#33 | Passive House: Precision, Proof, and Performance with Dr Marcus Strang

Jess Kismet (00:10.164)

Okay. Hello and welcome to the Building Sciology Poddie where we talk about better buildings to live and breathe in. Today I am joined by Marcus Strang, technical lead for Passive House at Hip V Hype in Melbourne, teacher at the APA and researcher at the University of Queensland. Marcus is passionate, Marcus is a passionate advocate for sustainable design and is one of only five Passive House certifiers in the whole of Australia.

Marcus has a highly technical mind and a very patient nature to boot. he's an extremely valuable research. Marcus Marcus has a highly technical mind and a very patient nature to boot. So he is an extremely valuable resource in this highly specialized field. Marcus is a great teacher, mentor and consultant and I enjoy working with him on our certified Passive House projects at Climasure So I am pleased to welcome you today to this podcast for a chat Marcus.

Marcus Strang (01:06.542)

Thank you very much, Jessica. That's very kind and I've really enjoyed working with you as

Jess Kismet (01:08.116)

Mm.

Excellent. Okay, so let's just grease the wheels for the listeners who might not know you or be as familiar with your work as I am. Could you explain a bit about what you do and what passive power certification involves beyond just basic energy efficiency?

Marcus Strang (01:27.95)

So just to explain a bit more about Passive House certification. So certification is a, sorry, Certification by a certifier is mandatory for a certified Passive House's building. So it's completely up to the owner to make the choice to target certification. And the key benefit of engaging a certifier is actually primarily for quality assurance. As the certification process proceeds from the knowledge that errors and emissions can occur in every human interaction.

Therefore, it be seen as good professional practice that counter checking is carried out for rigorous independent third party review process with the sole purpose to secure the best possible outcome. So if a building is just Passive House principles or an eco-friendly home, it won't really undergo this rigorous certification check and without it, none of the Passive House outcomes are certain. So unfortunately, it's probably likely one, if not all of the Passive House outcomes won't be met, know, it's non-certified builds.

So if certification is not pursued, compromises will likely be made accidentally or by design during the design or delivery leading to sub-prime outcomes for client. Where not getting it right locks in these mistakes for quite a long time. So for these reasons, I always highly recommend engaging a passive house certifier so that owner can be assured the final passive power outcomes for excellent energy efficiency, optimal thermal comfort, appropriately sized systems, and a high degree of acceptance by users.

I'd also just quickly add there as well that in my experience, what people certify it's to get value out of the effort they've put in and to hold their contractors to account. And when certification isn't pursued, it's often due to the fact that compromises have been made at some stage during the delivery of the building. And it's probably actually no longer certifiable with the Passive House standard. It's just a bit of a overview of why I think certification is of value.

Jess Kismet (03:23.58)

Yeah, there's no certification process really for national construction code projects. There's not as many checks and balances. And I know that's pretty much the sole reason I moved over into this space is because my experience in the energy, just the building code energy efficiency space left me feeling really frustrated because I came across many projects that were in like the stages in design and construct and energy assessment were not lining up.

Marcus Strang (03:53.583)

100 % agree. Yeah, those things associated with energy efficiency can easily be externalized and suddenly no one's really considering them or looking at

Jess Kismet (03:53.692)

And so I was like.

Jess Kismet (04:04.764)

Yeah, yeah, so many things. I mean, simple things like window sizes being changed, and not being amended on the energy certificate in a living area can have a significant impact on heat loss and heat gain. And people just shrug and they don't even know they need to have that taken into consideration in their energy assessments. And this happened time and time again for me and I was just, you know, things like on the plan by owner after handover.

we would model those on our energy assessments and they wouldn't necessarily get done by the owner after handover. Things like external shading or things like ceiling fans or floor coverings that all actually impact the star rating outcome. We had no idea if they were really happening on site. We had no idea if the right windows were being ordered or not. I suspect often they weren't. And I think that the star rating certificate

people don't understand or it's maybe dismissed more than it should be as an actual specification document, as an important document that tells you valuable information about what needs to go into your home. So the Passive House certification process means that you actually get what you designed. Why can't we have something like that for National Construction Codes houses?

Marcus Strang (05:21.142)

Exactly.

Marcus Strang (05:26.062)

I guess the intent is there, but I think it doesn't really carry across to practice and into what we see on site, unfortunately.

Jess Kismet (05:34.268)

No, that's not just not having those, not, having checks, not, not being confident that you're going to get what you designed is, don't know. Does that happen anywhere else? Does that happen in any other industry apart from our industry?

Marcus Strang (05:37.677)

the

Marcus Strang (05:51.246)

I'd be surprised if it happens to the degree that happens in the construction industry.

Jess Kismet (05:57.788)

Yeah, yeah. It's really frustrating. And it's frustrating for the homeowner because they're putting in so much money into these projects and so much heart and soul and effort and time and sleepless nights. you know, there's no guarantees they'll actually get what they're paying for. So you're one of only five certifiers in Australia. This is a highly, highly specialized qualification.

Marcus Strang (06:12.366)

When you don't know exactly.

Jess Kismet (06:24.084)

What was the motivation for you behind becoming a certified Passive House certifier, not just to consult with a designer like myself. And how do you actually become one?

Marcus Strang (06:34.296)

So I think some of my underlying motivation in that space grew from a number of key experiences that I had during my, actually my master's studies. So just like I remember some really inspiring physics lectures, and I worked on an Earthship for some time, visited permaculture gardens, acted as a researcher in a biomass gasifier in Thailand and went on a community biomass gasifier.

Jess Kismet (06:57.298)

You what?

Marcus Strang (07:02.254)

I was there. It's a fun little stint in Chiang Mai. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, so I it's like a gasifier, something that takes biomass like bamboo or like timber from furniture and takes the methane out and convert that to an energy source. it was used as like a... Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, fun little project there. I was looking at like a...

Jess Kismet (07:05.532)

Wow. You might have to tell me what that is.

Jess Kismet (07:22.557)

Methane out of bamboo.

Jess Kismet (07:28.51)

Wow.

Marcus Strang (07:31.023)

community-sized practical thing. Like I was still very much a student, so it was a fun little research project to actually go over and to be there for. And then, yeah, on exchange in Germany, just touring a lot of highly-energy-efficient buildings and districts, and they all kind of shaped my passion towards learning about more environmentally sustainable buildings and technologies. And after my studies, I reached out with Claire Perry.

Jess Kismet (07:37.811)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (07:41.384)

Yeah, well.

Jess Kismet (07:57.491)

Yeah.

Marcus Strang (08:00.654)

who's one of who at the stage was one of two pass about certifiers Claire just started her own consultancy Gruen consulting and then from 2015 onwards I worked on a whole bunch of types of Passive House projects and then I could be high in 2021 I went through the set of the certifiers accreditation training Institute after I had the minimum number of certified projects my name

Jess Kismet (08:26.824)

What is the minimum number?

Marcus Strang (08:28.494)

So I think they really just want to see at least three. think at that stage I had more than that, but that's, I think that's just to show that you had kind of go through that process, were comfortable with the process. And that's, yeah, I guess you have like a demand of projects that you can follow through with. So yeah, so that was, I think really the motivation was for that, for taking that course. But generally was allow me to continue.

Jess Kismet (08:32.265)

Mm-hmm.

Marcus Strang (08:56.738)

and practice building physics and this kind of leading edge space within environmentally sustainable buildings. And I feel that's a lot of what draws yourself and I'm sure your listeners to this space as well.

Jess Kismet (09:10.608)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, it's pretty special being one of only five.

Marcus Strang (09:16.206)

Thank you.

Jess Kismet (09:20.22)

what are the, did you, when you became a certifier, did you start to understand, like, did that increase your understanding of Passive House at all? Like, is that, you learn more about the PHPP and about the certification process or did you already, we already across most of it?

Marcus Strang (09:39.695)

I think it's, just a learning process. I'm always like, I'm sure every project you, you learn about PHPP or about Passive House in some way on every single project. And it's very much the same for me as well as every, every single project, whether it's small or big or in typology or has a unique element to it. There's always some learning aspect to it. I've got a really know about it. so, yeah, I would still say that's that continues to this day and I'm sure, and I hope we'll continue, progressing.

able to share those learnings with the passive house designers I work through, directly or through documentation that I can share and provide.

Jess Kismet (10:21.426)

Yeah, because going through the PHPP I mean, I've got five, two finished and three happening at the moment. And the PHPP, no matter how many times I look at it, I still feel like it's this vortex of information that I'm never going to fully understand. I'm like, Marcus, what does this mean? Marcus, what does that mean?

Marcus Strang (10:34.509)

Mm-hmm.

Marcus Strang (10:38.21)

Yeah, I mean, like, that's, that's all good. That's, yeah, I mean, that's what we're here for as a network to learn from each other. But I think, yeah, I mean, there's, yeah, there's so much that goes into the PHPP and it's a beautiful bit of software that we can open up and delve into. And ultimately, it is just all those calculations we learned through the Passive House Designer course. But then obviously a lot more in there as well. So it is nice that it, yeah.

Jess Kismet (11:04.444)

Yeah, there's so much more in there than we cover in the course. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you think are some of the most common challenges that you see on the path from like pathway through to certification for Passive House projects?

Marcus Strang (11:06.926)

There's an open box. yeah, for sure.

Marcus Strang (11:22.958)

I would say that the most challenging part of certification is those projects that come out of the blue. So sometimes they might just appear years after we've been engaged as a certifier where the project is now fully formed, fully constructed. And this can compose some pretty challenging aspects where there might be a number of significant modeling issues that needs to be resolved or documentation that's not available or modeling that hasn't been done. And any of those errors could be a risk for non-compliance.

So always the earlier these experts can be involved and ideally having those review cycles frequently or earlier would resolve those and give confidence to the client and give confidence to the design team.

Jess Kismet (12:11.42)

Yeah, so that before you start on site, ideally, you should have what's called a design stage assurance letter, which means that you've checked through every tab of the PHPP and you have determined that all the documentation is correct, the modeling is correct, and it's okay to be built exactly as it's designed and modeled. Are you saying that some people come to you with a fully built house and say, can we certify this now?

Marcus Strang (12:30.381)

Yeah.

Marcus Strang (12:36.462)

Yeah, or halfway through the construction and like, oh, you know, maybe I haven't reviewed it since the initial review. as you know, that they haven't had that they haven't done a thermal bridge modeling, they haven't specified windows, or there's just been a limited review there. that's, yeah, I definitely that's the design stage assurance letter that that is been something that I've been recommending over the past few years, because I think it is a value add to the client.

Jess Kismet (12:52.616)

involvement.

Marcus Strang (13:05.282)

give everyone confidence and to show that it's proceeding in a smooth manner towards certification so everyone can rest easy and we all kind know where we are.

Jess Kismet (13:14.564)

Yeah. Yeah, I to say that was one of the lessons I learned early, is getting that design stage letter before you start on site because there's got to be a lot of really tight communication to make sure that everything that's in that documentation actually gets built. And if your team has any doubt whatsoever, you could very easily miss something. And so yeah, from, you know, out of my learnings, I no longer allow my clients to start on site until I have that letter.

Marcus Strang (13:41.775)

Yeah, I think it just removes a lot of the inherent ambiguity in the process like this, where you only really get certification at the end, just to provide some, okay, well, this is where we sit and we'll compliment that that that process is being followed before the final blow it has been checked. yeah, definitely recommend.

Jess Kismet (14:02.972)

Yeah. Yep. Yeah, for sure. For sure. There's, I actually think that it makes it easier. think the Passive House modeling makes it actually easier to build a house than a standard project because everything is sorted out. Like everything is dialed away. Everything is sorted out before you start. there's very little ambiguity once you get on site with the certified Passive House project.

I heard Matt Carland from Carland Construction say that once, actually certified passive houses have economies purely because there's on site and the documentation is followed to the letter.

Marcus Strang (14:43.822)

Yep. I agree. So that's, that's, you know, Matt's done a lot of passive houses and he has his process. And I think that's that, that kind of understanding comes from working on a few Passive House projects and kind of knowing where to go and step through that process. And yeah, I definitely agree that then, then we have the correct documentation. We've got everything there. So when the builders do get on site, makes it really easy for them because they're not guessing or having to try and formulate some plan because it's already there.

Jess Kismet (14:47.72)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (15:12.412)

Yeah, and those crucial details are already drawn. They don't have to make it up on site or work it out. You know, there's crucial details that could create a thermal bridge that have been drawn and modeled and you know that that's going to be corrected. It's not going to trip you up. So yeah, there's definitely a lot of value in the documentation process.

Marcus Strang (15:27.394)

Yep, couldn't agree more.

Jess Kismet (15:38.812)

So apart from people coming to you with not enough or insufficient checks in their sort of modeling and not getting checked along their construction timeline, is there anything in the actual Passive House framework that trips people up, especially when they first start? What things normally trip people up?

Marcus Strang (16:05.806)

so I think, yeah, having that experienced design team is probably the most difference between teams that kind of just sail through or not. so for teams that take on their first Passive House projects, having the certify involved early on to add that guidance is pretty critical for success. where if they've gone through that process before a few times, then they might not need so much guidance. but yeah, as we're about the high quality documentation.

definitely differentiates teams that are going to really sail through or perhaps not, where they've looked at that detailing of junctions, formulated that air tightness concept, mitigated thermal bridging, and specified insulation products and other products as well. And so without that level of detail, errors can be much more frequently made. yeah, again, touch on it.

the ones that build this, so they're really great at coming up with economic solutions that are practical. So that early contractor engagement is definitely a value add too.

Jess Kismet (17:12.22)

Yeah. So basically it's just inexperience. Once you, once you know this process, it's, you don't really, you don't really get tripped up because everything's pre-planned. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, out of that, your advice would be when you're starting out, just go slow and get, get, get the involvement of your certifier, at sort of a much higher level than you would need down the track.

Marcus Strang (17:20.632)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that risk just continues to fall down. Absolutely.

Marcus Strang (17:39.436)

Yeah. And I actually think that what you mentioned there about going slow, think that's a really, yeah. Giving, giving the time that you really do need to, to kind of go through, go through, go through the PHPP and resolving issues, just giving that time so you don't miss something. I think that's a really good touch on there as well.

Jess Kismet (17:55.049)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I can attest out of, from personal experience that having, having you there to check things that I'm not sure of definitely helps. And it's taught me, know, it's taught me a lot as I've gone along these projects that I'm doing. Yeah. Making sure that I don't rush is definitely something that I have learned and yeah, not, not avoiding things that might seem tricky. Just ask the questions.

Marcus Strang (18:19.295)

Good to hear.

Yep, that's what we're here for. And it's really is to support and like we all want the project to succeed. Ideally, you know, we're doing that smoothly and quickly, but we do want it to succeed and do that and kind of bring it all up together.

Jess Kismet (18:39.132)

Yeah, and often like, you know, my clients, they want to start on site and they're antsy, they want to start moving. But yeah, in the early stages, it's, it's important to not rush for sure. So this whole Australian climate construction industry, we don't need Passive House in our climate sort of saga.

How does that perception or how does our climate shape the way you approach Passive House as opposed to European countries?

Marcus Strang (19:13.966)

so, mean, we all hopefully very aware that Passive House projects have to be adapted to the climate in which they're located. So the Passive House PHPP modeling software really enforces this climate specific design response. So the passive houses in Australia, this climate response, can translate to passive houses that don't require such high thermally performing thermal envelopes and as might be required in Europe.

While the form factors of our Passive House buildings are typically larger and more articulated to reflect our cultural building style compared to European projects. And then I guess probably within that as well, buildings in Australia typically highlight more of an indoor-outdoor sort of living due to our Australian climate. But again, that's really not a restriction. So in Passive House buildings, we can open up the doors, open up the windows when we desire.

But when we do close it down, it's going to allow that really high level of thermal comforts and resilience during peak heating and cooling conditions with minimal energy consumption during those times.

Jess Kismet (20:20.912)

Yep. So the PHPP has got climate files the same way NatHERS has got climate files. So we're not designing a house for a European climate, we're designing a house for the local climate.

Marcus Strang (20:32.814)

That's exactly right. yeah, so it is a climate specific response and like a Passive House at Sydney is going to be different and it's not going to require the same sort of performance as something in more alpine climates in Victoria. we can make it easier, makes it cheaper because it's responding to that local.

Jess Kismet (20:55.91)

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and even a project I've got at the moment, it's in northern New South Wales, where they have a lot of humidity issues. And, you know, depending on how the model is performing and how many windows are open and, you know, various different factors in the PHPP it will trigger the need for dehumidification, which we were discussing today. So, yeah, I think maybe that's something that is

misunderstood that Passive House actually has weather files, has climate files.

Marcus Strang (21:27.63)

Yeah, I think that's because of the way the caps are set, just that you think a lot of people think it is so rigid, but because it's responding to those climate files, it's actually it is climate specific. And that's how we do want to build a building because it means in arctic locations, you're to have comparatively large walls, but in very mild climates, you can get away with much, less. I think there is definitely some confusion there.

Jess Kismet (21:35.284)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (21:48.988)

Much lighter walls. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, for sure. Now you mentioned form factor earlier a second ago. Could you explain what that is, please?

Marcus Strang (21:59.949)

Yeah, sure. So I think it's a pretty key concept of, I guess, energy efficiency in buildings. So ideally, the lowest form factor is just a sphere compared to like its volume, but in a building. like, this is why you end up seeing a lot of passive houses, especially early on, that are very blocky. very like the rectangular kind of cube has a very low form factor because its external surfaces.

quite like the ratio of external surface compared to the volume is quite small. Whereas if you have really large articulated buildings with wings going out that way and it's going out that way and garages inside and courtyards and things like that, that's a lot of envelope kind of surface area compared to the ratio of indoor area. So that's all going to, if the lower that form factor is the

less we need to compromise on the thermal envelope. So just means we can make that building cheaper for the same energy efficiency. So if you have really, really large, articulate buildings, we need to put more insulation in and higher performing windows for the exact same energy performance outcome. So it's a useful.

Jess Kismet (23:13.8)

So it's kind of a ratio between, sorry, what was that?

Marcus Strang (23:17.421)

yeah, please go.

Jess Kismet (23:18.758)

It's a ratio between surface area and indoor volume.

Marcus Strang (23:23.244)

Yeah, like the one that Passive House uses is out the external area surface over the treated floor area. So Passive House has very specific definition for the TFA, the treated floor area. But yeah, we can also look at it.

Jess Kismet (23:45.766)

Okay. And the lower than the form factor, the more efficient the envelope is going to be.

And does that have any impact on the heating and cooling demand? Like if you have a more complex envelope and a higher form factor, that makes it harder to achieve the heating and cooling demand requirements, is that right?

Marcus Strang (24:11.276)

Yeah, that's absolutely right. Because you may have twice as much wall areas, floor areas, roof areas compared. So if you're talking about it, we can think we can think about a detached dwelling, like a one story detached dwelling. If you have three stories as a comparison, there's going to be half as many surface areas which are all losing heat in winter or gaining heat in summer.

there may be twice as much thermal bridges, which we have to consider. it's twice as much area for infiltration to occur. So it just on many different levels, simplifying the building the thermal envelope. And that's really probably one of the key concepts of our standard is a really tight consideration of the thermal envelope, the area between conditioned and unconditioned spaces.

Jess Kismet (24:40.669)

Yeah.

Marcus Strang (25:03.618)

think like you were saying, once you get that concept, it just makes a lot of sense from the builder's point of view, from the designer's point of view, with just looking at that separation between the conditioned and unconditioned zones, compared to say NatHERS which has a lot of spaces, which can be 13 degrees indoors. And I guess there's less of that kind of concept of that thermal envelope being the separation.

Jess Kismet (25:09.044)

Mm.

Jess Kismet (25:32.486)

Yeah. So, that's not to say that complicated building can't be certified. It's just might be a little bit harder and more expensive. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. All right. Speaking of climates, you have finished your PhD on hot Passive House in hot human climates. Was that a couple of years ago now?

Marcus Strang (25:36.718)

Exactly,

Marcus Strang (25:53.23)

Yeah, I think it's getting on already.

Jess Kismet (25:55.348)

Yeah, time flies. I mean, Passive House is often described as overkill in the general Australian climate, let alone warm climates. So could you synthesize what your research found in your PhD research? What did you find about Passive House in hot humid climates?

Marcus Strang (26:16.142)

So while I would say Australian climate is milder compared to colder European climates, the energy demand reductions for Passive House projects in Australia is still significant compared to the equivalent conventional buildings in Australia. So for instance, for the heating demand, going from a conventional NCC compliant building, so in seven stars, two Passive House still will grant you 80 to 90 % reduction for that heating demand and about 50 to

50 to 60 % for the cooling demand. So that's still a huge chunk, which we can just slice straight off from going to Passive House. So I wouldn't personally consider those energy savings being overkill, especially if we're looking at the future with more extreme weather events. But yeah, so then in my PhD research, that my thesis explored Passive House projects in subtropical and tropical climates.

Jess Kismet (26:54.878)

Yeah, right.

Marcus Strang (27:11.778)

and show that several considerations when necessary to optimize thermal comfort energy efficiency and to try and mitigate those risks against overheating during summer. that should be prioritized through strategies like external shading, overhangs, blinds, night purge, glazing with low G values. And probably a key one is minimizing internal heat gains while further reducing sensible and latent cooling demands.

can also be achieved with mechanical ventilation units with enthalpy cores. While as we spoke on earlier, the humidification systems might be necessary for comfort and hygiene as well. From a thermal envelope perspective, thermal bridging doesn't have quite the same influence compared to cold climates. But yeah, a key part of that PhD research was also looking into strategies for moisture safety in high-performance multi-storey buildings with mass timber envelopes.

Jess Kismet (27:57.832)

Mm-hmm.

Marcus Strang (28:08.47)

of CLT and some of the findings from that was looking at the control layer control layers and that the air and vapor barriers should actually be positioned on the external surface of the insulation which is in contrast to temperate climates where you generally where you we want that air and vapor barrier on the internal side of the insulation layer. So yeah it's really kind of practical thesis I think it has really given me a lot of

Jess Kismet (28:30.824)

Mm-hmm.

Marcus Strang (28:37.89)

Yeah, extra kind of time and to invest into learning more about the Passive House standards and building physics in general. So yeah, very happy to have the opportunity to dig into something like that.

Jess Kismet (28:50.674)

Yeah, yeah. And just side note, I should have introduced you as Dr. Marcus Strang. I do apologize. No, I don't doubt that. I was going to say about the humidity. I think the humidity factor in Queensland is, don't know, did they not even, because they are in it all the time, they don't realize it exists or something? I don't know. No offense to any Queenslanders. I lived in Queensland for many years. I love the place, but-

Marcus Strang (28:54.572)

That's quite okay. Thank you very much.

It never gets old.

Hahaha!

Jess Kismet (29:20.852)

I had a guest on the podcast, which hasn't been published yet, recorded it yesterday, and she had a holiday home in Northern New South Wales, and it's closed up for five days of the week and rented out on weekends. And she discovered recently that because it's closed up and there's no air movement, the whole place has gone moldy inside. Definitely not a Passive House. And I'm like, my goodness. So there must be all this humidity just...

Marcus Strang (29:41.422)

Definitely not the passive fails.

Jess Kismet (29:48.102)

infiltrating that envelope and getting stuck in there and just sucking up into the plasterboard and all of the porous surfaces and creating an absolute remediation mess for her and her husband. And that to me would be a very good reason to have a certified Passive House in Queensland, just to control your indoor humidity and control your building health. Right?

Marcus Strang (29:52.846)

Hmm.

Marcus Strang (29:59.916)

and

Marcus Strang (30:13.218)

Yeah, yeah, great. And that's just you that you were saying that's that was New South Wales. So the further north you get the worse that's going to get. Yeah. Yeah. Moisture is a big thing and mechanical ventilation is huge. And as we we build out like some of the CSR research that came out recently showed that conventional buildings are now hitting the low five air changes, which is still, you know, far away from Passive House, but it's still at the stage where

Jess Kismet (30:18.044)

Northern New South Wales, they're not even like up in the actual tropics, just, yeah.

Marcus Strang (30:41.518)

Pretty much all projects should be considering mechanical ventilation. And if there's no one home, then I guess that moisture is just going to be sitting in there. Yeah, it would be interesting to understand those kind of projects and understanding what are the risks there and how can we persuade them to, I guess that's a good persuasion. Anyway.

Jess Kismet (30:45.203)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (30:53.268)

sitting there. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (31:08.5)

Yeah, well, she said to me, she said to what do I do? And I was like, oh, well, I think the first thing you need to do is probably get some sort of ventilation system happening in there. So it's not stale and stagnant for five days out of seven. Which is difficult on an existing home, but I suggested some decentralized heat recovery ventilation and improving air tightness because I thought if it's just sitting there.

And if there's heat recovery, ventilation, mechanical ventilation in the home, improving the air tightness won't matter. It probably a good thing because this should be stopping all of that humid air coming in to the home while it's all closed up, like infiltrating through all the gaps and cracks that shouldn't be there.

Marcus Strang (31:56.813)

Yeah, it definitely just shows the power of constant mechanical ventilation, which is, I think that's, that's one of the big battles for building physics time, which is they're having pushing constant mechanical ventilation as opposed to intermittent, which if the build the owner isn't there for five days a week, then there's obviously going to be, we're not going to be achieving any sort of minimum air changes for good indoor air quality goods. Yeah. Keeping that.

Jess Kismet (32:06.963)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (32:22.356)

No, very unhealthy indoor environment. Yeah, yeah, not good. And it was, yeah, she rented it out. So now she's, you know, can't rent it out cause it's, it's not a healthy environment. yeah, it's just not, not like disastrous financially and you know, so humidity, humidity control is crucial, crucial up in, up in those climates. And I think that that just gets really dismissed and overlooked. Like it's not even a thing.

Marcus Strang (32:42.798)

Thank

Marcus Strang (32:52.782)

And this is where so many different kind of experts can come together because I know you've done something like building biologists. So yeah, yeah. So mean, that's where all these, you know, we can all converge for the essentially the same solution. So yeah.

Jess Kismet (32:53.416)

Hehehe

Jess Kismet (32:59.794)

I'm studying beauty biology at the moment, yeah.

Jess Kismet (33:09.906)

Yeah. Yep. So going through certification, as complex as it is, it is essentially a tick box exercise, just making sure everything is tick tick tick tick tick done so that you can relax and move on and build it as it's been designed. What do you think is the most underestimated detail that you've ever seen? Derail a certification?

Marcus Strang (33:36.591)

Yep. I would just slightly rephrase that potentially it's like, with, um, so we've got performance solutions and I guess like deemed to satisfy where that's might be more like a tick box, tick ticking exercise. So Passive House that is called a performance, um, standard. there's many, many different ways that we can achieve Passive House standard. really just comes down to creativity of the design team. And so, yeah, one mat one.

Jess Kismet (33:48.828)

huh.

Marcus Strang (34:05.518)

way may not work for another project and may require due to clients' preferences, they might be looking at a different approach. But yeah, so I definitely would agree that the Passive House Standard realistically considers how all parts of the building system interact together, where the PHPP, the central part of the Passive House Playing, serves to synthesize all those different aspects relevant to the energy balance together. Though the accuracy of the PHPP modeling does rely on reliable

Jess Kismet (34:22.238)

Mm-hmm.

Marcus Strang (34:34.85)

data sheets that pretty precisely resemble each part of the building component. So in some cases can be challenging to acquire those relevant data sheets or building products or systems. And this has definitely come a huge way in the past few years, but it can still create some significant project pickups. So would definitely encourage all design, house designers to understand what data sheets are needed for Passive House.

Jess Kismet (34:45.524)

Mm.

Marcus Strang (35:04.28)

certification so they can and they feel so they can and also do feel familiar and confident requesting those correct documents. And this is especially relevant for window frame data sheets, skylight data sheets, mechanical ventilation components if it's not PHI certified one. So yeah, just kind of understanding what it is and that it is really important for the integrity of the passive house standard.

Yeah, requesting that suppliers give over that data sheet so they understand what is needed and they can see that demand there.

Jess Kismet (35:46.11)

So you're saying that the thing you see trip people up most is not being able to prove what they've installed? Yeah.

Marcus Strang (35:51.757)

Yeah. And they might leave it really late. So they're like, you know, we're looking at ordering this tomorrow. it's like, well, I haven't actually seen any of those frame data sheets or skylight data sheets. It'd be great to see some of those and like, didn't realize. But yeah. So like really becoming.

Jess Kismet (36:00.787)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (36:05.98)

Yeah, so you could install like a heat pump without getting the right documentation to prove that it's going to perform in a certain way. And then that could derail your certification.

Marcus Strang (36:17.262)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, probably particularly like for window frames, I would say, like they're the they're probably the big ones where I mean, it's like most. No, there's a lot of a big list of window providers who can give us really high quality data now, compared to when I started where there was much more challenging designers had to model up all the frames themselves, which, you know, adds pretty considerable expense. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jess Kismet (36:21.48)

Windows.

Jess Kismet (36:32.563)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (36:42.088)

to get the U values and stuff. Yeah. Yeah, that's time consuming.

Marcus Strang (36:46.142)

But yeah, so that's probably just one. Absolutely. Yep. So I guess that's just one comment on just being able to show to the suppliers, this is the information I need on that really early stage. So that I guess, kind of, yeah, so the suppliers are aware of our clients asking for this kind of documentation. So let's actually invest in getting that model that we can provide.

Jess Kismet (37:01.896)

Mm-hmm.

Jess Kismet (37:10.11)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (37:15.988)

When I first started asking for documentation to prove like components that we were installing, I'd be like, I'm building a Passive House. Can you send me what I need? I didn't know how to ask for it. And then you would send me like, needs to be compliant with this standard and this standard. I was like, okay. I'll send them that. That might make more sense.

Marcus Strang (37:25.23)

Yeah, exactly.

Marcus Strang (37:33.706)

Yeah, yeah. And this is where like the Passive House that like the PHI have really good documentation out then as criteria is probably one of the key documents there, like just the Passive House criteria.

Jess Kismet (37:46.395)

Which one is sorry?

yeah, yes. That's a good document. I haven't read it in depth, but it is useful. Yeah. Not light reading. Yeah. I'll link it in the show notes for anyone who wants some bedtime reading. It goes into detail with, yeah, pass-by standard and what the criteria are. So yeah, that's interesting.

Marcus Strang (37:51.98)

Yeah, I mean, it's very, very long. Yeah, I would recommend it. It's probably just, yeah, exactly.

Jess Kismet (38:11.995)

Interesting. So this is another reason why it's really important to get that design assurance, design stage assurance letter to make sure that all of your documentation is, is correct. And you've got everything that you need before you start on site.

Marcus Strang (38:20.653)

Mm-hmm.

Marcus Strang (38:24.386)

Absolutely.

Jess Kismet (38:25.136)

Yep. All right. delete this bit. Do you notice any patterns between teams that sail through certification and teams that struggle?

Marcus Strang (38:40.802)

I think we kind of touched on that one bit earlier. So yeah, probably I would say just that, documentation, having that high level of documentation in, the drawing. So everything's really detailed out well. So we've got all our installation products specified. We've got our membranes ideally in color. So it's everyone can kind of really understands how that's going to be sequenced in. And just have that, have it all drawn in way before construction starts. So.

Jess Kismet (38:54.279)

Yeah.

Marcus Strang (39:10.958)

so they can kind of hit the ground running. That would be probably the main ones there. Nicely comprehensively.

Jess Kismet (39:12.988)

Okay. Yeah. And that just comes again, like you said before, just comes down to experience.

Marcus Strang (39:18.966)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And having everyone kind of involved early on so they can pick up any risks and provide their areas where they can put them.

Jess Kismet (39:32.316)

Yeah, sure. Okay. You have worked for Hippie Hype for a while now and Hippie Hype has quite a reputation for being progressive in design. So in your experience and from your wearing your certifiers hat, what tensions do you see between this kind of architectural ambition and the pragmatism of performance?

Marcus Strang (39:54.991)

That's a really good question. I would say I see both progressive design and performance ambition as working towards the same end goal, creating buildings that are comfortable and efficient and people want to live in them. So I don't, in my view, the tension often isn't the intent or in the intent, but in how these ambitions are translated into buildable, verifiable outcomes.

So architecturally complex stromatries or extensive glazing can challenge energy efficiency, airtightness and dome bridging. But it doesn't have to be this way. Just as a story back in 2023, Liam Wallace, the founder of Hippie Hype and myself, we toured a number of multi-story mass timber buildings in Norway, which is again, a really great opportunity to have. And it was really obvious.

from that tour that architecturally beautiful buildings can still be accessible to the mainstream and employ design decisions that lead to good energy efficiency and low cost by utilizing all those first principles of good massing, orientation, and focus on those high performance film envelope. So the tensions do exist, but they can, they're ultimately kind of going towards the same goal ideally. And we can make...

Jess Kismet (41:20.666)

Yeah. And that, yet again, comes down to early, early planning and early involvement in, you know, all of the people and teams that need to be involved, right? Yeah. You can have what you want. You just have to plan for it and get it, get it, get in early. Yep.

Marcus Strang (41:32.046)

Absolutely.

Marcus Strang (41:37.966)

Have that team that works together and is happy to pick up the phone and invest that time.

Jess Kismet (41:46.868)

Yeah, that collaboration piece keeps coming up again and again and again. I was actually listening to a podcast, the mindful builders podcast today. And they had Amelia Lee on it's excellent episode. And she was talking about the cultural differences between architects and builders and then the building owner or the homeowner, is commercial or residential project. And they're basically from three different planets. And somehow they're meant to

Marcus Strang (41:58.521)

Thank you.

Jess Kismet (42:16.382)

communicate effectively and understand each other, which can be very challenging. You've got architects who are trained to, I don't know, I'm not an architect, but they're trained to think about form and light and human scale and these sorts of how a room is going to impact a person psychologically perhaps. And builders who are trained to...

build stuff and they're often from a long line of builders in their family, whereas architects not necessarily as much ingrained in their identity. And then you've got homeowners who've got absolutely no idea what's going on in terms of like the professional side of building a home and they have to somehow communicate and getting those parties and then you add in all the different consultants that have to come on as well for a certified Passive House project, getting everyone to actually align and communicate is no small feat. It's no small feat.

Marcus Strang (43:11.52)

I agree. And I think that's where it comes down to that shared narrative and that shared out casting that goal and everyone really getting behind that and also wanting that. Yes, I think it does come down to a bit of a narrative. Yeah, that's I guess that's where that hip v hype, that's where it's like, okay, I get why it's called hip v hype now.

Having the story that we can agree with, not believe the hype, but yeah, I guess have that joint venture together that we're all moving towards in the same direction. I don't know if that makes sense.

Jess Kismet (43:49.074)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (43:53.372)

Yeah, right. I actually have wondered what the hip V-hype actually means. Yeah. Just aligning everybody and making sure everyone's bought in, getting the buy-in from everyone at an early stage. I think we must've said that a few times now in this conversation. It's clearly an important theme. So I think if you're going to take one thing away from this episode.

Marcus Strang (43:57.455)

So have I.

Marcus Strang (44:16.076)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (44:22.676)

Dear listener, it would be that collaboration is extremely important in every construction project, but specifically Passive House projects. Beyond certification, is there anything that excites you about where building science is headed in Australia right now, Marcus?

Marcus Strang (44:42.592)

Absolutely. think the thing that really excites me most in the high performance building space is just the really strong demand for clients that are looking towards deep energy retrofits. So specifically targeting the EnerPHit building standard where clients and designers appear to be increasingly value adaptive reuse of existing materials and celebrating the history of what's already there.

Jess Kismet (44:55.7)

Yeah.

Marcus Strang (45:10.734)

Another area that's exciting me is projects that are incorporating bio-based building materials, for example, hemp, straw, rammed earth, salvaged building timber products, where in partnership with the Pass of the House Standard, I really think there's a beautiful opportunity there to dramatically reduce not only the operational energy, but the embodied energy of our new and existing building stock.

Jess Kismet (45:37.972)

Yeah, I'm really excited about EnerPHit as well. I have to I was a little bit scared of it. But I have a client who is looking into doing EnerPHit for her new house that she's just bought. And I'm super excited because I think that this house is going to be a perfect case study or a perfect building for the EnerPHit standard. And seeing it turn from the incredibly leaky, uncomfortable home that it is now into a certified Passive House is so possible. And I think that

It's yeah, it's just a total game changer for health and comfort and acoustics and, you know, just livability. So I, I.

Marcus Strang (46:14.668)

Yeah, and we have some.

We have some really beautiful case studies now in Australia that do speak to that benefit of moving through that. yeah, I don't think it's an easy challenge, but I think it's a very worthwhile one. There are all these added constraints, which really just promote creativity and promote innovation. yeah, I would love to see more and more of those.

Jess Kismet (46:33.342)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (46:44.372)

Yeah, now that I've had a few, you know, brand new projects go through, I'm more comfortable with the PHPP. I'm much more comfortable taking on a challenge like a retrofit and a fit project. So yeah, if you're listening, Amanda, I hope that you can go ahead with your end of it project. Okay, this, this, this to me, this, this, I'm really interested in your answer to this question, this next question. What do you think that

Marcus Strang (46:59.157)

you

Jess Kismet (47:11.164)

In your opinion or experience, what does the Passive House Framework not check or quantify that you think it should or could?

Marcus Strang (47:17.688)

So for me, it kind of leans on from that last question. So in a way that I Passive House has a really strong focus on energy efficiency, thermal comfort, and well-being, investment. And I think it is good that the Passive House standard rigidly focuses on those areas because it does that really, really well. But as the operational energy shrinks, that embodied energy becomes larger.

So the PHPP software doesn't natively quantify this embodied energy, but PHI have released what they call the manufacturing energy evaluation tool called Meet. So it's a tool that I've started using on all our in-house Passive House designer projects. And I would highly recommend it to all Passive House designers as an value add-on for clients to quantify and guide the specification of materials to minimize embodied energy of our Passive House projects.

I think in the end we all want the same thing and tools like PHPP and this Meet tool really help guide us and quantify it. So I think that's a really nice tool that I would recommend people check out and start incorporating when they see fit.

Jess Kismet (48:30.58)

So what's it stand for? Meet.

Marcus Strang (48:33.804)

Yeah, it stands for manufacturing energy evaluation tool. it's looks, it's looking at the energy. Exactly. Yeah. So there's some limitations there because it's, it's not so broad as like transportation and things like that. So it's, it makes it much easier to just plug into the PHPP and quite easily pull out some quantifiable information, whereas like a full LCA study would take.

Jess Kismet (48:38.932)

Okay.

Jess Kismet (48:42.325)

Is it kind like a life cycle analysis type thing? Yeah, okay.

Jess Kismet (48:52.68)

Marcus Strang (49:03.294)

significantly longer period of time. But this is quite useful for kind of comparing different materials within an assembly. So it can be like, what would happen if I have maybe seven different assembly types and what does that look like for the operational and embodied energy comparison over a 30 year period? So it kind of allows you to compare these different things. Yeah, same like, and that's always what the PHPP is very useful for sensitivity studies because it's a

Jess Kismet (49:24.884)

Brilliant.

Marcus Strang (49:32.175)

Excel file, can change something, it'll instantaneously updates in the same way. This file is very useful for that. you can kind of, if anyone's used to the variance tab in the PHPP, it's similar to that and allowing you to compare multiple different materiality and selecting over the lifetime, which one's actually going to be the most effective for the total operational and energy output. So, yeah, great little tool there.

Jess Kismet (50:01.182)

That's really interesting. And how do you get that? Is that downloadable from the PHI website? Yeah.

Marcus Strang (50:04.152)

Yep. Yep. Yeah, just I think it's might be on pacipedia even. But yeah, if you just Google that manufacturing get meat manufacturing energy evaluation tool to pop up.

Jess Kismet (50:16.988)

Awesome, I will do that because it was actually something we were discussing at work about carbon emissions and those sorts of things for materials, know, steel versus timber, for example. So if that's a plug into the PHPP that it would be extremely useful and really interesting. So I'll definitely look at that. Cool. What about moisture content of timber?

Marcus Strang (50:36.686)

Please do.

Marcus Strang (50:41.372)

All right, that's a good question, but what's the question?

Jess Kismet (50:45.568)

It really bugs me. I mean, the thermal bridging calculations, the air tightness, the surface temperature can't be below 12.6 degrees. No surface can be below 12.6 degrees. It's all to avoid a dew point. It's all to avoid condensation and mold, but there's nothing in a PHPP or in the pacifast standard that says you have to moisture test your timber before you put your insulation in to make sure it's under 15 % that it's not going to go moldy inside the walls.

Marcus Strang (51:14.68)

So there is a little clause in the passive powers criteria that states like if moisture safety is doubtful, then that's kind of, I guess, reason enough for the certifier to challenge essentially certification if there's like issues, yeah, or to request something like a film perform, like hygrothermal report or something like that.

Jess Kismet (51:32.008)

Really?

Jess Kismet (51:42.642)

Okay.

Marcus Strang (51:43.599)

So in the cases where like if it is, you know, if it's CLT and it's been saturated because the windows haven't been put in and it's been raining for days, if there's like issues around the structure, then a certifier cannot issue certification if it's, you know, if there's risk. Yeah, yeah. And that might include certain building assemblies where the certifier might think that there's risk.

Jess Kismet (52:02.964)

for doubtful.

Marcus Strang (52:12.142)

for interstitial condensation. So then they would, they might request the WUFI report to check over the longterm if there is in fact moisture going to be accumulating within that wall assembly. So yeah, so it's not quantifiable within the PHPP because it's an Excel file, but this is where those kind of these expert evaluations become useful as well. So the client isn't.

Jess Kismet (52:39.22)

It would be pretty easy to just get a pin meter, a moisture meter and, you know, ask for say, I don't know, 10 % of frames or, you know, 20 studs to be tested and then photographed, you know, on the day the insulation goes in. Or, you know, you have to prove that a certain stud has now dried to a certain point. That would, if I could change the PHPP.

If I could change the Passive House standard, would probably be, once again, I would change because so many frames get left out in the rain all the time. And obviously the membrane goes on as quickly as possible. It's not always quick enough. Timber packs arrive wet or they arrive already moldy. And this to me goes against everything that Passive House is trying to achieve in terms of being a healthy building standard. So yeah, if I could change one thing, that's definitely what I would ask for.

Marcus Strang (53:30.53)

Yeah, so I think this is where if you have projects where you think it might be, might have been like rains and you've gone into check it and like, there's actually water pooling. Then definitely let's, let's talk and like figure out some strategies to dry the building out. Does that mean having a dehumidifier? Does that mean getting a broom and just physically moving the water out? Check my thesis. It has many strategies in there around moisture safety.

Jess Kismet (53:46.409)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (53:56.532)

I will actually. Yeah.

Marcus Strang (53:59.663)

Yeah, yeah. So happy to talk on moisture safety anytime. I think there is some, know, the PHPP can't and the passive arts criteria can't consider everything. And but yeah, absolutely right. We don't want more, like a key part of that is a building that's not going to equate to mold growth in the long term. And we definitely don't want that in that building. yeah, we want to work together to figure out strategies if

Jess Kismet (54:03.379)

Yeah.

Marcus Strang (54:29.454)

If rain has been occurring and that also is the builder, the builders probably, you know, they're responsible if it's been, if it's been raining on sites and they're now sealing the building up. Um, that that's probably their liability. it's, if everything's saturated. Um, so it's yeah, we're thinking about maybe putting a dehumidifier in or figuring out some strategies to get it below 18 % moisture content or whatever, like whatever we might deem as.

safe for it to still continue to dry out once the air tightness or weather resistant membrane is all sealed up. It will restrict some drying, but it still does allow dry out even once it's all sealed up because we have our vapor permeable weather resistant membrane. Once the building is occupied, it should be a bit warmer and it should be drying out naturally. there is definitely some tolerance there, but if

Jess Kismet (55:23.57)

Yeah.

Marcus Strang (55:27.426)

Yeah, especially where there's novel wall types and things like that. Has that been checked to still have a dry out capacity? I think it's important. Yeah, now you raise a really good point there. yeah, happy to discuss any of that.

Jess Kismet (55:46.448)

Alright, I'm going to go through and read your moisture mitigation strategies in your PhD and come back to you. I'm actually also going to link a cheap moisture meter, a pin meter in the show notes. If you're a builder who wants to check the moisture content of your frames before you insulate and clad to make sure that you're reducing your mold risk inside your walls, please go and have a look at the resources I put in the show notes because...

Marcus Strang (55:50.316)

Yep, Excellent.

Jess Kismet (56:11.828)

It's something that is so easily overlooked and could impact health quite severely. There's a project here in Adelaide I've posted on my Instagram about, and the frames are just black. It was a job where the builder went bust. And this is not a fast project, but the builder went bust. It was out in the rain for, I don't know, one, two, three winters, maybe more. And I drove past one day and I was just flabbergasted. So I stopped, pulled over, had a look, took some photos and videos of it.

Marcus Strang (56:20.193)

Thank

Jess Kismet (56:41.308)

And long behold, you know, a year later, it's nearly finished and people are about to move in and the frames are black. so.

Marcus Strang (56:46.978)

This is where sequencing is so critical. Sequencing is anyway a big part of Passive House standard, but sequencing in regards to avoiding moisture risk, to getting that weather resistant membrane on. Not just opening up the windows before the rough openings, like cutting open the weather resistant membranes before the windows have arrived. We want to keep that sealed so rain just can't dump in until...

Jess Kismet (56:49.777)

Ugh.

Jess Kismet (56:57.737)

Yeah.

Jess Kismet (57:05.694)

Yep.

Jess Kismet (57:13.364)

100%. And this, the reason I actually noticed this project was because it had like, I don't know, tarps or something and they were just shredded, shredded hanging off the frame. And so I sort of, that's what caught my attention. And it wasn't until I got close that I realized how black the frames were. And of course they weren't protected from the weather. And this project, as soon as the builder went bust, I don't know, they didn't understand how to mitigate the risk there. But if they had got membranes on that project, you could have sat out in the rain for two winters and without a problem.

Marcus Strang (57:18.808)

Mm-hmm.

Marcus Strang (57:27.521)

Yeah, well.

Jess Kismet (57:42.542)

so yeah, but you're a hundred percent right sequencing, getting that membrane on your timber frames, ASAP is so crucial. And then testing the moisture before you insulate to make sure that the packs you've got are actually dry. so easy.

Marcus Strang (57:56.812)

Yeah, that's scary thought to me that people are living in insulation packages out in the rain open. That's a pretty scary.

Jess Kismet (58:06.012)

Yep. Yep. There was another project on the Esplanade here where they had the roof blanket rolled out on the roof and all the sheets were on. So the bulk insulation on the roof blanket was just getting saturated by the rain. And then someone was coming along and put a roof sheet over the top of it. And how's that going to dry?

Marcus Strang (58:20.95)

No, but I like these kind of projects. Like at some point that someone's going to realize that, I mean, these aren't past projects, but that's like, then someone's going to be liable. It's going to, it's going to be a big old thing. But, yeah, it's an interesting topic. yeah, it really comes down to, to, mean, if you have projects like that and you, you know, they're, excellent case studies, I guess these are things like the things that people.

Jess Kismet (58:29.523)

No.

Jess Kismet (58:38.612)

Mm.

Jess Kismet (58:48.222)

Mmm.

Marcus Strang (58:50.626)

do wrong and you don't need to, know, they're as helpful as the ones that we do right. Because they really do avoid issues on a wider scale of like, hey, we really need to avoid this, let's not do this and teach those as much as we teach the things we should be doing right as well.

Jess Kismet (59:09.936)

Yep. are you there? You chopped out.

Jess Kismet (59:16.401)

my internet connection, can you still hear me? I do. I'm nearly finished. Come on internet.

Marcus Strang (59:19.982)

Sorry Jess, I think I've actually lost you there.

Marcus Strang (59:29.326)

Well, still, I'm gonna call you very quickly.

Jess Kismet (59:34.676)

Sorry Marcus, if you can hear me, we'll come back in a second.

having a little connection.

Jess Kismet (59:53.556)

Mmm.

Jess Kismet (01:05:35.288)

Are you there Marcus?

Jess Kismet (01:05:41.069)

Okay, stirring.

Jess Kismet (01:05:46.256)

there you are. Can you hear me? I don't know what happened then.

Marcus Strang (01:05:55.546)

Good. Yeah, your internet. Yeah.

Jess Kismet (01:05:56.216)

You're good? That was my stupid internet's fault. I had enough for the day. It's packed up. No. Have you got a few more minutes? I've just got two more questions. Do you have to be anywhere?

Marcus Strang (01:06:02.862)

I was thinking, we finished here, I guess I'll pack up.

Marcus Strang (01:06:10.818)

sure. no, it's okay.

Jess Kismet (01:06:16.602)

Are you sure? Because I can make it one question.

Marcus Strang (01:06:20.482)

yeah, nah, that's all good.

Jess Kismet (01:06:24.986)

All right, are we recording? Okay, we are recording. All right, so I have two more questions for you, Marcus. The first one is, from your experience, what practical steps can builders and designers take if they're new to Passive House but want to start moving in that direction in terms of educating themselves and their potential clients? We talked earlier in the session about how this is kind of scary and more difficult when you start out. So what's the best way for people to start out?

Marcus Strang (01:06:52.048)

So I would say for...

Builders and designers who are new to Passive House and are wanting to start moving in that Passive House direction. It's very fortunate that we have a lot of great resources out there. And as a start, I would recommend the Australian Passive House Association's Passive House Designer Course for designers and the Tradesperson Course for builders. And that really will give a really tight network to help support one another and a lot of resources to get you started.

in this world. So probably that would be the first port of call if they haven't already gone down the road.

Jess Kismet (01:07:40.538)

Is there anything to add to that? is that?

Marcus Strang (01:07:43.542)

That's probably the main one I would say. As a designer, I guess yourself, there things that you feel that you would add to that if they were going to educate themselves and your clients?

Jess Kismet (01:07:46.232)

Yep. Okay, cool.

Jess Kismet (01:08:01.425)

Um, well, when I went through the course, was nearly four years ago now. Um, so I think it's changed since then and I didn't go through APA. I went through, um, uh, uh, Daniel Cress, um, and Julia, um, through their, their program. Um, I think, I think,

From what I've heard, the course has changed now to have more information about the actual PHPP. So we were taught a lot about all of the Passive House principles, calculation, not principles, all of the Passive House, like the calculations and all the science and maths behind it. But as far as actually using the PHPP, I never opened a PHPP when I'd finished the course. And I'd also never modeled a house in design PH in order to import it into PHPP. So that for me was a big missing piece.

and I did your design pH, your design pH course. And I also did one for the Elsie Wang did. cause I just, I felt like I really needed a lot more help to get those, to get that knowledge and experience. and the thermal bridging, if I didn't have in-house training on thermal bridging, and I also reached out to Elsie for that and got in-house training, I, I'd be.

I don't know how I would have learned how to use Flixo and do a thermal bridging calculation. So the Flixo videos are kind of useful. I found them hard to follow. There's no audio. It's just literally showing you what to do on a screen. I found them quite slow and frustrating. So I think...

I think just the actual practical training on how to use the PHPP, how to model and design pH and then how to do a Flixo, the bridging calculation or a CERM calculation or whatever you want to do is pretty important and I was lucky enough to have people around me to help me.

Marcus Strang (01:09:52.05)

yeah, I-

I definitely agree that the Passed House course is just the first step into this world and there's definitely a lot of education that comes in after that, such as those workshops. And we have been trying to, like you were saying, we've been trying to migrate a lot more of that PHPP, work into the designer course and more kind of some of the hands-on calculations, trying to like front end that I guess. But yeah, lot of those design PHPP workshops and bridging workshops, or just having that network

Jess Kismet (01:09:57.583)

Yeah.

Marcus Strang (01:10:22.657)

can speak to and learn from. think it's pretty critical and it all comes down to who you know and being able to get support from that wider community is really important. And as you know everyone's very friendly and everyone wants to help and I've always been astounded by our fellow Passive House designers and everyone involved in that world. It's very generous.

Jess Kismet (01:10:30.062)

Yeah, yeah.

Jess Kismet (01:10:47.48)

Yeah. Yeah, I never sort of never fails to amaze me how, you know, yourself, people like Elsie and everyone in this community willingly put aside time at short notice to help and answer questions. It makes a big difference. So thank you.

Okay, final question and I ask this of everyone who comes on the podcast. Out of everything that you've learned in your career, what would be one takeaway that you want the listener to know?

Marcus Strang (01:11:19.424)

I would say just start the journey. If you're thinking about it, just get into it. And I think a really good way to start it is by experiencing it. And so Passive House Association have an open day coming up. I think seeing and feeling that difference is critical to be able to explain that to clients or for your client being able to feel that difference yourself and really understand how Passive House translates into reality.

So seeing is believing, that's probably what I would say that would be the main takeaway. And once you've, you you understand it and it's really hard to consider anything else really, what we want to live in.

Jess Kismet (01:12:02.282)

Yeah, yeah, you're right. Seeing is believing and feeling is believing because the Passive House feels different. It doesn't just look different. They don't actually look all that different unless you can get x-ray vision and see inside the walls. Yeah, yeah, cool. All right, Marcus, that's it for today. I'll let you get on with your evening. Thank you so much for your time.

Marcus Strang (01:12:11.952)

Well said, well said. Feeling, absolutely.

Marcus Strang (01:12:24.698)

Thanks, Jessica. See ya.

Jess Kismet (01:12:25.698)

Alright, see ya.