#21 - Building for Durability: Lessons from Matt Risinger

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Hello and welcome to the
Building Soyology body, where we

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talk about better buildings to
live and breathe in.

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Today I'm joined by Matt
Risinger, one of the most

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recognizable names in high
performance building.

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Matt is the founder and CEO of
Rising a Build and the force

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behind the Build Show network,
where he's built a global

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audience by sharing building
science, craftsmanship and the

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lessons he's learned in the
field.

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Known for his openness about
mistakes, his curiosity about

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products and methods, and his
ability to make complex topics

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engaging, Matt has become a
reference point for builders

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around the world.
Recently he spent some time in

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Australia connecting with our
builders, seeing our products

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and practices first hand, and I
have invited Matt here to chat

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about all of this and more.
So welcome to the show, Matt.

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Wow, just what a nice intro.
Thank you so much.

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I'm gonna I'm gonna steal some
of those lines.

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That was.
I try to get my intros right.

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Oh.
That was really good.

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Yeah, I'm very kind.
I love it.

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Thank you.
Very much awesome.

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Awesome.
So I'm looking forward to this

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chat.
So you have built your entire

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platform on transparency and
education and in Australia you

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were here, you were here for
Week 2 weeks in Brisbane for the

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for the level up.
Sydney as well, but.

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Yeah, I went to Sydney.
Yep, Yep.

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How did you find that and what
were your, what were the lessons

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that you took away from that
visit here in Australia around,

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well in general really, but also
around communication and around

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how builders do or don't get
that right with each other or

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with the industry.
That's like 4 questions in one.

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Where do I?
Start.

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Sorry, come at you fast.
That Australians are like

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Texans.
They're very, very kind.

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They're very smart.
They're good communicators.

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They're also very handsome and
beautiful.

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This this American.
Americans know that Australian

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actors are usually the best
looking actors on the on the

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screen.
We'll take that.

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But you're also very kind.
And so I came for a conference

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is what I came for.
I don't know if you know,

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Dwayne.
Why am I Dwayne Pierce?

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Yeah, Dwayne Pierce with a Level
Up Conference.

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That's his podcast.
Too, Yeah.

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Terrific builder, super good
guy.

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I met like a couple dozen like
minded builders to Dwayne that

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were carbon copies of him.
Super kind building.

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Projects.
Really care about craftsmanship.

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I'm a little bit slightly
regretful of a video that I made

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though where I poked some some
holes in in Australian

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construction and I got to say
that that's only a subset of

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Australian builders that are
building like.

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That it certainly is and we will
get to that video.

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I've got a question about that
video.

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Of course I do.
There's.

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Plenty of builders in America
who are not building great

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houses as well.
And you kind of said at the

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beginning, I, I try to be really
open with my mistakes.

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I've made plenty over the years.
So I think what's interesting

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about building science is that
it's, it's a, it's a lifetime of

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learning and you can always
build a little better than the

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last time.
And luckily there's lots of

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great resources for people out
there, like your podcast and

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like plenty of other things out
there to learn how to build

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better.
And, and so, you know, to kind

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of wrap your question back on
communication, I think that

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Australian builders are really
seeming to really dig into

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building science and, and learn
to be educated.

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At my conference last year, we
had about a half dozen builders

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that came from Australia.
So it's really fun to see your

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community, just like my
community, really digging deep

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and realizing, hey, we can
probably build a better house.

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Let me learn how to do that.
Yeah, yeah, I think, I think

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Dwayne got about 800 people at
that event last year, which it's

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it, it was huge.
It was I, I said to him, it was

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a bit like a festival because we
have, we have conferences here

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in Australia mostly targeted at
the professional industry, you

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know, engineers, consultants,
and they get, you know, a couple

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of hundred 300 people and
there's not a lot for builders

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here.
And to see that many builders

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rock up in Brisbane was it's
like, you know, this industry is

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screaming out For more
information on the, on the

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actual, the trade side of it.
So yeah, it was, it was great to

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see.
So that's nice your, your

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feedback is that we're all kind
and good looking.

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I like that that's.
A pretty good summary I would

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say.
This high performance word, many

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builders struggle with
translating that into everyday

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decisions.
I don't know if it's the same

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over in the US, but here in
Australia, particularly when

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you're on the beginning of, of
any journey really, you know,

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working out how to turn the
knowledge into practicality and

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without being fearful of
stuffing it up or creating more

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problems is quite strong.
So what do you think is 1

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building science principle that
every builder should start with

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regardless of their budget or
experience?

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Jess, I think the, I think the
number one principle that

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builders and anyone who's
related to the project needs to

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think about is water.
You know, water is the number

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one enemy to durability.
And when we don't manage water

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very well, we end up with ROTS,
we end up with mold, we end up

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with lawsuits, we end up with
buildings that have problems.

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So we need to be experts in
water.

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And I would start with bulk
water, whether that's the water

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that comes from the sky on the
rainstorm or whether that's the

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water that maybe comes from the
ground from and in ground

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foundation or a storm water
management issue.

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If we deal with water first,
that's going to deal with 80% of

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the lawsuits out there.
Frankly, that's that's 80% of

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the reason, at least in the US
builders get sued is water.

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Once we deal with water, then we
can get to all these other

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things that are important as
well.

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But water is really the number
one thing.

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So if, if we're going to get
good at one thing, it's going to

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be making sure that our houses
are dry.

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And the analogy I like to use
and that you've probably heard

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me use, and I bet your listeners
have heard me talk about is how,

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you know, in in America in the
old days, every building had an

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overhang, had a ball cap on the
building, right?

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You know, if I wear this ball
cap out into the rain, my nose

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is going to stay pretty dry.
Now, the rest of my body might

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get wet, but my nose is going to
stay dry.

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Now if I take this ball cap and
turn it backwards, what's going

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to happen?
You know is going to get wet is.

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Going to get wet, right?
And so as we've built more and

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more modern buildings with less
overhangs, parapet walls, we've

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forgotten how to build things
that are really waterproof

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because we didn't have to for
many decades.

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Our houses for years had
overhangs.

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And in America, you know, it was
pretty common for older houses

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that have two and three foot
overhangs.

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If you go over to Europe, in a
lot of places, like I visited

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Switzerland not long ago, a lot
of those old buildings had 6

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foot overhangs.
They didn't have, they didn't

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have fancy materials.
So if you've got a golf umbrella

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up, you know, a real big
umbrella over top of you, does

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it really matter?
If you're wearing a cheap

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raincoat, you've got a golf
umbrella up, you know, you could

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wear your, your grandpa's old
raincoat that's kind of open at

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the top.
It doesn't matter because you

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got a golf umbrella.
But in a modern build where

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either you have not a golf,
either just a real small

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umbrella or maybe just a ball
cap, how do you stay dry?

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You know you're going to have a
Patagonia jacket with a hood.

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And when you zip your hood up,
that hood and that jacket better

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be perfect.
You may not have any rips or

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tears in that jacket because now
all of a sudden we're exposed

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for the life of the building.
And now any wind driven water

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might still hit me in the face
even though I've got a ball cap

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on them because I've got, I've
got this really tight shell

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around me.
So in modern buildings, modern

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construction, it's really all
about water.

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If we can manage that water,
well, we're going to manage 80%

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plus of our problems kind of
that Pareto principle. 80% of

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the time it's it's, it's water.
So if we can manage that, then

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we can move on to the 20%.
Yeah, yeah.

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And it just comes from so many
places, like water comes from

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moisture, you know, vapor, fog,
water it, it, there's so many

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different places it can come
from.

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Yeah.
And you got to be ready.

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You got to be ready for all of
them.

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So, you know, so that's more of
a design principle as well,

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rather than, well, are the, we
call them eaves in Australia

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rather than overhangs.
But that's, that's a design.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I did AI did an online course

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with Joe Seabrick earlier in the
year and it was a full time job.

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Awesome, I actually had him on
the podcast.

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You should go back and listen to
episode 5.

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Oh, I need to go back and listen
to.

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That's great, my heroes.
Yeah, he's actually coming to

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Australia next year too, which
we're all pretty excited about.

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So what was I going to say?
Yeah.

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So that is more of a design.
Yeah, there is.

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They're more of a design
inclusion.

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Do you have one for builders?
So, you know, something that

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they should pay attention to on
I think.

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That still goes back to builders
though, because a lot of times

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the builders don't have anything
to do with the design, but we

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have everything to do with the
build.

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And one of the problems that
builders have is that, you know,

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we we want to do the job.
We are incentivized to build the

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project, right?
We don't make any money unless

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we build something.
And often times we get clients

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who are like, gosh, this is
really expensive.

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I, we need either need to bring
the budget down 10% or I'm going

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to have to find another builder.
And we're like, oh, no, don't do

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that.
You know, we'll, we'll figure

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out a cheaper windows system.
We'll use a less expensive house

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wrap or WRB, or maybe I'll find
someone else to bid this section

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of the house.
And this expression in America

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is we, we cut ourselves off at
the knees, meaning, you know,

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we, we under budget for things
that are really important.

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They have to have the sub zero
and the marble countertops.

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We can't budget that out, but we
can budget out as a really good

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house for app or sill pans for
the windows or a good tradesmen

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or woman to install them
correctly.

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So I think that's, that's the
other thing that we we need to

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be really cautious about is OK,
we can build a waterproof modern

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house, but we need to have the
right resources, we need to have

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the right materials.
And maybe we might even need an

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extra person to help us.
Like in America, it's becoming

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more and more common to see an
envelope engineer help us with

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those details.
Like if I get a fancy house that

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has no overhangs, but not a lot
of details for how to install

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those windows without leaking,
then I'll say to the client

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early on or to the architect,
hey, you know, I really think we

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should get an envelope engineer
call WJE and have them give us

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some details for how to do this
correctly.

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Yeah.
And, you know, sometimes

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builders think, oh, I can do
that myself.

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But in reality, we, we need help
with that sometimes, a lot of

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the time.
So that's another thing that

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that builders can say is, hey, I
definitely am excited about

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building this detail this and
you know, whatever modern

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structure or, or the whatever
we're doing that's very that has

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a lack of forgiveness.
But let's get some outside help

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on this.
And then let's also get them to

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come out when I've done it and
inspect it before we cover it up

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so that I have somebody else who
can say, yeah, we did that

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correctly.
We can move on.

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Maybe we do a spray rack test.
Maybe we just stand out there

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with a hose and we'll check from
a hose that it's that it's

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watertight, but we need to do
some additional things besides

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just, you know, showing up to
the job and saying, all right,

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00:12:30,400 --> 00:12:32,040
what are we doing today?
Yeah.

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00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:34,960
So you're saying rather than an
actual detail on the build,

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00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,440
you're, you're saying that
builders should should ask for

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00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,440
help more and look outside more
and, you know, look for more

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00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,920
resources and think outside the
square of what they would

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00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:44,680
normally do.
That's.

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00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:46,920
Right.
Yeah, yeah.

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00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:48,400
Good advice.
Good advice, Matt.

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00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,480
Yeah.
Speaking of durability, our most

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00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,200
recent podcast episode, you
talked about durability and

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00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:56,960
serviceability, and you were
talking about how hot houses

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00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,800
last hundreds of years.
So how do we design and build

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00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,200
houses that last hundreds of
years?

239
00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:06,880
Because at the moment we're
pushing 20 if we're at best.

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00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:12,400
Let me go back to somebody you
mentioned, this guy Joe

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00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,440
Stibrick, who is kind of the
godfather of building science in

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00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,840
America.
He wrote an article years ago on

243
00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:23,520
his website, buildingscience.com
called the perfect wall.

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00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,280
And in the article he said this
is how you could build a house

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00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:32,440
that would last 500 years.
And I've kind of taken the, the

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00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:35,360
word perfect wall and coined the
phrase monopoly framing.

247
00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:39,880
So we've, we've, we've taken
Joe's principles and, and

248
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,160
brought it into a way that I
like to call monopoly framing,

249
00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,920
which really is a way that you
could build a house that could,

250
00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,720
according to Joe Stibrich, the
the foremost expert in America,

251
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,120
as long as you put a good
foundation on the House, if you

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00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,040
build it with the perfect wall,
that house could last 500 years.

253
00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:01,600
The idea being, if my, you know,
my desk in my office here is

254
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,240
wood or here's a wood wall right
here.

255
00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,520
How long would that wood wall
last in my office?

256
00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:09,040
As long as it's kept dry and
it's in this air conditioned

257
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,480
space, pretty long time.
You know, we, we could get a

258
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,440
table from the Ming Dynasty in
China.

259
00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:19,000
It might be 1000 years old and
it's a wood table.

260
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,920
Why did that wood table last
'cause it was kept inside, it

261
00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:25,680
was camp, kept at the same
temperature and humidity that

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00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:31,640
you and I like, you know, 50%
humidity and 70°F.

263
00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:34,040
Or was that 30 Celsius?
Something like that?

264
00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,720
7070 is like, yeah, less than
that.

265
00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,440
I mean 20 somewhere I think.
Celsius about that 22 Celsius,

266
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:42,480
yeah.
So that that dining room table,

267
00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:46,240
as long as it's kept inside in
those good conditions, wood can

268
00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,640
last a long, long time.
So in this article, just Ebrick

269
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,840
says, well, the perfect way to
build a house if you're going to

270
00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,000
build a Woodhouse is to put all
the control layers on the

271
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:58,880
outside of the wood and let the
wood be the same temperature and

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00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:00,360
humidity as the rest of the
house.

273
00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:05,240
So if we build a house that's
very waterproof and very

274
00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:10,520
airtight, that maybe has a vapor
barrier or maybe a vapor

275
00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,920
retarder on the outside, and
then we put most of the

276
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:18,360
insulation or all the insulation
outside of that, well, now we've

277
00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,680
got a wall that could last 500
years.

278
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:22,840
Mm hmm.
So you never thought about the

279
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:24,880
Sorry Matt.
Good.

280
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:25,760
Jess No.
You're good.

281
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,040
I was just going to say I never
thought about the perfect wall

282
00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,960
as a durability detail.
I'm all thought of it as an

283
00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:34,400
energy efficient detail.
And also, you know, I suppose

284
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,680
you all the, the control layers
being on the outside keeps water

285
00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,080
on the outside as well.
But I always thought about it

286
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,080
more in terms of them or
bridging and keeping that frame

287
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:47,240
warm rather than keeping it of
course dry, which is, you know.

288
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,200
It's it's really the dryness
that matters and.

289
00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,960
Remotely it is.
Airflow can move water too, so,

290
00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:57,200
you know, bulk waters are #1
concerned.

291
00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,960
And then depending on your
climate in Australia, there's

292
00:15:59,960 --> 00:16:02,400
lots of places in Australia that
are very temperate.

293
00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,400
There's also some not so
temperate places as well where

294
00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,760
there's times of the year where
it's very hot and humid, other

295
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,240
times where it's very cold.
So if we've got air leaking

296
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,040
through our buildings, that air
can bring a lot of moisture

297
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:21,240
movement with it as well.
So by building the perfect wall,

298
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,240
putting the waterproofing on the
outside and the air proofing on

299
00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,200
the outside, the air barrier
layer, now we can build a wall

300
00:16:28,200 --> 00:16:32,120
that's very well from a water
perspective, very, very tight,

301
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,560
which leads to a very durable
and a very healthy inside,

302
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,360
right?
Anytime we've got a, a mold

303
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:41,480
investigation, it's really a
water investigation.

304
00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,560
Ultimately, you know, mold
doesn't mold's not going to grow

305
00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:49,840
on my, on my paper notes here
from my meeting earlier today,

306
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,520
unless I leave it outside and
then maybe put it in a Ziploc

307
00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:57,040
bag later, right?
But otherwise, this is just

308
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,360
wood.
This is paper that's just broken

309
00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,000
down wood.
And we know the more the broken

310
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:05,160
down the wood is, the more
chance that mold's going to

311
00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:06,960
grow.
You're going to see more mold

312
00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,440
growth typically on the back of
sheetrock because it's paper,

313
00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,880
let's say.
Then you are on the 2 by fours

314
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,280
or on maybe these hardwoods on
the wall over here.

315
00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,040
So if we can control moisture
and we can control air, we've

316
00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:24,400
gotten 9899% there when it comes
to really, really durable.

317
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,880
And then there's some other
things you can do like Brent

318
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,280
Hull and I were in that podcast.
We're talking about alternate

319
00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:32,200
building systems.
Like he's for any of your

320
00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,520
podcast followers that are
coming to my build Show live

321
00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,800
conference in three weeks, Brent
is showing a house on the VIP

322
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,840
tour that's triple wide masonry,
which is a fancy term for

323
00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:45,640
basically it's a full brick
house.

324
00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:51,400
It's it's three courses of wide
brick with plaster on the inside

325
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:53,360
and with bricks showing on the
outside.

326
00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,080
Yeah, well, if water leaks into
that assembly, what's going to

327
00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:57,360
happen?
Like.

328
00:17:57,440 --> 00:18:00,080
Three courses of brick Three,
you said?

329
00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:05,360
Three courses, That's right.
So it's a solid masonry house

330
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:09,280
like we build in America all the
time, 100 a 150 years ago.

331
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,360
We don't build them that way
anymore very often.

332
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:15,160
But we have double brick.
We have, we have double brick

333
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,920
houses in Australia with a
vented like a cavity in the

334
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:21,520
middle that breeds well that
ventilates.

335
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,840
That's being phased out though,
because it's not it's not super

336
00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,440
energy efficient.
People keep people keep trying

337
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,200
to insulate double break and it
gets complicated with managing

338
00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:35,360
the bricks getting dry.
The like the big bricks drying

339
00:18:35,360 --> 00:18:38,080
and all that sort of thing.
But we have a lot about older

340
00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,720
places are all solid, solid
block work or brick.

341
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,720
And over in WA that's still
their preferred method of

342
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:45,840
building double brick.
Interesting.

343
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:49,280
So yeah, it is interesting that
they've still hung on to that

344
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:52,840
all these years when the rest of
the country is building

345
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,440
primarily with timber.
But 333 leaves of brick is

346
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:02,160
interesting.
Very interesting but durable.

347
00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,120
Durable, that is just, I mean,
you get water that leaks in from

348
00:19:05,120 --> 00:19:07,880
a window into a triple wide
brick house.

349
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:11,960
What's gonna you know, nothing
to rot, nothing to mold either.

350
00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,360
You don't see mold growth on
concrete very often.

351
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:17,280
Sometimes you see it on a
sidewalk, maybe that's getting

352
00:19:17,280 --> 00:19:20,960
wet all the time, but your
sidewalk out on the street that

353
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:24,120
gets wet and then dries, no mold
growth there.

354
00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,040
So it's a very durable way to
build.

355
00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,360
It's also a very expensive and
energy intensive way to build.

356
00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:32,840
And just like you said, it's
also hard to insulate.

357
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,120
Correctly.
So we may not meet modern

358
00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:38,320
comfort standards for a house
like that.

359
00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,640
So that's why Joe Stiebrick's
perfect wall makes a lot of

360
00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:45,040
sense.
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure.

361
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:46,240
Yes.
That was the point of the

362
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,320
question, wasn't it?
We would digress.

363
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,320
You often talk about the
importance of learning from

364
00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:56,520
failure.
Did you see any details or

365
00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,960
practices here in Australia that
you think could lead to

366
00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,520
unintended consequences, whether
that's moisture, durability or

367
00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,800
occupant health?
Yeah, unfortunately I did.

368
00:20:07,120 --> 00:20:09,720
And I I did a video on it and I,
I hope that I didn't.

369
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,320
I saw that it made some
headlines in.

370
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,720
Australia, it did it, it, it
actually took a few months, but

371
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,640
all the new the news, all the
news outlets sort of picked this

372
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,680
video up a couple of months,
three months later and it just

373
00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:27,440
it went bonkers.
I mean, my, my hope is that it

374
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,120
would spur people on to build
better.

375
00:20:29,120 --> 00:20:31,440
I hope that those builders,
hopefully I didn't call it any

376
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,720
specific builders.
I did have one builder that

377
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,160
toured me through who was very
nice and seemed to build a

378
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,600
better house than most.
But the production builders that

379
00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:44,080
I was visiting, I, I tried to be
very specific if I'm not showing

380
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,920
who they were, but but really
what I was seeing was houses

381
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:52,600
that were doing some things just
as dumb as we do in America.

382
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:56,680
Don't get me wrong, this is not
specific to Australia, but

383
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,640
ductwork in unconditioned
spaces, extremely dumb.

384
00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,480
We do that all day long.
I can go to a house 10 miles

385
00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,360
from here under construction
that's doing that too.

386
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:10,200
That's really, really dumb.
Guaranteed to find mold, a slab

387
00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,120
on great house that has the
insulation on the flat and then

388
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:17,320
ductwork that goes above the
insulation outside of the

389
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:21,560
conditioned space.
That's like 99.99999% of

390
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,480
construction.
And that's really dumb.

391
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,880
That's extremely dumb.
It it leads to a house that

392
00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,800
leaks air, it leads to a house
that has mold issues, it leads

393
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,320
the indoor air quality issues.
We've got to bring our ducks in

394
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,640
the condition space And and just
like Australia does that, that's

395
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,120
all over Texas as well.
It's one of the reasons why I

396
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:43,560
make videos all the time.
I probably talk about that on a

397
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:49,080
on a monthly basis on my video.
It drives me crazy that we still

398
00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,280
do it.
It's just such a bad detail.

399
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,120
The other thing that that I saw
was really a lack of care for

400
00:21:55,120 --> 00:21:57,360
both waterproofing and air
ceiling details.

401
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,080
And that's very common here in
the states too.

402
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:02,680
You know, if you, if you go back
and see my videos, there's,

403
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,400
there's houses in America that
are being built with cardboard

404
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,680
sheathing, which is just
absolutely ridiculous.

405
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,600
It's the worst possible
sheathing in the world from a

406
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,200
structural standpoint and from a
waterproofing and an air

407
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,840
proofing standpoint, it's it's
ridiculous that we're still

408
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:22,280
doing that.
How is that even on the market?

409
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:25,880
It meets code, believe it or
not, from a structural

410
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:28,600
standpoint.
You can put this structural

411
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:33,360
cardboard on top of your timber
framing and it will resist

412
00:22:33,360 --> 00:22:37,200
enough racking strength to meet
code, but it's just a really,

413
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,720
really bad detail.
We use things like ply here for

414
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,680
that.
Which I love.

415
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,760
That's great.
And so it makes it much easier

416
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,160
than if you're going to put
plywood up or some type of wood

417
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,760
to go over that with let's say a
peel and stick house wrap, which

418
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,200
will deal with air tightness and
water really well.

419
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:59,160
So that's something that that
Australia can jump into and I'm

420
00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,680
still helping America jump into
that as well at the same time.

421
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,720
As a side note, Jess, I've got a
building standard coming out

422
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,360
January 1.
We're going to unveil it as the

423
00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:10,640
beta version of my show here in
three weeks.

424
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:14,000
But look for a a brand new
building standard called the

425
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:18,280
build HD standard that we're
going to unveil January 1st.

426
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,800
The HD stands for high
durability.

427
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,080
You know, there's, there's lots
of good building standards out

428
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:25,800
there.
There's Passive House and

429
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,600
there's pretty good house
standards and there's building

430
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,880
codes in America, but those
those codes generally deal with

431
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,240
life safety, health and energy
efficiency.

432
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:38,960
They don't necessarily deal with
durability.

433
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,520
And when it comes to indoor air
quality, when it comes to mold

434
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,360
risk, when it comes to health
concerns and longevity of the

435
00:23:46,360 --> 00:23:50,480
house, durability is key.
And it all goes back to water.

436
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:55,760
So in my in my standard that I'm
unveiling, you'll see we have a

437
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,800
heavy focus on making sure that
you build a house that's not

438
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:05,240
going to have water issues.
I often, I, I say, you know, my,

439
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,280
my, the beginning of my better,
better, better building Korea

440
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,680
started with energy efficiency.
And it, it took me years to, to

441
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,960
get to where I am now, where I
think a lot of the industry is

442
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,800
still stuck on making sure that
the houses are energy efficient

443
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,200
and the energy bills are low in
their solar panels.

444
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:27,560
And it, it, it takes time to, to
get to the point where you're

445
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,680
thinking about water and, and
condensation and, and

446
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,600
durability.
What took me time anyway, But it

447
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,640
is so much more important than
energy efficiency.

448
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:41,920
Making a, making a house that is
healthy and durable is, you

449
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,840
know, if you had to choose, you
would have to pick that over and

450
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,720
over over energy, over your
power bills.

451
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,080
But it's not a focus.
Power bill anytime for a House

452
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:50,600
that's going to be healthy and
durable.

453
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,880
Yeah, it's just it's not the
focus and there's the unintended

454
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,320
consequences of better energy
efficiency that lead to lower

455
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,480
durability that become
problematic and people don't

456
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:01,600
know what they're really
choosing.

457
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,840
It's time for a quick sponsor
shout out.

458
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,800
Today's episode of the Building
Psychology Potty is proudly

459
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,480
brought to you by our amazing
sponsors Enduro Builders and

460
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Climate Shore.
A huge thank you to these

461
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incredible businesses for
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462
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463
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,400
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464
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Please head over to their

465
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websites and follow their social
pages exactly.

466
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,720
Many Australians think about
better building, Passive house

467
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,000
building science as a bit of a
European import.

468
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,680
As someone who has been to
Australia and you live in the US

469
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:40,760
and have probably travelled to
many other countries in your in

470
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,040
your career and you've seen many
building practices.

471
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,160
What do you think we should keep
from Europe and what should we

472
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,280
adapt differently for our
climates?

473
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,720
And because you've got in
America, you've got, we've got 8

474
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,560
climate zones here, 8 building
code climate zones and you've

475
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:58,680
got 8IN America as well.
Yeah, sort of similar.

476
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:03,160
So you you need varied codes for
the varied climates as well.

477
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,280
Yep.
What do you think that we should

478
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,160
keep from the European
standards?

479
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,520
That's such a good question.
I love that question, Jess.

480
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,760
I've been to Europe several
times and I've learned every

481
00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,480
time I've been there.
I think let me let me start with

482
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,680
with a high level, I love the
European mindset of I want to

483
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,480
pass this house down to my
grandchildren.

484
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,640
I think that Europeans, because
they live in such an old country

485
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,800
and they're used to homes that
are hundreds of years old as

486
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:38,160
being a normal occurrence,
They're used to building at a

487
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,720
higher standard.
It's also there there's a little

488
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,600
bit of a less focus on
affordability.

489
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,880
And, and this, this was a little
tough to say this, this may not

490
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,640
make me a fan of everybody
listening, but in America, we

491
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:55,400
expect everyone to own a home
someday and, and ideally sooner

492
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,360
rather than later.
And as a result, we sometimes

493
00:26:58,360 --> 00:27:03,120
focus more on affordability than
we do on durability, longevity,

494
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,240
building good projects.
I think in Europe it's a little

495
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,200
different, frankly.
I think they expect if you're a

496
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,000
young 30 year old married couple
that you're going to live in an

497
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,880
apartment for some period of
time, maybe you won't ever live

498
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,320
in a single family home.
And that's a little bit

499
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:20,840
different.
It seems like in Australia and

500
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,160
America where we're like, Oh
yeah, everyone should own a

501
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,640
single family home.
But in Europe when they've got

502
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,280
these really old projects, the
mindset to me seems like, Oh

503
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:35,000
yeah, I'm going to pass this,
this property, this house down

504
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,520
to my grandchildren.
Why wouldn't I put copper

505
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:41,840
gutters on or something that's
going to last forever basically.

506
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,080
And so as as a side note to
that, when I went to the Baal

507
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:50,560
show in Germany, this is maybe
almost a decade ago now, I went

508
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,280
through the roofing section and
the only roof materials that I

509
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,880
saw that were available were
roofs that I swear with last at

510
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:01,120
least 50 to 100 years.
It was clay tile.

511
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:07,000
It was, you know, metal of any
sort, not a single asphalt

512
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,360
shingle to be seen anywhere.
And if you go to the American

513
00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:13,440
version of that show, whether
it's the International Builder

514
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,600
Show or maybe the Roof Expo, 90%
of what you see is a different

515
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,080
type of asphalt shingle, which
you know, and with a good

516
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:24,720
hailstorm, you can take a 40
year roof and five years after

517
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,120
it's installed, it needs
replaced.

518
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,560
Yeah, wow.
So there's a mindset around the

519
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,200
Europeans that I really like,
which is I'm going to pay for a

520
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,160
better product.
Long term thinking.

521
00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,840
Older than you are, but like in
the 80s I remember my a neighbor

522
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,440
of mine bought a Mercedes-Benz
in the like this is like 1985

523
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:44,920
when I was a teenager.
That's how old I am.

524
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:47,600
And they.
Simply bought.

525
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,520
I was born in this early 70s,
but when they brought this

526
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:56,160
Mercedes from Germany to where I
grew up in the East Coast, I'd

527
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:59,000
never seen a Mercedes before.
And they bought it 'cause it was

528
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:01,800
like, oh, we're going to keep
this car for a decade or more.

529
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,520
And at the time we were driving
American cars that if your

530
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,200
American car had 100,000 miles,
it was garbage.

531
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:09,840
Like you had to throw it away.
Basically.

532
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,480
It was a rust bolt.
You know, it was a, it was

533
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,720
rusty.
It wasn't more than anything it

534
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,680
was shot.
And this diesel Mercedes, like

535
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,320
their neighbor had it for 2 or
300,000 miles.

536
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,240
It blew our minds.
Well, then the Japanese started

537
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,240
doing this too.
They, you know, these Hondas

538
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:29,280
were built super well in the
80s, Toyotas, they started

539
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,960
selling the heck out of these
cars because they just were

540
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:33,840
built better.
They lasted longer.

541
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:35,960
We haven't done that with
houses.

542
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,160
We still build houses in
America.

543
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,200
And frankly, Australia is in
some respects like we did in the

544
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,520
1970s.
They might have nicer

545
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:47,720
countertops and better
appliances or nicer appliances,

546
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:49,960
but you know what?
They're really fundamentally

547
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,760
built the same way as they were
in the 1970s.

548
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,680
And we wouldn't accept the 1970s
car today, maybe for nostalgia

549
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,640
reasons, we might want one.
But I guarantee you my clients

550
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,280
wouldn't like the air
conditioning system.

551
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:03,920
They wouldn't like the
suspension.

552
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:05,520
They wouldn't like the gas
mileage.

553
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,760
They wouldn't like any of these
other things about this 70s car.

554
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:11,280
It wouldn't be as safe as a new
car.

555
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:15,000
So the car industry has every
year innovative and built better

556
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,000
and better cars for not that
much more money than than a than

557
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,560
a car built 50 years ago in the
scheme of things.

558
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,440
But yet home builders are 3040
years behind easily.

559
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,440
And honestly, I think that's
true in Australia as it is in

560
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,560
America and in Europe.
They're not that way.

561
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,720
They've innovative.
They have really, part of it's

562
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,640
because they've had crazy high
utility bills.

563
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:42,120
You know, a gallon of gas in
Europe is what, $15 or

564
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,480
something?
And for me it's $3 in America.

565
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,840
So they've had to do some of
this.

566
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:49,920
But this whole mindset of I'm
going to, I'm going to buy

567
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,680
something and I want it to last.
I really resonate with that and

568
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:57,040
I really, really like that.
So when it comes to Europe,

569
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,840
there's a couple of products
that I really like including,

570
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,720
you know, some of their focus on
air tightness and WRB, you know,

571
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,040
weather resistant barrier,
waterproofing windows.

572
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,120
They make some excellent
glazings out of Europe.

573
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:13,720
Am I going to build a house just
like I do in Europe, just like

574
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,240
they do in Europe?
No, not necessarily.

575
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,200
But again, if I have this
mindset like, hey, how could I

576
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,600
get this house the last?
How could I build it using the

577
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,240
same basic things?
You know, insulation in Europe's

578
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,840
not that much different Framing
may be a little different, you

579
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:30,760
know, depending on where you
are.

580
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,000
There's some places in in
Germany where they still build

581
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,200
full masonry construction with
exterior insulation.

582
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,400
But my point, Jess, is that
they've got a great mindset for

583
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,080
wanting to build things that are
going to last and frankly, being

584
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:50,040
willing to pay for it.
I was in Italy and Ireland

585
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,840
earlier in the year and I don't
think I saw a single timber

586
00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:54,480
frame building the entire time I
was there.

587
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,920
And there's actually not that
not that much construction going

588
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:00,800
on in Ireland.
I think it's pretty hard to sort

589
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:02,760
of buy land over there.
It's all family owned and all

590
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,800
that sort of thing and it's
passed down through generations.

591
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:11,000
So it's not super easy to get
land and build, but the projects

592
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,640
I did see, I saw, I did see
insulated concrete.

593
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,440
So externally insulated
concrete, which was very

594
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,840
exciting for me because we don't
get, we don't get much of that

595
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:24,400
here in Australia.
And I saw in Italy, one

596
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,800
interesting thing that I saw in
Italy was, you know, we're

597
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:34,560
talking earlier about eaves and
overhangs and waterproofing and

598
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,280
durability and all and flat
roofs and all that sort of

599
00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:40,120
thing.
Over in Italy it was all flat

600
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,800
roofs.
Like there was just a sea of

601
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,520
flat roofs everywhere I went.
And I couldn't quite understand

602
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,400
that.
I mean, I think maybe they used

603
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:54,360
the flat roofs as living space,
but I couldn't quite understand

604
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,320
given that we give flat roof
such a hard time here in

605
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,920
Australia for being really not
durable detail and there's no

606
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:04,920
eaves over there.
It was all like is all I

607
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:07,800
parabids.
Yeah, I've got.

608
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,560
But it works.
It works.

609
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,440
And there's the reconstruction
there too.

610
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,440
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's part of it.

611
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:15,560
That's heavyweight.
Yeah.

612
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:16,640
Mason.
Reconstruction, yeah.

613
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,000
Yeah, yeah, it's just so
different and I there's.

614
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,560
There's frankly more durable
flat roofs out there too.

615
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,200
I mean, we tend to use really
thin TPO in Texas anyways for

616
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:32,400
flat roofs, which it's a type of
flat roof membrane that really

617
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,280
only lasts about 15 years before
it needs replaced.

618
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,080
And you know, there's a system
out of Germany called Kemper,

619
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,080
which is what's used on like New
York City Plaza decks for

620
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,240
waterproofing that's four or
five times more expensive, but

621
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,040
will last three or four times
longer than a than a standard

622
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,360
membrane.
So there are better materials

623
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,000
out there for flat roofs.
It's just a matter.

624
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,960
Of being able to.
Pay for them and research them.

625
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:02,040
Yeah, we do them really poorly
here.

626
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,080
We have, we have colour bond
shading, which is like a a metal

627
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,840
shading which is very durable.
It's extremely durable.

628
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,960
But everything that goes
underneath that is is sort of

629
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,320
poorly specified and assembled
for the most part.

630
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:25,400
And yeah, next question.
So you so your answer to that

631
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:31,520
question is, is the a mindset, a
mindset of durability?

632
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,800
I think that's right, yeah.
A mindset for longevity and

633
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,800
durability is really, yeah,
pretty cool.

634
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:40,560
But in terms of actual products,
you know, they're really on the

635
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,719
forefront for a lot of WRB
products, tapes and sealants.

636
00:34:46,679 --> 00:34:50,159
My my fresh air system at my
personal house is from a Swiss

637
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:52,480
company that's made in
Switzerland, and they've got

638
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,159
some of the world's finest fresh
air systems.

639
00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:57,920
They've been building airtight
for a lot longer than we have in

640
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:02,120
America.
So, you know, I'm not in any way

641
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,920
trying to disparage the Passive
House standard.

642
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,000
I think there's lots of good
things with it.

643
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,720
But the standard that I'm coming
out with goes beyond just energy

644
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:14,640
efficiency.
And in fact, energy efficiency

645
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,720
in, in my book is in some places
it can be really important to

646
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:21,440
prevent condensation depending
on which market you're in.

647
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,360
But in other places, just like
you, I think, you know, you can,

648
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,320
you can focus on energy
efficiency to your detriment.

649
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,280
You know, do I want to buy a
really efficient house or do I

650
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:32,760
want to buy a really healthy
house?

651
00:35:33,240 --> 00:35:35,600
And if I had to choose, I'm
going to choose the healthy

652
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:39,320
house, maybe even if my energy
bills were higher, frankly,

653
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,760
because I want a house that's
really well built and really

654
00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:44,680
durable, but maybe not as
efficient.

655
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,320
And that's OK. 100%, I would
agree with that.

656
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,000
So actually, yes, I didn't
actually quite ask you about

657
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,080
this durability standard at the
HD standard.

658
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,800
Could you have you got any
information you can you can

659
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,000
touch on about that when it when
it's coming out and.

660
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,720
It'll be out January 1.
We're unveiling a beta version

661
00:36:05,720 --> 00:36:09,880
at the Build Show Live
conference and soliciting some

662
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,760
more feedback.
You know, we've been wrestling

663
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:13,800
with some of the things like,
hey, what do we do with this?

664
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,440
For instance, you know, it's a
non negotiable for me to have

665
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,720
all your ducks in the air
conditioned space and it's non

666
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:24,360
negotiable to have sill pans
under your windows and doors and

667
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,920
slope sills and air sealing's
super important.

668
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,120
But do you need a .6 ACH 50 that
Passivhaus requires?

669
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,760
I'm not sure you do.
And and do you need all triple

670
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,080
glazed windows and doors?
You know, if you're in Brisbane,

671
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,360
you know you may not need a
triple glazed window door.

672
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,960
When I was in Brisbane, I saw a
lot of jealousy windows which

673
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:50,080
were awesome.
And you know, if it's 55 out, I

674
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,720
might want to just throw open my
windows and doors, right?

675
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:55,840
Yeah, 'cause that's or 55
Fahrenheit, Sorry.

676
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,680
Yeah, I know.
I'm mentally calculating what

677
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:03,760
that is.
Or 20 out or 18 out Celsius, I

678
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,080
may just want to open my windows
and let that in, especially with

679
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,320
low humidity.
So airtightness maybe isn't

680
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:14,720
quite as important to me.
So it's really kind of balancing

681
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,440
energy efficiency and there is a
certain amount of it that is

682
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,920
absolutely important.
And you only get one chance

683
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,520
typically to put insulation and
you can't easily upgrade that

684
00:37:24,520 --> 00:37:27,880
later.
But at the same time, I really

685
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,240
want that waterproof house, that
house that doesn't have any

686
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:34,560
issues with water or moisture in
the walls.

687
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,000
And then we also really want
fresh air too.

688
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,440
We want to make sure that our,
our houses are getting filtered

689
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:44,200
fresh air into the house on a on
a regular basis so that we're

690
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,800
not just relying on infiltration
for fresh air.

691
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,920
So it's, it's those things that
you'll see in my standard.

692
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,240
If you pay attention to social
media, you'll probably see a

693
00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:57,400
beta version link around Build
Show Live that will go up.

694
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:02,840
But starting January 1, on both
the Build show.com and our

695
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,360
YouTube channel and some other
places, you'll see us talking

696
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,200
about it heavily.
All right.

697
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,800
I'm looking forward to having a
read of that and that will be

698
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:13,880
available internationally and it
will be available to be adopted

699
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,800
internationally.
Yeah, I mean, we're, we're still

700
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:19,080
trying to figure out we're, we
don't have a way to make money

701
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,160
on it.
So there's no fees to us.

702
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,200
We're we're doing it a little
bit differently than the Passive

703
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:29,200
House people.
No, again, no, no disrespect.

704
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,200
I think they're awesome.
But there's no fees to us.

705
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,160
It's a.
You can do the standard or not,

706
00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:36,040
it's totally up to you.
OK.

707
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:37,520
And it's a self certified
standard.

708
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,960
It's a self certified as long as
you get the third party testing

709
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:42,960
done.
Air tightness.

710
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,080
Testing requirements, there's
some air tightness testing,

711
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:49,640
there's blower testing, duct
blaster and there's some

712
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,120
engineering verifications as
well 'cause there's some

713
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,440
durability things that we think
are important that your engineer

714
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:56,800
is going to need to certify as
well.

715
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:59,720
From the framing standpoint, I
think it would be very

716
00:38:59,720 --> 00:39:02,840
applicable for Australia as
well, maybe not quite as

717
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:07,000
applicable in Germany if they're
building with non timber or

718
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:08,960
alternate building systems.
You know, if you're building an

719
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,240
ICF house, a lot of the things
wouldn't necessarily apply.

720
00:39:12,240 --> 00:39:15,480
Now the mechanical systems
would, the fresh air would some

721
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,080
of those things would would
apply.

722
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:19,600
But we're trying to figure out
how to do that.

723
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,360
And that's honestly why I'm
giving a copy out to all the

724
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:26,760
build show live attendees to
say, how do we do this?

725
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:28,200
Like how do we self certify
this?

726
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,840
What would be helpful for you in
this kind of high performance

727
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:36,200
building world to say, hey, I
built to this standard and this

728
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:38,160
is a really good standard and
here's why.

729
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,120
Love it very interesting and
intriguing build shows coming

730
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:44,760
up.
You mentioned 16th to 18th of

731
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:46,240
October.
What have you got lined up?

732
00:39:46,240 --> 00:39:48,640
Oh, it's.
Going to be incredible.

733
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,080
Last year we had 6 or 7
Australian builders that were

734
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:53,360
there so.
Amazing.

735
00:39:53,360 --> 00:39:55,120
We'll see if there's a few
diehards here.

736
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,720
Real diehards.
We have some great folks that

737
00:39:58,720 --> 00:40:02,800
came that was really we actually
had seven countries and 47

738
00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:04,760
states in America represented
last year was.

739
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,320
Wow, that's amazing.
How many people do you get at

740
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:11,200
your show?
We had 2000 last year for.

741
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,640
Our first one, we're hoping.
For first one, 2200, we'll hope,

742
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,920
hope to jump up 10%.
We'll see.

743
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,880
Yeah, But we've got a ton of
education lined up.

744
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:24,040
We also have quite a bit of
business education.

745
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:26,320
That was one thing I loved about
Dwayne's event, the level up

746
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,240
conference he did.
He had some great business, the

747
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:33,520
business of building as well.
So we've got some of that coming

748
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:34,800
up.
We also have a lot of

749
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:39,400
networking, you know, I think
that builders, architects,

750
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:44,640
engineers, remodelers for many
years in the States anyways, we

751
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,600
were kind of in a bubble.
We didn't want to talk to our

752
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,000
competitors.
You know, before social media,

753
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,680
we didn't, we didn't see what
other people doing on their job

754
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:56,360
sites.
And so, you know, we've met a

755
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,040
lot of good people on Instagram.
You know, I followed a bunch of

756
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,760
Australian builders on
Instagram, but unless I until I

757
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:05,240
went over to Australia, I didn't
get to meet them face to face.

758
00:41:05,240 --> 00:41:08,440
And there there's nothing like a
face to face meeting with

759
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:09,960
somebody.
Maybe you've even seen their

760
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,840
projects before on social media.
And all of a sudden, Oh my gosh,

761
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:16,480
I really am so glad to meet you.
I really feel like we're

762
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,680
brothers or sisters from another
mother because we're like

763
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:23,840
minded.
And so there's some connections

764
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,440
that we're really trying to
foster at Build Show Live.

765
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:31,880
We also have 160 manufacturers
signed up that have been on the

766
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,720
Build Show over the various
years with some of their best

767
00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:38,240
new products.
And I think one cool thing about

768
00:41:38,240 --> 00:41:41,640
a trade show like ours, and
there's others like this is

769
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:43,680
although ours in particular,
we've told all the

770
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:46,440
manufacturers, hey, bring your
nerdy people.

771
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:48,440
You know, I want your tech
people there.

772
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,040
I want somebody who can really
answer the question like, hey,

773
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:53,640
if I use this product, what's
the perm rating?

774
00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:57,400
Or what if I apply this fluid
applied too thick, will that

775
00:41:57,720 --> 00:41:59,960
will that take the perm rating
down to half that?

776
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:03,720
Do I run a risk of a
condensation issue if I do this?

777
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:06,080
Those are the kind of questions
that I think you're going to be

778
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:08,880
asked at the booths.
And then also, I think grabbing

779
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,360
those cards, like I said on
social media today, this guy,

780
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:17,280
Nate, who's the head chemist at
Sashco, is going to be there at

781
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:20,440
the show and he'll give you his
cell number if you ask him for

782
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,680
his card.
I called him the other day, hey,

783
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:24,200
which product should I use on
this?

784
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,200
This is my scenario.
I'm doing this, this and this.

785
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,120
He's like, oh, he should
definitely do this and here's

786
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,480
why.
I mean, I called him on his cell

787
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:33,600
and he answered.
Quick answers, yeah.

788
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,480
I think you get it at a show
like ours that's different than

789
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:40,600
a than a big nationwide show.
Yeah, yeah, no, amazing.

790
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:46,440
That's going to be 1 epic trade
show. 160 exhibitors is amazing.

791
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:48,800
It's a good size.
But it's also good Which.

792
00:42:49,040 --> 00:42:52,800
Is a good part about it.
Yeah, Yeah, it's going to be,

793
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,520
it's going to be very good.
All right.

794
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,960
So get you in the future, Jess.
Oh my God, I would love that.

795
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:03,600
Don't joke with me.
Don't joke with me.

796
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,120
You.
Can pay the flights, we'll give

797
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,280
you some free tickets.
I'm offering that right now.

798
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,720
Oh my God, wicked.
Thank you banking that sounds

799
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:15,200
good.
I'll come back to you on that

800
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,200
one.
Thank you sounds good.

801
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:20,400
All right, so let's talk about
the video.

802
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:22,840
We've alluded to the video.
We've talked about the video

803
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,840
that you made about after you
came.

804
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:27,520
I had a look at the comments on
that video.

805
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,000
Well, we're and it was.
Too many of them.

806
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:39,880
Yeah, there's 1745 of them as of
yesterday and it's a mixed bag.

807
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,200
It's a mixed, it's a mixed bag
of people saying Oh my God,

808
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:48,160
Australia, we build terribly and
you don't know what you're

809
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,720
talking about.
This climate doesn't need this

810
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:55,760
and that and steel is amazing
and you know the zero point, the

811
00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:02,400
R 0.2 thermal break is there to
stop thermal transfer and you

812
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,480
know it.
Yeah, it's, it's a mixed bag of

813
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:09,880
what you would normally get,
what we get on a regular basis

814
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:14,920
on the Internets, but 280,000
views as well.

815
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:16,920
Yeah, that's great.
So.

816
00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:18,960
It it it.
Sounds like quite a bit of them

817
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,480
in Australia is what it sounds.
Like, yes, yes, I'm from

818
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:26,360
Brisbane and you know, this
climate doesn't need blah blah

819
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:30,600
blah, all the usual stuff.
It's hard.

820
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,720
It's hard to knock those people
right, 'cause 'cause we deal

821
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:35,960
every day with the people that
are like, oh, houses need to

822
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:37,760
breathe.
You're building these houses too

823
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,360
tight.
And to be honest, I think that's

824
00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:42,680
probably would have been me 15
or 20 years ago.

825
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:43,760
I probably said.
That.

826
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,480
Yeah, it takes time to learn.
Building science is not like

827
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,360
watch a 92nd video and you're
convinced that you need to do

828
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,120
this or that.
Like I've changed my mind on

829
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,400
things.
I've experimented on my own

830
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,960
house.
I've gone to everything that I

831
00:44:59,960 --> 00:45:02,840
could ever consume that Joe
Stebrick was talking at in

832
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,640
America.
I've bought every book of his or

833
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,520
anything that's for sale on
buildingscience.com.

834
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,040
You know I'm I'm constantly
trying to make sure that I'm

835
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,880
reading the the latest from.
I have that book.

836
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:20,560
It's a great book and there's
some great analogies in here

837
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:22,720
that I'll I'll use in the
future.

838
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:26,920
Just for the listener, the the
the book that Matt's got up is A

839
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,640
House Needs to Breathe or Does
it by Alison Bales.

840
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,360
I'll put a link in the show
notes for anyone who would like

841
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,360
to purchase it, but it's a
excellent, very well written,

842
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,360
easy to read book about building
science.

843
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,840
Proceed and.
And so, you know, building

844
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,360
science is not a once and done.
Let's not get a degree in this

845
00:45:44,360 --> 00:45:48,680
from, you know, this online
source in six months and you're

846
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,400
done.
You know, there's new products,

847
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,000
there's there's new ways that
you need to think about things.

848
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:57,600
And, and especially when you're
talking about something as

849
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,040
different as a as an Australia
that has seven climate zones or

850
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,640
America.
And if I make a video about how

851
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:07,280
I'm doing something in Texas, I
need to be cautious that someone

852
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:11,560
watching that in real cold
climate doesn't go, oh, what

853
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:13,200
about, you know, you didn't do
this or that?

854
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,200
Or will that cause, you know,
this or that unintended

855
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,840
consequence?
Well, you know, it's, it's hard

856
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,480
to engage in a dialogue with
somebody who is not in the

857
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:28,400
industry or, you know, just
doesn't have a good education in

858
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,760
the topic of building science.
And so as a side note, I don't

859
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:35,680
know if you've seen this, but
just on our website,

860
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:40,960
thebuildshow.com, we actually
have now 3 modules called build

861
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:43,640
science, one O 1, two O 1 and
three O 1.

862
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,840
And it's, it's our way to help
educate the industry starting at

863
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:52,720
a very like one O 1 is filmed
that like a high school student

864
00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:55,600
could watch it and understand
what we're talking about.

865
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,160
And then as we go down the line,
we get progressively more into

866
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:00,720
the details.
We'd actually have already

867
00:47:00,720 --> 00:47:06,480
filmed four O 1 and it'll be out
hopefully before the Christmas

868
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,200
time holidays.
And we did in a way that we

869
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:14,560
could make a, a quiz at the end
of each 20 minute video.

870
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:17,720
So we could say, Hey, do you
understand these concepts like

871
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,320
multiple choice ABC or D?
What's correct?

872
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,440
And if you answer the quizzes
correctly, you get a certificate

873
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,560
at the end that says, Hey, I, I
passed build science one O

874
00:47:27,560 --> 00:47:31,040
120-1301.
And I've never said this

875
00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:33,640
publicly before, but another
thing we're looking to do

876
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,840
starting in January is actually
publish the people that have

877
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,600
passed that.
Because all the time I get

878
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:44,200
questions like, Hey, do you know
a good builder and Tupelo, Ms.

879
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,240
And I'm like, I mean, I don't
know someone there.

880
00:47:47,240 --> 00:47:50,240
I'm sorry.
But now I could say, hey, I

881
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:52,520
don't know a builder there, but
you might look on our website.

882
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:55,920
It's broken down by state or by
county.

883
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:58,760
And here's all the builders that
have passed one O 1 through

884
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:01,880
three O 1 build.
Something amazing you know at.

885
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:05,160
Least a good reference to say
they're, they're consuming build

886
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,120
show content.
Or maybe when our building

887
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,320
standard comes out, we'll say,
hey, here's builders that have

888
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,360
signed on that say, hey, I can
build to the standard, I can

889
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:16,200
build a house that meets these
standards.

890
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:17,440
Yeah.
So we'll see.

891
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,080
I'm trying to figure that out.
Yeah, we're desperate for

892
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:27,360
resources that yeah, that easily
compile all of the people that

893
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,960
you need in one place.
We have in in Adelaide

894
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:32,280
specifically, we have a book
called the Green Book.

895
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:34,600
There's an organization called
the Adelaide Sustainable

896
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:36,600
Building Network and they've put
together a green Book, which is

897
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,960
all the local architects and
builders and consultants that

898
00:48:41,120 --> 00:48:44,320
that work in this space.
But that's, yeah, it's it that

899
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,560
those sorts of reals resources
are hard to come by.

900
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,200
So I'm sure a lot of people will
find that very useful.

901
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,280
Yeah, I hope so.
Yeah, figuring that out right

902
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,200
now.
Yeah, awesome, awesome.

903
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:55,400
You're doing a lot of great
things that.

904
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:57,920
So what would you give, What
advice would you give to

905
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:00,400
Australian builders and
designers who are who are

906
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,640
pushing ahead of that curve
without much local support?

907
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:11,200
Gosh, that's a hard one, Jess.
I mean, one good thing is that

908
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:16,240
true wood houses, timber filled
houses, that is they're actually

909
00:49:16,240 --> 00:49:21,040
pretty Dang forgiving.
Metal framed houses are less

910
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,680
forgiving.
So that's one reason why I at

911
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:25,960
least in that video was like,
gosh, I'm a little worried about

912
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,800
this.
They're frankly just less

913
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:32,440
forgiving.
Wood as a as a building material

914
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,640
is pretty incredible.
I mean, God designed this tree

915
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,800
that can suck up moisture 200
feet in the air and feed the

916
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:42,120
entire tree, cut it down.
And as long as it's in your

917
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:45,800
living room and it's kept dry,
it can last for almost forever.

918
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,840
And it's pretty easy to work.
And it's relatively lightweight

919
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,320
compared to steel and some of
these other building materials.

920
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,480
And oh, by the way, it's carbon
sequestering and all these other

921
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,760
good things that that happen
with trees and trees that grow

922
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,400
and they're cut down and
regrown.

923
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,080
But it's it generally is a
pretty forgiving material.

924
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:11,920
So as long as we're using wood
as a baseline, frankly, we have

925
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:14,160
a little bit of a leg up on some
of these other building

926
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,680
materials that are a little more
exotic.

927
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:21,000
Let's put it that way.
Wood can be very forgiving.

928
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,120
Wood can absorb moisture and let
it go.

929
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,760
As long as the drying rate is
bigger than the absorption rate,

930
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,040
we're going to be OK.
So, you know, if we build a wood

931
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:35,760
frame house and we keep it dry
to begin with and we do a really

932
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:37,920
good job on the WRB.
This is kind of back to the

933
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,120
beginning of the podcast where I
said the number one thing we

934
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:43,600
need to deal with is water.
We build a wood framed house and

935
00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:46,280
we keep the water off of it.
On the outside.

936
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,640
We really focus on our WRB.
We consider going to a, let's

937
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,960
say a peel and stick WRB.
We do pans for our windows and

938
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:56,400
doors.
We, we allow them to leak onto

939
00:50:56,400 --> 00:51:00,720
the WRB but then move to the
outside of the building beyond

940
00:51:00,720 --> 00:51:03,640
that.
Shockingly, that's 80% of the

941
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:08,400
problems, right?
As a side note, I thought it was

942
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:13,320
you may, you may have I, I
peeked at your questions ahead

943
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:14,760
of time.
So you may, you may still be

944
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:17,600
asking me this, but one detail I
loved in Australia that I

945
00:51:17,600 --> 00:51:20,200
thought was fabulous, that
seemed to be in the Australian

946
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,680
building code was that floor
drains were required in

947
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,200
bathrooms.
What a fabulous detail.

948
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,200
You know.
What rains more than your shower

949
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:32,200
and your house, right?
You know, no, no climate in

950
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,480
Australia is any more rainy than
any given master shower.

951
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,040
Dumping an inch a day or two
inches a day of water onto the

952
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,400
floor.
So to put a floor drain in,

953
00:51:42,720 --> 00:51:46,600
that's an incredible detail.
That's not done on all but the

954
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:52,200
top .0001% of homes in America.
So the fact that you guys have

955
00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,960
that as a standard feature,
that's wonderful and will

956
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,960
prevent a lot of problems and
frankly just a lot of plain old

957
00:51:59,960 --> 00:52:01,840
insurance problems.
Most of the time when you have a

958
00:52:01,840 --> 00:52:06,280
flood, it's a super expensive
insurance issue.

959
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,760
But by putting a floor drain in,
you could probably stop 8090% of

960
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,680
those floods from happening to
be in with because they go down

961
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:15,120
the drain and they're never an
issue.

962
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,600
So you guys are pretty smart by
putting that in your code.

963
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,360
I would like to see that get
adopted in America as well.

964
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,280
That's actually in my build HD
standard.

965
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,400
Yeah, Nice, nice.
That's cool.

966
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,080
You're taking things from from
like your, your international

967
00:52:29,080 --> 00:52:30,280
experience as well.
That's cool.

968
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:31,680
That's cool.
Yeah.

969
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:34,240
I think, I think the thing that
most builders worried about in

970
00:52:34,240 --> 00:52:37,520
Australia when they might they
progress to this level of

971
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:41,040
building is condensation.
So, you know, I think keeping

972
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:45,320
bulk water out and and all that
sort of thing is really vital,

973
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,880
really important, but it's not
as scary as the unknown of

974
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:49,720
condensation.
So they're all worried about

975
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:52,520
roof ventilation and they're
worried about, you know,

976
00:52:52,720 --> 00:52:56,000
trapping moisture inside walls
and vapor drive and they they

977
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:57,840
start freaking out about that
sort of thing.

978
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:02,240
So that's, you know, a huge
motivation for me in, in what I

979
00:53:02,240 --> 00:53:08,520
do in my work is, is, you know,
educating people on how to

980
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,080
mitigate those risks.
So they're not so afraid to, to

981
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:15,520
keep keep going, keep improving.
Is that is that the same in

982
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:17,800
America?
The condensation fear?

983
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,960
Yeah, for sure.
And it it is a legitimate fear.

984
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,320
But again, kind of going back to
what we talked about earlier.

985
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:26,160
Have you heard the word the
Pareto principle?

986
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:27,840
If I say that, you know what I'm
talking about.

987
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:28,600
Pareto.
Nope.

988
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:35,000
It's this old adage that 80% of
the problems are caused by 20%

989
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:36,480
of the issues.
Oh, yes, yes.

990
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,440
So, you know, if we focus on
bulk water and then focus on

991
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,800
air, we're going to get rid of
most of the problems in our

992
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:45,720
houses and condensation can
happen.

993
00:53:45,720 --> 00:53:49,960
Don't get me wrong, but the
amount of vapor failures I've

994
00:53:49,960 --> 00:53:52,840
seen in houses, I can count on
less than one hand.

995
00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,800
And in fact, I asked Joe
Stebrick one time at dinner

996
00:53:55,800 --> 00:54:00,360
years ago, Hey Joe, you know,
what have you seen on on vapor

997
00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,040
failures?
And he said, Matt, I could, I

998
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:04,480
think he actually is one who
said this.

999
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:06,960
I could count the vapor failures
on one hand.

1000
00:54:07,720 --> 00:54:11,880
How many times have you seen
Matt issues with, with water and

1001
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:16,800
air problems in houses causing
that numerous I, there's no way

1002
00:54:16,840 --> 00:54:19,440
I could count I, I can't tell
you how many failures I've been

1003
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,400
involved with in buildings that
were water, air related.

1004
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:26,480
So if we deal with water and air
first, vapor's really far down

1005
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,920
in the West.
OK, how do you separate the air

1006
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,360
and the vapor?
Because vapor is in air.

1007
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:35,120
So how do you in terms of air
versus vapor failures, what

1008
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:36,760
would you?
Be looking at if the air drive

1009
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,760
then we're going to stop the
vapor issues, right?

1010
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,120
Yeah, yes, you know.
If if we air seal the house

1011
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:46,320
properly, yes, then we're going
to stop 9598% of the vapor

1012
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,720
issues.
And an analogy that I've seen

1013
00:54:49,720 --> 00:54:53,840
Joe use is he'll say on this
sheet of on this sheet of

1014
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,840
interior drywall, what do you
call it in Australia drywall?

1015
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:58,840
Plasterboard.
Plasterboard.

1016
00:54:58,840 --> 00:55:02,000
On this sheet of.
Plasterboard, if I have a hole

1017
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:05,400
this big in that sheet of
plaster board and, and there's

1018
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:09,400
air movement through that little
hole, I can bring gallons of

1019
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:13,080
water or liters of water into
the house on the Airstream.

1020
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:18,040
But when it comes to the the
amount of of vapor drive through

1021
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:22,000
that plaster board, we're
talking about this much water

1022
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:25,520
that could, you know, a thimble
full of water that could be that

1023
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,400
could go, that could diffuse
through.

1024
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:30,040
The through.
It could actually get through.

1025
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:34,440
So when it comes to vapor drive,
it's just such a small issue

1026
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:39,000
compared to air movement and
compared to bulk water that it's

1027
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:44,640
almost negligible.
So the two, the 2 little I, I

1028
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:48,480
call them ditties that we repeat
regularly or I repeat regularly

1029
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:52,160
is fill tight, ventilate, right?
So that air tightness layer

1030
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:55,240
controlling the air tightness
layer and ventilating it

1031
00:55:55,240 --> 00:55:58,560
correctly and cold spots equals
mold spots.

1032
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:02,440
So, and again, cold spots equals
mold spots.

1033
00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,760
Yeah, I like, I don't like that.
Yeah.

1034
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:06,120
So that alludes to thermal
bridging.

1035
00:56:06,440 --> 00:56:08,040
Yeah, thermal bridging and
condensation.

1036
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,640
And I reckon if you sort out
those two things, you're pretty

1037
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:13,360
well right.
There's not a lot else that can

1038
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:14,760
really go wrong apart from bulk
water.

1039
00:56:16,320 --> 00:56:17,440
So it.
Yeah.

1040
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:20,240
We'll try it on on the cold
spots equals mold spots.

1041
00:56:20,240 --> 00:56:22,640
That's more of a deal in metal
framing than it is in wood

1042
00:56:22,640 --> 00:56:23,360
framing, though.
Right.

1043
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,240
Yeah, yeah.
Or steel like aluminium windows,

1044
00:56:26,240 --> 00:56:28,280
steel frame.
It's like sport steel portal

1045
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:34,000
frames or steel, you know, house
framing, poorly insulate, poor

1046
00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:36,800
insulation install, particularly
in bathrooms where it's high

1047
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,480
humidity and those cold areas of
the ceiling can attract

1048
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:45,520
moisture.
And yeah, yeah, steel framing in

1049
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:51,600
Australia is is it was egged on
by COVID and supply issues with

1050
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:53,760
with timber.
But it is everywhere.

1051
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:57,800
It is everywhere here at the
moment and some people just love

1052
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:00,760
it.
Yeah, I, I saw, I, I caught that

1053
00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:01,760
in the comments.
That's for.

1054
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:05,560
Sure.
Yeah, it can.

1055
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:07,000
Work.
It just needs some other

1056
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:09,120
detailing than what I saw, let's
put it that way.

1057
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,160
A. 100% I've got a friend who
lives in Ireland, the one I was

1058
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,400
over in Ireland to visit her
earlier in the year and she's

1059
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,640
looking at, she's looking at
building a house over there with

1060
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,080
her husband.
And she sent me a brochure

1061
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:23,800
recently from a company that
builds steel framed homes.

1062
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,080
And I was like, red flag, red
flag.

1063
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:26,840
Let me have a look at this
before you do anything.

1064
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,800
And she sent me the brochure and
it was incredible.

1065
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:33,600
It was externally insulated
steel at the like the, the, the,

1066
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,120
the assembly of the wall on the
floor was incredible.

1067
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:39,200
That's how you do steel
properly.

1068
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:43,520
And it's yes, wow.
Yeah, I'll put, I'll put the

1069
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:47,120
link to that to that brochure in
the show notes for for those who

1070
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:49,000
are interested in seeing seal
done properly.

1071
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,680
But I was like, green tick, go
for it if this is what you want.

1072
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,880
There's a that's a durable frame
that's that's going to be

1073
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:03,600
comfortable and well detailed.
So yeah, yeah, pretty awesome.

1074
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:11,280
I was impressed.
OK, so last question, Matt, I

1075
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:14,600
asked my guests or I asked all
of my guests the same question

1076
00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,680
because I'm trying to compile an
amazing list of wisdom from my

1077
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:22,480
from my guests.
What is the one thing you have

1078
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:24,920
learned in your career that you
want the listener to know if you

1079
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:33,760
had to pick one?
So one thing I've learned in my

1080
00:58:33,760 --> 00:58:38,960
career that I would pass on.
That's a great question.

1081
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:48,720
I think the biggest thing I
would say is never assume you

1082
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:52,400
know it all.
Always have an open mind to be

1083
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:57,120
learning and being educated.
I think that I think that's one

1084
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:01,680
thing that's really helped me
get to where I am today is by

1085
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:08,880
always saying, you know, I'm
willing to learn and be educated

1086
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:13,600
and frankly, be I'm willing to
be proven wrong on my, on my

1087
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:16,320
past building practices and
change what I'm doing.

1088
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:23,000
And, and between that and always
having the goal, my whole team

1089
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:25,600
has always had the goal of
always building each house a

1090
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:27,400
little bit better than the last
one.

1091
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,560
And so when we, when we realize,
hey, you know, this could be a

1092
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:34,360
little better, I think that I
think we really should be doing

1093
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,320
a better fresh air system for
our houses.

1094
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,040
This basic system we've been
doing, I don't think this is

1095
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:40,840
very good.
We need to move to this system.

1096
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:44,040
We've done it.
And then if we realize, oh, you

1097
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:47,440
know, there actually is a better
system than that, stop doing

1098
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,120
this and do this instead.
We've done that.

1099
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,160
So that's, I think that's
something that we've always done

1100
00:59:53,160 --> 00:59:56,160
is we've always kind of upped
our, our own internal standards

1101
00:59:56,160 --> 01:00:00,040
as a company and said, Hey,
here's, here's what we can do

1102
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:02,680
better.
And then lastly, I would say

1103
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:06,720
share your failures among your
team and among your.

1104
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:11,360
Your company, at a minimum.
I tend to share my failures with

1105
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:14,840
the whole world, but there's a
couple failures that I've only

1106
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:19,560
shared with my team.
And I try to make sure that we

1107
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,800
have good institutional
knowledge about dumb things that

1108
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:24,760
we've done.
Whether it's a particular

1109
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:28,880
manufacturer that I didn't think
treated us well on service or

1110
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:31,960
whether it was a detail that led
to a failure.

1111
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,080
Make sure that when you make a
mistake that you tell people

1112
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:39,360
about it and you share that
either with your community or at

1113
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:41,880
a minimum with your internal
team.

1114
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:44,480
I think that makes a really big
difference.

1115
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:48,280
And make sure that you don't do
dumb things over and over.

1116
01:00:48,960 --> 01:00:53,240
Yep, excellent.
With four things, Jess rather

1117
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,960
than one.
That's OK.

1118
01:00:56,320 --> 01:00:59,320
That's all right.
We'll, we'll take all the wisdom

1119
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,560
we can get.
Thank you so much, Matt, for

1120
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:04,320
your time.
This was a very interesting

1121
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:05,640
hour.
I really appreciate you coming

1122
01:01:05,640 --> 01:01:07,520
on the show.
Thank you, Jess.

1123
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:09,120
I really appreciate it.
I'm looking forward to seeing

1124
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:12,440
you at a future build show live.
Take me up on that free ticket,

1125
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:13,600
All right?
All right.

1126
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:15,400
Oh, I will.
I definitely will make sure.

1127
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:17,440
The flights are more expensive
than the tickets, so you.

1128
01:01:18,960 --> 01:01:21,000
Yeah, Yeah, yeah.
All right.

1129
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:22,480
Awesome.
Thank you, Matt.

1130
01:01:22,480 --> 01:01:26,840
I I look forward to it.
Thanks my friend, wish you the

1131
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:27,640
best we'll.
See you.

1132
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:30,560
OK, Bye.
That is all for today.

1133
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,720
Thanks so much for tuning in.
There'll be another episode on a

1134
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:35,520
fortnight.
So if you would like to listen

1135
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:38,400
in to the types of conversations
that I have all the time, please

1136
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:40,200
subscribe on your chosen
platform.

1137
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:43,080
Write the show, leave a comment,
whatever you like, share with

1138
01:01:43,080 --> 01:01:45,440
your friends and family.
I'd love for you to spread the

1139
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,280
word about the building's
biology party.

1140
01:01:48,000 --> 01:01:50,360
There's a link in the episode
description where you can head

1141
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:52,960
to a landing page and there are
some show notes there with

1142
01:01:52,960 --> 01:01:56,080
relevant links and a full
transcript of the show as well,

1143
01:01:56,080 --> 01:01:59,160
and also links to my socials.
So if you're not already, I'd

1144
01:01:59,160 --> 01:02:01,760
love for you to follow along
there too as I share lots of

1145
01:02:01,760 --> 01:02:03,760
building science and building
biology tips.

1146
01:02:04,160 --> 01:02:06,800
There's also a contact page
where you can send me an e-mail

1147
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,680
or even a voice message.
So if you've got questions or

1148
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,480
suggestions or guest ideas, I'd
love to hear from you.

1149
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,560
I want to know what you want to
know, so please get in touch

1150
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:17,160
with me.
Thanks again.

1151
01:02:17,160 --> 01:02:20,120
I'll be back in two weeks, so
until then, happy healthy

1152
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:20,520
building.