#18 - Connecting the Dots: A Carpenter’s Journey from Illness to Healthy Homes with Tony Benger

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Hello and welcome to the
Building Biology Party where we

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talk about better buildings to
live and breathe in.

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My name is Jess Gizmet and today
I am joined by Anthony Benger.

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Anthony is a Carpenter in
Melbourne with commitment to

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craftsmanship, building science
and the creation of genuinely

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healthy homes.
But what makes Tony's story

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especially powerful is he's got
personal experience with mould

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illness.
Tony lives with Chronic

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Inflammatory Response Syndrome,
or SERS.

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If you want the acronym.
This is a.

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This is a debilitating condition
triggered by exposure to mold

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and other biotoxins in the built
environment.

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His diagnosis led him to think.
His diagnosis led him to rethink

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not just how he lived, but also
how he works.

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In this conversation we're going
to talk about Tony's journey

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from the challenges of
navigating this illness while

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working to the practical
realities of creating Botox

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mould safe environments.
We chat about the tension

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between conventional practice
and healthy design, and what

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every tradie builder, designer,
architect and homeowner needs to

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start understanding about the
health risks hiding inside our

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homes.
Welcome, Anthony or Tony.

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Which one?
Tony Yeah, thanks, Jess.

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Thanks for having me.
No worries at all.

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So let's start with your
journey.

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I understand that you you've
been to uni.

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And then you did a trade and,
and you have sirs.

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So could you step us through a
little bit about how what, how

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you got to where you are today?
Cool.

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So I had chronic fatigue for
about 20 years, started when I

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was 12 after a sort of emotional
trauma event, kicked it off and

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then I never really got to shake
it.

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So from sort of age 12 to about
30, early 30, I went down the

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chronic fatigue route and
traditional medicine didn't have

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many answers.
Kind of went about my life as

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best I could.
And then in 2016, sort of

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everything came to a head and my
health really crashed.

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So I came back to Australia
after being overseas and decided

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to look into it and see what I
could sort of figure out in that

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process, in that sort of rabbit
hole of what is chronic fatigue.

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Is it real?
A lot of the time people would

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say it was psychosomatic, I was
lazy, or it was a mental

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illness, you know, and you sort
of believe that the bit of the

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time you think, am I crazy?
And you know what's going on?

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No one seems has an answer.
There's no blood test really for

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it.
It's a syndrome.

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It's a cluster of symptoms.
It's really hard to pin down.

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So having that chronic fatigue,
sort of, you know, here's this

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big sort of idea and then
knuckling down into it, there

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were lots of ideas about what
caused it.

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And one of them was the kind of
Sears environmental mold toxins.

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Richie Shoemaker.
He was sort of the guy who

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basically brought it into
medical science.

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I found out I had the HLA gene.
So I was a person who's

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susceptible.
I had the VCs contrast test.

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And so I had probable like
probable sirs.

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There are a couple of other
blood tests, but they were quite

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expensive to get sort of from
the US And it was like, look,

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this is probably it.
So like many people, I found a

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sort of mold free apartment,
which was great.

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And then I got my stuff
remediated.

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And then at the same time I
changed my diet and sort of, as

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you know, diet's a big part of
Sirs and healing the liver and

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the gut, endotoxin and binders
and and all that stuff.

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And in that.
Process of tweaking diet.

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I did carnivore for a while and
it was about two years of sort

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of serious tweaking, and I found
out that I have an allergy to

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rice, which doesn't really make
sense.

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Rice doesn't have gluten, but
there's something in rice that

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for me particularly triggers the
CFS again.

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And if I have it by accident,
Even rice.

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Starch or as a.
Filler in a supplement it'll

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trigger me and three days I am
back to brain fog, fatigue, not

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sleeping, completely different
person and.

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People I know who've seen me,
sort of.

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Have it and then the next day be
a different person.

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Kind of amazed and I don't
understand what's going on.

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I think it has something to do
with the gut connection and Sirs

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and sort of liver not handling
everything and bile and stuff.

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So it's not something to do with
that.

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But at least for me, that's the
one of the crucial things.

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So that was 2020 that I figured
that out.

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I felt amazing, better than I'd
felt in 20 years, and I felt

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like I had myself back.
And so I started my carpentry

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apprenticeship because in the
time that I was sort of sick,

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I'd gone to uni and done
construction management and I'd

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come out and realized that I
knew a lot about the paperwork

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side.
I knew a lot about the theory,

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but I didn't know a lot about
the building.

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And there I was trying to tell
experienced tradesmen how to do

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their job, fresh uni graduate.
And it didn't, it didn't sit, it

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didn't work.
So when I had the opportunity to

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go back after I'd sort of
regained my mental function, my

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physical function, my acuity,
you know, all the things that go

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when you've got CFS or says I
did a carpentry apprenticeship

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so that I could actually learn
how to build.

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And that's been an amazing,
amazing thing.

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I, you know, biased, but I think
it is the best trade and I think

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the best building professionals
are carpenters at some point in

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their journey, whether it's at
the start, whether it's, you

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know, midway through or whatever
it is, they've got that sort of

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carpentry building sort of
background.

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So another another tidbit was I
studied with Geo Vital in 2017.

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So they're an Austrian company
and they deal with non-native

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AMF and sort of geopathic stress
and stuff like that.

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So I had been studying the
healthy homes kind of area, the

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building biology area.
And then when I moved to

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Melbourne a couple of years ago,
I was pleasantly surprised by

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the passive house builders and
the sort of healthy home

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builders that are starting here.
And I'm really, really trying to

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improve the Australian status
quo.

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So it's actually quite an
interesting group of builders

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and professionals who are, you
know, very active on Instagram,

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very active trying to educate
people and say, look, there are

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better ways of doing these
things.

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There is science behind SIRS.
There is science behind building

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science and how our homes
function.

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And there's a better way to
build.

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Like we we have the info.
There are lots of challenges,

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sure, but I.
Think you know my?

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Journey has shaped my approach
of how I build and what I

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appreciate in building and what
I think is right and a bit

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outdated.
And I'm trying to now piece all

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of my history together to bring
healthy homes as sort of an idea

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to the forefront, if that all
makes sense.

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Totally makes sense, and it's
quite the quite the quite

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phenomenal actually to stitch.
All of that together.

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The bit that I like, I mean, I
don't like that you've been

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unwell, of course, but the bit
that I like about this story is

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the bit where you went from
theory to practical.

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I really think that that it's
just such a like connecting up

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the dots between theory and
practical.

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It's part of why I went from
where I was in the theory based

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energy assessment to practical
base blow a door testing passive

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house, what's going on on site
because the theory doesn't mean

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much unless you have a grasp on
the practical or what's actually

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happening inside a building and
what's actually being built.

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So yeah, well, that's you.
And, and to go through all those

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years of study as well, that's,
that must have been just tough

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financially, let alone, you
know, just to go through all of

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that training is quite
phenomenal.

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Yeah, I mean, I was sort of
lucky, I think.

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A lot of people who go through
this as journey, whatever,

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whatever you want to call it,
you know, there's a lot of

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familial breakdown.
There's a lot of destroyed

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lives.
Like it's, it's a pretty dark

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place.
And I'm just very lucky that I

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was able to be supported and
had, you know, whatever was

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helping me to, to get through it
all.

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But it is, it is a massive
financial hit, like the

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remediation process for people
who, you know, they have worked

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their whole lives to get these
houses and then they go and get

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the news that they have to throw
out half the things and they

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can't live in the house they're
in.

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It's a it's a tough situation to
be in.

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Yeah, I, I can imagine.
It's absolutely devastating.

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And I think there's a lot of
people in this space, a lot of

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people, a lot of mole techs, for
example, a lot of healthy home

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consultants.
In fact, most of them that I've

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come across have all come from a
place of personal experience.

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And you know, 25% of the
population have this gene, this

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this DLA gene that you
mentioned.

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And for the rest of us, I don't,
I don't believe I have it.

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I have some weirded monetary
symptoms, but I, I don't know.

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But for the people who don't
have it, it's sort of like, you

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know, that whole is it real
question.

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But those of you who do have it
know without a doubt that it is

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very definitely real.
So yeah, the, the going back to

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the DLA gene, you said you you
found out you have it.

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How did you find out you have
it?

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Because I actually asked my GP
to be tested for it and she

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looked at me blankly and said I
don't know what that is.

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So it's a blood test at the
time, I think.

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I think it was a blood test
actually, maybe it was a saliva

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test, but it I know it had to be
sent off somewhere and the

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doctor I saw was actually one of
only a few mold literate

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doctors.
So I think if you went to the

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vast majority of GPS in
Australia and said I want to be

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tested for this HLA gene, you'd
be met with not much in

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response.
I think the sort of tides are

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shifting and people are sort of
now starting to think about it.

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But yeah, I think you sort of
find a Doctor Who's literate and

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is on your side and and doesn't
think you're crazy and then you

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go from there.
I think that's called a DLR

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gene.
What's it called?

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HLR.
It's HLA.

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I believe it's HLA slash Dr. and
HLA slash something.

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There's I think there's two of
them.

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Did she or something as.
Well, yeah, did she?

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I believe.
Yeah, yeah.

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Is there a list of doctors
anywhere that you know that

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which people can easily research
a doctor in their area?

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I'm not sure the best group that
I was involved in was called

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Toxic Mild Support Australia on
Facebook.

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That's an excellent.
Website.

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Yeah.
So I think there's the website

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now has been fleshed out a lot
more.

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I think Caleb was one of the
administrators who did a lot of

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work on that.
And if you sort of join that

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group and then go through the
posts, you'll be able to find a

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lot of info.
Richie Shoemaker, his stuff's

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great, his books and his his
stuff.

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Mold Lab in Newcastle is who I
used for my air testing and

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Hertz me testing and things like
that.

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David Locke, who was the
director, I believe of that is a

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wealth of knowledge, but I'm not
sure if he's still involved.

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But yeah, it's sort of a network
you get involved in and then

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people are trying to help each
other.

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So unless you sort of get into a
group like Toxic Mold Support

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Australia or contact a building
biologist or something like

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that, you might not get too far.
So it's once you sort of in

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contact with people who really
know this space, then you can

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get in touch with the people you
need to.

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Yeah, OK, cool.
I'll, I will do some research.

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I will find those links and I'll
put them in the show notes and

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I'll see if I can put together a
little bit of a list of

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resources for for anyone
listening.

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So how did with your carpentry
work?

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How did your diagnosis and
personal experience with SIRS

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shape the way you approach
building?

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Because you've been through the,
like I said, the theory of

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construction management and
became a Carpenter on top of

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that, How have you, because
you're not a builder yet, you're

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a tradesman, you're a Carpenter.
So you don't have much control

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over necessarily what goes into
the building or or.

226
00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,440
Tell me a bit about your work
and and how your personal

227
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,120
experience for your onus this
shape will work.

228
00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:38,680
Sure.
So yeah, you're right, I don't

229
00:12:38,680 --> 00:12:41,400
have that much control in the
process.

230
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:45,560
Once I'm sort of on site, the
design decisions have been made,

231
00:12:45,560 --> 00:12:48,800
the architects and the site
teams and everyone's sort of

232
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:49,600
decided.
What's?

233
00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,600
Going to happen.
And so I don't really get a say

234
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,960
in the design process or
material selection or you know

235
00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:02,000
scheduling or you know finishing
your external membrane and sort

236
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,400
of getting watertight before you
bring materials in etcetera,

237
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:07,560
etcetera.
And so there are things that I

238
00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,120
would do differently, but my
experience isn't.

239
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,960
Where it's at to be a builder
yet?

240
00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,240
I think I just try and do what
little I can on site to protect

241
00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:21,560
materials, to keep timber dry,
to keep sort of internal

242
00:13:21,560 --> 00:13:23,600
structures dry, things like
that.

243
00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,680
It's sort of, you know, clean up
sort of sawdust and stuff so

244
00:13:26,680 --> 00:13:29,760
that it doesn't hold moisture
doesn't doesn't hold water.

245
00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:33,240
Do my?
Job as best as I can and sort of

246
00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,800
imagine that I'm the homeowner
and I want people who want to

247
00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,680
seal off penetrations.
You know, if there's a hole in

248
00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:41,640
the building wrap, I'm going to
put tape on it.

249
00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,120
When I see it, I'm not going to
let it.

250
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:45,200
Sort of flap.
The wind, you know, the passive

251
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:50,680
House I think approach to
particularly sort of barriers

252
00:13:50,680 --> 00:13:54,240
and sort of products like
Proclaimer and stuff like that.

253
00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,800
Like that's amazing.
I think your external envelope

254
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,360
getting that dry and watertight
as quickly as possible is one of

255
00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,800
the absolute best things.
So there are lots of little

256
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,840
things I try and do and in some
small ways to to make the

257
00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,360
finished products as healthy as
possible.

258
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:16,000
But I think it is really a sort
of, you know, designers and

259
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:19,360
architects and clients and
people in decision making

260
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,200
positions really need to sort of
prioritize things to get a

261
00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,840
healthy home.
It's sort of if I'm the one sort

262
00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,880
of trying to lead it on sites,
it's it doesn't happen.

263
00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,840
But are there conversations that
happen like, you know, anyone

264
00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,000
can speak up, anyone can say,
hey, have you thought about

265
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,640
this?
So is your workplace a place

266
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,080
where you feel comfortable
sharing your ideas and and are

267
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:46,400
they well received?
They are well received and a lot

268
00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,880
of the guys that I work with
Passive House as part of their

269
00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,720
their repertoire.
So even if even if it's say an

270
00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:59,480
architectural build that might
not have sort of Passive House

271
00:14:59,960 --> 00:15:03,880
components.
Or it's a sort of sort of

272
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,040
regular build.
A lot of the trades and guys on

273
00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,040
site that I work with, we all
taught the same.

274
00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,360
Language and we all.
Really excited about building

275
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,880
better and building properly
and, you know, bringing the best

276
00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:23,640
knowledge to to build what I
find kind of frustrating is the

277
00:15:25,080 --> 00:15:28,400
sort of like trying to talk to
people who are designing these

278
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:29,920
homes and saying hey, there's.
A better way.

279
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:32,360
It's going to cost a little bit
more money, but we think it's

280
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,520
worth it.
And the dollars oftentimes

281
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,760
control what actually happens.
And, you know.

282
00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:43,920
I think it opens up a big
conversation about what we value

283
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,360
in homes in this country, which
is a massive conversation.

284
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,000
I think the conversations
happening, there are people who

285
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,080
are really passionate about it.
The landscape is changing, but.

286
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:58,520
It will take time and you know,
you sort of you want to lead

287
00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,520
people to it, not sort of bully
them into it.

288
00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,480
And so the fact that the
conversations are happening is

289
00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:06,360
great.
I think in Melbourne in

290
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,680
particular, I was surprised how
much there was in healthy

291
00:16:10,680 --> 00:16:12,000
building.
I think the building biology

292
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,200
course is sort of taught from
here.

293
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,360
And so there's good signs that
the conversations we have every

294
00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:19,720
day are slowly going to take
over.

295
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,720
But I think without the sort of
decision makers prioritizing

296
00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:26,040
these things, we'll see a lot
more of the status quo.

297
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:28,280
Yeah, it definitely comes from
the top.

298
00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:31,320
And Speaking of the building
biology course, you mentioned to

299
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:33,280
me a while back that you're
considering doing that too.

300
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:35,520
Yeah, I'd love to.
That I've started.

301
00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:36,880
Is.
That, yeah, I'd love to.

302
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:40,040
I'd love to.
I think SER's is a massive part,

303
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:45,080
but the building biologists are
the best at understanding, you

304
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,680
know, healthy building in
general and all the aspects that

305
00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,160
go into it.
Yeah, What started me off on

306
00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,320
that train was that was the mold
stuff as well.

307
00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,640
But all the other stuff that
that goes along with building,

308
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,600
being a building biologist is,
is fascinating.

309
00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:00,320
And it's that holistic approach
as well.

310
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,920
And having the construction
background that you've got would

311
00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,440
be, and even the construction
management, you know, that

312
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:11,240
experience all put together
would be incredibly valuable to

313
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,560
the industry.
So let us know if you ever go

314
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,480
ahead and do that.
I would love to.

315
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:16,800
It's, it's in the plans for the
future.

316
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,480
There's just.
There's a lot to learn, yeah.

317
00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:25,640
So it'll happen one day, yeah.
There sure is in your We're just

318
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:27,920
talking about the conversations
that you're having and the

319
00:17:27,920 --> 00:17:29,080
people that you're having them
with.

320
00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,360
All of these people are already
on board.

321
00:17:31,360 --> 00:17:33,480
What do you think the biggest
knowledge gaps are in the

322
00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,920
broader industry and when it
comes to environmental illness?

323
00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,800
And what is it you wish
builders, designers, architects,

324
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,360
tradesmen, tradespeople?
What is it that you wish they

325
00:17:43,360 --> 00:17:56,480
understood?
I think, I think the biggest, I

326
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,760
guess mindset shifts that I had
and that I think people need to

327
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:09,080
go through is that your internal
sort of home environment has a

328
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,920
massive impact on your health
and on your life.

329
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:19,640
And it's not a like one off
thing like it's if you can

330
00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:24,200
optimize even your bedroom and
have 8 hours of good restorative

331
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:29,000
sleep in a somewhat natural
environment, your ability to

332
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:34,440
live life as you want to is
phenomenally improved.

333
00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,320
Like the studies about, you
know, improving air quality or

334
00:18:38,360 --> 00:18:41,960
sort of improving natural light
conditions and things like that

335
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,640
and the physiological response
that you can get from it as

336
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:50,480
someone who has gone from being
CFS and being severely limited.

337
00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,480
In what I could do in life and
then.

338
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,520
Going through the experiment of
1 and finding out that this

339
00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,520
stuff matters.
If building professionals

340
00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:05,280
understood that intimately and
then worked from that place to

341
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:05,880
go.
OK.

342
00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:10,440
How do we prioritize healthy
homes like things like sale

343
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:15,160
prices, like how much a home
costs or exotic finishes or

344
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,240
crazy aesthetics?
They're all wonderful, they're

345
00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:23,120
all great.
But if you have a, you know, $10

346
00:19:23,120 --> 00:19:27,800
million moldy house that people
who can't sleep at night in

347
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,760
without getting a respiratory,
you know, post nasal drip or

348
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,560
getting a cough or something
like that, like is it worth it?

349
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,680
And that's and that's a multi
year process.

350
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:43,360
That's a sort of an amazing feat
of architecture or modern

351
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:46,520
building or aesthetics or design
or whatever it is.

352
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:51,360
But at the end of the day, where
physiological beings in nature

353
00:19:51,360 --> 00:19:54,800
and we have to coexist with
nature and if we don't build

354
00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,720
with that in mind, then we end
up making mistakes.

355
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:01,200
We end up with water damaged
buildings.

356
00:20:01,360 --> 00:20:04,520
I think, you know, Richie
Shoemaker in the 2018 government

357
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,920
report on water damaged
buildings in Australia, the

358
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,800
numbers are shocking of how many
even new builds are being

359
00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,480
delivered to clients with water
damage in them.

360
00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,520
And they're not problems that
you can fix.

361
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,640
Easily, everyone argues over
where the water's coming from

362
00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:22,440
and how we're going to stop it
and what way we're going to do

363
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,920
it and how we're going to
remediate the waterproofing or

364
00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,240
how we're going to redo this.
And it's, it's sort of

365
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:35,880
frustrating that we do have the
knowledge, but the execution for

366
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,440
whatever reason, and all the
people involved in that process,

367
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,760
like it's every building is an
idea in someone's head at the

368
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,640
start of it.
And then it goes through this

369
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,440
process and all these people and
all these sort of filters, I

370
00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:49,280
guess.
And people prioritize different

371
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,600
things.
And then we end up with what,

372
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,760
you know, what we prioritize.
And so I think if you knew that

373
00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:02,160
someone's going to live in that
house and someone's going to

374
00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,760
have a life to live and their
life's going to be affected

375
00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,640
positively or negatively by the
design decisions, by the

376
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,880
details, by you doing that
membrane properly, by you doing

377
00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,360
that waterproofing properly, by
you protecting materials when

378
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:22,240
they get delivered to site.
You know, there's, there's lots

379
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,680
of things, but that fundamental
mindset of let's make this house

380
00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,960
healthy, like let's give this
person something that's going to

381
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:36,000
support them physiologically.
I think if that was part of it,

382
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:37,480
it would be a wonderful,
wonderful thing.

383
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,120
But it's if not really, and I
only have that perspective

384
00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:43,640
because of what I went through.
So it's not really fair of me to

385
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:47,680
expect that of other people.
But I would love to see more

386
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,040
people go.
OK, Yeah.

387
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:51,880
Like we believe you.
This is a thing.

388
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,680
Let's make things better.
That'll be awesome.

389
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,440
That would be awesome.
And I, you know, I asked you

390
00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,720
what you thought, so you were
allowed to wish for that.

391
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,480
That's a very nice and very
important thing to wish for.

392
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,520
So let's say there's a builder
listening to this who doesn't

393
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,240
have Sears.
Who you?

394
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,640
It's never been through any
environmental illness.

395
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,600
I'm just going to take us back a
little step to the beginning of

396
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,000
our conversation when we talked
about when your illness kicked

397
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,200
off.
The years and years of not

398
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,640
knowing what was really going
on, suffering, not knowing how

399
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,680
to fix it, figuring out what the
problem was and then fixing it.

400
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,200
Could you take us through
perhaps what a normal day might

401
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:40,720
look like for somebody or not a
normal day, a bad day might look

402
00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:44,840
like for somebody with chronic
fatigue syndrome or with SIRS

403
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,920
because chronic fatigue syndrome
and the brain fog that's

404
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,360
associated with chronic fatigue.
I don't know what chronic

405
00:22:50,360 --> 00:22:52,200
fatigue was like.
I know people who have suffered

406
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:53,440
with it but don't know what it
is.

407
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:55,880
And imagine you're a lot of
people out there who also don't.

408
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,200
So if you could please just
paint a picture for us as to

409
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,760
what that looks like so that we
can try and communicate the

410
00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,600
importance of getting this
right.

411
00:23:12,590 --> 00:23:16,990
I think everyone is experience
of it is different.

412
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:19,990
The one.
The one quote that's always

413
00:23:19,990 --> 00:23:24,230
stuck with me that would
probably illustrate it is that

414
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:27,950
the healthy person has 100
wishes, 100 dreams.

415
00:23:28,950 --> 00:23:34,240
The sick person has one.
And I remember I was in an

416
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,200
insight audience inside the SBS
program and I had chronic

417
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,400
fatigue people there.
And there was AI remember a

418
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:47,280
young girl, like she was maybe
25 and she was in a nursing home

419
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:55,120
because she just couldn't do
anything, You know, spending the

420
00:23:55,120 --> 00:23:59,280
entire day in bed and barely
having the energy to have a

421
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,200
shower.
I'm like, that's that can be a

422
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,160
bad normal day for someone with
chronic feet.

423
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:10,160
Now, I was never that bad
consistently, consistently.

424
00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,600
I had my moments, you know,
maybe a few hours out of bed.

425
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,640
And I would try and do some
life, but yeah.

426
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,720
It's worse.
It's it's not bad, you know,

427
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,520
your brain doesn't work, your
body doesn't work.

428
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:28,600
You can't hold down a job in
most cases.

429
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,800
Or maybe you're working part
time or whatever it is and it's

430
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,320
a really dark place.
Like the, the chronic fatigue

431
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:36,360
syndrome isn't, isn't a blood
test.

432
00:24:36,360 --> 00:24:41,040
It's a syndrome of things.
And the two areas that are quite

433
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:45,040
common in it are, you know,
mental health issues and a lot

434
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:51,600
of sort of gut digestive issues,
you know, So I think that's a

435
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,520
pretty bleak answer for you, but
it is a pretty bleak condition.

436
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,360
And for a long time, it wasn't
recognized.

437
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,960
Like, it was sort of a, you
know, psychosomatic thing.

438
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:07,720
So chronic fatigue is now not if
they recognized.

439
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:10,400
I think so, yeah.
I'm pretty sure, yeah.

440
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,000
Yeah.
So it's a syndrome in the same

441
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,840
way that says syndrome.
So it's an umbrella term for a

442
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,360
cluster of symptoms.
Yeah, Yeah.

443
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:25,720
Is that right?
And you eventually connected the

444
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:31,120
dots between your chronic
fatigue and says, did you notice

445
00:25:31,120 --> 00:25:33,480
any mold in the buildings that
you were living in in that 20

446
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,520
years?
Looking back, yes, I was

447
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:41,200
actually in a rental.
It was like a two-story brick

448
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:48,320
veneer, the chip rock, typical
kind of house and I did the the

449
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,440
test for it.
That hurts me, I think.

450
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,320
And it came back and it was
just, you know, that.

451
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,440
Hurts me.
What's that Hurts me Hurts.

452
00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,480
Me.
Hurts me.

453
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,280
Hurts me.
Yeah, it does something.

454
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:07,400
HERTSMII think it's an index of
a few of the most widely known

455
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,840
problematic molds.
So Aspadillus is one of them.

456
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,480
I can't remember the other few,
but it's basically like here

457
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,120
molds we know that cause issues
like black mold and notorious

458
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:22,560
black mold is one of them.
Saggy Buttress.

459
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,920
That's it.
And this, this place came back

460
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,960
as just water damaged.
It was like, you know, right?

461
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,560
Right.
And so I remember going there,

462
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,400
but not.
Obviously water damaged, not

463
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,880
obviously you couldn't see any
water damage if.

464
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,560
You don't if you don't know what
to look for and I didn't at that

465
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:43,840
time you wouldn't think it.
But now thinking about it was

466
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,400
like, you know, a light frame
construction second story

467
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:49,880
bathroom waterproofing was
probably.

468
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:53,400
Very average even when it was
installed, let alone five years

469
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,840
later.
So that came back as sort of

470
00:26:56,120 --> 00:26:58,720
positive and the advice was look
like you're not going to get

471
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:01,760
well in this environment like no
matter how many binders you take

472
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:04,800
or no matter how many, how many
supplements you take, you're not

473
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,240
going to be able to excrete
those toxins that you're

474
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,360
ingesting, inhaling.
So just.

475
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:11,400
You know.
Every day 4/7.

476
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,000
Well, you know, you're sleeping
there, you're living there,

477
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:18,000
you're breathing there.
And those, those toxins are very

478
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,120
pervasive.
Like they've been on this earth

479
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:23,240
as long as as long as we have,
you know, like it's not like

480
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:25,680
they just knew and we're just
discovering them.

481
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,360
They've they've coexisted with
us for a long time.

482
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:32,880
And there are lots of historical
references to how bad mold is.

483
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,520
I think there's one in the Bible
about move out basically.

484
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,480
So anyway, so that that rental
that I was in the tests came

485
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,560
back and so I was able to move
into an apartment that I knew

486
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,600
was.
Safe basically because of how it

487
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,200
was built.
Because there was no dip rock,

488
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:50,360
it was N facing lots of sun.
There was ventilation in the

489
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:52,280
wall cavity.
Bathroom was like a 60s

490
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:53,400
bathroom.
So no dip rock.

491
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,040
You know, so yeah.
No dip rock, meaning no porous

492
00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:00,360
materials you had.
I think you mentioned to me it

493
00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:02,520
was a double brick.
The one I moved into, yeah,

494
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,200
double brick.
So the sort of classic 6 pack

495
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,600
apartments and that are sort of
double brick great in my opinion

496
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,280
because it means that there's no
risk of multi dip rock.

497
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,120
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I'm thinking about all the

498
00:28:16,120 --> 00:28:18,560
materials that we use to build
houses now.

499
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,520
It's like particularly Deep Rock
sort of building Petri dishes,

500
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:26,440
aren't we?
So I have a nickname for those

501
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:32,000
materials and they're gremlins
because they are sort of

502
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,280
artificially made, reduced to a
moisture content and then in

503
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,400
there sort of state that they're
delivered to and made, they're

504
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:41,760
kind of OK.
Like they're all right.

505
00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:45,280
Like there's a VOC question,
there's other questions, but

506
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,760
from a sort of cellulose and
materials, they're kind of OK.

507
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,720
But then once they get wet, like
wet you proc, you can't

508
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:56,440
remediate wet was always.
This is a reference to the 1980s

509
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,560
movie, right?
Yeah, sorry.

510
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,680
Yeah.
So the 1980s movie Gremlins.

511
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:03,040
Those of us who are old enough
to understand their reference,

512
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:05,600
I'll put a picture on the
screen.

513
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,800
They're like, that's my nickname
for them because you know, as

514
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,880
you know, you can't remediate a
lot of things in a water damaged

515
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,040
building.
And a lot of them are these,

516
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,480
these products which, you know,
they enable us to build faster

517
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,040
and, and quicker.
And I think there's a definitely

518
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:23,480
a massive place for them.
It's just understanding what

519
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,400
their weaknesses are and
understanding how to protect

520
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,600
them and how to build with them.
It's time for a quick sponsor

521
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:34,280
shout out today's episode of the
Building Psychology Poddy.

522
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:35,920
Is.
Proudly brought to you by our

523
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,200
amazing sponsors in Euro
Builders and Climate Shore.

524
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,160
A huge thank you to these
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525
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,120
supporting the podcast and
helping us spread the word about

526
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:45,600
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527
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,160
Your support makes this podcast
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528
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,480
Please head over to their
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529
00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:53,680
pages.
OK, so.

530
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,960
What's next for you?
What's next for you in terms of

531
00:29:56,960 --> 00:30:00,680
your education or your
professional trajectory?

532
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,560
So carpentry is the focus.
Last year I did a waterproofing

533
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,480
set 3, and they did an
engineering fabrication set too,

534
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,320
which were great.
But I think it takes sort of 10

535
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,920
years to be a good residential
Carpenter.

536
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,880
So I've still got a while to go
in that.

537
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,920
That's the next few years.
Building biology, like I would

538
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,000
love to know more.
I would love to know, learn

539
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,280
particularly from the Europeans,
but the building biology course

540
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,040
here in Australia would be an
excellent stepping stone and

541
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:29,600
maybe a building sort of
designer.

542
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,840
Like I said, I think the
designers, if you've got a great

543
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:35,280
design and you've got great sort
of trades and builders and

544
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,280
everything, it can be an
incredible experience.

545
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:42,080
If you're starting with a design
that doesn't quite sort of think

546
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:44,360
of all these things and then
there's a lot of tathing issues

547
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,360
in trying to sort of get it to
work out.

548
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,360
So something to do with building
design and then maybe maybe be a

549
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,880
builder myself eventually.
I think being a builder now is

550
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,360
very, very hard.
There's a lot of stresses.

551
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:02,040
There's a lot of abdication of
responsibility from people in

552
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,920
the building industry and that
responsibility ending up on the

553
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,560
builder.
And if they're the builder and

554
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,720
they've know they're sort of and
they've, they've sort of been

555
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,400
able to navigate it and
understand all the liability and

556
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,680
all that, then it can be great.
But I think a lot of builders

557
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,960
take on what they think is one
thing and then it turns into

558
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,440
another based.
So I'm not sure I'll if or when

559
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,760
I'd be a builder, but mainly the
sort of design and building

560
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:29,920
biology avenues would be great
We're.

561
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,520
Going to be the most qualified
construction professional in

562
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:38,480
Australia.
All right, then you have to

563
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:40,720
learn how to do global testing
and then you'll cover

564
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:42,040
everything.
Yeah.

565
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,200
Yeah, I do.
I really enjoy the blower door

566
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,320
test on site because it's, it's
a really good way of showing

567
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,240
people what's going on.
Like you haven't, you have a

568
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,520
number there and you say, hey,
you see all this stuff around

569
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:54,840
you, this is what we're trying
to get to.

570
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:58,200
This is our, you know, number
that we're trying to get to.

571
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,520
And you know, you have the, the
fog tests and then you, I've

572
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,080
been there, I've been on site
when there's bad the blower door

573
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,640
test and you've been trying to
figure out the holes and oh,

574
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,920
there's a hole here in this sort
of steel detail and there's a

575
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,400
stall under here.
And this window wasn't sealed.

576
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,800
And you try and get that number
down and down and down.

577
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,320
And it's, it's one of the most
illustrative aspects of the

578
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:26,240
entire build is we're creating
this internal space and we're

579
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,840
using air to show you what's
going on with it.

580
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:30,080
So I could, I think they're
great.

581
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:33,120
I think they're awesome.
Yeah, well, I mean, all of these

582
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:35,080
things, you know, they're all
invisible.

583
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,520
The air tightness, even the mold
can be invisible.

584
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:41,240
The VOC is in the air, CO2, it's
all invisible.

585
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,680
Quantifying all of that stuff
is, is just, it's just

586
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,600
fascinating the numbers game
and, and the information that

587
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,400
those numbers can give you.
It's just fascinating when

588
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,160
you're really, when you really
care about your performance.

589
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,560
Definitely.
You work with builders who are

590
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:02,920
already converted.
Have you worked with any

591
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,960
tradesmen or builders who
weren't?

592
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:09,640
Yeah.
And it's it's a sort of a level

593
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,000
of conversion.
I think there are levels to

594
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:17,440
building biology.
And, you know, having a

595
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:21,720
understanding of air tightness
is great, but then the sort of

596
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,360
next level of that is, OK, well,
if we're going to build

597
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,880
airtight, then we need to have
mechanical ventilation.

598
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,760
Then we need to have sort of an
understanding of what materials

599
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,880
are going in there so that the
off gassing profile is OK.

600
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:42,920
And so I think the vast majority
of the industry doesn't have the

601
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,000
exposure to these principles and
these ideas.

602
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,240
And so, you know, they're not
going to know what they've never

603
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,680
come across or what no one's
ever introduced them to.

604
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,240
And then, you know, clients as
well.

605
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,480
So you know, a client comes to
you and they're sort of the boss

606
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,480
in in what they want and you can
guide them, but they're sort of

607
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,280
idea of what they want at the
end of the day is, is really

608
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,800
going to affect how that that
builds out.

609
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:09,320
So I think all those aspects
mean that there are a lot of

610
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,000
builders and they they run the
gamut.

611
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,760
There are some that are really,
really amazing and pushing the

612
00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:16,920
boundaries and getting into sort
of healthy homes and really

613
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:18,199
thinking how can we do this
better?

614
00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:20,679
It's great.
But this sort of stock standard

615
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,280
builder I think has a way to go
to understand the healthy homes

616
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:28,320
sort of angle.
Or building biology sort of

617
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,080
doctrine.
Yeah.

618
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,719
So you're obviously somebody who
really loves to learn and you

619
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:36,600
you search out all of that
learning.

620
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,040
What do you, I think one of the
biggest gaps in the industry is

621
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,360
how all of the changes in the
building codes and Australian

622
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,000
standards and all of those
actually communicated to trades.

623
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,800
Not every, not every, you know,
there are a lot of trades who

624
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:56,199
didn't finish high school or
they don't, they're not readers.

625
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,560
They, they work with their hands
because they're, they're good

626
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,120
with their hands.
How do you think, what do you

627
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,360
think that could be done to
better improve that

628
00:35:03,360 --> 00:35:06,160
communication or to better equip
trades and builders with the

629
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,640
knowledge they need?
Because as you said, you know,

630
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,520
it's clients have said ideas in
their minds about how they want

631
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,200
the house to be.
And if they, if they make a

632
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,440
decision that puts the builder
who doesn't necessarily

633
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,760
understand the risks that
they're building into the house

634
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,200
because of that changing
decision about the client, it's

635
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,320
not their fault, but they, they,
they didn't have the, you don't

636
00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,960
know what you don't know.
So my question is, what is your

637
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,920
opinion or thoughts on how that
education can be better spread

638
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:38,720
around to the trades?
It's a.

639
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,160
It's a hard problem to solve.
There's a.

640
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,160
There's a couple of points that
I think I should address. 1 is I

641
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,120
did my waterproofing certificate
and we had the Australian

642
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:55,040
Standards as our sort of Bible
of what to look at.

643
00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:00,400
And there's a lot of jargon and
a lot of legalese in those

644
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,440
standards that isn't readily
pickupable.

645
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:08,680
That's I don't know if it's a
word readily apparent to someone

646
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,440
who didn't finish high school.
Now they're amazing with their

647
00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:15,000
hands and they can produce
amazing stuff, but if you give

648
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:20,000
them a one page sort of legalese
on maybe a water stop detail.

649
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:22,200
Yeah.
How are they going to learn

650
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,280
that?
So the app that I really, really

651
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:30,160
like is called Tools and it
visually shows the NCC, sort of

652
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,680
the old BCA, you know, the
Australian standards and things

653
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,600
into a radio model.
And I've been telling everyone

654
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,160
about this app and saying, look,
if you want to convey what you

655
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:44,800
want to show an image, like go
into this app, open it up and

656
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,760
say this is what I want.
I want minimum whatever or I

657
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:52,880
want this fall or I want this.
And so to teach the trades to

658
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,240
produce better details, use
something like that.

659
00:36:55,240 --> 00:36:58,280
That's going to give them the
detail, Draw Something for them.

660
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,680
A lot of guys won't take that
advice, but the guys who want to

661
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,200
improve or want to do better
will take that training and

662
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:07,960
they'll, and they'll run with it
and they'll become better and

663
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,320
you'll get a better result.
You know, that's one aspect of

664
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:13,840
it.
Another aspect of everything is

665
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,720
make education easier.
The Australian standards

666
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,600
shouldn't cost an arm and a leg.
It shouldn't cost you, it

667
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,720
shouldn't cost you 2 grand to
get all your documents to be a

668
00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:27,960
builder shouldn't.
And then the changes and then

669
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,640
they update them and then you
get the new one and all these

670
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:36,200
costs then you know, they're a
barrier to entry for learning.

671
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:40,400
Like if we want the builders to
be better, help them, you know,

672
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,560
help them back all the all these
things about odd, you know,

673
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,760
builder goes bust.
It's like some of them both go

674
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,280
bust because they deserved it.
They didn't understand the

675
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:51,680
business.
They got themselves in too much

676
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,480
trouble.
They under quoted whatever it

677
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,120
was that that's a large part of
it.

678
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:57,880
But a large part of it is that
it's become a really, really

679
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:00,600
hard thing to execute
successfully.

680
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:04,000
And the guys who go into it
aren't usually from highly

681
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,640
educated backgrounds.
Like it's not really, it

682
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,280
doesn't.
Builder isn't the highest, I

683
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,360
guess profession in Australia.
You know, when I was at school

684
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,800
and when I was going through
doing a trade, becoming a

685
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:21,600
builder wasn't really something
that you aspired to unless you

686
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:23,160
knew that that's what you wanted
to do.

687
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,240
It wasn't.
You could be a builder and you

688
00:38:25,240 --> 00:38:27,680
could have a great life and you
could build amazing things.

689
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,320
So help the people who are in
that position of trying to

690
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,120
deliver the homes, you know,
make the Australian Standards

691
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:38,640
free, help them get educated.
There are a lot of really

692
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:43,080
hungry, really clued on builders
who want to do better and they

693
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,120
have a hard time doing it
because it's really hard to get

694
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:47,640
educated.
It's really hard to get help.

695
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,480
It's a really hard profession to
excel in, you know, and, and

696
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,600
that's just kind of the nature
of it in, in this day and age.

697
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:59,240
So, you know, helping everyone
to from the tradesmen up to the

698
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:03,680
designers, everyone involved, if
there's a focus on education and

699
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,520
helping them to succeed, that'd
be great.

700
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,080
That'd be awesome.
Such as builders though, Like I

701
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,720
know plenty of architects who
don't understand, you know, the

702
00:39:13,720 --> 00:39:15,440
code, the code building code
changes.

703
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,000
That's a tertiary.
Degree.

704
00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:20,040
I know plenty of trades.
Who could design vetted details

705
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,360
in some architects?
100.

706
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,600
Percent, you know, I don't think
to architects.

707
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,080
No disrespect to architects,
like aesthetically, no.

708
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,920
Like the stuff they can't was is
incredible, but a lot of it just

709
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:32,840
doesn't work in practicality
and.

710
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,680
And is that theory and practice
void again?

711
00:39:36,720 --> 00:39:38,960
But I'm really glad you put you
you brought up the tools app

712
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:41,680
because this app, I can't
believe the building code wasn't

713
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,480
drawn in pictures from the very
beginning.

714
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:48,000
And I actually think that this
app, it seems to be it's

715
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:49,760
growing, but it's growing
slowly.

716
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,320
And I don't understand why
because if you give, I don't

717
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:55,520
understand why it's not growing
a lot more quickly because if

718
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,240
you give, he asked.
I work with a bunch of builders

719
00:39:58,240 --> 00:40:01,080
and you ask them a question
about how a building goes

720
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,240
together and they'll get out a
pencil and they'll draw it for

721
00:40:03,240 --> 00:40:05,080
you.
But here's this and here's that,

722
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:06,920
and that's where the flashing
goes and blah, blah, blah, and

723
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,680
they're all very visual,
practical people.

724
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,600
So why is the?
Why is the documentation written

725
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,520
like it's in Swahili?
You know.

726
00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:22,240
It just doesn't make any sense.
I think it's a tool in, you

727
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:26,440
know, dispute litigation.
So you need a clause, you need

728
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:29,000
something that you can cite as
evidence and there are some

729
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:33,320
pictures and drawings in the
standards, but not not to the

730
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,680
level that tools does it.
And so I think they did the

731
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:40,000
Australian standards in the the
sort of literature is serving

732
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,680
one purpose and it doesn't
really translate to the to the

733
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,280
trades on site.
And I think tools is slowly

734
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,360
growing like you're saying,
because it is such a good

735
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:54,600
product and I've seen it get
better and better sort of in the

736
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:59,280
last couple of years when I was
doing my my cert three training,

737
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,880
like we had the Australian
standards and then I had tools

738
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,160
and all I had to do was look at
tools and then cross reference

739
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:06,720
to the legal aids and it all
made sense.

740
00:41:06,720 --> 00:41:08,240
I was like, cool.
Like that's what they're talking

741
00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:09,200
about.
That's what they're talking

742
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:09,800
about.
Perfect.

743
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:11,760
Like.
It's got all the all the code

744
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,080
references in there like it's
got the courses all in there.

745
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,120
Yeah.
It's right there.

746
00:41:18,720 --> 00:41:20,800
So if you're listening and you
haven't heard of the tools app

747
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,840
and you're a tradition or a
builder who struggles keeping up

748
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:25,600
with the building code changes,
go and have a look.

749
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,720
Go and have a look.
Google tools that go to the link

750
00:41:27,720 --> 00:41:31,440
in the show notes and it's a
paid subscription but I think

751
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:33,640
that's sweating gold.
No.

752
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,760
Do you come across anybody in
your work or in your life that

753
00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:40,280
you think might have mild
illness?

754
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,120
And if you do, what do you say
to them?

755
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:50,960
All the time you can.
There's that saying of you can

756
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,040
lead a horse to water, but you
can't make them drink.

757
00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,920
When I found out about Sirs and
when I started understanding the

758
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,560
sort of profound implications of
your home environment and the

759
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:04,400
air quality and all that, I
started telling everyone and

760
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,000
saying, I can't believe it and
you must listen to me and try to

761
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,640
sort of shout it, I guess.
And it didn't really work.

762
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:17,000
And I think that mindset shift
is a hard one for a lot of

763
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,360
people to go through.
So I see people, you know,

764
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:23,520
people I know very well, people
I've known for years, people

765
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,360
I've known basically my whole
life.

766
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,600
And I say, look like this is a
potential thing that can affect

767
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:30,840
you.
And I, you know, I think you

768
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:33,400
should look into it.
And these people have, you know,

769
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:37,400
fatigue and brain fog and
respiratory symptoms and sort of

770
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,800
recurrent issues like when your
immune system goes, you know,

771
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,840
into a state like that, it shows
up in lots of different ways.

772
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,600
But you sort of see like the
bags under their eyes and the

773
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,360
tire.
No, I haven't been sleeping.

774
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:55,120
And, you know, like the house is
this or, or whatever it is.

775
00:42:55,120 --> 00:43:01,760
And so I just try and open up
that sort of question mark of,

776
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:06,080
OK, is, is my house part of it?
You know, is that something I

777
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:11,320
should be looking at?
But I find a lot of people are

778
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,280
very hesitant to spend even the
money on a building biologist or

779
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:18,360
a sort of a test.
It's like, you know, OK, so pay

780
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,560
someone a little bit of money to
come in and just test your

781
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:23,200
house.
Like, that's it.

782
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:24,360
They're not going to destroy
anything.

783
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:25,720
They're not going to take
anything apart.

784
00:43:25,720 --> 00:43:27,600
They're just going to give you
some advice.

785
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:32,840
And they all sort of push back.
And I think, I don't know

786
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,160
exactly what it is, but they
just haven't connected the dots

787
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,520
in their head yet.
And so I think all these people

788
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,760
that I see that are having those
issues, I try and tell them my

789
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:45,720
story.
I try and answer their

790
00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:47,840
questions.
I try and plant the seed of

791
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,480
maybe this.
But it's such a foreign concept

792
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,920
that illness and your home
environment are connected that

793
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:58,480
it just doesn't land for a lot
of them.

794
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,840
And unfortunately, I think, you
know, it takes a really painful

795
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,920
situation or a really aware
person or sort of open minded

796
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,760
sort of person to entertain the
idea and go, OK, well, maybe,

797
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,640
you know, I should try this.
I mean, my myself, I came from a

798
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:20,360
sort of medical family.
And so I tried so many

799
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,000
conventional things and so many
angles and I did all these

800
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,600
things.
And, you know, it took me a long

801
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,000
time to start connecting the
dots.

802
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:34,280
So to those people, I sort of
just try and nudge them and sort

803
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,080
of lead by example.
I think that's what you can kind

804
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:39,560
of do.
And then when they're ready or

805
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,520
desperate or, you know, they've
exhausted all other options,

806
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,360
then they sort of are more open
to it.

807
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,280
I have a couple of people in
mind right now who have had

808
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:51,880
these very same conversations
here.

809
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:59,280
Excuse me, One of which probably
doesn't take it seriously or

810
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:01,440
seriously enough to actually act
on what I've told her.

811
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,160
And the other one who is
absolutely bamboozled by the

812
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,040
cost of getting tests and seeing
a functional medicine doctor.

813
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,800
And, and you know, all of the
medicines that might go along

814
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,240
with the, you know, the testing.
It's, you know, I asked you

815
00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:19,520
before about your pathway in
discovering your, your own

816
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:22,120
susceptibility to the biotoxins
involved.

817
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:26,240
Because I'm trying somehow, and
I'm sure other people have done

818
00:45:26,240 --> 00:45:29,480
this, but I'm trying somehow for
anyone who comes across this

819
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:36,200
procast or any of my work to
break down that resistance, like

820
00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:39,720
somehow make it easier.
This is how you get, get

821
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,880
medically diagnosed.
This is how you test your house.

822
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,920
These are the people who can do
it like step by step and I'm

823
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,880
trying to get together people
who can help me kind of kind of

824
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,200
do that.
But yeah, that resistance to the

825
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,880
idea, just like the resistance
to, you know, any of the

826
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,840
concepts that I talk about air
tightness in my daily work.

827
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:05,720
You know, it's you don't know
what you don't know and once you

828
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:09,200
know, you can't unknown.
And so I'm trying to.

829
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,000
Break changes.
Yeah, and I'm trying to break

830
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:16,600
down that that point between not
knowing and knowing to open up,

831
00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:22,600
open up that exploratory pathway
for people to maybe, maybe, just

832
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,560
maybe find, find a solution to
to what's going on.

833
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:33,800
Because it's, you know, like you
said, the family breakdowns and

834
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,800
the mental health struggles.
It's not just physical health,

835
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,360
it's it's can't work, can't take
care of the children.

836
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:47,320
What the heck is wrong with me?
Am I dying, You know, mood

837
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:51,120
disruption in kids.
And, you know, who knows if any

838
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,160
of this stuff is actually, you
know, if it's related.

839
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,080
It just, yeah.
I just wish there was an easy

840
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:04,640
way to connect those dots.
It's a hard, it's a hard

841
00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:06,320
landscape to wrap your head
around.

842
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,040
Like to connect, to connect the
dots in your head is one thing,

843
00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:19,000
and then to go through the
process is another.

844
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:28,240
And what's a really, what can be
a really, what's the word, I

845
00:47:28,240 --> 00:47:33,320
guess problematic part of it is
that say you're a family and one

846
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:37,320
of the parents has the mold gene
and is susceptible and another

847
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:40,560
parent isn't and is sleeping in
exactly the same environment.

848
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:43,840
And they're like, what are you
talking about?

849
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,200
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And then, you know, because it's

850
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:53,080
a syndrome and it's sort of
hard, you know, not well

851
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,280
understood by the vast majority
of GPS and not really part of

852
00:47:56,280 --> 00:48:02,200
the landscape, that one sort of
parent might go to their circle

853
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:05,440
and their circle reinforces that
no, it's not an issue.

854
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,200
And then this person goes onto
the Internet and finds out, yes,

855
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,200
it is an issue.
And there's this fracture that

856
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:16,480
occurs between those two people.
And so not only fighting against

857
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:20,480
an illness which is draining you
of all your energy, of all your

858
00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:23,960
mental capacity, maybe you've
got two hours of brain, brain

859
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,480
power in a day and that's all
you've got.

860
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,520
And you're meeting up against
this, this resistance because

861
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,760
it's not part of the
conversation and because people

862
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:35,360
don't connect the dots.
And so that that toxic mould

863
00:48:35,360 --> 00:48:38,520
support is great.
There's lots of people on there

864
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,960
who've sort of seen the light at
the end of the tunnel and have

865
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,960
gone through the process and
said, look like just Chuck out

866
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,120
that house.
Like I know you paid a lot of

867
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,200
money for it and you're attached
to it, but unfortunately just

868
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:52,840
just Chuck it out.
And that's a hard thing to

869
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,360
navigate.
It's just one of the hard things

870
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,440
to navigate.
But I think having a

871
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,960
conversation about it and
understanding it and then

872
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:01,960
connecting the dots and with the
information that you're putting

873
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:05,720
out there, being connected to
people who've been through it

874
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,640
and can guide you is massive.
Because if you're getting

875
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,840
resistance from everyone in your
circle that's saying, no, it

876
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,760
isn't an issue or we don't
understand or go and go see a

877
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:21,640
psychiatrist, you know, go, go
and get, go and get an SSRI

878
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,960
because you're, you know, this,
whatever that's.

879
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,920
An SSRI.
Selective serotonin reuptake

880
00:49:29,920 --> 00:49:32,440
inhibitor.
It's one of the first line of

881
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:36,320
like drugs, basically.
For mild illness.

882
00:49:36,640 --> 00:49:38,840
Depression.
OK.

883
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:43,640
Like chronic fatigue, like
although all the mental health

884
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,480
sort of stuff goes along with
chronic fatigue hand in hand.

885
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,120
But yeah, like, you know, you're
crazy or go get drugged up.

886
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,560
And so maybe there there is a
component of that, but at least

887
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,400
look at the mold, at least get
it addressed.

888
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,960
Get a, get a mold test, you
know, a few 100 bucks and you

889
00:50:02,960 --> 00:50:06,560
can get a Hertz me or an Army
test done and it'll start you on

890
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,840
the process of going, OK, maybe
this is something like maybe

891
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:14,120
this is something that we can
control that will affect the

892
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,840
health of everyone in the house.
I mean, even if you're not mold

893
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:21,360
susceptible, having that
biotoxin in the environment is

894
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:24,040
having a deleterious effect on
your health.

895
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,400
Like people can live in these
moldy environments and be

896
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,080
genetically susceptible, but
then it's a event or a

897
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,040
culmination of things or, you
know, a bunch of things all

898
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:39,840
together that then tip them over
and they're, they're sort of

899
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:42,800
scales tip over.
And that's the, the straw that

900
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:47,560
breaks the camel's back.
And so you're doing everyone in

901
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,920
the house a favor, even if
they're not genetically

902
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:53,560
susceptible, by improving the
air quality, by sleeping better,

903
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:57,000
getting better oxygenation, by
getting a proper night's sleep.

904
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:58,840
Like the amount of people that
don't get a proper night's

905
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,760
sleep.
Think of air quality.

906
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,240
You know that?
And that's just one aspect of

907
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:09,040
healthy building like the Sirs.
Yeah, you know, yeah.

908
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:11,960
Sorry, sorry to interrupt you by
well, it's just in there.

909
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,120
It's.
It's a starting point to the

910
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:19,280
whole thing, like I think the
sirs understanding sirs and how

911
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,160
your body is affected by the
environment you live in then

912
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,280
opens up the whole gamut of
building biology of all the

913
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:31,560
other things like, you know,
your light, your water, your the

914
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:33,720
materials you use, all these
things.

915
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:35,800
Like there's, there's lots as
you know, like in the building

916
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:39,080
biology realm.
It's it's a lot, but just start

917
00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,680
with something.
Start with a, a mold test, start

918
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,920
with a dust swab that hurts me,
hurts me for me.

919
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:49,200
Whatever you want to get.
You can have control of your

920
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:51,960
health by having control of your
home environment.

921
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:56,200
You know, I know this is sort of
a building industry podcast, but

922
00:51:56,200 --> 00:52:01,080
anyone who's at home, like you
don't need approval from someone

923
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,960
to just start researching it and
start going OK, Like maybe if I

924
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:06,960
improve the air quality in my
bedroom, I'll sleep better.

925
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:10,360
Yeah, there's lots, lots of
marketing around meditation and

926
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:16,480
sleep apps and, you know, ways
to to soothe yourself to go to

927
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:21,120
sleep because there's a lot of
insomnia issues around you don't

928
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,080
ever really feel anything about
about the quality there in your

929
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,720
bedroom to help you sleep.
Not really.

930
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,160
Or, or anything else that could
be coming out of the walls.

931
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,200
It's it's not those tops aren't
connected.

932
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,840
So, yeah, thank you very much
for your input on that.

933
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:40,560
I have one last question I asked
all of my guests, and that is,

934
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:42,680
out of everything that you've
learned and everything that

935
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,960
you've experienced in your
career in life today, what is

936
00:52:46,960 --> 00:52:49,040
the one thing that you would
like people to know?

937
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:54,760
A lot of health is kind of
outsourced and I, I followed

938
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,200
that path for a long time.
It was like, OK, I want to be

939
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,760
healthy.
Let me, you know, get this

940
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:03,240
person or, or go see this doctor
or whatever it is.

941
00:53:03,240 --> 00:53:06,960
Where you spend your life most
of the time is your, your house.

942
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:14,000
Start owning that area and
optimizing it for health and you

943
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,560
will see an incredible return on
investment.

944
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:21,360
I don't think it's possible to
accurately quantify that over a

945
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,880
lifetime over the different
people who are in the house,

946
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:28,160
especially kids.
Like you get one shot really at

947
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:32,440
child sort of development.
And I know I'm not a parent

948
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,720
myself, but I know parents who
say they would do anything for

949
00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:39,720
their kids.
And if you can start to connect

950
00:53:39,720 --> 00:53:42,880
the dots of time where you live
in your health and sort of start

951
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,000
to go down the rabbit hole a
little bit, you'll find that

952
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,000
there is lots and lots and lots
that you can do.

953
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,720
Now it's the Internet.
So there's lots of conflicting

954
00:53:50,720 --> 00:53:54,240
opinions and there's lots of
debate and it's often

955
00:53:54,240 --> 00:53:59,920
overwhelming to navigate.
But coming from someone who was.

956
00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:06,520
Sick the cents on the dollar
that you would pay to improve

957
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:13,080
your environment you would like
it doesn't compare to how much

958
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,320
you would pay to try and get
your life back once it's taken

959
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:19,320
away from you.
Like again, like a healthy

960
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,360
person has 100 wishes and a sick
person has 1.

961
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,880
And I would just love people to
understand that your home

962
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,200
environment has a huge impact on
how you show up in life.

963
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,640
Like if there's a version of you
that wants to be a certain way

964
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:39,840
in life, then making your home
support you in that because you

965
00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:43,680
are a natural being, you're a
physiological entity and you

966
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:46,360
live in nature.
You can't live against nature

967
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:49,280
and expect to thrive.
Start with your home.

968
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,600
Like you buy things for your
home all the time.

969
00:54:52,880 --> 00:54:57,280
Think about what goes into those
products and what they're going

970
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,400
to do to you and whether that's
supporting your health.

971
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:02,200
We're going to take away from
it.

972
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:05,480
Like money isn't the only value
in this equation.

973
00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:08,800
Yes, you know, it's a necessity
to understand the the dollars

974
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,280
and cents of it.
But when you look at how you

975
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,240
build your homes, you know what
things you put in them, the

976
00:55:15,240 --> 00:55:19,320
environment that you put your
body through and your relatives

977
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:23,240
and your family through day in,
day out, like while you're

978
00:55:23,240 --> 00:55:26,560
asleep.
If you can have a nice bedroom

979
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,240
that gives you restorative
sleep, your quality of life will

980
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:32,640
dramatically change.
And that's just one part of the

981
00:55:32,640 --> 00:55:35,440
home.
So I think that's it.

982
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:40,960
I think connect the dots between
where you live and how you show

983
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,680
up in life, healthy or not, and
the true cost of of being sick,

984
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:52,240
not just in dollars, but in life
lost and start to go down that

985
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:55,960
rabbit hole like it is.
It is hard and it's not easy.

986
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,080
And the vast majority of
professionals in, you know, the

987
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:02,120
building industry, this is sort
of a newer concept to them.

988
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,360
But the information is out there
and the people are out there.

989
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:07,640
And once you start down the
rabbit hole, you'll find like

990
00:56:07,640 --> 00:56:09,480
minded people who are also
interested in it.

991
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:17,520
And there's a great joy from
changing your circumstances and

992
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,000
taking control of what you can
control.

993
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:21,640
And one of them is where you
live.

994
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:25,320
And you know, when you sit down
at the end of a busy day or you

995
00:56:25,320 --> 00:56:28,760
spend time with family on a
Sunday or whatever it is, if you

996
00:56:28,760 --> 00:56:32,520
can do it in a place that you
know is supporting your health,

997
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:35,600
that's a wonderful, wonderful
place to be.

998
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,680
Coming from someone who's lived
in all different environments,

999
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:44,560
like the pace of mind and the
joy from being in a healthy

1000
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:50,080
environment, in a healthy built
environment is amazing.

1001
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,560
It's amazing.
And that's what it's all about.

1002
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,800
It's Peace of Mind.
Yeah, yeah.

1003
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,360
Like not having that stress of
the unknowns about, you know,

1004
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:05,400
the mold or whatever it is, like
knowing that you've optimized

1005
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:08,560
your environment and you've done
what you can control is an

1006
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:11,720
amazing it's worth the worth the
hassle of going through the

1007
00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:14,800
whole process.
Yeah, I think, I think the

1008
00:57:14,800 --> 00:57:18,600
ultimate goal for me personally,
it's just it's something I've

1009
00:57:19,080 --> 00:57:20,640
sort of focused on a lot in my
life.

1010
00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,280
It's just simply Peace of Mind
emotionally, physically, all of

1011
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,960
these dots in a, you know,
Jackson a row and just that's

1012
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:29,800
the goal.
Whether or not we achieve it or

1013
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:32,920
not is another thing, but that
is always the end goal.

1014
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,920
Thank you so much, Tony.
I really appreciate you taking

1015
00:57:37,920 --> 00:57:40,200
the time to share your
experience with me.

1016
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:42,880
You're very welcome.
Thank you for the opportunity to

1017
00:57:43,160 --> 00:57:47,520
share it.
That is all for today.

1018
00:57:47,520 --> 00:57:50,640
Thanks so much for tuning in.
There will be another episode on

1019
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:53,120
a fortnight, so if you would
like to listen into the types of

1020
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:56,080
conversations that I have all
the time, please subscribe on

1021
00:57:56,080 --> 00:57:58,920
your chosen platform.
Write the show, leave a comment,

1022
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,040
whatever you like, share with
your friends and family.

1023
00:58:01,280 --> 00:58:03,920
I'd love for you to spread the
word about the building soology

1024
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,160
potty.
There's a link in the episode

1025
00:58:06,160 --> 00:58:08,920
description where you can head
to a landing page and there are

1026
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,400
some show notes there with
relevant links and a full

1027
00:58:11,400 --> 00:58:14,720
transcript of the show as well,
and also links to my socials.

1028
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,280
So if you're not already, I'd
love for you to follow along

1029
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,840
there too as I share lots of
building science and building

1030
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:22,400
biology tips.
There's also a contact page

1031
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:25,040
where you can send me an e-mail
or even a voice message.

1032
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,440
So if you've got questions or
suggestions or guest ideas, I'd

1033
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,240
love to hear from you.
I want to know what you want to

1034
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:32,880
know, so please get in touch
with me.

1035
00:58:33,280 --> 00:58:35,520
Thanks again.
I'll be back in two weeks, so

1036
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:37,480
until then, happy healthy
building.