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Dr. Tony Dice, Navy SEAL, firefighter, paramedic, therapist, author, and CEO of Bishop & Dice Defense, joins us to share one of the most powerful recovery stories we’ve ever featured. Tony describes how his early desire to “be a hero” led him into fire rescue, ambulance work, and ultimately the Navy SEAL teams — where camaraderie, trauma, and culture normalized heavy drinking and emotional suppression.
Tony explains how addiction took root long before he realized it, escalating from alcohol to cocaine, ecstasy, and eventually crystal meth. He describes the moment his addiction broke him: being unable to leave a room for hours to pick up his young son during a swine flu exposure. That moment led him to treatment at the Farley Center, where he embraced 12‑Step recovery and rebuilt his life.
Tony breaks down why 12‑Step recovery works, connecting each step to established therapeutic models:
- Steps 1–3 → Stages of Change
- Steps 4–5 → Narrative Therapy
- Steps 6–9 → Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)
- Steps 10–12 → Existential Therapy
This framework became Tony’s Holistic Change Model (HC‑Mod), now used to help therapists understand the deep psychological transformation that occurs in 12‑Step programs.
Tony also discusses:
- Why high‑performers (military, first responders, law enforcement) often hide their struggles
- How adrenaline, trauma, and emotional compulsivity fuel addiction
- Why “competent heroes” are often the last to seek help
- How Bishop & Dice Defense builds trust with agencies before introducing mental health support
- Why his book After the Trident is helping veterans and first responders heal
Tony’s story is a testament to resilience, service, and the power of recovery — and a reminder that even our strongest heroes need help too. His bio is impressive.
Tony is a nationally recognized counselor, presenter, and addiction specialist. He developed the Holistic Change Model (HC‑Mod), which maps the 12‑Step recovery process to established therapeutic frameworks, helping clinicians better support clients in recovery. He has presented at national and international conferences, published in the field of mental health, and teaches addiction and human services at Old Dominion University.
His book, After the Trident: A Navy SEAL’s Battle with Secret Shame and Addiction, chronicles his journey from service‑related trauma and addiction to recovery and purpose.
Voiceover
The addiction podcast. Point of no return,.
Joanie Sigal
Dr. Tony Dice. And I'm gonna just call you Tony. Thank you for being our podcast again.You have so much to share with our audience because you're a veteran, and, you know, you were a Navy Seal and you have your own history of addiction, and I would imagine you suffered some somewhat from PTSD yourself, and you just. You have a lot of perspective to bring to our audience.But start off with just telling us a little bit about yourself and why we're even talking to you.
Dr. Tony Dice
Oh, gosh, yes. Thank you again for having me on this platform.And I do want to start off with, you know, somehow I have found my way back to a life of service, and anything I can do to reach one more person, I am going to do it. So here we go.
Joanie Sigal
And we love you for that.
Dr. Tony Dice
Here we go. Yes, I'm Dr. Dice today. But that wasn't always the case. Back in the day, I always wanted to be a hero.And so early on, my first real hero job was working for a fire department, and I got to go extricate people out of vehicles and be there when someone needed me most. And I did that for two years, transitioned to an ambulance service, where you go code three to the call and then code three back to the hospital.It was, like, twice the fun. And that was, to me, was feeding.You know, you'd lay there in the bunk house at night, and on someone's very worst day of their life, they're calling me and my partner to come and save the day. And, gosh, that was there something in me that needed to be needed that bad.I was getting ready to transfer to law enforcement because those guys had faster cars and they got to kick indoors and just be, like, the action figure that all the cool toys. And my. My chief pulls me up and goes, dice, what are you doing? Because I did two years.Two years, and I was going to try transition again, and I said, I'm just trying to be all I can be, you know, what's top of the food chain. And he said, a Navy Seal. And that was. That was it for me.I had never looked into being a Navy SEAL before that I didn't have the posters, didn't see the movies, but I wanted to do this, you know, So I went down to the recruiter, signed me up, went off to training. I made it through. I made it through buds. I had. I made it hard on myself like I always do, but I went through Hell week twice.But I finally got through buds and I got to the SEAL teams.
Joanie Sigal
BUDS is what?
Dr. Tony Dice
BUDS is basic underwater demolition.
Joanie Sigal
Okay, good.
Dr. Tony Dice
It's the school that the seals go to. It's like the. The gatekeeper, if you want to be a seal.
Joanie Sigal
Yep, I get it. All you had to say was what it stood for.
Dr. Tony Dice
And I was like, I know. Okay, so we get through that. You get there, get through that, and I get.Let me tell you something about the Navy and to all the military servicemen out there might be able to relate to this. I knew how to drink, you know, with my brothers and sisters at the fire rescue and in the ambulance service. But the Navy took it serious.It was like turning pro in my drinking career. It was. I mean, it was something of honor, you know, I. You were proud how you held your drink. You know, it was a.To me, it was presented as the Swiss army knife of dealing with emotion. Like, if you were having the worst day of your life, I could get a bottle and I could sit down with you and we'd get through it together.If your dog died, I pull out a flask. Here you go. And no matter what emotion you are currently experiencing, me and a bottle could get through it.I mean, so much so if I had animosity with someone in my platoon, we're just button heads. Our platoon chief would say, you two go get a drink together and sort this out. So it was a fix all to everything. I carried a flask in my.In my medical kit because it was part of my emergency response to situations. So my relationship with alcohol was like solidified in the Navy.
Joanie Sigal
Interesting.
Dr. Tony Dice
Yeah. You know, and the gosh, the camaraderie of the teams, you know, it's like they call it the brotherhood. And you guys are tight.You go out together, you come back and you party together and you drink together. And it was meaningful.
Joanie Sigal
And, well, you faced death together, right?
Dr. Tony Dice
Yeah, I mean, that's.
Joanie Sigal
I mean, basic underwater demolition.
Dr. Tony Dice
Yeah, it's intense. And that intensity, you know, just kind of is the weld between you.
Joanie Sigal
If I have like a really tough week with my grandchildren, please, people don't judge me. I kind of feel I like a glass of wine. But you guys are facing death, not only your own, but others that you're responsible for. And.Yeah, I can see that. Yeah.
Dr. Tony Dice
And this was pre 9 11, so this is pre war SEAL teams, which was a boring time to be a SEAL.I mean, you're training like, I'm sharpening my knife over and over again, waiting for something to happen, and nothing's happening, you know, and that leads to. For someone like Me getting into mischief, you know, drinking a lot, partying, experimenting with coke.For me, back then, you know, this is my twisted logic back then was that, oh, I don't want to get too drunk. I better do some coke to sober up. That way, yeah, I don't get a dui. You know, those are the way my mind went back then.And that maybe doesn't like it when you do drugs. I. And everyone knows. And so I'm a smart guy. My spider sense is tingling. My reenlistment is coming up. And this is what blows me away.Because in retrospect, I can't believe addiction had me, even back then, to this extent.I had to make a decision, you know, keep drinking the way I'm drinking and risk getting in more in trouble in the military or get out so I can drink the way I want to drink. There was no third option of pull back on the drinking and stay in the military. So, I mean, this blows me away.The hardest thing I've ever done was make it into the SEAL teams. You know, the thing I was most proud of in that moment was being a Navy seal. The people I loved most in the world were my brothers in the SEAL teams.But I was willing to trade that so I could party, so I could drink, so I could. And I did that with. I mean, I did it thinking that I was making a smart decision so I wouldn't get in trouble. Oh, I mean, it's crazy.They talk about, you know, alcohol takes things from you, and it's. No, you give them freely in exchange for your alcohol.
Joanie Sigal
Yep.
Dr. Tony Dice
So I get out and, you know, we were.You and I were chatting earlier about, you know, people who serve the military, you know, are love freedom and how they give up most of their freedom so that they can serve well on the day that you get out, you get all those freedoms back. And for me, I didn't realize it, but the military is almost like the safety cage placed around me. And I could highly trained guy going, yeah.And when I got out of military, it was like releasing this highly trained animal into the wild. Oh, my gosh. Life without borders or any kind of guardrails. I just. I could drink how I always wanted to drink.I could use any substance I wanted and no one had. I'd be accountable to anyone. That was a recipe for me just going. And I went. I went hard.And the progression and addiction, as we know, you know, I went, had my. My alcohol was my. My foundation.And upon that, I built a nice, strong coke addiction that then quickly Escalated into like ecstasy and all these other party drugs and then finally shifted into a crystal meth, which I did for many years. And man, that wears on your body.
Joanie Sigal
Well, I was going to say you're lucky to be alive. You just are.
Dr. Tony Dice
Yeah, I mean I ended up weighing 130 pounds. I'm currently 220. You know, 6213 is a thin look for me. Yes. And you know, there was a lot of talking.What's, what's, what's wrong with dice, what's going on?And to sustain my, my drug habits, I was taking these contracting gigs overseas where you know, you, they hire former special forces operators to go over and be President Karzai of Afghanistan's bodyguard. You know, you take that gig and you make a whole bunch of. And you come back so the only three months long.So it's very, it suits an addict's lifestyle very well. Right, right. And so that was going on. I was weighing 130 pounds. I got turned down for a contract because they said I looked like.Shortly thereafter I hit bottom and end up in treatment.
Joanie Sigal
It was a bottom for you. Why did you decide to quit?
Dr. Tony Dice
Well, it's a hard one, but There was the H1N1. The swine flu pandemic was going around and at that time I was married and I had a small son who was 2 years old at the time and he was in daycare.And I got a phone call from the daycare saying there's been an exposure to one of the technicians and for three hours of using and trying to get out of that room, I couldn't get out of that room. I couldn't go save my son. I remember turning off my cell phone and pushing it under the bed and just not going home for several more days.That was, I could feel like my spirit breaking. I stopped looking in the mirror. I hated who I become this realization that this was the most important thing in my life.
Joanie Sigal
Was he okay though?
Dr. Tony Dice
He was finally picked up. He was, I think he was four hours late by a mother in law who had to drive a long period of time. I mean it was, it was okay.But man, that like the damage was done and I ended up at the Farley center in Williamsburg. Shout out to the Farley Center. The therapist there saved my life. And it was, to be honest, it's timing, it's always a timing thing.I feel that I need to be in a place where I can, I can receive recovery and there needs to be a place where recovery is available. So there was this Nexus of time and opportunity. And I was open for it. Whatever they asked me to do, I would do. I got through the treatment there.I was told to get a sponsor or die. So I got a sponsor. I entered in a 12 step recovery program. Went through the steps with this, with, you know, shout out to John A.Out there, my first sponsor. And everything in my life changed. I mean, when I got through the 12 steps, I mean, there was a different man there. And I was at the time.When I got through the 12 steps, I started sponsoring other young men. And something occurred to me that, wow, I really enjoy the empathy, the authenticity of sitting down with someone and working with them. I know.And it made me remember my therapist I had at the Farley Center. And I said, that guy, dude, my whole life I've been training to be a hero.I would have turnouts and M4, all this grenades, all the stuff I needed to save the day. And that therapist came to work with a cup of coffee, and he say, helped save me from myself. I was blown away. I said, I want to be like that guy.And so I went back to school. And like any good addict, I got my associates, followed by my undergrad, then my master's and then my PhD.Well, in that process, on my five year mark of recovery. So five years to the day of me getting clean and sober, I went back to the Farley center and I asked for a job, and they hired me. Yes.And I got to work where I got clean at. I got to work under my therapist. He kind of took me under his wing and showed me the ropes, and that was. It was transformative. I got to work.
Dr. Tony Dice
So when did you get clean and sober?
Joanie Sigal
I got July 29, 2010, last year.
Joanie Sigal
Okay, so then 2015, you went back to the Farley Center.
Dr. Tony Dice
Okay, went back to the Farley Center. And there was like a magical moment there.I had worked for almost a whole year under the tutelage of the therapist there, and he had asked if I could cover his group while he went on vacation. And so I'm sitting in his chair with his clipboard, and I'm watching addicts and alcoholics kind of feed into the group therapy room.And this young man comes and sits in the chair that I had sat in, you know, almost six years earlier. And I'm overwhelmed with this wave of emotion. Like, wow. Everything in my life had to happen the way it had to happen for me to be here for that guy.I mean, that was the closest I could ever come to feeling that, like, this is A calling. I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. I knew this was. This was my. Just my job. This is what I'm going to do. I got to get the word out to everyone.I went back after my PhD. Now this is where it gets crazy because I'm in this process of trying to figure out, how did this program work so well, how did I shift so much?When I'm in my PhD program, we do a lot of work on new therapies emerging. And I began turning that gaze at 12 step recovery. I said, let's look at this. Let's break it down to its basics.And in doing so, I mean, to me, this is profound.Steps 1, 2, and 3 in a 12 step recovery program is the same thing as stages of change, the way in which therapists communicate to each other if someone's ready to receive recovery.Steps four and five is the same as narrative therapy, the way in which someone looks at their past life and looks from a different perspective and kind of finds empathy for their story again. Steps 6, 7, 8, 9, those are all acts of cognitive behavioral therapy. Changing one's behavior, repairing relationships, all of that.And then the final three steps, 10, 11, and 12, that's straight up existential therapy. Finding one's purpose, maintenance, and a sense of direction in their lives. So what we have then are four therapeutic interventions.Stages of change, followed by narrative therapy, cbt, and then existential why this was important.We have therapists across the nation who think that 12 step recovery programs are alcoholics talking about drinking and not fully understanding this recovery arc that takes place in 12 step recovery. And by giving those therapists the names of the theories that the patient is following, they can better support them.So I called this model the holistic change model. And it was a way for me to explain to therapists, hey, this is what's going on under the hood of 12 step recovery.
Joanie Sigal
I think that's brilliant. I'm feeling like I'm hearing it for the first time.
Dr. Tony Dice
No, we didn't have time last time.
Joanie Sigal
I think, like you say, the 12 step. Yeah, it's a bunch of alcoholics getting together and saying, hi, I'm Joe and I'm an alcoholic. Well, there's a bit more to it than that, isn't there?
Dr. Tony Dice
And I started presenting at regional conferences and national conferences. I even got invited to the International association of Counseling's global summit in Italy and got to present on this.Just trying to get this word out as wide as possible that there, this is an important program that there's a lot more going on and we need to give it more credit than it's, than currently being given.
Joanie Sigal
Awesome. That's amazing. Now I'm looking at the logo behind your head. What does Bishop and Dice have to do with what you're telling me?
Dr. Tony Dice
Okay, so Bishop and Dice Defense is a company that, you know, Scott, Bishop and myself started about five years ago. And our goal was this.There are people out there among us who are our heroes, our law enforcement, our first responders, veterans, people that are out there, you know, devoting themselves to a life of service. Coincidentally, these people are also most resilient to getting help themselves. And so it's an interesting conundrum.They find themselves actually be so resistant to getting help that all the wheels will fall off before they actually find a place where they can receive the help. Much like I did. I had to lose everything and get to a point where I was open to it. Well, we devised a strategy.Bishop and Dice Defense will go into a law enforcement agency or a fire rescue agency, or go into a VA center and we will talk shop. We will, we supply uniform supplies, ammunition, training, and for a whole year we'll be the go to guys will tell the stories.We'll be able to become someone that you can talk to. And on year two, we bring in the mental health services. We offer anonymous, anonymous groups where they can check in and ask questions.We offer a place where they can begin to see like, okay, there's this check engine light been going off in my head for a while. Maybe I can ask this guy a question.
Joanie Sigal
I think the whole premise is brilliant because it's one thing to go in and say, hi, I'm your mental health therapist and I'm going to tell you how to fix what's wrong versus already establishing a help flow, if you will, to these people and serving them so that now that you're already trusted because you're already, you're helping them do their job and then you're going to actually help them do their job better.
Joanie Sigal
That's true. And also dispel many of their fears about what getting help looks like.It's not a career ending move, you know, it's actually one that there's, there's ways to remain on the front line, but don't wait too late. And that's what we do. We wait till so much happens that major steps need to be taken to kind of put you back together.
Joanie Sigal
Right. I think it's a brilliant model. I really do. Does Scott have the same history that you have was he.
Dr. Tony Dice
Scott is a contracting genius. He's been in this field. He knows how to talk the shop talk that, you know, that I got training, all that. So he's actually the brains. I'm just the.
Joanie Sigal
You're the pretty face.
Dr. Tony Dice
The pretty face. So that was the first phase of our operation.
Joanie Sigal
Okay.
Dr. Tony Dice
Was to get in recovery. We learned that our story can be our greatest asset in helping others.And so basically, for those of us, for those in recovery out there, this will make sense. I took my fourth step, which is supposed to be between you and your sponsor. And it's very sensitive. It's me being so honest.And I, I wrote it down into a book. And this book called after the trident. And it's 76 experiences that I was not proud of, you know, things that I endured.So this is right off the bat, it's not your typical Navy SEAL shoot em up book. This is a book about everything that I beat myself up over.And at the end of each chapter, there's like a brief conversation of one you might have with your sponsor or mentor about that reflection. And then the little segment after that is what your therapist might say about that interaction.So what it's doing is like, you know, you might read something I wrote all about my childhood. It's like, whoa, I lied to my mom a lot too. Oh, looking back, this is how I saw myself back then.And your therapist goes, well, this is how you found comfort in chaos. And it helps you understand your story if you find pieces of mind that you could relate to.
Joanie Sigal
Yep. Yes. I think that's brilliant. And that's why we do the podcast, because we get people like you telling your story.Your story is going to resonate with a lot of people, and not just people who've been in the military, but people who've done things that they are, you know, not, not happy that they did, you know, well.
Dr. Tony Dice
And there's one more category there.There's a whole category of high performers out there because you think about people who have changed the world, very often they're unbalanced people. There's a little bit of obsessive compulsiveness tangled in. And we see this has its roots often in addiction.And that can easily manifest, most likely in the later years as alcoholism or drug addiction. But in the beginning, they're addicted to what they're doing. There's a life out of balance. So I was going to ask you.
Joanie Sigal
If you were an adrenaline junkie way back then. Yeah, I got that.
Dr. Tony Dice
You name it. If it made Me feel I wanted more of it. You know, what I was all about feeling more.
Joanie Sigal
Well, and I think the other thing, and you probably covered this as well, is it's very easy to look at the very competent EMT guy that just saved my life and say, well, he doesn't need help. Look at how competent he is. Look at how cool he is.
Dr. Tony Dice
He can handle anything.
Joanie Sigal
Yeah, he can handle anything. When oftentimes that's covering up the fact that there are things he doesn't know how to handle and he just keeps. Yep.
Dr. Tony Dice
Everyone assumes you got your shit wired. Yes. Yep. We all wear the mask.
Joanie Sigal
Well, I am super excited about your book. Say the name again. I'm assuming it's available on Amazon.
Dr. Tony Dice
It is after the Trident, A Navy SEALS battle with secret shame and addiction. Available not on Amazon. It's available now in hardcover, paperback and Kindle.But coming soon, I just got through recording the audiobook and my hat's off to anyone who's ever done this because to pronunciate all those worlds with emotion and energy, it was really, really, really hard.
Joanie Sigal
So where do people get it if they can't get it on Amazon?
Dr. Tony Dice
You said it is on Amazon or it's on Amazon. It's on Amazon now.
Joanie Sigal
After The Trident by Dr. Tony Dice. So check it out on Amazon and pretty soon you're going to get the audiobook which is good for any of you long distance drivers and all my.
Dr. Tony Dice
Social media out there. I made it so easy for you, Dr. Dice. Just, you know, search my name. I pop up everywhere. You'll see this, the shiny bald head.Click on there and you know, and see what we're cooking. We have a lot of thing irons in the fire. We're doing some outreach for the Ukrainian veterans out there.We're doing some outreach for fire rescue, law enforcement. There's a lot of ways you can help. And you know, it's funny the idea that we need to help our heroes who've done so much for us their entire lives.Here's an opportunity for us to take care of them.
Joanie Sigal
That's coming from a military family. I can, I can definitely appreciate that and that that makes my heart happy. Tony, thank you so much for everything.
Dr. Tony Dice
You're doing and this was just wonderful time.
Joanie Sigal
You know, you're welcome back anytime. We really appreciate you and what you do and you are right. We have to help our heroes.
Dr. Tony Dice
We do. Take care everyone. Take care of each other.
Voiceover
You have been listening to the addiction podcast Point of no Return.For more information, reach out to us on Facebook or go to www.theaddictionpodcast.com. Our email is the addictionpodcast@yahoo.com.