Building Your Team #6: Ask an HR Executive

What's up, everyone. This is Alex Lieberman, co-founder and Executive Chairman of Morning Brew. Welcome back to Founder’s Journal, my personal audio diary, where I give you the business builder, the tools you need to think better in order to build better, whether that's building a business, a team, or a new product. This is the final episode in our second ever miniseries of Founder’s Journal. As reminder, this week, we are focused on one crucial topic in business, which is Building Your Team. Today, I am beyond excited to be chatting with Morning Brew’s Head of People, Kate Noel, to talk about how to attract and nurture great talent in a business.

Let's hop into it.

Alex Lieberman: Kate, great to have you on the show. 

Kate Noel: Happy to be here. Thanks for the invite; it’s a golden ticket.

AL: So we're going to cover three different topics in this conversation. The first is recruiting. The second is actually getting hired, and the third is what happens after you hire someone. Okay? So we're going to tackle recruiting first. From your experience, what is the best way to find talent in a business, and especially for a company that isn't like Morning Brew that has a list of 3 million people that we can always use to market our roles. How do you go about finding great talent?

KN: I mean that's a great question. I mean, great talent is important to even understand the definition of, because “great” means it makes sense for your culture. So seeing the spaces that your company would naturally be a part of can be the places that you find people. So if you are a business that has a presence online in certain Facebook groups and certain job boards, that can be a starting point for any business owner, recruiter, or head of talent to get a move on. And then just having networks. LinkedIn is a great space to create conversations with people who can be, you know, their own head of talent, recruiters that are there externally, there are just a myriad of ways to get that going. And then once you establish that relationship, it just continues on in itself with that relationship. So assuming you don't just have one role open for the entire history of the company, you're going to revisit those places, so it certainly makes the process a little easier each time.

AL: And you know, one thing that I've learned over the years with the Brew is that, like, recruiting is an arduous process. Like it takes a shit ton of time. 

KN: [laughing] Yeah, it does.

AL: So how do you think about when it makes sense, A to have any sort of recruiting help? Right. So to go from being a founder or a manager that's literally pounding the pavement, doing outreach yourself to having, call it an internal or external recruiter. And when does it make sense to definitely have a full-time employee in house that is your in-house recruiter? How do you think about that?

KN: So your first question, before going ahead and just having a recruiter and having it outside of yourself as a founder, I think it's good for like the beginning stages. And that will be up to the founder to define what beginning means to have like your founding people, your initial people. But once you get to a space where one, you may want to start recruiting more senior executive level professionals, external recruiting might be a great avenue for you because they already have the network that the founder may not have. And they already have a vetting process that we are assuming is tried and true because if they have their own success metrics,, which you can ask them what those metrics are, that can be applied to your own business, I would strongly recommend doing internal recruiting if you have a big emphasis on culture, because at the end of the day, an external recruiter will probably have multiple clients. So the same type of attention an internal recruiter will be able to give to just your positions only because they're here in a full-time capacity, permanent capacity, that special touch and attention to detail will not be found as much with an external recruiter. And then plus there's nothing better than learning something new than by being immersed in it. So having a recruiter, being a part of the onboarding process, because they're a part of your team now, so they know how to talk to others when they're now on the other side of the conversation, they know the nuances that can't be described in the job description, because they've had the conversation with the manager, they know the manager's temperament, personality, and how that translates into the workplace. So it just makes it to be a more engaging or robust experience when it is someone internally.

AL: One last question on this point about recruiters, because while it can be very much in the weeds, I think it's important for companies to think about. Does it ever make sense, say to your point, you bring in an internal recruiter because you think culture is really important and you want someone whose full-time job is recruiting people that embody the values of the business—does it make sense to ever hire an external recruiter, even when you have an internal, recruiter? 

KN: Oh, no, because if you have an external recruiter, they could be a supplement to the internal recruiter that you have. And then also a recruiter is not only there internally to serve in the tactical perspective of just filling in roles and making sure your day's open for role decreases and all that stuff. When you have the right kind of recruiter or someone in talent acquisition, they are also supporting the strategy of having a great recruiting process overall. So whether it's like making sure that the interview score cards go well, making that, making sure that DEI is a metric that is being pushed and accountability is being there. And sometimes to allow an internal recruiter to do that would offer the opportunity for an external recruiter to come in. And it's just based on what you need. So the great thing about external is that you could pick it up, pick it down, based on what the business need is and what makes sense, and you still have your home-base with your internal recruiter back at the workplace.

AL: Yeah, I think, I think that makes total sense. And the last point I'll make there is, oftentimes external recruiters may also have like more specialized talent pools that they can pull from. So right. if you're hiring executive talent or say you're focusing on like, development or engineering talent, external recruiters may just have a more specialized and deeper pipeline that your internal recruiter may not have.

KN: And that's correct. And especially when it comes to specialization. So

AL: One last question for you. And then I want to move on to getting hired is before even doing the recruiting, like reaching out on LinkedIn marketing and Morning Brew’s newsletter, what do you expect of every hiring manager to tell you, or show you before you feel comfortable saying, hey, we should go out and recruit for this role,

KN: The business need. If you're able to show the context in which the person will be operating once they're hired and it's a long-term solution and not just a short-term solution to a problem that's at hand, that makes me feel comfortable. And if it is a short-term solution, let's make sure that we're structuring the role in the way it should be. So if it's full-time, if it's temporary, let's just make sure it makes sense for the overall strategy of the business and make sure it can scale accordingly.

AL: Love it. Okay, great. So we've talked about the actual recruiting process. Now I want to move onto the interview, but first, a quick break. Okay. So we talked a little bit about recruiting. Let's move on to getting hired, and I want to talk about it from the perspective of someone interviewing from a job, as well as from the perspective of, you know, the hiring manager or the company. My first question is, you know, typically in a, an interview process, a candidate, if they go far in the process, will talk to many people. And oftentimes early in the process, they'll talk to someone from HR. How should interviewees prepare specifically for interviews with HR professionals and how does that differ from say other professionals in the business that interview them?

KN: Well, probably for an HR person, there's going to be a strong emphasis on culture. So the way that an interviewee can come in prepared and feeling like they have all the information they need, do your research. Look up online, if it's possible, you know, any social media presence or online presence that the business may have, so you can have questions prepared that can speak to the culture and typically, or at least it should get an HR person excited to share with them. And then also do your research on the actual person themselves. So HR is, is a pretty wide function, but learning what the history, whether it's career progression or even just personally what the HR person has gone through, that you're going to be speaking to, asking them about their own journey and how that translated into where they are today is a great question to start and have opened for them.

AL: Love it. So do your homework and know that emphasis is generally going to be heavy on behavioral and cultural questions relative to say other interviews you have within a company. I want to talk about one of the stickiest topics in an interview process, which is comp, right. I think people interviewing for jobs never know the right time to talk about comp. If they talk about it too early, they get worried that they seem like they're only in it for the money. If they talk about it too late, they worry that, did I just waste an entire interview process if I end up finding out that the company is looking to pay something that is totally out of what is realistic for me. When is the right time to talk about comp and what is the right way to talk about it?

KN: The answer to that isn't a textbook answer, it really is just on perspective. So I can only speak on what I think. And for me, I'm, I'm a person I would have rather have the conversation earlier than later, just because I know that, although you don't want to seem like you're being led by conversation of comp, but it's a, it's an important factor. It's kind of weird that people try to pretend that it isn't. It may not be the most important, but it's certainly probably your top five and not top five. So if you're nervous about speaking directly to an exact number or what the total comp could be, if that's being a question posed to you earlier on, you can always flip it back to the recruiter and say, I'm comfortable in learning more about what may be budgeted based on the total comp. And what's marketable right now for the range of this role. Or if it's later on in the conversation of interviewing process, you probably should speak more directly to it because if you're a final candidate, you want to make sure there's alignment there. But me personally, I would rather it sooner than later.

AL: So I want to flip it to the, the manager's perspective now, because I think you and I have actually had conversations about this in the past, but there's certain literally like rules around how you can talk about comp or past comp with candidates. So for managers who are thinking about hiring someone and say in their head, they're like, we want to make sure we're compensating someone fairly, but we want to make sure it's like in the same strategy or we're not overpaying them for the sake of overpaying them. Is a hiring manager allowed to ask a candidate either what they want to be paid or what they're currently paid? What's the rule around that? 

KN: Okay. So you can ask what their salary requirements are. You cannot ask what you've made in the past, or where are you right now in your, your package. That that is not allowed, listen to your HR person, do not ask that, but what, you can say, what are the salary requirements based on your understanding of this role, in what we're looking for in job expectations that you're looking for and your next opportunity, you can certainly ask that.

AL: I love that. And honestly, I think it's such a helpful insight because I didn't even know that was a rule until you had told me earlier in the journey of the company. So I appreciate that. 

KN: Of course. 

AL: Two more questions on the topic of getting hired. The first is one that we've actually done a past Founder’s Journal episode on, and I always have mixed feelings about it, which is reference checks. Reference checks are just like a, an age-old part of the interview process. But part of me has always been like, when I do reference checks, I feel like I learned nothing. I go into a reference check, a candidate tells me who their references are and I end up hitting up their references. And they're like, so-and-so is like the best thing since sliced bread. They're a top-five person I've ever worked with in my life. Do you think reference checks provide value and if you think they do, how do you get the most value out of a reference check?

KN: I think it can, but I also get where you're coming from because there is a larger issue at hand, if someone does furnish their own list of recommendations or referrals and like the referrals said something wild about them. Just like, okay, a bullet was dodged here.

AL: Yeah. 

KN: But I do think there is some value in receiving that because there are questions that maybe you could not ask the person being interviewed directly, that you can get a different perspective from whoever that they furnished as a referral. So for me, I feel like if we do have an opportunity to ask for referrals and we want something insightful to come from it, I like to give the task if it's applicable, for people to give referrals at different levels. So instead of just saying, can you provide three to five referral references for us to reach out to, and we'll do our thing, sometimes I like to say, well, can you give us a reference of someone who has a direct manager, a reference of someone who was a peer, a reference of someone who is a job or two away from where you are right now? I think that speaks to the relationships that were, they were able to hold onto. And it may cause them to mix up the bag a little bit from the stock folk that they have on the sides who have considered for the interview. If you kind of mix things up a bit based on the requirements we have for references.

AL: One final question on that, do you think it's a yes or no to the idea of through your network, getting connected to someone at the company of the person who you're interviewing, but they didn't list as a reference, basically someone who wasn't listed as a reference, but has work experience with them. Is it kosher to find someone like that to reach out to them or no?

KN: As an human resource professional, I will actually say publicly, I cannot comment on said comment, but I think it's a fantastic question to talk about amongst friends.

AL: Awesome. Okay. We are going to move on to the final part of the conversation, which is next steps. And next steps, what that means is you've done your recruiting. You've run the interview process. You've extended an offer. The offer has been accepted. My final question for you is both from the perspective of the new employee, as well as the manager, what are the most important things to keep in mind, to make the first few weeks go smoothly for a new employee?

KN: I mean, onboarding. A lot of that comes from a structure that HR creates. So the HR person really should be working with the manager of what would be considered key priorities, the right people for the person who's starting to meet with, meet everyone, consider it like a sponge week, be more of a listener than a speaker and make connections. I know it might be a little bit difficult, especially if you are virtual, but there are spaces hopefully that exist within your business where you can meet other people who are new, like you, or just have your HR person set them up for you, if it's possible.

AL: What's one thing we do at Morning Brew in onboarding that you think is a really special touch that makes the experience great for new hires?

KN: Well actually, we created a moment called Coffee Chats, which is, well, actually it's Donut. It's a Slack channel that allows new hires to be included in the Slack where they're just randomly grouped up with like five other people outside of their department. It happens every other week and they're automatically put into that Slack channel. And what makes that great is that we've had feedback that sometimes it can feel a little overwhelming, feeling the necessary need to just meet everyone all at the same time, but it's a pretty low level, super light, super informal way to meet different people, get different perspectives, and it just creates group settings that again, it can, it can kind of be hard to find if you're behind your computer screen at home. So, so far we've gotten great feedback on that.

AL: Amazing. Well, as I'm sure everyone listening to the episode can tell, you know, while a lot of us believe that building a great team and hiring great people is an art, there is absolutely a science to it. If you've listened to what Kate said, like there is a method to the madness of attracting and nurturing new employees. And so I hope through talking about recruiting, getting hired, and then how to onboard properly, this has leveled up your own thinking about building a great team at your company. So, Kate Noel, thank you so much for joining Founder’s Journal. 

KN: Very welcome. 

AL: Awesome. Now I would love to hear from you, Founder’s Journal listeners, as it relates to building a great team or the people and culture part of your business. What is the number one challenge you have witnessed as a manager, a founder, or a professional? Send an email to alex@morningbrew.com or DM me on Twitter @businessbarista with your number one challenge, and I'd love to chat about it with you. And finally, if you enjoyed the episode, please leave a review for Founder’s Journal on Apple Podcasts. It is the number one way to grow the show, so I'd love for you to help me and this community get to 750 reviews for the pod. Our show is produced and engineered by Dan Bauza. Our associate producer is Bella Hutchins. Brian Henry is our executive producer. Alan Haburchak is Morning Brew’s director of audio. Holly Van Leuven is our fact checker. And I'm your host, Alex Lieberman. Thank you so much as always for listening.