4X Growth While Everyone Watched Their Inbox Die.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:00]:
In the last 12 months, has AI actually helped you make more money? Has it actually helped you make more placements? Or has it just been a lot of noise? I know we just got done with the AI Recruiting Summit, which was absolutely amazing. But here's the thing. I'm partnering with Seb Sharp, who's going to walk you through how to build a bunch of tools. 2 sessions, August 25th and August 26th. You want to make sure that you get signed up for this. He is going to show you how to build an autonomous lead agent. He's going to show you how to build a placement agent. He's going to show you how to connect your entire tech stack, your ATS, your CRM, all your sourcing tools together, how to build a free website to save hundreds of dollars a month with true infrastructure.

Benjamin Mena [00:00:41]:
And here's the thing. These are also going to have AI assets that you get to keep after these 2 days, recordings, templates, and a week of Slack access to Seb. So to answer questions as you're building everything for yourself, walkthrough, build along. And then a week of access. You do not want to miss these sessions. This is the perfect follow-up to the AI Recruiting Summit. This is your chance to like literally cut down a lot of your costs, do all the things that you've been talking about and actually make money from AI. This is going to be awesome.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:12]:
Make sure to get registered. I will see you there because I'm going to be in class along with you while Seb's doing this teaching. Coming up on this episode of the Elite Recruiter Podcast. When did you realize that the email channel that everybody else is doubling down on Was dead and you had to go a different direction.

Brian Abrams [00:01:27]:
What I did is I took like a fun part of my personal life. I merged it with my business life. You know, I didn't know what the response was going to be at the beginning, but it turned out people loved it.

Benjamin Mena [00:01:39]:
Welcome to the Elite Recruiter Podcast with your host, Benjamin Mena, where we focus on what it takes to win in the recruiting game. We cover it all from sales, marketing, mindset, money, leadership, and placements. Atlas is a CRMx, a CRM that actually understands context. It captures everything you say, hear, read, and write. Every interview, client call, LinkedIn message, email, and WhatsApp automatically. Not because you spent the time entering it. It's because Atlas is always listening. Then it goes one step further and tells you the next action to take.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:16]:
So when you need to fill a role, People Search ranks the best candidates and tells you why. No digging required. The same memory turns BD into a shortlist of who to chase and why. So you win more clients. Need to see your pipeline? Speak to your dashboards and Atlas builds a view automatically tracking whatever matters to you. Whether you place permanent or contract, Atlas covers both with a new contract suite. That means you never have to chase a timesheet again and live margin visibility on every single placement. And with its new MCP and API, Atlas plugs into your, your LLMs, Claude, ChatGPT, and the rest of your stack.

Benjamin Mena [00:02:49]:
The low-value work that keeps you from billing, Atlas does it for you. Atlas customers right now are saying that they're seeing a 50% higher candidate response rates. A 35% increase in new clients won, 15 hours saved every week, monthly billings jumping 85%, and agencies hitting 150% of their annual revenue target by building their business with Atlas. If you want more information, check out Recruit with Atlas. I am so excited about this episode because our guest has 4x'd his revenue over the last few years. And here's the thing, he's not chasing the latest AI tool, he's not chasing These clay tables and sending out these AI messages and everything that you hear about. He's actually taking a few steps back and going old school, truly old school. And when I say old school, meeting people in real life, that has become the differentiator.

Benjamin Mena [00:03:40]:
He is going to lay out the exact game plan that he has done, what he has found out, what things like that don't work. how you can do the exact same thing that he's done in your niche, in your space, so that way you can have the exact same growth or even more. And then this is why I'm so excited to have you, Brian, on the podcast, because like you literally want to come on and be like, this is my entire playbook. This is exactly what I am doing. There are no secrets. I am here to share. So, Brian, welcome to the podcast.

Brian Abrams [00:04:13]:
Thank you, Benjamin. It's great to be here. I've watched your podcast for a long time now. Definitely admire the conversations you have with experts, with staffing leaders, and I'm so glad it's my chance to come on and speak about something that has been successful for me. And what I want to do is pass that on to your viewers, see what they can gain from it and apply to their organizations and hopefully have some of the same successes that I've had.

Benjamin Mena [00:04:44]:
We just had an episode go live this week. Where they've done about $40 million in revenue and they don't do any cold email. And the reason why that they don't do cold email is because they've just watched cold email die. And I'm sure everybody is in there dealing with the same thing. Like email worked for so long and now it's just like trying to get in somebody's inbox is so hard. And like all the stuff that used to work just isn't working as now. And it's probably because everybody's being pounded by more AI messages. But If I get an email or you get an email, you're probably deleting it, right? Half the time.

Brian Abrams [00:05:17]:
Most of the time, uh, unless it's something very unique, um, I'll continue on. But most of the time I'm deleting it just like our clients do.

Benjamin Mena [00:05:26]:
But you did something different. You spent $20,000 on a booth to go to a conference. When did you realize that the email channel that everybody else is doubling down on was dead and you had to go a different direction?

Brian Abrams [00:05:41]:
So we still do sequences, we still utilize LinkedIn. I still feel like that's a part of RBD and getting discovered. However, the conferences that we go to play into the overall business development ecosystem that we've developed. So I like to hit clients from multiple angles. Yes, we do sequences. Yes, we leave voicemails. Yes, we send LinkedIn messages. And yes, we go to conferences.

Brian Abrams [00:06:10]:
And all of these things play off of each other. Okay, they see me at the conference, they'll remember me when they see an email in a couple weeks. You know, they've seen the LinkedIn message, they see our marketing on LinkedIn. So these things bounce off of each other. And like you said, some of it's very new school, some of it's very old school. And I like that there's multiple channels that we utilize. To get in front of clients and become memorable. And hopefully if one's not working, the other one will.

Benjamin Mena [00:06:41]:
And I love the memorability thing. And we're going to talk about that because like when we were talking in the pregame, I was like, holy crap, that's freaking genius. People are excited to see you at the conferences, but we'll talk about that in a bit. So staffing overall over the past few years has been dropping about 6%, 6%. I think it just, it went down 6% in 2024. You were growing. At what point did you realize that you're sitting there making a bet that you're like, hey, I'm going to go spend these thousands of dollars that you weren't sure that you were ever going to get back? Like, what were you thinking going into like some of these first few conferences?

Brian Abrams [00:07:14]:
Yeah, so, um, our conference approach has changed over the years, but we've really gone into overdrive, I'd say, right after COVID, um, when we started having some successes that when we're showing up, when we're adding value, when we're having great conversations, when people started buying into it and eventually started utilizing our services more and more, then we started even adding more to it. And like you said, we invested in a big booth, right? Probably the cost of some automobiles. And we went ahead and went all in on conferences and have made conferences, again, a part of our overall BD strategy, a very important part of our BD strategy. Again, being seen, being out in public, people see who you are. They remember your name from that email that they saw 6 months ago. Oh, that's right. Yeah, I wanted to stop by the PMO Partners booth and see you. So yes, the growth has definitely been accelerated through are being seen at some of these big industry conferences.

Benjamin Mena [00:08:24]:
And for those listening, about how much of your revenue on a yearly basis can you attribute to these conferences?

Brian Abrams [00:08:30]:
Yeah, so there's a lot of different ways to look at it, right? You know, we don't look at it necessarily from just the one big one we go to, 'cause we go to big ones, we go to small ones. So we kind of take all the money that we've spent on those conferences over a year, and then we look at, the gross profit that was made from those conferences, from those connections. And then we say, okay, we made 30% of our gross profit or 40% of our gross profit from that certain year came from, from attending the conferences and being in front of people. It fluctuates from year to year, but overall, over the past 5 years, I'd say, you know, that our gross profit has been like 30 to 40% from the conferences.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:16]:
30 to 40% from actually seeing people in real life.

Brian Abrams [00:09:18]:
Yes.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:19]:
Freaking love that.

Brian Abrams [00:09:20]:
Yeah.

Benjamin Mena [00:09:20]:
Well, let me take, let's rewind the tape real quick. So for those that don't know you yet, who are you?

Brian Abrams [00:09:27]:
Great. Thank you, Benjamin. So, um, my name is Brian Abrams. I am the president and founder of PMO Partners. I've been in the staffing game for 25 years now. It's crazy to say, but actually a little more than that. And I've worked for some small staffing firms. I've worked for some big staffing firms.

Brian Abrams [00:09:49]:
I've worked internally. So I got to see things from a few different perspectives. You know, large staff, I've worked for one of the largest staffing firms out there, and I've worked at some smaller places. They operate differently. They have different approaches to clients. They have different types of resources. You know, I got to learn a lot from those 2 different experiences. I've also worked internally for companies as well, which was really important because I got to see how HR teams, talent acquisition teams work, how they interact with staffing firms and how they view staffing firms.

Brian Abrams [00:10:24]:
So that was really a nice learning experience for me. That's actually the last thing I did before I started PMO Partners in 2014. And yes, I did start a niche staffing firm for IT project management. At the time, and honestly still now, I don't think there's anyone else out there that is dedicated to this niche. There's a lot of reasons why I chose IT project management. One, of course, is that I enjoy it. I like talking to project managers. Prior to recruiting for project managers, when I was in the big staffing world, I recruited for a lot of skill sets.

Brian Abrams [00:11:06]:
I recruited for developers. I recruited for Java when that was new and hot. I'm showing my age a little bit here. I've recruited for systems admins. I didn't really love that, to be honest. It wasn't my thing. But when I started recruiting for project managers at that very large staffing firm I mentioned, I was like, this is for me. Like, I found what I was meant to do in the staffing world.

Benjamin Mena [00:11:31]:
I loved, Wait, so real quick, you, when you were at the start, large agencies, you started doing some project managers and like, you're like, this is amazing. And then you went, you said you went internal for a little bit, right?

Brian Abrams [00:11:43]:
I did. Yeah. I left the, um, staffing world for a little bit. I'll admit, um, there was a time where I got burnt out. Um, and I was like, I don't know. Um, I don't know if the staffing world's for me anymore. And I just went internal.

Benjamin Mena [00:11:58]:
Why did you not go? to another internal position? Like, why'd you decide to start your own agency?

Brian Abrams [00:12:04]:
Because I realized I missed it. I realized I loved it. I realized I missed it. I had a lot of relationships built with candidates over the years, and I felt like I wanted to utilize it. And honestly, I realized that it wasn't staffing I missed. Some of it was related to leadership I interacted with, to be quite honest. And I said, you know what? I bet I can do this on my own. I bet with this niche that I got so good at, I can go out on my own and create something, create something that is new and that the people I'm trying to sell the service to has never heard of before, this niche.

Brian Abrams [00:12:54]:
And it turned out that really was the case, that so many project management leaders, they hear from staffing firms, but they've never really heard from someone that understood project management staffing. So when I came up with the idea of PMO Partners, it was like new and refreshing to these leaders That were like, oh wow, you focus on what I do? I've never heard of that. Of course, there's staffing companies that place project managers. All the, all the big ones do, but they treat it like everything else, Benjamin. So they treat it like recruiting for help desk. They treat it like recruiting for developers, but project management is different and it plays to my strong suit, which is really relationship building. Getting to understand your candidates, their career goals, their desires, what they really want in working with a staffing agency. Like, that's what I was really good at.

Brian Abrams [00:13:55]:
And so much of project management itself is relationship building. I took all of those attributes, all those things I learned over the years and said, I'm going to start a staffing firm around project management. I'm certain that The people I'm trying to sell this service to have never heard of a niche firm like this. And I created it and have to admit, I'm so glad that I did. It was one of the best decisions I ever made. And my hunch was right that if you tell them you're here to service them, you're here to service the community, you're not trying to be everything to everybody, you're not trying to fill every role that the organization has that these hiring managers are really going to appreciate.

Benjamin Mena [00:14:43]:
I love that. Well, then take me back to the early days, like when it was just you, before you spent $20,000 on the booth, before your team. You said it was just you with a cheap banner behind you getting overwhelmed. What did that version of you not understand yet? Sure.

Brian Abrams [00:14:59]:
Um, I think I started going to conferences on my own and Never really did it before, so I didn't know what I was getting into. So I was just, like you said, I was like showing up, right? Hoping that the magic would happen. I didn't do a lot of research beforehand on who the attendees might be. I didn't bring enough materials with me. And honestly, I might've pushed the service a little too hard, you know, because again, Company was still new, still trying to prove to myself that going out on my own was the right thing. Anyone who started a staffing firm knows that first year or 2 is a little tense. It's like, okay, you know, I really got to build this thing up. And yeah, I made it, you know, a little bit about what I can do for you and not so much about, hey, you know, what is it that you're really here for? What is it that you you want? What are you trying to get out of the conference? So I learned to adjust my approach over time.

Brian Abrams [00:16:06]:
And like anything else, when you're an entrepreneur, there's going to be trial and error, and that's okay. And I tell people that too, like, don't be afraid to make mistakes. Don't be afraid to take things and learn. Now, I'd say another mistake I made, Ben, is I did probably attend some of the wrong things. Like, I've You know, I, I went to some conferences, I realized, okay, maybe this one's not for me, you know.

Benjamin Mena [00:16:29]:
Yeah, let's definitely talk about that because like, you know, most of the time somebody would just say like, you know, hey, we just kept showing up and things happened. But you specifically went through a shift, like you were going to conferences that cost like $2K to $3K, local ones, things that like you've like on paper you're doing the work, you should be showing up. But what was the first big conference where you walked in and went like Oh crap, like this could be the whole business now.

Brian Abrams [00:16:55]:
Yeah, um, I'd say the first one that was the biggest one I went to, and it was still a learning experience but turned out to be very successful, was probably the PMI event, um, in Philadelphia in 2019. At that event, I met a lot of people that I still interact with to this day, clients, experts, speakers, et cetera. And I got exposure, and this was kind of a cool thing. I got exposure to people that weren't either candidates or clients, but they were experts in their space. They were speakers. And I got a chance to learn with them and interact with them and explain what I do. And many of these folks had— many of these folks referred me to candidates and clients. So I'd say the big one that really kind of set off like, okay, I'm going to really start investing in this space was the PMI event in 2019.

Brian Abrams [00:17:59]:
Of course, there was no event in 2020 due to COVID. That kind of, you know, slowed things down a bit. But when the conferences started opening up again in 2021, then it was like full steam ahead for PMO Party.

Benjamin Mena [00:18:12]:
So I want to jump forward and then we're going to like jump back a little bit into some of my next questions, but walk me through the math of like one PMI summit. You're writing pretty much a $40,000 check. You got booths, flights, your team, 1,500 t-shirts. And we'll talk about that later because I'm so excited about that. Like, that's a huge number for a boutique firm, $40K. Like the first time you wrote a check like that, like how did you mentally justify that?

Brian Abrams [00:18:39]:
I said, we are, and my team knows this about me. I said, we are going to get the most out of this. We are going to make so many connections. We are going to present the best PMO staffing firm out there. We're going to make all the right connections and we're going to make this work. And we did. You're right. There's no guarantee.

Brian Abrams [00:19:02]:
You put that money in and— you give it your best shot. And, you know, I know we're going to talk about this more, but a lot of it comes down to preparation. Again, just showing up is absolutely not enough. There's really 4 steps to conferences, at least for me. And I'd like to, you know, talk to your viewers about this, but definitely the preparation was a big part of it. And now, you know, I don't have an issue spending that much on conferences because I know it's going to come back and that's proven itself here.

Benjamin Mena [00:19:37]:
There you go. A few placement checks that actually pays for it. But we're going to walk through the 4-step playbook a little bit in a little bit. But before we go there, I'd love to know, because you said most of this was just learned by trial and error. And the reason why that you want to come share today is so that way you try to like have some listeners avoid the error side of it. Yeah.

Brian Abrams [00:19:54]:
I'm happy to talk about the errors.

Benjamin Mena [00:19:59]:
How about this? What is one of the most expensive mistakes that you made? The one where you spent the money, showed up, and it didn't work. And what did that teach you?

Brian Abrams [00:20:09]:
Okay. I'll talk about a few expensive mistakes. So first one is going to the wrong conference. I say that's a pretty expensive mistake because I've gone to conferences where I thought, okay, they're going to be interested in PMO partners. But it actually turned out to be just a different industry. You know, it was something that I tried out, right? Again, trial and error. You tried it and it didn't work and you didn't do it again. So I'd say an expensive mistake is probably choosing the wrong place to go, which is why you have to really research the right places to go and who is going to show up.

Brian Abrams [00:20:49]:
Another mistake that I'd say it was probably costly, not so much in terms of actual dollars, but maybe reputation, I don't know, is when it was early on, again, not a lot of money to spend. All of the money that goes into conferences is literally Brian Abrams's money, right? My money. I didn't bring enough handouts and I hoarded the handouts for people that I thought were going to be potential hiring managers. And so I'd give like something for someone that was just a nice conversation. Here's a pen for you. And I'd save like the big gift, which at the time was the t-shirts, for people who I thought were going to be potential hiring managers. I learned the hard way that people don't love that when you hoard the materials. And it wasn't that I was trying to be like stingy or selfish.

Brian Abrams [00:21:44]:
It was that like, I only had so many. Right? At the beginning, you know, when I was handing out phone chargers or when I was handing out the shirts, right? I only brought so many of these to the conference because, you know, there was a cost to them and I wanted to give it to potential hiring managers of folks. You know, I had a good conversation. I'm like, okay, this is someone who can potentially be interested in our services. Here you go. But then I'd have people coming up, hey, like, I'd like a shirt. Hey, I'd like a phone charger.

Benjamin Mena [00:22:13]:
And they're like looking at the ones on your table and you're like, No.

Brian Abrams [00:22:16]:
Yeah. So I was kind of like, no, sorry. But people don't understand that. And in retrospect, okay, I understand why they didn't understand that. They come to these conferences, they think the handouts are just for everybody. I was, you know, being choosy and that cost maybe from like a rep— I don't know, like a standpoint of, okay, why doesn't this guy want to give me a shirt? Right. That's when I said, okay, We're going to give out 1,500 shirts. We're going to give out a ton of shirts.

Brian Abrams [00:22:50]:
And that way, and I kind of parlayed that into my whole marketing scheme for the conferences. And that really took off.

Benjamin Mena [00:22:58]:
So I want to, before we jump into the playbook and everything, I want to, I want you to walk through one deal or one time where it all paid off. You don't have to give names. You don't have to give like client information, but like, I'd love, like, how did something maybe start at a relationship at the booth, turn into a conversation that turned into a major client? Can you walk me from handshake to deal and how that went?

Brian Abrams [00:23:23]:
Absolutely. And this is really kind of an interesting story, which I'm going to elaborate on a little bit later, but you have to take every contact seriously. The biggest client we got from a conference was someone that came up to us for maybe 10 seconds and talked to us. They were busy. They were headed to another— they were headed to a session at the conference. They stopped by the booth. They didn't even talk to me. They talked to someone on my team, and they had maybe a 10, 15-minute conversation and said, I might need a business analyst.

Brian Abrams [00:24:02]:
I might need a project manager in a couple months, right? So just like I do for everybody after the conference, I followed up with her, left a message one week, left a message the next week. Next week she calls me back, Brian, with her hair on fire. Brian, we've got these— this huge initiative coming up. I'm going to need this, this, this, and this. And that interaction turned into one of our biggest clients, huge revenue, huge GP. The point I'm trying to make is the quick conversations that you have could actually turn into something big. The conversations that you have that seem like amazing, oh my God, this is going to be a great client someday, that can sometimes turn into nothing. I have seen the opposite happen as well, which is why you have to be diligent with following up after the conversation.

Brian Abrams [00:24:58]:
Because that, that person that you talked to and had a pleasant conversation and said, you know, they're a maybe, they could turn into the biggest thing. And, and that's actually what happened for us.

Benjamin Mena [00:25:09]:
So like, I know that you're super militant about your niche. Like you're very focused on exactly what you are. Like your goal isn't to be just a recruiter at a conference. Like you have to be the project management firm At the project management conference. For a generalist out there that's listening to this, who's like scared to narrow down to their niche, did niching unlock the growth for you?

Brian Abrams [00:25:37]:
100%. You know, I, I talk about this with my team. I talk to this about to folks outside the company. The most powerful thing about our organization is our niche. We are truly viewed as part of the project management ecosystem, and I'm so thankful that the folks at PMI, the organization itself, as well as all the folks within PMI, have really embraced us as one of them. We're looked at as trusted advisors for those organizations that want to bring in elite project management talent. And that's because we show up at these events, we interact with people, we speak at some conferences sometimes, and we really have proven our expertise in that area. So it's very natural for us to be at an event like PMI Global or, you know, a regional PMI event.

Brian Abrams [00:26:42]:
because our niche, our expertise in our niche really has built our credibility and the trust amongst our candidates and our clients.

Benjamin Mena [00:26:53]:
So I want to jump into the playbook and it's going to be broken into 4 different parts. The first part is going to be the year, the year-long slate. Part 2 is the pre-work and is the part that probably nobody actually does. Part 3 is the floor, working the floor. And part 4 is the follow-up and the pushback. So let's just go ahead and jump into part 1. You plan your entire year out. Walk me through how you actually choose what conferences that make it, make the cut for you to go to.

Brian Abrams [00:27:23]:
Absolutely. So by October or November of any year, I try to have the next year planned out already. It's very rare that I will go, just go to a conference Or say I'm going to go to a conference in the same year that picked it that year, right? Like, it's not like in February I'll say, oh, I'm going to go to such and such conference in June. It's because the conference slate, as you said, has already been picked out for the year. But one thing I'm always doing is evaluating. I'm evaluating conferences. You know, people come to me and say, hey, Brian, would you like to have your booth at this conference, et cetera. So I'm always evaluating what's out there, what might be great for PMO Partners, what is applicable to our niche, and also the industries that we work in.

Brian Abrams [00:28:18]:
So for example, we do a lot of work with higher education institutions. So we go to a higher education IT conference every year. It's called Educause. They're the number one institution for higher education IT professionals. So we show up there to meet leaders of IT and project management within higher education. So that one's been a mainstay for us. PMI, of course, has been a mainstay for us. We also go to something called the Project Management Summit slash Business Analyst World.

Brian Abrams [00:28:54]:
We're going to 2 of those this year. So yes, I try to lay it out the year before, but I'm also looking to upgrade. I'm also looking into, okay, are there any additional conferences that we should be going to? Is it a regional thing? You know, there are definitely regional conferences that we've gone to in the past. So, and we're not against deleting as well, right? If something's just not working, maybe we move on to it and invest in something else.

Benjamin Mena [00:29:22]:
For those that are listening, like picture this, like you're looking at 10 conferences. What are the 3 to 4 things that you're looking at to decide if this is going to be yes or no? Is it the attendee count? Is it the ratio of buyers to vendors? Is it the cost for the likely conversion? Is it the cost of the conference? Like, what are the things that you're analyzing?

Brian Abrams [00:29:44]:
I think the first one is, okay, The client base that I am selling to, the client base that I'm promoting my services to, are they going to be at this conference? I think that's first and foremost, right? Are the people that I'm trying to appeal to going to be at this conference? And, you know, will I have a chance to interact with them there? I think that's probably the number one thing, Ben. Is making sure that the people that you want to sell your services to are going to be there. That's again part of being niche, right? If you're a niche, then you probably should know where your hiring managers are hanging out. Again, both online and in person. Where are these people going to be? So I'd say that's probably the biggest thing. Of course, everyone's in a different situation. Thankfully, we've grown PMO Partners to the point where we can. Spend our marketing dollars on bigger conferences.

Brian Abrams [00:30:47]:
A startup staffing firm, you know, again, like I was 10, 12 years ago, is looking to get the most bang for their buck. So yeah, in that event, try looking into the more local scene versus maybe the national scene. See if you could start building your reputation that way.

Benjamin Mena [00:31:06]:
And when you start getting some successes, maybe start looking into the Do you ever pitch yourself as being a guest speaker or you typically mostly look at sponsoring?

Brian Abrams [00:31:18]:
It's both actually. Definitely the sponsoring, you know, you want to have your booth there. I would absolutely recommend that over just attending and handing out your business cards. I don't think that's the best way to gain mindshare. So having a booth, having a, you know, a booth that tells your story, is important. But yes, speaking is very much a good way to be in front of people. I think every recruiting staffing firm leader has a story to tell and has their pulse on the market of their specific niche. So, and people want to hear about that.

Brian Abrams [00:31:56]:
They want to hear what your take is on the marketplace for their niche, both potential candidates and yeah, the hiring managers too, because sometimes they're looking for jobs as well, right? So absolutely speaking, getting, um, getting your PowerPoint together and, uh, doing a 15 to 30 minute presentation is absolutely a valuable thing and definitely something I've done in the past and will likely continue to do in the right spots.

Benjamin Mena [00:32:25]:
So I want to jump over to the pre-work, which you said that this is the absolute most important thing that, and the thing that most people don't do.

Brian Abrams [00:32:33]:
Yes. Again, just showing up is not enough. You really need to research the event. So I take it to another level. So I don't just research who's going to be there. Yes, I do that extensively. Often you can get a list of attendees from the conference that you're attending. You just got to ask for it.

Brian Abrams [00:33:00]:
Some people don't even do that. You have to ask like, hey, could you show me the list of people who are going to be there? Sometimes they won't give you full contact information, right? They might give you names or they might give you titles and you have to figure it out on your own. I love doing that. That's kind of a, you know, kind of a game for me. But yes, you find out who those folks are and you reach out, you send LinkedIn invites. If they accept, you send them a quick note, a kind of a no-pressure note. Hey, saw that you're going to be at this event. We're also going to be there.

Brian Abrams [00:33:37]:
We're at booth 345. It would be great to meet you. No pressure. You're not selling at that point. You're not trying to gain mindshare. You're simply announcing your presence at that event. Now, they might write you back and say, yeah, I'll stop by if that's If that's the case, great, even better, right? I try to research people that have been at the event in the past, right? Okay, they've been there in the past, probably they're going to be there as well. Who are the speakers? I like to find out who the speakers are and interact with them prior to the event.

Brian Abrams [00:34:10]:
Yeah, so there's a lot of different ways that you can try to figure out who's going to actually be at this event, and it's so crucial. I study the names. Okay.

Benjamin Mena [00:34:22]:
You study the names? Like, what do you mean you study them? Are you like literally—

Brian Abrams [00:34:25]:
I like try to just like remember every single name of people who are going to be there that I want to interact with. So I'll go through, I'll create the list, right? And I'll just try to put it to memory that, okay, this person's going to be there. This person's going to be there. I share the names with my team. Hey, if you see this person, wave at them and bring them in. Right. Um, so. Uh, the, okay.

Benjamin Mena [00:34:49]:
Picture, picture that, picture this. Okay. So you get a, like, how big of a list do you typically get at some of these conferences? Like, is it in the thousands?

Brian Abrams [00:34:55]:
Yes, it is in the thousands. It is in the thousands.

Benjamin Mena [00:34:59]:
How do you figure out who's name that you really want to remember? And how do you, like, how do you start? Like, you know, that's a, I definitely, I can't remember a few thousand people if I'm looking at a list. Like, how do you figure out who you need to find?

Brian Abrams [00:35:11]:
Sure. You know, we'll take that list. We'll usually, that list comes to us in an Excel document. We'll maybe delete some people right off the bat who we don't think are going to be worthy contacts. And then we kind of whittle it down. We do the research, we figure out who's who, and then we send out the LinkedIn invites and we say, okay, you know, these, I don't know. Yes, there'll be like 1,500 people on the list. We usually kind of take it down to like 200 or 300.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:41]:
Okay.

Brian Abrams [00:35:42]:
And I just try to remember all the names. And I don't know, I have a good memory, Ben, so I'm good at that. And I remember the faces from their LinkedIn pictures and I try to rope them in if I see them.

Benjamin Mena [00:35:55]:
About how many days out from the conference do you typically send those LinkedIn messages? Because this could be a few hundred messages.

Brian Abrams [00:36:00]:
Yeah, about a month out, I'd say. Again, it's a no-pressure thing. I'll send the LinkedIn invite, they accept the invite, I'll send out one message. If they don't respond, I'll send another message maybe like 2 or 3 days before the conference. So it's a bit more top of mind for them. But yeah, I'd say 30 days out, you know, you start your research maybe 60, 90 days out, you start sending messages 30 days out and again, closer to the conference. As exhibitors, right? So one thing I've learned over time is that being a staffing firm at these big events is kind of rare. There's not really staffing firms that go to these things.

Brian Abrams [00:36:41]:
A lot of them are software companies. A lot of them are, you know, they have the next greatest thing. Well, guess what? Those places need project managers too. So I love talking to them. What I'll do is I'll walk up, I'll bring a shirt, I'll bring a football, I'll bring a pen, I'll bring my card, and I'll walk up to them and I'll just start talking with them and seeing if they're a potential client for us too.

Benjamin Mena [00:37:05]:
Being on at a conference requires a lot of energy. Is your thing that keeps you going, is that coffee?

Brian Abrams [00:37:15]:
Uh, yes, for sure. Uh, one, one thing about me, I do not sleep well when I travel, uh, especially for these conferences because I'm so amped up for it. And yes, I need an extra large Dunkin' for these conferences. Sometimes twice in a day. Yes. But yeah, maintaining your energy level is important. You know, these events can be intense, at least they are for us, which I'm thankful for. So maintaining your attention, your energy level, eating, you know, making sure you stop to eat, making sure you stop to take a break, catch your breath, go for a walk is really important.

Brian Abrams [00:37:57]:
at these events or else you're going to be dead tired by noontime.

Benjamin Mena [00:38:02]:
Yeah, it's just something that I always forget about because day 1, it's just like, oh yeah, energy. And then day 2, you're like, wait, what? I woke up to the 6 AM run. Now like it's kicking in because there was meetings late at night. So mostly it was just curious on your energy level. So picture this, we're jumping to part 4. You get home, you get back to the office. The next day, what do you do that next day?

Brian Abrams [00:38:29]:
Well, for one, I am just so excited to jump in. And, uh, as you might guess, I've already done all the research, like on the plane, in my— what, in my hotel room, on the plane. I'm like roaring and ready to go by the time that Monday hits. Definitely you want to try to rank The conversations, right?

Benjamin Mena [00:38:50]:
Okay.

Brian Abrams [00:38:51]:
So I rank them like 1, 2, 3, between really strong leads, medium, and not so much. Again, going back to what I said before, don't necessarily think that the 1 leads are going to all hit, and don't think that the 3 leads are just so-so because they may end up being some of your biggest clients. But so that this is something we've tinkered with over the years as well. Yes, we run sequences, but not in the traditional way because we want to come off as genuine and remembering who these people were. So I don't just put them into like a sequence in HubSpot or my database or whatever. I try to write like real Emails. Again, I've got the good memory. Thankfully, I will remember things from that conversation.

Brian Abrams [00:39:48]:
Sometimes it's in the app too, right? Sometimes I made the notes on it, but I will remember things from that conversation and I will specifically mention those things. It shows them that, look, this wasn't just another conversation for me. I really care about creating a genuine relationship with you, and I remembered what you told me about when you came to Boston and you went to a Red Sox game, or I remember what you told me about potentially meeting a new project manager in 2 months. So I try to really tailor each email to the individual. The other thing I do, Benjamin, is I put a little sticker of our shirts in the email, right? The Run PMO shirts. I put like a little, I guess you could call it sticker or sticky, whatever, in the email. And people will see it and be like, oh my God, I love my shirt. They will say, or they'll be like, oh, I remember seeing all those shirts at the conference.

Brian Abrams [00:40:57]:
I didn't get one. Can you send me one? So That's a kind of special way that we remain memorable when we're going through our sequences. And usually it's like call, email, LinkedIn message, whatever is going to connect. Because again, you never really know how someone's going to respond to your outreach. So we do all of those things.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:19]:
And do you have a certain amount of days that you keep on doing outreach or is it you keep going until you can get ahold of them? Indefinitely.

Brian Abrams [00:41:28]:
I typically, um, do like an 8-week sequence with the call, call, email, call. I'll do that for like 8 weeks. If I haven't reached the person by that point, I'll probably try again a couple months later. But I typically keep it at 8 weeks. Uh, at some point you gotta say, okay, maybe they're not interested right now, but that doesn't mean they won't be interested in Okay.

Benjamin Mena [00:41:53]:
Now here's the fun part. I was just kind of like blown away, like when you were chatting about this in the pregame, the shirts, you do Run-DMC style shirts called Run PMO. Where did that idea come from? And what happened the first time that a whole conference started wearing your shirt?

Brian Abrams [00:42:12]:
Yeah. So it's, uh, it's kind of a fun story. So I'm, I'm an old school hip hop guy, big Run-DMC fan from the '80s. So. Always. Yep, exactly. Yes. Yes, sir.

Brian Abrams [00:42:24]:
That's always been a big part of who I am. When I was thinking of something unique that was going to stand out, and by the way, standing out is such a big part of going to these things, being memorable, gaining that mindshare through something unique. I thought of the Run— I saw Run-DMC. When we're talking to PMO leaders, right? You know, they'll always say, oh, I run the PMO. I'm the director of the PMO. I run the PMO. Like anyone who runs a division or a group, run PMO. So it made me think, oh, run PMO.

Brian Abrams [00:42:58]:
So I run PMO Partners, but people run PMOs. Oh, wouldn't that be so cool to kind of mash these things together? So what I did is I took like a fun part of my personal life. I merged it with my business life. And, you know, I didn't know what the response was going to be at the beginning. But it turned out people loved it. You know, the first conference I brought them, I only had like 50 shirts. They were gone before the first day ended. And that's when I said, all right, I really need to invest in this.

Brian Abrams [00:43:32]:
And for the next big conference after COVID, I brought 1,500 of them and they were gone after the first day and a half. 1,500 shirts. Is about like 25 boxes that we shipped to this conference. And we went in, we went through them in like a day and a half. And what we do is we build this into our kind of marketing campaign. So we've got people and we say, you know, put on the shirt, wear it around the conference, take a selfie, put it on LinkedIn or put it on Instagram, #RunPMO. You can be entered into a raffle. to win an Amazon gift card, right? And people love the idea and they love the shirts anyway.

Brian Abrams [00:44:16]:
So they're wearing the shirts all across the conference. People are walking up to them, oh my God, where did you get the shirt? You got to go see PMO Partners. And it just kind of all revolves around itself. So it's a fun thing. The PMI people love it. The project management community loves it. We make a, you know, we make a thing out of it. And yes, I take a lot of joy in seeing Hundreds and hundreds of people wearing our shirts.

Brian Abrams [00:44:41]:
The fun story is leaving the PMI conference last year at the airport. I saw like 10 people wearing the shirt at the airport. And as I was boarding the plane, the stewardess said to me, and because I was wearing the shirt too, the stewardess said to me, did you go to a concert? I said, what concert? She's like, your shirt. I was like, oh my God. She's like, yeah, I seen like 20 other people wearing your shirt. I was like, oh my God, you just made my day. So yes, the shirts are a big part. Again, I think it's really important to do something that makes your organization stick out, something that's fun, something that's memorable.

Brian Abrams [00:45:23]:
The shirts are it for us. We're doing some new things this year for the conference in Detroit. We're doing pink Run PMO shirts this year because the conference is in October, which is Breast Cancer Awareness Month. So we're going to tie that into Breast Cancer Awareness Month and make a donation to the American Breast Cancer Society for however many people wear the shirts at the conference.

Benjamin Mena [00:45:49]:
And you're also doing— are you allowed to talk about the other thing that you're doing?

Brian Abrams [00:45:52]:
Yeah, I'm going to talk about the other thing. So we're in Detroit. I'm not going to say exactly what it is, but we're in Detroit. We are going to do something 8 Mile themed. We're going to do an 8 Mile themed shirt for this year's conference. So, to my friends that are viewing this podcast that go to this conference, be on the lookout for something new. I'm about trying new things too, Ben. The Run PMO shirts are successful, so we're never going to not do that.

Brian Abrams [00:46:20]:
And every year someone new is like, oh my God, I just discovered these shirts. That's amazing. I always love it when they say, who's your marketing person? I'm like, well, yeah, I'm the marketing person. But yeah, we're going to do something Eminem themed. It's really cool. It's not fully developed yet, but people will know it when they see it. And by the way, I need to get you some shirts too.

Benjamin Mena [00:46:41]:
Sweet. Okay. So like looking at this, like you're now pushing your entire team to be in front of people more, not just only at conferences, but is this comfort thing actually a symptom of a bigger thesis for you of where recruiting is going in the future?

Brian Abrams [00:46:57]:
I think so. I think we're kind of approaching an AI bubble and a lot of, you know, a lot of hiring managers, like they just, they see the AI messages and they're a little worn out from it. Some of them could tell that they were written by ChatGPT. And I think we're kind of going back to the old days of just like some genuine interactions. With humans because people have got so accustomed to receiving electronic messages. But some of these like staffing firms that send out AI messages all over the place, and I'm not, I'm not against that because we do it too. But some of them only rely on it. Like they've forgotten how to talk to people in person.

Brian Abrams [00:47:39]:
They've forgotten how to make phone calls. And I think the people, you know, at least in the project management community that we work with, they really appreciate the in-person interaction. So yes, being at the conferences is big, but myself and my team are doing more to be in front of clients. We're scheduling client meetings again. I was talking to someone on my team today and we have a new candidate starting in a couple of weeks and she's going to go do an in-person walk-in for the first day. You know, get the candidate all settled in on his first day. Like, that art is just gone. Like, no one does that anymore.

Brian Abrams [00:48:21]:
So if that's going to help us stick out and have our clients think, wow, PMO Partners actually cares about showing up in person and having that human interaction, it's just going to make us stand out.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:33]:
That first day walk-in, is that local to you?

Brian Abrams [00:48:37]:
It is. Yes. Okay. Yes. It could only be possible if it was local. I don't think I'd fly someone out there for that. That's a little cost prohibitive, but yes, it is a local thing. And I thought since it's local, like, let's just do it.

Benjamin Mena [00:48:50]:
Okay. So I want to break this down for a recruiter that's listening, you know, for anybody out there that hasn't done a conference before, they have a tiny budget, maybe a few thousand dollars. If they only do 3 things from everything that you've laid out, what are the 3 and in what order?

Brian Abrams [00:49:09]:
Okay. Yeah, definitely the research, not just researching the event and make sure it's right for you. Okay. Make research the event and make sure that the people that you want to meet with are going to be there and research the, research the pricing too, right? It has to work, especially if you're new. I get it. I was there. You know, you have a limited budget. Do all, do your diligence and make sure that's the right one for you.

Brian Abrams [00:49:38]:
I would say again, be memorable. Think of something that's going to make you stick out from the 50 or maybe 100 other exhibitors that are there. Again, we're often explaining to people that we're a staffing firm. We're not here to sell software. Okay. How am I going to be memorable? Like the shirts. Think of what the shirt is for your industry. Think about the thing that's really going to stick out.

Brian Abrams [00:50:03]:
In your industry. And, you know, I'd say the third part is prepare for this just like I have. Again, you know, being someone who's done it for so long, it's very natural for me. But prepare your story, have that 30-second speech ready to discuss with the people that are coming up to your booth and kind of get them ready and say, Okay. Yeah, I'm going to want to talk to Benjamin. I'm going to want to talk to Brian in a couple of weeks because I think he's got a good story and he can help us.

Benjamin Mena [00:50:40]:
Before we jump over to the quickfire questions, and I got a few more conference questions that I've put into the quickfire questions, but is there anything else that I should have asked you a question on or something that we should have gone deeper on?

Brian Abrams [00:50:51]:
Not really. I think we did talk a little bit about the presentations and being a presenter at these conferences, showing your skillset, showing how you can add value to whatever community you're speaking with. I think that's important. And knowing what you want to bring to these conferences is important. Again, we talked about the shirts, but, you know, we bring brochures, we bring cards, we bring pens. All right. You're going to need stuff to hand out because people come up, they look at your booth and they look at your table. Before they even really look at you, they look at the booth, they look at the table, and, you know, people love free stuff, right? So you gotta understand, all right, what's the free stuff I'm gonna bring? And, you know, of course, how much is it gonna cost me, right? You know, you have to, you have to build it into your budget.

Brian Abrams [00:51:43]:
And again, I wanted to say, make the conferences part of your ecosystem, make it part of Your overall strategy for marketing and selling your services. It's not supposed to be viewed as just like an event. It's supposed to be part of how you're connecting with your community.

Benjamin Mena [00:52:06]:
What is the cheapest thing that you could do at a booth that outperforms the expensive stuff?

Brian Abrams [00:52:13]:
That I always think people like something that is Tangible. People love, believe it or not, still to this day, they love the footballs, the baseballs, something small that they could take with them, right? Not something that they're just gonna throw out, you know, because they could throw out, you know, a brochure, they could throw out our cards. But if they have a ball, they're gonna give it to their kids, they're gonna give it to their pets, whatever. So I think sometimes, you know, the simplest things are working. Work best. The pens work great. Pens, balls, things like that. And they have to be branded, of course.

Brian Abrams [00:52:52]:
You know, you have to have your logo on there. You have to have your contact information on there. Those sometimes mean just as much to people as like the, you know, the shirts, which, you know, is a much bigger expense for us.

Benjamin Mena [00:53:06]:
What is one booth tactic that you thought was going to be surefire and would work? But it actually flopped.

Brian Abrams [00:53:13]:
Going back to what I was saying about maybe being a little too stingy, we were giving out food at our booth for once. So we had like ballpark pretzels that we were giving out, but we didn't buy enough. And like other exhibitors were coming up and taking them. I was like, wait, no, don't take that pretzel. That's for High Rate Literature, right? So You know, I'd say, you know, if you're gonna do food, be prepared, or drinks. I saw once another exhibitor giving out shots. I thought that was pretty cool. At like towards the end of the day, they were giving out shots.

Brian Abrams [00:53:51]:
I thought, hey, that's not a bad idea, but especially after a long day. But anyways, I would say if you're going to do food, make sure you have enough for the hungry people that are gonna come up to you. It, we definitely riffed on that one.

Benjamin Mena [00:54:05]:
One that I actually loved that I picked up at a booth, uh, that I went to for the last conference, they had Liquid IV packets.

Brian Abrams [00:54:12]:
Huh?

Benjamin Mena [00:54:13]:
Yeah. I was like, oh my God, I'm so dehydrated. This is the best thing ever. Yeah.

Brian Abrams [00:54:18]:
Wow. Yeah. You see a lot of creative things. You know, we, we've been going with what works for us, you know, those shirts, but you definitely see a lot of creative things. And to my point earlier, it's about figuring out What's going to be creative for you and make you memorable?

Benjamin Mena [00:54:33]:
What is one person that's helped shape this idea?

Brian Abrams [00:54:37]:
Yeah, I got to give a lot of credit to my coach, Greg Dorsching, who I've worked with for many years. Certainly, he's exhibited at a lot of conferences in his niche, and he's picked up a lot of things over the years, and we've traded ideas, and he's given me a lot of good advice. So I wanted to credit Greg for helping me kind of solidify my game plan for conferences before, during, and after.

Benjamin Mena [00:55:09]:
Outside of conferences, I know you've had incredible growth and then the numbers were just like kind of blew me away. What's another thing outside of conferences that Greg has really helped move the needle for you?

Brian Abrams [00:55:22]:
Yeah, he helped me with team structure. That's been really important and really just kind of, you know, believing in me to make things grow. When I started my company, Ben, I thought I was just going to be a solo owner forever and then retire. But we started having so much success that I actually had to hire more. And I've never grown a company before. So Greg definitely helped me with company structure, getting the right people in place. He helped me with hiring as well. Um, he's helped me with some, um, technical stuff related to sequences and things like that.

Brian Abrams [00:56:05]:
Um, I definitely think it's important for staffing company owners to have a coach, and they can help you see your blind spots and help grow your organization. Certainly The proof is there that being coached by Greg has helped the company grow tremendously.

Benjamin Mena [00:56:21]:
If you could go back in time, like when you thought about you being a solo founder by yourself, that was your plan with everything that you've now gone through. Like, what would you go back in time and tell yourself?

Brian Abrams [00:56:34]:
I'd tell myself, you know, that, you know, you can do it and stay the course. I think a lot of solo owners were in the same spot I was thinking, I'm just going to do this by myself forever. But I saw an opportunity to really grow this company. We started getting bigger and bigger clients. I said, I need more. I can't do this myself. And again, I've never grown a company. I feel like that's one of the challenges I really like is taking this thing that was a 1-person thing, growing it now to a 7-person thing, and watching this team blossom.

Brian Abrams [00:57:14]:
And I have to admit, I've been really lucky over the years. I've added some amazing people to my team that I'm very proud to lead each and every day.

Benjamin Mena [00:57:25]:
And I know you don't go to that many recruiting conferences. I know you're hyperactive on LinkedIn within your niche, but you've gone to the SRA conference, you've gone to some other things. I'm sure because of Greg talking about you, you get asked questions about like, how do you like do this at the conference? What's your, like your sales pitch? How do you structure things? Like what's working for business development outside of conferences? All those questions that you typically get, you ever just like sit back and like wonder like, hey man, I wish the recruiter would just ask me this one question, but they never do. What would be that question?

Brian Abrams [00:57:59]:
Yeah. I'll say I get asked a lot about starting a staffing firm. And a lot of people outside of the staffing world ask me about it. They say, oh, you know, is this something I could do? I kind of tell people that weren't recruiters before that they probably want to get recruiting experience so they understand it before they start their own company. That's just my take on it. You know, again, I worked in staffing. For a long time before I decided to go out on my own. And I feel like that really kind of grounded me.

Brian Abrams [00:58:35]:
I think people that aren't in this world, they don't really get it. And then when they find out what it is, they quickly change direction. So I'd say, you know, I'd kind of gear that then towards people that maybe think this is easy. It's not easy. It's hard, you know, because you're, you're doing the same thing. Um, it takes a lot of fortitude. It takes a lot of drive. Um, and it's, um, not for everybody.

Brian Abrams [00:59:03]:
But I think, um, if you are someone that's in staffing and want to do it, I say go for it, you know, because it's added tremendous value to my life to be an independent, um, staffing firm owner, um, and, and work for myself.

Benjamin Mena [00:59:21]:
Awesome. Brian, 2 things before I let you go. First of all, if anybody wants to follow you or connect with you, how do they go about doing that?

Brian Abrams [00:59:28]:
Absolutely. Go to LinkedIn. I am all over LinkedIn, or you can go to the PMO Partners website. My contact information is there. I am intentionally very findable out there, so please get in touch. I'd be happy to connect.

Benjamin Mena [00:59:46]:
And is there anything else that you would love to listen— I can't even talk today. Is there anything else that you would love to leave with the listeners before you say goodbye?

Brian Abrams [00:59:56]:
Yeah, um, I am happy, uh, to provide advice to those that want to do this, that want to either A, start a staffing firm and were curious about my story. I do get that question a lot. And 2, about conferences, if it's something that you've been thinking about. And want to jump in, I'm absolutely happy to get on a call and tell you about my experiences because I want other people to have success with it too.

Benjamin Mena [01:00:21]:
And you've coached a few people on conference stuff recently too, right?

Brian Abrams [01:00:24]:
Yeah, I've talked to some friends in the industry that are looking to do it for the first time. They're asking me how to go about it. Everything from like, well, how do I even get in touch with the organization that, you know, I want to present, I want to have a booth at, you know, some Simple, simple stuff, right? Um, but you know, some people just don't know. I, I had to learn it on my own. So I want to kind of pay that forward.

Benjamin Mena [01:00:49]:
Awesome. Well, Brian, I just want to say thank you. Just like, I found it unbelievable. Everybody's like chasing AI. And at the moment of this recording, I'm also like prepping for an AI summit that I'm hosting. But I think people, especially our clients, are really looking for that real life That handshake, that real-life conversation. And if you can get— find a place where your entire niche is in one room or a few rooms, seems like a no-brainer.

Brian Abrams [01:01:19]:
Yeah, shake hands, being able to meet with these people, uh, face to face, put a face with a name, maybe see people that you've, um, only interacted with on the phone or maybe through LinkedIn. It's really You know, it's hard to measure. It's— and, you know, who doesn't like meeting with people in person, really? You know, it's just kind of a, a great thing for, you know, uh, human— just the human side of things to actually be in front of people. Uh, and we, you know, we love it.

Benjamin Mena [01:01:50]:
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