#24 - Is This Australia’s Leaky Building Crisis? What Victoria’s Failures Reveal with Chris Crewther MP and Kerry Ould

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Hello, it's just kismet here.
It's great to have you back.

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By way of introduction to this
episode, I wanted to read you an

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article.
This article was published on

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news.com AU on the 11th of April
2024.

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So it's a year and a half old or
so, and it gives a really solid

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foundation for the discussion
that you're about to listen to.

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The title of the article is
Horror $9 million early

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Christmas present for 33
apartment owners.

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I shall begin.
Just 13 days before Christmas,

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33 Melbourne apartment owners
had their world turned upside

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down from a single e-mail their
local council, Frankston City

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Council, issued them with an
emergency works order as their

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homes posed a danger to life
arising out of condition of

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building.
I quote.

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Combustible cladding had been
installed, the residents learnt,

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leaving them at risk of a deadly
inferno if so much as the

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lighting of a cigarette or a BBQ
went wrong.

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But that wasn't all in
parliamentary minutes.

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Local politician Chris Cruther
has since detailed that there

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were many defects at the
Frankston South side, including,

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I quote, multiple balcony
collapses, significant cracking,

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water leaks that had rotted out,
carpets and wall linings to the

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extent that mushrooms and black
mold began to grow at an

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alarming rate, a collapsing
underground car park, and more.

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An independent building report
obtained by News.com.au

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estimated that it would cost in
the vicinity of $9,000,000 to

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fix all of this, including 7.2
million on the cladding alone.

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Much of that has come out of the
owner's own pockets, leaving

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some of them financially ruined.
This is not a case simply about

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combustible cladding and
building defects, Kerry Auld,

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58, who resides at The Block,
told News.com.au.

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This is a case of hardworking
Victorians not getting what they

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paid for and now having to live
in unsafe homes.

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The interview that you are about
to listen to is with Chris

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Kruther MP and Kerry Old, both
of whom have been mentioned in

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this article.
Kerry is one of the residents

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from the Frankston South
apartment block and Chris

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Kruther has been her advocate in
Parliament for the last few

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years.
The Victorian Building Authority

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was dismantled earlier this year
and the Building and Plumbing

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Commission was put in place
instead, and this was to address

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some of the very serious defect
issues that were occurring in

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Vic.
I really hope you enjoyed this

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episode.
It's a really important

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conversation because what we're
seeing is the beginning of

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Australia's own leaky building
crisis.

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If you don't know what the leaky
building crisis is, please go to

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the show notes.
There will be a link to some

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more information about that and
also a book that you can read.

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There's also a ton of articles
there about Kerry's experience

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and many others in Vic.
So now that I've given you a

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little bit of background
information and context, I hope

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you enjoy the show and don't
forget to press follow on your

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favorite podcast app and leave a
five star review.

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Cheers, bye.
Hello and welcome to the

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Building Psychology Body where
we talk about better buildings

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to live and breathe in.
My name is Jess Kismet and have

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I got a good episode for you
today?

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If you are a builder in
Victoria, chances are that you

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have had an interaction with the
VBA or you know somebody who

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has.
Last year it became apparent

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that what was meant to be a
regulatory body that supported

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builders and homeowners was
actually something quite

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different.
And what unfolded had many in

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the industry asking who is
really being held accountable.

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Here today I am joined by Carrie
Old.

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She is one of the few people who
has been brave enough to speak

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publicly about what has gone
wrong.

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I'm also joined by Chris Cruther
MP who's been making noise in

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Parliament calling for urgent
reform and a shift in how we

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regulate how we regulate
builders in Victoria.

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Welcome, Chris and Carrie.
Thank you so much for joining

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me.
Thank you, Jess.

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Thanks, Jess.
I.

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Really appreciate your time.
No worries So.

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I'll first ask you to introduce
yourselves.

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Tell us a little bit about your
history with with the VBA and

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what brought you here today.
So Kerry, if we can start with

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you.
Yeah, Jess, probably 2018.

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Christmas 2018 the VBA came
knocking and we had combustible

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cladding.
Mm hmm.

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Yeah, so that was the main issue
with your project.

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Your your your apartment
building was completely covered

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in combustible garden.
Yes, yes, it was.

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Yeah.
One of many issues.

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We had, sorry.
Amongst others.

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Yeah, amongst other issues as we
were getting the cladding fixed.

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Damn, and you only just bought
this place?

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How long have you been?
How long had you been in there?

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I'd only been there a year.
Yeah.

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And this is your retirement
plan, right?

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Sorry.
Is this your retirement plan or

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your?
Well, it was going to be our.

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Retirement plan, well, it's
going to be yeah, damn.

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And Chris, a little bit of a
background on you if we can,

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please.
Yeah, so my name's Chris Cruther

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and I'm the member of the
Victorian Parliament for

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Mornington, are part of the
state opposition and I'm the

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shadow assistant Minister for
Health in as well as rental

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affordability.
I originally actually got

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involved in this issue actually
when I was a federal member of

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Parliament in late 2018 when I
came across the issue with

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Kerry, who's obviously here
today, and others.

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In Coal Carn in Frankston South,
many apartment owners have been

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affected not just by compatible
combustible cladding, but

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enormous building issues ranging
from flooding and water ingress

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into properties, mold, mushrooms
growing, balconies collapsing or

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on the verge of collapse.
A car park which at the time

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which was on the verge of
collapse.

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So they had to park outside the
property.

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And then they were getting fines
from local council.

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And there were so many issues
and a number of people have had

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to move out of the property.
Yeah, it's, it's been enormous.

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So that's, that's when I first
got involved.

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And unfortunately the fight for
Kerry and other owners there is

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still ongoing, despite the fact
that we've brought it to media

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and others attention and the
state Labour government of the

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main ones who are responsible as
the authority from 2014 onwards,

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so back in 2018 to this day.
But there seem to be little

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interest in helping people like
Kerry.

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Still none, not not too much at
all.

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There's been some assistance
with combustible cladding but

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there doesn't seem to be much
remedy in their situation from a

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situation where it was a dodgy
builder and developer and and

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surveyor as well.
Sorry, Chair.

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Yeah, no one's sort of get, it's
no one's sort of getting held

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accountable.
Jess, our builder did get his

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license and the surveyor did get
their license cancelled, OK, and

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a $42,000 fine.
But, you know, they've left us

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with a three-point, $3.4 million
loan between 33 of us.

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And there's people that have
gone bankrupt.

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Yeah.
And the bank's taken over a

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couple.
We've got a pensioner.

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He's living in his car because
he's had to rent out his unit to

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make the extra levies.
To this day, he's living in his

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car.
Sorry, today he's living in his

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car.
Yeah, Oh my.

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God, yeah, it's a guy, he's
living in his van, so I'm in

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regular contact with him because
he can't live in, in, in the

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property.
So, and it's totally devalued.

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They can't sell the properties,
they can't get people living in

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them.
So it's, it's put them in a

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really awkward situation.
And, and this is not to say the

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majority of builders, good
people trying to do the right

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thing, but this is a minority of
dodgy builders who are doing the

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wrong thing, who are just not
being held accountable, who are

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screwing over consumers.
But they're also making it

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harder for other builders to
compete.

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Are the good builders to
compete, say on price, where

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those who are doing the wrong
thing are out competing on price

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when it comes to construction
projects?

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I mean, The thing is
construction costs, what

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construction costs?
So if you've got someone who is

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undercutting someone else, if
you've got it at a cheaper price

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for the same project, you've got
to wonder why.

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Why is it cheaper?
You know, because what is that?

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A concrete slab cost the same
for one builder more or less

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than it cost for another
builder.

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So not.
I just see it's the quality,

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Jess.
Yeah, it's not that.

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It's not.
It's the quality of what you're

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getting.
Absolutely.

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Yeah.
I mean, there's, there's people

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that know how to pull slabs and
there's people that don't know

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how to pull slabs.
Yeah, yeah.

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There's people that there's
people know how to do roofs and

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there's a lot that don't.
A builder is not the same as the

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next builder, same as an
architect.

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No, definitely not.
There's a huge range of skill

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and integrity and willingness to
learn in our industry and I find

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that very hard to to comprehend.
Sometimes I find it really hard

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to understand why, why there
isn't the willingness to learn.

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I, I started from very humble
building design beginnings and

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I, I, my career development has
been purely based on my own need

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to know more and need to
understand how buildings work.

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And I understand that we all
have got different career

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aspirations and different
focuses.

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But when when something is your
specialty, The pocket of the

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industry that I work in is is
builders and architects and

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designers and consultants who
who deliberately go out of

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their.
Way and spend extra time and

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money to.
Learn better ways to do things

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rather than cut corners and
undercut and and the cheapest

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price possible.
It's it's about about quality

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and integrity.
The bit that I work in, not

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about cheapest price.
So for the in field of defense,

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though, that's something I have
always also struggled with in

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the building industry is that
there isn't enough communication

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and education for builders.
I get their ticket, they get

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their their trade at 20,
sometimes younger, around about

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that age.
Most of them, you know, they've

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left school before the end of
year 12.

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They get their ticket because
they're good with their hands.

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And from then on, there's no
requirement in most states in

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Australia to do any further
training or upskilling.

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The building code changes every
three years.

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There's not enough effective
communication to let builders

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know what the changes are and
there's no impetus, there's no

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incentive for them to actually
go out and, and, and learn

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better ways to do things.
So that that's one of my biggest

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frustrations.
What do, what do you guys think

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about that?
I mean, we've already said that

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this is some dodgy builders or
unscrupulous builders giving the

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rest of the industry a bad name.
What what do you guys think

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about that?
I think it needs to be harder to

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get your license, to be quite
honest.

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I said, you know, some of these
builders that are, I mean, I

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could speak about the wrong
ones, the ones that are doing

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the wrong things.
I mean, where are they getting

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their licensing licenses from
out of a weedy's packet?

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Yeah, this is a an issue that's
coming up too with with the the

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struggles we've had in the
industry with labour shortages.

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I've heard along the along the
line somewhere that there's

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actually shortening, that the
length of apprenticeships is

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being shortened in order to get
trades qualified and add into

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the industry.
That's that.

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That appears to me to be a good
short term solution, but

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creating all sorts of long term
problems.

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Yeah, and I don't think it's.
I also.

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You got first carry.
No, you go.

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I was.
Going to say it's, it's not just

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about licensing, it's about
accountability and consequences

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for those doing the wrong thing.
The the builder in Kerry's case

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has done multiple different
projects across Victoria where

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each of those projects, or
nearly all of them, have had

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major issues.
They're all stuff.

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Since the 1990s they've been
they've been operating on and

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off.
Then when they were banned

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00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,880
themselves, they've then gone
through basically a Phoenix

230
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,760
tender gone through a relation.
In Kerry's case, she had a

231
00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,560
situation where the builder, the
developer and the surveyor were

232
00:11:37,560 --> 00:11:40,640
all related.
And so they all, it was a bit of

233
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,640
homogeneous going on there.
And so it seems that the the

234
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,640
regulatory framework was not
working properly.

235
00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:48,720
There wasn't consequences.
It's the same as crime.

236
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:53,160
If, if, if, if a young person or
anyone commits a crime again and

237
00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,720
again and again, they keep on
breaking their bail and getting

238
00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,200
away with it, then they're going
to keep on doing it if there's

239
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,440
no consequence, yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

240
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,760
As was, as was all our builder
and developer was all related

241
00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,200
and the surveyor, we think that
was the cousin.

242
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:12,080
They've all, well they've been
cancelled.

243
00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,920
But like they've had, they've
had eight, there's eight other

244
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:20,400
bills that have gone through or
are going through what we're

245
00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,400
going through.
So that that cladding that was

246
00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:26,520
on your place, Carrie, I
actually, you sent me about 15

247
00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:30,840
different media articles and
videos and YouTube, YouTube

248
00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:32,880
clips and all sorts of all sorts
of media.

249
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:38,200
There was a real media storm in
sort of early to mid to late, I

250
00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,440
guess all, all 2019.
There was a lot of media

251
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,080
coverage on this around that
time.

252
00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,480
And some of the videos that you
sent me showed the cladding and

253
00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:50,840
they showed it crumbling and
they showed it was actually from

254
00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,040
a distance.
It looks like brick.

255
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,760
It does.
They put a, they put a passion

256
00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:57,600
over there.
It's fruit box.

257
00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,920
It's fruit box stuff.
I was like, what?

258
00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,400
That's yeah, we're covered in
fruit boxes.

259
00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,640
Done here and even it's gone on,
it's gone in and out of the

260
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,880
media over time.
So yes, in late in early 2019.

261
00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,880
So I, I first and got involved
with Kerry and then I got the, I

262
00:13:13,880 --> 00:13:18,560
got the then shadow minister
involved and came down the new

263
00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:22,160
shadow minister last year also
came down James Newberry, who

264
00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:23,360
was the shadow minister last
year.

265
00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,480
And we went through Con's
probably Con is the one who's

266
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,200
now living in his van there.
The whole place is basically

267
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,080
being ripped out.
You can, you can smell the mould

268
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:33,920
in the air.
The balcony is just being held

269
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:37,800
up by, well-being barely held up
as it is.

270
00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:41,280
So it's, it's not a place that's
really livable and it's it's.

271
00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,800
It is it is fixed now and and
Connor has moved it.

272
00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:50,240
It is fixed now, but Conn moved
out because he can't afford the

273
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:53,160
levees.
Chris, he's gone through his

274
00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,240
super and he's broke so that's
why he's moved out.

275
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,840
He's had to rent it to move into
the car well, and to move into

276
00:14:01,840 --> 00:14:05,880
the this little van I.
Think it just comes down to

277
00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:09,520
injustice and that's why I got
involved originally and I stayed

278
00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,040
involved even when I wasn't a
member of Parliament from 2019

279
00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:15,600
to 2022.
We still stand in touch during

280
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,040
that time.
It's there's a wrong thing that

281
00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,720
should happen and anyone with in
the right mind should be I guess

282
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,440
trying to fix the issue.
And yeah, there's no one being

283
00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,080
held accountable and no one who
you.

284
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:33,160
Know that's what actually gets
me that no one is is really held

285
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,880
accountable.
I mean, no, our builder did get

286
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,360
a $40,000 fine, but I just, you
know what?

287
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:44,320
I just can't cop that that he
got that and lives in a pretty

288
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,560
nice house down in the best St.
in Brighton and we're all

289
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,840
struggling and got a pensioner
living in his car.

290
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,560
You know, I just don't get that.
I can't believe that we are

291
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,360
still here 5-6 years after all
of this happened or more and

292
00:14:59,360 --> 00:15:01,960
nothings changed.
Well, they are bringing in some

293
00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:04,920
different legislation.
Yeah, okay, so let's talk about

294
00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:06,680
that.
So that's probably incorrect.

295
00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:09,000
So nothings changed because
there has been a fairly major

296
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,480
shift.
So I mean nothing's.

297
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,720
Changed in your perspective for
people like Kerry and that in

298
00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:14,960
the hoop, but this?
Is all.

299
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:16,920
Yeah.
No, it's not going to help me

300
00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:17,880
SO.
Nothing has changed in your

301
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,040
particular situation.
Poor Con is in his van.

302
00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,080
You know, lives have been
devastated, properties have been

303
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,320
destroyed and there's nothing
that can currently change that.

304
00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:31,080
Looking forward, the VBA has
been dismantled or will be

305
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,400
dismantled.
I believe as of the 1st of July,

306
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:36,000
which is next week, there will
be a new body in charge, which

307
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:37,320
is the Building and Plumbing
Commission.

308
00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,640
Can you guys, Chris, would you
like to speak to that?

309
00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:45,200
Yeah, what that.
So obviously I'm I'm in

310
00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,240
opposition.
So we did debate this issue in

311
00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,960
parliament.
There were some elements of the

312
00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,800
bill that were supported and
some less supported.

313
00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,520
But that's the same with any
bill that's debated and you get

314
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,160
to more of a a compromise on
different elements of the bill

315
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,000
in the end.
But that there does need to be

316
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,720
changed because you look at
Kerry's situation and many other

317
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,840
people as well, Tamara, who I
got to know through Kerry, who's

318
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,040
in another builder, from another
builder altogether.

319
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,000
And I'm not, I'm not naming the
builders here because I'm not in

320
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,240
Parliament, but I did, I did
name these builders in

321
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:20,400
Parliament in the past under
parliamentary privilege.

322
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,680
But yeah, the situation needs to
change to keep people

323
00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:25,440
accountable.
And also we need to go down the

324
00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,920
path of finding ways where
people like Kerry and others can

325
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,520
be compensated so that they're
not having to fork into their

326
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,440
pockets, which often are empty.
And some of them are being

327
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,800
forced to sell.
And in some situations, some

328
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,880
people have even suicided over
these situations.

329
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,680
So it's it's really not not
good.

330
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,000
There has been a suicide chest.
And to live in these property

331
00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,320
when they're forced to live in
these properties with major mold

332
00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,280
and things like that as well,
it's not good for your health.

333
00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,480
I've just moved out.
I'm literally just moved out of

334
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,360
a property today because of
major mould and storm damage.

335
00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,040
So I know what it's like waking
up in the middle of the in the

336
00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,400
morning, just all clogged.
So it's not good for me.

337
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:00,520
It's not good for my kids.
So yeah, it's not good for

338
00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:01,960
people who live in cold car or
elsewhere.

339
00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,599
No, absolutely not.
And you know, there's a whole,

340
00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:08,079
it's a whole inflammatory
illness around mild exposure,

341
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:09,640
chronic inflammatory response
syndrome.

342
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,359
So if if anyone who buys one of
these properties, not only

343
00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:16,079
they're financially devastated,
has bought, will bought.

344
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,440
You're broken.
I'm sure this won't be broken.

345
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:23,839
It ruins them mentally,
financially and if they have

346
00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,880
this inflammatory
susceptibility, then they are

347
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,359
also ruined.
Their health is ruined so that

348
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,960
the houses that we buy, it's
such a, it's meant to be such a

349
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,000
happy thing and it's like a
celebration.

350
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:36,640
Oh, congratulations, you've
bought a house and then and then

351
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,760
and then this comes out of it.
It's just unfathomable.

352
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,840
But I did see that there was
$600 million of state funds

353
00:17:42,360 --> 00:17:45,800
awarded to I'm not sure who, but
I read in one of the articles

354
00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:46,880
that you sent me carried that
they were.

355
00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:48,880
Yeah, they were.
What did they pay for?

356
00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:53,200
Well, that paid for the
rectification of the highest

357
00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:58,760
deemed buildings, the ones that
needed to get the cladding off

358
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,480
ASAP.
We actually went out and saw

359
00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:04,040
Richard win.
I think I went there in about

360
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:09,600
2019 because you know, when,
when I think, when the

361
00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:12,120
government came knocking and
said, you know, you're going to

362
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:18,400
have to get your cladding off
and rah, rah, rah, you know, I

363
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,720
sat back and I thought, this is
wrong.

364
00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,880
I didn't put it on the building.
So a few of us stepped up and

365
00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,520
started petitioning government
and fighting and talking to MPs

366
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,600
and really going out and trying
to get everyone to listen.

367
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:40,040
I start the Greens got involved
at some stage and they called a

368
00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:42,040
meeting with everyone that had
cladding.

369
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,760
So there was probably about, I
think 50 of us there.

370
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:51,800
So we all got together and we,
we formed a group and a Facebook

371
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:57,280
page and then we went out and,
you know, a couple of us had

372
00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,320
ideas and we, we petitioned
people.

373
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:06,120
I think that's why Richard Wynne
gave us the 600 million to fix

374
00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:11,040
the most probably potential fire
burning buildings.

375
00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:14,520
I also heard somewhere I read in
one of those articles that there

376
00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:16,680
was actually a 24 hour fire
warden.

377
00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,600
We had, we had more than it.
Yeah, we had that.

378
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:22,920
So that people could actually
rest and sleep at night because

379
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:25,400
if.
Well, I think that I really

380
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,080
actually think that was a bit of
a, you know.

381
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,200
Bit of a desk I.
Mean there'd been people living

382
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,360
there for ages, well, not ages
for a couple of years, and

383
00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:39,160
nothing had happened.
And all of a sudden, you know,

384
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:43,400
there's a fire in London and all
of a sudden this comes to light.

385
00:19:44,120 --> 00:19:46,280
Did this happen?
I mean we have had a few flies

386
00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:47,640
here.
Then did this come to light?

387
00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:50,240
Sorry, did all of this come to
light before Grenfell Tower or

388
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,920
after?
They knew about it before

389
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,920
Grenfell.
But it was raised, so when these

390
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,320
inspectors came knocking on your
door, that was after.

391
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:02,520
Well, actually our inspectors
came knocking on our door

392
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,240
because the first when the
cladding started when and we had

393
00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,920
a meeting with the VBAI sort of
said well how come you're here

394
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:15,120
1st and they I got a.
I got an answer back.

395
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:17,440
Oh we we know your building was
dodgy.

396
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,400
Like you would have thought
there was enough cladding up in

397
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,880
town to keep them pretty busy,
but no, they were down in

398
00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,360
Frankston.
And I'd say Terry's building is

399
00:20:27,360 --> 00:20:30,560
one of the worst in the state.
So it's.

400
00:20:31,120 --> 00:20:32,520
And that's just not the
cladding.

401
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:33,880
There was other issues.
Right.

402
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:39,720
And and so if I can say that I
think Gary can correct me if I'm

403
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:41,760
wrong, I think the cladding that
was covered in their building

404
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,200
was like, I think the government
contributed 1.5 million or so.

405
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,440
Is that correct, Kerry?
Yeah, I think it was roughly

406
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,760
about that or two. .5 to
$2,000,000 actual overall cost

407
00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:54,800
to fix all the issues in their
property is about 12.

408
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,000
It's probably.
Been another 3 or 4.

409
00:20:59,120 --> 00:21:01,720
But I think, I think the overall
cost is about $12 million.

410
00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:05,240
But to fix the key things that
you have to fix straight away,

411
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,440
it's you look at that, they're
up to 3 or 4.

412
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:09,760
No, Chris, it came down a bit.
It has.

413
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:10,600
Has it.
There you go.

414
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,400
Yeah.
Yeah.

415
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,960
So I think we're probably be
going to be up for 3 or 4.

416
00:21:16,360 --> 00:21:18,200
That's still plenty.
That's.

417
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:24,720
Between 30, between 33 of us and
at 10.7% interest.

418
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,600
Yeah, I'm glad to hear it's
dropped from the original

419
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:33,320
estimates of around or so, but
it's still a lot for 33 people

420
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,480
to who are how many of them but
spare cash as well.

421
00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:39,400
Well, no, none of us have got
any spare cash.

422
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,440
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423
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,400
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424
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431
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,080
So Kerry, when you decided to
actually take this on, because

432
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,000
I'm sure there'd be plenty of
people who wouldn't go so public

433
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,920
with this.
They would just kind of, I

434
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:13,800
don't, I don't really know what
people would do.

435
00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:18,880
But what made you speak up?
But do you have like in your

436
00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,040
career, were you someone who was
quite public?

437
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,560
Facing or did.
You you just really want to be

438
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,120
heard.
I used to, I used to do accounts

439
00:22:26,120 --> 00:22:30,840
receivable and debt collection.
So I've sort of dealt with

440
00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,840
people that have tried to, I
suppose, get away with things

441
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,960
and not pay their bills.
And I've always been a person

442
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:42,480
that's paid their bills and done
the right thing and this is

443
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,000
wrong.
It was wrong.

444
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,680
This was so wrong and it was
going to affect so many people.

445
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,280
And how did you, how did you get
public facing?

446
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,000
Did you?
Ring I just annoyed everyone

447
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,880
didn't know Chris.
And we we got the then I got

448
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:00,560
there.
So I was in federal politics,

449
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,200
but I got the then like shadow
Minister Tim, who was it?

450
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,320
Tim?
Tim Smith.

451
00:23:06,360 --> 00:23:08,680
Sorry.
Tim Smith came out and he

452
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,880
actually took a real interest in
it and actually helped to

453
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,400
advocate at the time.
And then it got in a lot of.

454
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,440
And he got us in Parliament to
see Richard Wynne.

455
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:22,880
So he got him.
He got him in to see that the

456
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,200
Labour government minister at
the time, Richard Wynne and it

457
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,400
was in multiple different media
outlets current up near and

458
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,800
everything else.
But then still nothing really

459
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,800
happened in terms of this guy
being properly accountable and

460
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:41,600
some sort of compensation or for
for the owners there because of

461
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,400
the failed regulatory framework.
It's nuts, isn't it?

462
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,320
You buy a car or you buy a dress
or a pair of shoes and it's

463
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,120
faulty.
You can take it back you.

464
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:52,680
Can take it back.
You can go to Kmart and buy, go

465
00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,320
to Kmart and buy a toaster and
take it back.

466
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,400
You, you buy the biggest, you
buy the biggest purchase of your

467
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:05,080
life and you know what?
There's no consumer protection.

468
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,160
Crazy.
All right, nothing.

469
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,520
Sorry, we sort of we've touched
on the Building and Plumbing

470
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,760
Commission before and we kind of
digress from it.

471
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,400
So let's go back to that because
that is Victoria's solution to

472
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,120
this problem that this is their
answer.

473
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:26,160
So, Chris, do you understand, do
you have any comment on the

474
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:27,840
Building and Plumbing Commission
and what its new powers are

475
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,480
going to be?
Yeah, I think, I think it's

476
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,080
important to, I think have a new
Commission in place.

477
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,880
But at the same time you you
don't want to be basically the

478
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,560
VBA but with the new name and
having yeah.

479
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,560
I guess the same issues.
Pop up again, you want a new

480
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:47,880
regulator who actually regulates
properly.

481
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,600
And enforces it.
That's that's right.

482
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,080
So certainly need to obviously,
obviously it's the smart

483
00:24:55,080 --> 00:24:57,400
regulation that supports
builders who are trying to do

484
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,840
the right thing, but at the same
time stopping those who are

485
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,920
doing the Dodger thing doing
doing the wrong thing.

486
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:06,720
So it's, it's basically it's,
it's bringing together the VBA,

487
00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,280
the domestic building dispute
resolution Victoria and the

488
00:25:10,360 --> 00:25:13,160
domestic building insurance
function of the Victorian

489
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,720
Managed Insurance Authority, the
VMIA.

490
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,400
And as you said before, from the
1st of July, the Building and

491
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,320
Plumbing Commission will
officially start.

492
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,280
And hopefully they'll work
closely with industry

493
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:29,680
stakeholders, the community, but
also particularly consumers who

494
00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,120
have been affected, buyers and
owners and renters who have been

495
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,560
affected like Kerry, because
they're really the people that

496
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,560
need to be listened to.
And obviously there with any

497
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,680
change, there's going to be
potentially transition problems,

498
00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:45,000
I'm sure.
Yeah, there's not too much of

499
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,400
that.
But yeah, it's certainly

500
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,840
something that I guess is needed
to happen in particular because

501
00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,800
consumers have not been
protected in the past properly.

502
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,720
And sometimes builders who are
trying to do the right thing,

503
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:56,920
it's been hard for them to
operate.

504
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,880
And as I said, they it's it's
harder to compete with those who

505
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,920
are trying to cut corners and
cut costs and doing the wrong

506
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,840
thing when they're not being
regulated properly.

507
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:06,760
Yeah.
One of the biggest problems in

508
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,080
the construction industry in
terms of quality control is that

509
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,680
we don't have our own checks.
No one checks really like no one

510
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,520
checks anything.
There's, there's, there's one or

511
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:23,400
one, one framing check maybe.
I think in, in, in SA, I think

512
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,880
we have one or or maybe 2 checks
per construction project.

513
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,160
And I think that's it.
How can you check that anything

514
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,080
is done?
How can you check that

515
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,200
waterproofing is done correctly?
How can you check that

516
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:37,080
insulation has been installed
correctly?

517
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,440
How can you check that the right
windows have been put in?

518
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:41,680
I mean, this is all stuff that I
think about how can and that's

519
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,680
why it needs to go.
Back to the council.

520
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,480
Well, I think surveys need to go
back to it needs to go back to

521
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,760
the council.
When you know, Bob, Sandy and

522
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,080
Mark, we're all sitting around
and saying, you know, where are

523
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:59,120
we up to with, you know, it's
Street House, you know, and

524
00:26:59,120 --> 00:27:02,600
they'd all sit there and talk
about it and go out and check.

525
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:04,760
This was amazing.
It's all gone.

526
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,240
Downhill since it's the
deregulation now.

527
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,400
Now the surveyors are going out
there and basically if you know,

528
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,040
pass the builders stuff, some of
the builders stuff, they're not

529
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,960
going to get that work back.
They're not going to get repeat

530
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,360
work from that builder if they
go out and say, well, this is

531
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:24,120
stuff.
Because I think you had asked

532
00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:25,680
about what powers they'll have
as well.

533
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,160
That's I guess additional power.
So some of the new powers

534
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,040
include say there's a new
rectification order power, which

535
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,280
will basically will allow the
allow the regulator to act

536
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,680
against the builder even after
an occupancy permit is issued.

537
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,720
And so that's, that's really
important where because defects,

538
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,320
as you're saying, Curie's case
are only discovered after the

539
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,240
homeowner moves in as as
occurred in Curry's house.

540
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,840
There's also powers in relation
to compelling developers of

541
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,040
apartment buildings above 3
stories to notify the regulator

542
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,920
before a building is occupied so
that the regulator can conduct a

543
00:27:59,920 --> 00:28:02,280
final inspection.
I believe Kerry's place is under

544
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:03,840
three stories.
So that's probably, yeah, not

545
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,960
quite as helpful with the 33
apartments there.

546
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,160
Yeah, it's it's, it is an
important thing for, I guess,

547
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,720
larger apartment buildings.
The other aspect is apartment

548
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,080
owners will be better protected
with that developer bond

549
00:28:15,120 --> 00:28:18,440
introduced from mid to high rise
apartment buildings to say

550
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,160
rectify defects even after the
occupant, sorry, the occupancy

551
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,200
permit is issued.
And then DBI will also be

552
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,880
expanded to respond when a
builder has failed to comply

553
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,600
with a new rectification order.
So that basically means that the

554
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:35,360
builder will no longer must be
insolvent, disappear or die

555
00:28:35,360 --> 00:28:40,200
before a claim can be made.
So, so the builder must be

556
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,120
insolvent, disappear or die
before a claim can be made.

557
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,280
I I mean to say.
So if all of that works and if

558
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,680
all of that is enforced
correctly, would that mean that

559
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,000
Kerry's situation would not have
happened?

560
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,800
Well, or the way it did it would
have been.

561
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:58,680
I think that first power, the
first power that I mentioned in

562
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,440
terms of the rectific, a new
rectification or the power to

563
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,200
allow the regulator to act
against the bill after the OXBY

564
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,440
permit is issued may have had an
impact in their case.

565
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,840
But things like the bond, it
wouldn't wouldn't apply for

566
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:16,160
smaller rise apartment buildings
like Kerry's, the compelling

567
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,320
developers of apartment
buildings above 3 stories that

568
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,960
wouldn't apply to notify the
regulator before a building is

569
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,400
building is occupied that that's
not going to apply in Kerry's

570
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:24,960
situation.
So I think I think there are

571
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,880
still gaps.
There are still gaps for say

572
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,760
apartments that are low rise
apartment buildings like like

573
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,240
Kerry's and the other 33
property owners there.

574
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,600
So I also am, I'm afraid, like
with any regulator sometimes I

575
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,840
hope that can do that, can do a
better job than the VBA.

576
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,480
But I do worry that they might
do the wrong thing as well.

577
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,520
I worry that they will make it
hard for the builders who are

578
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:49,920
trying to do the right thing
while not taking sufficient

579
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,800
action against those who are
doing the wrong thing.

580
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,760
Much has happened with the BBA
so that's that's a worry but

581
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:57,080
we'll have to wait and see I
guess.

582
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,600
I guess we'll just wait and see.
Do you think that this will push

583
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,560
developers to just stick to
three stories?

584
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,640
I'll stick to no higher than
three stories.

585
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:10,120
Yeah.
Not necessarily because yeah, if

586
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,760
if you are going above 3
stories, obviously see there can

587
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,080
be you're investing more, but
there is more to be made

588
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,840
potentially as well.
So whereas the investment in it,

589
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,800
I guess the lower rise apartment
you might not be as much profit

590
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,720
margin available, but yeah, you
that will be held a lot more

591
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,320
accountable for I guess mid to
higher rise apartment buildings.

592
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,240
But even with the new
rectification or the power, that

593
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,040
will certainly have an impact
for low rise apartment buildings

594
00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:37,200
like Kerry's as well.
Had that power ban in yeah, when

595
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,760
Kerry had lived there even after
the occupancy permit was issued

596
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,040
in Kerry's case for Kolka.
And that would have it would

597
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,440
have allowed the regulator to
act against the builder.

598
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,680
So that might have made a
difference at the time.

599
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,000
But unfortunately, these things
are not retrospective.

600
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,640
And I do think that the state
government does need to

601
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,640
intervene in cases like Kerry's.
I've suggested a few other ideas

602
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,600
in the past that perhaps that
perhaps there might even be a

603
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,880
compulsory requisition and a
repurposing of those apartments

604
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:08,640
where the state government then
steps in to fix the issues that

605
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,000
are there and spends the money
there.

606
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,400
And it could be utilized for,
say, disability housing or other

607
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,920
things like that, but where the
current owners don't have to put

608
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,600
into their own pocket to fix
something or the car owners

609
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,320
aren't in the situation like
they are now where they

610
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,040
basically can't sell the place
because of that negative value.

611
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:26,840
I've got also like.
We're actually nearly.

612
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,200
We're nearly all fixed up.
Oh, you asked.

613
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:30,120
There you go.
Yeah.

614
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,640
Yeah.
But I think the issue though,

615
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,840
Kerry, is that your value of
your property has not been aimed

616
00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:41,360
at what it should be.
Oh, no.

617
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,720
What happened, Sir?
No, I've actually I think I'm up

618
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:50,000
to $110,000 that I have put in
there.

619
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,800
If you crash the car and write
it off, you get you get the

620
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:54,400
insurance company will pay you
out.

621
00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:01,800
Yeah.
Sometimes my experience with

622
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:05,400
insurance is they often
sometimes find a little bit of a

623
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,560
clause where I find a way where
they can walk away from paying

624
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,520
out everything and you wonder
why you get the insurance to

625
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:12,080
start with.
So anyway.

626
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,240
Of course, the 1% chance they
will actually, you know, yeah.

627
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:19,560
But you know, I mean, I've had,
I actually haven't had terrible

628
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:21,120
luck with insurance companies
and cars.

629
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,040
I haven't had much 'cause to use
them, but on the couple of

630
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,280
occasions I have, I have been
fortunate that they were

631
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,680
cooperative.
It's just, it's the VBA.

632
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,960
Is there a liability for defects
after handover?

633
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,320
And I think I read something,
I'm not sure if you've already

634
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,240
mentioned it.
So if you have a bet, is there

635
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,840
an insurance inclusion in that?
I thought I read something

636
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,720
somewhere about some sort of
insurance policy as well, like

637
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,480
they would act as an insurer.
With the new authority you mean

638
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:49,240
or the current beg your.
Pardon.

639
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,200
Yeah, the new, yeah.
Well, there is, as I mentioned

640
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,160
that there's a developer bond,
so that's that applies.

641
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:56,760
Well, that's what that.
Is high rise apartment

642
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,160
buildings, which I guess is a
does provide some sort of

643
00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,560
insurance in a way because it
ensures that those funds are

644
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,080
available to rectify defects
after the occupancy permit is

645
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,120
issued.
But again, that that wouldn't be

646
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:09,760
applied to situations like
carries.

647
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,840
OK, so the developer has to has
to front up how much money?

648
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,040
Was it 2%?
I can't.

649
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:16,680
OK.
I think they've got to put up a

650
00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:19,600
substantial amount of money.
And how long does the the

651
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,600
Building and Plumbing Commission
hold on to that fund?

652
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,760
Vote that money?
10 years, wasn't it, Chris?

653
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,640
Yeah, I think.
So it's a 10 year like warranty

654
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:27,720
period?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

655
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,560
OK.
Well that's definitely something

656
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:34,800
as far as what do you think
needs to be done to better train

657
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:36,600
builders so that this doesn't
happen.

658
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,480
Do you think that this is an
integrity issue or a

659
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,400
communication issue, training
issue?

660
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,720
What do you think is actually at
the heart of this problem?

661
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:47,440
Probably a combination, but
perhaps Carrie will get might

662
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:48,920
give an insight.
As someone who's been really

663
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:49,920
affected, I.
Don't know.

664
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:54,560
I think, I don't think people
care.

665
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:58,560
I don't think, I don't know.
There's, there's just no,

666
00:33:59,960 --> 00:34:04,280
there's no care factor.
So you think it's an integrity

667
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,600
issue?
Yeah, I just, I just don't think

668
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,440
people care and I honestly, I
honestly don't know how some of

669
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:16,199
them can sleep at nights after
what some people put people

670
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:18,719
through.
And that is a real so I'd.

671
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,199
Say integrity, maybe it's a bit
easy to get your, you know, your

672
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:25,760
builder's license.
You know, there was, there was

673
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:29,080
something, you know, a while
back where there was someone at

674
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:34,880
the VBA selling VBA was that
yeah, they were charged too and.

675
00:34:35,639 --> 00:34:37,719
I think it's probably a
combination as well.

676
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:41,040
It's down to licensing and a
little bit of integrity as well.

677
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,360
And sometimes you get situations
where you have good builders who

678
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:47,800
are obviously trying to do the
right thing, but when when

679
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,880
there's no consequences,
sometimes for those who are

680
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,880
doing the wrong thing, some
builders who are just trying to

681
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,960
compete might decide, well, I
have to go down that path as

682
00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,440
well if I'm going to stay in
stay in the marketplace.

683
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,520
So it's about having a fair
marketplace.

684
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:03,320
I've done a lot of work in
modern slavery through my role.

685
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,680
And I know it's a different
issue, but a person who utilizes

686
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,880
modern slavery much with
traditional slavery can out

687
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,480
compete everyone else on price.
And sometimes people will go

688
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,040
down that pathway of, of using
slave labor, of paying people

689
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,520
unfairly if it means they can
stay in the market and compete

690
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,840
or others will.
Other good builders just go out

691
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,000
of the market altogether.
And then you get more and more

692
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,200
of the dodgy ones left in the
market to RIP off consumers and

693
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,200
others.
So it's a combination of issues.

694
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,120
Yeah, as I said.
Yeah.

695
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,200
It's such a price driven
industry.

696
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,080
And I just, I just think you get
some builders that care about

697
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:44,560
the their product and there's
there's some builders that just

698
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:48,160
don't.
Unfortunately it's the same in

699
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:52,240
in lots of industries and and
it's the unassuming or unaware

700
00:35:52,240 --> 00:35:56,000
consumer that often doesn't know
the difference between what's

701
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,560
good and what's not that ends up
paying the price.

702
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,720
I think these, I think these
days when you go and buy a

703
00:36:01,720 --> 00:36:05,040
house, you need to be an
engineer, a builder, a survey,

704
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:06,680
you need to go and get all your
tickets for.

705
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,960
Just spend 10 years at uni
first.

706
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:11,800
So then you know what you're
looking.

707
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,880
At maybe we need simpler ways to
see like when you look for a

708
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,080
restaurant online, you see the
reviews online and you can work

709
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:20,600
out roughly if it's going to be
a good restaurant or not.

710
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:24,080
But having a bit more openness
in terms of say a review system

711
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,320
or something to compare builders
a little bit easier.

712
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,400
And yeah, and see, I guess see
from experience what they're

713
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:31,160
like.
I mean, you know, Jess, there is

714
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,800
some good build, there is some
good builders out there.

715
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,400
There are, yeah, I work for one.
There's, I know I work with lots

716
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,920
of them.
Very, very, very good quality,

717
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,960
high integrity, constantly
learning.

718
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,560
So when I hear about this other
side of the industry, I spend my

719
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:51,160
days in this happy little bubble
when we're all doing the right

720
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:52,720
thing.
Yeah.

721
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,720
And sometimes, yeah, if you get
referrals like like which we

722
00:36:57,720 --> 00:37:00,240
basically need to replace the
whole roof in our place, but

723
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,840
we've got a good builder who's
who's done part of the roof so

724
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:04,600
far.
But that was because we've got a

725
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,640
referral from somewhere new and
trusted who then referred this.

726
00:37:07,720 --> 00:37:09,920
Yeah, these people.
But if you don't have those

727
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:13,720
networks or referrals and you
just look in the phone book or

728
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:17,440
or on Google and you pick
someone to do a job, it turns

729
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,480
out that they're not great in
the end.

730
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,440
It's yeah, sometimes you don't
have much opportunity to go back

731
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,040
once it's already done.
And you got to and you got to

732
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,400
check that they got insurance
and there's so many checks that

733
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:34,320
the consumers don't know about.
And that whole buyer?

734
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,280
Needs to run commercials.
Sorry.

735
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,040
That whole buy off the plan
thing is laced with risk as.

736
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,160
Well.
And people are planned for as

737
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:43,360
well.
They don't have time to check

738
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:44,840
all these insurances and
everything else.

739
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,240
They sort of just trust that
someone else is doing it.

740
00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,240
So this is where we we need, we
need a system that where the

741
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:53,240
consumer doesn't doesn't need to
do that sort of things.

742
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:56,320
You should be able to just
contact the person you want to

743
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:58,320
do a job or move.
You should be able to just go

744
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,880
online and check it all out.
Or maybe to a property trust in

745
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:02,920
that things have been done
properly so Kerry should be on

746
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,400
and there was nothing wrong, but
the opposite has happened in her

747
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,200
case.
And how do you find out if

748
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,120
you're buying a property, the
owner or the seller, the vendor

749
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:12,960
of that property isn't going to
tell you all the problems with

750
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:14,600
it because they want you to buy
it.

751
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:21,000
So how do you find out?
Why they have to now I had, I

752
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,800
actually, I had a call, I had a
call last week, someone wanting

753
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:29,480
to buy into one of ours at our
units and I actually just told

754
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,880
her the truth because nothing
was sort of coming out on the

755
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,200
Section 32.
I said to her, look, I don't

756
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,440
think I'd put your 25 year old
in there unless she's got heaps

757
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:44,000
of dough to shell out a bit
further down the track with

758
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,840
extra levies.
I said I'd hate your daughter to

759
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:49,920
go through what I've been
through for eight years.

760
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,480
Do you see, Sorry, you said
earlier, Carrie, that your, your

761
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,000
place is pretty much fixed up.
Is that, is that where you're at

762
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,520
now?
Where, where, where we're at

763
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:02,040
now?
We've got some fire, fire things

764
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:05,680
to do now, so the.
Cladding has been replaced.

765
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,880
Sorry.
Has the cladding been replaced?

766
00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:09,680
Yeah, the cladding has been
replaced.

767
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,480
What did they replace it with?
Hebel.

768
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,080
OK.
We had APS.

769
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:18,280
Originally, sorry, it was APS
originally and they replaced.

770
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,920
It with some hayable panels.
Yeah, yeah, I actually saw a

771
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,080
video the TikTok inspector did a
video where the builders had

772
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,400
deliberately switched out.
Yeah, they switched it out to

773
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:31,920
APS.
Yeah, I know.

774
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:33,080
I don't realise that.
I'm.

775
00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:36,920
Yeah, I'm good friends with
Ziha.

776
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,160
That's a silver lining here,
Carrie.

777
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,280
I find him very entertaining.
Absolutely.

778
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,480
He should actually be doing
that.

779
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,640
He should be.
The VBA should be doing that.

780
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:55,440
Yes, yes, you know the videos.
Yeah, yeah.

781
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,040
So I guess I guess time will
tell, I'll time will tell if the

782
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,680
building and plumbing Commission
can actually deliver on the

783
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:01,840
promises it's making.
It's.

784
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:06,120
Well, it's got to be enforced.
It's only as good as, you know,

785
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:11,160
if it's enforced.
Look, I have got, I have got, I

786
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,800
do like Anna.
I have spoken to her quite a few

787
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:20,200
times and I think she'll be OK.
She's got to weed out, you know,

788
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,160
she's got to weed out some
people there.

789
00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:24,120
I suppose.
She's got to work out who's

790
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,760
who's with her and who's not
with her, you know what I mean?

791
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,560
Sorry, you might have to explain
who Anna is for me and for

792
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:31,320
anyone else.
Who?

793
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:32,920
Anna Cronin.
She's the head.

794
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:34,920
Anna who?
Head of the BBA?

795
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,320
Sorry.
Anna who?

796
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,440
Yes, right, I have heard of her.
Yes, also every in South

797
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,320
Australia.
So I think, I think she's got a

798
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:48,280
big job ahead of her and I think
she's going to work out, you

799
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,760
know, who's going to be with her
and who's going to be against

800
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:55,360
her.
I mean it, it's a big job.

801
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:57,560
I'd like to think I've got
faith, yeah.

802
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,720
And I know we've we've probably
touched on some of the negative

803
00:41:02,720 --> 00:41:06,400
elements and with dodgy or dodgy
builders who were not doing the

804
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:08,720
wrong thing, whether purposely
or otherwise.

805
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,640
But I would I guess give a shout
out to all the good builders out

806
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,160
there as well who are listening
and involved because we need

807
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:16,960
good builders to stay in the
industry.

808
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,920
We need more new builders to
enter the industry because we do

809
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,520
need, we do have a house in
shortage and we do need more

810
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,440
house and supply in Victoria,
both regular housing, affordable

811
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,280
housing, public housing.
So there's a major need for this

812
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:31,800
industry.
It's just it just needs to be

813
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,880
done right, both to protect
builders who are doing the right

814
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,640
thing, but also to protect
consumers as well and anyone

815
00:41:37,720 --> 00:41:40,400
else.
And not rush and not rush and

816
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:42,240
just have pride in your work.
Exactly.

817
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,280
I mean we, you know, at the
moment there's, you know,

818
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,640
there's been quite a few years
that we've been building a third

819
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:54,760
world Vic.
It's Have you both heard of the

820
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,560
leaky building crisis over in
New Zealand?

821
00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,720
Sorry.
Have you both heard of the leaky

822
00:41:59,720 --> 00:42:03,800
building crisis in New Zealand?
I don't think so.

823
00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:09,040
Yeah.
So basically what's happened in

824
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:12,880
Victoria is very similar to what
happened over in New Zealand in

825
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,120
the late 80s through to the
early 2000s.

826
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,920
They had a lot of deregulation,
privatization of certifiers, a

827
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:22,800
lot of new products, products
coming into the industry.

828
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:29,280
Apprenticeships were less, I
think they were shortened, less

829
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,240
inspections.
All these government changes

830
00:42:32,240 --> 00:42:33,920
happened.
It was like this conglomeration

831
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,000
of all these different things
happening all at once that led

832
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:41,520
to also increases in in energy
efficiency through this time.

833
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,520
And all these factors led to
what they can now call the leaky

834
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:49,640
building crisis, where there was
cladding crisis, where there was

835
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:55,600
waterproofing, weatherproofing
issues and $47 billion worth of

836
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,560
water damage was done to to
houses all over New Zealand.

837
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:05,800
And I see, I see this issue in
Victoria as a mini leaky

838
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,520
building crisis that happened in
New Zealand and it also happened

839
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:10,760
in Canada at the same time, very
similar issues.

840
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:12,800
So this is not new.
This is something that's been

841
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,200
happening globally for quite
some time.

842
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,200
And I'd really like it if, if
Australia, if the Australian

843
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,240
industry could take those
lessons from New Zealand, which

844
00:43:22,240 --> 00:43:25,960
is just across the ditch, not
very far away, and from Canada

845
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:30,080
and all of the the building
scientists and consultants and

846
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,920
builders all over the world who
know what went wrong and how to

847
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:37,040
avoid that happening in the
future.

848
00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,160
I'd really like it if our
industry could learn from those

849
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,320
mistakes and not keep repeating
them.

850
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,480
And privatization of
certification was definitely one

851
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,960
of the big factors.
Yeah.

852
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,000
And yeah, I see it unfolding in
a similar way here.

853
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,400
So I hope that the Building and
Plumbing Commission can really

854
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:02,200
deliver on the improvements that
it is claiming to be making and

855
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,640
making construction safer for
consumers in Vic.

856
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,960
We hope so as well, yeah.
And if not, we'll be certainly

857
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,200
keeping the state government
accountable from the

858
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:13,600
opposition's perspective.
Excellent, good work.

859
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,520
We'll have to.
All right.

860
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:17,880
Well, I think we will.
We will finish up this

861
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,760
conversation on one final
question that I ask all of my

862
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,480
guests on this podcast is my
final question.

863
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,160
What is the one thing that you
want people to know?

864
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:31,080
Chris, you first.
In the building industry or in

865
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,400
generally?
Whoever is listening.

866
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:38,720
So builders, architects,
homeowners, out of everything

867
00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:41,000
that you've learnt through this
whole process and everything

868
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,400
that you've done in your career,
what is the one thing you want

869
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,120
people to know?
I think just do your due

870
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,360
diligence when you are say
choosing builders or others, the

871
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,240
trade is to do work for you, but
also do your due diligence when

872
00:44:52,240 --> 00:44:55,520
you are buying a new property or
moving into a property as well.

873
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,400
That's yeah, I guess in the
absence of proper regulation is

874
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:00,680
you certainly do need to do
that.

875
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:02,920
And Carrie, how about you?
Hello.

876
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,760
Yeah, I'd like to say to the
ones that are doing a good job,

877
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,160
good on you, and to the ones
that aren't doing a good job and

878
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:16,920
you know, probably who you are,
get out of the industry because

879
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,400
you destroy people's lives.
Sadly, that is proven to be

880
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:22,280
true.
Yeah.

881
00:45:23,240 --> 00:45:25,200
All right.
Thank you very much, Chris and

882
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,680
Kerry.
I appreciate your time and your

883
00:45:27,720 --> 00:45:31,040
your honesty and all of your
advocacy and industry.

884
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,960
That is all for today.
Thanks so much for tuning in.

885
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,880
There'll be another episode on a
fortnight, so if you would like

886
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:42,200
to listen in to the types of
conversations that I have all

887
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,000
the time, please subscribe on
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888
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,880
Write the show, leave a comment,
whatever you like, share with

889
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,240
your friends and family.
I'd love for you to spread the

890
00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:52,120
word about the Building Soology
potty.

891
00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:55,160
There's a link in the episode
description where you can head

892
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,760
to a landing page and there are
some show notes there with

893
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,880
relevant links and a full
transcript of the show as well,

894
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,000
and also links to my socials.
So if you're not already, I'd

895
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:06,520
love for you to follow along
there too as I share lots of

896
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,600
building science and building
biology tips.

897
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,000
Thanks again.
I'll be back in two weeks, so

898
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:12,920
until then, happy healthy
building.