Pilots Getting High? Why Dropping Marijuana to Schedule 3 Puts Public Safety at Risk

Voiceover00:00:01

The addiction podcast Point of no return.

Joanie Sigal00:00:07

Joe McGuire, thank you for talking to us today. You have not only a personal reason for wanting to educate us on marijuana, but you also have a different take on the whole subject.Tell us about you. I mean, what's your background? You're an expert in this area.

Jo McGuire00:00:26

Well, thank you, Joni. I am the executive director for the National Drug and Alcohol Screening Association.I take a little breath when I say that because it's a mouthful, but we are a membership association for those who are in the workplace drug testing space.So whether that, you know, it could be the person that is collecting the drug test, the labs, the medical review officers who verify the results, the whole scope to include the employers.So we've been around for about a decade now and our job is to really help employers in the workspace to understand safety and their responsibility to safety. So I myself started in this industry completely unintentionally, several years ago. I was actually in school safety and I really love school safety.But it was a grant funded program and the grant funds dried up when we had an economic downturn. So I floated my resume out to my board members and one of them said, you know, I love all the prevention work you do. Come do it for me.I was super happy because she lived in my town and I didn't have to commute up to Denver from Colorado Springs. And I will never forget this.Like, I had been on the job for a week, you know, or so, and she walked in my office and she goes, so when are you going to start doing the drug tests? I really thought I was just going to be the educator. And then I realized, oh, yeah, that's a part of it.But what I learned in that role was that we have the ability to change people's lives by treating them with dignity, respect and compassion and helping get some people on the path to recovery in their journey. And that was particularly important to me. I just fell in love with what this entire industry does to protect public safety.I saw a need for a membership association that advocates.I saw that this was coming with all of the changing marijuana laws and we tried a few different ways to make that happen and then finally realized we're going to have to have an association just dedicated to this. So some dear colleagues of mine in the industry and I got together and we formed in DA and now we the largest in the United States, even the world.We are known in Washington D.C. as advocates for safety. And there are several projects we're working on to make sure safety is protected. With Federal Schedule 3 marijuana.

Joanie Sigal00:03:04

I think that this is a different perspective for a lot of people. You know, maybe they have a loved one who's suffering from addiction or they've been through it themselves.But the whole idea of addiction or substance use disorder as it applies to safety in the workplace is not necessarily something that we've talked about before. And yet it's absolutely vital that we talk about it because it affects everybody no matter where you are.

Jo McGuire00:03:38

And you know, there's a lot of people in the kind of the big marijuana arena, if you, if you want to call it that, or the marijuana commercialization side, that they really hate workplace drug testing.They feel it's a violation of rights and they really, they, in my opinion, are very threatened by the workplace drug test stating that it violates their right to use responsibly.My counterpoint to that is always show me the responsible user, because the person that can use responsibly and not come to work under the influence, do their job safely and effectively, go home at the end of the day safely to their family, and repeat that again through the entire work schedule, that's not who we're looking for.

Joanie Sigal00:04:27

Right.

Jo McGuire00:04:28

You know that they're not on our radar and that's not what this is about. However, that's not who fails the drug test.

Joanie Sigal00:04:34

Right, Exactly.

Jo McGuire00:04:35

It's not, I'm sorry, you know, it's the people who over consume or are using inappropriately. Drug testing is a lifestyle test to see who is making this a habit.And typically you'll find that work performance is impacted in some way, shape or form.And you know, I'm also a massive proponent and very involved in recovery friendly workplaces and those initiatives that are spreading across our country, which I'm thrilled to see, but the two are not mutually exclusive. Right. This all goes hand in hand.

Joanie Sigal00:05:10

Right. And you know, you may listener, you may think, well, what difference does it make if my waiter at a restaurant is smoking marijuana?Well, how does that matter? Or the guy at the convenience store checking me out, why does that affect me?And maybe it doesn't really affect you, but tell us about some of the industries where it definitely would affect you.

Jo McGuire00:05:35

Well, you bring up a really good point, Joni, because hospitality has a tendency to be very low on the scale of those who enforce a safety policy. And yet I've been telling the story lately that recently I pulled up to a favorite donut shop to bring some donuts to my grandkids.And the young person on the intercom when I was trying to place My order at the drive through was unintelligible, and I tried several times. And I'm like, I'm going to pull up because I don't know what you're saying. I pulled up and.And he opened the window, and he was clearly under the influence and really just couldn't even hold it together for a basic conversation. I said, can I speak with your manager? The manager, probably around the same age, they were very, very young.Came up, had the giggles, the marijuana just wafted out of the window.

Joanie Sigal00:06:29

Oh, my gosh.

Jo McGuire00:06:30

And I said, oh, okay, we. We have a problem here. And I said, you know, you guys, I'm not going to place an order today because you're clearly using.I don't know if you're using on site or, or out in the, you know, backfield, but whatever's happening, I'm going to ask you to consider that you're working with those fryers. And please be careful and cautious. It's not safe behavior. I hope you'll make better choices. And I left.So we think, you know, does it matter if they're at a fast food joint? There's fryers. There's, you know, there's things. They can still get hurt. You're right.You know, and turning customers away, putting people and themselves and others at risk. So I hear all the time, how is safety sensitive defined? Well, first of all, how is security sensitive defined as well as safety sensitive?But show me the position that does not need to be safe at work.Another example I give is a catalog company called me one day and said, we have a receptionist who is falling out of her chair and she's slurring her speech. We need to bring her in for a test for cause. Does your receptionist need to be considered safety sensitive? No.But do you want her falling out of the chair? No. So sometimes I think we don't really think about how people can hurt themselves or hurt others. And it's every.It's every employer's responsibility to have safe and fair hiring and employment practices. So that's where I come from on the issue.

Joanie Sigal00:08:02

You make a very good point.I was thinking about some of the information I looked at when you were talking about, well, let's talk about bus drivers or airplane pilots or even airplane mechanics and technicians. I was thinking more of that, but you make a very good point. My son is not an addict.He doesn't use, but he runs big machines because he has a mailhouse. And I worry when he hasn't had a good night's sleep because you Know, just being tired can possibly cause an accident with something like that.And I can't even imagine someone who's using, trying to use those big machines and the possibility of them injuring themselves and somebody else. It's like, I get it, it's, it's not something we think about. We just don't, you know.

Voiceover00:08:54

Exactly. And I'm glad you mentioned the employees that are under the Department of Transportation safety program.These are vital roles in our nation's highways and byways, waterways, airways, and they are under a mandatory drug testing program and have been since the Reagan era.And there's a whole set of federal government testing program which is part of my job is to help sort of navigate and make sure people are properly trained to operate within the scope of that body of law.But that that whole entire testing program which for decades has stood the test of time in protecting public safety, all of those roles you mentioned, it is at risk of not being able to test for THC with the Schedule 3 rollout of marijuana. And we are working right now to try to get a safety carve out to protect testing for THC in those roles.And something that's very interesting to me, when Colorado legalized adult use marijuana in 2012, which became effective in 2013, I was on the governor's task force to help implement the regs. And my role was to make sure employers rights were protected. And it was made very clear. Colorado was solid on employers rights.There was some pushback, some folks didn't like that. But at the end of the day they said, you guys can go ahead and make this decision, we'll get it overturned in lawsuits in the future.Because outside of the Omnibus Transportation act, we think the employee's right to use marijuana supersedes an employer's right to enforce a drug free workplace. That is their thinking. But the wording that interested me was the Omnibus Transportation act should be protected.So we all agreed in 2013 that pilots, school bus drivers, everyone you mentioned should be, you know, they shouldn't be using marijuana. Well now here we are 13 years later and that's not how everyone thinks.I mean I have been told straight up in Washington D.C. in, in one of our representatives office, they should be able to smoke before they get on the plane as long as they're not high. Those were the exact words. And I was like, what does that even mean?

Joanie Sigal00:11:13

That's like, I can't think of an analogy. That's just like ridiculous.

Jo McGuire00:11:17

I know. So why do you smoke if it's.

Joanie Sigal00:11:18

Not to get high?

Jo McGuire00:11:19

Yeah. Exactly.So to my thinking, I mean, now, look, I'm not saying everyone who uses marijuana thinks that, but there is like a contingency there and they are in powerful positions and they have a voice. So to me, I take a step back and go, have we lost all reason when it comes to what is fair, what is safe, what is responsible? And.And it pushes me into advocacy because I don't see common sense partners coming to the table going, yeah, pilots are off the table. Right? That's not even a considerable. But I'm not seeing that. And it's very concerning.

Joanie Sigal00:11:52

Well, pilots are school bus drivers or regular bus drivers or subway drivers. Anybody that has, through their job, have a lot of people who are relying on the awareness and ability of that person.They should all be carved out of any of this. And no, they should not be allowed to smoke marijuana before they go into the cockpit of the, the plane. That is.Why is that so logical to you and me and not logical to others? I'm like, anyway, you know, I guess it's the money.

Jo McGuire00:12:24

It is the money. And you're right. I mean, the money is the answer.And ultimately, what I see is that the loyalty to marijuana as whether it's a plant, a substance, a drug, however you're going to classify it, in whatever form it's in, the loyalty to marijuana has become like rabid. It's almost like a religious belief and not a common sense approach.And that's what really concerns me, because when we're talking about people developing dependence with higher potency products these days, with getting CBD products that contain thc, losing their jobs because they fail a drug test over it, dependencies can be developed, and then we have to deal with those realities. How in the world are we able to create common sense public policies when we're just ignoring the fact that common sense has gone out the window?And these are extremes.Even rescheduling to schedule three and putting that on the same level as codeine and saying that this plant is now going to be viewed as a prescription medication. That's not how we do medicine.

Joanie Sigal00:13:41

No, I know. And we had Philip Drummond here pointing out there are five requisites for medicine and it doesn't fit.

Jo McGuire00:13:49

So, yeah, I appreciate you guys bringing these things to light because I think your average everyday person maybe does not always like all of the larger scope of how these things are intricately woven together.And so these are good conversations to have, and we are trying to have them in Washington, D.C. to say, you know, protect THC drug testing for Workers. And even at that, we might get something that's limited only to Department of Transportation.But what about all of the federal workers that are people that carry firearms like CIA, FBI, Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, US Forestry? Those are people that we should consider not, you know, being under the influence while they're at work.

Joanie Sigal00:14:33

Well, and I would ask the President, do you want your Secret Service to be high on Air Force One? I mean, yeah, you're a pilot on Air Force One. I can't believe that that would be acceptable to him. I can't.

Jo McGuire00:14:47

I can't either. And I know that he is an anti drug, you know, like he cares about drug abuse and recovery. But on this issue, it is very strange. And I. And I just.I don't know that we're putting all the pieces of the puzzle together.

Joanie Sigal00:15:04

Well, and do me a favor. In layman's terms, what is this? Tell us, what's the difference between Schedule 1 and Schedule 3? I've had Dr. Drummond talking about a lot of the.Not really scientific, but more on the scientific end. Make it just plain down and dirty. Why do we not want this?

Jo McGuire00:15:25

Well, So a Schedule 1 drug means that you don't have any safe dosing ability. So you can't say in certain doses, this drug acts the same way on the majority of the population.Therefore, you can get your little pharmacy printout that says Do's and don'ts, Right?

Joanie Sigal00:15:45

So what's an example of a Schedule 1?

Jo McGuire00:15:48

So Schedule 1 is usually like heroin. Okay. Something like that. Ecstasy, peyote, you know, things that. That are really consumed, you know, outside of a.Outside of a prescriptive environment, which a doctor would say, this is safe to use and how. And how much. Right.And marijuana fits in that category, simply because in all of the scientific studies that have been conducted for decades, and believe me, people say there's been no research. That is not true. There are thousands of pieces of research that show us that we can't narrow this down with consistency.It's a highly unstable drug that affects a lot of people in a lot of different ways.And I honestly think, Joni, that if we weren't dealing with the expanded concentrates and potencies, maybe we could have figured this out if it was like, you know, 5 nanograms of THC or something, like if we would have gotten it down to a smaller level. But now that we're at these extreme potencies, to me, it's just getting harder and harder to figure out how these things act. Right.But a Schedule 3 drug, it's it's something with a moderate, with a moderate to low potential for physical and psychological dependence. And the abuse is less than Schedule 1. So it's, it's lesser than Schedule 1, but greater than Schedule 4.So this is like coding, Tylenol coding and anabolic steroids.

Joanie Sigal00:17:21

Right.

Jo McGuire00:17:22

So we're putting it in this category. Like we're not even putting it in a, in a Schedule 2 where it would be more monitored and overseen like by the FDA and get some prescriptive amounts.We're basically saying like, I mean, tongue off. Coding isn't exactly over the counter, but we're literally making this over the counter through the state dispensary systems.And it's not going to be controlled.

Joanie Sigal00:17:46

It's not regulated or controlled. There's no regulation on the amount of thc. That's. Yeah, there's that so wrong.

Jo McGuire00:17:54

Yeah, it's just very odd that we would say here's this medicine, go figure it out. Ask your bud tender, let them tell you what works or doesn't work and, and then you don't have.One of the greatest concerns really, truly is we don't have the information to the public on contraindicators of other drugs and the risks involved. So cannabis based medicines can have an impact on the liver, a high impact on the liver.They can prohibit or stop or lessen other drugs from working effectively like blood clotting drugs.Like there's things that are extremely important to people who have had surgeries and, and things like that, that if they use cannabis it can make it so their other medications don't work properly and people don't know that and they just think it's natural, it's herbal. So it, it doesn't matter. It does matter.And without that FDA oversight just tossing it out to the state dispensaries, some of them have some warnings like, you know, don't use the waxes and dabs if you're not experienced. But not all of them do. You know, some of them have warnings for pregnant moms. Not all of them do.It's just a mishmash that we're going to throw out to the states and I don't know, it's kind of a crazy time. I'm wondering where we'll be this time next year having a conversation about what in the world's going on.

Joanie Sigal00:19:20

Yeah, seriously, what's the next step and what can listeners do about this?

Jo McGuire00:19:27

Listen, any representative or senator in Washington D.C. that is on the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee or, or Appropriations, we need to let them know that the safety carve out for continued testing for THC is absolutely needed. It's needed now and it's. They need to understand and hear that citizens want transportation testing protected. We just can't let that go.I mean, we'll have to see how this rolls out with those outside of Department of Transportation as time goes. But we have to let our policymakers know that this is vital, it's critical.And I don't care how you feel about marijuana, if you want those, those safety sensitive roles protected, as we discussed, you got to let these people know. They have to hear us. Right now. That is the single most important thing that we can do.

Joanie Sigal00:20:22

Very good.And then what I would ask you to do is if you could send me that in writing, just the language and I'll put that in the show notes for this, this episode so that people can write to the.And I'll put a link in so how they can find out who their senator is and how they're represented, who their representative is and write to them about this because it's just super important. And I, I know for me, I'm always like, well, what can I do about it? I gotta do something about it.And I have an idea that we have listeners who maybe have a child that they've lost to marijuana and the psychosis that marijuana, marijuana causes. And I think we can get them on board with this.So if you would be so kind as to give me some language that we can use listeners, I will put it in the show notes and you should be sure and write to your representative and your senator because this is just like, I'm like, it's such a no brainer that we wouldn't carve out airplane pilots and bus drivers. I mean, we should, we shouldn't do it at all. But I know that there's such a push for it that, you know, probably going to get approved.But if we can at least put in a carve out, maybe that'll raise somebody's awareness that not everybody should do this.

Jo McGuire00:21:36

Exactly.And I'm finding myself a little blown away that for, you know, 15 years we saw workplace drug testing eliminate all kinds of needless accident and injuries because we saw those things drop through Department of Labor statistics for 15 years. And then when legalization started, I mean we just saw this decline and then we saw a steep increase. It's going back up at highest rates ever.And I just, it breaks my heart because we're not teaching people responsible behaviors and boundaries. And I don't care where you work your fellow citizens deserve you to be at your best. You deserve to be at your best.Your employer deserves you to be at your best. And ultimately we want everyone to have their best lives. So thank you so much for this opportunity. I will send that to you. Thank you. Yeah.We're hoping we can make a difference on this issue.

Joanie Sigal00:22:34

Absolutely. And I really appreciate all that you're doing and wish your daughter luck with her podcast because we cannot have too few.There's no limit to the amount of podcasts that can be done to talk about addiction with young people. And, you know, and I just wish you all kinds of luck and we will see what we can do to get some action going.

Jo McGuire00:22:55

Thank you so much.

Voiceover00:23:02

You have been listening to the Addiction Podcast point of no return.For more information, reach out to us on Facebook or go to www.the addiction podcast. Our email is the addictionpodcast at Yahoo. Com.