#23 - A Dialogue with Dr Wolfgang Feist, Founder of The Passive House Institute

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Hello and welcome to another
episode of the Building

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Psychology Party.
This weekend just gone was the

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International Passivhaus Open
Day weekend, so I really hope

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that you got along to see and
feel a certified Passivhaus for

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yourself.
I'm absolutely thrilled today to

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have the founder of the
International Passivhaus

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Institute himself on the show,
Doctor Wolfgang Feist.

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It was super lucky that I got to
record this interview with him

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just in time to release today.
So I really hope that you enjoy

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our conversation.
Before we get started though, I

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just want to say I would love it
if you could hit follow on your

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chosen podcast listening
platform so that you don't miss

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a future episode.
And if you are loving the

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content, please leave me a five
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push the show out and helps more
people discover the building.

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Sology potty.
All right, let's get into my

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discussion with Doctor Wolfgang
Feist.

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Cheers.
Hello and welcome to the

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Building Psychology potty, where
we talk about better buildings

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to live and breathe in.
My name is Jess Kismet and I am

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your host.
When we talk about truly

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revolutionary shifts in building
science, very few ideas have

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reshaped the way we think about
comfort, energy, and durability

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like the Passivhaus standard.
Behind that revolution is one

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man, Doctor Wolfgang Feist,
physicist, researcher, and

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founder of the Passivhaus
Institute in Darmstadt, Germany.

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Long before net zero and
sustainability were industry

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buzzwords, Wolfgang and his team
were building airtight, ultra

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efficient homes that changed
what it feels like to live in a

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building that truly works.
Today I am honored and honestly

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pretty excited to dive into this
conversation with the man who

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started it all.
Welcome Doctor Wolfgang Feist.

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Thank you.
Thank you for the invitation.

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I'm I enjoy to be with you.
Excellent.

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All right, so let's dive into
the first question.

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I would really love to know why
you started the Passive House

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standard in the 1st place.
Why did you create it take us

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back to the mid 90s or even a
bit earlier than that?

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And I'd love a little bit of a
history lesson.

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OK, I'll take you much earlier.
In 1897, Fridge of Nansen in

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farthest N, he wrote the
following thing.

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Eyesight.
The sides of the ship were lined

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with tart felt.
Then came a space with cork

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padding next to deal panelling,
then a thick layer of felt.

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Next airtight linoleum.
The skylight was protected by

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three panes of glass.
The from is a comfortable abode,

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therefore the formal matter
stands at 22° above 0 or 22°

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below it.
We have no fire in the stove.

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I'm thinking to having the stove
removed altogether.

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It's only in the way.
End of citation.

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So well, that sounds a lot like
passive house.

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Well, it's a passive ship, so we
I.

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Started in a ship.
With, with, with physical

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solutions for a comfortable
home, be it a ship.

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They're already known by
experienced engineers at the end

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of the 19th century.
It's interesting.

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Yeah.
Well, as we're saying, where we

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started the new resort on the
Passive House in 1987, we didn't

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know about the front.
That was we, we discovered that,

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that later, but what we did
know, that was the experience

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from Sweden and Denmark with the
so-called low energy buildings.

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We already had decades of
experience with low energy

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buildings and I visited Lund
University beginning in 1986 to

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learn about that Swedish
research.

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I I wanted to to use these
results for the development in

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Central Europe and I was guided
by Professor Boo Adamson and he

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was somehow the foreign minister
of Building Physics of Sweden.

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He was travelling around the
world and he had just been to

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China to give advice to the
local Chinese government how to

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improve the formal comfort in
residential buildings in

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southern China.
And the delicate fact was that

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heating was forbidden there, so
we couldn't run a stove.

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So and quite often that was not
really comfortable temperatures.

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Can you?
Imagine it was pretty cold. 12°

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yeah, sometimes.
Oh, I guess, yeah.

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See near to Shanghai, Yeah, and
less.

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And now the government asked how
can we improve the from the

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comfort in these buildings
without introducing active

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hitting because we still had a
lack of fuel.

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So Adamson ran thousands of
computer simulations to look

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into the least expensive
measures to improve that

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comfort.
And he called these homes

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passive houses.
That is where the name come

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from, because from a technical
viewpoint, if you if you run

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simulations on buildings, these,
these are thermodynamic

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simulations, but we the
structure of the mathematical

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equations, they are the same as
the structure of of electric

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circuits simulation.
So there are resistances and

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heat capacitors and so on.
And in electronics we call

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systems which do not introduce
energy passive systems.

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So that was where the name with
the name came from the.

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So when he came back to Lund, to
the university and he met me and

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he was, he had a fixed idea.
That is, what about constructing

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passive houses in the much
colder European client?

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That is what he came back from
China And.

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And my first reaction was.
Now my friend has gone in saying

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from my from my from my own
reaction is why I understand.

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But something like that is quite
often the first reactions to

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such an idea.
Yeah, I've seen that almost

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everywhere.
Yeah.

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You, you come back to it later,
I think.

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Yeah.
But after a few days of of

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discussion, we came to a
conclusion.

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Yes, why not?
Let's let's try a picture.

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Physics doesn't stand in more
way.

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It might be a bit challenging,
the very contemporary state of

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art in construction that we were
aware of, but it it should be

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possible.
And, and now it was up to me,

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yeah, to start not thousands,
but 10 thousands of simulations

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of the formal behaviour of such
buildings within Central

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European and Swedish climates.
And we wanted to find how this

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could be done.
But it didn't stop with the

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theory.
It had to be built.

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So we had to develop highly
insulating building envelopes,

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really airtight and without
important thermal bridges.

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We had to look for triple pane,
double low emissivity window

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panes, insulated frames, energy
efficient ventilation systems, a

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lot of things that had to be
developed and produced in small

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pilot series.
It was done in 1988 to 1990,

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mainly in that in that time.
And the building was constructed

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in 1991 to 1990.
Yeah, end of 1991 to just one

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day to one, one year to to
realise the building.

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It it, it was built by local
construction film, and it has

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been occupied by four families.
Since when?

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Yeah.
So that is how it started that

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this story goes on.
Yeah.

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It could fill several hours.
How it was monitored.

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Yeah.
They have some 200 cents.

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It's not so surprising nowadays,
but in 1990 we compared the

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theory, the simulation with the
measured results and, and

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already the very first Passive
House.

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It wasn't that expensive.
Yeah, well, it was expensive

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enough not to be, not to be
copied, just one, one to one by

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everybody from the very
beginning.

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But it wasn't even fought with
weight.

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It was fought as a proof of
concept, scientific proof of

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concept and a leading idea how
the environment could be

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improved.
Yeah, that was so.

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So that was the starting point.
And it took several more steps

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to see, to realise, well, this
isn't only a scientific

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research.
It could really be done in

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practice.
And it could be done not only

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for Central European farmers,
but I, I think almost everywhere

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on, on on the planet.
Yeah, So.

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So there are several other parts
of, of stories that have been

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lots of contributions from all
around the world.

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We had one time we had to visit
by I don't know whether you you

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know him by Amory Lovins from
the Rocky Mountains Institute

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from, from the US.
And he was the one who said, Oh,

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well, Wolfgang, you are
completely wrong.

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I, I, I, I was shocked.
Yeah.

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So, well, he he was somehow the
Pope of energy efficient

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construction.
Now you are completely wrong.

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I said no, He said, no, this is
not, this is not just a

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scientific experiment.
This was what I tried to, to, to

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tell him.
He said this is the solution so.

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So now just start to get it less
expensive to develop the

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components we can produce and
factor sized small, medium and

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even big construction and and
manufacturer scale.

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So that's another part of the
story.

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Yeah.
So there are a lot of

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contributions like that and and
some of them you know, you know,

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from the development in
Australia or in other parts of

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the world.
Yeah.

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So which is how it how it came
to be?

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Fantastic.
Thank you.

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So was it 1891 you said?
Yes.

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The book is from 1877 and and
from.

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I don't know when the from was,
but it was even earlier.

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He, he, he, he used that to
travel around the Arctic cycle.

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So he was months away from home.
And he really described why he

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did it the way he, he did
because he had already some

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experience.
What happens if you have a a

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boat or a home or whatever you
call it and you take it far to

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the north or it's extremely cold
and then you have people inside

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it?
Yeah, he, he knows about, he, he

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didn't know.
He, he writes about it.

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He, he now read me.
The water was running down the

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cold surfaces.
The the beds were were were wet

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and after a a few weeks, it it
wasn't possible to sleep any

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longer.
And and so he came to the

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conclusion he has if he wants to
be successful to reach the

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Arctic cycle and and to travel
with the Arctic ice, he had to

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build a ship which which can
withstand these conditions.

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This is how he from a scientific
approach he designed the from

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and if if you look into that I I
cited his text.

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If you look into that text, you
see the solution was a passive

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ship.
That's.

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Fascinating.
Already in I, I, I don't I don't

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exactly know when he when he
built it.

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It must have been in 181870 or
something like that.

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Quite it.
Quite early, yeah.

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That's fascinating.
And so the building in Germany,

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your very first certified
passive house in Downstart, you

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said that you monitored that
building.

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Did it, did it perform how you
thought it was going to?

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Well.
It was one of the other

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surprising things.
It it performed better when when

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our our calculations had always
been on the safe side.

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Yeah, because of course it would
have been quite risk.

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This was not a experimental
building.

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It just we've simulated
occupants like a like a in

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Candice camp bulb or something
to hit it.

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It was really occupied building
and the families who moved in

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made paid for that building.
We didn't even have a huge, a

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huge research fund, not at all.
It it was just so it was.

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The private It was the private
owner.

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So a private, yeah.
So, so we so we had to make sure

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that it was really working.
So we calculated on the safe

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side and and we also looked for
all the details.

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Very, just to mention one thing,
there hasn't been any really

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airtight envelope being built I
think or all around the world at

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that time.
And being we knew about the

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experience in Sweden, the
Swedish head at that time, we

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had a, a standard going for 1.5
air changes per hour.

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And, and, and we thought, well,
maybe we can meet .8 something

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like that.
And and we took it very

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seriously.
We looked at every detail we we

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built even was going through
building and, and, and painting

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every every part with a, with,
with a of course with a

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diffusion open paint things with
the physics new at that time

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already.
Yeah.

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So about airtight.
Yeah, so and, and then the first

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polarization test came.
That's another story.

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Yeah, because pressurization
test at that in that period that

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wasn't available as a standard
measurement.

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It was something that had been
tested in Swedish laboratories.

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So, so we, we had to to build
our own equipment to do that,

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that, that test and and then
slowly the ventilator went on

230
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,000
and then we already saw, Oh
well, be it.

231
00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,720
Suddenly the pressure pulled up
only with very small movement of

232
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:30,520
the ventilator.
And so we know.

233
00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,640
OK, yeah, that seemed to, to, to
have worked.

234
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,200
What came, what, what was the
result?

235
00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:44,800
It was a .17 air change per hour
and 15 years old very first

236
00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:53,880
maybe maybe say, Oh no, we now
we see it's not that difficult

237
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,840
as a lot of people think.
And it's also one, one thing I

238
00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,680
have to tell you about that air
tightness that's often some

239
00:16:00,680 --> 00:16:04,320
people fear it or whatever.
Yeah.

240
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:10,400
So this isn't very tight.
What is tight is is is a

241
00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:12,880
spacecraft.
A spacecraft is tight.

242
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,920
It's really airtight and it's
it's good.

243
00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:21,080
So because it will lose if, if a
if a spacecraft would only be as

244
00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,440
tight as our passive houses
point to air changes power, it,

245
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,680
it would take 10 seconds and all
the air would be gone from the

246
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:32,200
spacecraft, the pressure from
inside out.

247
00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,440
So, so air tightness might even
be the wrong word to be used

248
00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,280
because from a physical part of
this is not tight.

249
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:44,560
It, it, it just a little bit
tighter than than ordinary.

250
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,480
So, so you don't have the
drafts, you don't have the

251
00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:52,040
winged infiltration, you don't
have all the, the, the humid

252
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,960
airflow out through the
envelope, which will at the end

253
00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:59,240
destroy the envelope.
Yeah, which is what we what we

254
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,680
avoid, but it's still not tight
in that sense.

255
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,200
It's.
Yeah, terminology matters, and

256
00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,599
that term does scare people.
They think they're not going to

257
00:17:07,599 --> 00:17:10,960
be able to breathe.
Yeah, and it's been and that's

258
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:14,200
not true.
And and that's also one reason

259
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,599
you you may maybe come back to
that.

260
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:22,720
It's one reason why I even do
not recommend it to go much

261
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:27,520
further when we reach with a
good passive house envelope

262
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:32,240
that's in the range of .2 or .3
air changes per hour with 50

263
00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:36,320
Pascal pressure difference
because that is really good

264
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,280
enough.
It's good enough that the

265
00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,720
passive houses will work and
that there will be no damage to

266
00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:47,360
the envelope and that it will
work for hundreds of years

267
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,680
without condensation.
This is this is good.

268
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:56,160
So and now if we, if there is a
situation where the ventilation

269
00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,520
system shouldn't work, it can
happen.

270
00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,440
It's a technical system.
You can have outages of

271
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:07,200
electricity and whatever it can
happen, but it still doesn't

272
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:12,080
matter because if it's a .2 or
.3 air changes with 50 pass cut,

273
00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,400
you still have enough air to
survive.

274
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,680
It's no problem.
No, nothing will happen.

275
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,360
No, it will be a little bit
smelly after two days, something

276
00:18:23,360 --> 00:18:24,360
like that.
A little bit.

277
00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:27,280
Stuffy.
So you will realize, oh, where's

278
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,440
something not not working?
And you, you might open a window

279
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,920
or whatever.
You're still, you can, you can

280
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:35,440
still do that in the passive
past.

281
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:38,160
There's no danger with that.
Not, not, not at all.

282
00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,920
And I have to ask, where did the
.6 air changes per hour standard

283
00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,400
come from?
Where did it come from?

284
00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:56,040
When you when you start to to to
design and and you start to

285
00:18:56,040 --> 00:19:03,520
realise what are the reasons why
normal normal building envelopes

286
00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:11,040
are so untie, yeah so leaky.
You you see that you will end in

287
00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:16,400
a range of .2 to .3 that changes
power with 50 Pascal.

288
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,400
This is what what what we
realized with the very first

289
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,600
project and what we also have
seen with every experienced

290
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,040
builder.
Yeah, they may start when they

291
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,720
do the first project may
complain that it's too difficult

292
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,120
and, and and all these all these
things.

293
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:40,080
But after two or three realized
constructions, we come to the

294
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,240
same point.
If you really design it to be

295
00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:51,920
airtight and and be a little bit
conscious about what you are

296
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:57,800
doing on the building side, you
will reach .2 or .3 air changes

297
00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:04,560
per hour.
So, but, but I I see it's for a

298
00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:09,760
very first try, it might be a
bit challenging so.

299
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:15,080
I was talking what what might be
a good compromise So what what

300
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,200
we need.
It should not be at all higher

301
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:23,720
than one because aft after one
there might be structural damage

302
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:28,720
by exfiltrating humid air.
Yeah, and and also somewhat

303
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,040
only.
But we can also avoid it by

304
00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:32,720
looking at the pressurization
test.

305
00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,880
So if you do a pressurization
test, you will find the the

306
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:41,000
leaks and you can repair them.
And so, well, now we could have

307
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:48,280
discussed whether it should be
.3 or a .4 or .5 or whatever.

308
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:52,160
And well, higher than .6.
It just hurts.

309
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,120
Yeah.
Because it's so easy to, to, to

310
00:20:56,120 --> 00:20:56,800
do better.
Yeah.

311
00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,360
So yes, there there is science
behind it should be as dead

312
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:06,120
light as possible.
And it shouldn't be really

313
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:11,480
spacecraft tight, not necessary.
So somewhere there are

314
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,160
solutions.
And .6 is quite a good

315
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,480
compromise.
OK, so so you were expecting .2

316
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,960
or .3 and .6 is .6 is like a
little bit of like a buffer?

317
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:29,480
.6 is something that well, if we
install triple glazed windows

318
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:34,720
for example, and on the other
side only, I still still have

319
00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:40,480
leak leaks in the in the frame
which add up to more than .6 or

320
00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,120
something that's not but but
there's something wrong.

321
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,040
Yeah, Yeah, I think that's
probably the one of the bigger

322
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,680
problems we have in Australia is
the the, the glazing components,

323
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,760
they're definitely the biggest
source of air leakage in our

324
00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,360
certified passive houses, so.
Looking.

325
00:21:57,360 --> 00:21:58,920
Forward to some improvements in
those.

326
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:04,600
It's so easy to fix that and
raises it's just a question of

327
00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:09,600
of know how and with the with
the windows, this is this is

328
00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,680
just to explain another thing.
This is why we came up with

329
00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:18,280
component certification because
we, we know how you can improve

330
00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:21,120
that.
It's not difficult, not, not

331
00:22:21,120 --> 00:22:25,360
difficult at all.
We, we, we, we have millions of

332
00:22:25,360 --> 00:22:31,680
economs of, of manufacturers
windows which are really tight.

333
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,600
And, and, and so yes, this which
is possible.

334
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,280
It's, it's not only possible,
it's, it's affordable.

335
00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:43,920
It's, it's one of the easy
points, but some people who

336
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:49,040
start with their first projects,
we, we might think because we

337
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,320
are not used to it, which is
always.

338
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:56,000
Well, I'm also, I'm a, a math
teacher and, and so I know it's

339
00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:02,200
sometimes difficult for a young
person to understand what the

340
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:07,600
general concept of say a, a, a,
a differential equation is.

341
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,960
Yeah, but it's, it's only
because it's new for them.

342
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:16,320
And, and so if if you, if you
learn about it, if you

343
00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,200
understand it, if you see what's
going on, it becomes easy.

344
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:22,840
And, and, and and that's the
same here.

345
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,520
Yeah.
And this is somehow also the

346
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,080
secret behind, behind the
development because this is what

347
00:23:28,360 --> 00:23:31,760
what is what has happened
everywhere.

348
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,160
Yeah.
Then people started building

349
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,000
passive houses and in a
different place, say for

350
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,360
example, Romania.
I well remember the first

351
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,760
discussions we had, oh, wet air
tightness, it's impossible.

352
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,400
We can't do that in Romania.
And, and they started and did

353
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,680
first projects and, and ended
with one or 1.1.

354
00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:55,960
And I said, well, it's, it's
still quite good, but you will

355
00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:01,840
see after three years you will
be proud to pronounce, oh, we

356
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:07,360
reach .1 or whatever.
It does.

357
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:10,680
It becomes a competition.
It becomes like even between

358
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,240
building companies and between
supervisors, they just want to

359
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,680
beat each other.
Yes, but, but also, let's be

360
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:21,280
honest here, it doesn't matter
whether it's .3 or .1, it's not

361
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:25,120
a big difference.
So, so This is why I also say,

362
00:24:25,120 --> 00:24:29,680
well, it's with the passive
houses somehow a sweet point

363
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:34,480
where you where you this is what
you need to have a reliable

364
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:39,920
performance or then the
interference of whatever strange

365
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,040
effects highwind velocity so
ever would be.

366
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:49,360
Yeah, it it's it's working.
Yeah, so and we don't need more

367
00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:53,000
when just met.
And the point you make is

368
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,640
obviously very, it's obviously
very valid.

369
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,000
It's easy when you know how,
it's easier when you know how.

370
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,480
And you just have to stay
curious and just start trying,

371
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,560
start trying to do a little bit
better.

372
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,320
We were successful with just the
Fury in the background.

373
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,440
No practical experience with
very first.

374
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,600
Yeah, just the Fury, the physics
behind it.

375
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:16,280
What, what?
How is how can it be that there

376
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,440
is an airflow of inside out from
an envelope?

377
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:25,320
Oh, well, that's a relatively
easy question.

378
00:25:25,360 --> 00:25:30,320
And, and, and from that theory,
we derive how you, you, how you

379
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,680
have to do it.
That's something more about it.

380
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:39,920
It should also be keeping that
air tightness for, say, 40

381
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,240
years, 80 years, 100 years.
Yeah.

382
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,840
Have you tested your first
passive house since it was first

383
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,480
tested to see if it's still
holding up?

384
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:52,320
Of course.
Of course.

385
00:25:53,120 --> 00:25:58,720
The last big test was just a few
years ago, and within the

386
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,120
measurement occurrency it didn't
change, didn't change at all.

387
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,280
So this is not, this is not
something which is automatically

388
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,200
true.
It's true if the if the concept

389
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:17,760
you are using is designed for
longevity and this is what is

390
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,360
also one of the background, this
is what what we always wanted

391
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,120
from the very beginning.
Yes, a building can work for

392
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,920
hundreds of years.
It's not a, this is not a big

393
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,280
problem.
It's it, it, it, it can be done.

394
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,680
We have done it in the past and
we can do it now.

395
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:41,760
My next question is around the
five pillars of a passive House

396
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:47,000
and over in Australia and I
guess globally, but there's a

397
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,640
discussion here about Passive
House principles in inverted

398
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,280
commas and there are the
technically there's no such

399
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,440
thing as Passive House
principles because it's a

400
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,000
certified standard, not a set of
guidelines.

401
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,080
So the five core areas that you
have identified, the five

402
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,280
pillars of a passive house, air
tightness, Samuel Bridge, free

403
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,520
continuous insulation, energy
efficient mechanical heat

404
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,480
recovery, ventilation and high
performance windows.

405
00:27:15,360 --> 00:27:17,960
They are now widely recognized
as the foundations of a good

406
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:19,800
building, good building
performance.

407
00:27:20,360 --> 00:27:23,160
So how do you feel about the
industry using the term Passive

408
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,240
House principles without
certification?

409
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:31,520
See see that is a progress, the
narrative change.

410
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,840
This is impossible.
Then came, which is 1 sided and

411
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,200
exaggerated.
Then came it's too expensive

412
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,800
that now we have, well, we
already do Passive House

413
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:47,320
principles.
Yeah.

414
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:49,600
Oh.
Really.

415
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,760
So you don't mind?
No, not by Christians.

416
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,800
Well, really, do you?
No SO.

417
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,160
Do I mind?
So as long no wait with these

418
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,800
people saying we already do
passive house principles, we

419
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:06,600
have also had that in in in
Germany.

420
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,840
And my question is, well, really
do you?

421
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,360
Because as long as a building
doesn't meet the performance

422
00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:15,000
based standard, it's not a
passive house.

423
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:17,920
And a good analog for that is a
Symphony.

424
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,280
You can have first class
violinist, clarinetists and so

425
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:27,960
on, but as long as all these
people aren't working together

426
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,880
in a well trained orchestra, the
the result might still be a

427
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:38,400
cacophony.
So that is that is why there is

428
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:45,640
more to a building when when
adjust using one or or another

429
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:51,240
component.
It's it's how it really works

430
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,560
together.
And that is what is what is

431
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,000
behind the the passive fast
concept.

432
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:01,520
And this is where the
certification is really helpful.

433
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,880
This is how it's meant.
It's meant to be helpful because

434
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:10,040
it's not, of course, you do not
need a certification.

435
00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,560
It's you, you can do it if you
want.

436
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:18,480
And and I can only highly
recommend that I have seen a a

437
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,920
nice a paper on that by Carl
Rosenmeyer.

438
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,160
You might know her from new.
Sunny car.

439
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,120
She was, she was talking about
about that and, and, and she

440
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,880
showed what is the why this is
such a big advantage because

441
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:41,600
the, the certification process
is a transparent process.

442
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,920
It, it's something like, well,
if if you go to industry, in

443
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:51,920
industry, we are improving way,
way manufacture goods step by

444
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,120
step, step by step by looking
into the results they have.

445
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:03,040
But it's a it it's some somehow
secret to the manufacturer what

446
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:07,040
we do.
So now here we have an an open

447
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:13,000
and transparent process learning
from each project which which is

448
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:18,280
being done and implementing the
the know how gained by this

449
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,920
project into the process.
So this is a a really big

450
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,960
advantage to to use that that
know how.

451
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,160
It's not about controlling
somebody.

452
00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:35,920
It's to assist people to be
successful in in what we do.

453
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,480
How I I think about it.
Yeah.

454
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,520
So you don't see a particular
problem with using the word

455
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,360
passive House principles as long
as it is as long as people are

456
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:54,960
learning and improving?
Yes, What is really important

457
00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:01,720
about not me and not other
people working in the field want

458
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:07,240
to be responsible for things
which do not use the

459
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:15,040
state-of-the-art check and
balance which is necessary to to

460
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,960
make sure that it's working so
that that that is something in

461
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,720
the background.
So, so it doesn't help if you

462
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,960
say you are building for Passive
House principles and at the end

463
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:30,800
you have mould in the in the
building and it it also doesn't

464
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,040
help us to to have such a
situation.

465
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,720
So, so we, we have to be clear
about that.

466
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:42,720
And if you claim to have a
passive house, I always ask is

467
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,200
it certified?
Well, that's a that's a

468
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,640
different thing, yeah.
Claiming to have a certified

469
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:49,920
Claiming to have a passive house
that's not certified.

470
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,800
That's it's, it's, it's not
integral.

471
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:57,400
And, and, and and I have seen
that this is one of the reasons

472
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,360
why we offer that.
Yeah, I have seen that in

473
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,320
Germany.
And then we started low energy

474
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,760
buildings without quality
control.

475
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:14,960
There have been so many
dangerous building problems with

476
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,920
humanity and so on.
And So what at the end, the

477
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,200
narrative was, oh, don't do
that.

478
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,160
It's it will destroy the
building and so on.

479
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,800
And now I'm a physicist.
I know, no, that's not true.

480
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,680
And the contrary, if you do it
in a in a proper way, it will

481
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,280
improve the longevity of a
building, it will improve in

482
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:39,000
your air quality.
We all know that from the

483
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:39,880
experience.
Yeah.

484
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,200
So the question is, how can we
make sure that it's really

485
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,880
working?
And that is where where we try

486
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:52,080
to assist people.
Yeah, we have.

487
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,480
We have builders in Australia
who, and a lot of homeowners or

488
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,520
people who are building houses
who they have this, you know,

489
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:00,840
perception that passive house,
like you mentioned earlier is

490
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,720
too scary and air tightness is
too hard and it's too expensive.

491
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,360
And so they say we want to build
to passive house principles.

492
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,720
And what they mean is they want
just a slightly better building

493
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,960
envelope than what the minimum
construction code requires here.

494
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,280
And I think that's a good thing.
But there is the inherent risk

495
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,200
that you're going to create a
problem.

496
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:25,320
Well, I, I think the, the risk
isn't that high, but there is a

497
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:31,160
risk and, and, and, and the, the
pacifier standard is a way to

498
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,680
avoid that completely because,
because all that experience is,

499
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,560
is always taking and, and, and
ever improving process.

500
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,960
So, so which is why it's working
so well.

501
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:49,840
And This is why you also see
that we we have not have it's

502
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,760
it's it's it's nearly impossible
to believe that we have not have

503
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:58,440
any problem with mold or
something like that in a

504
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:03,880
certified passive House.
It's now 20 years and it's

505
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,040
hundreds of thousands of
buildings.

506
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,920
It's almost unbelievable.
Yeah, this is this is rolling

507
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:15,440
and this is not something it's
not produced in just one factory

508
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,960
like a Mercedes or whatever.
And and even they don't have a

509
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,760
almost zero failure rate.
Yeah, even they don't have.

510
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,440
But this is done by ordinary
architects, built by ordinary

511
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,920
construction firms, built with
components, well improved

512
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:39,639
components, which are also very
much improved to to ordinary

513
00:34:39,639 --> 00:34:43,120
ones.
But, and this is still working

514
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:49,320
because it's it's so it, it's so
well met what you really need to

515
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:53,280
have a successful building.
It's time.

516
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:56,560
For a quick sponsor shout.
Out today's episode of the

517
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,520
Building Psychology party is
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518
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:01,880
amazing sponsors, Enduro
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519
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,760
A huge thank you to these
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520
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helping us spread the word about

521
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:09,240
better buildings to live and
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522
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,800
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523
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,080
Please head over to their
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524
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:20,120
pages.
Yeah, yeah, it's, that is an

525
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:26,600
incredible track record.
I I think so, but this is not.

526
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,880
Not you see, this is not our
idea or our achievement.

527
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,040
It's it's always people who
engage in bed and I, I and I can

528
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,280
see that.
I can see it everywhere.

529
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,240
When you start to look into the
details and if you understand

530
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:47,680
the building physics behind it,
you will of course come to the

531
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:54,320
same conclusions as we did.
So it's, it's a, a self

532
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,680
accelerating process.
What's happening?

533
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,360
Are there are there any changes?
Coming to the passive power

534
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,240
standard, I've just this is a
bit of script, but are there any

535
00:36:02,240 --> 00:36:05,240
changes coming, any developments
or any any changes in the

536
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:06,480
future?
Or is it just got?

537
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:11,040
Is it going to stay as it is?
The the to be honest, I was

538
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:17,040
surprised.
How how little the changes have

539
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,160
been so far.
Yeah.

540
00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,080
So, so, So what we what we do
and recommend now it's it's all

541
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,160
not very far from what we have
done in the very first

542
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,720
experimental building.
Surprising, yeah.

543
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,920
For me as a physicist, it's it's
surprising.

544
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,640
But of course there is progress
all the time going on the the

545
00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:40,080
energy recovery rates of the HIV
system.

546
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,000
So I don't know what it's called
in in Australia maybe.

547
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,240
Yeah, HIV, congratulations with.
Heat recovery or?

548
00:36:45,240 --> 00:36:48,080
Whatever we, we call it a
different, right, These things

549
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,080
have been improved.
When we started it was, it was

550
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:54,960
very difficult to have a system
which has at least 80% recovery

551
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,480
rate.
Nowadays you, you can buy

552
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:00,560
systems with 80%, with 90%
recovery, right.

553
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,440
And now that sounds as if that's
only a little progress.

554
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,240
No, not at all.
Because if 80% you have still

555
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:15,440
20% losses and with 90% the
losses are reduced to 10% and

556
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,320
red meats, that's half of it.
Yeah.

557
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:21,760
So it's much easier now to build
a passive house when it has been

558
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,680
when all these components were
not available, the same thing

559
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:29,440
happening with windows.
So there are now the, the, the

560
00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:35,480
production of really vacuum
glazing is is starting all, all

561
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,320
around.
And it's also much better when

562
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,440
what we had had in the past.
So it also makes it easier to

563
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:45,960
build really efficient
buildings.

564
00:37:46,240 --> 00:37:48,840
So there are all these changes
we see.

565
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,360
There's also all this discussion
about other things like say

566
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,880
nowadays discussion about
embodied carbon.

567
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,440
But that's another thing that
could be discussed for long, for

568
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,160
longer time.
Yeah, just just just to see how

569
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:08,000
a scientist like me approaches
this.

570
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:13,440
That is where where is a
something that most of these

571
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:19,440
discussions do not look into
that is the lifespan of a

572
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,800
building.
A building is not a Coke bottle

573
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,880
which X and hop you, you have
the material, you have the

574
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:33,360
aluminum that you use it for 5
minutes and when you throw it

575
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,840
away, yeah, this is this is
embodied carbon.

576
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,200
Yes, it is.
Yeah.

577
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,240
But a building, a good building
will will will be there for

578
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:51,240
column eighty years, 100 years,
200 years, yeah, even longer.

579
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,160
And which which is what what
what we'll have to to optimize.

580
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,880
Yeah.
And then if if you look into

581
00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,920
that, it's a whole different
story.

582
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:04,160
But no changes to the framework.
Itself.

583
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,960
But there's upgrades, there's,
there's always going, there's

584
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,760
always component upgrades or
component improvements and

585
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:12,400
industry improvements all the
time.

586
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:17,000
No revolutionary.
I, I, I wouldn't see any

587
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,880
revolutionary development in in
few years.

588
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,760
But but you get me wrong.
Yeah, it's not the future.

589
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,040
It's not easy to predict the
future.

590
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,000
Yeah, I would have fought when
we when we started the whole

591
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,400
thing in 1990, I would have
fought that say a couple of

592
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:40,120
years later, 10 years later, you
have to be completely new ideas

593
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,920
and it would be a very different
ways to go on.

594
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:50,880
And I'm a little bit surprised
that it's still all mostly the

595
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,840
same.
But I'm not surprised as a

596
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:58,440
physicist because it's so clear
to understand as long as you

597
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,240
have a losses from a building
envelope and you have to

598
00:40:02,240 --> 00:40:06,480
substitute for these losses by a
big amount of oil or gas or

599
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:09,840
coal.
You have a problem and and so

600
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,640
we're very first step is to
reduce these losses easy.

601
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,280
Yep, Yep, the overarching.
The overarching purpose remains

602
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,840
regardless, and the science
stays the same.

603
00:40:25,240 --> 00:40:27,800
The physics stays the same.
It becomes easier.

604
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,760
From year to year, because more
components are going to be

605
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:36,240
available it it, it's would be
easier to install.

606
00:40:36,240 --> 00:40:40,080
This is why we are concentrated
on it at the moment to make it

607
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:48,240
even even even less to to use
less effort to reach at the same

608
00:40:48,240 --> 00:40:51,560
good results.
This is this is possible.

609
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,320
This has been done in
technological development in,

610
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:02,120
in, in all kinds of, of, of
systems and it's portable in, in

611
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:04,560
buildings as well.
And, and we have seen that,

612
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,840
yeah, that's the reason why.
Well, just to be honest, the

613
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,600
first passive House was not a
single family home.

614
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,520
Two reasons for that first
reason is it it would have, it

615
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,520
wouldn't have proven anything
because the behaviour of the

616
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:24,160
occupants has such a high
influence on, on on what's going

617
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,320
on in the building that just
having one example doesn't

618
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:30,720
doesn't work.
But that's that's only one

619
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:32,640
reason.
The other reason it would have

620
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,280
been really difficult to build
in the cold Central European

621
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:44,200
climate a single family passive
house in 1990, because all we,

622
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,120
we, we, we needed the 40
centimeters of insulation.

623
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:52,800
We needed the the thick extra
insulation of window frame.

624
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:59,640
We needed the the preheating of
the air by earth buried tubes or

625
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:05,080
things which not you you now
don't find in a new passive

626
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,560
houses because all the
components have become even

627
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:15,200
better than than they have been
for research project and and now

628
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,960
you can build single family
passive houses near the Arctic

629
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,520
Circle.
Not not problem with it's always

630
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:24,600
done.
Yeah, so, so, so which is what

631
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,360
is progress and, and and the
technological progress is, is

632
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:36,280
much faster when I have
anticipated, but it was also

633
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:41,200
much less revolutionary.
Yeah, it's, it's the same

634
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:46,600
concepts being improved and we
are getting better and better

635
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,360
using these principles.
Brilliant.

636
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,920
So talking about building a
place of house in Antarctica,

637
00:42:56,640 --> 00:43:00,400
there's often, you know, the are
we often hear that Passivhaus is

638
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,240
not a standard that we need in
Australia.

639
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,480
It's designed for Germany where
it snows and you know, all the

640
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,360
really cold climates.
What is your response to that?

641
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:16,040
Let let's say when we started
these first examples 1990 in our

642
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,880
region, yeah, most peers, even
the peers in building industry,

643
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:25,200
they called it too hard, too
Swedish, not needed in Central

644
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,760
European climates.
That doesn't sound familiar.

645
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:34,960
Even you guys, come on, come on,
Building physics works the same

646
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:40,560
whether it's in Australia or in
Canada or in Hong Kong and.

647
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:42,040
That's the end of the story,
people.

648
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,360
That's it.
No further discussion needed.

649
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:46,200
Exactly.
Then stop.

650
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,800
It and also we also the human
body.

651
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:52,680
Yeah, we are.
We are one species.

652
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,680
This is very interesting also
from the, from the formal

653
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,800
comfort aspect.
That was research that was done

654
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:07,320
by, we call like olef hunger in,
in the early 60s.

655
00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:10,560
Yeah.
And, and, and he looked into

656
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,480
what, what is it?
Why, why do we feel comfortable?

657
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:19,240
And he has done a lot of
experiments to look into that.

658
00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:23,680
And he came up with a theory of
former comfort, and it's

659
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:25,480
working.
And the surprising thing is that

660
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:30,520
it's the same for all human
beings.

661
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:32,840
It's not.
It's not different.

662
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,760
Yeah.
Wherever you are in a, A, a

663
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:41,440
white, a, a, a person of color,
wherever you are, male or

664
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,840
female, even the sick react the
same way.

665
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:52,640
Yeah, only very few people with,
with very complicated disorders

666
00:44:52,720 --> 00:44:58,480
might have our experiences here.
But I mean, 9.9% of of people,

667
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,920
it's, it's the same genes.
It's the same.

668
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:02,960
Some husbands and wives might
disagree.

669
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:04,600
With you, with that female
comfort issue.

670
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:11,280
There's no one else back to bed
that is that is if you want to

671
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,120
keep peace.
It's also important to know this

672
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:20,840
is 1 species, There's no there
are no big differences and and

673
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:28,040
the goat enter the bed it's.
OK, excellent.

674
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,320
Well.
I hope that that puts that one

675
00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,880
to bed.
Well, it.

676
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:34,840
It it never does.
It never does.

677
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,600
It it sometimes.
Which is a fun discussion.

678
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:42,560
Yeah.
You, you can talk about that all

679
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:43,440
day long.
Yeah.

680
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,440
Clear.
So we, we what's what's

681
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:50,800
necessary is you do it.
It's, it's you don't.

682
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,400
You don't only talk about your
things.

683
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,280
It's interesting.
You can talk about it, but you

684
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,920
just do it.
And when you experience what's

685
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:01,480
going on and then you see.
Yeah, which is working.

686
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:07,400
Yeah, that works.
Some people joke that Passive

687
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,960
House is like a.
Cult, there's a perception that

688
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:14,000
followers can be a bit one eyed
and there's there can be quite a

689
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,360
strong emotional reaction to
this standard either way, either

690
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,360
for or against.
Why do you think that this

691
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:22,520
building standard inspires such
a response?

692
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:27,320
And do you think, do you see
that as a strength or a barrier?

693
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:31,840
Well, let me come.
With something completely

694
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,120
different.
That is when Albert Einstein

695
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:39,960
when he presented the theory of
relativity that aroused strong

696
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:43,240
emotions even in the scientific
community.

697
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,320
Some even called it Jewish
physics.

698
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:50,920
Remember back that was a was a
very a very, very dangerous

699
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,280
time.
But others, others were

700
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:55,280
thrilled.
They, they realized that this

701
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:59,000
solved one of the biggest
problems of physics at that

702
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,080
time.
So there's nothing which is

703
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:09,040
special for any, any innovation
anywhere.

704
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,880
And let's also be honest,
Passive House isn't such a big

705
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:16,080
innovation.
It's still a building.

706
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,080
It still has roofs, windows,
walls.

707
00:47:19,720 --> 00:47:21,640
Yeah.
It's, it's not, you know,

708
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,440
reinventing a wheel.
No, it's not.

709
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,800
It's not reinventing a wheel,
sorry.

710
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:31,360
Now on the other side, I'm a
scientist and we scientists have

711
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,280
to be critical.
And being critical, that means

712
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:39,200
being self critical.
This is something now, now is

713
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:42,760
also has a big misunderstanding
that saying we, we are critical,

714
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,040
we we just criticize everybody
else.

715
00:47:46,240 --> 00:47:50,160
No critical means you have to be
self critical there.

716
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:55,160
So Cortez once said, I know, but
I do not know.

717
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,520
And we nowadays we have to
recognize that by large that is

718
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,960
still true today.
We don't know much.

719
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:06,920
We have learned a great deal and
we are on way to learning even

720
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,120
more.
And I I quote Barack Obama now

721
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,160
here that is he says, yes, we
can.

722
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:18,760
Yeah, we can learn these things.
And but now not everybody enjoys

723
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,080
that debate.
Yeah.

724
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:27,360
And, and when you look into some
of the critics, they are just

725
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:32,480
backwards oriented, yeah.
They just want to have a world

726
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:36,600
back like it was in the 1800s or
whatever.

727
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:42,240
However, of of of of of a course
of the development, I have

728
00:48:42,240 --> 00:48:46,480
witnessed on several occasions,
but that those who initially

729
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:51,880
resisted to such innovations,
they later made extensive use of

730
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:56,240
the research findings and son of
and even contributed with their

731
00:48:56,240 --> 00:49:01,280
own projects.
So I'm, I'm, I'm not criticizing

732
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,680
the critics.
We, we, we, we, we can learn.

733
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:08,560
We invite one to to learn.
Yeah.

734
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,960
And it only needs.
Absolutely, absolutely.

735
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:14,720
Is is that way of interactive?
Discussion.

736
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,440
Yeah, this is very creative and
and this is a way to make

737
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,160
progress.
Yeah, I think it's just about

738
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:23,760
staying.
Curious and asking questions

739
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,920
and, and continuing to learn.
And they can certainly be a bit

740
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:29,920
of a fixed mindset among some
people.

741
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:35,760
And they're like, they don't
like, they like to keep things

742
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:37,440
the way that they know and
understand.

743
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:41,640
And I get that, but I think
sometimes hard.

744
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:46,120
Yeah, sometimes, yeah.
That you can do things in in

745
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,520
another way.
It's it's sometimes hard.

746
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,840
We have to understand.
You see, when I introduced when

747
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,160
when the first idea came up with
Bo Adams and he said let's build

748
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,760
passive houses in Central
Europe, my idea was he's gone

749
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:58,520
insane.
Yeah.

750
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,920
So so.
So I I can't understand that,

751
00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:08,120
but that that doesn't mean that
you don't have to try.

752
00:50:08,200 --> 00:50:15,920
Yeah, you try.
So curious and I think that

753
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:18,920
leads on quite segues quite
nicely into my next question

754
00:50:19,240 --> 00:50:21,840
because you, you have said
before that the building

755
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,000
industry was this change not
because of science, but because

756
00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:26,560
of habit.
And for our listeners, whether

757
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,040
they build as designers,
architects or homeowners, what

758
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,160
do you think is the most
effective way to challenge those

759
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:36,840
habits or fixed mindsets and,
and, and fear of, of something

760
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:38,880
new and different and some also
of cost.

761
00:50:39,720 --> 00:50:41,200
What is the?
What do you think the best way

762
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:45,560
is to kind of start to shift
that now?

763
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:50,480
Energy efficient construction.
Nowadays it's no no longer just

764
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,320
theory.
Yeah, that has changed

765
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:56,440
dramatically since the 1990s.
When we built the 1st house,

766
00:50:56,440 --> 00:51:01,280
there was no example.
Yeah, but now there are

767
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,760
thousands of built and occupied
examples.

768
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,120
I was impressed by the number of
projects which were presented by

769
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,400
the Australian Passive House
Association.

770
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,880
Yeah, already existing in
Australia.

771
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:16,840
So therefore, what what I
recommend is the first step is

772
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:21,760
to visit an existing house, see
it with your own eyes.

773
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,320
Yeah.
Feel the comfort, smell the air,

774
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,520
talk to the residents.
It's too easy.

775
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,000
We, we, we open days of a
passivost coming up.

776
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:30,840
Right?
Right now.

777
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:33,080
Yeah, it is actually in a few
weeks, couple of weeks.

778
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,440
You can do that, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, where we've the company I

779
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,640
work for.
Has a certified Passivhaus and

780
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,360
we're opening it up so fine,
Yeah, Good.

781
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:46,560
Good to see visit this is.
It's my very first step and this

782
00:51:46,560 --> 00:51:48,480
is important.
This is what I have learned.

783
00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:52,480
It is something like also as a
now again, come back to the math

784
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:53,760
teacher part.
Yeah.

785
00:51:54,200 --> 00:52:01,280
And if you if you teach math
only in a abstract way, I I

786
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,920
realize why people resist to
that.

787
00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:07,440
Yeah, it's not you.
You don't get the feeling, you

788
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:12,360
don't see what it's good for.
Yeah, but you can implement it

789
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,080
in your daily life.
You can understand where you can

790
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:19,000
use it for.
And This is why this visit in an

791
00:52:19,000 --> 00:52:22,800
existing passing house is
passive house is so important.

792
00:52:23,720 --> 00:52:26,880
You can see this is not
something abstract, it's

793
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,920
something really concrete and
achievable.

794
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:37,000
And you see because.
It's it's there you can talk to

795
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:38,040
those who.
Are.

796
00:52:38,200 --> 00:52:41,120
Residents there and you can talk
to boys who have built it and

797
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:45,240
those who decided, Yeah.
And then next step is there are

798
00:52:45,240 --> 00:52:50,640
established training courses for
builders and planners and let's

799
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:56,400
say a globally standardized
educational concepts designed to

800
00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:00,200
to qualify all the participants
so they can plan and build their

801
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:05,440
own projects.
It's something you can do, which

802
00:53:05,440 --> 00:53:07,840
is very interesting.
It's it's not something you have

803
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,680
to buy.
It's something you can do.

804
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:13,960
Yeah, interesting.
That's an interesting concept

805
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,880
that is actually you can
actually be part.

806
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,400
Of it, yeah, yeah, you can be
part of it, the creative.

807
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:25,960
Process and and it's also AI
think we should we should start

808
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:31,600
to think about other parts of
our economy, other parts of our

809
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:35,280
of our industry to to think
about.

810
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:40,000
There are also things that we
can that that we can contribute.

811
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:45,600
Yeah, that that is not only done
just by some authority, which

812
00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:49,200
tells you how, how, how to do,
but to to gain your own

813
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:50,960
experience and to learn about
it.

814
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,400
Now building material
manufacturers, what, what can we

815
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:57,920
do?
We can study the criteria for

816
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:01,280
their specific components to
make them suitable for Passive

817
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:06,200
House and, and that they might
contact some peers or the

818
00:54:06,200 --> 00:54:10,040
Passive House Institute directly
and the the scientists and the

819
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:14,960
engineers where they are happy
to assist in, in, in development

820
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,880
of these improvements.
And that's similar to the air

821
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,640
harnessing.
This is once you once you

822
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:26,440
learned it, once you did it
once, you will see it's not that

823
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,240
not, not that that big an
effort.

824
00:54:29,240 --> 00:54:33,400
It's not that difficult to do.
This is what you what you can,

825
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,080
what you can learn.
I think the biggest thing that

826
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:37,480
Australians struggle with is
the.

827
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,960
The the fitting fitting a
certified Passivhaus into their

828
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:49,080
budget because they they perhaps
prioritise things.

829
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:51,800
That aren't.
Related to the performance of

830
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,320
the building.
So all they need to do, the

831
00:54:55,320 --> 00:54:58,480
simplest way to fit a passive
house into your budget is just

832
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:00,080
to make the house a little bit
smaller.

833
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:03,320
And that is a bit of a shift for
a lot of people that they can't,

834
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:09,320
they don't really want to make
their houses smaller because

835
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:14,720
they want, they want the dream.
But yeah, it's, it's, it's a

836
00:55:14,720 --> 00:55:17,680
very achievable on most, most
budgets that people have got to

837
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,280
build a house with these days.
There's just has to be some you,

838
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:22,880
you have to work around.
You have to work with what

839
00:55:22,880 --> 00:55:25,720
you've got.
Let me a bit even more.

840
00:55:25,720 --> 00:55:30,320
Provocative, that is.
Why do passive houses have to be

841
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:34,800
more expensive?
We don't.

842
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:39,960
We have examples now.
We have examples in Europe, but

843
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:44,320
also in America right now of
passive houses in affordable

844
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,080
housing, in social housing
complex.

845
00:55:48,640 --> 00:55:52,640
Yeah, we, we, we've done a lot
more expensive than the ordinary

846
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:53,400
build.
Yeah.

847
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:56,800
So, well, I don't say that this
is always the case and

848
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,920
especially most a lot if you do
it for first time.

849
00:55:59,920 --> 00:56:04,000
Yeah, but but but there is no
reason why it has to be so

850
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,840
expensive.
That's a that's another part of

851
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:08,920
it.
It's also one of the goals that

852
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,600
we have and how, how, how do we
achieve that?

853
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:16,000
Well, we are in a market
economy, but what you need is

854
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,720
some competition.
That's how it works you.

855
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:23,120
Need some competition?
There's not only one producer,

856
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:25,360
it's not only one way to do
that.

857
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:29,080
Many, many ways to do it.
Well, hopefully as time goes on

858
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:30,400
we'll start to get a little bit
more.

859
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:34,400
Competition in the market and
and prices will come down and

860
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:38,720
already now to be.
To be if you if you if you don't

861
00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:43,760
look for the most expensive ways
to do it it's not that much more

862
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:47,240
expensive now yeah.
And that, that there is of

863
00:56:47,240 --> 00:56:52,800
course, there, there can be some
amount of extra investment

864
00:56:52,800 --> 00:56:55,760
costs.
It's it's an investment because

865
00:56:55,800 --> 00:57:00,000
you save a lot of money.
Yeah, it, it will be running 40

866
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:06,120
years, 50 years, 80 years, even
longer on on, on half of the

867
00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:10,880
operation costs at least than in
an ordinary building.

868
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,040
And if you calculate that back
in the right way, you'll see a

869
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:17,920
passive house already.
Now it's it's it's even less

870
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:22,000
expensive on on a life cycle
cost approach.

871
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:26,640
Now I I know people do not like
to have a life cycle cost

872
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:31,840
approach.
Now I'm 71 years old, I know how

873
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:34,520
how short a human's life cycle
is.

874
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:41,600
Yeah.
So even the very first passive

875
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:47,400
house, it wasn't a cheap thing.
Yeah, it was financed by the

876
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:52,360
private investment.
There was a range of 18%

877
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,400
additional costs we had to
spend.

878
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,040
That is completely paid back
right now.

879
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:02,400
Yeah, already, yeah, it's
already more than paid back.

880
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:06,320
And and this is not counting for
now, just to give you one

881
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:14,920
example with four family multi
family home, it was heated by a

882
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:21,240
a dashboard gas burner and that
and that burner central central

883
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:28,720
system that that was operating
for 34 years right now normally

884
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:30,840
the same heater, the same
heater, but.

885
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:35,240
Normally these things last.
For 17 years or 20 years or or

886
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:40,240
whatever this this thing lasted
for 34 years.

887
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,280
And that was because it was
reduced in the power it needed

888
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,760
to provide.
So it, it, it, it, it didn't,

889
00:58:48,840 --> 00:58:50,720
wasn't working so hard.
Yeah.

890
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:52,560
And and.
Now and.

891
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:56,120
Now we replace it.
We replace it by a heat pump.

892
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:02,440
This is 1 heat pump.
It has the size the smallest

893
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:08,560
size available for single family
homes, but this is a four unit

894
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:13,040
building for four different 4
separate families.

895
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,120
Yeah, for for four families,
one.

896
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:19,920
Heat pump, which normally is
used for just a single family

897
00:59:19,920 --> 00:59:23,800
home, but already, no, it's not
a quarter of a course, but it's

898
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:30,280
around half of of of a course.
Adding in that this is now 34

899
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:35,360
years later, even from that
point of view it has been much

900
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:41,320
less expensive to live in these
buildings and and to to have

901
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:44,760
them working all the time.
There has been no repair

902
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:52,360
anywhere on any of the of the of
the window frames that the the

903
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:58,920
formal envelope, the roof, the
air tightness and and so on.

904
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:03,400
This is all working like it was
34 years ago.

905
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:06,120
That's amazing.
It it.

906
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:08,320
Might it might be surprising.
But and and this.

907
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:12,120
Is for the first prototype.
This is not the the standard

908
01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:15,640
sized product of a big company.
Yeah, it's not, it's not the

909
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:23,200
it's not the Mercedes.
Yeah, it's a, a, a built by, by

910
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:28,160
handicraft work on site and it
it's working well.

911
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,320
Yes, we have looked into the
building physics and that's

912
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:34,360
again proving that that physics
works.

913
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:40,960
Let's let's, let's, let's remain
the main thing Physics works

914
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:45,960
and, and it's, it's sometimes a
little bit strange to have all

915
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:50,240
these discussions about what,
what people think that physics

916
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,720
doesn't work.
I I don't understand that.

917
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:58,600
It's it's, it's so clear, you
know, physics always, always

918
01:00:58,600 --> 01:01:01,720
works.
Yeah, yeah, I guess it's just.

919
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:04,200
Especially in the current
climate with, with construction

920
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:09,120
costs escalating so quickly over
the last, you know, 3-4, five

921
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:13,200
years since COVID, it's even
more difficult for people to get

922
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:18,920
their heads around.
But I think if if we can.

923
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,400
If we can just.
Get the message out there that

924
01:01:23,720 --> 01:01:28,280
as you said, the physics works
and a house is expensive anyway.

925
01:01:28,360 --> 01:01:35,200
And the the the costs that you
save in in not only running

926
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:41,800
costs, but also the repair costs
is is going to outweigh what you

927
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:43,800
what you spend at the very at
the upfront.

928
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:46,880
Add in the trouble.
Add in the trouble.

929
01:01:46,880 --> 01:01:50,320
If you have a leaky roof, what
what kind of trouble is that?

930
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:52,840
It's not just because of a
repair.

931
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,840
Yeah.
It's also it's, it's, it's, it's

932
01:01:56,280 --> 01:02:00,040
the the lack of, of quality of
life.

933
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:04,200
Yeah, yeah.
Absolutely.

934
01:02:04,440 --> 01:02:06,720
So what?
Do you think the biggest

935
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,160
misconceptions about air
tightness in and indoor air

936
01:02:09,160 --> 01:02:12,120
quality are that you still come
across you've mentioned in the

937
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:16,520
past that a building should work
like a thermos flask or you know

938
01:02:16,520 --> 01:02:20,160
in in Australia we have Eskies
which we put all about BBQ

939
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:21,760
meeting when we go out to have a
BBQ.

940
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:26,600
So but these.
Things are airtight, and highly.

941
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:29,680
Insulated, but they don't have
people in them and there's no

942
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:32,960
cooking inside them.
So what do you what what's

943
01:02:32,960 --> 01:02:34,880
what's your comment about
airtightness and indoor air

944
01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:37,120
quality and the misconceptions
in Passivhaus?

945
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:41,720
The only thing with a?
Passive House did yeah, that the

946
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:47,560
analogy only serves to explain
how one part of of the building

947
01:02:47,680 --> 01:02:51,200
and that's the most important
part that is the heat flow out

948
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:55,760
of the building, how that can be
reduced, namely by flow of heat

949
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,160
conduction.
This is where where we

950
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:04,120
comparison the analogy to the
farmers flask comes in.

951
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:07,760
But it's not that that building
itself.

952
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:12,160
Let's put it another way.
Passive houses breathe.

953
01:03:13,960 --> 01:03:16,480
This is what we.
What we exactly do in the?

954
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:22,240
In the best possible analogy of
briefing of say a camel, the

955
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:23,960
camel that's it's an interesting
animal.

956
01:03:24,760 --> 01:03:29,960
The camel has the highest known
heat and moisture recovery

957
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:34,920
system in its nose.
We, these animals may recover

958
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:39,040
more than 80% of your immunity.
We, we, we don't do it if with

959
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:43,040
the best ERDS.
Yeah, this is financial concept.

960
01:03:43,040 --> 01:03:44,320
Yeah.
And, and, and.

961
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:47,200
No, no, that's the analogy for
another part.

962
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,800
The next important part of the
heat flow, that is convective

963
01:03:50,800 --> 01:03:54,680
flow.
So we also can reduce that

964
01:03:54,680 --> 01:03:57,480
convective flow.
And then there's indoor air

965
01:03:57,480 --> 01:04:01,320
quality, best possible indoor
air quality, that's a criterion

966
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,680
for passive house.
And in all climates this can be

967
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:10,720
achieved by a briefing system
and engineers call it a fresh

968
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:15,000
air ventilation system.
That's that's the way buildings

969
01:04:15,240 --> 01:04:21,200
brief they, they breathe through
the ventilation system, they

970
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:23,720
don't breathe through the
envelope.

971
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:31,880
So as we, of course, we, we
breathe also to our skin, but,

972
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:36,280
but that's a very small part of,
of, of breathing process.

973
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:41,680
It's less than 41% or whatever.
So if you stop breathing, you

974
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:45,120
have a problem.
You can't breathe only through

975
01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:47,200
your skin.
And and that's the same thing

976
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:49,800
with, with, with a building.
Yeah.

977
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:55,480
So now this is also, again,
it's, it's an abstract, somehow

978
01:04:55,480 --> 01:04:58,120
abstract discussion.
And This is why I come up with

979
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:01,240
the analogy with, with the camel
and, and, and, and with these

980
01:05:01,240 --> 01:05:04,320
things because people want to
understand what's going on here.

981
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:07,280
And it's it's correct.
We we want to understand that.

982
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:11,840
But again, the most important
thing here is practical

983
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:15,920
experience, right?
Go to the passive House, go

984
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:21,880
inside it, smell the air, talk
to be occupants and you and and

985
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:24,560
then you'll you'll see how it's
working.

986
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,680
Some say critics that some
critics say that passive.

987
01:05:27,680 --> 01:05:30,520
House locks us into a
technological mindset,

988
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:35,440
ventilation systems and heating
and calling demand and lots of

989
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:39,760
technical speak when what we
really need is simplicity and

990
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:43,000
adaptability.
Are they right?

991
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:45,800
And I guess this goes back to
the Passive House principles

992
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:50,000
discussion as well.
You know, how can we, how can we

993
01:05:50,000 --> 01:05:51,920
simplify?
Or do we need to?

994
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:56,760
Simplify it.
Might be surprisingly passive

995
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:01,240
houses.
Are the simple solution if if if

996
01:06:01,240 --> 01:06:02,720
you think.
About it when?

997
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,920
You understand how sometimes?
Sometimes people.

998
01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:13,120
Think things are difficult or
complicated just if they are not

999
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:16,800
used to it?
Yeah, and but but the simple

1000
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:20,480
solution is understand how a
building works.

1001
01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:24,080
There's no way around it.
We want to understand that and

1002
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:28,480
and now use the fundamentals of
physics to ensure it it it

1003
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:32,720
functions properly and
insulation isn't rocket science.

1004
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:39,400
So now if we reduce the power
needed to to run the technical

1005
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:46,600
system, this is what exactly
what we do when the technology

1006
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:53,000
is simplified.
Yeah, ordinary buildings.

1007
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:57,720
What is we ordinary buildings?
These systems used in ordinary

1008
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:03,640
buildings, they are Tripoli 20
kilowatt rocket burner powered

1009
01:07:03,640 --> 01:07:08,560
systems that consume tons of oil
annually and convert it into

1010
01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:11,920
CO2.
That was a happy simple

1011
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:15,680
building.
This is not simple.

1012
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:21,400
It's interesting thing.
The the concept, especially my

1013
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:29,200
friend Bo Adamson came out was
to to to come to a simple

1014
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:33,800
solution and and and it is a
simple solution.

1015
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:38,480
Now if if there are there are
some things which which very

1016
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:45,040
often modern buildings still do
not have like a proper fresh air

1017
01:07:45,240 --> 01:07:50,000
ventilation system, but if you.
Look into the.

1018
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:55,040
Signs of a people who are really
looking into indoor air quality.

1019
01:07:55,800 --> 01:08:01,720
There is no doubt at all that we
need that, not not to save

1020
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:07,520
energy, but to have better
indoor air conditions in the

1021
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:10,120
buildings.
That is and and, and, and it's a

1022
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:14,440
simple way to do it.
Now if if you are not used to

1023
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:20,560
it, if you see it for the first
time and if it's if it's not

1024
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:26,720
well designed, you, you might
you might think it's a

1025
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:30,399
complicated technology.
It's not.

1026
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:35,680
Every washing machine is more
complicated than a for all

1027
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:38,240
regulations.
You know what?

1028
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:40,399
The settings of my washing.
Machine are really complicated.

1029
01:08:42,359 --> 01:08:45,080
Try to.
Repair your washing machine?

1030
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,680
Yeah, but but that might be
surprising.

1031
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:52,800
You can actually repair your
ventilation system.

1032
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:55,960
This is not.
Difficult.

1033
01:08:56,399 --> 01:08:59,040
Yeah, Yeah, you.
Can it's not that difficult.

1034
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:03,800
You you can't damage too much
things where Yeah, but like gas

1035
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:06,200
burner, try to repair your gas
burner.

1036
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:09,120
I wouldn't recommend.
It's dangerous.

1037
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:17,319
Yeah, these things can explode.
There's nothing to explode in a

1038
01:09:17,319 --> 01:09:18,800
ventilation system.
Not at all.

1039
01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,120
You, you, you, you can change
the ventilators.

1040
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:24,240
It's a the the the modern
passive power ventilation system

1041
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:28,680
has a a ventilator, which is
commonly in every in every

1042
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:34,000
modern PC in every modern
personal computer, the same or

1043
01:09:34,000 --> 01:09:36,760
ventilators.
Yeah, easy thing.

1044
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:39,399
Fan system.
Yeah, the same.

1045
01:09:39,399 --> 01:09:41,920
Yeah.
Yeah, It's, it's, it's it's

1046
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:43,160
it's.
Exactly the same.

1047
01:09:43,800 --> 01:09:47,040
The same ventilators and they
have become much more efficient

1048
01:09:47,640 --> 01:09:56,160
since we and then we introduced
the the first air heat recovery

1049
01:09:56,160 --> 01:09:58,600
system.
In first passive hours there was

1050
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:03,280
only one product all around the
the world available.

1051
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:09,160
It was even near to be to be
useful for the purpose.

1052
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:13,680
It was produced by a Danish
factory and it was the only one

1053
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:15,800
which has existed since 20
years.

1054
01:10:16,040 --> 01:10:20,480
But it came with a ventilator
using 100 watts of electricity.

1055
01:10:23,080 --> 01:10:26,240
And that that makes no sense.
It's, it's, it's too loud and

1056
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:29,920
it's too high consumption.
So first thing we did in our

1057
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:34,320
laboratory, we exchanged these
ventilators to then available

1058
01:10:34,800 --> 01:10:41,080
electronic communicated systems.
These are now commonly used

1059
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:43,760
everywhere.
So, so nowadays you have 8 Watt,

1060
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:46,360
10 Watt ventilators in these
systems.

1061
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:51,880
Simple thing thing to exchange
it's it's also not high voltage

1062
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:57,840
running on 18 volts, 24 volts or
or whatsoever.

1063
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:04,600
This is a simple technology.
I think it's everything.

1064
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:08,960
'S everything's easy when you
know how, so the theme of this.

1065
01:11:08,960 --> 01:11:13,000
Conversation is to just.
I'm I'm not sure, keep asking

1066
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:15,080
questions.
For example, going to the.

1067
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:17,560
Moon.
Isn't simple, even if you have

1068
01:11:17,560 --> 01:11:23,840
to know how true.
Touché so so there's a

1069
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:27,600
difference.
It's completely clear that is a

1070
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:31,880
difference, but but we you have
you.

1071
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,360
You can build your own heat
recovery ventilation system if

1072
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:39,320
you take the time to do so.
Is it?

1073
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:41,600
It's not.
It's not rocket science.

1074
01:11:41,600 --> 01:11:45,720
It's a very, and we have seen
it, some people, they, they say,

1075
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:50,640
oh, I don't want to, to, to use
electricity to consume

1076
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:55,920
electricity to run the system.
I want it to be working with the

1077
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:59,520
natural forces.
And we even have some example

1078
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:02,760
passive houses in France where
they have done that.

1079
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:07,520
It's possible, possible to do.
Well, they have they have air

1080
01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:14,920
channels which are half a meter
in diameter to to even reduce

1081
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:17,680
the resistance of flow even
more.

1082
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:23,640
It's possible to do, yeah.
And I would say well, but what

1083
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:28,480
what is a 10 Watt ventilator?
Add it to the system.

1084
01:12:29,040 --> 01:12:33,000
Add another half a square meter
of photovoltaics on your roof

1085
01:12:33,720 --> 01:12:37,240
and it's run completely by free
electricity.

1086
01:12:40,440 --> 01:12:42,920
This is just another pragmatic,
yeah.

1087
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:47,400
It's a pragmatic part of
approach to see that this, this

1088
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:51,680
is simple technology and of
course you, you can make it.

1089
01:12:52,480 --> 01:12:54,480
We're better and better and more
sophisticated.

1090
01:12:54,480 --> 01:12:57,400
And that's what we industry
production is all about.

1091
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:00,000
And they have made a lot of
progress.

1092
01:13:00,000 --> 01:13:02,840
Yes, you can improve the control
system nowadays.

1093
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:03,800
That's another thing.
Yeah.

1094
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:11,520
So now every every mobile phone
has more calculation capacity

1095
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:15,880
nowadays.
When I had running these 10

1096
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:22,680
thousands of simulations in
1987, it's it's all there, it's

1097
01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:25,720
all available.
It's a question to make it

1098
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:29,960
approachable for the ordinary
person.

1099
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:33,600
This is what is somehow also.
Behind the the the.

1100
01:13:33,640 --> 01:13:36,840
Passive House idea, Yeah, to
make it, to make it

1101
01:13:37,440 --> 01:13:40,000
approachable.
It's it's not something it's

1102
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:46,400
just designed by some clever
engineer way away from from your

1103
01:13:46,400 --> 01:13:49,680
own property.
It can be done.

1104
01:13:50,040 --> 01:13:52,400
You can loan it if if you want
to.

1105
01:13:53,080 --> 01:13:56,320
You don't need to.
You can, you can, you can use

1106
01:13:56,320 --> 01:14:00,280
the expertise of all the people
around you, but in principle you

1107
01:14:00,280 --> 01:14:01,720
can do it.
We've got a couple more

1108
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:05,760
questions.
The If a if a builder car or a

1109
01:14:05,760 --> 01:14:09,000
homeowner can't achieve full set
of full certification, passive

1110
01:14:09,000 --> 01:14:11,480
pass certification, what should
they prioritise?

1111
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:19,000
Yeah, USBPHPPU.
SB Passive House design package.

1112
01:14:19,440 --> 01:14:22,560
Use it anyway you use it anyway.
Yeah, yeah.

1113
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:26,440
To calculate the energy balance
or have somebody relating it,

1114
01:14:26,440 --> 01:14:28,800
yeah, you can use design pH for
example.

1115
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:31,840
It's a very easy tool.
You have to use also something

1116
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:35,080
you learn on on your own.
It's not not, not so difficult

1117
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:38,720
to do and and then you can
optimise your construction as

1118
01:14:38,720 --> 01:14:43,040
far as you want to go.
Of course you you can do that.

1119
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:49,640
And there is a reason why the
criteria have been chosen the

1120
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:56,080
way they are.
So it's worth to come as near as

1121
01:14:56,080 --> 01:14:59,400
possible to the actual standard,
which is not.

1122
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:04,680
It's not but, but that is not
where to to to create a

1123
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:08,760
challenge.
It's it's it's rare because it

1124
01:15:08,760 --> 01:15:12,080
is the most recommendable way to
go.

1125
01:15:13,920 --> 01:15:16,200
You see pacifiers.
Is not a 0.

1126
01:15:16,200 --> 01:15:22,680
Energy building and we and, and
we do not need 0 energy because

1127
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:26,640
you can produce energy with your
follow voltaic system and, and

1128
01:15:26,640 --> 01:15:32,240
there is a grid of electricity
that that is available almost

1129
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:36,040
everywhere on, on the planet.
And, and, and where this is not

1130
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:39,360
available, you can build
autonomous homes.

1131
01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:42,400
Yes, you can.
And the best way to do it is to

1132
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,640
build a passive house, do it a
little bit better and add, add

1133
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:47,360
some more for the volatile
systems.

1134
01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:51,640
Yes, so, so, so that's, so at
the end, that's it.

1135
01:15:51,640 --> 01:15:56,840
And if you if you do not come to
a full standard in in first

1136
01:15:56,840 --> 01:16:03,840
place, well, hard for me to
think about what you should,

1137
01:16:04,080 --> 01:16:09,640
what what you can, what, what
what what's the thing you.

1138
01:16:09,720 --> 01:16:13,520
You need released.
Yeah, it's time to pick it

1139
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:15,440
apart, isn't it?
The thing about we're.

1140
01:16:15,440 --> 01:16:20,680
Going to be adding some costs.
Is the ventilation system, but I

1141
01:16:20,680 --> 01:16:24,600
wouldn't recommend to build any
new residential building

1142
01:16:24,600 --> 01:16:26,560
nowadays without a ventilation
system.

1143
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:29,360
I think that's probably the
first thing that people give.

1144
01:16:29,360 --> 01:16:31,680
Away in Australia.
This ventilation system.

1145
01:16:32,880 --> 01:16:37,720
See the ventilation system.
Is almost the only part which

1146
01:16:38,400 --> 01:16:43,280
which adds some extra costs from
what your ordinary do.

1147
01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:49,760
But I wouldn't recommend to
build any new residential

1148
01:16:49,760 --> 01:16:54,760
building nowadays without a
ventilation system, because we

1149
01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:56,760
should figure need for inner air
quality.

1150
01:16:56,800 --> 01:16:59,360
It's, it's, it's, it's not about
energy efficiency.

1151
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:03,720
It's it, it's just providing
healthy indoor climate.

1152
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:08,000
That's what a ventilation system
is used for.

1153
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:10,600
Yes, yes.
So yes.

1154
01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:12,360
And that is where we are coming
to in.

1155
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:14,240
Australia we are.
Coming to that point where it's

1156
01:17:14,240 --> 01:17:17,520
not just about we always talk
about what air changes do you

1157
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:20,480
need to start introducing
mechanical ventilation and the

1158
01:17:20,480 --> 01:17:24,400
response is becoming more and
more, well, there is no air

1159
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:26,080
changes per hour that you,
there's a cut off.

1160
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:30,160
There's no magical number we
need to ventilate regardless,

1161
01:17:31,280 --> 01:17:33,880
yeah.
All right, Wolfgang, I've got.

1162
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:34,720
May I?
Call you that.

1163
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:38,560
May I call you Wolfgang?
Of course A.

1164
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:42,840
Final question, what is?
The one thing out of everything

1165
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:45,480
you have learned in your career
that you want the listener to

1166
01:17:45,480 --> 01:17:47,040
know.
If you had to pick one thing.

1167
01:17:49,880 --> 01:17:55,000
Remember, we, we built and
renovate for humans, not

1168
01:17:55,000 --> 01:17:58,520
exclusively for investors.
Yeah.

1169
01:17:59,080 --> 01:18:03,320
So, so there is a responsibility
for every designer, planner,

1170
01:18:03,360 --> 01:18:07,640
construction engineer and, and,
and and worker and that is

1171
01:18:07,760 --> 01:18:12,360
design the buildings to be
healthy, to be comfortable, easy

1172
01:18:12,360 --> 01:18:15,920
to use and affordable for the
occupants.

1173
01:18:16,720 --> 01:18:18,760
That's very good holistic advice
and it's.

1174
01:18:18,760 --> 01:18:24,240
Not difficult and I.
Hope we have contributed to make

1175
01:18:24,280 --> 01:18:28,360
it less difficult.
This is which is what what it's

1176
01:18:28,360 --> 01:18:29,880
all about.
Thank you very much Wolfgang.

1177
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:32,520
It has been an honour.
And a pleasure to talk to you

1178
01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:34,640
tonight.
Well, this morning where you are

1179
01:18:34,640 --> 01:18:36,520
in, in, in your ability, you're
in Darmstadt.

1180
01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:39,520
Did you say exactly.
All right.

1181
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:41,160
Thank you very much.
Thank you.

1182
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:42,640
Thank you.
Hi.

1183
01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:47,680
That is all for today.
Thanks so much for tuning.

1184
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:50,040
In there will be another episode
on a fortnight.

1185
01:18:50,040 --> 01:18:52,680
So if you would like to listen
in to the types of conversations

1186
01:18:52,680 --> 01:18:55,440
that I have all the time, please
subscribe on your chosen

1187
01:18:55,440 --> 01:18:57,800
platform.
Write the show, leave a comment,

1188
01:18:57,800 --> 01:18:59,920
whatever you like, share with
your friends and family.

1189
01:19:00,160 --> 01:19:02,760
I'd love for you to spread the
word about the building serology

1190
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:04,960
potty.
There's a link in the episode

1191
01:19:04,960 --> 01:19:07,720
description where you can head
to a landing page and there are

1192
01:19:07,720 --> 01:19:10,200
some show notes there with
relevant links and a full

1193
01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:13,560
transcript of the show as well,
and also links to my socials.

1194
01:19:13,840 --> 01:19:16,080
So if you're not already, I'd
love for you to follow along

1195
01:19:16,080 --> 01:19:18,680
there too as I share lots of
building science and building

1196
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:20,720
biology tips.
Thanks again.

1197
01:19:20,720 --> 01:19:23,680
I'll be back in two weeks, so
until then, happy healthy

1198
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:24,080
building.