, I'm not necessarily having my best year and, you know, the year will finish up good.

Sean Rigsby [00:46:58]:
And I was picking up the phone and I called a number of them. I go, please tell me why I sent an email, go, can I use you as a sounding board? And I said, please tell me why I shouldn't just pack it up and sell hot dogs at the beach with cold beer. I go, I can't, I'm just pulling my hair out and I don't have much hair left. And they were spending time with me and going, okay, what's happening here? What are you doing? Okay, have you tried, you know, and just, we talked things out and it was great. I could pick up the phone and ask someone for advice on, okay, here's what's going on. Like right now it sucks, but you could pick up the phone, you could bounce ideas off people. The best peer-to-peer group I was ever a part of. And when I started my own company, I didn't have that anymore because I left my old company.

Sean Rigsby [00:47:48]:
Even there were only probably 2 or 3 people I would really ask advice if I needed to bounce an idea off of someone. It's great. You know, where you can— you're talking with someone who's been through the same stuff you've been through. And, you know, and they have different ways to figure it out and such. But no, it's great. I'm gonna— I'm looking forward— I'm getting a couple of months out going. We have a meeting in Kansas City, so looking forward to catching up with folks and grabbing a good steak.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:14]:
That is a great place for steak.

Sean Rigsby [00:48:16]:
Never been down there.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:18]:
Kansas City barbecue. What is one of the toughest challenges that you've had to work through yourself?

Sean Rigsby [00:48:27]:
This year, the past couple of years, I would say it's been candidate engagement because we don't have a problem getting job orders, but getting candidates to call you back or engage, that's been the bigger struggle. You know, and we're trying different ways and different ways to, you know, with scripts and email. Reach-outs and texting. We do a lot of video. We do a lot of stuff on LinkedIn as well. But getting candidate engagement is probably the biggest pain point. You know, it's easy to get names. That's not the hard part.

Sean Rigsby [00:49:04]:
And also, you know, we're seeing for this year, we're seeing the hiring cycles dragging out. And just when you have a candidate, all the candidates, at least in my— hey, you talked about the heyday where companies were throwing insane offers at people. We're going, those offers aren't there anymore. We do a salary survey, you know, that's just strictly from my world, environmental consulting, and I'm sending it to candidates and go, hey, here's what the survey said last year, because we can't ask what people are making, but you know, the average salary, it's gone back to reality, maybe 10% tops now. That's what the survey came out with. And I was letting candidates know, I was publicizing it on LinkedIn. But can they still think, hey, I'm making 80, I'm looking for 110. Okay.

Sean Rigsby [00:49:51]:
You know, can I ask where you got that number?

Benjamin Mena [00:49:57]:
From 2022?

Sean Rigsby [00:49:58]:
Yes, exactly. It's, you know, we're finding that. I'm sure others are too.

Benjamin Mena [00:50:04]:
They got it from TikTok. Yeah, I remember like the days of like 2022, was it Work Talk? Like, look at this, my office. I'm not doing anything. I just got a $200K raise. Yeah, those videos have disappeared.

Sean Rigsby [00:50:19]:
I bet you saw some crazy raises in your world.

Benjamin Mena [00:50:22]:
Oh, GovCon. Sometimes it's the race to the lowest. The government wins the work to the lowest bidder. Well, so we were losing people to like the Amazons and all that stuff. And I'm like, you have a TSSI and a full scope poly. I want to come hug you. Nah, I'm going to Amazon. I'm like, I get it.

Benjamin Mena [00:50:39]:
You can work remote, you've got a $75,000 pay raise, and you don't have to like sit in a skiff.

Sean Rigsby [00:50:44]:
Oh God.

Benjamin Mena [00:50:46]:
Anyways, enough about me. But okay, how is it like having your son being part of your company?

Sean Rigsby [00:50:55]:
Wow. It's— and I never expected it. I never asked them. I mean, they grew up and it was weird. And I still struggle to switch from that dad hat to that boss hat there. And I mean, it's been great. He's been here for 5 years. I've had to, you know, really learn how, you know, just think of him as an employee, you know, and talk to him and be a little bit more honest and going Okay, that call really sucked.

Sean Rigsby [00:51:30]:
Here's why. Instead of like, hey, you're getting there, or, oh, that wasn't bad. I'm also being more numbers-driven with him now. Hey, you need to pick up your calls, or, you know, you only had one send out this week. Okay, let's take a look at what's on your desk. And I'm not saying what I do is perfect, and I'm getting better at it, but I mean, it's hard. I mean, it really is. And You know, I was shocked he wanted to work with me.

Sean Rigsby [00:51:56]:
So I guess I didn't torture him as his father all those years. So I guess, you know, he wanted to come on board, but he even asked my wife first, you know, hey, I think I want to do what Dad does. And my wife is like, okay, why are you talking to me? Go talk to him. And I talked about all the, all the nightmare scenarios, you know, here's the good stuff, here's the bad stuff. I maybe exaggerated a little bit of the bad stuff to see if he really wanted. And I said, okay, let's test it out for a year. And so he was working for— I was working remote all that time from home. And then after a year he said, hey, I want to do this.

Sean Rigsby [00:52:30]:
So then we got an office and I had to buy office furniture. And I said, are you sure? Because I'm about to spend some cash now and I prefer not to. And yeah, we have an office now, so it's kind of cool. It is.

Benjamin Mena [00:52:47]:
What is one of the greatest things about working with your son?

Sean Rigsby [00:52:51]:
It's watching him actually learn and seeing him progress, but it's— we've gotten closer. We've gotten closer too, and which is cool. And he was always kind of a little bit more introverted and not as outgoing, and he's kind of made a switch, and he's really very obvious. We have to be more proactive, so I mean, it's great watching him evolve just personality-wise and seeing him progress as a recruiter. And now we're talking about succession planning and I just, you know, check under my car regularly to make sure the brake lines aren't cut. So, you know, it's, you know, it's so, you know, I, with that, you like that one, huh?

Benjamin Mena [00:53:35]:
Oh, that was good.

Sean Rigsby [00:53:36]:
That was good. No.

Benjamin Mena [00:53:39]:
I hope they're not cut today.

Sean Rigsby [00:53:42]:
When this does air, if I'm not, you know, and you try to reach out to me and go, Sean, and I don't respond, okay, there you go.

Benjamin Mena [00:53:48]:
Oh, he just signed the paperwork over last week. That's what happened to him.

Sean Rigsby [00:53:51]:
Yeah, right.

Benjamin Mena [00:53:53]:
Well, anyways, so like back to the last question. It's always my favorite question. You talk to a lot of recruiters. You get asked a lot of questions. What is a question that you wish a recruiter would actually ask you, but they never do?

Sean Rigsby [00:54:06]:
Have you ever had to fire a client and why? I had to fire a client. Yeah, because we don't want to fire clients. You're going, oh my God, I need all these clients. Well, I fired a client that was the biggest pain. I'm not going to say their name, but they were probably the biggest pain in the ass I ever dealt with. But you send the candidate over, they don't get back to you for 2 weeks. They interview a person. Okay, we're not interested.

Sean Rigsby [00:54:32]:
Tell me why. I don't, I'm too busy and don't give you an answer. And then, you know, it was just always a struggle. And then all of a sudden I remember working on a job and I sent a candidate and then they call me back. Hey, I want to see so-and-so. Well, he's got an offer with another company right now. You guys never got back to me. He goes, hey, wait a second.

Sean Rigsby [00:54:58]:
You need to send candidates only to us and no one else. And I go, wait a second, your contingency, put me on retainer and I'll do that. And he goes, I'm not doing that. And then I go, well, then, you know, if I have a candidate, I'm going to be sending them to a number of places. You know, you didn't get back to me. And then he dropped a couple of F-bombs and The guy was a pain in the butt. And then I said, that's absolutely fine. I'll see you later.

Sean Rigsby [00:55:30]:
And then I started recruiting out of there. I made more money recruiting out of there than placing. And then they blocked my email from their servers. So I couldn't, you know, send an email. Wasn't a big issue. And then we were at a conference in Denver and one of their guys saw me. And it was just so happened it was perfect timing. I was actually making an offer to someone and all of a sudden the guy goes, Sean, and it was a guy from this company.

Sean Rigsby [00:56:00]:
And he's like, what can we do to have you stop recruiting us? I go, put me on retainer, 40%, and I want an upfront engagement of $150,000. I never heard from him again. I love it.

Benjamin Mena [00:56:18]:
I love it.

Sean Rigsby [00:56:19]:
And, uh, I've placed a number of people from this company and made a lot more money that way. So if you have a crappy client, fire them. It's freeing.

Benjamin Mena [00:56:34]:
I absolutely love this, Sean. We've, we've covered a lot. We've like covered your early days of you winning Rookie of the Year because you're one of the only people left standing.

Sean Rigsby [00:56:43]:
Last man standing.

Benjamin Mena [00:56:44]:
Last man standing. Here's your trophy for it. We talked about you like starting your business, but like most importantly, like in your world, the shit is literally hitting the fan. The market is like almost like at a standstill. You kind of like walk us through some of the things that you were having to do to stay focused. I think one of the most important things that you did was ask for help to your peer group. But we've also talked about the effort and the work that you have had to put in and how you've had to shift gears, be more visible on LinkedIn, tell more stories. Make calls that actually aren't focused on a sale, focus on the human relations.

Benjamin Mena [00:57:17]:
We've seen this through every single down cycle. Those that are doing the most touchpoints, when it goes back up again, there's the most touchpoints are coming back at you. So it sucks, but you're still going to like planning on having a great year, but you're really setting yourself up for the future. And I think this is a story that we needed to share because not every market is having a heyday. Not every market is having a great time. We always talk about mindset and how your effort and energy, like you focus on that, but there are things outside of your control and we talked about how to work through that. So Sean, I just want to say thank you so much for sharing your story today.

Sean Rigsby [00:57:54]:
Yeah, I appreciate you having me. I mean, this has been a lot of fun. It's not, you know, I don't do a lot of these. I've done a couple, but no, I appreciate you having me on and, you know, asking me to be part of this. This has been a blast.

Benjamin Mena [00:58:06]:
So for the recruiters out there, go crush it. Go chase your dreams. We only have a few months left in 2025, so draw a line in the sand, put your head down, and go crush it the rest of the year. See you guys later. Admin is a massive waste of time. That's why there's Atlas, the AI-first recruitment platform built for modern agencies. It doesn't only track resumes and calls, it remembers everything. Every email, every interview, every conversation.

Benjamin Mena [00:58:30]:
Instantly searchable, always available, and now it's entering a whole new era. With Atlas 2.0, you can ask anything and it delivers. With Magic Search, you speak and it listens. It finds the right candidates using real conversations, not simply looking for keywords. Atlas 2.0 also makes business development easier than ever. With Opportunities, you can track, manage, and grow client relationships powered by generative AI and built right into your workflow. Need insights? Custom dashboards give you total visibility over your pipeline. And that's not theory.

Benjamin Mena [00:58:58]:
Atlas customers have reported up to 41% EBITDA growth and an 85% increase in monthly billings after adopting the platform. No admin, no silos, no lost info, nothing but faster shortlists, better hires, and more time to focus on what actually drives revenue. Atlas is your personal AI partner for modern recruiting. Don't miss the future of recruitment. Get started with Atlas today and unlock your exclusive listener offer at recruitwithatlas.com. Thanks for listening to this episode of the Elite Recruiter Podcast with Benjamin Mena. If you enjoyed, hit subscribe and leave a rating.