How To Stop Losing $100K Fees At The Finish Line

Benjamin Mena [00:00:00]:
Do you realize that 2026 is almost over? Do you realize that COVID was almost 7 years ago? Crazy, right? But here's the thing. I truly believe that a short window of time and a short sprint can absolutely change your life. And who cares what has happened so far this year? That is the reason why Finish the Year Strong, the summit kicking off September 28th through October 5th, is going to help you get there. Is going to inspire you. It is going to motivate you. It is going to teach you. Remember, all the live sessions are free. If you want to get the replays, VIP, or join the Elite Recruiter Community, this is your opportunity to draw on the line in the sand.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:40]:
Make sure that you get registered. And we're going to be doing one more thing this year. Something brand new that we have not done before. We're going to do a Firm Leaders Summit on November 16th to 18th. Same thing. Live sessions are free. Make sure you get registered for both of those. And if you guys want a good laugh, I almost thought about doing the Firm Owners Summit.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:01]:
And then I realized so many of us are leaders, no matter where we are in the organization, we are a leader in the firm. So what I switched it up to Firm Leaders Summit. These are the 2 opportunities for you to get educated, get on board, grow, and absolutely crush the rest of the year and set yourself up as a foundation For 2027. I truly believe in you. I'm excited for you. I'm excited that the impact that you're going to have on your desk and other people's lives because of what you're capable of doing. I'll see you there. Coming up on this episode of the Elite Recruiter Podcast.

Ryan Sheppard [00:01:43]:
My first retainer, I priced at 40%, and I had never priced anything at 40% before. I wish people would ask me more about what I think is the most underrated Best practice in recruitment, and that one thing is reference checks. Why? Welcome to the Elite Recruiter Podcast with your host Benjamin Mena, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership, and placements.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:24]:
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Benjamin Mena [00:02:48]:
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Benjamin Mena [00:03:24]:
A 35% increase in new clients won, 15 hours saved every week, monthly billings jumping 85%, and agencies hitting 150% of their annual revenue target by building their business with Atlas. If you want more information, check out Recruit with Atlas. I am so excited about this episode because here's one of the things I've heard over and over. A book is a new calling card. It is— a book is a new business card. Is it? Can it be? But it's one of those things like, In recruiting, you have to figure out what sets you apart from every other recruiter. What makes you special? What do you bring to the table? What kind of value do you bring to the table that can help impact your business, help impact your guests, help impact your company, and impact your clients and the candidates that you work with? So I'm super excited about this episode because this guest who is on the other side of the world, and actually was, we were just before we went live talking about daily earthquakes. What the heck?

Ryan Sheppard [00:04:17]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:17]:
But other side of the world, wrote a book that's having a huge impact on your—

Ryan Sheppard [00:04:21]:
on his dad.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:21]:
So Ryan Shepherd, welcome to the podcast.

Ryan Sheppard [00:04:24]:
Thank you, Benjamin. Pleasure to be here.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:27]:
I've, I've been following you for a while, and it's one of those things that like I always knew the time difference was going to be hard, but I'm like, I just got to make this ask. I got to be like, Ryan, are you down for an interview? Because I think your story is so important because so many people think about— they have this idea of a book inside them. It's just, it hasn't come out yet. Oh, you, he, if you're listening, he's literally just shaking his head on this. But hey, let's get rocking and rolling. So last year we were sitting there talking about numbers in your pregame. You barely hit your number last year, your goal. And then this year, Valentine's Day, like you, you hit that, you hit your year goal by like, when's Valentine's Day? Was it February?

Ryan Sheppard [00:05:08]:
Yeah. So slight correction in 2024, I barely hit it. For last year, 2025, I hit my target by Valentine's Day and then the whole year ended up being 280% of target. So yeah, it was total hockey puck.

Benjamin Mena [00:05:24]:
I gotta ask, like, that's incredible hockey puck. Why, what changed?

Ryan Sheppard [00:05:30]:
Yeah, it was 2 things. First of all, it was transitioning to retained and discovering a resource to be able to do that. 'Cause I'd always wondered what it's like to work retained and how do I do it? And clients are always saying, nope, We don't do retained. So how do I actually convert them? Because, you know, I've been a contingency recruiter for 16 years. So I found a resource called Retrain Search and that changed everything. They gave me the mindset, the sales, the execution tools and everything. And then through that, I also discovered a book called Buy Back Your Time, which kind of gave me permission to like accept what are the things I love doing, talking to people, asking questions, and what are the things I hate? admin, like finding times in my calendar to send someone when I have my available. And that's where it started, just using Calendly and then kind of going up the replacement ladder from there.

Ryan Sheppard [00:06:18]:
And then now I spend my time on things that bring me alive and outsource or delegate everything else.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:25]:
So prior to you going retained, you were sitting there telling me that you were literally hitting almost the finish line of what would've been like an $80,000 like check or $100,000 fee, getting to the very final, it's just falling apart. And you just like, we're like, I can't do this anymore. Can you talk about that? Big number, $80,000 to $100,000 just magically disappearing right at the finish line after probably months of work.

Ryan Sheppard [00:06:51]:
Yep. It's a kick in the nuts. And you know, as recruiters, we always want to chase the highest fees, right? And we always want to chase ones where we have exclusivity to a degree. And so I was doing a pretty good job of that. I had kind of narrowed down my niche to senior commercial leadership roles in pharma. I've gotten some good contacts, gotten some exclusivity, but it was like a gentleman's agreement type thing, a week, 2 weeks, a month. And so there was one case where I'd mapped a whole market. I had looked into the exact sort of pharmaceutical asset type and molecule types and blah, blah, blah, only for the company to then go through an integration.

Ryan Sheppard [00:07:27]:
And all I got was, uh, sorry, we're on hiring freeze. And yet I was like so proud of this robust search I'd done, but I wasn't protected. So I was like, I can't continue working this way. I know I'm doing a good job. I know I'm delivering value, but my time is being wasted here. This isn't going to pay for my son's tuition. I've got to find a different way of working. And that's, that's when, you know, the pain Pain's a teacher, as they say.

Ryan Sheppard [00:07:53]:
And that's when the pain taught me to find a better way of working.

Benjamin Mena [00:07:58]:
So I got to ask you this, like, why does a headhunter that's working a full desk write a book? And don't tell me it was because you wanted to become an author.

Ryan Sheppard [00:08:08]:
Yeah. There was someone who is a really good retained recruiter who I wanted to be like. He said, Ryan, stop selling CVs. saw the process. And so I became so hungry to learn the process. And of course I got this Retrain Search course and was learning that, but, you know, business development at a high level takes time. It's a slow burn. The retainers didn't just come overnight.

Ryan Sheppard [00:08:34]:
It took 6 to 9 months of persistent follow-up and following, you know, the outreach sequences and so on. So during that time I was like, ah, I gotta be doing something more. Like, I want to create something. I want to use this process to produce a guaranteed result at the end of it. And there were 2 triggers to write the book. One was my coach in Retrain Search, Jordan Taylor. He's awesome. He's like, I approach BDE the same way I approach a retainer.

Ryan Sheppard [00:09:01]:
At any given time, I'll be working 5 retainers and one of them will be BDE. And I was like, okay, so 20% of the time, 20% of my week, I want to carve out for BDE. And then the other trigger was really wanting to create something, create an asset, because when we place people, we can't really talk about it, right? But I wanted to put my knowledge and my expertise into something because I love coaching candidates through interview prep, helping them develop their STAR method stories. And then I realized that, wait a second, my candidates are really appreciating what I'm teaching them, but I'm saying the same thing over and over again. How can I put that into a resource? So Started as a course, then I learned how to use ChatGPT and use the transcripts that I had made in the course into kind of an ebook. And it was gonna be like a couple pager sort of thing to promote the course. But then I just started pouring my heart and soul into that ebook, and then it became 5 pages and then 10 pages. And then I was like, how do I make like a prototype of a chapter? What would be in that that I would be proud of? or that I get value out of when I read books, because I read a lot.

Ryan Sheppard [00:10:10]:
And I was like, okay, a story.

Benjamin Mena [00:10:11]:
Yep.

Ryan Sheppard [00:10:12]:
A principle, because a principle can apply to many situations. And then a bit of an explanation and takeaways, action points, something practical. So once I came up with the first chapter, then it was like, okay, sort of rinse and repeat and scale that chapter prototype out with the rest of the substance that I had already put into the course, which is all just from, from my head, my experience. It wasn't, The course itself was before I even knew how to log into ChatGPT. It was just some, that was some distant tech concept. But the ChatGPT enabled me to sort of be my own ghostwriter and structure the book and then use ChatGPT to be, to act as my marketing head, to act as my legal advisor, to act as my fill in the blank. And then I was like, oh, I'm doing this. And then it just turned, it kind of snowballed from there.

Ryan Sheppard [00:11:03]:
And even you know, getting an endorsement was a retained search process in itself because I had to longlist, scorecard, outreach. And then when I got that one response from who's now on the front of the book, Dr. Marshall Goldsmith, Thinkers50 number 1 executive coach in the US and a bestselling author himself of many books. When I got that message, I was like, okay, it's on. Here's like a stamp of approval. We can go to market with this. And of course, Amazon KDP makes it so easy for anyone to publish. So now I believe everyone's got a book in them.

Ryan Sheppard [00:11:40]:
And I'm really glad to be able to refer people to the book when, when they're looking to market their skills in the market, because it's not just for Japanese people. It turns out that it's being appreciated by both introverts all over the world, as well as seasoned executives. who are like just kind of wanting a refresher on how to market themselves because they're interviewing people all the time. But suddenly when you're on the other side of the table, it's like, wait, how do I do this again?

Benjamin Mena [00:12:07]:
So for those listening, what's the name of the book?

Ryan Sheppard [00:12:10]:
Sell Yourself Like a CEO. Love it.

Benjamin Mena [00:12:14]:
So switching gears a little bit. So in Japan, you told me this in the pregame, I was just like, what the heck? So your fees are on average $35,000 to Correct. Most of the US is like 20 to 25%. Like why, like maybe explain to me, like why is it double in Japan versus like what we hear about in America or even like the UK, which is, I think like maybe like averaging 12 to 15%, maybe lower.

Ryan Sheppard [00:12:40]:
Yep. Supply and demand, basically. It's important to remember that the recruiting industry in Japan is driven by the need for bilingual recruitment. Why bilingual? Because US and European companies, they need bilingual local executives, but unlike other countries where English is a commonly spoken language, in Japan, it's not. Yes, it's a first world country. It's a G7 country, but it's a very domestic and insular country. It's been an island nation for thousands of years until only relatively recently. And still very much the mindset is that way as well.

Ryan Sheppard [00:13:14]:
It's domestic, it's insular, and English is taught in school, but based on memorization. So that fluency or that the articulating thoughts and sharing one's feelings isn't just, isn't really part of the culture traditionally here. So one, there's a language barrier. Only 10% of the companies in Japan are US or European. And of those companies, only about 10% speak English. So if you go to Pfizer or Coca-Cola, the leadership team will speak great English. They'll have MBAs from Thunderbird and whatnot. But then you go a layer or 2 down in the organization and that English ability quickly fades, even though they're working in a big US or European company.

Ryan Sheppard [00:13:56]:
So there's a very limited supply and the supply is only becoming more limited because there's also an aging population. So there's an abundance of candidates that are say 58, 59, 60 plus. And I know it's not kosher to talk about age in the US. In Japan, that'll be a requirement. HR will say they've gotta be below 45 years old. And in fact, gender is now often a requirement too. Like it's shamelessly discussed because there's a gender gap in Japan as well. Only about 25% of executives are females and in some sectors as low as 12%.

Ryan Sheppard [00:14:31]:
So there's this constraint here, yet the demand is high because Japan is still a big market for most industries. In healthcare, it's the 2nd or 3rd biggest market in the world. It's a must-win market. It's often procrastinated on because it's like, we don't understand Japan. We're full up. We have no capacity. All our capacity is dedicated to expanding in the US or Europe. Then we'll get to Japan.

Ryan Sheppard [00:14:55]:
So by the time they look at investing in Japan, there's this pent-up pressure to win in Japan. And they end up accepting the fact that, yeah, 35% are standard fees. And for niche searches, 40%.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:09]:
All right. So real quick, let's rewind the tape, like 30 seconds. Tell everybody who you are and what you do.

Ryan Sheppard [00:15:15]:
I'm Ryan Shepherd. I'm an executive search consultant in Tokyo, Japan, placing senior-level commercial leaders and country managers for US and European innovative healthcare companies.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:28]:
And this was a question that I had at the very start. I was just like, you almost sound American. But then I found out you're not, you're—

Ryan Sheppard [00:15:37]:
Canadian.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:38]:
Canadian.

Ryan Sheppard [00:15:39]:
But born in the UK, most of my life.

Benjamin Mena [00:15:41]:
Canadian born in the UK, you've been found in Japan. Wait, rewind the tape. How did you end up in Japan?

Ryan Sheppard [00:15:48]:
Yeah, my mom was actually born here as a missionary's kid in the '50s. And her parents also were Canadian. Um, when she met my dad in Canada, my dad's also Canadian. He was on his way to England for an assignment. So I was born in Birmingham, England and had a thick British accent until I was about 9 years old. Dad then had a midlife crisis, and because my mom is really Japanese inside, even though she's pure blonde and she's often mistaken for Princess Diana when traveling, my dad's like, okay, let's have a change in life. Let's move to Japan. And since my dad was a director of finance for a youth ministry organization in the UK, and, you know, we're a Christian family, we came here on missionary visas.

Ryan Sheppard [00:16:29]:
But then that kind of segued into my dad doing more charity work. So there was a charity based in Vancouver called Hope International. It helped with sustainable development projects in Southeast Asia, building water wells, things like that. He created Japan as a fundraising platform, developing relationships with high net worth individuals. And that's kind of where I got a first glimpse into what does it look like to build relationships with people and be rejected because some people are just like, don't ask me for money.

Benjamin Mena [00:17:00]:
So, okay. So I occasionally get hit up by a minister just walking down the street. I'm just like, in my head, I'm like, oh my God, like, do you know how many nos you get every single day? You would be the greatest recruiter. You'd be a, like a top biller easily if I could like move you into the recruiting chair. So like your family did ministry, knocking on doors, getting told no over and over and over. And then you went into recruiting. How much of that is almost the same job?

Ryan Sheppard [00:17:24]:
So I think what I learned from my parents, just seeing them interact with people and my grandparents too, because they were full-time preachers, was seeing the good in people. And there's always going to be people in the room that are a little quieter. They're a little more reserved. Maybe they have trauma in their life. My grandma did. And that's how she connected with people, especially women. And so I just always try to keep that, keep that sort of spirit with me where I go is not to judge people and there's good in everyone. So look for the good.

Ryan Sheppard [00:18:00]:
And some people just need an encouraging voice or coach to help them see that and to recognize one or two things that they do that are unique to them and just a little bit of feedback. And then it kind of comes out of them and then they thrive and they discover a new path forward. So I think that's really what I took away from that. And then the rejection part is just like, all right, if it's not their cup of tea, it's water under the bridge. Next.

Benjamin Mena [00:18:30]:
So you grew up in England, Canada, Japan, and like, I moved all over the US as a military brat. So like, you know, I was always the outsider in the US, but like, this is like the ultimate outsider. Like, what kind of disadvantages did you have to overcome?

Ryan Sheppard [00:18:54]:
Yeah, it was a little tough to be accepted at first. And I I guess I just learned not to care at first. And if anything, I had to learn to be a bit more sensitive with people and recognize that I am an outsider. And because maybe my personality is a little more dominant and vocal, then it taught me self-awareness to not have to be the dominant voice all the time and let others speak up. But it also just gave me space to grow as like a lone wolf, as just like as an independent thinker. And so growing up in the rice paddies in the outskirts of Nagoya, which is the 3rd largest city of Japan, it wasn't like I could just go outside and play roller hockey like I would see in Canada or go to the skate park and pop ollies. I would do that by myself, or I would mountain bike and build jumps in the rice paddies and, you know, get told off by grumpy old traditional Old men, but I just learned to find my own fun. And so that's kind of stuck with me to the day, to this day as well.

Ryan Sheppard [00:20:02]:
At the same time, just staying respectful and sensitive to different cultures. And even when I'm hanging around people who have thick accents, like Australians, for example, I'll start thinking in Australian. That's just kind of how sensitive that international upbringing has made me. I'm sure you as well.

Benjamin Mena [00:20:23]:
I got to ask you this is when did you roll into recruiting and how did you end up in this wonderful world of Misfit Toys?

Ryan Sheppard [00:20:31]:
I'm so lucky, man. It was not planned at all. In fact, it started as an internship. May 7th, 2008, I got an internship at a headhunting company in Tokyo. It was paid and I was told that all I'd have to do is pick up the phone and try to get meetings with people in 60 seconds. 2 minutes and learn an elevator pitch. And I'm like, hell yeah, gimme the script. I'll pick up that phone.

Ryan Sheppard [00:20:57]:
'Cause the last thing I want to do is be filling out spreadsheets and doing desk work and stuff like that. And it turned out I was pretty good at it. I'd get, you know, 1 meeting a day with a targeted person. That's 20 a month, that's 60 a quarter. And so then by the end of the summer, I was like, hey, I kind of want to stay on and keep doing this. And then I was lucky enough that they gave me a full-time job. So I didn't go back to university. I didn't even show up.

Ryan Sheppard [00:21:21]:
for my flight on August 26th, 2008 to go back to third-year commerce at University of British Columbia, which is a pretty good school, right? Sauder School of Business, pretty good school. But I was just like, I'm feeling this, I'm gonna stay. And I got clear targets, clear goal. Give me a full-time job. They gave me one. And then 2 weeks later, was it September 14th, 2008?

Benjamin Mena [00:21:46]:
Lehman shock.

Ryan Sheppard [00:21:47]:
My dad calls me up and he's like, Ryan, do you realize what's going on right now? Yeah, I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be interested to see how your company leaders respond to this. And then over the next like year, people would just leave and leave. So I had to make more and more and more calls just to survive and just hammer the phones and learn how to get yeses. You learn how to get names. And that was just before LinkedIn became a thing. So that's where it all started.

Benjamin Mena [00:22:15]:
So you didn't get let go during that time period?

Ryan Sheppard [00:22:18]:
Nope. Hold on.

Benjamin Mena [00:22:22]:
From when you started to that window of time for the Great Recession, how hard were you working?

Ryan Sheppard [00:22:32]:
I was coming on weekends, but you know what, Benjamin? I'm so lucky because it didn't really feel like work for me. I had a clear target. And I'm a target-driven, goal-driven individual. So when I have a clear target and I know what I need to do and I need to get that one meeting each day and everything's on track and I know what I gotta do, I just, just go for it. And so that's what kept me going. And then coming out the other side of Lehman shock, of course, the, the room was smaller and the clients were, you know, more appreciative. And as their pockets filled with budget, then, you know, you start becoming first to call. I absolutely love that.

Benjamin Mena [00:23:13]:
And I mean, it's one of those things, like, I think if you started 2 years before and then Lehman happened, it'd almost be like a different world. Like, yeah, like you started in hell.

Ryan Sheppard [00:23:25]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:23:27]:
So I want to kind of jump forward a little bit just for a combination of time and I want to focus on the book, but Take me to a specific search, not a pattern, just like take me to one deal where you mapped out the entire market. You did everything that you were supposed to do. You had the work done. It all fell apart at the end. Like when you were sitting there, like when did you find out and how did you regroup and how did you like handle that? Yeah.

Ryan Sheppard [00:23:54]:
Yeah. So the one I mentioned earlier, I had mapped that out very thoroughly. And so You know, in healthcare, everything revolves around a certain disease or a certain type of asset. And in this case, it was a certain type of oncology drug that was the first of its kind. And so we had to target, it's like 7 specific companies that had similar assets where we'd find the right people with the right expertise. And so we mapped that out. And in Japan, LinkedIn usage still isn't very high. So we're not talking about just doing a search on LinkedIn.

Ryan Sheppard [00:24:26]:
We're talking about name gathering. We're talking about having lunch with someone to get their help, to give us kind of some insider names. And, you know, it's like pure headhunting. And I know I did a good job on that. And I got 3 candidates to final interview until they, until the integration of the company and another division. was announced and it all froze. And then what was the kind of double kick in the stomach was when a candidate that went to final was subsequently hired through another agent for a lateral role. And that really upset me.

Ryan Sheppard [00:25:10]:
That's where I realized that it was nothing personal. It was just, I wasn't protected by the contract and they didn't see me as a partner. So I had to completely rethink how I approached them and how I protected my own time and how I structured my own contracts and way of working.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:28]:
I gotta ask you this, like you said that this happened a few times, like rough estimate on thousands of dollars in fees that fell apart towards the finish before you were like, hey, maybe this isn't like a pattern. It's not luck. Maybe it's just model that I'm dealing with.

Ryan Sheppard [00:25:46]:
Yeah, there was 5 more in the span of about 6 months. So another one was CEO for a digital health company that was starting up in Japan, but then they went IPO during the search process. And a couple days after the IPO, the price tanked and everything fell apart. And I was like, oh man. And then there was another one where it was like this head of communications role where I'd gotten the best person in Japan. Like I'd been told by 3 people that that individual was the best person in Japan. I was so proud and they were awesome as well. They taught me a lot through the process and I was on vacation with my wife in Europe for a month.

Ryan Sheppard [00:26:23]:
This was like a 10-year anniversary type vacation and I didn't do any work for that month except manage this one process forward until at the end they lowballed the candidate. They lowballed the candidate and this was a contingency search. And we're talking about a salary of, of $400,000 or $500,000 at a 35% fee. So you can imagine how good I was having sacrificed mornings with my wife saying, I'm sorry, babe, I've got to go out and do, do these emails. I'll be right back. And then I—

Benjamin Mena [00:26:59]:
Okay.

Ryan Sheppard [00:27:00]:
And that was all to waste because I was working in this way and exposed. And I could name more, but that, if we add those all up, we're talking about $500,000 in fees.

Benjamin Mena [00:27:12]:
In about 6 months?

Ryan Sheppard [00:27:15]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:27:15]:
Hey, so during this time, like what did you, what was your internal dialogue? What were you starting to tell yourself like before you started actually truly went retained? Because there's a lot of people out there that are literally in the exact same spot as you and they're just calling it a bad run.

Ryan Sheppard [00:27:31]:
Value your time. I knew that I could spot great candidates. I knew that I was getting access to great roles. I knew that I was working hard. The only thing that was missing was protecting my time and working with the client in a structured way of working. And so what I now know that regardless of the level of role, yeah, these were senior roles, but when I joined this Retrain Search community, I could see that That contingency recruiters all over the world were converting to this way of working, even for like £30,000 power generator engineers in the UK, for example, and completely transforming the way they were working. And so again, it comes back to mindset, sales, and then delivering it and relying on a process, not just a CV, but a process. To say, okay, your financial commitment is going to enable me to use a robust methodology to guarantee you the best possible outcome for this.

Ryan Sheppard [00:28:34]:
I can't guarantee I'm going to find you the perfect person. I can't make people come and work for you, but what I can guarantee is I'm going to follow these steps. I'm going to take a thorough brief. We're going to canvass the market. We're going to assess them against your criteria. We're then going to present to you the qualified interests and assessed candidates, put them through your process. And so at the end of the process, you're going to be absolutely confident you're hiring the best person in the market. And so I became confident that I had the right approach because I was taught what to say.

Ryan Sheppard [00:29:02]:
So this is not my genius. This is following a process. I was taught a process. My sort of art on top of that, I suppose, and everyone has their own niche, their own communication style, their own network, their own flavor they add to it. So just kind of learning. I would encourage anyone else out there who wants to work in this way to learn that process and make it work for them.

Benjamin Mena [00:29:27]:
Looking back, like, with all the years that you were recruiting, all the years in kind of like the space that you were doing, do you think you were always just going to end up working retained? Or do you think you could have just kept on trudging along contingency for another decade?

Ryan Sheppard [00:29:43]:
No way. No way. Not at all. I think I was always destined to do retained because I had seen that being a better way of working during my internship. It's just that for whatever reason, for whatever reason, despite being around great people for over 10 years, I never learned that way of working for some reason. And maybe because stumbling into life sciences around 2010, I was in new teams. And so those new teams were always kind of assembling databases, less focused on structured ways of working. So it was not until I learned that way of working, and now it's like I'm thinking beyond just recruiting, but I'm thinking, how can I help my clients solve problems? How can I better understand decision makers and stay curious, ask good questions, really get to the bottom of what's keeping them up at night, what they're trying to achieve until, oh, I can help you with that.

Ryan Sheppard [00:30:38]:
Can I show you how? And then it's an authentic sell. I don't even want to say sell. It's just an authentic solution. Like, I can help you with that. Can I show you how?

Benjamin Mena [00:30:48]:
So, I'm going to flip over to your book. Your book is called Sell Yourself Like a CEO. And the people that you're writing for culturally, they don't, you know, from what I've heard, what you were told me, they really don't talk about their, what they've done almost like many Americans don't do. So it seems almost like one of the hardest audiences to sell a book to with that title. Could you like, break that down for me? Like, how culturally different truly is it over there?

Ryan Sheppard [00:31:19]:
Yeah. There's a saying in Japan that says the nail that's standing up will be hammered down. So it is not kosher to talk about one's achievements and accomplishments. And that goes for these big US and European company employees as well. Doing a retained search and doing competency-based assessments where we'll ask the candidate, tell me about a time when you've Growing a team. Tell me about a time when you've had a challenge. How did you overcome it? What I struggled with during, as I was starting to do retainers, was getting candidates to be able to articulate a story. They would say things like, communication's very important, or I always try to da da da da.

Ryan Sheppard [00:32:00]:
I wouldn't, I wasn't getting tangible stories. And all it is is situation, task, action, result. So I was repeating teaching the STAR method over and over and over and over and over again. Yet when I would meet presidents of my clients, particularly big pharmaceutical companies, because obviously they're the top of thousands of person organizations, super crisp, super articulate. They're always throwing out examples. They're always throwing out, for example, da da da da da, or breaking things down into a way I could understand. And in like 30 seconds, and I'd be like, oh, Yeah. Okay.

Benjamin Mena [00:32:36]:
I got that.

Ryan Sheppard [00:32:36]:
So it was, it was a very simple concept, but it was like, okay, how do I package this in a way that one, I'm satisfying an internal need to create something, being bored and wanting to use a process to produce a result, but helping people because I knew that the further I'd go down the retained search path, it's ultimately funded by the client, not the candidate. So how can I package this as I kind of move on and, you know, progress with my career, but leave something behind For candidates. And it's not just for Japanese candidates, it's for people all over the world. In fact, that's why I started with, you know, the US version or the English version. So it could go on Amazon, get some credibility, some reviews. And then the Japanese version actually is right around the corner. I got it written, titled. It's a different title.

Ryan Sheppard [00:33:24]:
It's not going to be called Sell Yourself Like a CEO because that comes across a little bit too blunt. But, um, something a little bit more culturally nuanced. Stay tuned. But that's how the idea was born and that was the purpose.

Benjamin Mena [00:33:37]:
You said during the pregame, kind of something that made me stop in my tracks a little bit, like you actually ran your book launch like a retained search. Like walk me through, walk me through the mapping, walk me through stage by stage. Yeah.

Ryan Sheppard [00:33:50]:
So the first step is really create the book. That's write the brief, right? It takes a bit longer to write 160-odd pages than Like a five-page job brief, but once that's done, it's then okay. How do we define our totally total addressable market, and how do I leverage my network to get referrals? So in this case, that was okay. How do I get twenty reviews on Amazon on day one of launch? And the key to that that. every author does is called advanced reader copy, ARC. So you, you know, you give away the book for free to a bunch of people, they write a review. So I was like, okay, how many people do I need to outreach to, to get 20 reviews on launch day? So I, I just kind of worked math. I'm like, okay, so let's imagine a third, a third, a third.

Ryan Sheppard [00:34:46]:
So to get 20 reviews, I probably need to get 60 people to say yes. And in order for 60 people to say yes, I probably need to contact 180 people. So I was just like writing down names of everyone I'd ever worked with who would vibe with this concept, who I ever come across that was enthusiastic, personable, good communicator, passionate, a reader. And I just, I just populated this really long list, just like we do a retainer. And then I kind of scorecarded them to phase out the outreach. Got my 60 responses and I got more than 20 reviews. Actually, there's about 30 total now across Amazon Japan, Amazon US, Amazon UK, Amazon Australia. It's about 30 in total that are on there right now, plus 6 endorsements.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:39]:
So you scorecarded every single per— was it how many people total?

Ryan Sheppard [00:35:44]:
180.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:45]:
180. And you had a scorecard next to them?

Ryan Sheppard [00:35:49]:
Yep. Access, brand, and a couple others. And so that helped me know where to start. All right.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:55]:
You scorecarded, you put together the brief, you mapped out your market, which I absolutely love. I don't think— I love how you like put all this together, like almost like a retained search.

Ryan Sheppard [00:36:05]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:06]:
What about your presentation stage? What did that look like?

Ryan Sheppard [00:36:10]:
Uh, what do you mean by presentation?

Benjamin Mena [00:36:11]:
Like, When you, I guess, you know, when you're sitting there, you know, retained search, you're presenting the candidates, were you presenting, like when the book went to market, what did that day look like?

Ryan Sheppard [00:36:23]:
I see.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:24]:
Okay.

Ryan Sheppard [00:36:24]:
So there was, um, I announced the book on my birthday, which was December 25th, uh, 2024. So that was—

Benjamin Mena [00:36:32]:
Wait, your birthday's Christmas Day?

Ryan Sheppard [00:36:34]:
Yes.

Benjamin Mena [00:36:35]:
I'm sorry. Yeah.

Ryan Sheppard [00:36:37]:
I don't, it was like the one day of the year where it's okay to do a little shameless self-promotion. And really I saw this as a gift to the world. You know, maybe that's like grandizing it or whatever, but anyways, it was like, okay, this, this year I'm giving a gift to the world. You know, I'm sure it's going to help someone out, someone out there. Right. And, uh, I made a post about it, so that gave a boost. And then a couple of weeks later on January 7th, 2025, that was launch day. So everyone who had written a review, I had them on a list in my platform, Systeme.io, and it sent them The Amazon link saying the book is now live.

Ryan Sheppard [00:37:15]:
Here's the review that you wrote for me. Thank you so much. Could you kindly go ahead and just copy and paste this onto Amazon now, please? Because that's what Amazon needs to boost the algorithm, right? And the US is a red ocean for books, but in Japan, job hunting category, it became bestseller by a few, on a few occasions before Valentine's Day.

Benjamin Mena [00:37:40]:
How many people that wrote the review also flipped it over to Amazon?

Ryan Sheppard [00:37:47]:
So that 30 number that I just mentioned, those, that's the total of reviews on Amazon.

Benjamin Mena [00:37:52]:
Oh, nice. Okay.

Ryan Sheppard [00:37:52]:
Of course, not everyone is comfortable to or responded with a written review. Everyone's busy. I respect that. I'm not out trying to push people and convert them or whatever. I would say, hey, um, the book's live now. Would it be easier for you to do a video review with me? Just 15 minutes. I'll send you my Riverside link. There's going to be 5 questions in there.

Ryan Sheppard [00:38:17]:
And I just want to ask you those questions on Riverside. I'm going to cut them up into 2 or 3 shorts afterwards. And with your permission, I'm going to put those on LinkedIn to help spread the word. Because I think other readers will value what you have to say about it. More than just hearing me talk about it. And so for about 6 months, first half of 2025, pretty much almost every day there was, you know, a 30-second or so clip going up onto LinkedIn. And, uh, I used, you know, this company page to do that. And company pages don't have very good reach, right? But by tagging them, it went out to their network.

Ryan Sheppard [00:38:52]:
And so that was the distribution. That was the, that, that was my distributor, LinkedIn company page. I love that.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:58]:
So run it backwards for me. Like, what did launching the book teach you about retained search that you didn't already know after all your years of— or teach you about recruiting or retained search that you didn't know about all your years of recruiting? Like, what did, what did you learn deeper?

Ryan Sheppard [00:39:14]:
Well, one, it was the STAR method itself. It was always having examples to back things up. And I try to be a living role model of that. I'm not perfect. I can talk too much sometimes as well. But it's to always back up with examples. So when I'm pitching for retainers, I'll always give an example in 30 seconds. This company had this problem, so I did this and this was the result.

Ryan Sheppard [00:39:34]:
And that's what helped me to convert searches from contingency to retained. But then it was the process itself. So remember that guy told me once, Ryan, stop selling CVs, sell the process. And so it was really experiencing this process to guarantee a result. That taught me the power of a retained search that I, like, I had never experienced it before.

Benjamin Mena [00:40:00]:
What did the book give you that you didn't expect it when you started it?

Ryan Sheppard [00:40:07]:
I didn't expect that it would be valued. Not that I didn't believe in it, it's just I had no idea what to expect. And so, When I showed up at a networking event once and was introduced to someone and they're like, oh, I've read your book. How was that? Really? When someone joined my company from another company and their wife, who I have no connection to, had read my book, he's like, oh, Ryan, yeah, my wife's read your book. I was like, oh, sweet. So I just didn't expect that it would be be valued. I know it sounds a bit weird to say, but I think it goes back to this concept that everyone has a book in them. And there's so many people that I've met along this journey that have their own idea for a book or some idea, some message that they want to put out in the world.

Ryan Sheppard [00:40:56]:
So more than anything, I hope that people can recognize what that message is inside of them and just get started to get out that message, to get out those stories, to get out those principles. Don't worry about it being polished and formatted, just get it out. And in my case, what that looked like was 5 pillars, bullet points for each, hit the record button on a Saturday morning and start talking to capture it authentically, whether it's that format or voice notes, or heck, even you could write a book from this podcast series by transcribing them and thinking about, you know, 5 things that have changed Benjamin Manna's life from this podcast series and convert that into a book of your choice of word count. The sky's the limit. And so that's what I didn't expect going into this is just how powerful people's own stories can be in this day and age.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:58]:
So you literally did 3 things at once. You wrote a book, you completely changed your recruiting model. And you went through a training program.

Ryan Sheppard [00:42:07]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:42:07]:
Think about this. What if you still went reach, you know, turned into a retained search model, but you never actually wrote a page of that book? Where do you think your business would be now?

Ryan Sheppard [00:42:21]:
I think I would've driven into the sand. I think I would've gotten bored and demotivated because retained search, especially at a senior level, it's a slow burn. Right? Especially when you're in a company that isn't necessarily known globally for retained search, like some of the Shrek firms, leads just come in to them. So I think the momentum would have slowed. But what this gave me was purpose. And it gave me structure, and it gave me connection. So everyone that showed up on one of those video testimonials on LinkedIn or wrote a review, no one was forced to do that. They all did that because they wanted to support me and/or believed in the message.

Ryan Sheppard [00:43:03]:
They wouldn't have written or said anything if they didn't feel like there was some value there. So I think that just created the snowball of positivity. And of course it also helps to add substance to client relationships when developing relationships with decision makers over lunch or a call or whatever, because again, so many people have a book in them And they're like, oh, maybe I'll do that someday. And so they'd want to learn about it and they would discover their own thing about how they could bring their own idea to life. But then also their kids are graduating from university or high school and they want to equip their kids with how to recognize their own strengths and market themselves in an increasingly AI world. So it's like, how do we stay human? In an AI world. And sell yourself can be kind of an allergic term to some people perhaps, but people who know me know that it's not about the sell. It's, that's just, you know, kind of a title that has a ring to it, but it's about kind of tapping into one's own North Star and taking action to make that into a reality authentically.

Benjamin Mena [00:44:15]:
I wanna switch gears and be a little tactical with this next question. Like, What does the book actually do for you now? Like, how is it— walk me through how it's actually putting money on your desk.

Ryan Sheppard [00:44:25]:
So I get a few sales every week. It's like $10 profit a sale. So it's not that much, but it's a resource that I give to candidates and candidates that, you know, I may have met 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 years ago will tell me, oh, Ryan, you know, I bought your book. So is it a profit engine? Not necessarily. Although on the back end of it, I'm trying to build out the business side of it to funnel into the course, which is called C-Path, which is available on ryanshepard.com/join-cpath. Uh, but it's not really a priority to drive that. Like I'm mainly focused on executive search, but—

Benjamin Mena [00:45:05]:
Is it help— is it helping with BD for your search practice?

Ryan Sheppard [00:45:11]:
Yes, because what it's helping me to do Is to, you know, I have this kind of hot 100 list, like the next 100 next generation general managers in Japan, the next gen of CEOs who want to be a CEO, but in like 5 years, but they're not there yet. And so this is my way to keep them engaged and add value to their career. I'm not charging them for it and just engage them on like, someone wants to learn more about situational leadership. So I'm creating a situational leadership module right now to put in there and keep that proprietary talent network engaged. Because at the end of the day, it's like, why use a recruiter when you have AI? It's because of relationships. So it's a tool to help me stay in touch with those people and add value and be the first one they go to when they're on the market. And then I've got a competitive advantage versus Trex.

Benjamin Mena [00:46:05]:
I want to Move back over to just for time over to retained search for a bit. And just because I think this is a conversation I'm seeing a lot, did a master— like retained masterclass with Ali. I've had Jordan Taylor at some of my summits.

Ryan Sheppard [00:46:20]:
So he's shared a lot. I think he's hundreds and hundreds of people at the summit.

Benjamin Mena [00:46:27]:
Your very first pricing conversation, because it's a completely different pricing model. Like, do you remember that? Like, how did it go? Like, how did you, what did you say? He's laughing.

Ryan Sheppard [00:46:41]:
My first retainer I priced at 40% and I had never priced anything at 40% before. 35% is standard for contingency. But I was like, this is a hard search. I know their competitors. I've been watching their competitors for 10 years in Japan. And I knew that anything less than 40% wouldn't be motivating enough to me to do what I know I need to do to give them an awesome result, not just take a stab at it, but give them an awesome result. So the decision maker for that was, didn't push back at all on the fee because he could see that I knew his Competitors in his landscape and the lingo of that whole space. Global was a different story.

Ryan Sheppard [00:47:31]:
They thought it was exorbitant. And I had to get on a call with global head of TA and justify why I am not trying to rip you off here with 40%, but this is what your competitors are doing. I even kind of took some screenshots of invoices without company names on them. But to just prove to them like, look, I'm not taking you for a ride here. This is real because that company hadn't recruited to this extent in Japan before. So you can imagine they're like, 40%? Who the hell does this guy think he is? Right? So I had to really work on that and positioning like, this is what I need to deliver quality for you. And then they did it and, you know, the feedback was really good.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:15]:
So You now build market intelligence reports, market commentaries, one-pagers, case studies. Pick one of those, like what's actually inside these things and how long does it typically take to make these?

Ryan Sheppard [00:48:29]:
Yeah, it's really simple. So a case study, for example, a case study could be as simple as saying, hey, Mr. Prospective Client, you might like to know that we just placed the GM of one of your competitors. We'd mapped 100 candidates, shortlisted 5, and the successful candidate was attracted to them because of whatever. I'm a recruiter in Tokyo or a headhunter in Tokyo since, since 2008, specializing in life science. If you have any senior hiring needs, reach out to me. It could be as simple as that. What it actually looks like in terms of a material or a one-pager comes back to STAR, actually.

Ryan Sheppard [00:49:08]:
Situation, task, action, result. Situation. We had a client who was da da da da da. The challenge was they needed a bilingual head of sales to launch a da da da da da. Action is we put together a team of researchers, mapped the market, contacted them all, da da da da da da da. And here's the result. And here's a little quote from the client that's anonymized but true.

Benjamin Mena [00:49:30]:
That's it.

Ryan Sheppard [00:49:30]:
In fact, you can see these if you go to my LinkedIn profile, view portfolio. I have 5 or so general manager case studies. They're in a bit more of a brochure format, but it's really as much as pressing record or the mic button on Claude or ChatGPT and just kind of walking it through the situation, task, action, result of a placement without giving away information. And then it'll put it into this format and then copy paste it into Canva or Claude will even make the deck for you or one-pager or whatever.

Benjamin Mena [00:50:00]:
That's it.

Ryan Sheppard [00:50:01]:
And so that gives something tangible To someone who doesn't know me yet.

Benjamin Mena [00:50:07]:
And you said, talking about Claude and ChatGPT, like, I know we're always talking about AI. Always my AI summit is the most attended to, of course, because AI is like candy to recruiters. Where does AI actually make a recruiter more valuable?

Ryan Sheppard [00:50:24]:
2 ways. One, it helps me focus on calls by not furiously writing down notes and details because it's going to pick up on those things and I can ask better questions. I can go with my flow as a human and follow the conversation to dig, to probe, to sense, to expand, et cetera. The second way is, uh, what, where I found it really useful is when I'm doing these competency-based assessments or getting candidates interested in a role, answering their questions about the brief and da da da da da da. They're going to have questions. Oh, what about this? What about that? Do they really understand Japan? Da da da. And so AI will help me pick up on questions and concerns and patterns. That I wouldn't have had the mental capacity to track by myself.

Ryan Sheppard [00:51:05]:
And so when I'm doing that and I'm presenting a shortlist to clients, taking them to interview, I can now prepare the client for the interview, not just the candidate, but I can prepare the client. So for example, on one country manager search last year for a listed US company starting up in Japan, I said, Mr. President, Japanese candidates are very skeptical of aggressive listed US companies entering Japan, thinking that the rest of the world works like it does in the US. Here are the questions that they're asking. Now, you might, may or may not have the answers to these, but just by addressing them openly and transparently, you're going to be able to establish credibility with them to create trust and avoid losing these candidates starting from square one again, and then losing, you know, 6 months of revenue and market impact. So that was a very, that was, um, uh, an eye-opener for me, the value that AI can have to watch these conversations and then help us catch nuances and, and add value in ways that I wouldn't have had capacity to do before. All right.

Benjamin Mena [00:52:12]:
We've covered a lot. About ready to jump over to the quickfire questions, but before we do, is there anything that I should have asked you or something that you wanted to go deeper on?

Ryan Sheppard [00:52:21]:
You asked me a great question in the pregame. What the pregame, what do I wish people would ask me more? And I wish people would ask me more about what I think is the most underrated best practice in recruitment. And that one thing is reference checks. Why? Because for me, it's been the best way to not only understand candidates better and help to bring out the good in them because other people are giving perspectives, right? But it's also an awesome BD tool because we're getting connected with the decision makers who trust and respect these people and that probably wouldn't take our call otherwise because we're just a recruiter. But here we are assessing someone that they trust and it's, and then it naturally leads to a business conversation.

Benjamin Mena [00:53:10]:
For those listening, can you like maybe do a quick walkthrough of what a reference check and what you're, what you're doing with a reference check? Because I remember When I first started recruiting now over 2 decades ago, the reference check was mostly just like, hey, did they have a pulse?

Ryan Sheppard [00:53:24]:
Did they actually work there?

Benjamin Mena [00:53:25]:
Oh, cool. Cool. Bye. And like, literally I was like trained the reference checks that probably took like 30 seconds. I think a lot of people need to rethink how they're doing this. Like, so what are, like, walk me through real quickly what you're getting out of this.

Ryan Sheppard [00:53:39]:
Yep. So I'll say, here's a link to my calendar. Can you book a time for a reference check? And then in that call, I'll say, great. Uh, great to connect with you. Today's call is about so-and-so. Thank you for being a reference for them. I'm just going to ask, ask you some, some general questions. It's going to take about 20 minutes.

Ryan Sheppard [00:53:54]:
So I set the stage. Then, uh, start broad. How do you know this person? When did you work with them? What was your role at that time? Tell me about the kind of responsibilities they had. What do you remember them for? How do they stand out to you among other people and other leaders you've worked with? What was, what are their strengths? What are their weaknesses? Were they aware of those weaknesses and what were they doing to work on those weaknesses? I would also ask about the biggest impact they had on the business and what kind of challenges they had to overcome to get that. Again, giving me some star stories that helped me recognize things that that person might not have seen in themselves. I would ask them about how they work with the team, about the reputation. How do they manage up? How do they manage down? I would ask them directly, have you ever had any reason to doubt this person's integrity or honesty? And the answer is almost always no. I think I've had one my entire career that was, oh shoot, I can't put this person in front of the client.

Ryan Sheppard [00:54:51]:
But other than that, they're usually squeaky clean. And then lastly, is there anything you want to add? And then just like you invited me to expand on something randomly just now, they'll expand on something as well that might not have been picked up on. So that all takes about 25 minutes. And that's also an opportunity for me as an executive search consultant to walk the walk and live by example. You know, it's a live demo to them of how I work. And so then that helps with referrals down the road too. I don't think about that in the moment, but that's why it's so underrated because if we believe in it, if we do it, then it's such a natural way to expand networks.

Benjamin Mena [00:55:33]:
I love it. So quickfire questions don't need to be quick answers. What does your agreement look like? Like the structure, the milestones, what triggers each payment?

Ryan Sheppard [00:55:43]:
Yep. So it's a third on commencement. It's a third on presentation of shortlist, which is at the 4 to 6 week mark, depending on the specific agreement. And then a third on start date, although we're changing that to on On signing, because that's really the true retain model. We're still in a bit of a contingency habit right now of billing on start date, whereas the true retain model is final on signing.

Benjamin Mena [00:56:10]:
You said that you read a lot. What's a book that changed your career before you wrote your own?

Ryan Sheppard [00:56:17]:
Atomic Habits. Make the right habits easy, attractive, and rewarding.

Benjamin Mena [00:56:24]:
What does your tech stack look like? What are you actually paying for? Or what is your company maybe paying for?

Ryan Sheppard [00:56:29]:
StreamYard for LinkedIn Lives. I use Riverside for transcript editing. I use ChatGPT Enterprise, which is, you know, the company data privacy platform. I'll use ChatGPT to craft my ideal customer profile and empathy map them. Something else I've learned from Louise and Jordan. So I'll empathy map International vice presidents, global HR heads, and then the content that I put through for, uh, from webinars into LinkedIn, I try to make the captions targeted to them.

Benjamin Mena [00:57:00]:
Do you use like any other sourcing tools or like?

Ryan Sheppard [00:57:05]:
I like to use Talent Insights on LinkedIn. Um, I occasionally use LinkedIn Recruiter, but I rely almost 100% on my own network for sourcing. I love that.

Benjamin Mena [00:57:18]:
If you could go back in time to early, early days in your career with everything that you've learned, what would you go back and tell yourself?

Ryan Sheppard [00:57:26]:
Learn, retain, search.

Benjamin Mena [00:57:31]:
So you spend your days getting people to say out loud what they're actually worth. And many times, like, they don't realize that. I almost feel like that's become a skill. Looking back at yourself, and yes, you've written a book. Yes, you've changed. What would you tell yourself as a recruiter maybe a decade ago?

Ryan Sheppard [00:57:55]:
Like, how do—

Benjamin Mena [00:57:56]:
like, what are some of the things that you should have been saying about yourself?

Ryan Sheppard [00:58:03]:
The first thing is learn retained search. And number 2, That would enable me to really know candidates better. So yes, I've had times when I've had a big fee resting on a client choosing my candidate. It was an all or nothing thing. And I can't deny that maybe my judgment in that moment to say, yeah, I recommend this person may have been biased. I would have been less biased if I would have learned how to do retained search earlier, because that would have enabled me To make, um, to have a more thorough assessment of candidates. It enables me to take the time to assess it more deeply according to what the client really needs. And then that reference check piece as well, because I've placed some people that may not have had the best reputation.

Ryan Sheppard [00:58:49]:
And while I believe that everyone is a good person by nature, the fact is that the way they perform after joining a company does reflect on us. And I've had one or two cases that, that I think damaged, that weren't the best experience. And I wish I would have, I wish I would have been, I wish I would have had the capability to recommend and provide a better solution to my clients. Because in those cases, retrospectively, retained search was the right solution. I just didn't know how to propose it.

Benjamin Mena [00:59:23]:
I love this. We've covered so much. 2, maybe 3 last questions.

Ryan Sheppard [00:59:27]:
Okay.

Benjamin Mena [00:59:28]:
First of all, if somebody wants to find your book, how do they, how do they do that?

Ryan Sheppard [00:59:33]:
Amazon.com.

Benjamin Mena [00:59:35]:
If somebody wants to connect with you or follow you, how do they do that?

Ryan Sheppard [00:59:39]:
LinkedIn.

Benjamin Mena [00:59:42]:
And with you being an author, with you being active on LinkedIn, with you having a team around you, you, I've seen you interact with a lot of recruiters over the years. I'm sure you get questions from recruiters probably every now and then, right? You know, how do you do this? How do you do that? And all those questions that you get, is there anything that they just, that you wish they would ask you, but they never have outside of something that you've already given and already shared?

Ryan Sheppard [01:00:11]:
Beyond the reference check, I think one thing that I do get, do get asked more and more often is how I get together with presidents. And something, and I wish people would ask me this more because it's very easy to do. Uh, about 10 years ago, I started to get small groups of presidents together for drinks. It's called President's Drinks. Nothing special. We get no banner or fancy marketing presentation. It's just an opportunity to text a few presidents, both who I know and also who I'm trying to cultivate relationships with. Say, hey, getting, I'm hosting a small gathering of presidents.

Ryan Sheppard [01:00:47]:
For drinks on such and such date from 6 to 8 PM. Come and go as you please. Are you interested? That's it. And guess what? These presidents are lonely. They want to get out. They want to let their hair down. They want to put something on the calendar so they can get out of their office and go back onto the road. And they love networking with each other.

Ryan Sheppard [01:01:07]:
And then guess what? I get to hear what they're talking about and griping about and bragging about and da da da da da da. And pick up on their communication styles and their wavelengths. So I think that's a really easy way for anyone in any industry to just get— it doesn't have to be presidents either, decision makers, because ultimately that's, you know, the people making decisions for our hires are the ones we want to know better, right? So I think that's a really easy tool and it's just a mindset thing because I was lucky enough to see my dad getting people together growing up. It comes naturally to me. I see it and I see how simple it is. And so I just do it, but it's something that's within everyone's reach. So I'd encourage everyone watching this right now, jot down 5 or 10 people you want to bring together, send that message, make it happen, and you can only get something good out of it.

Benjamin Mena [01:01:57]:
In real life, I think is a 2026, 2027 game changer.

Ryan Sheppard [01:02:03]:
Relationships, FaceTime.

Benjamin Mena [01:02:06]:
Yeah. Ryan, this has been absolutely epic. Like I said, I just, I remember seeing one of your posts. I remember seeing like you sharing. I was like, okay, Ryan's on my list. I love that he's written a book. A book is a new calling card. And I think you said it best.

Benjamin Mena [01:02:20]:
Like so many people have a book sitting inside themselves and lay it down. STAR method, work it like a retained search. Get that book out of you because you never know How it's going to change your desk. You never know how it's going to change somebody's life. Because here you, this is kind of the cool thing. Like you grew up in a family where what they did for work had huge impact on people's lives.

Ryan Sheppard [01:02:48]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [01:02:50]:
What you do now in the recruiting chair also is probably one of the most impactful careers that you can ever choose. Yeah. Because you're actively changing people's lives. So I know there's so much to take away, whether in real life events, bringing people together or getting a book. 2026 and 2027 is your year. You're delusional. Make it happen. Keep crushing it, guys.

Benjamin Mena [01:03:20]:
Atlas is a CRMx, a CRM that actually understands context. It captures everything you say, hear, read, and write. Every interview, client call, LinkedIn message, email, and WhatsApp automatically. Not because you spent the time entering it. It's because Atlas is always listening. Then it goes one step further and tells you the next action to take. So when you need to fill a role, People Search ranks the best candidates and tells you why. No digging required.

Benjamin Mena [01:03:45]:
The same memory turns BD into a shortlist of who to chase and why. So you win more clients. Need to see your pipeline? Speak to your dashboards and Atlas builds a view automatically. Tracking whatever matters to you, whether you place permanent or contract, Atlas covers both with a new contract suite. That means you never have to chase a timesheet again and live margin visibility on every single placement. And with its new MCP and API, Atlas plugs into your, your LLMs, Claude, ChatGPT, and the rest of your stack. The low-value work that keeps you from billing, Atlas does it for you. Atlas customers right now are saying that they're seeing a 50% higher candidate response rates, a 35% increase in new clients won, 15 hours saved every week.

Benjamin Mena [01:04:25]:
Monthly billings jumping 85% and agencies hitting 150% of their annual revenue target by building their business with Atlas. If you want some more information, check out Recruit with Atlas.

Ryan Sheppard [01:04:35]:
Thanks for listening to this episode of the Elite Recruiter Podcast with Benjamin Mena. If you enjoyed, hit subscribe and leave a rating.